Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dawgfan 08-24-04, 03:17 AM	For many years now the Forgotten Realms that we have all come to know and love has been sort of the "flagship" for TSR/WoTC, but with the new release of the Eberron setting I am starting to have some fears that this may change in the coming years. For some reason I seam to be getting this feeling like WoTC is taking the attitude that "Forgotten Realms is our past but Eberron is our future", and this may be the untimely case. Now i have thumbed through the Eberron book and it definately has some interesting and unique features to it and does look like an intriging world to play in, and i am not trying to take anything away from what Keith Baker has accomplished. But I still have this undying fear that it may send our beloved realms the way of the dodo. Now I could be completely wrong (and I hope I am), and WoTC could support both settings equally, but I thought I would post this thread and see if any of my fellow FR lovers out there feel the same way I do or if their assesment of the situation differs. Although it could be said, arrogantly, that this will just be another speed bump on the FR path, but only time will tell. P.S. I am not trying to incur the wrath of Big Sis nor from anyone who is fond of the Eberron setting, I am merely stating that the future is somewhat up in the air right now and am wishing for some feedback.
warlockco 08-24-04, 04:34 AM	My take on it is. The Realms is the Chocolate and Vanilla Ice Cream of the business. While Eberron is the new fad flavor. No matter how big the new flavor becomes, Chocolate and Vanilla will always sell.
Another Gnome 08-24-04, 04:47 AM	Agree you there, warlockco. If anything, I'd worry if Eberron will stay alive after the initial hype has cooled down. [Disclaimer: I haven't seen any of the Eberron books; the above is not referring to the quality of the setting or its presentation in any shape or form.]
Enslaved DM 08-24-04, 05:04 AM	I have already shot my mouth off on the subject of Eberron. It has attracted a lot of attention and will probably have more product produced than FR will have for the next year, but it has to move a lot of product before it will replace FR. Considering how mixed the reaction is to the sourcebook, I don't think FR has to worry. Once the "new car smell" is gone, it will have to have generated very good product to hold to its position.
warlockco 08-24-04, 06:21 AM	Only thing I see Eberron end up being is additional stuff that a DM can bring into their own game. I'll admit I have ended up getting the Eberron book (still think its worth only $30 instead of $40) to use some of the material presented in there.
Tempus665 08-24-04, 07:52 AM	Originally posted by Another Gnome If anything, I'd worry if Eberron will stay alive after the initial hype has cooled down. Exactly. I did take a look in the Eberron book, but it really wasn't my cup of tea, so to speak. Nothing really spectacular. No worries here. :turkey:
Gallameed 08-24-04, 08:03 AM	Originally posted by dawgfan For many years now the Forgotten Realms that we have all come to know and love has been sort of the "flagship" for TSR/WoTC, but with the new release of the Eberron setting I am starting to have some fears that this may change in the coming years. For some reason I seam to be getting this feeling like WoTC is taking the attitude that "Forgotten Realms is our past but Eberron is our future", and this may be the untimely case. Now i have thumbed through the Eberron book and it definately has some interesting and unique features to it and does look like an intriging world to play in, and i am not trying to take anything away from what Keith Baker has accomplished. But I still have this undying fear that it may send our beloved realms the way of the dodo. Now I could be completely wrong (and I hope I am), and WoTC could support both settings equally, but I thought I would post this thread and see if any of my fellow FR lovers out there feel the same way I do or if their assesment of the situation differs. Although it could be said, arrogantly, that this will just be another speed bump on the FR path, but only time will tell. P.S. I am not trying to incur the wrath of Big Sis nor from anyone who is fond of the Eberron setting, I am merely stating that the future is somewhat up in the air right now and am wishing for some feedback. I like Eberron its fresh and new, has a gorgeous campaign book and some very cool features, yes! Also I think Ebberon has the potential to suck in all those Final Fantasy kids and anime lovers to D&D! Which I think is a great thing seeing how it looks like roleplaying could do with a new genaration if its gonna keep going. But like others have said the Forgotten Realms is "THE DADDY!" and if a current campaign setting IS forced into retirement I think it will be Greyhawk and the Realms will become the core setting in D&D forth edition. I mean come on, the realms IS the core setting! I bought Ebberon because I like the look of it, and after reading it in the shop a couple of times, I thought it was worth the money. My players reaction to the book was good, they loved the artwork and ideas inside. But so far (from the people I know who are into D&D, mostly in their mid 20's to 30's) everyone who bought the Ebberon book has yet to start a game in that world. I used the stuff I liked from Ebberon in my Realms and homebrewed campaigns and thats how other gamers I know have used it too. Dont worry! Be happy! :D
ClobberinTime 08-24-04, 08:42 AM	You know what your totally right, the whole feel is anime and fanboy. The art is really what turned me off, I know its superficial but oh well. I wouldn't worry about the realms until they stop giving us our once a quarter book, then be worried. Plus honestly I've forgotten what its like to be 13 and to be into something just because its new, but hey if its getting more people into the game then who cares...
Gallameed 08-24-04, 09:34 AM	Originally posted by ClobberinTime You know what your totally right, the whole feel is anime and fanboy. The art is really what turned me off, I know its superficial but oh well. I wouldn't worry about the realms until they stop giving us our once a quarter book, then be worried. Plus honestly I've forgotten what its like to be 13 and to be into something just because its new, but hey if its getting more people into the game then who cares... It's funny, my little sister totally loves computer roleplaying and video games and has become a Final Fantasy junkie. She loves anime and cant stop watching the many DVD's she has. Recently she's started to bug me to either let her join in our Forgotten Realms campaign (which is not really for kids) or she wants me to run a game for her and her friends so they can learn the rules and run their own games eventually. When I let her look through my Realms books she thought the artwork was stupid and said none of the pictures looked cool enough to make her want to be anything (except a Tressym :D), then I showed her the Ebberon book and she loved it and asked if I could run a game there (plus tressyms) for her and her mates. I said no because I didnt know enough about the Ebberon setting yet to make it work. But it goes to show the impact artwork can have on a book, I felt envious on behalf of the realms when I saw the Ebberon books artwork, it is very nice and fresh. Some of the realms artwork IS a little stale looking and my little sis picked up on that right away. You should have heard the laughter from her when she saw the picture of the Yuan-ti on page 152 of the Races of Faerún book.
Kid SixXx 08-24-04, 10:56 AM	Originally posted by Enslaved DM Considering how mixed the reaction is to the sourcebook, I don't think FR has to worry. Once the "new car smell" is gone, it will have to have generated very good product to hold to its position. If the recent Dragonshards article, Heirs of Dhakaan (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040816a), is any indication of the future of Eberron support material, then the setting will be getting prime fluff to support it's crunch. IMHO, the whole pulp / noir / cinematic flavor of the Eberron setting is one that essentially must stress the visual, which means that Eberron cannot help but be the recipient of a great deal of excellent fluff so that DM's can paint a vivid picture for their players. I'm sure Keith will make sure that future product is top shelf. I am a recent Eberron convert & after running The Forgotten Forge (the initial 1st lvl adventure) last weekend & having a great time doing it, I believe the PC's that I DM for are also. The setting brings a great many fresh concepts to the table, especially the way clerics are run in that setting. I see nothing but a bright future for Eberron. When Races of Eberron & the Sharn: City of Towers books are released, things will really be set into motion.
ClobberinTime 08-24-04, 11:08 AM	So Kid let me ask you a question- 1, Did they get rid of detect evil, this seems a good idea for every game, heck I might even consider getting rid of holy weapons, etc.... 2, Are all the clerics worshipers of some concept, not really a god, that could be a cool idea too, plus aren't the churches there more well organized and secretive?? Anyways, I don't know anything about it but am keeping an open mind. In fact maybe I'll just go back and look at the art real quick.
Kid SixXx 08-24-04, 11:50 AM	Originally posted by ClobberinTime So Kid let me ask you a question- That's actually 2 questions, but I'll answer em as best I can. :D Originally posted by ClobberinTime 1, Did they get rid of detect evil, this seems a good idea for every game, heck I might even consider getting rid of holy weapons, etc.... Nope. Detect Evil is still an available spell, although there is talk of tweaking the spell so that it "senses" the alignment of beings whose alignment is "absolute" (ie. planar outsiders, etc), instead of humanoids, whose alignment can fluctuate at any time. Lots of Eberron DM's are looking at the excellent new line of Detect spells in the latest ed. of Dragon as alternatives as well. Getting rid of holy weapons would be a bad idea since Eberron still has paladins & clerics, & since the undead play a major role in some of Eberron worldly events. Originally posted by ClobberinTime 2, Are all the clerics worshipers of some concept, not really a god, that could be a cool idea too, plus aren't the churches there more well organized and secretive?? Anyways, I don't know anything about it but am keeping an open mind. In fact maybe I'll just go back and look at the art real quick. The proof of existance of gods on Eberron as being actual personalities is up in the air. Divine magic could be directly given by gods, or it could simply be a matter of faith. No one knows. Traveling clerics are actually part of the military wing of organized religions: they battle real enemies of the various religions, and in some cases, spiritual ones. Some religions are well accepted and have significant influence (ex.The nation of Thaene (sp) is run by the Church of the Silver Flame. Think of the fantasy version of Vatican City, only it's an entire country..) and others are outlawed cults (ie. The Blood of Vol that reveres the old Dragonmarked houses that once used the power of the Mark of Death). Clerics can freely use spells that may shift their alignment. Since the gods are distant patrons at best, Clerics do not lose spellcasting ability nor do they have to atone for casting spells contrary to their current alignment. The consequences for doing the above, however, are terrestrial & arguably more dangerous, since clerics who act in contradiction to the general accepted alignment of the church they belong to could be hunted as heretics, and possibly killed, if the actions of the offending cleric are made public. Eberron has rules for possession & exorcism also. They rock.
ClobberinTime 08-24-04, 12:00 PM	So with seven churches is that LG, LN,LE, N, CG, CN, CE, Sounds like the the religious aspect has more of a real earth feel, and that the churches are actually that. That really is one bad thing about FR, the 110 or so gods of the realms.
Kid SixXx 08-24-04, 12:18 PM	Originally posted by ClobberinTime So with seven churches is that LG, LN,LE, N, CG, CN, CE, Sounds like the the religious aspect has more of a real earth feel, and that the churches are actually that. That really is one bad thing about FR, the 110 or so gods of the realms. Even though alignment is a part of religion, faith is more based on ideology than it is actual alignment. Just like in the FR, you have your basic benevolent organized faiths (the gods of the Sovereign Host, whom you can worship as a pantheon instead or revering one god,), and you have your not-so benevolent organized faiths like the Dark Ones. Divine Magic springs from ideals & faith. There are some evil Warforged clerics that believe so strongly that the Lord of Blades (one of the NPC BBEG's) is their worldly messiah, that they can cast clerical spells & have formed a cult to proclaim his might. This concept is also shown in the Blood of Vol cult that actually reveres an ancient, Dragonmarked lich of Larloch-rivaling power. The coolest faith belongs to the Elves, as they actually have a Shinto-style form of ancestor worship.
Kuje31 08-24-04, 01:09 PM	Originally posted by ClobberinTime [Sounds like the the religious aspect has more of a real earth feel, and that the churches are actually that. That really is one bad thing about FR, the 110 or so gods of the realms. [/B] Hey now, there are many faiths here on Earth that have 110 or more dieites so this doesn't bother me. And I happen to be 27 and love FF games and anime but dislike Eberon. :) But will it kill FR? I don't know but I do know that there is one game designer who said it might but until that game designer says something to that effect on a public message board I AM NOT going to say who it is.
Bloodtide_the_Red 08-30-04, 09:30 PM	I doubt that Eberron will have any real effect on the Realms, per say. Not that WotC could not just up and say 'we woun't make Realms stuff anymore'. The Realms have out lived a good number of other settings, or look at Greyhawk..it's never realy died. A lot of the Eberron hype is that it's 'not the Realms'. I've seen people say theas three things about Eberron. 1.It's a small, compact setting. The world is just four landmasses, and as of right now the primary setting is just one of thoes landmasses, not a huge amount of room. 2.No 'gods'. This goes directly against the 'FR has too amny gods complant'. 3.Most of all, no powerful NPC folks. The PC's get to be the heros. However, I don't see 1 and 3 holding out for long. As time rolls on they will have dozens'o'sourcebooks to describle diffrent lands and NPc's will have to creep in...in novels , if nothing else. One of the things I find most amazing of Ebberon...is WotC oddy never learned from past mistakes. It took forever for us to get a globe map of the Realms, you'd think they'd put that in the Ebberon book(ah, but that would make it 'too big'). The book also has a huge amount of 'player stuff' and no where near enough DM stuff. But I see no worries. BT
kedi 08-31-04, 05:29 AM	The biggest advantage of Realms: Before FR was a game, Ed used to write short stories about FR. Then the game came out. Then there was a FR books rush. Tons of FR books, gaming or story. FR is well detailed, has a very rich history, has the classic taste of fantasy tales. Eberron just got out. All about Ebberron is tried to be detailed in 300+ pages while FR has books even just for certain places and organizations. Eberron to admit has a pretty nice concept and system. Though FR is far more rich. I think WotC authors are now more experienced as the Eberron came out and I think their experience will benefit the upcoming FR.
KingDes 08-31-04, 01:25 PM	no, i'm not worried at all. 1, FR has tons of fans, who usually only play FR 2, FR has many lands left open to explore, and many more soursebooks to write before we have a "general" scope of the world. 3, People have to buy new material for Ebboron, while us FR guys have all we need. Why would we start all over again... 4, Ebberon is focused at a different crowd of people. While me and my friends are FR type of people, there are plenty of current non players which EBB is focusing on. FR isnt for everyone...but man is it great.
Alisttair 08-31-04, 03:52 PM	I think it's good to have Ebberon around to attract a different kind of audience to keep the company alive. If the company stays alive, then it can continue to create FR products as well. Else, it would just go down the toilet like TSR did (and that would have been a disaster were it not for the purchase by Wizards). So all in all, Eberron helps FR rather than hindering it IMO. So no worries here :)
Blackrazorblade 08-31-04, 06:04 PM	i think FR will always have a fan base like the way the older editions do. One thing it has going for it are the novels which bring in many people to DnD, the wealth of characters and preestablished backgrounds make it appealing to DMs who dislike making up "famous" people in the campiegn. (saying Drizzt Do'Urden meets them is better then Jimmy Changa the paladin of the north, a famous hero meets them)
Dorlomin 08-31-04, 10:06 PM	I'd be interested in hearing how well (or perhaps not well) Eberron has sold thus far. Has it met/exceeded expectations as far as sales go? Whether Eberron becomes the main focus at WoTC or not will depend completely on sales. I took a look at it in the store recently. Looked pretty well written, but as someone else stated, it's not my cup of tea either. Alot of the same things were said about FR and Greyhawk when FR came out too (well, not online obviously hehehe).
Arashi Ravenblade 09-01-04, 12:15 AM	ive been to a few hobby shops recently that have been selling eberron at a discounted rate so they will sell...now i have no pre-opinion about a game book i only flipped through at the store but its only been out since what june and some places are selling it at lower prices while FRCS is still 40 bucks and not discounted. I dont know has anyone else seen this at there local or not so local but out of the way shops. ( ever notice how out of he way shops always have more than your local one)
Fourthmensch 09-01-04, 02:27 AM	For anyone interested in Ed's take on Eberron, check out this month's Silven Trumpeter e-zine: http://www.silven.com/ezine/SilvenTrumpeter14-September2004.pdf His opinion appears on the third page of the interview (p. 23).
Raitaro 09-01-04, 09:39 AM	I love Eberron. It's a refreshing change from the Forgotten Realms in terms of flavour, pace and style; yet it's not so different that both sets of fans will be mutually exclusive. FR will always be my favourite fantasy setting, even above Middle Earth, but I don't expect everyone to like it as much as I do. I do however, try to eliminate ignorance in both campaign's detractors, so they at least have the basis to form an informed opinion about the settings. Whether they do or not is up to them. Besides I love the action points mechanic so much that I now use it in my FR games, along with other crunchy stuff.
Cold Napalm 09-02-04, 10:59 PM	I don't like ebberon...like others have said, not my cup of tea. I don't even like 3rd ed pictures because it doesn't look like fantasy so much as sci-fi and ebberon is just worse. Some of the mechanics is nice, I'll give it that, but I wont dish out 40 bucks for a few nice mechanics. The local Barnes and nobel around hehe hasn't been selling any of the books. I see the same ones I look at everytime I visit over and over again (and even in the same spot). The local hobby store tells me it's selling poorly. I seriously don't think eberron currently can stand anywhere near FR in sales in this area. Even now, FR core is still selling ebberon ain't. This may or may not be true of elsewhere, but where I see a problem is if the Wiz exec don't see and try to push eberron. I see it already happening slightly. In the extreme, they may even cut out FR to push up ebberon's numbers. A company has done such obvious stupid tactic as cutting out their tried and true bread and butter to increase their new "fad" item. Also the other problem I see is the glut in the market...I mean really, the RPG books for d20 books fill up 3 isles at one of the hobby shops...and it's a small shop. With the increase in glut they may decide to hell with it and just pick on campaign and I have a sinking feeling they will go with the new.
Mage of Sembia 09-04-04, 01:40 AM	I remember back about 3 years ago when they were advertising the Forgotten Realms Book for third edition, and said that it was basically a "rule book" with a world to the side. Of course, that was just another gimmick, but I feel in many ways that this is what Ebberon is like. The last two characters my brother made were changling rogues, and even though I do not play in the FR, I have played the BG computer games, and make my Homebrew world much like that. The one problem is that I see much of the Eberron ideas as "invading" my campaign setting, because most of the new rules will really alter your world, unless you majorly alter it. (Like turn the dragonmark houses into Kura-tur ninja clans.)
ArrDee 09-04-04, 02:09 AM	On the flip side of what kedi said, FR's longevity is also its greatest flaw. With all of the Realms sourcebooks out there, not to mention the novels, it's very hard for new gamers, especially those ourside of the classic fantasy niche, to come to grips with the setting. Information overload is a common problem cited by new players I've talked to, in that there is simply too much information to digest in a reasonable time or too many sourcebooks to buy to properly play in the setting. Which, IIRC, was the principle motivator for a setting like Eberron. It's a setting that's self-contained within its campaign setting, which is highly desirable for those seeking to get into the game or those who lack the resources to procure the litany of FR books. All that said, Eberron fits my tastes better than the Realms. 'Tis my preference.
Yamo 09-04-04, 02:41 PM	As I've said before, all good things musn't come to an end, but even that which doesn't die is bound to fade somewhat with time. I do think Eberron is intended to be the "new Forgotten Realms" in the same way that Forgotten Realms was intended to be the "new Dragonlance" and Dragonlance was intended to be the "new Greyhawk." Know what, though? Lots of people still play Dragonlance and Greyhawk (including me). It's not such bad company to keep and there's no shame in not being "top dog" for a particular publisher. It certainly won't mean that Forgotten Realms is "dead" or has failed somehow. It's just life, you know? Anyway, I'm just trying to add a little perspective here. Even if the worst in the case happens, which I believe it will, it still won't be that bad and it definitely won't be the end.
Decepticons 09-04-04, 10:37 PM	As much as I enjoy fantasy and sci-fi gaming, I am a cold hearted republican capitalist at my core...which is why the release of Eberron and the flurry of support for it is so surprising to me. This is (part of) the reason TSR got into financial trouble...to many products. They diluted the demand for any one product. Yeah, it was great to have this book and that book for this world and that world, except for the fact that not very many people wanted ALL the books. Thus TSR ended up being a company churning out small print runs of lots of books that didn't sell very well. Eberron sales have been good so far, but so have all the other "flash-in-the-pan" products of the past. I wonder what the demand for Eberron fluff-n-crunch books will be two years from now. For people on a budget, who are going to buy one or the other, this is bad for the company because you can't tell which (FR or Eberron) a person is going to buy in advance. I don't think Eberron will be a FR killer, but I wonder if it'll be a genre killer (I dont think it'll be a company killer, because WoTC has its hand in many things). It's like...Pikachu and Forgotten Relams are differnt. The sales of one does not really effect the sales of the other. People who buy Pikachu are probably going to buy Pikachu instead of D20. Forgotten Realms and Eberron are NOT different at that level. People who buy Forgotten Realms have a high likelyhood of being people who buy Ebberon. If I buy an Eberron book instead of a Forgotten Realms book, it doesn't increase WoTC bottom line. So basically, WoTC is gambling on Eberron bringing in enough new players that it will off-set the watering down of demand for other products. I don't think it's going to happen, and that worries me a LOT more than Eberron killing the Realms.
Dargoth 09-05-04, 02:23 AM	In the short term no Im not concerned (By short I mean 05) We know where getting at least 3 FR Source books next year Ancient Empires, Which is announced and due out in March Something featuring Faerun specfic outsiders, due out in July (posiably a BOVD for the FR) Waterdeep source book (likely due out in August 05 when Ed and Elaines novel comes out) Which leaves Wizards another 4 months at the end of 05 to release a 4th book In the longer term Eberron may become a problem due to a lack of Resources at WOTC as we all know Wizards have cut a large chunk of there staff in recent years and they may well be over stretched (unless they do some hiring) If we assume that Eberron will have the same level of product support as the FR then WOTC will be publishing the following each year 3-4 FR Source books a Year 3-4 Eberron Source Books a Year 3-4 Modules a Year, 1 for the FR, Greyhawk, Eberron and Dragonlance Then theres the Generic stuff Races of X Element based books (Like Frostburn) Monster based books (Like the Draconomicon, Liberis Mortalis) Complete Class books Other none series stuff (like Monster manuals etc) It looks like the SW RPG setting is the first to suffered from this resource shortage the last SW CRPG was published in June 04 and there wont be another one until at least May 05 (there isnt anything announced in the 1st trimester in SW for 05)
Purple Dragon Knight 09-05-04, 04:11 AM	Again, what Decepticons said (my, I am becoming his fanboy it seems... :P ) I personally think it was a bad, bad idea to branch into a nigh-identical setting. Hey, I can understand why they did Star Wars RPG: like Decepticons said, the sale of SWRPG won't affect the sales of FR products. However, Eberron? They haven't made their case (to me) that Eberron is so different that I need to drop one of my FR campaigns, spend all that time reading that new Eberron lore, and start a campaign in it. This ain't personal mind you, and I'm really glad that the gentleman who won that contest got to see his setting published, but I still think it was a not-so-good WotC decision. Last but not the least, I really hope it doesn't affect the Realms either in the short or long term... (and yes, I am worried to a certain extent)
kedi 09-05-04, 04:28 AM	Eberron vs FR Thread on Eberron Boards
Brastan 09-05-04, 06:05 AM	Ah the advantages of being a subsidiary. Since Hasbro has over all control of finances WotC is less likely to drop the TSR. I don't think there will be as many books (total) for Eberron then FR. Eberron being the first full official setting I have used as a DM(Birthright were did you go? *sad*) I don't want to see it expand as much as FR. While FR is rich and detailed, making it excellent for stories, I can't possibly handle the learning curve for the setting, especially while I'm still in school with no job/steady income. Eberron should be no threat to FR. The two will likely come to co-exist at arms length. The number of FR players vs. Eberron players still favors FR. Who knows maybe younger players who start in Eberron will graduate to FR as they grow up. :D
Dargoth 09-05-04, 06:49 AM	Eberron vs FR Thread on Eberron Boards What? Give those Heretics a Home court advantage? I dont think so! :D
Kilsek of Sheverash 09-05-04, 09:06 AM	As much as I enjoy fantasy and sci-fi gaming, I am a cold hearted republican capitalist at my core...which is why the release of Eberron and the flurry of support for it is so surprising to me. This is (part of) the reason TSR got into financial trouble...to many products. They diluted the demand for any one product. I remember all of that, yep. And yet there are some differences that are significant between then and today. Back in the day, there was what? Greyhawk, FR, Dragonlance, Dark Sun, Ravenloft, Birthright, Planescape, Al-Quadim, Maztica... and more that I'm missing... just too freakin' many campaign worlds and settings. It was cool, like you said, in a way to have all those choices, especially if you liked collecting all of the D&D stuff. But, practically speaking, there's just no way anyone could keep up - including the company itself. It got too big, like Rome, with its campaign setting portfolio, and folded. The 30th anniversary of D&D is a big difference in my mind. It was time for something "new and special" to be added to the game, and that was Eberron. D&D is still only supporting 2.5 game worlds today, vs. a lot more than that back during the dark and painful TSR/WotC transition. FR is #1, looks like Eb has taken #2 for now (or at least the plan seems that way), and then the Core world is Greyhawk, so by default it's supported, just not as furiously as the other two settings (thus the .5 ranking). So, again, I think today is a very different world. For the longest time since 3e's release, it was ONLY Greyhawk and FR being supported by WotC. And now there's one more setting. And it's different enough where it isn't the other settings, it caters to some alternate and more modern tastes, and has the potential to be a mainstay. It also doesn't come at a time where D&D is in financial trouble - far from it, so that's a relief.
Fourthmensch 09-05-04, 11:59 AM	Eberron vs FR Thread on Eberron Boards Followed the link and I got a "No Thread Specified" message. So either I did something wrong or the link is bad. You decide. :)
Decepticons 09-05-04, 12:19 PM	While FR is rich and detailed, making it excellent for stories, I can't possibly handle the learning curve for the setting, especially while I'm still in school with no job/steady income. I've seen people say that a few times in this thread, or something similar and I'd like to know why people have such a fear of the "learning curve" for FR! Being that there is a TON of information out there for it, it seems easy to step into, at least to me. First, apply the universal principal, KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid). Start a 1st level. Involve your PC's at a slow pace. Start in a small city with no famous realms personalities lurking around. Find one of the old 2nd edition FR modules and update/transplant it to your campaign. Then, maybe at 5th level have the characters branch out a little. See the world. Get involved (on the fringe at first) of one of the FR storyline events if you want. Thats how you tackle the lurning curve of anything. Programers don't pick up a kernal level UNIX book and start reading. They start with an HTML or other "easy" coding language and move up from there (I'm generalizing, but work with me here). I think out of the two dozen major FR campaigns I've run, only 3 or 4 have ever involved core realms personalities. One involved the PC's in part of the Harper/Zhentarim silent war at about level 4. One involved the characters in a situation in Silverymoon. Four out of five of my FR campaings though don't involve any of the core situations/personalities of the realms. I think this overshadows my PC's and makes them feel like specators instead of heros (or villians). The 10th level PC wizard feels pretty tuff...until you roll out the Elminsters, then all of a sudden hes little dog again. My current campaign is set in Mulhorand and takes place there and in Raurin, the Dust Desert and the Plains of Purple Dust (with a few exceptions). My PC's are LOVING it, because its a place they've never played in before. They're not meeting Drizzt and Cattie-Brea and they're not involved in the silence of Lolth, but they're having a great time in a new part of the realmsssssss...AND THAT IS WHAT GREAT REALMS PLAY IS ALL ABOUT....great times! Are ya with me peopel!?! Throw out the learning curve I say! Develop your FR campaign at YOUR speed and YOUR level of play. If you wanna dive into the deep end and start your PC's off at 18th level smoking a pipe with the sage of Shadowdale, great! Go for it. If you wanna kick things off a little more subtely, great! Go for it. Okay, sorry if I got off-topic, but I hate to see people saying there is a steep learning curve for the realms. The curve is only as steep as you make it. This is the beauty of the realms. You don't have to know a thing about it to run a fun realms campaign. I personally, when I get in the hot tub I like to just eeeeeease into it, not go in cannonball style. If the Realms seems like a lot of info...just eeeeeeease into it.
Saurenda 09-05-04, 01:15 PM	Alright I've read your posts and a few of you have some very good points. However I do not think Fr and Eberron are nigh-identical. Eberron is very different fromw hat I have read and I started out on FR. It's a breath of fresh air let me say, and so much so that in my excitment I actually looked up the wizards of the cost website for the first tiem and began posting to the boards. With FR there is the trouble of becoming lost, alot. In the readings, in keeping it simple, and with the NPCs. Alot of the GMs I have worked under were just too jaded. and in turn they have jaded me against FR. I do not care for Elminister, Mystra, or the suasage eating, spellfire wielding abomination who's name I shall not mention for fear of her fan boys. It came to a point where I asked myself, ok why doesn't FR move on? Why can't Elminister Die? Why can't Dritzz be defeated? Why is it that our PCs are playing a 'low magic' campaign setting in FR? It did not seem fair. Eberron changed alot of that for us. Dragonshards beign what they are I thought them to be materia like in FF. I also thought it might have been better to say work on planscape or Darksun instead; but it was time for something new. I can't make anyone change thier mind, and I'm not trying too. The thing is your shouldn't fear Eberron. Far from it, alot of people enjoy it, and a lot of people don't. It's like FR, it's a choice. I'm not going to go back to 2.5 or 2.0 and read a FR book from that time, I have better things to do. Soemthing new to start with and explore at the same time as others puts us on equal ground. Is it your afraid of not being an expert anymore? Not knowing causing you fear to cling to what you do have? No one is taking FR away from you, but if they did I would be there to rip it out of your cold dead hands. But that will never happen. It may happen like Planscape or Darksun, but FR will slowly fade from sight, and some day in the future so too will Eberron. People move on.
Greyson 09-05-04, 06:01 PM	Forgotten Realms is not going away, not by any means. FR is a fantastic setting with a strong, broad and loyal fan base. I have never played in FR, but I have great respect for the setting and its products. FR material is great, and as noted above, it is too much of a mainstay in the D&D culture. Look at the World of Greyhawk. It is the setting that won't go away, no matter how stale, tired and old it is. We still have GH as the general world of the D&D world. And GH is the bulwark of the RPGA. So, no need to worry about FR. Eberron is not a threat to anyone. It is just a game, it will not bite, and it is not out to get people or their campaigns. WotC is a business, and a new setting might be the answer to an elusive marketing interest. But really, Eberron is not going to hurt FR or anyone else. It is another great product that can certainly add, but will not detract, from your home campaign.
ruleslawyer 09-05-04, 07:28 PM	As much as I enjoy fantasy and sci-fi gaming, I am a cold hearted republican capitalist at my core...which is why the release of Eberron and the flurry of support for it is so surprising to me. This is (part of) the reason TSR got into financial trouble...to many products. They diluted the demand for any one product... Eberron sales have been good so far, but so have all the other "flash-in-the-pan" products of the past. Forgotten Realms and Eberron are NOT different at that level. People who buy Forgotten Realms have a high likelyhood of being people who buy Ebberon.This post is riddled with a number of false assumptions: 1) WotC producing Eberron and FR products is identical to TSR's diversification of FRP product lines. It isn't. TSR, at the hallowed heights of 2e, was producing sourcebooks and modules for ten (count 'em) campaign settings, as well as numerous rules expansions. WotC has settled on two D&D settings: FR and Eberron. Following Eberron's initial ramp-up, neither setting is likely to get more than one new book a month (check TSR back catalogs for how much came out in a typical quarter!). The fact that WotC has cut out module production means that Eberron modules will be the only thing going. That's hardly overproliferation. 2) Eberron sales have been in line with so-called "flash-in-the-pan" products. Not according to WotC staff, they haven't. I've emailed Ed Stark and posted back and forth with Keith Baker on this, and it appears that the ECSB has been a much bigger seller than any of the "minor" TSR settings (e.g. Birthright, Red Steel, revamped Mystara) ever were, and has vastly outsold the Dragonlance CSB. 3) People who buy FR products are the same people who buy Eberron products. OK, so this assumption isn't demonstrably false. However, I see no empirical evidence in favor of it, and strong evidence against. First off, count the percentage of posters on the WotC D&D boards, the ENWorld boards, and Monte Cook's boards who don't play FR. I'm darn sure it's over 50%. Now go to the Eberron boards and look for username overlap with these boards. Very little. Now think about the number of folks you know personally, have seen at conventions, or have seen post on various FRPG boards who either don't like FR or just don't want to use it. There's your market for Eberron, whether people use the setting wholesale or just plunder the Eberron materials for ideas. I live in a large city with a LOT of gamers, and I can tell you that Eberron content is going off the shelves. I can also say that I'm the only DM I know who runs FR games, though I know a number of groups about. You're definitely not talking a large overlap with FR buyers. The fact that you use the Realms may cause you to think that everyone who plays D&D does, but I can tell you that this isn't the case.
Decepticons 09-05-04, 07:51 PM	1) WotC producing Eberron and FR products is identical to TSR's diversification of FRP product lines. It isn't. TSR, at the hallowed heights of 2e, was producing sourcebooks and modules for ten (count 'em) campaign settings, as well as numerous rules expansions. WotC has settled on two D&D settings: FR and Eberron. Following Eberron's initial ramp-up, neither setting is likely to get more than one new book a month (check TSR back catalogs for how much came out in a typical quarter!). The fact that WotC has cut out module production means that Eberron modules will be the only thing going. That's hardly overproliferation. True, they're the only products being put out by WoTC, but the open D20 license allows for other realms to be developed. Already the Ravenloft Setting is back, as is the Dragonlance Setting. Plus you've got Everquest, Wheel of Time, LoTR, just to name the "common" settings. That's seven. For people who are going to but "one or the other" these 5 non-WoTC worlds may pull sales from the FR and Eberron settings. As far as sales go, I probably should have said that it's flash-in-the-pan sales have been similar to the old 2E stuff, but mitigated it by saying that since Eberron is the ONLY WoTC setting other than core and FR, this is not a surprise. It's selling really well because it is the only WoTC published setting to be released since FR. We'll have to wait and see what happens with sales of both settings. If Eberron causes a 70% increase in books purchased, but causes a 40% drop in FR books purchaed, will that be profitable for WoTC? I agree that there is plenty of room for both, and I don't want to seem like I'm championing one over the other. I'm just a little worried by the trend.
Caelic 09-06-04, 10:29 AM	A number of points: 1. Settings come, and settings go. Those who were around back in the late eighties remember when it was Greyhawk that was supplanted by the "new kid on the block," the Forgotten Realms. ("Whattaya MEAN, they're switching over to that crazy setting from Dragon?") Does anyone out there still have a copy of "Elminster's Gygax Removal?" 2. The assertion has been made that sales of dissimilar products, like CCGs, don't impact sales of RPGs. I'd like to dispute that; in fact, I think it's safe to day that CCGs and computer games are the primary cause for the decline of the RPG industry. The truth of the matter is that tabletop roleplaying games are, for most intents and purposes and to most people, archaic. Most consumers would rather plug in a computer game than take the time to learn a game that has a half-dozen rulebooks. This industry has always been built on the backs of twelve year olds. If there are no new twelve year olds coming into the hobby, the industry declines, because the next generation of customers simply isn't there. If the twelve year olds are spending their allowance on Pokemon, they're NOT spending it on D&D...FR or Eberron. 3. I also think that the assumption of exclusivity and brand loyalty is flawed. From what I've seen, devotees of third edition tend to be like customers at a Chinese buffet, freely adding a little of this to their plate, a little of that. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Changelings turn up in shadowy syndicates in Waterdeep, or Artificers exploring the Vast. WotC has marketed crunch over fluff. Lots of players will buy the books for the crunch and ignore the fluff.
druid berrymore 09-06-04, 11:23 PM	...This ain't personal mind you, and I'm really glad that the gentleman who won that contest got to see his setting published, but I still think it was a not-so-good WotC decision... Excuse me? Not-so-good decision? Making tons of money sounds like a good decision to me.
Decepticons 09-06-04, 11:40 PM	Not if it ends up being only a short term gain. Time will tell.
stembolt 09-07-04, 01:26 AM	First I have to mention I am from the Eberron board. I have a few pieces of information that may interest people here. One of the big money makers for WotC is the Forgotten realms novels. Some of them have been best sellers. The big reason why is that norms (non-gamers) buy these books. So FR in general is not going anywhere. Couple that with the large community of gamers who mysteriously enjoy the setting and you see FR is not going anywhere in the near future. As for Eberron, it is also shaping up to be a long running world. It has two major things going for it. First it is being used in the new computer games “Dragonshard” and “DnD Online” are both set in Eberron. Both games are also being reviewed very favorably. If things work out the way it is intended both of those games will be seminal in their genre. (Dragon shard it’s a real time war simulation and DnD online is a MMORPG.) Similar to these cutting edge games Eberron draws props from the RPG community. People who dislike premade setting have flocked to Eberron because, well for lots of reasons. Anyway Eberron is here to stay just like FR.
Ranix 09-08-04, 12:50 AM	Eberron could be a thing that's here to stay. (That was a disclaimer.) I think that it's possible Wizards wanted to put out a new setting so they can work on all five systems at once. Fourth quarter will see books from Core splats, from Forgotten Realms, from Eberron, from d20 Modern, and from the new d20 Future. Some companies overstimulate their fourth quarter market to inspire consumer confidence in the stock arena, and product influx creates a false sense of consumer confidence that might cause a larger buy rush on Wall Street for WotC stock than just high sales reports. If I'm right, expect to see new expansions in all the Wizards' card games at about the same time with long and rediculous names. If sales really wind up supporting the influx, you might see things like d20 Future and Eberron getting supported for the next year. If not, you might not. If I'm off base then Wizards might be reliant on sales figures after all. But it looks suspiciously like fluffing to me. Of course, that's not bad. I like a wide assortment of games anyway :D
The_Declaration 09-08-04, 08:44 AM	Eberron could be a thing that's here to stay. well, with a $100,000 buying price, i think it's safe to say that Eberron is here to stay. I doubt that they offered that to Keith Baker so that he write 3 books and then dump the setting. Eberron is more a new Dragonlance/FR than a new Al-Qadim. Whether we like it or not, WOTC is gonna push the setting as hell so that it grabs the crown.
Mystery Man 09-08-04, 08:49 AM	I remember all of that, yep. And yet there are some differences that are significant between then and today. Back in the day, there was what? Greyhawk, FR, Dragonlance, Dark Sun, Ravenloft, Birthright, Planescape, Al-Quadim, Maztica... and more that I'm missing... just too freakin' many campaign worlds and settings. It was cool, like you said, in a way to have all those choices, especially if you liked collecting all of the D&D stuff. But, practically speaking, there's just no way anyone could keep up - including the company itself. It got too big, like Rome, with its campaign setting portfolio, and folded. With D20/DnD umbrella you have Kalamar, Midnight and Dawnforge, Oathbound, Demon Wars, Scarred Lands, Dragonlance, Arcana Unearthed, Conan, Freeport, Slaine', Iron Kingdoms, Erde, Wheel of Time, and the up and coming Warriors of the Accordlands, and Castlemorn. And those are the ones that I can think of. We actually have more choices now than we did back in the day.
Ivid 09-16-04, 04:30 AM	Forgotten Realms i So, no need to worry about FR. Eberron is not a threat to anyone. It is just a game, it will not bite, and it is not out to get people or their campaigns. . *Sorry I am a devoted FR - avoider ;) and I don't belong to this forum but got interested in this topic* I think it will be more the other way around: FR will kill Eberron sooner or later, as it killed any other TSR/Wizards world. 1. There are so much modules, novels, videogames etc avaible for money or for free, that it's very difficult not to relay on the FR setting in some way. Most Player sets feature free FR adventures etc Why should anyone switch to Eberron if there is no need AND you get tons of information on FR? 2. Because of this, Eberron will end up as a secondary setting that people tired of FR will play, and those tend to switch to their original setting when something more interesting comes around. 3. I got the impression that E is more for younger players (<18 years, I'd say). How many of them do really have the money to spend on dozens of sourcebooks? - Anyone remembers Lankhmar, that was such a secondary setting for AD&D 2nd ed.? It was played some time and then fell into oblivion as Greyhawk and FR were relaunched... For us devoted RPG fans, Eberron will be of interest, but for those by-the-way players it will be as charming and as unreachable as Mystara or Planescape were.
Ma'ElKoth 09-17-04, 03:19 AM	3. I got the impression that E is more for younger players (<18 years, I'd say). How many of them do really have the money to spend on dozens of sourcebooks? I don't know what the target audience was, it may indeed have been younger gamers, but I do know that Eberron has seduced my group. We are mid- to late-twenties, and personally I think that we may be mature and experienced enough to really appreciate what Eberron offers in the way of noir based themes, moral grey areas, and political intrigue. Younger players may enjoy the semi-anachronistic feel, ala Final Fantasy games, but there is a lot more to Eberron than that. It isn't that we have jumped ship from FR entirely. I still love the Realms, but the opportunities to play in a world where there is less moral clarity, fewer and more distant gods, and few (if any) epic level heavyweights around to ensure that no entrenched faction loses entierly was too good to pass up. Plus I just like the idea that the dragons in Eberron aren't color-coded by alignment. What will really determine Eberron's staying power is whether or not older gamers give it a chance, and try to look past some of the more specious aspects of the setting. It will never replace FR though. FR is almost elemental High Fantasy, and that is still what people think of when they start playing RPGs.
Suu'thien Fethomir 09-17-04, 08:09 PM	I don't understand why some of you were saying it had a similar feeling to anime in art style. I just took a look at the art in the campaign setting book, and pretty much found it unfavorable. It was more akin to AMERICAN comics, not Japanese manga style. I personally prefer the more lighthearted, vibrant pieces that made it into the FRCS as opposed to the old '80s style stuff.
GothicDan 09-17-04, 09:05 PM	I think the 2E FRCS art IS pretty good. I don't like the Eberron stuff, personally, and I really hate some of the pictures in the DLCS (oh god.. the knights of solamnia.. nooo).
Suu'thien Fethomir 09-17-04, 10:45 PM	I'm talkin 3E FRCS, lol. The 2e stuff looks kind of silly to me, maybe just because I'm a younger guy. :P
GothicDan 09-17-04, 11:08 PM	Oh, sorry, I meant to type 3E. I think some of the art in the 2E one was pretty amateur-ish.
Suu'thien Fethomir 09-17-04, 11:31 PM	:) agreed.
Kilsek of Sheverash 09-18-04, 02:28 AM	You want to talk bad art? Look at Unapproachable East. There's very few pieces of art I like in there - I was shocked how kiddie and unfinished and unpolished everything looks. Otherwise, UE is a GREAT Realms sourcebook. Terrible artwork... horrifying really! At least the Ice Troll & Rashemi berserker pic is awesome, the one right before the encounter tables :) Good map pics, great crunch and fluff... but man, that art was disappointing. Silver Marches was an obvious notch or two above it. What happened??
GothicDan 09-18-04, 03:01 AM	Heh. I thought UE was really boring. Which sucked because it's also my favorite region. It seemed like at least a 75% reprint of everything in Spellbound.
warlockco 09-18-04, 03:38 AM	You want to talk bad art? Look at Unapproachable East. There's very few pieces of art I like in there - I was shocked how kiddie and unfinished and unpolished everything looks. Otherwise, UE is a GREAT Realms sourcebook. Terrible artwork... horrifying really! For art, the Faiths and Pantheons book, was a real let down. Several very nice pieces, but alot of really washed out art to put a damper on it. Would have been really nice if artists like Brom, Todd Lockwood, Matt Wilson, and Sam Wood could have done more art for the book. There are other artists in the book that did good jobs also, but unfortunately, several of the nice pieces didn't have names or symbols that I recognized.
warlockco 09-18-04, 03:44 AM	With D20/DnD umbrella you have Kalamar, Midnight and Dawnforge, Oathbound, Demon Wars, Scarred Lands, Dragonlance, Arcana Unearthed, Conan, Freeport, Slaine', Iron Kingdoms, Erde, Wheel of Time, and the up and coming Warriors of the Accordlands, and Castlemorn. And those are the ones that I can think of. We actually have more choices now than we did back in the day. True, but some of those other choices are very very poorly done. And some are dead already. Slaine and Wheel of Time seems to have vanished. My Game Store, dropped the entire Slaine line, and I have yet to see anything for Wheel of Time beyond the Campaign Setting book. Iron Kingdoms is nice, but they are being very slow with the material, concentrating more on the Miniatures Wargame part of the line. Plus I just don't want to spend $40 for a campaign book that is more likely to be used as a source of additional crunch than for the fluff. At least it is a Big Book though, but at that price it is on the back burner on my list of stuff to get. Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed has several nice things, but it seems Monte is really really fond of templates.
Supercilious 09-19-04, 07:11 PM	Realms > Eberron. Eberron feels like shadowrun with platemail and a longsword.
WizO_BigSister 09-19-04, 08:49 PM	I don't understand why some of you were saying it had a similar feeling to anime in art style. I just took a look at the art in the campaign setting book, and pretty much found it unfavorable. It was more akin to AMERICAN comics, not Japanese manga style. I personally prefer the more lighthearted, vibrant pieces that made it into the FRCS as opposed to the old '80s style stuff. I agree entirely. One of my old hobbies was medieval arms & armour so psuedo realistic pictures of people in armour thats qyute frankly daft never appealed to me. And as for the females ... just don't ask :mymy: I like the watercolour line/art style that is used. It doesn't pretend to be photorealistic and you know it's stylised. Personally I think the art is very different to anime style, and also different to comic book style. Mind you I have been enjoying the resurgance of water colour art and Stephanie Pui-Mun Law has made it into my own pantheon!
Suu'thien Fethomir 09-19-04, 09:53 PM	:) The watercolors in some of the recent sourcebooks have been fantastic! About the Faiths and Pantheons book, I think the way some of the gods were drawn sort of lends them a very godly air so to speak. I like 'em. Of course if I had it my way, those artists, (Brom, Todd Lockwood, Matt Wilson, and Sam Wood) would be drawing everything. I feel very drawn to Lockwood's work in particular, because it's his art style that really and truly defined 3E, which was the edition I really started to get to know D&D in.
ClobberinTime 09-19-04, 10:42 PM	I'll second the shadow run bit, I've waffled about buying the eberron book and probably won't in the end though...
warlockco 09-19-04, 11:39 PM	I feel very drawn to Lockwood's work in particular, because it's his art style that really and truly defined 3E, which was the edition I really started to get to know D&D in. Todd Lockwood and especially Sam Wood, did alot of the initial Iconic Artwork for the 3E line.
ranger_of_renwood 09-20-04, 03:50 AM	I don't think we have to worry about the FR biting the big one any time soon. I too have thumbed through Eberron a dozen or so times, and although it does make for some interesting game play and some really cool options, it still doesn't hold a candle to what the FR has to offer. The FR is simply too popular right now. What makes Eberron different is tone. It's suppose to take after the action/adventure movie genre (high impact, harrowing, Indiana Jone's adventure sort of stuff). D&D is a game largely played in your head, and I think that it is going to be hard to achieve something cinematically stunning through anything else besides visual media. I can see this turning into a really good comic book, great cartoon series, or an excellent hack-and-slash video game, but as for novels and what not I think it's going to be difficult task. If Keith Baker and the other designers are up to the challenge my hood is off to them. Congratulations Keith, you're doing what most of us only dream of. Eberron is still young, and I wish it the best of luck. Just my two copper.
Ivid 09-20-04, 04:15 AM	It isn't that we have jumped ship from FR entirely. I still love the Realms, but the opportunities to play in a world where there is less moral clarity, fewer and more distant gods, and few (if any) epic level heavyweights around to ensure that no entrenched faction loses entierly was too good to pass up. Plus I just like the idea that the dragons in Eberron aren't color-coded by alignment. What will really determine Eberron's staying power is whether or not older gamers give it a chance, and try to look past some of the more specious aspects of the setting. It will never replace FR though. FR is almost elemental High Fantasy, and that is still what people think of when they start playing RPGs. The thing about Eberron is that it has that kind of fresh flavour the settings currently available just don't have anymore. If it can preserve this smell, it may be one of the major successes of WotC. However, it is to consider that it will be exploited by the corresponding design teams, at that might kill it. Anyone remembers Mystara? - Same phenomenon, I think...
The White Sorcerer 09-20-04, 07:37 AM	Eberron feels like shadowrun with platemail and a longsword. Ya know, a lot of people say this, but no one has really explained why. What exactly is it that makes Eberron feel like Shadowrun? Peace out, TWS (supporter of both Eberron and the Realms)
fizzbang 09-20-04, 08:44 AM	Ya know, a lot of people say this, but no one has really explained why. What exactly is it that makes Eberron feel like Shadowrun? A while ago, I posted a thread on the Eberron boards about how Eberron makes use of a lot of themes that are central to cyberpunk works. It seems to have disappeared in the forum switch, though. I think saying "Eberron = Shadowrun" is grossly misrepresenting both systems, but I can see why people make the comparison. In short, Eberron draws on a variety of genres for its feel: fantasy, pulp, noir, detective stories, and a dash of cyberpunk (although this may be arguably an extension of its noir influence). In particular, the cyberpunk elements that appear are rather central ones to the world: "Technology" blurring the lines between real and artificial (Warforged), nihilistic uncertainty about existence (the questionable existence of the divine), "corporate" power on the same or greater scale than those of nations (internationally powerful dragonmarked houses), and so forth. The only real difference is that in Eberron, there are a few substitutions to make it all still work in a fantasy setting (and with the other genres it uses). There isn't "technology" in a scientific sense, but it's replaced with magical works that have become day-to-day and omnipresent in the same way. There aren't "megacorps", but there are dragonmarked houses that are international and have the same sort of power as a separate nation. The fact that elves and dwarves are already in the world just makes it easy to take the comparison from cyberpunk in general towards Shadowrun in particular. That said, Eberron presents many more options for stories and games than Shadowrun does. While you could grab Shadowrun plots and run them with only superficial changes for a party in Sharn, you've also got options for all sorts of other stories that'd never work in Shadowrun. There are deep dungeons for delving, temples for raiding, conspiracies to investigate, kingdoms to defend or topple, ancient mysteries to uncover (and accidentally awaken?), and many many more options.
Kid SixXx 09-20-04, 11:02 AM	It's suppose to take after the action/adventure movie genre (high impact, harrowing, Indiana Jone's adventure sort of stuff). D&D is a game largely played in your head, and I think that it is going to be hard to achieve something cinematically stunning through anything else besides visual media. I can see this turning into a really good comic book, great cartoon series, or an excellent hack-and-slash video game, but as for novels and what not I think it's going to be difficult task. Wow, I have to really disagree with this. The hallmark of any novel is to get the written word to form the scenes in your mind's eye in as vivid a sense as possible. Everyone praises RA Salvatore's fights because he's so descriptive that you can "see" the fight as you are reading. Eberron's focus on the cinematic should lead to very descriptive prose which will make for excellent novels. If D&D is the game that's played in your head, then the game that pays direct attention to visual detail that translates best into mental imagery (aka. Eberron) would be the one that is worth your time. Keith Baker even has a set of articles at the Eberron boards offering "pointers" to Eberron DM's on how to relay setting to their players.
ClobberinTime 09-20-04, 11:17 AM	Look the vibe of the game is totally setting Neutral, you can run pulp in FR just like anywhere, and Battles in Eberron aren't any different. If you like action poins well put em in FR, its not like those mechanics were new, or technically fascinating. Shadowrun was and is a fun game, where you couldn't trust anyone, i think its the whole magic as technology aspect of Eberron that brings this to mind. Dwarf Artificers, and Warforged as Street Samauri. One positive thing about Shadow run is that the game mechanics were cool, cinegraphic and very very different than D+D As far as the 'new' thing about Eberron, there just aren't many new things in fantasy period much less Eberron, calling something 'new' because its 'new' to you doesn't mean its not old hat to someone else.
fizzbang 09-20-04, 11:19 AM	I can see this turning into a really good comic book, great cartoon series, or an excellent hack-and-slash video game, but as for novels and what not I think it's going to be difficult task. Wow, I have to really disagree with this. The hallmark of any novel is to get the written word to form the scenes in your mind's eye in as vivid a sense as possible. Everyone praises RA Salvatore's fights because he's so descriptive that you can "see" the fight as you are reading. Eberron's focus on the cinematic should lead to very descriptive prose which will make for excellent novels. Unsurprisingly, I've got to agree with Kid SixXx on this (the extra "X" is for, um, "extra"?). While Eberron may require a slightly different style of DM description to really capture the more cinematic, stylistic feel of the world, that descriptive difference doesn't necessitate a visual medium. In the same way that books and music can be described as "cinematic", it just requires an extra touch of focus towards the environment and attention to the "feel" of the experience. And Eberron is just as well suited to novels as any other setting. After all, it draws heavily on pulp works, and there are no shortage of pulp books!
GothicDan 09-20-04, 11:57 AM	Heh. The question is what constitutes a "good novel" then. And I won't go any further than that, because I'm afeared! ;)
Kid SixXx 09-20-04, 12:24 PM	Heh. The question is what constitutes a "good novel" then. And I won't go any further than that, because I'm afeared! ;) Since no one will come to a conensus because we all our own litmus tests as what constitutes a "good novel," the point is moot. Also, discussion of such will hijack this thread most likely and novel debates are forbidden, so there is no need to flirt with thread closure by further musing.
ClobberinTime 09-20-04, 12:28 PM	I'm still stuck on the 'more cinematic' part. There is nothing more Cinematic about Eberron. its just a matter of DMs style. So the source book wants you to be more superlative in describing combat, some DMs are Some aren't.
Kid SixXx 09-20-04, 12:31 PM	I'm still stuck on the 'more cinematic' part. There is nothing more Cinematic about Eberron. its just a matter of DMs style. So the source book wants you to be more superlative in describing combat, some DMs are Some aren't. Sorry, but Eberron does indeed focus on Cinematic elements much more than other settings, IMO. I invite you to peruse the Eberron at the Movies thread: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=299282
ClobberinTime 09-20-04, 06:34 PM	Giving action in D+D a palpable moving feel is important to good DMship regarless of the setting and helps to get people involved, whether its forgotten realms or any other setting from GH on down the line. Encouraging D+D players to make a more fluid action filled game is a good thing. But these are just traits that make for a good game that don't have anything to do with eberron anymore than wizards are exclusively found in the realms. As far as the movies bit that was a nice list of movies that younger people might not have seen that can educate them about film and life, no doubt, and alot of my favorites were on the list, but there is nothing more eberron than FR about any of them. Raiders, SW, Apookylips, Bruce lee etc.. fit in just fine in FR. (don't forget the seven samauri either) I don't have any problems with the eberron at all, its just that calling something by a label and having something be that way is two different things..I understand the marketing behind why Wiz is doing this, and I can understand why younger players want a world to make their own where they don't have tons of realmslorians looking down their noses at how they used this or that iconic NPC, and I understand that people have a need to be a part of something that is 'new'. But at the same time it seems to longtime players as really the same thing we've been doing all along, just placed in a pretty package and called new. But Hey, do what feels good and if Eberron suits your fancy then go for it.
Mystery Man 09-20-04, 07:51 PM	The one thing I wish wasn't new about the Eberron setting is the cosmology and the planes. They have this fine setting that is well suited for high level plane hopping and really have a chance for greatness to tie it in rock solid with the Manual of the Planes..... ....and screw it up royally with this (I don't even know what it is) type of planar thing they have going on. I positively loath it and will completly throw it out if I run an Eberron campaign. Other than that it's a pretty tight setting that compliments the Realms in that it's unlike it in every good way. I hope they're able to keep the "new campaign smell" for a while.
ranger_of_renwood 09-20-04, 09:19 PM	Wow, I have to really disagree with this. The hallmark of any novel is to get the written word to form the scenes in your mind's eye in as vivid a sense as possible. Everyone praises RA Salvatore's fights because he's so descriptive that you can "see" the fight as you are reading. Eberron's focus on the cinematic should lead to very descriptive prose which will make for excellent novels. If D&D is the game that's played in your head, then the game that pays direct attention to visual detail that translates best into mental imagery (aka. Eberron) would be the one that is worth your time. Keith Baker even has a set of articles at the Eberron boards offering "pointers" to Eberron DM's on how to relay setting to their players. Unsurprisingly, I've got to agree with Kid SixXx on this (the extra "X" is for, um, "extra"?). While Eberron may require a slightly different style of DM description to really capture the more cinematic, stylistic feel of the world, that descriptive difference doesn't necessitate a visual medium. In the same way that books and music can be described as "cinematic", it just requires an extra touch of focus towards the environment and attention to the "feel" of the experience. And Eberron is just as well suited to novels as any other setting. After all, it draws heavily on pulp works, and there are no shortage of pulp books! Usually I sit back, nod my head, and generally go with what people have to say whenever someone disgrees with me, but I have to stick with my guns on this one. Perhaps I didn't word it right. I said it would be difficult to have Eberron work, and I probably should have wrote it would be easier to have Eberron work in other ways. Yes, Salvatore get's a lot of praise for his fight scenes and rightfully so, but how many of us can write on that level, or even choreograph a fight half as well? Personally, I don't see myself DMing or playing in an Eberron Campaign setting any time soon. I simply don't know anyone with the skill to run it the way it is suppose to be. And that's just it too. You can take anything, and if you put someone good enough behind it he or she can make it work. I was simply saying that Eberron would translate extremely well to a visual medium. I mean, can you imagine playing an adamantite-plated warforged on the frontlines during the Last War? It would be amazing. Certainly you could imagine this, you're probably imagining it right now. However, in order to choregraph such a battle (or any large scale battle) you need an excellent DM to choreograph it all and I personally don't know anyone who would be up to the task (not saying that one doesn't exist). One could say that applies to everything, but in order to capture the Eberron Campaign setting is trying to invoke, you need someone who can really capture the tone (which is what sets Eberron apart from other campaign settings). I agree with you Fizzbang, you can get a cinematic feel through non-visual media, but it takes someone of considerable talent and skill to pull something like that off. To simply put it, it's a challenge, though it's definately not impossible. The Action Point system lends itself excellently to capture a cinematic feel, but it takes a skilled DM to fill in the gaps and make it come alive in your head. Like I said before, I personally don't know anyone up to the task. It's different from the FR because the FR is your classic fantasy, sword and sorcerery, kind of campaign setting. I'm not saying that it is limit to such, with the immersive and detailed history you a talented DM could certainly make it very much an action/adventure, Indiana Jones type campaign or with all the near-constant backstabbing concerning the Drow culture one could really make use of social intrigue, just to name a few of the possibilities. Either way, it all depends on the DM and what type of campaign he or she is good at running. That's cool that Keith Baker put up a "pointers" thread in the Eberron forum, I'll definately have to check that out. Who knows, maybe I have just written myself into a corner and deserve to fall on my own sword, perhaps when I find a DM that can pull it off well I will play in a Eberron campaign, but that's where I stand on Eberron and I'm sticking with it.
Kid SixXx 09-21-04, 08:11 AM	It would be amazing. Certainly you could imagine this, you're probably imagining it right now. However, in order to choregraph such a battle (or any large scale battle) you need an excellent DM to choreograph it all and I personally don't know anyone who would be up to the task (not saying that one doesn't exist). While I believe that all DM's should be able to paint more than believable scenes for their players, and do a disservice to them if they can't, I also realize that not every DM is a Salvatore, a Spielberg, or a Rembrandt. How you enjoy playing the game is also a factor. Some of us run things by the numbers, some of us actually enjoy RP, and others think that RP is just a filler precursor to combat. Eberron most likely may dig itself into a niche because of the demandments it may make on DM style, but then again, at least the adventures will be interesting and the players will be entertained as well as tested. I think it's tragic that you don't know any DM's up to the task of creating such a vivid picture, especially since you are an FR fan, and the supposed lure to the FR is that it is a world full of culture, history and mystique that needs to be adequately relayed to the players. Eberron can only get better as more fluff is added, and DM's are continually encouraged to (and given the tools to) properly depict the world to their players in all of it's grandeur. ( and in some cases, all of it's horror! :devil: ) Encouraging D+D players to make a more fluid action filled game is a good thing. But these are just traits that make for a good game that don't have anything to do with eberron anymore than wizards are exclusively found in the realms. But it does, since it is stressed in Eberron and not in other settings. The style in which Eberron is presented to the players is just as important as the setting itself. Lots of people seem to brush this off as merely a notion or a novelty, but the fact that it is a very important concept.
ClobberinTime 09-21-04, 04:04 PM	you know what, I could see how if you were a beginning DM alot of teaching of how to do it in a certain style might be good. the FRCS doesn't say alot about setting the tone of the game and I agree it is important, Old FR stuff had a much more specific feel than the current stuff and now its designed to be very broad and handling a whole lot of adventure types and styles. the DMG is too general and abstract for the purpose because people learn best from a concrete example, and learning by doing. I guess thats what Eberron is providing for people just getting into the game.