Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aris Despana The Drow 12-11-03, 01:54 PM	I think she is a mad crazy ****** im happy to be gone!:D :D what do you think?
Bifford 12-11-03, 04:20 PM	She has parent issues.
lnwlf86 12-12-03, 01:31 AM	can we say lack of intelligence AND in need of a padded room.:D
Bifford 12-12-03, 05:13 AM	But she must be doing something right in order to have a near-monopoly on her people's faith.
mallmus 12-12-03, 06:02 AM	I haven't read this new RAS novel, but from what I can gather, Drizzit manages to kill her, thus making her fall silent... :rolleyes: I'm not too keen on the idea my self, I don't think any mortal could really just go and kill a god, no matter how powerful, and you would really have to be something powerful, but I’m not al up on my Drizzit facts, so maybe he has the power to do something like that? :confused: As one of my good friend has put it. (http://www.candlekeep.co.uk/msgboard/viewtopic.php?p=837#837) (Although the link goes to a different Message Board.) I haven’t read many of the FR novels featuring gods, or the lives of gods before they ascended, is this a common thing across the board, that a mortal hero kills the evil god to take there place? ---------- This is somewhat besides the point of 'Is Lolth Mad?' but... How come the Drow have a good aligned god, but the Orcs don't, or any of the others races? If one monster race such as the Drow have good goods, shouldn’t that mean all of the monster races have good gods, and the same for the good races, shouldn’t the elves have an evil god, etc?
Wooly Rupert 12-12-03, 10:14 AM	Originally posted by mallmus I haven't read this new RAS novel, but from what I can gather, Drizzit manages to kill her, thus making her fall silent... :rolleyes: Oh gods, I hope that info is incorrect... Salvatore once said he didn't want to jump the shark with Drizzt, but having his boy kill Lolth couldn't be anything *but* jumping the shark!
Thomas M. Reid 12-12-03, 10:31 AM	Originally posted by mallmus I haven't read this new RAS novel, but from what I can gather, Drizzit manages to kill her, thus making her fall silent... :rolleyes: I'm not too keen on the idea my self, I don't think any mortal could really just go and kill a god, no matter how powerful, and you would really have to be something powerful, but I’m not al up on my Drizzit facts, so maybe he has the power to do something like that? :confused: I haven’t read many of the FR novels featuring gods, or the lives of gods before they ascended, is this a common thing across the board, that a mortal hero kills the evil god to take there place? mallmus, At first I thought your comments were tongue-in-cheek (a commentary on how powerful Drizz't seems to be), but if you are being serious, as your message sounds, let me put your mind at ease: Drizz't does not kill Lolth in any book I'm aware of. In the Greyhawk setting (a completely separate IP), a group of adventurers manage to kill her in a novel entitled Queen of the Demonweb Pits, but that doesn't have any bearing on what goes on in FR. The War of the Spider Queen novel series is a six-book story of Lolth inexplicably going silent and not answering her followers' prayers, but Drizz't never appears anywhere in them. Half the books are out already, and the fourth is due in January. Hope that helps clear things up a bit. Thomas
RecklessFable 12-12-03, 03:37 PM	This conversation is very close to spoiler material, gahk. As far as killing a God goes, the avatar series established that only a divine power can kill a divine power. And I know the 2E rules stated only Demi-Powers could be slain by mortals. Lesser Powers and up could not be slain by non-gods.
Thomas M. Reid 12-12-03, 05:42 PM	Originally posted by RecklessFable This conversation is very close to spoiler material, gahk.Not sure if you're referring to what I posted, but I was very careful not to reveal anything about WotSQ that doesn't already appear on the cover copy of the books. As far as the Greyhawk novel is concerned, that was the plot of the original adventure it was based upon, so I don't think it's a big secret, either. But if I did reveal something you didn't know about, I apologize. Thomas
Dargoth 12-12-03, 05:48 PM	I wonder if that means Lolth is now an FR only god now? Shes dead in Greyhawk and apparently the AO of the Dragonlance setting killed or drove out all the gods of that setting.....
Wooly Rupert 12-12-03, 05:58 PM	Originally posted by Dargoth I wonder if that means Lolth is now an FR only god now? Shes dead in Greyhawk and apparently the AO of the Dragonlance setting killed or drove out all the gods of that setting..... Lolth was never in Dragonlance -- Krynn doesn't have drow. Krynn is an oddity as far as the gods are concerned: there's only one pantheon, not multiple or racial ones. And the gods have returned to Krynn, again.
Kuje31 12-12-03, 06:29 PM	Originally posted by Dargoth I wonder if that means Lolth is now an FR only god now? Shes dead in Greyhawk and apparently the AO of the Dragonlance setting killed or drove out all the gods of that setting..... She still exists in Greyhawk also since WOTC still lists her in the core material and so does the Living City material and other 3e greyhawk material.
Morka 12-12-03, 07:29 PM	Originally posted by RecklessFable This conversation is very close to spoiler material, gahk. As far as killing a God goes, the avatar series established that only a divine power can kill a divine power. And I know the 2E rules stated only Demi-Powers could be slain by mortals. Lesser Powers and up could not be slain by non-gods. Let's put away the avatar series, 'cause all the gods were forced to exist only in avatar form, so anyone was able to kill them. There is still Finder Wyvernspur who killed Moander and raised to godhood. There is also Azuth who defeated Savras, but he didn't kill him.
mallmus 12-13-03, 05:54 AM	Originally posted by Thomas M. Reid The War of the Spider Queen novel series is a six-book story of Lolth inexplicably going silent and not answering her followers' prayers, but Drizz't never appears anywhere in them. Half the books are out already, and the fourth is due in JanuaryThanks Thomas, that was a great help in working it out, another question, if this series is six books, and the fourth is about to be released, this would mean the conclusion about why Lolth has fallen silent has not been reveled. Are these novels connected to the City of the Spider Queen adventure? Originally posted by RecklessFable This conversation is very close to spoiler material, gahk.I'm not intending to get this series of novels any time soon, and without spoiling too much, is WotC prepared to make a greater god, such as Lolth fall silent, and dead? If lets say in the final book she is killed, would this be cannon? Thus affecting all Realms users’ games...
Mirtek 12-13-03, 06:22 AM	Originally posted by Morka Let's put away the avatar series, 'cause all the gods were forced to exist only in avatar form, so anyone was able to kill them. Even during the ToT no god was truly killed by a mortal. Cyric killed Bhaal with Godsbane, which was nothing elese than the god Mask. Midnight killed Myrkul, but at the time she was already infuse with much of Mystras divine essence. Originally posted by Morka There is still Finder Wyvernspur who killed Moander and raised to godhood. There is also Azuth who defeated Savras, but he didn't kill him. Finder Wyvernspur had divine help. His patron goddess Tymora helped him without his knowledge. It's said in both Faiths&Avatars and the Faiths&Pantheons Web Enhancement. And you said it yourself: Azuth did not kill Savras and Azuth was Mystra's favorite. It's not sure if she did not secretly help him a little. Originally posted by mallmus is WotC prepared to make a greater god, such as Lolth fall silent, and dead? If lets say in the final book she is killed, would this be cannon? Thus affecting all Realms users’ games... The events of the War of the Spider Queen serues are cannon, the next supplement, Players Guide to the FR, will update the FR timeline and bring the events of the books so far released into the realms timeline. If Lloth would die at the end, it would become cannon. But it's certainly the most unlikely event that could happen, WotC would never kill Lloth, she sells to much to kill her off
Thomas M. Reid 12-13-03, 01:27 PM	Originally posted by mallmus Thanks Thomas, that was a great help in working it out, another question, if this series is six books, and the fourth is about to be released, this would mean the conclusion about why Lolth has fallen silent has not been reveled. Are these novels connected to the City of the Spider Queen adventure? Somewhat. The original intent was to make a tight connection by having the adventure set in Ched Nasad, but because of the release schedule (the adventure was going to come out before my novel), the powers that be decided to change the setting so as not to spoil anything in the novel. I'm not intending to get this series of novels any time soon, and without spoiling too much, is WotC prepared to make a greater god, such as Lolth fall silent, and dead? If lets say in the final book she is killed, would this be cannon? Thus affecting all Realms users’ games... Yes, that would be the general way WotC would handle things. If Lolth happened to die at the end of this series, then she would be considered dead for the game setting, too, and all future published material would reflect that. But that is only a hypothetical situation! I am not commenting on the actual details of the series. Thomas
CzarGarrett 12-13-03, 01:41 PM	Originally posted by Mirtek And you said it yourself: Azuth did not kill Savras and Azuth was Mystra's favorite. It's not sure if she did not secretly help him a little. I could be wrong, but I thought when Azuth and Savras fought they were both mortals at the time, or at best Savras was a Demi-God. And something about them both aiming to be Mystra's Chosen.
mallmus 12-13-03, 01:48 PM	Originally posted by Thomas M. Reid Yes, that would be the general way WotC would handle things. If Lolth happened to die at the end of this series, then she would be considered dead for the game setting, too, and all future published material would reflect that. But that is only a hypothetical situation! I am not commenting on the actual details of the series.I'm not really sure if I’m prepared to have all of my Lolth worshiping Drow not being able to cast spells, i might not use that in my games. If that does all happen, maybe Lolth or some of her remaining worshipers revenge her death, and some how returns to Toril, much like Bane in the ToT. How does everyone else feel about the possibility of having Lolth silent in future products? (Thanks again for the reply Thomas!)
Kuje31 12-13-03, 01:52 PM	Originally posted by mallmus I'm not really sure if I’m prepared to have all of my Lolth worshiping Drow not being able to cast spells, i might not use that in my games. If that does all happen, maybe Lolth or some of her remaining worshipers revenge her death, and some how returns to Toril, much like Bane in the ToT. How does everyone else feel about the possibility of having Lolth silent in future products? (Thanks again for the reply Thomas!) Doesn't matter to me, my games don't reflect canon (even though usually I debate from the stand of WOTC's canon) :). Since that series is going to take another two years to finish I didn't add it into my version of FR, much like a lot of 3e's RSE's and even 2e's. But then I don't add in a lot of Realm Shaking Events into my game because they screw up the history of my FR since I've been DM'in in FR for about 6+ years now.
Sirius_Black 12-13-03, 09:36 PM	Originally posted by mallmus How does everyone else feel about the possibility of having Lolth silent in future products? Already there dear mallmus. My FR world only vaguely resembles the official world and one big difference is no mama Lolth. How would I feel if she disappeared entirely from the official world? Utterly stunned...the day that is allowed to happen is the day you'll see Drizzt dancing in a pink tutu with Elminster to the music of Britney Spears. "Oops, I did it again...." I can't wait to see someone misquote Mr. Reid on this board or another in a few weeks.. Did you hear Thomas Reid over at the WOTC board said that Lolth is going to die at the end of the WOTSQ novels. Of course, I'll straighten such a thread out if I see it. I'll simply tell them, "No, Thomas Reid did not say she's gong to die, he said she'll simply wake up in a shower telling the drow, 'it was all a dream.' Any Dallas fans from that 80s soap opera should get the reference.
Aluroon 12-13-03, 09:40 PM	I regret that i have to be slightly flaming here but do you mean Lloth? If you cant spell her name right what right to do you have to call her stupid...Granted she is fictional. I have read almost all of R.A. Salvadors books and to my knowlage...that is unless i missed a huge section of a book he never even sees Lloth...much less kills her. Hope that annoys the poster and helps some of your worrys about Drizzit killing gods...if any of you saw the Gods handbook or whatever its called i think it says that some gods can be slain but most that is every god above minor level can only be banish from the worked by having there avitar slain or cannot be hurt at all. to add a bit more to this, I while in a store looked at Lloth in the god handbook and unless i am insain saw even her avitar has like 800 hitpoints or beter.. a massive ac and incredible power that could..ki- anniliate Drizzit with hardly a thought... thats my 75 cents...(stupid inflation
DwarvenBrew 12-13-03, 10:19 PM	Originally posted by Dargoth I wonder if that means Lolth is now an FR only god now? Shes dead in Greyhawk and apparently the AO of the Dragonlance setting killed or drove out all the gods of that setting..... I've always been under the impression that there are many hundreds, if not thousand of worlds similar to Toril, Krynn, etc... After all, most elves aren't even from a gene pool native to Toril. In fact, many of the races are "imports" from other worlds. So my opinion is that no, Lloth is not simply a FR goddess now, however Faerun seems to be among her favorite playgrounds. I would suggest reading the novel Evermeet sometime, as it puts such issues into perspective, and is a fantastic novel in its own right.
Sirius_Black 12-13-03, 10:25 PM	Originally posted by Aluroon I regret that i have to be slightly flaming here but do you mean Lloth? If you cant spell her name right what right to do you have to call her stupid...Granted she is fictional. I have read almost all of R.A. Salvadors books and to my knowlage... Aluroon.....if you are going to call someone else on spelling, you have to make sure your own post doesn't have any mistakes. Didn't Salvadors teach you that bit of knowlage? ;)
DwarvenBrew 12-13-03, 10:27 PM	One thing to keep in mind is that Lloth dominated her corner of the Abyss fairly easily following her banishment by Corellon. Ultimately, she found her Abyssal servants to boring and her new position in "life" unrewarding. One of her original motivations for becoming active on Toril with mortal elves was that they are more interesting and intriguing than her Abyssal underlings. Although she needs followers for power, mortal elves are also important for their entertainment value. I think that in large part, that is reflected by the fickle and chaotic aspect of her divinity. Mortals are their for her pleasure. This attitude is part of what you're calling her "madness".
Kuje31 12-13-03, 10:50 PM	Originally posted by DwarvenBrew I've always been under the impression that there are many hundreds, if not thousand of worlds similar to Toril, Krynn, etc... After all, most elves aren't even from a gene pool native to Toril. In fact, many of the races are "imports" from other worlds. So my opinion is that no, Lloth is not simply a FR goddess now, however Faerun seems to be among her favorite playgrounds. I would suggest reading the novel Evermeet sometime, as it puts such issues into perspective, and is a fantastic novel in its own right. Evermeet was written in 2e. Lloth does not live in the Abyss any more, she lives in the Demonweb Pits. The Abyss and the Demonweb Pits are two different planes now, since FR has it's own cosmology. So no the Lloth in Greyhawk is NOT the same Lloth in FR now. If you look at thier stat's there are some small changes between them and Lloth in Greyhawk does not have children from Corellon that she has in FR.
Thrudjelmer 12-14-03, 10:59 AM	Originally posted by mallmus This is somewhat besides the point of 'Is Lolth Mad?' but... How come the Drow have a good aligned god, but the Orcs don't, or any of the others races? If one monster race such as the Drow have good goods, shouldn’t that mean all of the monster races have good gods, and the same for the good races, shouldn’t the elves have an evil god, etc? It doesn't work like that. The dark elves have a good diety among them because the dark elves were once good elves that lived on the surface. Lolth and Corellon Larathien had a falling out and Corellon banished both the Lolth and her followers to the subterranean lifestyle they have now. Eilistraee was not banished by Corellon, she chose her lot in life to give the drow who did not want to be evil for the sake of beinbg evil hope of returning to the surface and being more than Lolth's slaves. Originally posted by Aluroon I regret that i have to be slightly flaming here but do you mean Lloth? If you cant spell her name right what right to do you have to call her stupid...Granted she is fictional. I have read almost all of R.A. Salvadors books and to my knowlage...that is unless i missed a huge section of a book he never even sees Lloth...much less kills her. Lolth and Lloth are both correct spellings of the Spider Queen's name. One was more commonly used with Greyhawk and the other within the Forgotten Realms. People who prefer the old-school spelling are not wrong, they just have a preference. Don't be a jerk about it or you're going to have people point out every little mistake you make... :smirk: oh, its started already... too late.
mallmus 12-14-03, 11:07 AM	Originally posted by Aluroon I regret that I have to be slightly flaming here but do you mean Lloth? If you cant spell her name right what right to do you have to call her stupid...Granted she is fictional. I have read almost all of R.A. Salvadors books and to my knowlage...that is unless i missed a huge section of a book he never even sees Lloth...much less kills her.On Page 2 of the Faiths and Pantheons her name is spelt Lolth.Originally posted by Mirtek The events of the War of the Spider Queen series are cannon, the next supplement, Players Guide to the FR, will update the FR timeline and bring the events of the books so far released into the realms timeline. If Lloth would die at the end, it would become cannon.I am interested to see how they would go about this, if Lolth does end up as a dead god, or something along those lines, who or whatever kills her would most probably ascend and take her portfolios. I've picked up from what you have all been saying here that Drizzit does not kill or have anything to do with Lolth's silence. Lets just say he did for a second, and he ascended and became another good drow god. Would he have to take parts or all of her portfolio? This would mean Clerics of Drizzit Do'Urden would be around, how do you feel about that? And the church of Drizzet would arise The Players Guide to Faerûn would have his avatar and domains... I'm not saying that this novel series is going that way, sounds like its totally not, but what if he did somehow.Originally posted by Thrudjelmer It doesn't work like that. The dark elves have a good diety among them because the dark elves were once good elves that lived on the surface. Lolth and Corellon Larathien had a falling out and Corellon banished both the Lolth and her followers to the subterranean lifestyle they have now. Eilistraee was not banished by Corellon, she chose her lot in life to give the drow who did not want to be evil for the sake of beinbg evil hope of returning to the surface and being more than Lolth's slaves.I see your point about the drow, so because the orcs, illithids, trolls, and evil dragons, etc where not once good-aligned they don't get a good god. But what if a good-aligned orc came to the point where he could ascend, wouldn’t there then become a good-aligned orc god? There must be some small percentage of the evil monsters that have good alignments, shouldn’t they have a god?Originally posted by Aluroon Hope that annoys the posterWas that to me?
Thrudjelmer 12-14-03, 11:42 AM	If Lolth does die, I'd be willing to wager that Shar steps in and assumes her portfolio, thus taking control of the dark elves. She'll probably pretend to be Lolth for awhile, then slowly let it leak to some of the high clergy at first so that they can prepare others for an official change in authority without mass hysteria or loss of worshippers.
Thomas M. Reid 12-14-03, 12:23 PM	Originally posted by Sirius_Black Of course, I'll straighten such a thread out if I see it. I'll simply tell them, "No, Thomas Reid did not say she's gong to die, he said she'll simply wake up in a shower telling the drow, 'it was all a dream.' Any Dallas fans from that 80s soap opera should get the reference. Sirius, You're definitely dating yourself with that reference (and yes, I do get it--I'm that old, too). ;) Thomas
Mirtek 12-14-03, 12:32 PM	Originally posted by Thrudjelmer Lolth and Lloth are both correct spellings of the Spider Queen's name. One was more commonly used with Greyhawk and the other within the Forgotten Realms. Originally posted by mallmus On Page 2 of the Faiths and Pantheons her name is spelt Lolth.I The correct spelling of her name is Lolth, whether with Greyhawk or within the Forgotten Realms. Lloth is nothing more than a local dialect, used in two minor drow cities within the Forgotten Realms, the rest of the Realms calls her Lolth.
Wooly Rupert 12-14-03, 01:54 PM	Originally posted by mallmus I've picked up from what you have all been saying here that Drizzit does not kill or have anything to do with Lolth's silence. Lets just say he did for a second, and he ascended and became another good drow god. Would he have to take parts or all of her portfolio? This would mean Clerics of Drizzit Do'Urden would be around, how do you feel about that? And the church of Drizzet would arise The Players Guide to Faerûn would have his avatar and domains... If that happened, a lot of people would be upset. I like Drizzt, but I am also among those that are tired of him and ready for a new character. Him becoming a god would be the ultimate act of jumping the shark, and that's something that RAS said long ago that he didn't want to have happen. Originally posted by mallmus But what if a good-aligned orc came to the point where he could ascend, wouldn’t there then become a good-aligned orc god? There must be some small percentage of the evil monsters that have good alignments, shouldn’t they have a god?Was that to me? I won't rule it out, but I think it unlikely that a good-aligned orc could manage to ascend to godhood. That's a tough road for a mortal to walk, even when they are a member of the dominant society and have deific help. I don't think that other evil races have good deities simply because there's not enough worshippers to empower a good deity. A good aligned orc deity, for example, wouldn't be very powerful, and would have to have some powerful allies to keep the rest of the orc pantheon from wiping him/her out. Even with those allies, how many worshippers would they have? Even the drow, who do have a good aligned deity in their pantheon, do their best to remove such elements from their society. Two of the most two notable good drow in the Realms, Liriel and Drizzt, both had to go thru a lot just to survive in their parent society. In orcish society, there's not even a pretense of rules and laws. Any orc who tried to be good would probably be killed by their own tribemates long before they had a chance to look for a good orc deity. So, for the other evil races, there's simply not that many worshippers out there to grab -- and thus, little power for any good racial deities in an evil race. Truly, had the drow not been a fallen race, I don't think that Eilistraee would be around, for much the same reasons that I just mentioned.
Aluroon 12-14-03, 05:05 PM	the orignal poster spelled it Loth...thats what i was calling...and i think my spelling is from Salvadors novels...although im not sure because i dont have them with me. if you calling the city of spiders a minor city then please rethink your idea of minor...its the crown jewel city...i unless i am wrong the surface world, and all others call Lloth or Lolth-Lolth while drow call her by Lloth...not that it matters...well thats all my 75 cents (stupid inflation)
Aluroon 12-14-03, 05:19 PM	Didn't Salvadors teach you that bit of knowlage? ;) [/B][/QUOTE] Sirius_Black, please Mr. Harry Potter person refrain from atempting to correct your suppeariors next time Oh your smart trying to play of Salvadors....did it ever occur to you i was in the right because i was refuring to his multiple books....it really does not mater because your just an donkey (substited for another name of the animal) flamer that is trying to get attention. Please refer to your english teacher next time you try to pick apart someones grammer in regard to plurals....no biggie though...sorry to snap..i know fifth graders tend to be well thats another few cents from me
Srinshee 12-14-03, 05:48 PM	Originally posted by mallmus This would mean Clerics of Drizzit Do'Urden would be around, how do you feel about that? And the church of Drizzet would arise The priests are called "board munchkins," the church is generally referred to as "www.wizards.com/dnd":smirk: :behold:
Srinshee 12-14-03, 05:53 PM	Originally posted by Aluroon Didn't Salvadors teach you that bit of knowlage? ;) Sirius_Black, please Mr. Harry Potter person refrain from atempting to correct your suppeariors next time Oh your smart trying to play of Salvadors....did it ever occur to you i was in the right because i was refuring to his multiple books....it really does not mater because your just an donkey (substited for another name of the animal) flamer that is trying to get attention. Please refer to your english teacher next time you try to pick apart someones grammer in regard to plurals....no biggie though...sorry to snap..i know fifth graders tend to be well thats another few cents from me [/B][/QUOTE] He meant to point out, I think, that the author's last name is Salvatore, the noun is spelled knowledge, and, for what its worth, suppeariors is spelled "superiors", refuring (as opposed to referring) is something you do to a cat that accidentally played around with your beard trimmer, and "grammer" should be grammar. My two cents.
Sirius_Black 12-14-03, 10:30 PM	Thanks Srinshee. Glad someone got the author's name correct since, a "fan" of the book apparently doesn't care enough to know the correct spelling. :rolleyes:
WizO_BigSister 12-14-03, 11:21 PM	Closing this thread as it has deteriorated into personal insults and trollish posts, which is a shame as there have also been some interesting and well thought out posts.