Is this illegal? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Is this illegal? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Talrinys
10-23-04, 02:53 AM I am currently writing a novel about a drow wizard from menzoberranzan.
It has a few references to gromph, and a few other thins from the FR books.
Now i would like to know if writing it is illegal, because i am breaking a copyright? i don't see how it could harm them in anyway, but i don't want to break any laws.
Charles Phipps
10-23-04, 03:05 AM If its fanfic, no one really will mind if its published for free. Especially with a disclaimer.

If its sold for money then yes and people will object.
Talrinys
10-23-04, 03:23 AM That is great :-) thanks a lot, i only want to publish if for free, and make a website about it, but i have no idea at all about any legal stuff.
What is a disclaimer anyways :-P?
Sorry for the stupid questions, but i'm only 13
Mirtek
10-23-04, 03:33 AM Well, first of all you have to be aware of the following:

It doesn't matter at all whether you publish it for free or for profit, as far as the legal status is concerned.

Even if you publish it for free, the copyright violation is exacty the same as for realising it for profit.

And it's not the reference to Gromph, the whole story about a drow wizard in Menzo is breaking WotC's copyright.

That are the bad news.

The good news are that most companies won't act against things like this, as long as it's done for free and not for profit.

You just have to be aware that this is not because of some "As long as it's for free it's not illegal" thing, but just because the companies are friendly enough to allow such things, while they have all legal rights to act against you. They only chose to not use their rights, but they could if they wanted to.
Talrinys
10-23-04, 03:42 AM Ok, so what if i didn't talk about Meno at all, i guess WOTC still owns the right to any type of drow/underdark story?
Mirtek
10-23-04, 04:19 AM Well, it all would depend on how much copyright WotC has about the drow.

Menzo/Gromph are theirs, but what about the drow race in general.

I would think they have them as well, but other D20 companies have released supplements about Drow.

Thus you should be able to write about Drow, as long as you do not use names/places from FR
Charles Phipps
10-23-04, 04:26 AM Open Game License leases all stuff out for supplements. I don't think the same applies to game fiction though.
Talrinys
10-23-04, 04:38 AM Ya i have been having trouble finding the copyright for drow.
Considering most LARP campaigns have some variation of drow, that people pay to play, i guess WOTC doesn't own the copyright.
And ya i know about OGC, but that is mostly for rules, not fiction.
maynardjkeenan
10-23-04, 08:40 AM I'm pretty certain they don't have copyright over the race Drow. Does Tolkien have copyright on Elves? Since elves in D&D is pretty much a ripoff from Tolkien...
Talrinys
10-23-04, 10:04 AM Hmm, i think i'll just rewrite the whole story, damn, thought it was pretty good :-(
Mirtek
10-23-04, 10:44 AM I'm pretty certain they don't have copyright over the race Drow. Does Tolkien have copyright on Elves? Since elves in D&D is pretty much a ripoff from Tolkien... Well, there are some major differences between Tolkien elves and D&D elves (e.g. their mortality)

Would be interesting to know if there are differences between WotC Drow and Drow from third party D20 publishers.

Anyone with a D20 supplement about Drow who can tell us about how much they equal D&D Drow?
Gray Richardson
10-23-04, 12:03 PM Hmm, i think i'll just rewrite the whole story, damn, thought it was pretty good :-(Nah, don't do that. Fanfic is a time-honored tradition. Keep your story as is.

I know this is a very fine point, but copyright law allows you to write stories using others' intellectual property so long as the the owner of the property does not object. If WotC sends you a cease and desist letter or email, then you will be on notice that they object and you would then be legally obligated to stop your infringing behavior. But free fanfic usually operates under the radar and is not often objected to by the kind folks at WotC. I cannot swear they will not have their attorneys crack down on fanfic in the future but as far as I know they are generally pretty cool about that kind of thing so long as you are fairly inoccuous and not trying to make a profit or anything.

There are a ton of such fanfic websites already on the web. Fanfic is actually helpful in a way to WotC because it allows Realms fans to discuss and share their hobby with each other, reinforcing the brand and amounting to free advertising for WotC.

By the way, the word "drow" is not the intellectual property of WotC, there are documented pre-existing uses of the word before TSR starting using it. The idea of dark-elves also is prior art that goes back to Norse mythology. WotC probably does have a good argument that their particular conception and representation of the drow is their intellectual property but what all that would entail I am not exactly sure.
Gray Richardson
10-23-04, 12:10 PM Would be interesting to know if there are differences between WotC Drow and Drow from third party D20 publishers.

Anyone with a D20 supplement about Drow who can tell us about how much they equal D&D Drow?Drow are in the SRD so WotC has granted specific license to use Drow in third party d20 products, assuming the publisher is compliant with their license.

3rd party publishers can legally use the drow but they are not allowed to use names and places and other distinguishing intellectual property in which WotC retains its rights.
Talrinys
10-23-04, 01:03 PM Aka i can create a world a lot like FR, but no names used, and now many things similiar, and it doesn't violate any copyright laws.
WizO_BigSister
10-23-04, 02:08 PM Lately there has been a wave of posts saying the FR authors and designers plagiarized Tolkien (ripped off his ideas), and spreading the myth that this is a "well known fact".

Repeatedly accusing people of what amounts to theft violates the Code of Conducts rules about harassing people. Hiding your accusations behind "everyone knows this" or using a general "they" that avoids admitting you are talking about real people just makes it worse. Remember these people you are insulting, and whose ethics you are attacking actually read these forums ... and you wonder why so many of the writers have stopped posting here and answering questions. :(

Making claims about legal action and suing people that are not based in fact borders on libel. Face it ... if any of these claims were true then legal action would have been taken. Quite obviously it hasn't!

If this trend is allowed to continue it could have serious consequences for these forums ... the novels rules should have taught you that your actions on the WotC site do have consequences. Unfortunately I and several other patrons have been repeatedly posting the facts that explode this myth, but unfortunately that hasn't been enough to stop this type of post. I am now forced to start editing posts and closing threads. So far all the warnings I am giving out are general, and “off the record”. I am asking everyone to make sure the WizO team doesn’t have to do anything more serious.
WizO_BigSister
10-23-04, 02:17 PM Talrinys mirtek is right. Copyright covers ANY use of the material - whether it is free or not. To be absolutely sure your project is ok before putting in such a huge amount of work I would advise you to contact custserv@wizards.com and ask for their advice.

You can find some general advice and very useful links on copyright here Copyright & Using Other People's Work (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=228075)
Ramius_Mordale
10-23-04, 04:14 PM WizO_BigSister, I am currently a struggling writer and am interested in writing for the FR world and actually have some actual good characters I think would spice things up a bit. I know the world is fine as it is, but I think FR needs to see a breath of fresh air. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying you don't have quality authors already writing I'm actually trying to get into the FR novels, but I am currently 20 and getting older and really have no idea how to get my foot into the door of novel writing. I'm currently trying to write a fantasy book myself that has nothing to do with FR but was wondering if you could possibly at least give me a link or name of a person that covers this type of stuff.

As I said above I am interested in writing for FR, I know I have no official sources to give you, but as noted above I have no idea where to start looking. I know I'm about to get posted that I'm just lazy and what not but seriously I don't know the first thing about looking for publishers or getting my writings out there. Any help you could give me would be most appreciated. Thanks.

(This does not just solely apply to WizO_BigSister, if there are any writers here or publishers or anybody that has any idea where to look it would be greatly helpful.)
royalpred
10-23-04, 05:20 PM Well, if you get it published, its fine as long as you send it to Forgotten Realms to publish it...otherwise, yeah...its not legal.
BrianCritchley
10-23-04, 08:30 PM fan fiction is useally fine. I can't see WOTC having a problem with it unless it contained questionable material. etc
Cunning Linguist
10-24-04, 03:08 AM It also comes down to where in the world you are residing. Copyrightlaws is a weird and strange thing that differs all over the world.

And, if you wrote it as a satire of the realms, it would also be legal. Or you wrote it for purpose of research, it would also be legal.

There is also the twist, you can write about a place Menzoberanzan and you can talk about known npcs that live there, if you can prove that they are presented as facts.

So, in this case, there is really not a legal, not legal issue. If Wizards thinks you did a bad thing, they sue you, and you defend yourself with fair use laws. It all comes down to how much you use, where you publish it, how you write it and to whom you write. I suggest typing in Fair Use in a search bar and having yourself a read.
Ramius_Mordale
10-24-04, 04:47 AM Okay I'm going to take the hint and just assume no one either wants to help me out, or just doesn't know. So if anyone thinks of anything feel free to just instant message me or whatever.
Another Gnome
10-24-04, 05:50 AM Have a look at Elaine Cunninngham's FAQ for some ideas:

link (http://www.elainecunningham.com/FAQ.htm)

And I might add that if you're willing to accept defeat after one day of waiting, patience is what you must learn.
Ramius_Mordale
10-24-04, 06:28 AM Have a look at Elaine Cunninngham's FAQ for some ideas:

link (http://www.elainecunningham.com/FAQ.htm)

And I might add that if you're willing to accept defeat after one day of waiting, patience is what you must learn.

Sorry, its just been a bad day from after I posted, so I apologize for the statement and for taking it out on this board. Heh, I've never been one for patiences when I'm really into something. When I first got into D&D I swear I blew all my money cotinuously to by anything a everything that pertained to D&D back in 3.0. Well now I'm just down to buying stuff from WotC and novels.

In any case, I apologize for my snap judgement. I've been at this a while so I just a bit frustrated with still being stuck at ground zero for so long. Anyways thank you all for your input, I didn't mean to make it sound like I'm not gracious for your help. Anyways, thank you for the link Another Gnome. I appreciate it. If anybody else has anything that can help I'm still interested. And yes I know I'm apologizing again, but sorry again for my error in judgement.
WizO_BigSister
10-24-04, 06:13 PM Ramius I personally don't know how the WotC view all the issues involved in your query, but I do know it's not a simple matter. That's why I posted the contact address to get more information about this issue. I also think you need to take a good wander through the forum devoted to members own writing Once Upon A Time (http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=344) ... it includes threads on how to start out etc as well as actual stories.
Yamo
10-24-04, 09:42 PM It doesn't matter at all whether you publish it for free or for profit, as far as the legal status is concerned.

This is incorrect.
Ramius_Mordale
10-25-04, 01:43 AM Thanks for your help Big_Sis, every little bit helps. I'll definiately check this stuff out. Thanks for your time and efforts on this.
WizO_BigSister
10-25-04, 05:04 PM This is incorrect.

Yamo I would strongly recomment you read the pages linked to in Copyright & Using Other People's Work (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=228075) especially point number 6 in this article (http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Talrinys 10-23-04, 02:53 AM	I am currently writing a novel about a drow wizard from menzoberranzan. It has a few references to gromph, and a few other thins from the FR books. Now i would like to know if writing it is illegal, because i am breaking a copyright? i don't see how it could harm them in anyway, but i don't want to break any laws.
Charles Phipps 10-23-04, 03:05 AM	If its fanfic, no one really will mind if its published for free. Especially with a disclaimer. If its sold for money then yes and people will object.
Talrinys 10-23-04, 03:23 AM	That is great :-) thanks a lot, i only want to publish if for free, and make a website about it, but i have no idea at all about any legal stuff. What is a disclaimer anyways :-P? Sorry for the stupid questions, but i'm only 13
Mirtek 10-23-04, 03:33 AM	Well, first of all you have to be aware of the following: It doesn't matter at all whether you publish it for free or for profit, as far as the legal status is concerned. Even if you publish it for free, the copyright violation is exacty the same as for realising it for profit. And it's not the reference to Gromph, the whole story about a drow wizard in Menzo is breaking WotC's copyright. That are the bad news. The good news are that most companies won't act against things like this, as long as it's done for free and not for profit. You just have to be aware that this is not because of some "As long as it's for free it's not illegal" thing, but just because the companies are friendly enough to allow such things, while they have all legal rights to act against you. They only chose to not use their rights, but they could if they wanted to.
Talrinys 10-23-04, 03:42 AM	Ok, so what if i didn't talk about Meno at all, i guess WOTC still owns the right to any type of drow/underdark story?
Mirtek 10-23-04, 04:19 AM	Well, it all would depend on how much copyright WotC has about the drow. Menzo/Gromph are theirs, but what about the drow race in general. I would think they have them as well, but other D20 companies have released supplements about Drow. Thus you should be able to write about Drow, as long as you do not use names/places from FR
Charles Phipps 10-23-04, 04:26 AM	Open Game License leases all stuff out for supplements. I don't think the same applies to game fiction though.
Talrinys 10-23-04, 04:38 AM	Ya i have been having trouble finding the copyright for drow. Considering most LARP campaigns have some variation of drow, that people pay to play, i guess WOTC doesn't own the copyright. And ya i know about OGC, but that is mostly for rules, not fiction.
maynardjkeenan 10-23-04, 08:40 AM	I'm pretty certain they don't have copyright over the race Drow. Does Tolkien have copyright on Elves? Since elves in D&D is pretty much a ripoff from Tolkien...
Talrinys 10-23-04, 10:04 AM	Hmm, i think i'll just rewrite the whole story, damn, thought it was pretty good :-(
Mirtek 10-23-04, 10:44 AM	I'm pretty certain they don't have copyright over the race Drow. Does Tolkien have copyright on Elves? Since elves in D&D is pretty much a ripoff from Tolkien... Well, there are some major differences between Tolkien elves and D&D elves (e.g. their mortality) Would be interesting to know if there are differences between WotC Drow and Drow from third party D20 publishers. Anyone with a D20 supplement about Drow who can tell us about how much they equal D&D Drow?
Gray Richardson 10-23-04, 12:03 PM	Hmm, i think i'll just rewrite the whole story, damn, thought it was pretty good :-(Nah, don't do that. Fanfic is a time-honored tradition. Keep your story as is. I know this is a very fine point, but copyright law allows you to write stories using others' intellectual property so long as the the owner of the property does not object. If WotC sends you a cease and desist letter or email, then you will be on notice that they object and you would then be legally obligated to stop your infringing behavior. But free fanfic usually operates under the radar and is not often objected to by the kind folks at WotC. I cannot swear they will not have their attorneys crack down on fanfic in the future but as far as I know they are generally pretty cool about that kind of thing so long as you are fairly inoccuous and not trying to make a profit or anything. There are a ton of such fanfic websites already on the web. Fanfic is actually helpful in a way to WotC because it allows Realms fans to discuss and share their hobby with each other, reinforcing the brand and amounting to free advertising for WotC. By the way, the word "drow" is not the intellectual property of WotC, there are documented pre-existing uses of the word before TSR starting using it. The idea of dark-elves also is prior art that goes back to Norse mythology. WotC probably does have a good argument that their particular conception and representation of the drow is their intellectual property but what all that would entail I am not exactly sure.
Gray Richardson 10-23-04, 12:10 PM	Would be interesting to know if there are differences between WotC Drow and Drow from third party D20 publishers. Anyone with a D20 supplement about Drow who can tell us about how much they equal D&D Drow?Drow are in the SRD so WotC has granted specific license to use Drow in third party d20 products, assuming the publisher is compliant with their license. 3rd party publishers can legally use the drow but they are not allowed to use names and places and other distinguishing intellectual property in which WotC retains its rights.
Talrinys 10-23-04, 01:03 PM	Aka i can create a world a lot like FR, but no names used, and now many things similiar, and it doesn't violate any copyright laws.
WizO_BigSister 10-23-04, 02:08 PM	Lately there has been a wave of posts saying the FR authors and designers plagiarized Tolkien (ripped off his ideas), and spreading the myth that this is a "well known fact". Repeatedly accusing people of what amounts to theft violates the Code of Conducts rules about harassing people. Hiding your accusations behind "everyone knows this" or using a general "they" that avoids admitting you are talking about real people just makes it worse. Remember these people you are insulting, and whose ethics you are attacking actually read these forums ... and you wonder why so many of the writers have stopped posting here and answering questions. :( Making claims about legal action and suing people that are not based in fact borders on libel. Face it ... if any of these claims were true then legal action would have been taken. Quite obviously it hasn't! If this trend is allowed to continue it could have serious consequences for these forums ... the novels rules should have taught you that your actions on the WotC site do have consequences. Unfortunately I and several other patrons have been repeatedly posting the facts that explode this myth, but unfortunately that hasn't been enough to stop this type of post. I am now forced to start editing posts and closing threads. So far all the warnings I am giving out are general, and “off the record”. I am asking everyone to make sure the WizO team doesn’t have to do anything more serious.
WizO_BigSister 10-23-04, 02:17 PM	Talrinys mirtek is right. Copyright covers ANY use of the material - whether it is free or not. To be absolutely sure your project is ok before putting in such a huge amount of work I would advise you to contact custserv@wizards.com and ask for their advice. You can find some general advice and very useful links on copyright here Copyright & Using Other People's Work (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=228075)
Ramius_Mordale 10-23-04, 04:14 PM	WizO_BigSister, I am currently a struggling writer and am interested in writing for the FR world and actually have some actual good characters I think would spice things up a bit. I know the world is fine as it is, but I think FR needs to see a breath of fresh air. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying you don't have quality authors already writing I'm actually trying to get into the FR novels, but I am currently 20 and getting older and really have no idea how to get my foot into the door of novel writing. I'm currently trying to write a fantasy book myself that has nothing to do with FR but was wondering if you could possibly at least give me a link or name of a person that covers this type of stuff. As I said above I am interested in writing for FR, I know I have no official sources to give you, but as noted above I have no idea where to start looking. I know I'm about to get posted that I'm just lazy and what not but seriously I don't know the first thing about looking for publishers or getting my writings out there. Any help you could give me would be most appreciated. Thanks. (This does not just solely apply to WizO_BigSister, if there are any writers here or publishers or anybody that has any idea where to look it would be greatly helpful.)
royalpred 10-23-04, 05:20 PM	Well, if you get it published, its fine as long as you send it to Forgotten Realms to publish it...otherwise, yeah...its not legal.
BrianCritchley 10-23-04, 08:30 PM	fan fiction is useally fine. I can't see WOTC having a problem with it unless it contained questionable material. etc
Cunning Linguist 10-24-04, 03:08 AM	It also comes down to where in the world you are residing. Copyrightlaws is a weird and strange thing that differs all over the world. And, if you wrote it as a satire of the realms, it would also be legal. Or you wrote it for purpose of research, it would also be legal. There is also the twist, you can write about a place Menzoberanzan and you can talk about known npcs that live there, if you can prove that they are presented as facts. So, in this case, there is really not a legal, not legal issue. If Wizards thinks you did a bad thing, they sue you, and you defend yourself with fair use laws. It all comes down to how much you use, where you publish it, how you write it and to whom you write. I suggest typing in Fair Use in a search bar and having yourself a read.
Ramius_Mordale 10-24-04, 04:47 AM	Okay I'm going to take the hint and just assume no one either wants to help me out, or just doesn't know. So if anyone thinks of anything feel free to just instant message me or whatever.
Another Gnome 10-24-04, 05:50 AM	Have a look at Elaine Cunninngham's FAQ for some ideas: link (http://www.elainecunningham.com/FAQ.htm) And I might add that if you're willing to accept defeat after one day of waiting, patience is what you must learn.
Ramius_Mordale 10-24-04, 06:28 AM	Have a look at Elaine Cunninngham's FAQ for some ideas: link (http://www.elainecunningham.com/FAQ.htm) And I might add that if you're willing to accept defeat after one day of waiting, patience is what you must learn. Sorry, its just been a bad day from after I posted, so I apologize for the statement and for taking it out on this board. Heh, I've never been one for patiences when I'm really into something. When I first got into D&D I swear I blew all my money cotinuously to by anything a everything that pertained to D&D back in 3.0. Well now I'm just down to buying stuff from WotC and novels. In any case, I apologize for my snap judgement. I've been at this a while so I just a bit frustrated with still being stuck at ground zero for so long. Anyways thank you all for your input, I didn't mean to make it sound like I'm not gracious for your help. Anyways, thank you for the link Another Gnome. I appreciate it. If anybody else has anything that can help I'm still interested. And yes I know I'm apologizing again, but sorry again for my error in judgement.
WizO_BigSister 10-24-04, 06:13 PM	Ramius I personally don't know how the WotC view all the issues involved in your query, but I do know it's not a simple matter. That's why I posted the contact address to get more information about this issue. I also think you need to take a good wander through the forum devoted to members own writing Once Upon A Time (http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=344) ... it includes threads on how to start out etc as well as actual stories.
Yamo 10-24-04, 09:42 PM	It doesn't matter at all whether you publish it for free or for profit, as far as the legal status is concerned. This is incorrect.
Ramius_Mordale 10-25-04, 01:43 AM	Thanks for your help Big_Sis, every little bit helps. I'll definiately check this stuff out. Thanks for your time and efforts on this.
WizO_BigSister 10-25-04, 05:04 PM	This is incorrect. Yamo I would strongly recomment you read the pages linked to in Copyright & Using Other People's Work (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=228075) especially point number 6 in this article (http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html)