Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ramius_Mordale 02-23-04, 02:34 AM	Alright I have to ask everyone, cause I have argued this point time and time again. Why does someone always assume if you have a powerful character with a fair of magic items (especially if you are an item creation wizard) that you are automatically powergaming. So you can't have a high level character period without being a power gamer? C'mon people really being able to play a magister or a chosen is power gaming even if the road to being one was filled with peril and struggling against numerous confrontations to achieve it. PLEASE! I haven't heard so much crap in my life. Listen high level characters are powerful, yes, but thats why you have more powerful creatures to have them fight. Well this is just here to spark up a debate in the topic of is aiming to keep a character alive through a campaign powergaming if he makes it to high level. And if having powerful magical items (or any for that matter) on a high level character is a sin. I would really like to here all of your opinions. Thanks.
Gotrex 02-23-04, 05:46 AM	indeed it isnt powergaming unless you do somthing out of character to gain power making a powerful character within the context of that character is fine its just when people do weird stuff and abuse the rules that it becomes powergaming (such as being a dwarven barbarian and then shifting your alignment to lawful so you can get dwarven defender levels so you have alot of DR)
Nahar 02-23-04, 06:26 AM	I can see this getting emotional. So first off: yay for Ash (had to be said). Secondly, I would define powergaming as a state of mind. Having some uber PC that only does what the player wants regardless of class, alignment and tight underwear is broadly what I see as powergaming. A powerful PC, played appropriately, and in charater, shouldn't get defined as such automatically. However, even good roleplaying shouldn't excuse deliberate manipulation and abuse of the rules.
Ramius_Mordale 02-23-04, 07:06 AM	Totally agree this shouldn't get emotional, and that wasn't my intent. I just wish to have some feedback cause I think a friend of mine mistakes the true definition of powergaming. But thank you for the reconizing the Ash qoute and for your opinions.
Mirtek 02-23-04, 07:18 AM	You aren't a powergamer if your cleric worships Torm You may be a powergamer if your cleric worships Bane You are a powergamer if Bane worships your cleric :angel: :angel: :angel:
Monde 02-23-04, 09:00 AM	Powergaming........we have had so many problems with this in our groups over the years....so I have to agree with the emotion comments. My take on this is if you do something in character that improves your character then it is fine no matter how powerful you become. As long as it is in keeping with your character. If you use your knowledge of the rules to maximise your rolls with little or no concern for the character then it is powergaming. I have a friend who can quote 90% of the core rule books out of hand. His characters are always super powerful and he plays off traits and equipment until he gets the highest numbers possible. That is powergaming. In my humble opinion anyway.
the_heart 02-23-04, 09:43 AM	as a courtesy you should limit the power of your character to approximately the same as that of the group you are playing with. remember that powergaming (etc.) is relative, it's not an absolute. so playing a 3rd level human fighter with 14 str and power attack could be powergaming if the rest of the group are commoners with no stat above an 11. (an extreme example for illustrative purposes) unfortunately many see high stats and magic beyond what they are used too and scream 'powergamer' (or worse) when it's not always appropriate. moreso OL.
Ramius_Mordale 02-23-04, 10:22 AM	So very true. Level does depend on if you are powergaming or not. And Monde I know what you are talking about, we used to have a problem with a new edition to our group back in the day but now he has matured into a good RPer. Though when I speak of high level characters I'm speaking of people around the same level no more than 1 maybe 2 levels, ranging from 10th level to 20th and above I suppose. After all I agree if you have Bane worshiping you I think its about time to come out of denial that you are not a power gamer. =P But keep the opinions coming.
Cunning Linguist 02-23-04, 10:40 AM	Having strong stats is not powergaming either.. just look at Dark Sun. Powergaming, the way I see it, is if a DM is playing character of less power then the players. If the players have a chance of dying each encounter, then it's fair game. They may have a +7 sword of monsterslaying, but as the DM i have a +7 sword of adventure slaying. There is also the other side of the coin, when my players are going up against whom they know are worshipers of a undead god, and there first spell is Slay Living.. as the DM, i say "It looks like she likes it, she used to have a cut on her leg, but now that is gone also" and the reply from the player is "Ohcrap, she's undead! If so she has a low fort save! I cast inflict critical wounds, that should take her down a notch"
Another Gnome 02-23-04, 10:47 AM	I agree with the_heart. Powergaming is bad when one character is dominating the game, but it is (nearly) as bad to have a below average character that hinders the progress of everyone else. So, I would say that when everyone in the party has an approximately equal chance to do stuff in the game and the DM reflects that with the encounters and everyone is generally having a good time, the mechanical build and power of an individual character is irrelevant.
Ssussunriyh 02-23-04, 11:17 AM	If your character has vast powers, and uses them conspicuously and often with little regard for the consequences, you might be a powergamer. If your character has vast powers, but sometimes refrains from using them because it would be unethical or unwise to do so, you are not a powergamer, you are roleplaying a powerful character.
Sylvos 02-23-04, 12:00 PM	There is a distinction between being a powergamer and an "ub3r d00d". Having a powerful character that you have put time and effort into making powerful is fine. Creating a powerful character for the purposes of running a high heroic game or campaign is fine. Nothing wrong with creating heroic characters, we all want to be them (or villians) and if the campaign is set up for them, then so be it. Creating the "IM A LEVEL 141 HALF-CELESTIAL HALF-PARAGON FIRE ELEMENTAL HALF-DRAGON HALF-SUN ELF HALF-DARK ELF LEVEL 45 SORCERER/LEVEL 30 KENSAI/LEVEL 30 BARBARIAN/LEVEL 20 ROGUE/LEVEL 10 ARCHMAGE MADE WITH MY OWN PROGRESSION AND IM ALSO THE CHOSEN OF MYSTRA AND THE CHOSEN OF SUNE, SELUNE AND TYR TOO CAUSE I HAVE THE TEMPLATES AND IM COOL AND I HAVE A +40 SWORD OF OWNAGE THAT MAKES MY CAST SPELLS LIKE A LEVEL WIZARD TOO" is not cool. That is the "ub3r d00d" mentallity that drives me absolutley up the wall. I've had characters that started at level 1, and played them for half a decade or more and got them to high levels through character development, online games I play the powergamer game because i like having the coolest stuff. This mentallity isnt bad, its just suited for my personal tastes and need without being silly or just inane.
Arashi Ravenblade 02-23-04, 01:49 PM	I cant see anything as being a powergamer...as long as the character was madewith my approval and within the rules of the game i dont care how powerful the characters get but they also know what kind of crap i put them upagainst...right now we have an average party of leve lof 14th leve land some of them have aquired some awsome magical items...however thier is death at least once every game session. I had a player once that screamed powergamer or unbalanced everytime something from another book was used even if it was from WOTC...bottom line i think people just like to whine when they dont get thier way...ive had a few of those in my group.
Cherrn 02-23-04, 06:28 PM	Having a powerful character isn't powergaming. Taking different classes for obvious bonuses that doesn't have anything to do with roleplaying is powergaming. A good example would be the 1st lvl Paladin-20 lvl sorcerer character. The character exploiting the fact that a Paladin may add his charisma bonus to saving throws and the fact that a sorcerer naturally will end up with a very high charisma score.
Erpa 02-23-04, 06:51 PM	My attitude towards powergamers are they are the ones who don't make the gaming fun. They are the ones (even at 1st level) who attempt to hoard the most treasure, saying that it "would work best for them." They subsequently also don't use those items, for fear of not having them in their precious inventory lists. They are also the ones that freak out the most when their character takes the most damage, or receives the first attack; yet don't raise a howl when a comrade falls. They are the ones that are purely about themselves, their stats, and how much better their characters are than yours. It's not even about playing, it's about having-having more magic items, having more money, having more than you. I love powerful characters. I love the fact that I've roleplayed my 3 fav characters for 11 years. Are they rather powerful in skills, abilities, and items? You betcha. Do I still get knocked around a lot? OH sure, but that's the fun part of the game. Powergamers don't deal with adversity. Fun players do.
Virgil 02-23-04, 10:21 PM	Let me start by saying frankly, I think some people are taking this a little too seriously...it is as so many have said, only a game, it's time to calm down. Secondly, there is (as many have said) nothing wrong with wanting to make a powerful character. Hell, I don't play DnD to be a boring commoner, I play it to be the hero, and heros are powerful. Third, to those oh so self ritcheous RPers complaining about a powergamer hoarding all the loot, maybe their character is greedy? In which case they've now got you beat on two levels. If not, have your character do something about it in-game or stop complaining. Fourth, there is nothing wrong with a character who takes one level of Paladin and then switches over to Sorcerer. Again, characters in DnD, just as people in Real Life, are aware of their strengths and flaws and are well within their rights to maximize and minimize those traits respectively. Sixth, why should someone limit their power because others in the group arent as powerful? This makes no sense. "Well I could save the world but it might make Timmy the Tool not feel as important..." Heck I've been in groups where I wasn't the most powerful. Did I whine? No. I started looking for power myself. Competition is the father of progress. Finally, using the ability to multi class is NOT powergaming. The rules allow it. Utilizing the rules to the best of their ability is not exploiting the rules. Ultimately, people need to step off their RPing high horse and realize that just because someone doesn't play the game how you want isn't a powergamer. You want to be an average, same-as-everyone else shmoe? There's always Real Life. You want to be a Hero (or Villain)? Play DnD. -Virgil-
Erpa 02-23-04, 10:24 PM	You forgot "fifth" :p And I think you miss a point that the powergamer isn't a team player. Who wants someone like that around?
Lashan 02-23-04, 11:36 PM	I will start off by saying that I believe that "powergaming" is a style of play, and even of a campaign. I think that powergaming is something that the DM is responsible for as much as the players. My version of what powergaming might not be what everyone else's is. I think powergaming is using wildly powerful characters. I think when you play with half-dragon characters, the "Chosen of" template, spellfire, tons of magic items, and a host of rare spells, then that is power gaming. Sure, you might be fighting some really powerful monsters, but that is powergaming (to me). Is there anything wrong with powergaming? Not really. If that is how you like to play, then that is how you like to play. Personally, most of my campaigns seem to wind down when people hit 10th lvl. They just aren't as fun as they used to be. I happen to really like the lower levels when everything is a challenge. I know having puffed up characters fighting 8 puffed up monsters is a challenge, but it just seems over the top for me. I don't like to play it, but it doesn't mean that I should be telling you how to play it, either. These are just my humble opinions about the way I like to play and what I consider power gaming. I'm not saying I am "right".
druid berrymore 02-24-04, 12:17 AM	Originally posted by Lashan Personally, most of my campaigns seem to wind down when people hit 10th lvl. They just aren't as fun as they used to be. I happen to really like the lower levels when everything is a challenge. I agree. Playing characters that some would call "weak" is fun for me. I love the feeling that my character could die at any time. It makes surviving feel good. Having characters that always win sounds really boring to me.
Virgil 02-24-04, 12:39 AM	Hehe so I did, and now that I have calmed down from whatever fix I was on...your right, I didnt intend for it to seem like I enjoy having one powerful player who doesnt work with the team. Wasn't my intention but I see that it came off that way. Also, I didn't intend that I like to play "invinsible characters." Maybe its just that our DM throughs rather high CRs at us so I view Powerful characters not as a luxury, but as a necessity. Again sorry to anyone I may have offended, I dont know what was with me. Later all and best of luck, -Virgil-
Monde 02-24-04, 01:52 AM	Virgil.... I agree with some of your points and I understand that we all have our own opinions. But my version of powergaming does differ from yours. I am of the belief that a player must play his character and not the stats. Sure make him powerful but don't min max him to get great skills. We don't do that in real life because we don't have numbers for our skills. We had a Paladin in our last campaign(we havent played in 6 months because of this) and he destroyed the adventure. He spent most of his time whinning becasue an elf ranger did more damage than his paladin. The fact that he min maxed his paladin as a mounted paladin had nothing to do with it. In the end the game fell apart because he would sulk and complain if he didn't get first pick of any items (magic or non-magic). He was all about stats and his characters development came second. On the other hand one another one of our players had an elf character with a strength and dex at 20. This was because he rolled two 18's. THis is a powerful character but not powergaming as the character was structured around the character and not his 20's COnfusing made but it makes sense to me :D
ElGrecoETAC 02-24-04, 02:15 AM	The only gamers I have any problem with now that we are in the 3E/revised editions are the ones that figure out the best number-crunching ways to optimize races and classes, and follow those routes heedless of either the concept of creative character progression or the flavor of the campaign the DM is trying to spin. There's pursuing a goal ("I'd like to get Weapon Finesse next level because I envision a swashbuckler-type character"), and then there's just out-and-out metagaming ("OK, I know I'm level 1 now, but here's the 'build' I'm looking at pursuing with this character.") :rolleyes:
toftof 02-24-04, 05:18 AM	I can't agree with you ElGreco. The challenges I am throwing at my players use all the ressource I have , and I can come up with pretty creative stuff to catch the players off guard. I expect them to do just the same thing. What's wrong in real life to say I want to be a neuro surgeon specialized in brain tumors. Why should a character decide to be become a wizard incantatrix archmage specialized in demon crushing? Just using the point buy system and then choosing classes force you into making choices. There is nothing wrong in optimizing those choices. You are mistaking powergaming and optimizing. Please have a look at the character optimization board and especially to its FAQ for more information.
the_heart 02-24-04, 05:21 AM	Originally posted by Erpa And I think you miss a point that the powergamer isn't a team player. Who wants someone like that around? what!!! when did they decide powergamers weren't team players??!!
Nahar 02-24-04, 05:28 AM	ElGrecho - I'm guilty of sitting down and planning what feats and levels I'm going to get and when. Every last one. I guess I just see the game mechanic stuff as hugely less important than the playing of the game. But I didn't do it in front of the other PC's and the DM during game time, complete with running commentary. And I have changed stuff as the character developed through roleplaying.
Monde 02-24-04, 05:41 AM	Nahar... I do not see any problem with that as long as you change or you role play your character.....I plan my characters also and they do change as I play them because their persoanlities grow. But if you take feats or skills to make your character better because of the numbers and not because of the charatcer then I have a problem with it. If you are take a level of Ranger so that you get the two weapon fighting feat before your take all of your fighter levels then you are a powergamer. I believe that if at any stage you use the rules to your advantage at the cost of your character (role playing) then you are powergaming. Powerful characters are fine as long as they make sense and are Role played. In my campaigns the distinction I make is between Role playing and Roll Playing.
toftof 02-24-04, 05:51 AM	Monde, I have to disagree with you too, if you refer to dragon magazines, there are several issues which have provided class combo for flavor and optimization, like the skald (barbarian bard) etc, explaining the advantages and flaws of such builds. Having a 2 weapon fighting ranger/figher isn't a issue from my point of view (remember that this might cause penalties in term of xp, saves or whatever to go multiclass instead of single class). Again one should be able to see the difference between optimizing and powergaming, everything is about balance and roleplay. Anything that a player will do which lacks flavor, has not been agreed by the DM, goes against the rules or unbalance the party should be put back in place by the DM. I don't thing there are that many powergamers, there is a bit too many lenient DMs who are not fullfilling totally their role of referee. The one with the last word about the game should always be the DM.
Nahar 02-24-04, 05:59 AM	Originally posted by Monde Nahar... I do not see any problem with that as long as you change or you role play your character. Neither do I. Was trying to say, as nicely as I could, that optimisation and powergaming are two different things. And that also, optimisation can really look like powergaming if you're being a bit over the top.....or doing it at the table while everyone else is trying to play. :eek:
Monde 02-24-04, 06:04 AM	Sorry I have never read a Dragon magazine.....Down here in the good old RSA (south Africa) I have not see them. Or at least new issues. I have no problem with multiclass characters at all infact I have a few of them myself. I have aproblem when the other class is take just so that you can get a specific feat or ability of that class. I have no problem if the player can tell me why his character has that class and role plays the character accordingly. If they are only taking it to get abilities then it is not on. I have had Human Wizards that started out as fighters (not me but my players). I know for a fact that they took them so that they could get weapon feats and hp but they explained the reasons correctly and had good reasons for changing to Wizard. That is fine with me but they also played the character as a would be fighter turned Wizard. IF they took one class fighter and then played their character as a complete Wizard then I have a problem.
Monde 02-24-04, 06:07 AM	Nahar.. I think that you and I are on pretty much the same page in this regard. :)
ElGrecoETAC 02-24-04, 06:29 AM	I guess I just have a much wider definition of power gaming, then. I feel that character development should be in character. If you are playing in a group and the DM says that everyone starts at level "X", as opposed to from scratch, then yes--you adjust accordingly, build your PC in a way that makes sense, while trying to make it fit with an interesting backstory. There is, in my opinion, however, a huge difference between a real life person saying "I will become a neurosurgeon", or a PC with aspirations of knighthood or of becoming a great wizard; and a player who plans out level by level his eventual ascension to the Incantatrix anti-demon specialist. The former indicates goals and dreams that are both conceivable and realistic for the young beginning adventurer. Planning out your PC to level 20, however, ignores realistic development and the curveballs that life throws you. Here's an example. Say we have someone who starts off with a 3.5 Ranger, and envisions him as a gifted archer. He advances in levels, and picks up feats that make him better at this. A few levels into his growth, without DM malice or intentional screwing over, he loses a hand somehow. If you're playing a character for that character's sake, as part of a story, this could be a momentous turn--a defining moment of your character's life, and a source for all sorts of RP'ing possibilities. What will you become now--what will you do now that the way of the bow is effectively closed off to you? If you're playing a character that has been planned out, build-wise, however, that character is now ruined, because to you he was not just the character you had then, but the end product you were hoping for as well. Now that he cannot be the optimized archer you envisioned, the drawing board has been ruined. Even if your DM sets you up for a quest to find a "legendary ring that regenerates limbs", any levels you gain by the time you find it will have been wasted--if you had to spend feats you gained on non-archery powers. It makes, IMHO, your "career" the end-all be-all, and aims more at maximization of stats and power as opposed to the flavor that might be attained if one allows the DM's campaign and story to color the character. Worst of all, it in some way or form makes most regional and non-tree Feats a 'waste' as compared to core feats that branch out to something greater down the line. By this line of thinking, why would any player give his Waterdhavian fighter the Education or Cosmopolitan feats?
toftof 02-24-04, 07:18 AM	Monde, now I do agree with you, and I wouldn't allow a character to turn from 1 level fighter to wizard, I'll have him go through apprenticeship, just flavorwise, that will probably deter any of my players from having this kind of behaviour. It doesn't have anything to do with roleplay and optimization. Elgreco: I completely understand your point, but having a concept and build and trying to stick to it when the campaign has make it impossible will show the difference between the powergamer (which will probably make a scene of having his concept ruined) and the optimizer which will try to modify his build on the fligh taking aboard all the new development. Something else I was thinking is players buying objects to increase the power of their characters. I don't allow my players to buy stuff if they don't have the proper knowledge of the object or magic it does before hand. Exemple, the ring of bliking for a rogue is an terribly powerful item. Without having encountering any blinking mage or creature, my rogue player has no chance to conceive that such an item exist without involving metagaming. This makes the debat deepens, as the frontier between metagamer, powergamer and optimizer is very slim, make the role of the DM a bit more difficult when you have the worst of those players types at your table, doesn't it?
ElGrecoETAC 02-24-04, 08:21 AM	Originally posted by toftof Something else I was thinking is players buying objects to increase the power of their characters. I don't allow my players to buy stuff if they don't have the proper knowledge of the object or magic it does before hand. Exemple, the ring of bliking for a rogue is an terribly powerful item. Without having encountering any blinking mage or creature, my rogue player has no chance to conceive that such an item exist without involving metagaming. That's a great idea, and one of my "won't budge" rules. :)
Erpa 02-24-04, 09:59 AM	Originally posted by Virgil Hehe so I did, and now that I have calmed down from whatever fix I was on...your right, I didnt intend for it to seem like I enjoy having one powerful player who doesnt work with the team. Wasn't my intention but I see that it came off that way. Also, I didn't intend that I like to play "invinsible characters." Maybe its just that our DM throughs rather high CRs at us so I view Powerful characters not as a luxury, but as a necessity. Again sorry to anyone I may have offended, I dont know what was with me. Later all and best of luck, -Virgil- No worries Virgil; I was being a bit snarky. ;) I guess what it comes down to is our own perceptions of "powerful characters." If a PC is made to be powerful, that I don't find much interest in. If a PC becomes powerful, well, that's just a story worth hearing. :D
Erpa 02-24-04, 10:02 AM	Originally posted by the_heart what!!! when did they decide powergamers weren't team players??!! Well, I don't know who "they" are, or what "they" think, but I've yet to meet anyone in my definition of powergamers that could be considered altruistic or giving by any stretch of the definition.
Monde 02-24-04, 10:04 AM	I am there with you Erpa. I could not agree more.
WizO_BigSister 02-24-04, 11:46 AM	Sprinkles Fairy dust of Sweetness and Light over the thread :angel: Seriously people, this is a very emotional topic and could easily deteriorate into a flame war ... it already has on numerous occasions! The aim of the game is for people to enjoy playing it! Please remember every single game is different. Every group has their own way of balancing playing in character and optomising their character. Every group has their own level of metagaming where the players know more than the characters do. As long as the group as a whole is happy with the style then its ok! Lets take it a given that we all agree using a player style that wrecks the game for the rest of the group is a no no :sad: If this is a prerequisite then nobody has the right to say another group is not allowed to play in the unique style they have developed. Remember the Golden Rule! “It is ok to disagree with what someone has written; it is not ok to attack the person who wrote it. If you can't tell the difference then maybe you shouldn't make the post!" You areallowed to say "I prefer to play style A vs style B", and give your reasons. You are not allowed to say "style B is awful and you shouldn't be allowed to play that way and everyone who does is an idiot". You are also not allowed to sneer at any style of playing.
the_heart 02-24-04, 12:02 PM	Originally posted by Erpa Well, I don't know who "they" are, or what "they" think, but I've yet to meet anyone in my definition of powergamers that could be considered altruistic or giving by any stretch of the definition. ah! this would be the same school of thought that seems to feel that powergamers can't role play and that is one reason i would campaign for a more non-judgemental set of terms. because to me 'powergamer' is synonymous with optimiser, and is not a derogatory term (although i see many differ :) ). a disruptive player would be a 'munchkin' if anything. i powergame/optimise extensively but i would defy anyone to justify that i am a disruptive element, if anything i'll be the one to hold the group together. as a rough (very rough) example, how about referring to campigns by power level. +4 stat mods would be low +8 or more would be high. or by complexity. restricted(core with further limits) simple(core only) standard(core and DM's approval) open(few restrictions). because whilst disruptive play is bad by any definition, multiple classes chosen because they complement each other isn't neccessarily bad.
Lashan 02-24-04, 12:11 PM	What I think is going on is there is some disagreement as to what the term "power gamer" is. I see the lone person who has uber items and is distruptive at the table to be a "munchkin". I see a campaign of very powerful characters taking on very powerful enemies as "power gaming". Of course, these are just my definitions. And just for the record, a campaign with +4 ability modifier is not "Low" for me! I have a current game running with about 7 people and I think that *maybe* one character has that much of a modifier on their primary ability.
the_heart 02-24-04, 12:17 PM	ah! that +4 is for total stat mods. not highest.
Ramius_Mordale 02-24-04, 01:06 PM	Power gamers enjoy accumulating levels, skills, feats, magic items, and other things that beef up their characters. They like to do this by the most efficient means possible. Although they can be bribed into acting out their characters' thoughts and motivations, they mostly look at their PCs as pieces on a board, like the top hat in Monopoly.- article in Dragon Magazine Issue 281 written by Robin D. Laws. That's your definition ladies and gents of a powergamer from Dragon Magazine. Now what I asked was is playing a powerful character powergaming. Like say powergaming is playing anything with a template such as a half-celetial or a lizard folk? Maybe someone playing a standard character with high stats is a powergamer? But what if you add in this little bit, say an awesome storyline and well defined personality? Still powergaming? Hmm... basicly that little excerpt up there says we are all powergamers even if you want to play a loremaster or maybe just a shadowdancer. Now I'm not saying powergaming is terrible and something that needs to be smote with a divine hammar forged from Moradin himself. What I'm asking is playing a powerful character powergaming? And I asked the question to just start up some debate not for it to get emotional. Cause one thing I like to do is start friendly debates. I hope you all keep discussing it further but as I will remind you all to keep any emotional out burst under control and all opinions are to be respected. And respect means not attacking people for their opinions. If you would like to persuade someones opinion do it the diplomatic way and give them your opinion. Just keep the coversations clean and the discussions logical debate. Thanks.
Ramius_Mordale 02-24-04, 06:20 PM	Eh, sorry forgot to say one thing about the powergaming thing, what I meant to say is that we all have powergaming tendancies. Meaning we all in one fashion or the other pick certain feats for every 1 to 2 levels ahead of our level, or to achieve a certain prestige class. By the way, feel free to talk about disagreeing with that quote, but that is what was offically posted in Dragon. I just thought it would smooth out things a tad and give a base line for the definition of power gamer. I didn't mean for the last post to stomp out additional posts. I just wanted to give additional information to add to the discussion. But if your done your done and I respect that, but feel free to continue the discussion whenever.
Erpa 02-24-04, 06:46 PM	Originally posted by the_heart ah! this would be the same school of thought that seems to feel that powergamers can't role play Ah! See, again, that is from my POV and past experience. I could probably post some of my higher level characters and be told that I'm also a powergamer. Like ..um someone else said (sorry, I don't have the name!), it is all in how you enjoy the game, and how you play-or, how the DM allows you to play also. If it were to come to it; I'm sure we could talk at length on our views of the "powerful PC" versus the 'powergamer' (sorry, this is also the first time I've heard the munchkin phrase used. That threw me for a loop. ;) )
Nahar 02-24-04, 07:10 PM	I never wanted to say that powergamers can't roleplay. IMO, anyone who does roleplay isn't a powergamer, not vice versa. It's your attitude towards the game that really defines this kind of thing. And let's face it, very few people will actually agree on that kind of thing, hence the length of this thread! Differing opinions are neccesary, you just need to find out where your debate stems from and compromise, if need be.
WizO_BigSister 02-25-04, 12:23 AM	Originally posted by Erpa Like ..um someone else said (sorry, I don't have the name!), it is all in how you enjoy the game, and how you play-or, how the DM allows you to play also. That would be me ... the moderator ;) reminding you all of the purpose the company makes the game for, and the moderator teams attitude to anyone trying to claim their form of role-playing is the "right" one and others are inferior or wrong. It seems the bottom is that there are as many definitions of "powergamer" as there are posters. This means the whole debate is starting to go round in circles.
Monde 02-25-04, 02:53 AM	My definition of powergamer is different from some people. I am of the opinion (right or wrong) that anyone who plays DND is a powergamer in some small way so I take :censored::censored::censored: as as read that we are all powergamers. Hence I use the word powergaming for munchkins and Uber Character builders who roll play. I have a character who has stats in the twenties....and I did roll the 2 18's properly...I promise. He is a very cool ranger and is awesome but I don't consider that powergaming.......On the other hand another one of our players had a highest roll of 15 and all he did was maximise his damage.....trying to get a magic weapona nd complaining that if anyone else got a weapon that he needed it because he did less damage...that I believe is powergaming. IMHO.... Maybe I use the wrong word...maybe not :)
the_heart 02-25-04, 04:54 AM	hmmm! i definitely and firmly disagree with that quote as it stands. it should not preclude role play in the way it does. it's an absolute. i firmly believe that in 'absolute definitions' there is a danger of lazy thinking. by basing everything on that one defintion it is often easy to forget that it doesn't apply in all circumstances (or even in most circumstances). therein lies the danger of all stereotyping! but thats just one man's opinion. using that definition though, then playing a powerful character would be powergaming.
Ramius_Mordale 02-25-04, 07:53 AM	Alright, well here the fair assestment I have come up with from all of your opinions on powergaming. First of all it sounds like you all think it is a load of crap that is the definition of a powergamer, which in my opinion was quite harsh to describe such a person. And since I have had Bigsister talk twice about ending this thread I guess since I started I'll end it. From what I can tell is that we view powergaming as mainly a mentality that isn't bad nor wrong way to play. A Powergamer isn't a bad PC, and that was never my intent which some people on here have seemed to take as such. I did not start this thread to intend to alienate Powergamers in since of the word, even in the qoute's definition I gave. I have played with and have a good friend I suppose you could call a powergamer and he is just as good as a PC as any other PC that has a different playing style, whatever that may be. Munchkins and ub3r doods are just funny terms to me to describe selfish people who are just bent on playing a game for their pure pleasure for power and their own fun no one else's from what I gather from you all. Now by posting this thread I was trying to get people to think and discuss a topic. I didn't care if it looped around and around over the topic cause people have the right of giving their opinion. And if someone's opinion agreed with anothers opinion so be it. And Monde no one said you powergamed cause you have two 20s. Hey man thats cool, I would love to have those stats any day. Especially if I was going to play a drow. ;) And see there I like to play drow, nothing wrong there, never read the books and don't know why you all talk about Drizzt so passionately as you do cause from what I heard he is just a book character and never was RPed then written about. And finally I would like to impart with this: That play what you want and play the way you want. There is a reason why you 'PLAY' the game is to have fun. There is no wrong way to 'PLAY' thats why you play, geesh. Plus it is never wrong to have a discussion even if it loops around countless times. That's why it is a message board, to give opinions and you have to loop around to hear the majority's opinion. You shouldn't stomp out friendly conversations as long as it isn't breaking any rules. And thats all I'm going to say about that. So ladies and gents this concludes this thread. I hope all parties are satisfied, and that some of you enjoyed the discussion. Have fun, good journeys and live a long, happy life.
WizO_BigSister 02-25-04, 12:20 PM	I want to make a few things clear * All my posts on this thread have been general comments, aimed at preventing things turning really nasty like they have in the past, and NOT directed at any individual * I have not even hinted at closing the thread :confused: This topic is still very much open! * My comment about the debate going in circles because we all have a different definition didn't mean "shut up" .... it meant "perhaps we should either state our own definitions clearly with each post, or we should agree on the definition for this thread."
Monde 02-26-04, 02:14 AM	And Monde no one said you powergamed cause you have two 20s. I never thought that they did Ramius_Mordale. I was using it as an example. I really enjoyed this thread and did not get upet with anyone or their views......I hope I didn't upset anyone. Thus was a very good discussion. I must admit WizO_BigSister that I also took your posts the same way as Ramius_Mordale at first but after the second read I understood what you meant Thanks again.
the_heart 02-26-04, 04:32 AM	Originally posted by Monde I really enjoyed this thread and did not get upet with anyone or their views......I hope I didn't upset anyone. endorse and echo! even if i am stubborn, i still enjoy these discussions. :D by it's very nature almost any term that some see as derogatory and others see as merely a descriptor, there will be differences of opinion. i feel very strongly that the fluff(role) and crunch(roll) parts of the game are seperate and distinct from one another. skill with one neither suggests or precludes skill in the other. definitions such as that in the dragon magazine would appear to indicate that you can only be good at one at the expense of the other. which sounds more reasonable? :)
Ramius_Mordale 02-26-04, 09:39 AM	Hmm... my apologizes. Perhaps I jumped the gun as well and didn't read more closely. Eh, well were all human. =P :) Sorry for the misconceptions and Bigsister sorry I usually don't know how to react to authority figures. Might be the reason why I like playing rogues all the time. ;) You know us rogues once you start sniffing around we get nervous. =P Bad habit I better break I guess. Again sorry, plus Monde sorry for misreading your post I thought with all the censered stuff on the last post you were angry, my bad. After rereading it a second time I saw that you weren't. Oh and Bigsister thanks for your help and trying to keep the thread from not getting all out of control. Plus this is directed as an answer to the_heart I totally disagree with one definition defining a PC or their skill. Personally I dispise such sterotyping cause all PCs run the gambit of emotions, skills, etc. In my opinion, sterotyping is a quick way of causing rifts between players and good friends, especially just trying to define their playing styles. Most people don't like to be defined as just in one group. Ah well I'll just leave with that I suppose if you all wish keep the discussion going. Again apologies to everyone for the misconceptions on my part. Adios for now.
Monde 02-26-04, 09:58 AM	Originally posted by Ramius_Mordale Again sorry, plus Monde sorry for misreading your post I thought with all the censered stuff on the last post you were angry, my bad. After rereading it a second time I saw that you weren't. No problem at all. This brings up an interesting point though...I meant to write I take it as read but the it became censored......Confused. It is possible that I never wrote that as I do reply to this forum while at work....I often forget which monitor and window I am actually typing in.:confused: Well glad everything is sorted out. :)
Taeleraed_Saahdel 02-26-04, 03:35 PM	Coming from a former power-gamer, I, now as a DM, have come to face a fact that many DMs face with their players...How high can I level up my character? My first DM had the habit of, after ending a session, say 'you all gain a level'. After about 2 yrs, I had a level 10brd/25rgr/20bbn/20wiz/5chm/10arc/5acm...and I realized, I was bored of being so powerful...I wanted to, essentialy, start the character over at level one. I thought of ways to do this...I had ideas for clones, alternate universes, etc...until my brother approached me with the idea of a lifetime...negative energy. With an inventive little adventure based upon the plane of shadow. I returned from that plane with my character as once again a 1st-level character. I didn't need to know what he threw at me, he simply smiled and said 'I guess you'll never know'. I was happy to have my character back, armed with only a dormant moonblade. I got a second chance...Now the character sits at a comfortable 28 levels (10brd/14rgr/1clr/4hrp), and is no more powerful than Storm Silverhand. He is a Chosen of Corellon, yes, making him around CR 32, but I like to think of myself as humble in my power. If you want to call him a power character, be my guest, but I've never seen a power character fall to a horde of gibberlings. (Advice: move, shoot, move)
Mazarick 02-26-04, 10:16 PM	First of all, I'd like to say there have been many good points made in this conversation. I'm also very happy to see that it's been kept calm and everyone's opinions have been respected...something that isn't always happening in the Wizards forums. And now, my opinions on powergaming... Sure, it can be amusing to think of the absolute grossest combination of classes/templates etc for a given ECL. Imagining what they could do to a horde of orcs is amusing...but really, would anyone have a good amount of fun playing it? Probably not. A half elven Barb2/Bard3/Fighter4/Swashbuckler3/Bladesinger10/DragonDisciple10 is a pretty gross combination, and would look nifty with it's wings and all... But geez! When you can't die at all, it's pretty boring. I don't have any real distaste for that kind of min/maxing powergaming. What I DON'T like, however (and I don't really know why) are the people who play monks and at first level start saying, "I run across the room and jump off the wall and kick him." I guess I just don't like DBZ in my fantasy RPGs...but...eh. It seems out of place, to me... Really, as the DM, I'm at fault for that though. So...what's my point? I don't know... Do what you want, but respect the DMs wishes.
dragonheart 02-29-04, 12:54 PM	As another player with a powerful character who is also a DM I have "fun" wiht both sides of this. so my opinion? Figuring out a set of stats/ feats and skills and then creating a history to allow you have that set - your a munchkin. Creating a personality and history and then taking the most appropriate feats, etc. your a player. playing (or DMing) for your personal pleasure exclusively? Munchkin, Playing in character so everyone has fun - your a player. If your character is so powerful you don't really need the rest of the party - Munchkin; if you need 5 other 25th level characters to help you deal with the problem - your a player. What really ticks me off is not munchkin plaers but the DM version - the Killer DM who gets his jollies "beating" the characters every week. MAke it a challenge, I use the rule of 25% - if you don't watch out upto 25% of the characters could easily die in any adventure. sure there is a little munchkin in all of us :) we have egos I enjoy my fantasies of what my character could be like at 110+ levels with all sorts of prestige classes but after I've had my fun imagining I like to bring it down to something playable with other folks and in the power realm of the campaign I'm in.
Nightingale 7 02-29-04, 02:43 PM	I thought I'd pipe in with my views about powergaming.To everyone's surprise I might say that I find powergaming helps more than hinders a roleplaying game. Now I should say that I differentiate powergamers from munchkins. A powergamer is a player who wants to play a battle optimized dagger-wielding rogue-type,and opts to build a fighter/swashbuckler/rogue/invisible blade.At that points,someone can see the number of classes involved,and shout out "POWERGAMER",but in essence he just optimizes his archetype.You could say he could just build a straight rogue,with combat feats,but he would not really be combat-optimized if he could hit sparingly,and go "splat" against a full-melee opponent,right?He KNOWS he can't deal well with the undead,because he went through the trouble of learning the rules in order to build this complex characters.It involved multi-classing,correct feats and skills choices,and various other things that newcomers have difficulties with at the beginning. He will just have to let the party cleric deal with the undead,or the party tank with the golems.THIS "powergamer" is also a good team-player A munchkin is one who wants to play a monk/rogue/assassin,because "ninjas are so damn kewl and uber!".Then he is going to :censored::censored::censored::censored: :censored: continuously about why that barbarian resisted his death attack,why his dagger can't damage that skeleton etc,while being ALMOST TOTALLY ignorant of the rules.I've sincerely met players who told me "I want to play an assassin.Build me a good one.":OMG! Powergaming encourages peole delving deeper and learning the rules,and some times it may help roleplaying.My view of a cleric of Ilmatter is a man in brown robes,giving charity,and only uses his fists to defend himself as the last possible action.By building a monk 1/cleric X with the Vows of Poverty,Non-Violence and Peace,I am powergaming,true,but in doing so I make a more RP-accurate Ilmatari priest,who can help his party without wearing full plate and casting Flame Strikes in Ilmater's name!(that would be a straight,not-tweaked cleric) I'm not saying that that's always the point,but I see that most cases of one-upmanship,trying to be an uberdood,and totally wrecking party cohesion,stems from young inexperienced gamers who just graduated from Diablo and Everquest.They enter the game with delusions of grandeur and end up being very annoying,especially if their character is not optimized. In my opinion Powergaming involves delving deeper into the game,and presents even a sliver of hope that the player could be immersed in the game and the setting,so he can become a better roleplayer.
thalious 02-29-04, 09:07 PM	Powergaming does not exist IMC since I as a DM could always out match anything the players think of and create due to the nature of my position. DMs who whine about powergaming, min/maxing, and munchkins should just burn their books and dice and do paint by numbers--which is much more controllable than D&D players.
Monde 03-01-04, 01:56 AM	Originally posted by thalious DMs who whine about powergaming, min/maxing, and munchkins should just burn their books and dice and do paint by numbers--which is much more controllable than D&D players. Please do note that it is not always the DM that complains about powergaming. What if you are a player and the DM does nothing about it. We played a campaign with a Min/Max'ed, Munchkin and this character was sooo powerful that the DM had to throw tougher opponents against us......this killed everyone in the party who was trying to play an optimized (powergaming) character. After rolling up a 3rd character in a month and the DM not lsitening to you it does put a dampener on the campaign. There is nothing wrong with powergaming, Min. Maxing, Munchkining etc as long as everyone is on the same page. If one person does it and the rest of the players don't want to do it it will destroy the balance and the enjoyment of the entire campaign for everyone excluding the powergaming, Min. Maxing, Munchkining etc player. IMHO anyway.
Ramius_Mordale 03-01-04, 04:21 AM	Well seeing that DMs do have great power this is true, but there is always an unsaid trust between PCs and DM that he will not abuse his powers. That being said I'm not saying DMs can't DO whatever they want, but if the DM is just having fun killing PCs thats not okay. Plus no one wants to see his (DM) time asorbed by one PC/munckin player because he has to sit down and out min/max (with all his npcs) a character. What the DMs job is to do is make sure the world runs smoothly and that all players stay as closely balanced as possible. That way Mr. Munchkin can't bully the group or being so powerful that the DM has to throw completely impossible challenges at a group just cause of one PC/Munchkin player. If that senerio comes up I, in my opinion, would just ask the other player (munchkin) to roll up a new character to play until the group could catch up with his original character. But obiviously you would just make it hard for him to make another such character by slapping some cuffs on and restrict him from certain magic items/gold for this subsitute character at creation. In any case, thats all I really had to say..... or is it? ;)
Ramius_Mordale 03-01-04, 04:49 AM	Oh by the way, the_heart I meant to say I agreed with your last post. Sometimes I write in stream of thought and i get ahead of myself, so it reads a tad off. I meant to agree with you by saying that I also disagree that sterotyping a PC doesn't tell anything about a characters playing potential. Eh, also what happened to WizO_BigSister, didn't mean to scare you off BigSis. :( I hope that clearifies somethings about a few post back. Oh and as always keep the boards clean and such. And keep the opinions rolling in.
WizO_BigSister 03-01-04, 05:46 AM	My own personal viewpoint ... I hate the terms munchkin and powergamer because they mean something different for every single person who uses them, and they are pretty much loaded with negative emotions (even if the person using them doesn't intend to be insulting). So I think the answer to the question "Is having a Powerful Character powergaming?" is ... it depends totally on the person who is answering ;)
azildurn 03-01-04, 10:32 AM	My opinion is it depends on the character. If you're playing true to your characters "personality" then the power level is irrelevent. If on the other hand your character has no "personality" and you're just playing to gain various abilities or you regularly violate the character's "personality" to gain power, then yes. That's not to say that power gaming is all bad. It's not for me and most other role-player types, but if that's what your group likes then hey...it is just a game and it is about recreation so power game away.
thalious 03-01-04, 11:44 AM	Originally posted by WizO_BigSister My own personal viewpoint ... I hate the terms munchkin and powergamer because......they are pretty much loaded with negative emotions (even if the person using them doesn't intend to be insulting). Perhaps the terms could be added to list of other words that cannot be typed in the boards?
azildurn 03-01-04, 12:26 PM	LOL, nice...now that was funny.
Monde 03-02-04, 02:09 AM	Originally posted by thalious Perhaps the terms could be added to list of other words that cannot be typed in the boards? Why? This has ben a very good discussion. True we have gone in circles but no-one has seriously flamed anyone else. It has been good to see what other people think and feel. Is this not what forums are about? True this has been a topic where you have to be careful as people can gets their backs up. But what makes this one so good is that it has been going for a while and no one (I hope) feels like they havent been heard or that they are being attacked. Personally I think that banning those words is going a bit far. Azildurn I could not agree with you more. :cool:
thalious 03-02-04, 10:14 AM	Originally posted by Monde Why? This has ben a very good discussion. True we have gone in circles but no-one has seriously flamed anyone else. It has been good to see what other people think and feel. Is this not what forums are about? True this has been a topic where you have to be careful as people can gets their backs up. But what makes this one so good is that it has been going for a while and no one (I hope) feels like they havent been heard or that they are being attacked. Personally I think that banning those words is going a bit far. Azildurn I could not agree with you more. :cool: My reasons for wanting the words banned is because more often than not, the words in question are used in a hostile, negative, and insulting manner that serve no useful purpose for the boards as a whole. This particular thread has not digressed, but others certainly have.
azildurn 03-03-04, 06:40 PM	My reasons for wanting the words banned is because more often than not This type of attituded is, IMHO, the single worse thing about message boards. Companies certainly have a legal right to ban anything they want from their halls, servers, etc. but this attitude of "it offends me so it should be banned" is childish. You don't have a right to not be offended or irritated or anything else. As much as a corporate board is not a free speach issue in the sense that it is privately owned by a company which can make any rules they want (or should be able to) they do attempt to mimic a public common area and too often the owners and or participants don't realize that for the message board and community to work properly you have to let people say things you don't like or agree with. BTW, I really thought you were being sarcastic above when you suggested that the words be banned...otherwise I wouldn't have "laughed". I didn't mean to caustically dismiss your suggestion...I really thought it was a joke aimed at the WotC folks. My apologies for the misunderstanding. In short, I believe that banning anything decreases the usefulness of the boards and the community every time it happens so I'm definitely against banning it. Ok, RANT OFF.
Lerris 03-03-04, 08:40 PM	By banning words you actually bring attention to them ans some will still get around the banned words by changing the spelling or chracters slightly, so I personally say just ignore them if they are used. Now as to Powergaming, a touchy subject to be sure, everybody have there own opinions upon Powergaming mine tend to bend towards creating a chracter that leans only one way. What i mean is taht in the campain we've reacontly started we started as level 6 characters and on another board as well as this one I requested assistance in regards to a few things. Well they asked why I was creating a druid that wasn't entirly magic orientated, my response started a large agument even though I didn't intend it do so. I said that yes I may be starting at Level 6 but my Druid started out as a fighter and a dwarf too boot so having a chracter that could actually do some damage in melee didn't sound out of place to me, having one with as many spell feats as I could get would be concentrating upon one thing and in my own opinion classed as powergaming. They then started critisising my idea with one guy in particular saying that don't bother requesting help when i die in my first battle or along those lines. Only one person stuck up for me saying that he applauded that descion saying 'So simply put, you took feats and placed skills as a roleplaying venture rather than for working towards the optimum PC? I salute you' This was in regards to tha fact that I said that having a chracter that was going to react in the same way too everything was pretty dull to play so by giving my character a unique twist I've got one to really stick my teeth into. Well thats my 2 cents worth have no idea what i was trying to say I'll leave it up to you all to decide.
Monde 03-04-04, 02:11 AM	Lerris I could not agree with you more....I have had some very powerful characters but my favourite character had no stats above 14 and only one other stat at 12. He was not a strong powerful character at all but he lived through the most extra ordinary circumstances by being creative. I don't see powergaming as the stats or the numbers but how you play / create your character. They then started critisising my idea with one guy in particular saying that don't bother requesting help when i die in my first battle or along those lines People who say things like this are IMHO incorrect. If you ask for help people should give you advice and not critise you for your idea. They should offer advice with your idea in mind or not at all. If they think you are wrong they should say it but not make comments like the quote above. If this post makes sense I will be amazed.....hangover :behold:
Monsoon28 03-04-04, 08:23 AM	To answer the question... Is having a Powerful Character powergaming? It really depends on the persons attitude. I'll admit it I'm a "Powergamer" If I'm making a Wizard then yes my highest stat is Int, but I won't always take Spellcasting Prodigy. I'm also a Role-Player I like creating a background and developing a personality type. But to me, all persons "Powergame" and "Min/Max", when creating a character we usually give our highest stats to the prime ability, we usually max out Skills most important to our class. Another example is a Rogue I was role-playing, he was a Con-man style Rogue so I "powergamed" by giving him a one of my best rolls to Charisma, and Maxing out Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, Bluff and Listen. Now in no way was he a powerful character and he usually tried to avoid any direct combat. In fact that's how he died in the end. He wasn't a Powerful Character and He was all about the Personality but he was still powergamed. "Munchkins" in my interpretation is a term for the worst of players, who's only goal is their own enjoy and "screw everyone else" The 'Item hogs' who are always trying to convince everyone else why they should get this and that item. And those who hoard items 'just because'. Another example in my first 3E Campaign I was playing a Fighter, now he was easily the most Powerful character in the group (thanks to some great roles on the dice) But I had an image of who he was. Now the DM liked to tailor awards to characters in this case a Cashe including a +3 Great Sword. But my character was a Bastard Sword and Shield type of Guy and had no interest in the great sword and even suggested selling it, if no one else wanted it. If I had been a Munchkin I would have grabbed the sword just to have a really Uber Item (we were only 5th lvl at the time.) Sorry if you find this post long just thought some examples helped make a clearer picture. Peace...
WizO_BigSister 03-04-04, 09:23 AM	Originally posted by Monde Why? This has ben a very good discussion. True we have gone in circles but no-one has seriously flamed anyone else. Oh yes they have (and how!) ... but with the application of a pair a of pruning shears and a large dollop of common sense from the vast majority of those posting on this topic we have kept the discussion alive and flame free. LOADS of gold stars and brownie points to all concerned :bow: :bow: My previous post about not liking the term much did say that was a personal opinion ... which means it wasn't official. I would never even consider banning words like "munchkin" and "powergamer". Banned words are highly offensive to some groups of people (such as racist terms) and/or obscene.
dwarfdorn 03-05-04, 05:36 PM	Is having a powerful character powergaming... It depends on how you got there. When I run a campaign, I tend to focus on the Rolepaying/personality aspect more than the feats and the like. I make this apparent when we generate the characers... I require the players to have flaws. Whether they are reflected in stats or just in the character, doesn't matter. Everyone has a weak spot and only the DM has to know besides the PC. IF the player goes out of character too much then you talk with them. If that doesn't work then punish them. If the player :censored::censored::censored::censored: :censored:es too much, bump him/her out of the group and find another person to fill the spot. As a DM you have to ensure that everyone has fun most of the time. If someone isn't making this possible, then you have to do something about it. Is powergaming okay? Sure if everyone wants to play that way. No if they don't. Heck that preetty much sums it up...
Frostbite_Ravenheart 03-07-04, 02:44 PM	Is having a powerfull character powergaming? Nah I dont care who you ask...having a powerfull character then being called a powergamer is called jelousy. Plan and simple. The person who called you a powergamer probably was jelous of the fact that you have good creation-building skills. Its not a bad thing to have bad creation skills. Some good are good at others things like backround making or ingame rps. Some people are so good that they stun the dm with would-be-famous-quotes-if-they-were-famous. -Frosty