Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Klyden 04-19-04, 11:02 PM	Irae T’sarran for your viewing pleasure! Please tell me if I made any mistakes okay? Here she is: (Edit: Soon to be completed) Irae T’sarran: Female Drow Cleric 6/Wizard 5/Yathrinshee 10 of Kiaransalee; CR 22; Medium-size humanoid; HD 6d8+12 plus 5d4+10 plus 10d4+20; hp 96; Init +5; Spd 30 ft.; AC 30 (touch 18 or flatfooted 29); Base Atk +11; Grp +11; Atk +13 (1d6+3/19-20 plus 1d6 points of negative energy, claw of the revenancer); Full Atk +13/+8 (1d6+3/19-20 plus 1d6 points of negative energy, claw of the revenancer); SA Curse of the revenancer, keening, rebuke undead, threnody; SQ Death ward, drow abilities, necromancer, rebuke undead, SR 31, zone of desecration; AL CE; SV Fort +13, Ref +13, Will +20; Str 12, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 18, Cha 12. Skills and Feats: Concentration +, Decipher Script +, Diplomacy +, Knowledge (religion) +, Search +, Spellcraft +; Craft Rod, Craft Wondrous Item, Extra Turning, Greater Spell Focus (necromancy), Greater Spell Penetration, Improved Initiative, Lichloved, Lightning Reflexes, Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus (necromancy), Spell Penetration. Arcane Spells Prepared: (4/4/4/4/3/2/1; save DC 13 + spell level or save DC 15 + spell level for necromancy spells): 0 - detect magic, disrupt undead, ray of frost, resistance; 1st chill touch, mage armor, ray of enfeeblement, spirit worm; 2nd - death armor, ghoul touch, protection from arrows, spectral hand; 3rd - displacement, handfang, ray of exhaustion, vampiric touch; 4th - fleshshiver, greater invisibility, stoneskin; 5th -cloud kill, waves of fatigue; 6th - eyebite. Arcane Spells Known: 0 - arcane mark, detect magic, disrupt undead, ray of frost, read magic, resistance; 1st - cause fear, chill touch, mage armor, magic missile, ray of enfeeblement, spirit worm; 2nd - command undead, death armor, ghoul touch, protection from arrows, spectral hand, tasha‘s hideous laughter; 3rd - fireball, handfang, lightning bolt, ray of exhaustion, vampiric touch; 4th - enervation, fleshshiver, greater invisibility, stone skin; 5th cloud kill, teleport, waves of fatigue; 6th - circle of death, create undead, eyebite. Divine Spells Prepared: (6/5+1/4+1/4+1/3+1/3+/2+1; save DC 15 + spell level or save DC 16 + spell level for necromancy spells): 0 - detect magic, detect poison, guidance, inflict light wounds (x2), mending; 1st - bane, divine favor, entropic shield, inflict light wounds (x2), shield of faith; 2nd - bear‘s endurance, death knell, desecrate, inflict moderate wounds (x2); 3rd - animate dead, bestow curse, inflict serious wounds (x2), protection from energy; 4th - fire shield, freedom of movement, inflict critical wounds (x2); 5th - mass inflict light wounds (x2), slay living; 6th - banishment, mass inflict moderate wounds (x2). Domains: Retribution (may make strike of vengeance 1/day) and Undead (gains Extra Turning feat). Possessions: Claw of the revenancer, eyes of the Spider, rod of the twisted weave, +4 ring of protection, +4 cloak of resistance.
Arthedain 04-20-04, 04:09 AM	First of all : Nice statblock. Easy to read, and using the "accepted" 3.x convention. I haven't got my Players Guide to Faerun and City of the Spider Queen in front of me right now, so I'm commenting a bit from my (fuzzy) memory :). 1) Irae has got an Int of 12, thus she can only cast 0th, 1st and 2nd level wizard spells. 2) I haven't run City of the Spider Queen yet, but I seem to recall that she was researching a mighty spell (9th level?), and this is something that she's no longer capable of with the wiz/clr multiclass. Of course, it would probably be just fine as a DM to rule that she can research the spell anyway due to her special connection/high status with Kiarensalee. 3) I must admit I'm *very* sceptical as to whether she is a CR21 encounter. I would say somewhere between CR13 and 15, based on her 6th level clr + 2.level wiz spells. Even with 5.level wizard spells I feel that she's not pushing CR15, but as a (mainly) DM/player who's never really tried out high level (12+) gaming, I might be wrong. 4) Feats : Toughness and Improved Toughness?? I don't remember if these are requirements for the Yathrinshee PrC, but I think they are suboptimal choices, especially Toughness. Go for one, not both. I'm just guessing here, but have you chosen them because she has to be "tough" when consorting with undeads etc (lichloved is a PrC req if I recall correctly)? May I suggest that the Great Fortitude feat might be a potential substitute feat? That's my initial reactions. Use'em or lose'em :)
Klyden 04-20-04, 07:50 AM	Made some changes but there's still more work to be done on her. Thanks for the advice Arthedain. I don't suppose you could tell me how many Bonus Spells she would get could you?
Arthedain 04-20-04, 08:25 AM	You're welcome Bonus spells : Wis 18 (+4) gives one bonus spell for levels 1 through 4 Int 16 (+3) Gives one bonus spell for levels 1 through 3 Another thing, regarding spells: If I recall correctly, the Yathrinshee PrC gives 6 levels of spellprogression for both arcane and divine magic. From the statblock it seems that Irae cast as a Clr12 and Wiz9, but I think it should be as Clr12 and Wiz11. Might be helpful to add her caster level, right behind her "spells per day; save dc x+spell level"-listing. Easier than having to calculate her caster level in the middle of an encounter :). Regarding possessions : I'm not sure what those unique items she carries does, but if none of them enhance her spellcasting scores (int and wis), I would seriously consider giving her a periapt of wisdom and/or headband of intellect. I guess this *might* break the "NPC gold by level" limit, but she's the main villain in a 10th - 18th level adv, so no need to be stingy ;).
Cunning Linguist 04-20-04, 08:39 AM	Looking over her stats, I don't think she is any match for the my party.. Unless she gets another Yathrinshee level, and has the ability to Keen once per day. This would make her a much better foe, and more deadly, like the original Irea, with her 9 level cleric spells.
Arthedain 04-20-04, 08:49 AM	Cunning Linguist : That's my impression too. AC26 : Decent, but any Ftr16+ will hit more than once per round SR31 : Might save her a couple of times, even vs spellcasters with 16+ levels HP99 : One round vs 4 16+ adventurers, that's my gut feeling Her spell DC's are to low, her spells are puny (not enough high-level ooomph). Saves are ok, but nothing exceptional at 20.level When I finally got my PGtF last week, my gut feeling was that the loss of caster levels (due to the Yathrinshee PrC) would cripple a character like Irae... and I suspect that I might have been correct in my inital assessment. Is it possible to reduce the number of wizard levels, and boost clr-levels? Wasn't the req that a yathrinshee has to be able to cast spectral hand as an arcane spell? That's a 2.level wizard spell, so perhaps Clr7/Wiz3/Yath10? That would give her 7.level cleric spells, pluss the keen ability....
Purple Dragon Knight 04-20-04, 12:44 PM	Don't forget that with wizard levels, you can now have Irae precast Shield, Stoneskin, Fire Shield, Protection from Arrows, Displacement and Greater Invisibility on herself long before the fight begins. That's a whole new ball game if you use her this way... I'm assuming she could do this because she gets a lot of warning that the PCs are in her keep. Divine Power + Divine Favor should also help evening out any deficiencies. Have her cast Protection from Energy if she also scried the PCs successfully earlier in the game (i.e. she can scry on the party's mage and look at what he's studying... she can then know if it will be lightning bolts or fireballs... :) )
Sovellios Darkshine 04-20-04, 09:26 PM	Her caster levels are too low Purple Dragon Knight, a straight classed caster in the party can take out all her protections pretty easily with greater dispel, Abyss help her if there are 2 casters in the party
Purple Dragon Knight 04-20-04, 09:59 PM	Can targeted dispels be avoided with Mirror Image? if so, we could have her cast that to even the odds. Edit: Yes, this tactic would work according to the SRD, "Enemies attempting to attack you or cast spells at you must select from among indistinguishable targets. Generally, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. Any successful attack against an image destroys it. An image’s AC is 10 + your size modifier + your Dex modifier. Figments seem to react normally to area spells (such as looking like they’re burned or dead after being hit by a fireball)."
Morgrym 04-20-04, 11:17 PM	Blindsight neutralizes most of her defensive spells (greater invis/displacement/mirror image) and it is 3rd level (2nd level if you use Underdark sourcebook) However if you keep her as a cleric and throw in a few high level planar bindings. Any adamantite sword eliminates stoneskin. Currently a 5th level caster eliminates most of those spells and even her SR doesn't come into play. I find you have to be very creative with spells. Check out manual of planes. Use of miracle wisely can also be very effective. Even if it is used to simlpy send the party to the dordrien crypt. If the party lagged they will fail to return in time to stop the Great Revenance.
Purple Dragon Knight 04-21-04, 12:25 AM	Deafening attacks (or silence) thwarts blindsight. So a well-placed sound burst or shout will take care of a "blindsighted" party. Silence is the best: after she's done buffing herself, have Irae cast silence on the floor, then have her take a move action backwards so she can cast behind the "silence bubble". I'd rule that the radius of a silence spell effectively acts as a "wall" that a blindsighted creature cannot see through. Unless your PCs also have scent, this should moderately surprise them... When she's running low on spells, have her step into the silence zone herself. Have a few Glyphs of Warding on the floor so the PCs whack themselves advancing on her. Yes, be creative. You're talking about a drow high priestess who has DAYS to prepare for the PCs (she knows as soon as her daughter is killed in Szith Morcane). One good thing to slow the PCs down would be to have her precast several Silence spells overlapping the battlefield. Have the whole area silenced except the 5ft square she's standing in. Even if the PCs figure out how to dispel this (i.e. silent dispel or exit room and cast dispel magic through doors), this is bound to have them waste a lot of time. Meanwhile the fighters get whacked with Glyphs, Confusion, and other nasties. There's nothing saying that she can't have MINUTES available to buff herself. If you think that's not enough, just give her more scrolls so she can buff and still have spells memorized for the LONG fight. Meld into Stone is also a good one if you want to give her time to heal herself... PCs don't usually memorize Stone Shape, Passwall, Transmute Rock to Mud and other non-direct spells. Take advantage of that. A good old spell people tend to forget is Sanctuary: there's a low likelihood that a PC can fail the save if Irae has it up, but in the last game I played, my Bebilith failed its Will save vs. the party's cleric and guess what: that cleric spent the next 10 rounds prancing around the battlefield, heedless of the critter and unafraid of that nasty Rend Armor ability that MY Bebiliths sooo love to use vs. PCs! :) This is a first level spell that can make a fighter absolutely USELESS (especially if not a straight fighter, as his/her Will save will be ridiculously low, even at 10th level... IMC, the party's BDF is a Shield Dwarf Female Fighter2 / Barbarian3 / Battleragera5, so you can guess that her Will save isn't the bomb... I always try to dominate her, as the party's clerics - they have 2 - are always forgetting to cast Protection from Evil on her...) Finally but not the least, a good old Protection from Good can make the players miss on a lot of attacks / make Irae succeed vs. a lot of spells. Never underestimate a +2 and a protection from mind-control... Oh, and always remember the drow's +2 to saves vs. spells (that means almost a permanent +2 save bonus, as most saves she'll make will be vs. the PCs' spells)
Twilight Herald 04-21-04, 11:43 AM	Its been a while since I read the COTSQ module, but doesn't Irae cast a miracle spell to bring the Temple of Kiaransalee into the material plane? Several more levels of clerical casting might be in order - although she may simply have used a scroll of miracle instead, I suppose.
Klyden 04-21-04, 11:38 PM	Made some small changes. More changes coming soon.
Dargoth 04-22-04, 10:32 PM	Id give her give her 15 levels of Cleric and 10 of Yathrinshee She should also be able to cast the Epic Spell Horrriable Army of the dead as its the spell that most closely resembles the Great Reverancer spell. Give her feats that will enhance the HAOTD spell as well
Ravashack 04-23-04, 05:06 AM	I'm just curious. If caster level may be a problem and you're giving her 21 levels, why not Cleric 5/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Yathrinshee 3? It'd give her 9th level cleric spells (just barely) and with an Int boost, access to Horrid Wilting, which would be automatically capped due to Yathrinshee's Necromancy ability, and you can play with the higher level wizard necromancy spells like Waves of Exhaustion.
Nightingale 7 04-24-04, 07:11 PM	Yes,I think too,that a mix of MyTh and Yathrinsee levels are necesarry for her.He does many things that practically require 9th level clerical spellcasting.She Miracles the Undying Temple.She sends those nice SM9 guerilla attacks against the group.That epic spell she is researching etc... She is the high priestess of Kiaransalee,so she should get 9th level cleric spells.I think your idea is pretty good Ravashack,since she already just touched 9th level due to the 3 hierophant levels,and all those necromantic arcane spells make her more fearsome too..
Cunning Linguist 04-26-04, 05:56 AM	could anyone perhaps stat out the Cleric 5/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Yathrinshee 3 version? Sounds like it's the right way to go to power her up, and perhaps put the fear of DM back into the players. Perhaps we could also get a max boost stat version for her also? And perhaps we could also write down some nasty tactic, in round 1, round 2 style.
Zanan 04-27-04, 10:11 AM	First ... you should remark that this thread is for DMs only, since players should not know of Irae's levels ;) Second ... Str 12, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 18, Cha 12. Will you ever meet a player character with 25-PB-low-score-sore stats like this? At her level? One thing which irks me about most adventures as well as sourcebook (and Dragon) stuff are the usage of a low-key approach to anything related to abilities. It does save you some amount of calculation time, but you will end up with pretty average (if not to say sub-avarage) characters. She should at least have received a 32 PB statblock, though I would prefer unique abilities for anyone above 12th to 15th level. But that's just me ...
Morgrym 04-27-04, 11:35 AM	Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight Deafening attacks (or silence) thwarts blindsight. So a well-placed sound burst or shout will take care of a "blindsighted" party. Silence is the best: after she's done buffing herself, have Irae cast silence on the floor, then have her take a move action backwards so she can cast behind the "silence bubble". I'd rule that the radius of a silence spell effectively acts as a "wall" that a blindsighted creature cannot see through. Unless your PCs also have scent, this should moderately surprise them... When she's running low on spells, have her step into the silence zone herself. Have a few Glyphs of Warding on the floor so the PCs whack themselves advancing on her. Yes, be creative. You're talking about a drow high priestess who has DAYS to prepare for the PCs (she knows as soon as her daughter is killed in Szith Morcane). Silence nor sound burst effect blindsight as the spell specifically states to use the definition in both DMG and MM which states bindsight creature has the use of all senses. smell taste touch sound to locate things (hence the lack of need for the character to make spot/listen checks while within the radius of the spell) The silence would slow the caster put not effect the fighters. Sactuary may stop 1 fighter but not the other (Fighter/samurai/mstr samurai/devoted defender) With a grappler and a supreme cleave samurai, casting must be finished to create a solid defense to prevent the fighter from getting within 10'. Zanan is correct with the ridiculously low average stats. Also the fact the writers did the stats incorrectly in the appendix. Any creature/character that has feats that effect stats/saves as well as magic items are not represented in the stats at all (non of the vampires have there +6 inherent natural armor added to there AC). It is almost as much work to correct the stats as it was to restat everything to 3.5. I think the cleric with full plate and heavy mace and a S10 was hilarious
Purple Dragon Knight 04-27-04, 01:47 PM	Originally posted by Morgrym Silence nor sound burst effect blindsight as the spell specifically states to use the definition in both DMG and MM which states bindsight creature has the use of all senses. smell taste touch sound to locate things (hence the lack of need for the character to make spot/listen checks while within the radius of the spell) Really? in this case, I use my God-given DM right, to use the SRD definition of Blindsight. You see, that's why there's still a DM in this game... someone has to watch for broken stuff and fix it. I could go on and argue that Blindsight cannot be derived from anything else than hearing in the case of most humanoids because smell and taste are ridiculously inferior to those found in most animals, but I'll just be happy with the SRD that says: "Deafening attacks thwart blindsight if it relies on hearing." ...and I'll tell any player who asks, "Yes, yes it does!" :)
Cunning Linguist 05-03-04, 02:49 PM	Ok, since no one wanted to stat out this lady for me, Im trying to do it myself.I gave her the levels: Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 / Mystic Theurge 10 / Yathrinshee 5 Does this work? I was looking over the req. for each class, and I think it would work, but since I so seldom make 21 level NPC's, I'm not 100% sure. In the feat section, I got: Spell Focus (nec) Evil Brand Lichloved Lolth Meat Highborn Drow Greater Spell Focus (nec) Improved Familiar Epic Spellcasting Any ideas if these choices are good or bad? Also: Why type of familiar should Irea have? I was thinking about a Deathfang, but a Eyeball would be deadly with it's Touch to Ray attack ability, also I would be able to stack some nice beholder equipment on the eyeball, that my PC's would love to loot afterwards. (one of my PC's have a Eyeball beholder) I was also tinkering with the idea of giving her some drugs to use, and be found by the PC's (make her more vile and such) Would Haunspeir and Panaeolo be ok or overpowerd?
Purple Dragon Knight 05-03-04, 06:34 PM	Originally posted by Cunning Linguist Ok, since no one wanted to stat out this lady for me, Im trying to do it myself.I gave her the levels: Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 / Mystic Theurge 10 / Yathrinshee 5 I'd go Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 / Mystic Theurge 7 / Yathrinshee 10... It's just two levels higher than your original build, it has the same caster level, but it has all levels of Yathrinshee (so she would have Keening... :smirk: ) I'm not too sure how caster level works at epic levels anymore, so if the additional caster levels do not give her any extra spells per day, I'd go for Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 / Mystic Theurge 5 / Yathrinshee 10 (total 21, last level being Yathrinshee since it doesn't boost caster level anyway). That would give her 7th level spells only, but her Keening ability could kill someone in the first round (and that creature rises immediately as a zombie under her control thanks to Curse of the Revenancer). Have the room filled with powerful undead and the odds will be evened out pretty quick (thanks to her Zone of Desecration aura)
Zanan 05-04-04, 03:32 AM	With regards to feats ... I'd "dump" Highborn Drow and Lolth's Meat (flair?) and introduce Quicken Spell, Extend Spell and Persistent Spell. You see, as much as I like her being the ultimate villain and not a combat oriented lass, she will face the PC in her final battle and needs to provide a decent challenge. (E.g., a quickened obscuring mist right in front and the middle of the PC when they enter will allow her to summon support and get some distance between herself and the fools who want to challenge her.)
Cunning Linguist 05-04-04, 08:07 AM	Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 / Mystic Theurge 7 / Yathrinshee 10... That would make her.. level 23.. might be a problem for the party, but then again, some of them have a successfull Halasters Quaff in there body... I guess level 23 might work just fine..
Chronomage 05-04-04, 08:25 AM	Meh, good stat block, but I did things different for my version. First, there were 6 pcs in my group, rather than the 4 I was supposed to have, and second, they were using the 32 point buy. Had to make some changes. First every monster was ranked according to general challenge, from underlings, to nameless lieutenants, to named lieutenants and boss villains (including Irae, Cabrath, and Zedarr, among others). Underlings got a 28 point buy, Nameless lieutenants a 30, and named lieutenants and boss villains got the 32. Second, every monster was either leveled by one, left the same, or given a friend of equal or lesser CR, story dependant. Lastly, all ability scores were rebought and new equipment (save for obvious plot items such as all the levitating, spider climbing, flying crap right before the gargantuan spider web in Szith Morcane) was shelled out according to new level. I left Irae Tsarran mainly a cleric with: 11 cleric/10 Yathrinshee. I believe that opened her up to both 9th level spells and the possibilty of Epics. Cabrath, on the other hand, was changed to a 1 Wizard/7 Cleric/8 Yathrinshee, giving her 4th level Wizard spells, and 7th level cleric spells (because caster level increases for both arcane and divine when taking Yathrinshee) PS, characters haven't gotten this far yet, they're still in Szith Morcane, cowardly tee-totallers that they are.
Cunning Linguist 05-04-04, 08:51 AM	I left Irae Tsarran mainly a cleric with: 11 cleric/10 Yathrinshee. You need to be able to cast spectral hand in the arcane version, a 2 level wizard spell, to qualify for Yathrinshee PrC, so 11 Cleric, 10 Yathrinshee does not work, neither does 1 Wizard/7 Cleric/8 Yathrinshee
Chronomage 05-04-04, 08:57 AM	Crap, you're right. So it looks like 3rd Wizard minimum for her. Hrmm... Thanks, didn't notice that (though it doesn't seem necessary for the class as I pictured it, but whatever). So, hrmm: Cleric 11/Wizard 3/Yathrinshee 8, for 9th level spells (cleric wise), and 5th level spells wizard wise. She loses Wailing Death, and that's ok. This for Irae. For Cabrath: Wizard 3/Cleric 5/Yathrinshee 8, giving her 5th arcane and 6th clerical. Meh, still works. Kinda sux both she and Irae are of the same rank in the PrC and wizard wise.
Chronomage 05-04-04, 09:00 AM	Originally posted by Cunning Linguist Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 / Mystic Theurge 7 / Yathrinshee 10... That would make her.. level 23.. might be a problem for the party, but then again, some of them have a successfull Halasters Quaff in there body... I guess level 23 might work just fine.. Just curious, but why put in Mystic Theurge? For RPing purposes I don't really see it, plus it lowers her turning power (course at CR 24...). Still, keeps the CR lower with a higher spellcaster levels, so I getcha kinda. Too bad she doesn't have 9th level spells.
Cunning Linguist 05-04-04, 10:01 AM	Originally posted by Chronomage Just curious, but why put in Mystic Theurge? For RPing purposes I don't really see it, plus it lowers her turning power (course at CR 24...). Still, keeps the CR lower with a higher spellcaster levels, so I getcha kinda. Too bad she doesn't have 9th level spells. With Mystic Theurge, you get both wizard and cleric spells, so Necrospells at 9 level would have a casterlevel of Mystic Theurge X2 + Yathrinshee level x2 + Wiz level + Cleric level.. So a caster level of 32 with all necrospells.
Zanan 05-04-04, 10:05 AM	Unless it is said in the dscription of each class, caster levels do not stack. While necromantic spells and effects stack in the Yathrinshee PrC, they do not with the Mystic Theurge. Thus, you count each MysT level as one CL when determining the necromantic spell stuff. This was cleared earlier when the discussion circled around the True Necromancer. e.g.: Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 / Mystic Theurge 7 / Yathrinshee 10 for necromantic effects yield: Cleric - 3 levels Wizard - 3 levels Mystic Theurge - 7 levels Yathrinshee - 12 levels (6 double) increases = CL 25.
Cunning Linguist 05-04-04, 10:17 AM	It does say: When she casts spells from the school of necromancy, all her spellcasterlevels stack for the purpose of determining her effective caster level. Since a Theurge has both divine and arcane, these casterlevels stack with the Necromancer ability that the Yathrinshee has.
Morgrym 05-04-04, 10:30 AM	It may have been mentioned earlier but what book is the Yathrinshee PrC in?
Cunning Linguist 05-04-04, 10:56 AM	Originally posted by Morgrym It may have been mentioned earlier but what book is the Yathrinshee PrC in? Players Guide to Faerun, under the Vile appendix
Purple Dragon Knight 05-04-04, 04:44 PM	Yes Zanan, it specifically says under the class description that ALL spellcaster levels stack when she casts Necromancy school spells. That's the saving grace of the Yathrinshee class over Mystic Theurge: she can literally command armies of undead if played properly.
Chronomage 05-04-04, 04:53 PM	Originally posted by Cunning Linguist With Mystic Theurge, you get both wizard and cleric spells, so Necrospells at 9 level would have a casterlevel of Mystic Theurge X2 + Yathrinshee level x2 + Wiz level + Cleric level.. So a caster level of 32 with all necrospells. Caster level for purposes of Duration and Damage and such, NOT for maximum spell cast. Check the PGtF, I'm pretty sure on this. Hold on: "Necromancer (Ex): The yathrinshee has unsurpassed power over death. When she casts spells from the school of Necromancy, all her spellcaster levesl stack for the purpose of determining her effective caster level. She does not gain higher-level spells any faster than normal, or gain any additional spells per day, but the spells she casts are much more effective." That means your example is stuck with 8th level spells.
Cunning Linguist 05-04-04, 05:02 PM	Thats why I wanted a build where you have all the 10 levels of Mytic Theurge, then you can cast both clerical and wizard 9 level spells. You still get the Death Ward of the Yathrinshee, you don't need keening if you have Wail of Banshee.
Chronomage 05-04-04, 05:11 PM	This assuming the Yathrinshee getting +6 caster level increase for her full 10 (actually 8 is fine too) levels is not Errated already. Refer to pg. 188 in PGtF. Also, yes, I'm wrong. Looking at that page you need NINE levels to get the +6 caster level increase, with nothing at 10th but Keen. So Irae T'sarran the final count: Cleric 11/Wizard 3/Yathrinshee 9. Dammit, her challenge rating is huge, but she's got 9th level cleric spells, because 11+6=17 and 17 is 9th level spells, and that's all good. Don't think she could do epic spells if she wanted too, though, no feat and all. Does anyone here think a party could effectively face a CR 24 Irae Tsarran? Also, I guess I'd better redo Cabrath: Wizard 3/Cleric 7/Yathrinshee 9. Hrmm, that jumps her to a CR 20. Crud, crud, and crud. However: Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 6/Yathrinshee 6, giving her 7th level Arcane and Divine Spells. She loses out on Zone of Desecration, and some turning power, but Meh. She seems more of a spellcaster than Irae does, so I figure for her it makes sense. Also, this is good because now she doesn't look like a miniature version of Irae.
Chronomage 05-04-04, 05:16 PM	Originally posted by Cunning Linguist could anyone perhaps stat out the Cleric 5/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Yathrinshee 3 version? Sounds like it's the right way to go to power her up, and perhaps put the fear of DM back into the players. Perhaps we could also get a max boost stat version for her also? And perhaps we could also write down some nasty tactic, in round 1, round 2 style. We're you talking about this version? She only get's 9th level cleric spells and 8th level wizard spells. No Wail of the Banshee for this type. 5 (cleric) +10 (Mystic Theuge) +2 (Yathrinshee) = 17 3 (wizard) +10 (Mystic Theurge) +2 (Yathrinshee) = 15 Also, it's a personal choice but I believe it's best to give her as many levels of Yathrinshee as you can to denote her status. Personal opinion. Like they say in many prestige classes, the highest members of a society the PrC is related to might only have 2 or 3 levels in the class, ala the Harper Agent.
Cunning Linguist 05-04-04, 05:21 PM	Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 / Mystic Theurge 10 / Yathrinshee 6 (2 level above the standar NPC in the book) can wop out things like: Mass Harm, Wail of Banshee, Energy Drain, Gate, Implosion.. With stuff like this, how can you not let some levels as Yathrinshee go. She is after all the last boss of a rather large adventure.. if she goes down without a fight, what is there for the players to brag about?
Chronomage 05-04-04, 06:07 PM	Oh, ok. Didn't know about that build, thought effective Wizard level was 15 from Yathrinshee 3 only. Sounds much better.
Chronomage 05-04-04, 06:19 PM	P.S: How would you do the ability scores? On 25 point buy: Strength 8 (cost 0) = 8 Dexterity 12 (cost 4) +2 racial = 14 Constitution 14 (cost 6) -2 racial = 12 Intelligence 14 (cost 6) +2 racial = 16 Wisdom 15 (cost 8) = 15 Charisma 9 (cost 1) +2 racial = 11 With +5 discretionary points from levels, you're still gonna fall short of 19, 19 for spellcasting abs, meaning only one class at best can get the 9th level spells. Even if you do you're best, you can only scratch together 3 more points without screwing over the character, 2 points from con, drop it to a 10 and 1 point from charisma. With that you can bump wisdom to a 16 (no place for the 1 pt) leaving you with a 19 in one ab, and 18 in the other. The reason I put Dexterity at 14 is you need it for armor class, initiative, and reflex saving throws. Theoretically you COULD drop it to a 10 base and combine those 2 points with the 1 from charisma, for a 17 in something. Still, my suggestion is for an inherent bonus dropped in somewhere. On a 32 point buy (my point buy) it is, of course, much easier.
Cunning Linguist 05-04-04, 06:23 PM	She's the major boss, I'd use a 32 point buy system. I gave her 12, 10, 12, 18, 19 and 10. (thats with the +5 from levels) I would also give her some Int boosting stuff, so she can cast 9 level spells.
Chronomage 05-04-04, 06:28 PM	Hrmm, 32 point buy. Strength 8 (don't see a need for high strength when she can cast divine power and righteous might) Dexterity 12 (cost 4) +2 racial = 14 Constitution 14 (cost 6) - 2 racial = 12 Intelligence 15 (cost 8) +2 racial = 17 Wisdom 16 (cost 10) = 16 Charisma 12 (cost 4) + 2 racial = 14 Than put 3 points into Wis for a 19 and 2 into Int for 19 there too. Personally, I'd put 3 into Int and 2 into Wisdom, than buy a Tome of Intellect +2 (inherent bonus) for a 20 in both stats. P.S. the only thing I don't like about this build (referring to class levels) is the relatively low turning power. In my opinion, Irae should be able to bolster her minions to the point no PC cleric could possibly turn them.
Cunning Linguist 05-04-04, 07:26 PM	You could always give the Claw of the Revenancer the ability that you can bolster undead with a +4 or +6 charisma mod. It's not like the PC's are going to use the Claw, and they can't sell it, so giving it an exstra ability could work without having the party being unbalanced after the fight.
Purple Dragon Knight 05-04-04, 07:50 PM	Originally posted by Chronomage So Irae T'sarran the final count: Cleric 11/Wizard 3/Yathrinshee 9. Dammit, her challenge rating is huge, but she's got 9th level cleric spells, because 11+6=17 and 17 is 9th level spells, and that's all good. <snip> The problem with this build is that the last 3 levels of Yathrinshee do not increase her spells per day, just the caster level (as do all epic spellcaster levels).With this build, you effectively have: Spells per day: Cleric: 11 + 4 = 15 --> 8th level spells Wizard: 3 + 4 = 7 --> 4th level spells Caster level: Cleric: 11 + 6 = 17 Wizard: 3 + 6 = 9 Caster level keep increasing after level 20, but not spells per day... you need to take the "Improved Spellcasting" feat to get both, or something like that...
Chronomage 05-04-04, 08:12 PM	Originally posted by Cunning Linguist You could always give the Claw of the Revenancer the ability that you can bolster undead with a +4 or +6 charisma mod. It's not like the PC's are going to use the Claw, and they can't sell it, so giving it an exstra ability could work without having the party being unbalanced after the fight. The claw is an enhancement bonus, so it will only increase the bonus spells per day, not the maximum level she can cast.
Chronomage 05-04-04, 08:15 PM	Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight The problem with this build is that the last 3 levels of Yathrinshee do not increase her spells per day, just the caster level (as do all epic spellcaster levels).With this build, you effectively have: Spells per day: Cleric: 11 + 4 = 15 --> 8th level spells Wizard: 3 + 4 = 7 --> 4th level spells Caster level: Cleric: 11 + 6 = 17 Wizard: 3 + 6 = 9 Caster level keep increasing after level 20, but not spells per day... you need to take the "Improved Spellcasting" feat to get both, or something like that... I have no idea what you're talking about. The levels of Yathrinshee state caster level increases at levels 2, 3, 5, 6, 8, 9. That's a +6 to my caster level so +6 on top of 11 = 17 for ninth level spells. Wizard's caster level is 5th level spells maximum. And just so you know, when it says +1 level of existing arcane and divine spellcasting class, that increases the number of spells known and maximum level cast, as opposed to increased caster level ala Spell power, or the weird threnody of the Yathrinshee for Necromancy spells. Those usually only affect things like damage, duration, range, and area.
Chronomage 05-04-04, 08:31 PM	Off topic of the Irae builds but in regards to Irae: What do you think about making Greater Revenance a corrupt spell, ala Apocalypse from the Sky? Apply a decent ability damage/drain and we might have a workable alternative. The players can wait until AFTER she's cast the spell and is weakened, and than attack her, and as the Undead Army marches on the Dales, the players can hastily put together a makeshift counter spell, using prayers to their deities, and the affects of Irae as focus components? Sounds classic to me.
Ravashack 05-04-04, 10:02 PM	/me gives it a shot Warning: Some of the spells and feats were picked assuming that pretty much anything in the Book of Vile Darkness is up for grabs. 32 point build (with racial adjustments): Wizard 3 (Necromancer)/Cleric of Kiaransalee 4/Mystic Theurge 10/Shadow Adept 1 (Cleric)/Yathrinshee 3 Strength: 10 Dexterity: 10 Constitution: 10 Intelligence: 18 (19) Wisdom: 16 (20) Charisma: 12 Skipping skills, do as you wish, because she's going to meet the skill requirements of the prestige classes as they pop up anyway with an Int of 18. Banned schools: Evocation, Transmutation Feats (Character level, not class level): 1: Spell Focus (Necromancy), Extend Spell 3: Evil Brand 6: Lichloved 9: Greater Spell Focus (Necromancy) 12: Shadow Weave Magic 15: Quicken Spell 18: Improved Initiative 21: Violate Spell (Blade Barrier) Arcane Spells Prepared (4+1/5+1/5+1/5+1/5+1/4+1/3+1/2+1/1+1; save DC 14 + spell level, save DC 15 + spell level for Enchantment or Illusion spells, or save DC 17 + spell level for necromancy spells): 0 - Detect Magic, Acid Splash x 3; Unnerving Gaze 1st - Ray of Enfeeblement, Obscuring Mist, Spirit Worm (x4); 2nd - Spectral Hand, Shadow Mask, Sadism, Entice Gift x 2, Wither Limb; 3rd - Reverse Arrows, Improved Mage Armor, Protection from Energy, Stinking Cloud, Extended Masochism; 4th - Stoneskin, Black Tentacles, Animate Dead, Sinsabur's Baleful Bolt (x2); 5th - Fleshshiver (x2), Cloudkill (x2), Quickened Spirit Worm; 6th - Mass Contagion, Acid Fog, Repulsion, Quickened Entice Gift; 7th - Greater Ironguard, Nybor's Stern Reproof, Waves of Exhaustion; 8th - Abi-Dhalzim's Horrid Wilting (x2) Divine Spells Prepared (6/7+1/6+1/6+1/6+1/5+1/4+1/3+1/2+1/1+1; save DC 15 + spell level, save DC 16 + spell level for Enchantment or Illusion spells, or save DC 18 + spell level for necromancy spells): 0 - Guidance (x6); 1st - Bless, Entropic Shield, Shield of Faith, Cure Light Wounds (x4), Protection from Good; 2nd - Silence (x2), Darkness, Extended Divine Favor, Cure Moderate Wounds (x2), Desecrate; 3rd - Summon Undead III (x2), Flesh Ripper (x2), Cure Serious Wounds (x2), Animate Dead; 4th - Hand of Kiaransalee (Torm), Recitation, Wall of Evil (x2), Divine Power, Cure Critical Wounds, Unholy Blight; 5th - Righteous Might, Extended Divine Power, True Seeing, Flame Strike, Soul Scour, Mass Inflict Light Wounds; 6th - Heal (x2), Extended Spell Resistance, Blade Barrier, Create Undead; 7th - Fortunate Fate, Blasphemy, Repulsion, Violated Blade Barrier; 8th - Wall of Greater Dispel Magic, Unholy Aura; 9th - Implosion, Summon Monster IX. Domains: Undeath (Gain Extra Turning as a bonus feat), Evil (You cast evil spells at +1 caster level). Preparation: Irae is assumed to have Dimensionally Locked the entire temple beforehand, have General of Undeath already up, and have animated the maximum amount of undead possible for her. If not, take out a Wall of Greater Dispel Magic for Dimensional Lock. Set a Wall of Greater Dispel Magic up at the entrance to Irae's room. Follow up with a Wall of Evil, hostile side facing outside, immediately behind the Greater Dispel Magic Wall. Then go on ahead with her power up suite (Unholy Aura, Fortunate Fate, Stoneskin, Improved Mage Armor, Greater Ironguard, Extended Divine Power, Extended Divine Favor, Extended Masochism, Sadism), cast Summon Monster IX, and ready a Horrid Wilting on the first person to open the door to her room. Next turn, cast Repulsion and fire off a quickened Spirit Worm. Edit: Missed a word, and forgot that Violate spell added a spell level to the spell.
Chronomage 05-04-04, 10:07 PM	Was anyone else saddened that for all her minions throughout the castle, the only Chunks of Exploding Meat (a larger version of meat shields) that she had with her were 2 revenant officers, and a bebelith? I like the last posters idea, of having a larger battle with the PCs. Though it does present the problem of adding massive numbers to the EL.
Ravashack 05-04-04, 10:57 PM	Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight The problem with this build is that the last 3 levels of Yathrinshee do not increase her spells per day, just the caster level (as do all epic spellcaster levels).With this build, you effectively have: Spells per day: Cleric: 11 + 4 = 15 --> 8th level spells Wizard: 3 + 4 = 7 --> 4th level spells Caster level: Cleric: 11 + 6 = 17 Wizard: 3 + 6 = 9 Caster level keep increasing after level 20, but not spells per day... you need to take the "Improved Spellcasting" feat to get both, or something like that... Fortunately, that is incorrect. Casters gain spells up to the normal maximum of 20th caster level, NOT until they hit character level 20. That means a Cleric 10/Fighter 10 would still get new spells a day if he gained a character level and put it in Cleric.
Chronomage 05-04-04, 10:59 PM	Originally posted by Ravashack Fortunately, that is incorrect. Casters gain spells up to the normal maximum of 20th caster level, NOT until they hit character level 20. That means a Cleric 10/Fighter 10 would still get new spells a day if he gained a character level and put it in Cleric. Oh, THAT'S what he was talking about. I misunderstood.
Chronomage 05-04-04, 11:17 PM	Speaking of Iraes equipment: How do you purchase equipment for a drow character, or a character with a template that has both level adjustment and cr +, but with different modifiers. Close case: Drow (+2 level adjustment, +1 CR) Reach: Vampire (+8 level adjustment, +2 CR) My solution is to give money for a race that has a player optional race, as per that NPC ECL. If they have any other templates (e.g. Lycanthrope, Lich, Vampire, Half-Fiend) I usually just ignore them.
Purple Dragon Knight 05-05-04, 01:34 AM	Originally posted by Ravashack Fortunately, that is incorrect. Casters gain spells up to the normal maximum of 20th caster level, NOT until they hit character level 20. That means a Cleric 10/Fighter 10 would still get new spells a day if he gained a character level and put it in Cleric. Epic Level Handbook, p.7, second last paragraph: "For spellcasters, your caster level continues to increase after 20th level. Thus, a 23rd-level wizard casts as a 23rd-level character, while a 24th-level paladin's caster level is 12th (one half her class level). However, your spells per day don't increase after 20th level. The only way to gain additional spells per day (other than the bonus spells gained from a high ability score) is to select Improved Spell Capacity epic feat." Thus, for any Irae character build that counts on giving her more powerful spells after level 20, you need to give her Improved Spell Capacity for every spell slot... so this can become expensive, especially in a build that raises both cleric and wizard caster level. This is why I was mentioning it to you guys, as level 20 is the limit that you have to account for when planning her how powerful her spells will be. In light of this, Cleric 7 / Wizard 3 / Yathinshee 10 is the best you can do if you want to maximize on the Yathrinshee thing (7th level cleric spells, 2nd level wizard spells). Alternatively, you can go Cleric 20, which is much simpler and give you 9th-level spells... or Cleric 7 / Wiz 3 / Mystic Theurge 10 (9th level cleric spells, 7th level wizard spells, but low hit points). Any other combo is kinda lost on you, unless you use the other FR stuff (hierophant, archmage, divine disciple, etc.) Edit: Hmm... after reading the description of Improved Spell Capacity again, it appears that this 20th level cap applies only to class levels, NOT character level. This should be clearer, but the example they give under the feat (Ranger5/Sorcerer22) pretty much implies that the Ranger levels were taken first, then the Sorcerer levels, which would have brought the character to Ranger5/Sorcerer15 at level 20. Obviously spell progression continues until caster level 20, otherwise the sample character would not be eligible for Improved Spell Capacity. Bottom line: yeah, forget what I said! :D
Ravashack 05-05-04, 01:52 AM	And if you note, the examples they give are of casters that have > 20 class levels in the same casting class. And if you open up the ELH and look at the updates they give in the back for every single epic caster that has more than one casting class, (like say, oh, The Simbul), you'll note that she has two sets of arcane spells that she can cast a day, because she has 20 levels of Sorceror and 10 in Wizard. Edit: More examples. Straight from the SRD Epic section, Epic Prestige classes. Spells: The epic arcane trickster’s caster level increases by 1 per level gained above 10th. The epic arcane trickster continues to gain new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) at each new level, up to the maximum spells per day and spells known of the arcane spellcasting class to which the arcane trickster belonged before adding the prestige class. Repeat that for Eldritch Knight and Loremaster. Spells: When an odd-numbered mystic theurge level above 10th is gained she gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable), as if she had gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class she belonged to previously, up to the maximum spells per day and spells known by that class. Her caster level in that class also increases by +1. When an even-numbered mystic theurge level above 10th is gained she gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable), as if she had gained a level in a divine spellcasting class she belonged to previously, up to the maximum spells per day and spells known by that class. Her caster level in that class also increases by +1. And for Epic classes: Spells per Day/Spells Known: At each agent retriever level, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he or she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class to which he or she belonged before adding the prestige class level. If already an epic spellcaster, the character gains only the benefit noted under the Spells entry for that epic class. He or she does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If the character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming an agent retriever, the player must decide to which class to add the new level for the purpose of determining spells per day. Repeat for every single epic casting class. It's pretty evident that it is NOT talking about character level, but the spellcaster's effective class level (for spells per day).
Chronomage 05-05-04, 02:08 AM	He's right PDK. I've played at enough tables, in the RPGA and otherwise, to know that's the way it's done.
Ravashack 05-05-04, 02:54 AM	I would say character level + ECL = level you use to determine cash available, but that's just me.
Chronomage 05-05-04, 03:03 AM	I thought about doing that, but the problem is that some creatures have a huge difference between CR and ECL, meaning that you take down a 5th level vampire (CR 7, 8 if drow) who has an ECL of 13 or 14, practically giving double the gold for only half the price. Also, that much gold beyond the CR raises the CR IMO. I think I'll use ECL of character or CR as level, whichever is lower. I'll have to check CotSQ for how they added it up. Most of the drow in Szith Morcane seem to have gold somewhere between their total class levels, and their ECL.
Zanan 05-05-04, 03:36 AM	Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight Yes Zanan, it specifically says under the class description that ALL spellcaster levels stack when she casts Necromancy school spells. That's the saving grace of the Yathrinshee class over Mystic Theurge: she can literally command armies of undead if played properly. Indeed, but that holds true only for the Yathrinshee PrC and straight Wiz and Clr levels. As I said, the same thing has been asked with regard to the Necromancy (Ex) of the True Necromancer and was ruled that the Double Levels of a MysT do not stack with one another. As for equipment, she gets the ECL +2 for that just like any other character, as has been clarified by the Wizards' custserv: +++ A level adjusted character is effectively a higher level than it would be if you were simply basing this on character class. You do count the level adjustment when determining an NPC's gear value. Thanks! **Please quote this e-mail in any reply.** **************************************** ************************** Darrin Wizards of the Coast - Customer Service +++ 32 PB is a must for her and my starting scores for a 1st level drow cleric would be: STR 14, DEX 14, CON 13, INT 14, WIS 15, CHA 12 ... a 1st level wizard: STR 10, DEX 12, CON 13, INT 17, WIS 14, CHA 16 Mix those around a bit ... don't end up Min/Maxing (STR 8 for a cleric? Come on, she isn't a halfling ;) ) and give her some decent equipment (just like the WotSQ - charas get).
Chronomage 05-05-04, 03:46 AM	Originally posted by Zanan Indeed, but that holds true only for the Yathrinshee PrC and straight Wiz and Clr levels. As I said, the same thing has been asked with regard to the Necromancy (Ex) of the True Necromancer and was ruled that the Double Levels of a MysT do not stack with one another. As for equipment, she gets the ECL +2 for that just like any other character, as has been clarified by the Wizards' custserv: +++ A level adjusted character is effectively a higher level than it would be if you were simply basing this on character class. You do count the level adjustment when determining an NPC's gear value. Thanks! **Please quote this e-mail in any reply.** **************************************** ************************** Darrin Wizards of the Coast - Customer Service +++ 32 PB is a must for her and my starting scores for a 1st level drow cleric would be: STR 14, DEX 14, CON 13, INT 14, WIS 15, CHA 12 ... a 1st level wizard: STR 10, DEX 12, CON 13, INT 17, WIS 14, CHA 16 Mix those around a bit ... don't end up Min/Maxing (STR 8 for a cleric? Come on, she isn't a halfling ;) ) and give her some decent equipment (just like the WotSQ - charas get). So, you're saying the Drow Vampire Assassin, Maas, a 13th level classer, with an ECL of +10, should get the gold of a 23rd level NPC?! Well, I guess they screwed up in game design, cause I didn't see any artifacts among his gear. I suspect the ECL counts only for standard ECL races, such as the Faerunian possibilities that have +2 or less. Once it becomes +3 or more, the gold for NPC level is most likely based off of CR.
Chronomage 05-05-04, 03:51 AM	You show me this ruling, I'd like to see it. The mystic theurge and the Yathrinshee to a lesser extent, both get +1 level of existing spellcaster divine and arcane classes, meaning that a 5th level cleric, 5th level Wizard, 10th level mystic theurge can cast with the correct ability scores 8th level spells in both classes. This is the way it's been done in Dragon, the RPGA, and every gaming group I've sat with for the last 2 years. (I was gaming before that, but I only heard about the class 2 years ago, so) Also, once they get Mystic Theurge 22, he can cast Ninth level spells from both class. P.S. Looking over this post, I realized the speaker sounds kinda angry. But I would point out he's not insulting. More frustrated, because either we're not understanding each other, or one of us is making a mistake in our argument/reasoning.
Ravashack 05-05-04, 04:43 AM	Originally posted by Zanan Indeed, but that holds true only for the Yathrinshee PrC and straight Wiz and Clr levels. As I said, the same thing has been asked with regard to the Necromancy (Ex) of the True Necromancer and was ruled that the Double Levels of a MysT do not stack with one another. That ruling makes no sense. For one thing, the Yathrinshee's Necromancy ability explicitly says "all her spellcaster levels" stack, not "only her wizard and cleric levels." Also, if that ruling was applied, that would mean that if she was a Cleric/Wizard/Mystic Theurge and took a level of Yathrinshee, her caster level for necromancy spells would irrevocably DROP to 6 (3 if Sorceror was picked), and then start back up again. That really doesn't sound like "much more effective" to me. You also have to consider the fact that this is pretty much an NPC class. You HAVE to be a Female Drow Cleric of Kiaransalee to get in. (Even guys are barred!)
Zanan 05-05-04, 11:17 AM	Originally posted by Chronomage So, you're saying the Drow Vampire Assassin, Maas, a 13th level classer, with an ECL of +10, should get the gold of a 23rd level NPC?! Well, I guess they screwed up in game design, cause I didn't see any artifacts among his gear. I suspect the ECL counts only for standard ECL races, such as the Faerunian possibilities that have +2 or less. Once it becomes +3 or more, the gold for NPC level is most likely based off of CR. Common sense should be the virtue any decent DM should possess. As in: don't go over the top with this, but remember that you will hardly ever meet a succubus (ECL 12) with nothing more to show for her 355 years of life than what she carries in the MM. Remember too that your vampire lad will have lived some 2 to 500 years longer than the average 13 or 15th level assassin, don't you think. And I do not expect that he waited in his vault till some adventure band happens by ... Jsut MHO, of course. As for the Mystic Theurge, that was debated on the General D&D boards (if I remember it correctly - the place, not the result listed that is) and the official answer given there. Obviously, it should be FAQ'ed by now. (Rest assured, as one of my main NPCs was a True Necromancer and I kept a keen interest on it, this is no hearsay-argument. Luckily for her though, the Yathrinshee arrived and the MysT went from her statblock at last.)
Zanan 05-05-04, 11:18 AM	Originally posted by Ravashack You also have to consider the fact that this is pretty much an NPC class. You HAVE to be a Female Drow Cleric of Kiaransalee to get in. (Even guys are barred!) And rightly so! The clergy of the Revenancer has always been female and so it should continue :D Apart from that, it is not my idea to keep the MysT level from stacking with one another, so don't shoot the messenger, will you? ;)
Ravashack 05-05-04, 01:27 PM	Oh nono, you misunderstand. If the ruling on True Necromancer--a class that is open to FAR more people compared to the Yathrinshee--applied to the Yathrinshee, it's rather odd that they don't put in clarifying text in the ability itself explicitly stating that, especially since this is coming out way way later than True Necromancer. I would wait for an errata before deciding that a decision on a completely different class applied to this one too.
Purple Dragon Knight 05-05-04, 04:30 PM	Where was the True Necromancer published? was it in Tome and Blood or some other 3.0 splatbook?
Cunning Linguist 05-05-04, 05:12 PM	Yup, Tome and Blood, page 69.
Purple Dragon Knight 05-05-04, 06:52 PM	Then you can't apply 3.0 rulings to this new 3.5 PrC... until we get an official errata from the FR design team, the official word is that all spellcaster levels stack. It seems pretty straightforward to me (i.e. not written in a confusing manner). Kiaransalee seems to be the FR "Queen of Undeath" so I am not surprised that this PrC would make a character the ultimate Necromancer. My final build for Irae will be: Cleric 11 / Wizard 3 / Yathrinshee 10 This way I can use 21 effective levels of Rebuke/Command undead on the PCs, 9th-level cleric spells, and 5th-level wizard spells (Improved Invisibility, Stoneskin, Wall of Force)
Chronomage 05-05-04, 06:57 PM	Wait a minute: you agree that that build has 9th level cleric spells? What were we arguing about? As long as you understand she'd have 9th level cleric and 5th level wizard at 9th Yathrinshee too, and that the only thing she gets as a 10th level Yathrinshee is Keen.
Chronomage 05-05-04, 07:02 PM	And what are you saying about the Mystic Theurge, seeing as that seems to be the class you're having personal problems with? As far as I know, having 3 levels of Wizard, 3 levels of Cleric, and 10 levels of MyTh, you should have 7th levels spells both arcane and divine. And if you were to take 6 levels of Yathrinshee (for a further +4 spellcasting class levels) you would have 9th level spells in both. Right? Because your spellcasting level does not stop increasing bonus spells and maximum spell levels until you hit the 20th level cap in both classes. At which point you need those epic feats, already discussed.
Ravashack 05-05-04, 07:05 PM	Read his edited post Chronomage.
Chronomage 05-05-04, 07:24 PM	I don't get it. What am I looking for?
Ravashack 05-05-04, 07:47 PM	Edit: Hmm... after reading the description of Improved Spell Capacity again, it appears that this 20th level cap applies only to class levels, NOT character level. This should be clearer, but the example they give under the feat (Ranger5/Sorcerer22) pretty much implies that the Ranger levels were taken first, then the Sorcerer levels, which would have brought the character to Ranger5/Sorcerer15 at level 20. Obviously spell progression continues until caster level 20, otherwise the sample character would not be eligible for Improved Spell Capacity. Bottom line: yeah, forget what I said! CTRL+F "Last edited by Purple Dragon Knight" to find it faster, then scroll up a little bit to see the text.
Chronomage 05-05-04, 08:19 PM	Oh it was PDK! I thought we were arguing with Zanan. (the drugs, son, get rid of the drugs...)
Zanan 05-06-04, 03:50 AM	On a sidenote: Remember that both the True Necromancer as well as the Yathrinshee do not get spellcaster levels at each level. The True Necromancer has to decide to which class he hands his SL (he needs arcane and divine SL to start the class and may improve one of both and ends up shorter than a straight necromancer or cleric, unless he uses necromantic spells), while the Yathrinshee gets a double SL for six of her ten levels, effectivly gaining 12 SL who only stack for necromantic effects. Thus, she "looses" 4 SL if compared to a straight character who gets a SL with each level (though only with one class). The MysT gets 20 SL during the cause of his life, which would "only" stack for necromantic (or other, stacking) effects. I think you see why the True Necromancer and the Yathrinshee are allowed to have their levels stack, while the MysT has is not. That is just my line of thought though.
Purple Dragon Knight 05-06-04, 11:25 AM	Good point Zanan! This is why I've decided to use the Yathrinshee as described. Her necromantic spells might be powerful yes, but she pays for it in other ways, especially through a lower spell progression than Mystic Theurge.
Chronomage 05-06-04, 05:34 PM	So, to everyone involved in the discussion, how many levels higher would you bounce Irae for a 4 person party, than she is in 3rd edition? Keeping track that Yathrinshee requires 3 levels of wizard and reduces pace of Spellcasting, and she needs 9th level spells. In the book shes a 20th level cleric, CR 21, and the Characters party will be composed of 17th and 18th level characters by the time of the encounter. Builds I've seen so far are: Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Yathrinshee 6 CR 23 Cleric 11/Wizard 3/Yathrinshee 9 CR 24 There was something else, but I missed it. Anywho, how many levels does she have to play around with vs. a 4 person party? A 6 person party? Just curious.
fergsta2 07-08-04, 10:59 AM	Anyone have a build with a stat block yet where she can actually cast 9 level spells?
warlockco 07-08-04, 11:49 PM	For such an important NPC and one that is supposed to give the PCs a challenge and a possible TPK, I would go with: Str 12, Dex 13, Con 13, Int 18, Wis 18, Cha 18, after racial mods but before advancing her in level. But then again I roll up all my Major NPCs and build them as a PC. I haven't sat down to create my version yet for 3.5, mainly because it will be a while before my players get there. And I will throw out the timeline that they have in the adventure too, this way the PCs have more time to grow before they attack her. Since my version will have Epic Spellcasting for her Cleric spells. Also she will be smart about her magic items. Giving her a Periapt of Wisdom, Headband of Intellect, Ring of Protection, and so on. Yes my players end up with alot of magic items, but I also will do things to those items alot. Putting restrictions on them at times. Like alignment or racial restrictions, so they will have to go to a Thayan Enclave or Sssmeth (sp?) the Drow Wizard city. On anything that I go through the bother of customizing, my players know they will be in for a fight, but then again they will get a few nice toys to play with too.
ruleslawyer 07-09-04, 02:11 AM	Wealth should be based on CR, not ECL. Quite simply, CR and ECL are apples and oranges; one applies to NPCs, the other to PCs. If you're using the one (i.e., dealing with an NPC), then the NPC wealth rules apply, and the NPC's wealth is then based off CR. This also dovetails with the overall rules philosophy governing wealth by level and CR; an NPC's wealth is supposed to form part of his challenge rating and to be a reward appropriate to PCs defeating a foe of that challenge rating. By contrast, ECL is partially based on the fact that PCs get more cash than NPCs (one reason why it's universally higher than CR) and has nothing to do with reward for an encounter, but rather with ensuring that the PC in question is appropriately equipped to deal with encounters of CR = his ECL (plus 3 party members of equal ECL). As for Irae: The problem is that no multiclassed spellcasting class beats the straight cleric (or Clr/PrC) for raw combat power at these levels. I'd keep her as a straight cleric, and maybe make some of the lesser bad guys yathrinshees. The latter PrC is really better for a support necromancer than a combat powerhouse.
fergsta2 07-09-04, 07:58 AM	aren't the yathrinshees the most high of kiriansalee's worshippers? I would make the lower clerics the powerhouses, and have her, ultra powerful but physically weak, drained from all the research, but here spells will be deadly. as a comparrisson, her clerics will be of a lower ECL, like a bunch of Darth Vaders, and she will be like the Emperor. there will be no melee for her, just raw power...so she will need some meat sheilds to keep the barbarian away from her. We are discussing the whole thing over here too: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=255217 Just to keep it all in one thread, and we would love to see any 3.5 upgrades or modifications anyone has made to the villains.