Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dunion 12-18-06, 04:44 AM	I started playing this campaing back in 1998 and in this 8 years our characters have evolved from 1st level (back in 2nd ed.) priests of Tyr (mine) and Mystra (my friend) to lvl19 cleric/divine disciple and lvl21 cleric of Mystra. There are other characters involved but they're not relevant to the question i wanna ask. Basically the adventure was based in Cormyr, my chars adopted country, and we were trying to foil a plot to kill King Azoun and start a civil war. We knew that the person behind the whole scheme was some sort of a powerful cleric or mage that was a worshipper of Shar but we had no real idea who he was and what exactly he was gonna do. As well as that In addition my char is a Lionar in the Purple Dragons. Anyway we were in the middle of nowhere, stuck in snow, when the villain's proxsies ambush us. After a gruesome battle, we manage to repel the attackers and they try to make a run for it but we still managed to capture one of them. So... basically as far as the adventure plot goes we're still in the dark and we decide to question the guy we captured. We start with the basic question and during the interrogation we realize that he was one of the leaders of the ambush on us. I used up some of my spells to discern if he was telling us the truth and we found out that the villain's scheme is to wreak havoc all across the country by burning and massacring Cormyrean village folk, while secretly raising an army which he would use to strike at Arabel. After some interrogation, during which my char got seriously ****** off coz she was a very very loyal Cormyrean, we realized that we're stuck here until tomorrow and that even then it would be hard to move the treacherous criminal, i decide to be the Judge, Jury and the Executioner and i sentence the criminal to death for the crime of treason against Cormyr. My friend objected to this, but i told him this was a matter serving justice and that he as a Mystrran knew nothing about it. So i executed the guy. After that my DM informed me that i have knowingly committed an evil act and that we will discuss the appropriate punishment later on. My question to you is - was my decision and evil act?
The_Shaman 12-18-06, 05:56 AM	Well, some problems I see are whether a) you had proper authority to act as a JoP (but that's more of a lawful-chaotic thing, and I presume Purple Dragon officers) and that b) it's the villain, not the squad leader, who is the guilty party here. Technically, if the guy you captured is is Cormyrean, s/he is guilty of treason, but if not, well, you have a problem. Killing a captive someone to make it easier on yourself is an evil act, definitely, especially if they gave you essential information. If you want to discuss it with the DM, try to make a point that you made a lawful act (executing an enemy of the crown - you were on a mission for the Purple Dragons, I guess), not an evil one (killing a captive just because you were ****** off, or because it was easier to do than taking him to the capital).
BrennonGoldeye 12-18-06, 07:54 AM	Since the captive not only had knowledge of a truly evil plot(killing innocent commomfolk) and was also active in the plot(trying to kill you, an officer of the Purple Dragons) then IMO it would have been an evil act not to kill him. Your duty as a PD is to defend Cormyr from all threats, and if your DM calls a High Priest of the God of Justice evil for killing a mass murderer(or an accomplice to such) point out 1. You aren't a Heirophant of Eldath, 2. You would face treason charges yourself if you didn't remove the threat, and 3. You can always cut off a finger and ressurect the guy later after he has had a bit of poking from some yugoloths.:D
Diffan 12-18-06, 08:17 AM	OK, I copied this from Wikipedia on the dogma and edicts of Tyr, here it goes...... Favor "To keep Tyr's favor, one must respect fallen enemies, never make sacrifice of a corpse, and keep one's alignment lawful good. Tyr considers slaying agents of evil to be honorable and worthy of the highest praise." I think that sums it up right there!
MysticalNyte 12-18-06, 03:05 PM	Without being a "rules-lawyer", I would respect the decision of the DM.
Alac Luin 12-18-06, 05:08 PM	I would normally say that killing a captive just becouse it would "save time" instead of delivering them to the proper authorities would be an evil act. But your charicter is an officer in the Purple Dragons. This rank would make you the "proper authorities".
The_Shaman 12-18-06, 08:03 PM	I guess the major thing is whether the captive is a "pawn"- just a hired henchman or mercenary or an "agent" of evil - someone who has been actively involved in the plans and is an important figure of the hierarchy of the plotters.
darksyngr 12-18-06, 08:41 PM	I don't think it was an evil act as your character was acting out of the belief it was to protect the innocent people of your lands and punish evil. However, it was an unlawful act. I'm assuming here that you did not have the consent of your king to be judge and executioner? Perhaps you and your DM can come to a compromise that will allow your character to remain good but take a hit to your alignment. That can even lead to some interesting role playing for your character as you try to make ammends for your actions.
bitter thorn 12-19-06, 03:40 AM	I think you're OK with the crown of Cormyr, and I think you're most likely OK with the church. However, he should probably come clean with both of them to hold himself accountable.
wesleytj 12-19-06, 10:28 AM	wow, obviously the replies are all over the map. my feelings are that your actions were "covered" due to your rank and your given duty to protect the land of cormyr. this guy wasn't just a rank-and-file schmoe in the ambush, he was one of it's leaders and orchestrators. to me, that makes him a direct threat to the crown. however, under no circumstances should you describe your actions as an act of rage. saying you were honked off and then did it means that weren't acting within the bounds of the law so much as satisfying your own selfish agenda and personal desire for revenge. it is this attitude that is disturbing, more than the act itself. if you had dispensed even handed justice without emotional attachment, that would have been much better than what you yourself described as your state of mind at the time. now, the guy who stated that your act was unlawful because you were not officially appointed as judge and executioner would be right in modern law, but in a medieval setting the disctinctions were much less clear. acting as a purple knight of cormyr in such a situation is tantamount to being appointed as "the law" when no higher ranking authority is available, imo. again, however, it is the attitude you took that is troubling, and that likely is what the DM has a problem with. and at the end of the day, it is very much his call as to whether you've comitted an evil act. the last thing i'll mention is that you should be totally upfront and honest when reporting your actions to the authorities when the time comes. make your case for why you felt your actions right at the time, and let the chips fall where they may. great discussion!
MarkusTay63 12-19-06, 10:50 AM	OK, I copied this from Wikipedia on the dogma and edicts of Tyr, here it goes...... Favor "To keep Tyr's favor, one must respect fallen enemies, never make sacrifice of a corpse, and keep one's alignment lawful good. Tyr considers slaying agents of evil to be honorable and worthy of the highest praise." I think that sums it up right there! 1) He is NOT a priest of TYR, and 2) ALL good religions want their priest to slay evil, not Execute an unarmed prisoner. I personally feel you were right, but ONLY because you are a member of the military. You made a military decision, which has NOTHING to do with your being a priest. However.... Without being a "rules-lawyer", I would respect the decision of the DM. Unfortunately for you, this is always the bottom-line, and being an ancient DM I would have to agree with this more then any other comment made here. You didn't break the law, but you did commit an immoral act. Mystra is supposed to be a neutral God though, so I don't know why she would be angry unless the man had information concerning magical lore. She is not supposed to take sides of morality, and you can point to the fact that there have been EVIL Magisters to defend your case to the DM.
bitter thorn 12-19-06, 10:53 AM	He's not a priest of Tyr?:confused:
Uberhamster 12-19-06, 11:12 AM	My question to you is - was my decision and evil act? Why in the world would it matter if it was evil or not? You decide your characters alignment through her actions, as long as you can defend the actions (as you can) then there can be no problems with your alignment. What there can be problems with is state and/or church. But in this case neither seems to have any problem with your actions, and if they do it will at most result in a reprimand from either.
Khurgan 12-19-06, 11:32 AM	First: Brennongoldeye - please tell me you're not a cop - given your post you wouldn't be for long.;) Second: This sort of 'Drumhead court' of slaying a prisoner is and was frowned upon in our own history - you should, technically have waited BUT your situ seemed as if you were stuck in the snow... was there a risk he was an ongoing threat to the group or the Crown? Third: Is your character officially working for the crown? Have you evidence of the slain prisoner's guilt? Did you mean to kill him for punitive and instrumental reasons (to stop him from committing heinous acts in the future - to deter others from similar crimes?)? If you can answer YES to all questions in this the third category - you're in technically in the clear, if a little unorthodox. Evil is defined (in one way) as causing harm for non-instrumental purposes. Did you enjoy killing the NPC prisoner? Was that the primary reason for killing the NPC prisoner? Honestly? If you enjoyed, or derived satisfaction from the act over the need for justice and punishment - you been a bad girl! Any penalties should be obvious and relatively substantial, but not punitive in this case. Church and Crown might have expected you to deliver said prisoner and evidence to the Courts - they might not like you taking the law into your own hands... My recommended punishment? You can't gain new spells when you level up until you atone. DM gets to send you on some crappy mission testing all aspects of your alignment...
ShadezofDis 12-19-06, 04:33 PM	Well, just a quick little google search pulled up this gem (which you should definitely read and understand in order to properly play your char) http://www.mikewashburn.com/frcamp/crmyr/LAW.htm For the act of treason the punishment is Death (Instant), the leader of the ambush certainly knew the plans of his master and was a willing party of said plans, most definitely guilty of treason. However, since you are not a lord you are not exactly qualified to sentence the guy, nor to carry out the sentence. The sticking point for me would be, how hard would it be for you to move the guilty party? I mean, once stripped, bound, etc I can't imagine him being much of a threat to escape or to further threaten your character. If you had good cause to feel that the guy could have escaped then I would be more lenient towards your character but I just can't imagine how this guy would escape from two super powerful priests. Last thing, what was your characters mission? I mean, what were you doing out in the wilderness? Were you actively seeking out this plot because your commanding officer sent you on the mission?
Duagloth 12-19-06, 05:24 PM	If you where thinking of how he will do bad to others - good If you where ****** or angry - evil Its not always the "what" that decides if it is evil or good. The "why" is often more important.
Dunion 12-20-06, 04:51 AM	mkay... i've read all of your answers and i got a few things to add to further clarify my character and her position in this. She IS a priest of Tyr. She is a Purple Dragon officer with the rank of Lionar. And she is a Lord (Lady) of the realm - even more importantly the place where they caught the criminal was within the boundaries of her granted land. When we were ambushed we were investigating rumors of insurgence in some of the villages between Arabel and Tilverton and we were sent to do so by my superiors. Also - when i executed the prisoner i wasn't fed up and irritated by the situation we were in (not knowing the full story) but by the fact that we captured a Cormyrean-born traitor to the crown. Treason is something my char finds very appalling. As far as my Mystran priest companion goes - i rebuked him because he has done worse things than that. His opinion means alot though coz he is a Lord of the realm as well. As far as the villain's role is concerned - we knew he was leading the attack on us; we knew he was aware of the plans against the king and country; I offered him a chance to redeem himself by renouncing his master and by swearing fealty to the King one more time with me and my companion as a witnesses and he not only refused but stated he doesn't regret anything and that he would do such heinous acts in the future if he escaped. I then summarized his crimes like this: You are guilty of leading the attack on two Lords of the realm to which the penalty is death. And even worse you are guilty of treachery to your King and country which resulted in deaths of innocent civilians to which your penalty is also death. I then unsheathed my sword and gave him a military execution - funny thing is i botched a roll and i had to strike at him twice to kill him as the first swing was not fatal.
Ateth_Istarlin 12-20-06, 05:24 AM	mkay... i've read all of your answers and i got a few things to add to further clarify my character and her position in this. She IS a priest of Tyr. She is a Purple Dragon officer with the rank of Lionar. And she is a Lord (Lady) of the realm - even more importantly the place where they caught the criminal was within the boundaries of her granted land. When we were ambushed we were investigating rumors of insurgence in some of the villages between Arabel and Tilverton and we were sent to do so by my superiors. Also - when i executed the prisoner i wasn't fed up and irritated by the situation we were in (not knowing the full story) but by the fact that we captured a Cormyrean-born traitor to the crown. Treason is something my char finds very appalling. As far as my Mystran priest companion goes - i rebuked him because he has done worse things than that. His opinion means alot though coz he is a Lord of the realm as well. As far as the villain's role is concerned - we knew he was leading the attack on us; we knew he was aware of the plans against the king and country; I offered him a chance to redeem himself by renouncing his master and by swearing fealty to the King one more time with me and my companion as a witnesses and he not only refused but stated he doesn't regret anything and that he would do such heinous acts in the future if he escaped. I then summarized his crimes like this: You are guilty of leading the attack on two Lords of the realm to which the penalty is death. And even worse you are guilty of treachery to your King and country which resulted in deaths of innocent civilians to which your penalty is also death. I then unsheathed my sword and gave him a military execution - funny thing is i botched a roll and i had to strike at him twice to kill him as the first swing was not fatal. Without a doubt - you were NOT comitting an evil act, you were performing your duty as defined by both church & state.:)
The_Shaman 12-20-06, 10:42 AM	OK then, I'd say you're clear. If he's a traitor to the Crown, and you are allowed to mete out justice on the spot, you are within your rights. I guess that an execution is the proper punishment for high treason in Cormyr just as practically anywhere else. It's not a good act (acting against the crown need not be evil), but a lawful one. It can be a bit of a problem if you are expected, by law, to provide a proper trial, but even then it should not be a big problem in terms of good vs evil.
Diffan 12-20-06, 03:24 PM	Tyr DEFINITLY smiles upon you! ...er except try not to botch it next time ;)
MarkusTay63 12-21-06, 03:35 AM	Sorry, my bad. :( I thought I read that you were both priests of Mystra. A follower of Mystra is supposed to be Neutral on points of morality, so your party member had no right to object. But I also said you made a military decision, so I was right anyway. :P As the Terrasque said to the ancient dragon after eating an entire village - "I hope everything comes out all right." ;)
ShadezofDis 12-22-06, 12:58 PM	mkay... i've read all of your answers and i got a few things to add to further clarify my character and her position in this. She IS a priest of Tyr. She is a Purple Dragon officer with the rank of Lionar. And she is a Lord (Lady) of the realm - even more importantly the place where they caught the criminal was within the boundaries of her granted land. Then you didn't take it upon yourself to be judge and jury, BY LAW you ARE judge and jury. The end. Have a wonderful day :)
Ramenth 12-22-06, 02:51 PM	It strikes me as a very... Tyrrean thing to do, and it's also within your legal power to do.
BrennonGoldeye 12-22-06, 02:51 PM	Aye, you were a true servant of the crown. Well met Lady, remind me to keep my chaoticness(or possibly chaoticity?) outa Cormyr...:bow:
ShadezofDis 12-22-06, 03:25 PM	It strikes me as a very... Tyrrean thing to do, and it's also within your legal power to do. Yes, following the laws of the land is a very Tyrrean thing to do.
Dunion 12-22-06, 07:14 PM	hehe... thanx for all of your replies mates ;)
Puritan13 12-22-06, 08:49 PM	Sorry, my bad. :( I thought I read that you were both priests of Mystra. A follower of Mystra is supposed to be Neutral on points of morality, so your party member had no right to object. But I also said you made a military decision, so I was right anyway. :P As the Terrasque said to the ancient dragon after eating an entire village - "I hope everything comes out all right." ;)Mystra is Neutral Good. Unless somethings changed that I am unaware of. The old Mystra was Neutral and so was Mystryl. And probably the Mystryl before her and so on and so forth ad infinitum.
The_Shaman 12-22-06, 09:05 PM	I think the old Mystra was Lawful Neutral, actually. The new incarnation has allowed all priests of the old denomination to continue... Technically Mystra can have CG and LE clerics. Fancy that :)
BlueDove 12-22-06, 11:01 PM	again, however, it is the attitude you took that is troubling, and that likely is what the DM has a problem with. and at the end of the day, it is very much his call as to whether you've comitted an evil act. the last thing i'll mention is that you should be totally upfront and honest when reporting your actions to the authorities when the time comes. make your case for why you felt your actions right at the time, and let the chips fall where they may. I agree. It's not really the act that makes one evil, it's the motivation. An evil character may perform a seemingly heroic, good act, such as saving your typical damsel in distress. A good character would act out of instinct, sense of obligation, honor, etc. The evil character acts with thoughts of potential reward, gain of prestige/respect, to keep up appearances, etc. If your DM feels you acted out of rage/vengence/convenience and without regard to your companion's feelings, you may have a difficult time making a case for yourself. Also, it is generally bad form to "execute" a prisoner you have interrogated, as the threat of death is what you employ to get your information. If the information is given up, then the prisoner is typically seen to have bought at least the privilage to live long enough to see a formal sentence delivered by the justice system of the land. If you threatened death unless he talked, and then killed him anyway, you have at least "lied" and may have put your lawful alignment in peril. I'd advise you to be respectful to your DM when you make your case. The DM will have to judge your motives based on your and your character's attitude at the time of the act. If it were me, I'd acknowledge that I may have acted rashly due to my strong feelings on the subject, however, the risk of the prisoner escaping to do more evil during a long trek to the capitol outweighed any wrong done by his speedy execution. I would offer to pray on the matter, and possibly to seek the council of others of my order to determine if Tyr has been slighted by my actions and if so, to perform some sort of voluntary pennance. Hope it works out!
Puritan13 12-22-06, 11:53 PM	I think the old Mystra was Lawful Neutral, actually. The new incarnation has allowed all priests of the old denomination to continue... Technically Mystra can have CG and LE clerics. Fancy that :)I read somewhere that existing clerics who were LE were still members of the clergy, but she wasn't allowing any more LE clerics. She's on a bit of a high horse if you ask me. I think Cyric needs to teach her another lesson. Kelemvor took his lesson to heart, she seems a bit more thick headed.
ShadezofDis 12-23-06, 11:52 AM	I agree. It's not really the act that makes one evil, it's the motivation. An evil character may perform a seemingly heroic, good act, such as saving your typical damsel in distress. A good character would act out of instinct, sense of obligation, honor, etc. The evil character acts with thoughts of potential reward, gain of prestige/respect, to keep up appearances, etc. If your DM feels you acted out of rage/vengence/convenience and without regard to your companion's feelings, you may have a difficult time making a case for yourself. Also, it is generally bad form to "execute" a prisoner you have interrogated, as the threat of death is what you employ to get your information. If the information is given up, then the prisoner is typically seen to have bought at least the privilage to live long enough to see a formal sentence delivered by the justice system of the land. If you threatened death unless he talked, and then killed him anyway, you have at least "lied" and may have put your lawful alignment in peril. I'd advise you to be respectful to your DM when you make your case. The DM will have to judge your motives based on your and your character's attitude at the time of the act. If it were me, I'd acknowledge that I may have acted rashly due to my strong feelings on the subject, however, the risk of the prisoner escaping to do more evil during a long trek to the capitol outweighed any wrong done by his speedy execution. I would offer to pray on the matter, and possibly to seek the council of others of my order to determine if Tyr has been slighted by my actions and if so, to perform some sort of voluntary pennance. Hope it works out! While this is all well and good there are some simple facts here; As a Lord of the land, specifically the land where the ambush took place, the character IS IN FACT the judge and jury of the case. The penalty for the crimes of Treason against the crown and for assault upon a Lord is instant death. So, regardless of the character's feelings in this situation it is BOTH lawful and good to execute the prisoner.
BlueDove 12-23-06, 07:34 PM	While this is all well and good there are some simple facts here; As a Lord of the land, specifically the land where the ambush took place, the character IS IN FACT the judge and jury of the case. The penalty for the crimes of Treason against the crown and for assault upon a Lord is instant death. So, regardless of the character's feelings in this situation it is BOTH lawful and good to execute the prisoner. ...and yet, the DM found fault with the characater's actions. So obviously there was some question as to whether she was within her rights or not. Either that, or something led the DM to question her motives for acting as she did. Ultimately, there is one simple fact: DM word is Law. The best way to appeal the DM's judgement is with finnesse and tact. Telling a DM that they are wrong is not the way to serve one's character. And for the record, I disagree. It's always the character's motives in any action that determines their true alignment. How others will judge the action has nothing to do with it.
ShadezofDis 12-24-06, 12:31 PM	...and yet, the DM found fault with the characater's actions. So obviously there was some question as to whether she was within her rights or not. Either that, or something led the DM to question her motives for acting as she did. Ultimately, there is one simple fact: DM word is Law. The best way to appeal the DM's judgement is with finnesse and tact. Telling a DM that they are wrong is not the way to serve one's character. And for the record, I disagree. It's always the character's motives in any action that determines their true alignment. How others will judge the action has nothing to do with it. Unless the DM has changed Cormyrean law from canon (which is a-ok, perfectly fine even, it'd just be cool if the DM mentioned the changes to the laws, especially seeing as he's running a game for a Lord (lady in this case)) So, as long as the laws of Cormyr are the canon laws then the character acted in both a lawful, and a good manner. She both followed the law and she worked towards the greater good. My guess is that the DM doesn't actually know Cormyrean law, I could be wrong and the DM might be looking at this exactly as you are (ie. The character was angery, which means the character is evil. . . I guess) I'm guessing the DM wanted the character to bring the npc to town for trial. . . the thing about this situation though is that there was more than enough people right there to have the trial (questioning, witnessed by another person and re-enforced by truth type spells) and the character that "acted" as judge jury and executioner would have, in fact, been judge jury and executioner if they dragged the npc back to town. We could definitely agree to disagree, but since the character followed the law exactly then I can't really see how one could define that as an evil act. (point in fact, the npc violated two different laws who's penalties are instant death)
MarkusTay63 12-25-06, 01:26 AM	Mystra is Neutral Good. Unless somethings changed that I am unaware of. The old Mystra was Neutral and so was Mystryl. And probably the Mystryl before her and so on and so forth ad infinitum.Hence my phrasing supposed to be neutral. Mystra is the god of magic, and magic is by its nature neither good or evil; it is the intent it is used for that make it so. Many Magister's have been evil, so she isn't supposed to take sides. That being said, this is why my campaign takes place twenty years in the future, after Ao slaps Mystra back to Midnight (now a demi-god of magical devices). He restores Mystryl back to her proper place, along with Myrkul and Mask, making the other two upstarts Demi-gods as well. And now all is right in the realms.... and Tyr kills evil-doers! :P
The_Shaman 12-29-06, 07:58 AM	Er, what is restored about Myrkul or Mask? Call me a spoilsport, but between Jergal (one of my hidden favourites) and Kelemvor, there isn't something left for Myrkul to take over - and for mask, he doesn't seem to have any serious problems except for Kezef.
draco1119 12-29-06, 10:15 AM	Er, what is restored about Myrkul or Mask? Call me a spoilsport, but between Jergal (one of my hidden favourites) and Kelemvor, there isn't something left for Myrkul to take over - and for mask, he doesn't seem to have any serious problems except for Kezef. He's saying that Byrkul and Mask take up their old portfolios, and Kelemvor and Cyric are *****-slapped (almost) back to mortality.