Post/Author/DateTime	Post
scatode 03-17-07, 09:13 AM	With the impressive work done for the elves i was wondering if a netbook for Dwarves will be started:)
Lord Karsus 03-19-07, 12:34 AM	-My reason: No, because Dwarves are crude and smelly creatures. :P -The real reason: No, because they already have Dwarves Deep, which, for the most part, is an "All-Dwarf" accessory book.
Old Sage 03-19-07, 12:48 AM	I do believe Delzounblood was, at one time, working on something "netbook-related" to the dwarven race. You should probably ask him.
The Ubbergeek 03-19-07, 11:25 AM	I agree wholy - if at least to satisfy those dwarf fans grognards. :P ;) Well, if elves can have one, why not? Maybe it will change my ideas about them a bit.
Alediran 03-19-07, 01:25 PM	The major problem in doing a Dwarven Netbook is the lack of lore about the Stout Folk. Except for Dwarvens Deep we don't know much about dwarven history. With the elves we have Evermeet: Island of the Elves and Realms of the Elves. Those books give us plenty of elven history to create something big. Not counting the complexity of elven life (another big chapter in the Elven Netbook), magical items and artifacts (lots and lots), Prestige classes (it's enormous)
Eladrinstar 03-20-07, 02:03 AM	The majority of the FR fandom probably doesn't want to have a netbook about a race, that while it has it's points of interest, at first glance appears to be nothing more than hairy, fat, short people who live underground. It reminds us far too much of our fellow gamers and in some cases (thankfully not me) ourselves.
hedgeknight 03-20-07, 08:50 AM	There is also information in Races of Stone and Hammer and Helm: Guidebook to Dwarves by Green Ronin press - great book! -g-
The Ubbergeek 03-20-07, 11:18 AM	The majority of the FR fandom probably doesn't want to have a netbook about a race, that while it has it's points of interest, at first glance appears to be nothing more than hairy, fat, short people who live underground. It reminds us far too much of our fellow gamers and in some cases (thankfully not me) ourselves. There is also the case of some of the less savory points of the dwarven culture - like conformism, traditionalism, and all that. A D20 token dwarf would surely vote for a (moderate) rightwing party. :mad: :rolleyes:
Alediran 03-20-07, 11:52 AM	Elves = artists, philosophers, thinkers Dwarves = workforce, tinkers.
Lord Karsus 03-20-07, 01:25 PM	A D20 token dwarf would surely vote for a (moderate) rightwing party. :mad: :rolleyes: -Hey, I'm a moderate Right-Winger (none of that American Theocracy stuff, though), and I take offense to that assertation! :P
GothicDan 03-20-07, 07:40 PM	I'm a centrist. Oh, wait.... That's why I'm a Sun Elf and not one of those frivolous Moon Elf hippies.
Dark Wizard 03-20-07, 08:47 PM	I'm a centrist. Oh, wait.... That's why I'm a Sun Elf and not one of those frivolous Moon Elf hippies. Best of both worlds?
bitter thorn 03-20-07, 10:39 PM	Elves = artists, philosophers, thinkers Dwarves = workforce, tinkers. While I realize that this is a broad generalization, I must disagree. Dwarves in the Realms place a tremendous value on knowledge, lore, discovery, history, exploration, religion, art and education. Don't confuse the stereotype with the established lore, please.
The Ubbergeek 03-21-07, 12:52 AM	While I realize that this is a broad generalization, I must disagree. Dwarves in the Realms place a tremendous value on knowledge, lore, discovery, history, exploration, religion, art and education. Don't confuse the stereotype with the established lore, please. But they tend to be traditionalists and conservative. ;) And of course, very lawfull-turned.
Alediran 03-21-07, 11:28 AM	While I realize that this is a broad generalization, I must disagree. Dwarves in the Realms place a tremendous value on knowledge, lore, discovery, history, exploration, religion, art and education. Don't confuse the stereotype with the established lore, please. Don't worry, I don't. What I enumerated was the average of elves and dwarves.
Jenkins007 03-25-07, 12:53 AM	Honestly, the smaller races have such a little (pun intended) fan base that there isn't enough written about them. Also the whole of the dwarven race is stinky.
bitter thorn 03-25-07, 03:11 AM	Honestly, the smaller races have such a little (pun intended) fan base that there isn't enough written about them. Also the whole of the dwarven race is stinky. :pbbbtt: ;)
WALNUTT 03-30-07, 01:54 AM	I agree with thorn on this one, dwarves are very noble and they demand respect from everyone. Even if they are smelly couldn't they write a netbook about how the stout folk recived their pungent aroma?
Xavier_of_Cormyr 03-30-07, 03:38 PM	The elves get waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much attention in 3e, but that's FR for you. That's just the way it is. They've played a more dominant role in the evolutiion of the realms since Ed first put pen to paper. I suspect there will eventually be a Elves of Faerun book coming our way on of these days, and hopefully a Dwarves of Faerun will follow that shortly. I like dwarves, and the sterotypes given to them way back in the first D&D Basic Set have stuck with them all these years. Elves have evolved into a wide range of interesting subraces, DETAILED histories, culture, magic, and every other aspect; where as dwarves have gotten 1% the share that their pointy earred friends recieve...
Lord Karsus 03-31-07, 12:08 AM	Even if they are smelly couldn't they write a netbook about how the stout folk recived their pungent aroma? -Some stories are better left untold...;) I suspect there will eventually be a Elves of Faerun book coming our way on of these days... -Already on it. Elves have evolved into a wide range of interesting subraces, DETAILED histories, culture, magic, and every other aspect... -Elves do not evolve.
The Ubbergeek 03-31-07, 10:28 AM	-Elves do not evolve. Everything changes, mon ami, nothing is ever static. Even the long-haired pals... ;)
Lord Karsus 03-31-07, 06:07 PM	Everything changes, mon ami, nothing is ever static. Even the long-haired pals... ;) -This is a fantasy setting, though. We don't play by the normal rules. If you stick a Sun Elf in the desert, and leave him and a female there for ten thousand years, you'll find more Sun Elves when you come back. If you leave a Moon Elf in an arctic wasteland with a Moon Elf of the opposite sex, when you return, you'll have more Moon Elves, and nothing more/less. -Elves were created with specific attributes, and they do not change, even as other species undergo evolution and what not. The Sun and Moon Elves who first arrived in Realmspace tens of thousands of years ago are the same kind of Sun and Moon Elves that exist today.
The Ubbergeek 03-31-07, 08:00 PM	-This is a fantasy setting, though. We don't play by the normal rules. If you stick a Sun Elf in the desert, and leave him and a female there for ten thousand years, you'll find more Sun Elves when you come back. If you leave a Moon Elf in an arctic wasteland with a Moon Elf of the opposite sex, when you return, you'll have more Moon Elves, and nothing more/less. -Elves were created with specific attributes, and they do not change, even as other species undergo evolution and what not. The Sun and Moon Elves who first arrived in Realmspace tens of thousands of years ago are the same kind of Sun and Moon Elves that exist today. Methink they does, only very, very slowly..... Look at the Star Elves, who are, if my memory is not betraying me, a sort of ancestral stock or at least descendant of it.
Lord Karsus 03-31-07, 08:52 PM	Methink they does, only very, very slowly..... Look at the Star Elves, who are, if my memory is not betraying me, a sort of ancestral stock or at least descendant of it. -The Star Elves are very problematic, and are not a good example. They were just thrown in, with no racial history or anything. The best thing you can do with them is ignore them, if you ask me! -But, anyway, no, there is no canon information that says that Star Elves are of ancestral stock to Sun, Moon, and other contemporary Elves. If anything, they demonstrate my point the best. The Star Elves have lived in isolation for about six thousand years. That means no mixed breeding, and so on. Yet, the Star Elves of today are still of the same exact genetics as the Star Elves of six thousand years ago. Darwin's principle in inaction.
Xavier_of_Cormyr 04-01-07, 12:32 PM	-Elves do not evolve I mean in the game of D&D... they've come a long way from living in treehouses & all being fighter mages with a level cap of 12... hell, there weren't even drow way back then
The Ubbergeek 04-01-07, 01:27 PM	Let also also remember guys that it's not Tolkien, and the elves of FR are mortals - long-lived, but they don't have really extremely much differences from other races. They are not as static and fading, and not inherently magical.
GothicDan 04-01-07, 04:00 PM	Um? The Elves of FR are effectively immortal and are innately linked to the Weave. And according to the CBoE, Elves did NOT evolve, and each of the subraces were created by divine interaction.
The Ubbergeek 04-01-07, 05:23 PM	The elves dies of old age like anyone else, and they are not innatly magical. The subraces may have been created or 'patroned' by gods, that stay to question. And you underplayed the tolkienisms accumalted over the years... :rolleyes: Can we have elves, dwarves and all without Tolkien and without hearing 'they are not different but humans in funny suits'? :mad: Also, you maybe mix the flavour texts who is often very pov, hearsay and all.
GothicDan 04-01-07, 05:57 PM	The elves dies of old age like anyone else, and they are not innatly magical. The subraces may have been created or 'patroned' by gods, that stay to question. Obviously you haven't actually read much of the material on the Elves.
bitter thorn 04-01-07, 10:39 PM	I find it ironic that a thread about a Dwarven netbook is turning into a debate about the nature of Elves.:banghead: What happened to Delzounbloods tentative Dwarven netbook?:confused:
GothicDan 04-01-07, 11:43 PM	If I know more about Elves, I'd sincerely have more to contribute to this discussion. But their anti-arcane tendencies coupled with their aesthetic tendencies are enough for me to not like them, terribly.
bitter thorn 04-02-07, 03:09 AM	The retcon for Dwarves now being arcanist is more than a little awkward. The "Umm, it's always been that way." retcons always are. For many of us, though, the Dwarven ascetic is appealing and easy to identify with. A culture that is hard working, skilled, tough, tenacious, studious, loyal, brave, artistic, pragmatic, and down to earth is one that many of us find laudable and fun to play. I think there are merits to playing all of the principal demi human cultures. I simply find Dwarves to be the easiest to identify with. I really think that Dwarves are more popular at the gaming table than the supplements and novels reflect. Of course this is a subjective judgement based on my own experiences and tastes, but such is the nature of entertainment and fiction. I wonder if Dwarves and other demi humans did poorly in sales of the 2nd ed Complete Book of [insert demi human race] when compared to Elves. Evidently WotC believes that Dwarven books wouldn't sell very well, or they'd put some on the market. I wonder what the market research says. Oh well, I just wish they would put out more books focused on Dwarves.
Xavier_of_Cormyr 04-02-07, 08:56 AM	I'll say this... the Complete book of Dwarves was one of my first 2e accessories. I don't have a answer as to why the elves get more press in FR other than to say "eh, that's just the way it is" Why don't we mix things up... have a good run of "gnome only" products! :P
Lord Karsus 04-02-07, 10:37 AM	The elves dies of old age like anyone else, and they are not innatly magical. The subraces may have been created or 'patroned' by gods, that stay to question. -Elves pass to Arvandor when their mortal bodies fail them, after many, many centuries. Are the actually immortal, meaning that they never die? No. Are they effectivley immortal, meaning that, in game terms, or Realms terms, you don't have to worry about them dying for a very long time? Yes. -Are Elves innately magical? Yes, yes they are. This is why they are such a magical culture. Their connection with the Weave has not hard D&D facts/stats/attributes to back it up, asides for the facts that Elves are resistant to magic, are resistant to the elements, can see in low-light, yada, yada, yada. -Were all of the Elven races created by a specific member of the Seldarine? Yes. This is one of the reasons why Star Elves have not been integrated well- they have no patron, they have gone so far as to state that Star Elves aren't particularly religious, though they do respect Corellon Larethian. I find it ironic that a thread about a Dwarven netbook is turning into a debate about the nature of Elves.:banghead: -Elves are just more interesting. :D
bitter thorn 04-03-07, 03:47 AM	--Elves are just more interesting. :D You're killing me!:uh-huh:
Alediran 04-03-07, 10:53 AM	You're killing me!:uh-huh: You have no idea :D
Lord Karsus 04-03-07, 09:54 PM	You're killing me!:uh-huh: -You know, a lot of people have said that to me over the years...;)
The Ubbergeek 04-04-07, 11:18 AM	-Elves pass to Arvandor when their mortal bodies fail them, after many, many centuries. Are the actually immortal, meaning that they never die? No. Are they effectivley immortal, meaning that, in game terms, or Realms terms, you don't have to worry about them dying for a very long time? Yes. -Are Elves innately magical? Yes, yes they are. This is why they are such a magical culture. Their connection with the Weave has not hard D&D facts/stats/attributes to back it up, asides for the facts that Elves are resistant to magic, are resistant to the elements, can see in low-light, yada, yada, yada. -Were all of the Elven races created by a specific member of the Seldarine? Yes. This is one of the reasons why Star Elves have not been integrated well- they have no patron, they have gone so far as to state that Star Elves aren't particularly religious, though they do respect Corellon Larethian. -Elves are just more interesting. :D Never forget its what it is said - the truth may be different. ;) Lore and truth may be different... And agreed on the second stance. ;)
GothicDan 04-04-07, 11:29 AM	And lore always trumps mechanics, so. ;)
The Ubbergeek 04-04-07, 12:29 PM	And lore always trumps mechanics, so. ;) Not really. Again, lore is a big word.
ShadezofDis 04-04-07, 12:33 PM	So I think the answer of the OP's question is; Doesn't look like it's happening right now, but AFAIK this has been a work of love (ie. not getting paid but putting in the time and effort anyways because we love this stuff, not that I worked on the netbook, but I love this stuff all the same :p) so the real answer is; Why don't you start a Dwarven netbook? or PM Delzounbloods and see what's going on with his/her project and if there's anything you can do to help :)
GothicDan 04-04-07, 12:53 PM	Not really. Again, lore is a big word. No, really! We're not lying! It's the truth. :)
ShadezofDis 04-04-07, 01:24 PM	No, really! We're not lying! It's the truth. :) I was gonna say that, but didn't want to have two jinxs in one day ;)
Lord Karsus 04-04-07, 06:32 PM	Never forget its what it is said - the truth may be different. ;) Lore and truth may be different... And agreed on the second stance. ;) Not really. Again, lore is a big word. No, really! We're not lying! It's the truth. :) -Indeed, it is.
20102000 04-05-07, 08:02 AM	The major problem in doing a Dwarven Netbook is the lack of lore about the Stout Folk. Except for Dwarvens Deep we don't know much about dwarven history. I've got to disagree with that. I compiled a quick canon timeline for my current FR campaign with features dwarves heavily. The time line consisted of just dwarven history upto DR 25, and ran to 12 pages. There's plenty of lore out there, its just not been put in a book.
Lord Karsus 04-06-07, 05:55 PM	I've got to disagree with that. I compiled a quick canon timeline for my current FR campaign with features dwarves heavily. The time line consisted of just dwarven history upto DR 25, and ran to 12 pages. There's plenty of lore out there, its just not been put in a book. -The problem with FR Dwarf lore is this: A) It is spread out, which just makes things less likely to get noticed, and makes it annoying to research (I really know, trust me). B) Dwarven lore doesn't really have depth. What I mean is that things are mentioned, but many of the circumstances, many of the after effects, and so on are not. Case in point, the Thunder Blessing. Alright, why did this happen? How has it changed Dwarven society, what, with a whole bunch of Dwarflings running around. That might not be the best example, since the Thunder Blessing is a fairly new idea, but I am sure you get my point. A lot of Dwarven lore is 2D, not 3D.
bitter thorn 04-06-07, 07:25 PM	-The problem with FR Dwarf lore is this: A) It is spread out, which just makes things less likely to get noticed, and makes it annoying to research (I really know, trust me). B) Dwarven lore doesn't really have depth. What I mean is that things are mentioned, but many of the circumstances, many of the after effects, and so on are not. Case in point, the Thunder Blessing. Alright, why did this happen? How has it changed Dwarven society, what, with a whole bunch of Dwarflings running around. That might not be the best example, since the Thunder Blessing is a fairly new idea, but I am sure you get my point. A lot of Dwarven lore is 2D, not 3D. Regretably I must agree, but I honestly think that there is a market, and the available lore makes a great starting point.
bitter thorn 04-06-07, 07:27 PM	You're killing me!:uh-huh: -You know, a lot of people have said that to me over the years...;) :rofl:
ShadezofDis 04-06-07, 07:34 PM	Regretably I must agree, but I honestly think that there is a market, and the available lore makes a great starting point. Well, the thing about netbooks is that someone decides to take on a big huge project. Then, hopefully, they can convince someone to help them ;)
20102000 04-06-07, 09:35 PM	-The problem with FR Dwarf lore is this: A) It is spread out, which just makes things less likely to get noticed, and makes it annoying to research (I really know, trust me). B) Dwarven lore doesn't really have depth. What I mean is that things are mentioned, but many of the circumstances, many of the after effects, and so on are not. Case in point, the Thunder Blessing. Alright, why did this happen? How has it changed Dwarven society, what, with a whole bunch of Dwarflings running around. That might not be the best example, since the Thunder Blessing is a fairly new idea, but I am sure you get my point. A lot of Dwarven lore is 2D, not 3D. I agree. But that also is an opportunity, pulling all those spread pieces together. And giving it a third dimension. For someone that wants to take on such a huge project :)
Fencerboy 04-07-07, 09:59 AM	The retcon for Dwarves now being arcanist is more than a little awkward. The "Umm, it's always been that way." retcons always are. For many of us, though, the Dwarven ascetic is appealing and easy to identify with. A culture that is hard working, skilled, tough, tenacious, studious, loyal, brave, artistic, pragmatic, and down to earth is one that many of us find laudable and fun to play. I think there are merits to playing all of the principal demi human cultures. I simply find Dwarves to be the easiest to identify with. I really think that Dwarves are more popular at the gaming table than the supplements and novels reflect. Of course this is a subjective judgement based on my own experiences and tastes, but such is the nature of entertainment and fiction. I wonder if Dwarves and other demi humans did poorly in sales of the 2nd ed Complete Book of [insert demi human race] when compared to Elves. Evidently WotC believes that Dwarven books wouldn't sell very well, or they'd put some on the market. I wonder what the market research says. Oh well, I just wish they would put out more books focused on Dwarves. :rofl: Seriously, QFT. I am a dwarven fanboy, comparing the Stout ones to the barely-sexually-defined long-haired treehugging ranged-fighting cowards who "don't evolve".
GothicDan 04-07-07, 11:10 AM	Seriously, QFT. I am a dwarven fanboy, comparing the Stout ones to the barely-sexually-defined long-haired treehugging ranged-fighting cowards who "don't evolve". Androgyny isn't featured heavily in Faerunian Elves. For instance, note that Corellon - who is almost always androgynous - has been depicted as very masculine in most Faerunian sources. Having long hair was seen as the sign of a true warrior in most older, pagan cultures. And most Dwarves have long hair, too. Sun Elves tend more towards cities than forest towns. And Dwarves hug stones as much as Elves hug trees. Elves received a proficiency in long swords just as much as they did in bows. Elves are not cowards. They don't evolve. Big deal. It's FANTASY. Obviously you've watched LotR a few too many times and have forgotten to actually read sources on Faerunian Elves. ;)
Fencerboy 04-07-07, 03:24 PM	Androgyny isn't featured heavily in Faerunian Elves. For instance, note that Corellon - who is almost always androgynous - has been depicted as very masculine in most Faerunian sources. Having long hair was seen as the sign of a true warrior in most older, pagan cultures. And most Dwarves have long hair, too. Sun Elves tend more towards cities than forest towns. And Dwarves hug stones as much as Elves hug trees. Elves received a proficiency in long swords just as much as they did in bows. Elves are not cowards. They don't evolve. Big deal. It's FANTASY. Obviously you've watched LotR a few too many times and have forgotten to actually read sources on Faerunian Elves. ;) I just said that in humour... I like elves as much as dwarves... (almost)
GothicDan 04-07-07, 10:42 PM	I like a lot of things about Dwarven culture.... Aesthetically they don't appeal to me, and their lack of arcane Art. But other than that, Sun Elves probably have almost as much in common with the Stout folk as they do Moon Elves, in some ways. ;) I'm all about the Lawful efficiency. Mmmm. Law.
Lord Karsus 04-08-07, 05:54 PM	I agree. But that also is an opportunity, pulling all those spread pieces together. And giving it a third dimension. For someone that wants to take on such a huge project :) -You volunteering? :P
20102000 04-08-07, 07:03 PM	-You volunteering? :P I'd try, but i've not got the experience, or enough of the relavent source books.
ShadezofDis 04-08-07, 07:03 PM	Having long hair was seen as the sign of a true warrior in most older, pagan cultures. And most Dwarves have long hair, too. Yep. Basically because you then have a handle that's attached to your head, making it incredibly easy to grab.
Lord Karsus 04-08-07, 10:41 PM	I'd try, but i've not got the experience, or enough of the relavent source books. -Yeah, no, no reason to do so. You'd just get stressed out, and then other people might get angry at you! Yep. Basically because you then have a handle that's attached to your head, making it incredibly easy to grab. -You know, the Greeks had another use for...Er, never mind...:shifty:
ShadezofDis 04-09-07, 08:40 AM	-You know, the Greeks had another use for...Er, never mind...:shifty: Indeed, the "easy to grab" handle had many uses :D
GothicDan 04-09-07, 11:42 AM	Yep. Basically because you then have a handle that's attached to your head, making it incredibly easy to grab. And, of course, the mystical attributes to the Lion. ;) Achilleus, the Pandava and Kuru brothers of the Mahabharata, and the like... All heroic Epics in which the heros had long manes of hair. Besides, even if one considered it fighting like a handicap, how awesome would you be to have that handicap and STILL be the best? Like woah.
ShadezofDis 04-09-07, 12:45 PM	And, of course, the mystical attributes to the Lion. ;) Achilleus, the Pandava and Kuru brothers of the Mahabharata, and the like... All heroic Epics in which the heros had long manes of hair. Besides, even if one considered it fighting like a handicap, how awesome would you be to have that handicap and STILL be the best? Like woah. Psh, you and your lions ;) I was thinking that latter as I've got the "long mane of hair" and one of the arguments my mom made in my youth against my long hair was "someone could grab it in a fight" . .. I've still never been in a fight ;) (and this is over a decade later!)
Faraer 04-09-07, 02:05 PM	Your hair has kept you out of trouble.
ShadezofDis 04-09-07, 02:45 PM	Your hair has kept you out of trouble. That's always been my opinion. The hair is intimidating!