Irae T'sarran update (CotSQ)? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Irae T'sarran update (CotSQ)? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
wilcoxon
09-05-05, 11:03 PM I remember seeing a [semi?]official update of Irae T'sarran (final encounter from CotSQ) somewhere, but (as usual), now that I'm looking for it, I can't find it. I think it was in a sourcebook (FR), ettata, or Web Enhancement but I'm not positive.

I've already found the thread with player-updates for CotSQ (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=255217) but haven't found a reference to the source I remember seeing.
warlockco
09-05-05, 11:51 PM There was a Web Enhancement but it was mainly random encounters in the Underdark.
runestar
09-06-05, 08:01 AM Perhaps you mean the PGTF article about the yahrinshee prc? It suggests updating the various spellcasters who worship Kiaransalee in CoTSQ with vile feats and oriented prcs, like aforementioned class. My advice, don't, since I feel it dilutes their power too much to be much of a threat to the PCs.
Dargoth
09-06-05, 08:10 AM Ive decided to redo her as a Cleric necromancer and give her levels of the True Necromancer PrC from Libris Mortis
wilcoxon
09-06-05, 07:03 PM Perhaps you mean the PGTF article about the yahrinshee prc? It suggests updating the various spellcasters who worship Kiaransalee in CoTSQ with vile feats and oriented prcs, like aforementioned class. My advice, don't, since I feel it dilutes their power too much to be much of a threat to the PCs.

That might have been what I saw. I thought there was something similar that specifically updated Irae T'sarran using the new class(es)/feat(s)/whatever including updated spell list and the like.

Thanks for the pointer to that. I missed that section when I was recently going back through PGtF (stupid putting PrCs in two different places in one book).

I see what you mean - the Yarinshee is an interesting PrC but it means Irae loses access to 8th and 9th level cleric spells (but does gains a fair number of wizard spells) - not worth the tradeoff.
Kuje31
09-06-05, 07:07 PM Lost Empires also discusses how the events from that module played out. :)
Slime Lord
09-06-05, 11:25 PM Lost Empires also discusses how the events from that module played out. :)

Can I ask a slightly off queston? What's the difference between a necromancer and a true necromancer?
Kuje31
09-06-05, 11:47 PM Can I ask a slightly off queston? What's the difference between a necromancer and a true necromancer?

Uh? Heeheh. I guess power? I think one is a core specialist and one's a prestige specialist. I dunno really. :)
warlockco
09-07-05, 12:27 AM Can I ask a slightly off queston? What's the difference between a necromancer and a true necromancer?

True Necromancer is a 14 level PrC that you can enter at 7th level. By the time you hit 20th level, you will be a 16th level caster in both Divine and Arcane magic.
Zanan
09-07-05, 05:00 AM I see what you mean - the Yarinshee is an interesting PrC but it means Irae loses access to 8th and 9th level cleric spells (but does gains a fair number of wizard spells) - not worth the tradeoff.

Thing with the Yathrinshee is that spellcaster levels for necromantic effects stack, which it doesn't for the True Necromancer. That is, spellcaster level pre-Yathrinshee. While she may loose a spell level or two, she gains arcane spell power in abundance. I'll publish my take on her soon at the DnD-Gate, but in advance ...

I made her a Clr 3 / Nec 3 / MysT 10 / Yath 4. Thus she has the spellpower of a 15th level Cleric AND a 15th level Necromancer (8th level spells both). Her CL for necromantic spells is 18 though. Furthermore, the immunity to any death spells and effects comes in handy. :evillaugh
Dargoth
09-07-05, 08:21 PM Can I ask a slightly off queston? What's the difference between a necromancer and a true necromancer?

I assume this was directed at me

Necromancer is a Specialist wizard class found in PHB

True Necromancer is a PrC found in Libris Mortis
runestar
09-09-05, 05:05 AM Her CL for necromantic spells is 18 though.

Surely you mean 30. ;)
Zanan
09-09-05, 11:36 AM Surely you mean 30. ;)

Nono ... Mystic Theurge level do not stack with themselves. As in: each Mystic Theurge level counts as one additional caster level, even though he actually gets one in each spellcasting variety (i.e. arcane and divine) per level.
runestar
09-09-05, 11:24 PM All caster lvs stack, as per the prc desc. Thus, your arcane caster lv of 15 stacks with your divine caster lv of 15 for a final caster lv of 30 for your necromancy spells. MT lvs here are counted twice since they advance two spellcasting classes at the same time.
wilcoxon
09-12-05, 10:09 PM Hmm. I hadn't thought of using MT (personally, I don't like it as it is imnsho underpowered at low levels and overpowered at high levels - then again, I'm the DM this time :schemes: ). The MT/Yathrinshee version of Irae is definitely worth at least considering.
wilcoxon
09-12-05, 11:02 PM Ouch! I just did some more reading and am definitely going to do a workup of Irae as MT/Yathrinshee using spells (and domains?) from Libris Mortis. That just looks too evil not to try working up. :evillaugh:
Zanan
09-13-05, 04:16 AM All caster lvs stack, as per the prc desc. Thus, your arcane caster lv of 15 stacks with your divine caster lv of 15 for a final caster lv of 30 for your necromancy spells. MT lvs here are counted twice since they advance two spellcasting classes at the same time.

The same question arose a wee while back and methinks one of the designers (in FAQ, Errata or board discussion) said something about this non-stacking of the Mystic Theurge. While I see your point, I would put in that the Necromancer ability of the Yathrinshee specificly aims at full class levels (see example) and caster levels gained by the Yathrinshee. Anyway, for the time being, I take each level of the Mystic Theurge as one caster level gained, as it is with normal spells. Maybe one of the designers or custserv can clear this up.
wilcoxon
09-13-05, 11:20 AM The same question arose a wee while back and methinks one of the designers (in FAQ, Errata or board discussion) said something about this non-stacking of the Mystic Theurge. While I see your point, I would put in that the Necromancer ability of the Yathrinshee specificly aims at full class levels (see example) and caster levels gained by the Yathrinshee. Anyway, for the time being, I take each level of the Mystic Theurge as one caster level gained, as it is with normal spells. Maybe one of the designers or custserv can clear this up.

I'd have to say that the Yathrinshee is pretty explicit. All her spellcaster levels stack. The example uses Cleric and Wizard, but has the Yathrinshee levels count twice (cleric 5, wizard 3, yathrinshee 3 (+2 caster in each) yields divine 7, arcane 5, and necro 12 (5+3+2+2)). Therefore, the same would apply to Mystic Thurge levels. Also, just checked, no official errata on Yathrinshee.
Slime Lord
09-13-05, 11:31 AM I'd have to say that the Yathrinshee is pretty explicit. All her spellcaster levels stack. The example uses Cleric and Wizard, but has the Yathrinshee levels count twice (cleric 5, wizard 3, yathrinshee 3 (+2 caster in each) yields divine 7, arcane 5, and necro 12 (5+3+2+2)). Therefore, the same would apply to Mystic Thurge levels. Also, just checked, no official errata on Yathrinshee.

I just want to see that Yathrinshee sounds too much like Shrinshee to me and I keep thinking of Shrinshee instead of Yathrinshee...I know, off topic, but I keep watching this topic... :D
wilcoxon
09-13-05, 12:01 PM Thoughts on granting Kiaransalee the Deathbound domain (from Libris Mortis)? It seems to fit her portfolio, but I figured I'd check and see what others thought about it.
Razz
09-13-05, 12:11 PM Maybe one of the designers or custserv can clear this up.

The designers are better equipped to clear that up. After many emails to Cust. Service with a myriad of questions, their answers are something a 5-year old would tell me. All of the emails have just been them throwing the question back at me in answer form and filled with a bunch of "maybe"s and "I'm not sure"s and it was just sickening to see how D&D illiterate those people at cust service are. I have never received one straight answer from them.

My advice, don't rely on emailing Cust. Service with rules questions. They're paid, it seems, to give the weakest of replies I've ever seen. :mad:
Razz
09-13-05, 12:13 PM Thoughts on granting Kiaransalee the Deathbound domain (from Libris Mortis)? It seems to fit her portfolio, but I figured I'd check and see what others thought about it.

I have typed a list of every WotC published domain (including the ones from Dragon), minus the ones from Eberron, and I have been slowly checking off each one for each FR deity. Deathbound was one I definitely gave to Kiaransalee.

Interesting thing is, the more domains they keep publishing, the more domains each deity has. One of the FR deities has like 8 so far.
Slime Lord
09-13-05, 12:40 PM I have typed a list of every WotC published domain (including the ones from Dragon), minus the ones from Eberron, and I have been slowly checking off each one for each FR deity. Deathbound was one I definitely gave to Kiaransalee.

Interesting thing is, the more domains they keep publishing, the more domains each deity has. One of the FR deities has like 8 so far.

Deathbound just sounds like a hideious, evil domain. Reguardless, knowing Big K some what, it fits her ;) lol.
Zanan
09-13-05, 05:28 PM The designers are better equipped to clear that up. After many emails to Cust. Service with a myriad of questions, their answers are something a 5-year old would tell me. All of the emails have just been them throwing the question back at me in answer form and filled with a bunch of "maybe"s and "I'm not sure"s and it was just sickening to see how D&D illiterate those people at cust service are. I have never received one straight answer from them.

My advice, don't rely on emailing Cust. Service with rules questions. They're paid, it seems, to give the weakest of replies I've ever seen. :mad:

Well, I have mailed about a dozen times to custserv and so far, all replies were pretty accurate and up to scratch.
As for the designers, you can try your luck with sticky "Ask the designers" thread above, I haven't received a reply for any of my questions for ages :weep: ... but Candlekeep might be an option too.

wilcoxon
I'd have to say that the Yathrinshee is pretty explicit. All her spellcaster levels stack. The example uses Cleric and Wizard, but has the Yathrinshee levels count twice (cleric 5, wizard 3, yathrinshee 3 (+2 caster in each) yields divine 7, arcane 5, and necro 12 (5+3+2+2)). Therefore, the same would apply to Mystic Thurge levels. Also, just checked, no official errata on Yathrinshee.

The yathrinshee is pretty clear for the yathrinshee. Rest assured, I know perfectly well what you are implying and it sounds reasonable too. But we had exactly the same discussion when the Mystic Theurge came about and people with the 3E True Necromancer tried to use the Necromancer ability to buff their spellpower. As I said, it could well be that it was a designer's reply on the boards, as there is no errata to the PGtF anyway.

With my Irae I took the more cautious approach and I posted the relevant question again to Rich Baker in the aforementioned thread.
Caligula
09-14-05, 08:42 PM Hi guys! My group is about to start the CotSQ adventure with me as DM, and I have a couple of questions.

1) Why are you changing/modifying Irae T´srran? Isn´t she ok the way she is portraited in the adventure? (If you modified her, why - and how?)

2) How does the "Lost Empires of Faerun" portrait the events in CotSQ? What happened there?

Thanks!
Aphrella
09-14-05, 08:53 PM Hi guys! My group is about to start the CotSQ adventure with me as DM, and I have a couple of questions.

1) Why are you changing/modifying Irae T´srran? Isn´t she ok the way she is portraited in the adventure? (If you modified her, why - and how?)

2) How does the "Lost Empires of Faerun" portrait the events in CotSQ? What happened there?

Thanks!
Well, As for #1 - many are running 3.5 campaigns and CotSQ is a 3.0 module... there aren't many changes, but things need to be checked out before use. I personally haven't gotten around to making any changes to her yet, but then again the way my players have been rampaging through the module, I guess I'd best get my butt in gear... :embarrass :smirk:
Caligula
09-14-05, 09:00 PM Well, As for #1 - many are running 3.5 campaigns and CotSQ is a 3.0 module... there aren't many changes, but things need to be checked out before use. I personally haven't gotten around to making any changes to her yet, but then again the way my players have been rampaging through the module, I guess I'd best get my butt in gear... :embarrass :smirk:

So your players found the module a bit too easy? Would you advice me to spice things up a bit? My players are really experienced gamers and have pretty tough characters!
tamashastrife
09-15-05, 02:18 AM It has nothing to do with the quest being too easy as CotSQ is known to be a meatgrinder. It simply has to do with the fact that there has been many rule changes from 3.0 (the system CotSQ was written for) to 3.5 (what most people use now). Therefore the stats for many monsters/npcs are all wrong and need to be updated to 3.5 rules if you play a 3.5 campaign. Thankfully there's a thread for this on this very board called "City of the Spider Queen Revisited: Creatures and NPCs Revised to 3.5 Standards" so you dont have anything to do and you can simply take the updates from there.

As for Irae T'Sarran, some PrCs came out since the publication of CotSQ that make her write-up in the adventure very sub-optimal. Most notably, True Necromancer and Yathrinshee (which seems to have been written for her almost...) from Libris Mortis and Player's Guide to Faerun respectively. Hence why people want to update/optimize her.
Zanan
09-15-05, 04:07 AM Hence why people want to update/optimize her.

Add to this .. and with all due respect to the designer ... her and the ability stats of many other NPCs are woefully low, usually hanging around the 25 point buy method. Take a look at the folk of the War of the Spider Queen series (despite buff items) and you get an idea how high level or even mid-level NPCs should be statted. These relatively low ability stats can also be found in The Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil campaign, NPCs and opponents alike.

IMHO it is not so much to do with optimize the characters, rather make them as "special" as PCs are.

NB: Have a look at my "revision" of the City of the Spider Queen to get a few more hints about the need of some DM work.

Notes on CotSQ (http://forum.dnd-gate.de/index.php?showtopic=79) (Though I'll redo that sooner or later.)
Aphrella
09-15-05, 07:23 AM So your players found the module a bit too easy? Would you advice me to spice things up a bit? My players are really experienced gamers and have pretty tough characters!

I'm playing with a couple of gestault characters maximized for kicking drow and undead butts..... they also bypassed everyone outside the castle in the city (at least for now) by "negotiating" with the non-drow army. (my guys said, we only want to kill drow, the other guys said Sure - go to it ;) )
runestar
09-15-05, 08:51 AM In 3.0 just about every arcane spellcaster in CoTSQ initiated combat with haste. Now, I guess you will have to compensate with more quickened spells. Also noticeable are the loss of spellpower and the nerfing of spell focus. Also, some of the npcs are misstatted, that fire-giant blackguard is missing a ton of feats, for example.
Zanan
09-16-05, 04:14 AM I'm playing with a couple of gestault characters maximized for kicking drow and undead butts..... they also bypassed everyone outside the castle in the city (at least for now) by "negotiating" with the non-drow army. (my guys said, we only want to kill drow, the other guys said Sure - go to it ;) )

Once they get near to the city and Irae doesn't get the usual updates from Stith Morcane, she wil start to investigate. She'll have a look on the chaps (sounds like the Spartans of Halo to me, whatever "gestaults" are) and how they act and then will use non-drow and non-undead. It's hardly likely that they will be prepared for anything drow and undead, especially when both attack in unison (dreadwraith spring attacks out of and back into walls et al). So she may well summon a few interesting outsiders for a change (or let her Arcane Devotee do it), craft a few (spell) traps etc.. Sometimes it simply takes masses to get the folk into sweat. Say 20 skeletons, a handful of shadows and revenants, supplanted by bolt fire-ing drow warriors and dispelling mages. All about tactics. If the PC try to be overly clever, use the intelligence of the drow too.
Zanan
09-19-05, 04:26 AM Regarding the caster level of necromantic spells again ... I put this question to both, Rich Baker and Custserv (reply within 36 hours):

Question
More recently another question arose about the Yathrinshee PrC (PGtF) and her Necromancer ability. While it is perfectly clear how the Necromancer ability works for straight divine and arcane spellcasting levels and Yathrinshee levels, as described in the sample, another option for players might be the use of the Mystic Theurge PrC. As the MysT gets two spellcasting levels per PrC level, similarly to the Yathrinshee, people argued that the necromantic effects of these MysT levels do stack with themselves too. Is this the case regarding the Necromancer ability of the Yathrinshee?

e.g.: Clr 5 / Necr 5 / MysT 10 / Yath 3 would cast spells as a Clr 17 / Necr 17. For Necromancer effects, the CL might be 22 (Clr (5) + Necr (5) + MysT (10) + Yath (2)) or CL 34 with each MysT arcane and divine level stacking with each other too. Can you clear this up?

Custserv reply
The Mystic Theurge was not a consideration when the Necromancer ability was worded. The intent is to allow the Yathrinshee to stack this way as you suggest, but even though a strict interpretation allows other PrC's like the Theurge to fully stack, allowing this is taking it out of the bounds of intent. As written, the rules state that your example stacks up to CL 34 (17+17). It is up to the DM to adjudicate this how he/she sees fit.

Sam S.

Customer Service Representative
Wizards of the Coast

This is more or less how I expected it. That is, the Necromancer ability works primarily for the classes it is mentioned in (3,0 True Necromancer and 3,5 Yathrinshee), while it was not intended to be expanded to something like the Mystic Theurge. IF the PCs walk the adventure I would consider the stacking effect. For the time being, I think that my version is "healthy" enough.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
wilcoxon 09-05-05, 11:03 PM	I remember seeing a [semi?]official update of Irae T'sarran (final encounter from CotSQ) somewhere, but (as usual), now that I'm looking for it, I can't find it. I think it was in a sourcebook (FR), ettata, or Web Enhancement but I'm not positive. I've already found the thread with player-updates for CotSQ (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=255217) but haven't found a reference to the source I remember seeing.
warlockco 09-05-05, 11:51 PM	There was a Web Enhancement but it was mainly random encounters in the Underdark.
runestar 09-06-05, 08:01 AM	Perhaps you mean the PGTF article about the yahrinshee prc? It suggests updating the various spellcasters who worship Kiaransalee in CoTSQ with vile feats and oriented prcs, like aforementioned class. My advice, don't, since I feel it dilutes their power too much to be much of a threat to the PCs.
Dargoth 09-06-05, 08:10 AM	Ive decided to redo her as a Cleric necromancer and give her levels of the True Necromancer PrC from Libris Mortis
wilcoxon 09-06-05, 07:03 PM	Perhaps you mean the PGTF article about the yahrinshee prc? It suggests updating the various spellcasters who worship Kiaransalee in CoTSQ with vile feats and oriented prcs, like aforementioned class. My advice, don't, since I feel it dilutes their power too much to be much of a threat to the PCs. That might have been what I saw. I thought there was something similar that specifically updated Irae T'sarran using the new class(es)/feat(s)/whatever including updated spell list and the like. Thanks for the pointer to that. I missed that section when I was recently going back through PGtF (stupid putting PrCs in two different places in one book). I see what you mean - the Yarinshee is an interesting PrC but it means Irae loses access to 8th and 9th level cleric spells (but does gains a fair number of wizard spells) - not worth the tradeoff.
Kuje31 09-06-05, 07:07 PM	Lost Empires also discusses how the events from that module played out. :)
Slime Lord 09-06-05, 11:25 PM	Lost Empires also discusses how the events from that module played out. :) Can I ask a slightly off queston? What's the difference between a necromancer and a true necromancer?
Kuje31 09-06-05, 11:47 PM	Can I ask a slightly off queston? What's the difference between a necromancer and a true necromancer? Uh? Heeheh. I guess power? I think one is a core specialist and one's a prestige specialist. I dunno really. :)
warlockco 09-07-05, 12:27 AM	Can I ask a slightly off queston? What's the difference between a necromancer and a true necromancer? True Necromancer is a 14 level PrC that you can enter at 7th level. By the time you hit 20th level, you will be a 16th level caster in both Divine and Arcane magic.
Zanan 09-07-05, 05:00 AM	I see what you mean - the Yarinshee is an interesting PrC but it means Irae loses access to 8th and 9th level cleric spells (but does gains a fair number of wizard spells) - not worth the tradeoff. Thing with the Yathrinshee is that spellcaster levels for necromantic effects stack, which it doesn't for the True Necromancer. That is, spellcaster level pre-Yathrinshee. While she may loose a spell level or two, she gains arcane spell power in abundance. I'll publish my take on her soon at the DnD-Gate, but in advance ... I made her a Clr 3 / Nec 3 / MysT 10 / Yath 4. Thus she has the spellpower of a 15th level Cleric AND a 15th level Necromancer (8th level spells both). Her CL for necromantic spells is 18 though. Furthermore, the immunity to any death spells and effects comes in handy. :evillaugh
Dargoth 09-07-05, 08:21 PM	Can I ask a slightly off queston? What's the difference between a necromancer and a true necromancer? I assume this was directed at me Necromancer is a Specialist wizard class found in PHB True Necromancer is a PrC found in Libris Mortis
runestar 09-09-05, 05:05 AM	Her CL for necromantic spells is 18 though. Surely you mean 30. ;)
Zanan 09-09-05, 11:36 AM	Surely you mean 30. ;) Nono ... Mystic Theurge level do not stack with themselves. As in: each Mystic Theurge level counts as one additional caster level, even though he actually gets one in each spellcasting variety (i.e. arcane and divine) per level.
runestar 09-09-05, 11:24 PM	All caster lvs stack, as per the prc desc. Thus, your arcane caster lv of 15 stacks with your divine caster lv of 15 for a final caster lv of 30 for your necromancy spells. MT lvs here are counted twice since they advance two spellcasting classes at the same time.
wilcoxon 09-12-05, 10:09 PM	Hmm. I hadn't thought of using MT (personally, I don't like it as it is imnsho underpowered at low levels and overpowered at high levels - then again, I'm the DM this time :schemes: ). The MT/Yathrinshee version of Irae is definitely worth at least considering.
wilcoxon 09-12-05, 11:02 PM	Ouch! I just did some more reading and am definitely going to do a workup of Irae as MT/Yathrinshee using spells (and domains?) from Libris Mortis. That just looks too evil not to try working up. :evillaugh:
Zanan 09-13-05, 04:16 AM	All caster lvs stack, as per the prc desc. Thus, your arcane caster lv of 15 stacks with your divine caster lv of 15 for a final caster lv of 30 for your necromancy spells. MT lvs here are counted twice since they advance two spellcasting classes at the same time. The same question arose a wee while back and methinks one of the designers (in FAQ, Errata or board discussion) said something about this non-stacking of the Mystic Theurge. While I see your point, I would put in that the Necromancer ability of the Yathrinshee specificly aims at full class levels (see example) and caster levels gained by the Yathrinshee. Anyway, for the time being, I take each level of the Mystic Theurge as one caster level gained, as it is with normal spells. Maybe one of the designers or custserv can clear this up.
wilcoxon 09-13-05, 11:20 AM	The same question arose a wee while back and methinks one of the designers (in FAQ, Errata or board discussion) said something about this non-stacking of the Mystic Theurge. While I see your point, I would put in that the Necromancer ability of the Yathrinshee specificly aims at full class levels (see example) and caster levels gained by the Yathrinshee. Anyway, for the time being, I take each level of the Mystic Theurge as one caster level gained, as it is with normal spells. Maybe one of the designers or custserv can clear this up. I'd have to say that the Yathrinshee is pretty explicit. All her spellcaster levels stack. The example uses Cleric and Wizard, but has the Yathrinshee levels count twice (cleric 5, wizard 3, yathrinshee 3 (+2 caster in each) yields divine 7, arcane 5, and necro 12 (5+3+2+2)). Therefore, the same would apply to Mystic Thurge levels. Also, just checked, no official errata on Yathrinshee.
Slime Lord 09-13-05, 11:31 AM	I'd have to say that the Yathrinshee is pretty explicit. All her spellcaster levels stack. The example uses Cleric and Wizard, but has the Yathrinshee levels count twice (cleric 5, wizard 3, yathrinshee 3 (+2 caster in each) yields divine 7, arcane 5, and necro 12 (5+3+2+2)). Therefore, the same would apply to Mystic Thurge levels. Also, just checked, no official errata on Yathrinshee. I just want to see that Yathrinshee sounds too much like Shrinshee to me and I keep thinking of Shrinshee instead of Yathrinshee...I know, off topic, but I keep watching this topic... :D
wilcoxon 09-13-05, 12:01 PM	Thoughts on granting Kiaransalee the Deathbound domain (from Libris Mortis)? It seems to fit her portfolio, but I figured I'd check and see what others thought about it.
Razz 09-13-05, 12:11 PM	Maybe one of the designers or custserv can clear this up. The designers are better equipped to clear that up. After many emails to Cust. Service with a myriad of questions, their answers are something a 5-year old would tell me. All of the emails have just been them throwing the question back at me in answer form and filled with a bunch of "maybe"s and "I'm not sure"s and it was just sickening to see how D&D illiterate those people at cust service are. I have never received one straight answer from them. My advice, don't rely on emailing Cust. Service with rules questions. They're paid, it seems, to give the weakest of replies I've ever seen. :mad:
Razz 09-13-05, 12:13 PM	Thoughts on granting Kiaransalee the Deathbound domain (from Libris Mortis)? It seems to fit her portfolio, but I figured I'd check and see what others thought about it. I have typed a list of every WotC published domain (including the ones from Dragon), minus the ones from Eberron, and I have been slowly checking off each one for each FR deity. Deathbound was one I definitely gave to Kiaransalee. Interesting thing is, the more domains they keep publishing, the more domains each deity has. One of the FR deities has like 8 so far.
Slime Lord 09-13-05, 12:40 PM	I have typed a list of every WotC published domain (including the ones from Dragon), minus the ones from Eberron, and I have been slowly checking off each one for each FR deity. Deathbound was one I definitely gave to Kiaransalee. Interesting thing is, the more domains they keep publishing, the more domains each deity has. One of the FR deities has like 8 so far. Deathbound just sounds like a hideious, evil domain. Reguardless, knowing Big K some what, it fits her ;) lol.
Zanan 09-13-05, 05:28 PM	The designers are better equipped to clear that up. After many emails to Cust. Service with a myriad of questions, their answers are something a 5-year old would tell me. All of the emails have just been them throwing the question back at me in answer form and filled with a bunch of "maybe"s and "I'm not sure"s and it was just sickening to see how D&D illiterate those people at cust service are. I have never received one straight answer from them. My advice, don't rely on emailing Cust. Service with rules questions. They're paid, it seems, to give the weakest of replies I've ever seen. :mad: Well, I have mailed about a dozen times to custserv and so far, all replies were pretty accurate and up to scratch. As for the designers, you can try your luck with sticky "Ask the designers" thread above, I haven't received a reply for any of my questions for ages :weep: ... but Candlekeep might be an option too. wilcoxon I'd have to say that the Yathrinshee is pretty explicit. All her spellcaster levels stack. The example uses Cleric and Wizard, but has the Yathrinshee levels count twice (cleric 5, wizard 3, yathrinshee 3 (+2 caster in each) yields divine 7, arcane 5, and necro 12 (5+3+2+2)). Therefore, the same would apply to Mystic Thurge levels. Also, just checked, no official errata on Yathrinshee. The yathrinshee is pretty clear for the yathrinshee. Rest assured, I know perfectly well what you are implying and it sounds reasonable too. But we had exactly the same discussion when the Mystic Theurge came about and people with the 3E True Necromancer tried to use the Necromancer ability to buff their spellpower. As I said, it could well be that it was a designer's reply on the boards, as there is no errata to the PGtF anyway. With my Irae I took the more cautious approach and I posted the relevant question again to Rich Baker in the aforementioned thread.
Caligula 09-14-05, 08:42 PM	Hi guys! My group is about to start the CotSQ adventure with me as DM, and I have a couple of questions. 1) Why are you changing/modifying Irae T´srran? Isn´t she ok the way she is portraited in the adventure? (If you modified her, why - and how?) 2) How does the "Lost Empires of Faerun" portrait the events in CotSQ? What happened there? Thanks!
Aphrella 09-14-05, 08:53 PM	Hi guys! My group is about to start the CotSQ adventure with me as DM, and I have a couple of questions. 1) Why are you changing/modifying Irae T´srran? Isn´t she ok the way she is portraited in the adventure? (If you modified her, why - and how?) 2) How does the "Lost Empires of Faerun" portrait the events in CotSQ? What happened there? Thanks! Well, As for #1 - many are running 3.5 campaigns and CotSQ is a 3.0 module... there aren't many changes, but things need to be checked out before use. I personally haven't gotten around to making any changes to her yet, but then again the way my players have been rampaging through the module, I guess I'd best get my butt in gear... :embarrass :smirk:
Caligula 09-14-05, 09:00 PM	Well, As for #1 - many are running 3.5 campaigns and CotSQ is a 3.0 module... there aren't many changes, but things need to be checked out before use. I personally haven't gotten around to making any changes to her yet, but then again the way my players have been rampaging through the module, I guess I'd best get my butt in gear... :embarrass :smirk: So your players found the module a bit too easy? Would you advice me to spice things up a bit? My players are really experienced gamers and have pretty tough characters!
tamashastrife 09-15-05, 02:18 AM	It has nothing to do with the quest being too easy as CotSQ is known to be a meatgrinder. It simply has to do with the fact that there has been many rule changes from 3.0 (the system CotSQ was written for) to 3.5 (what most people use now). Therefore the stats for many monsters/npcs are all wrong and need to be updated to 3.5 rules if you play a 3.5 campaign. Thankfully there's a thread for this on this very board called "City of the Spider Queen Revisited: Creatures and NPCs Revised to 3.5 Standards" so you dont have anything to do and you can simply take the updates from there. As for Irae T'Sarran, some PrCs came out since the publication of CotSQ that make her write-up in the adventure very sub-optimal. Most notably, True Necromancer and Yathrinshee (which seems to have been written for her almost...) from Libris Mortis and Player's Guide to Faerun respectively. Hence why people want to update/optimize her.
Zanan 09-15-05, 04:07 AM	Hence why people want to update/optimize her. Add to this .. and with all due respect to the designer ... her and the ability stats of many other NPCs are woefully low, usually hanging around the 25 point buy method. Take a look at the folk of the War of the Spider Queen series (despite buff items) and you get an idea how high level or even mid-level NPCs should be statted. These relatively low ability stats can also be found in The Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil campaign, NPCs and opponents alike. IMHO it is not so much to do with optimize the characters, rather make them as "special" as PCs are. NB: Have a look at my "revision" of the City of the Spider Queen to get a few more hints about the need of some DM work. Notes on CotSQ (http://forum.dnd-gate.de/index.php?showtopic=79) (Though I'll redo that sooner or later.)
Aphrella 09-15-05, 07:23 AM	So your players found the module a bit too easy? Would you advice me to spice things up a bit? My players are really experienced gamers and have pretty tough characters! I'm playing with a couple of gestault characters maximized for kicking drow and undead butts..... they also bypassed everyone outside the castle in the city (at least for now) by "negotiating" with the non-drow army. (my guys said, we only want to kill drow, the other guys said Sure - go to it ;) )
runestar 09-15-05, 08:51 AM	In 3.0 just about every arcane spellcaster in CoTSQ initiated combat with haste. Now, I guess you will have to compensate with more quickened spells. Also noticeable are the loss of spellpower and the nerfing of spell focus. Also, some of the npcs are misstatted, that fire-giant blackguard is missing a ton of feats, for example.
Zanan 09-16-05, 04:14 AM	I'm playing with a couple of gestault characters maximized for kicking drow and undead butts..... they also bypassed everyone outside the castle in the city (at least for now) by "negotiating" with the non-drow army. (my guys said, we only want to kill drow, the other guys said Sure - go to it ;) ) Once they get near to the city and Irae doesn't get the usual updates from Stith Morcane, she wil start to investigate. She'll have a look on the chaps (sounds like the Spartans of Halo to me, whatever "gestaults" are) and how they act and then will use non-drow and non-undead. It's hardly likely that they will be prepared for anything drow and undead, especially when both attack in unison (dreadwraith spring attacks out of and back into walls et al). So she may well summon a few interesting outsiders for a change (or let her Arcane Devotee do it), craft a few (spell) traps etc.. Sometimes it simply takes masses to get the folk into sweat. Say 20 skeletons, a handful of shadows and revenants, supplanted by bolt fire-ing drow warriors and dispelling mages. All about tactics. If the PC try to be overly clever, use the intelligence of the drow too.
Zanan 09-19-05, 04:26 AM	Regarding the caster level of necromantic spells again ... I put this question to both, Rich Baker and Custserv (reply within 36 hours): Question More recently another question arose about the Yathrinshee PrC (PGtF) and her Necromancer ability. While it is perfectly clear how the Necromancer ability works for straight divine and arcane spellcasting levels and Yathrinshee levels, as described in the sample, another option for players might be the use of the Mystic Theurge PrC. As the MysT gets two spellcasting levels per PrC level, similarly to the Yathrinshee, people argued that the necromantic effects of these MysT levels do stack with themselves too. Is this the case regarding the Necromancer ability of the Yathrinshee? e.g.: Clr 5 / Necr 5 / MysT 10 / Yath 3 would cast spells as a Clr 17 / Necr 17. For Necromancer effects, the CL might be 22 (Clr (5) + Necr (5) + MysT (10) + Yath (2)) or CL 34 with each MysT arcane and divine level stacking with each other too. Can you clear this up? Custserv reply The Mystic Theurge was not a consideration when the Necromancer ability was worded. The intent is to allow the Yathrinshee to stack this way as you suggest, but even though a strict interpretation allows other PrC's like the Theurge to fully stack, allowing this is taking it out of the bounds of intent. As written, the rules state that your example stacks up to CL 34 (17+17). It is up to the DM to adjudicate this how he/she sees fit. Sam S. Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast This is more or less how I expected it. That is, the Necromancer ability works primarily for the classes it is mentioned in (3,0 True Necromancer and 3,5 Yathrinshee), while it was not intended to be expanded to something like the Mystic Theurge. IF the PCs walk the adventure I would consider the stacking effect. For the time being, I think that my version is "healthy" enough.