Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ywhtptgtfo 02-15-08, 03:17 AM	There're a number of ways to take Mystra out of the spotlight without killing her like... letting her absorb the Shadow Weave (creating the spellplague), ascend to overdeity status, and then leave Realmspace. The chosens will still receive powers from her, but she will no longer commune with them actively.
Lord Karsus 02-15-08, 09:54 AM	-Your pleas fall on deaf ears, ywhtptgtfo.
Markustay 02-15-08, 10:03 AM	Also, in your scenario, the only thing you accomplished was keeping the Chosen around, and perhaps the Weave. The designers decided to get rid of the weave, because it was too 'clunky' rules-wise (even though it was great flavor-wise). Basically, if you want the Chosen in your game, say that they learned how to tap into Raw magic (perhaps a gift from Mytrsa herself at the last possible instant?). If you want the Weave, just refer to the Arcane Power source thusly in your game - it was really nothing more then a flavorful term anyway. Mystra's death, though, is important for changing the rules, and I've come to terms with that. Don't like much of what came out of that, like the Spellplague, but I can see where Mystra's death is very helpful from a design standpoint. And if you miss her so mush, you can always build yourself a fortress on her corpse in the Astral... if the Githyanki haven't already done so. ;) Then again, she should have several bodies floating around in there...
Lord Karsus 02-15-08, 10:21 AM	Then again, she should have several bodies floating around in there... -Technically, she shouldn't have any, since the essence that is Mystra (Midnight) is the same essence that is Mystra and Mystryl.
Markustay 02-15-08, 10:32 AM	Well, there should be a least one, as of 1385 DR. ;) I guess your right - otherwise thre would be like 10 Moander corpses, eight Orcus bodies, at least five Tiamet carcasses, etc, etc... Even in an infinite plain, it could get kind of crowded in there after awhile. :P
Alediran 02-15-08, 10:33 AM	And technically there IS another Mystra raised by AO, it's just that SHAR (AGAIN!!) is stopping her ascension (WTF????).
Markustay 02-15-08, 10:37 AM	Well, Shar is currently wearing the Armor of Mary Sue, an ancient Bakeronian Artifact that keeps her safe from the attacks of Overgods. :P On some worlds, it is referred to as Plot Armor. ;)
Lord Karsus 02-15-08, 10:44 AM	Well, there should be a least one, as of 1385 DR. ;) -That's still ten years in the future. The current date is 1375 DR, after all. I guess your right - otherwise thre would be like 10 Moander corpses, eight Orcus bodies, at least five Tiamet carcasses, etc, etc... Even in an infinite plain, it could get kind of crowded in there after awhile. :P -Geeze, yeah, I never gave that part much thought.
Alediran 02-15-08, 10:45 AM	The Githyanki don't mind :P
Lord Karsus 02-15-08, 10:46 AM	The Githyanki don't mind :P -That causes postal service problems: 559 Main Street, Moander...Which Moander!
Alediran 02-15-08, 10:49 AM	As if the githyanki wanted letters...
Lord Karsus 02-15-08, 10:51 AM	As if the githyanki wanted letters... -Sure: "Tom, bro, me n' the boys are going Illithid hunting tomorrow. You in? Oh, P.S., I heard your dad is hittin' the Lich Queen. Dude, sweet."
Fabius Maximus 02-15-08, 12:05 PM	-Sure: "Tom, bro, me n' the boys are going Illithid hunting tomorrow. You in? Oh, P.S., I heard your dad is hittin' the Lich Queen. Dude, sweet." There goes the neighborhood...
Lord Karsus 02-15-08, 12:17 PM	There goes the neighborhood... -That's what the Githyanki living on some of the older corpses in the Astral- Aoaskar, Borem, etc.- were saying.
Charles Phipps 02-15-08, 12:21 PM	eh, in our campaign, she's imprisoned like Waukeen was. That's why she hasn't been reborn. Let's hope we'll get the Rescue of Mystra module, eventually.
Lord Karsus 02-15-08, 12:27 PM	Let's hope we'll get the Rescue of Mystra module, eventually. -I can guarantee there will be something. I can't tell you what, exactly, nor can I tell you when, or the outcome, but it's an opportunity that would be moronic to pass up, especially with so many people dismayed by her death. What? A three-part module to bring her back to life!? Sure, I'll buy it! -How sweet would it be if Mystra wasn't brought back in the end? Heh heh heh...
Markustay 02-15-08, 01:38 PM	And what purpose would that serve, except just to bring her back, after everyone has 'moved on' and realized she WASN'T beneficent at all, but rather a control freak and magical tyrant? Mages will have MORE power within 4e, and most will blame her for the Spellplague, because it was HER collapsing weave that caused it. Like I said before, I have NOTHING against Mystra - I don't really care about her either way - but bringing her back after her death would be SO comic book/Soap Operaish, and REDUNDANT, that I wouldn't care for it at all. Death of Superman, anyone? :bored:
Charles Phipps 02-15-08, 01:43 PM	And what purpose would that serve, except just to bring her back To sell books. Death of Superman, anyone? I hate to point this out, but you do realize that was the highest grossing book story of all time for DC, right?
Lord Karsus 02-15-08, 02:06 PM	And what purpose would that serve, except just to bring her back, after everyone has 'moved on' and realized she WASN'T beneficent at all, but rather a control freak and magical tyrant? -To sell three adventure books, making money. -That's why, as I said, the most...'cool' ending would be, after everything is said and done, and people buy three superadventures worth of materials, Mystra isn't brought back.
Charles Phipps 02-15-08, 02:12 PM	-To sell three adventure books, making money. -That's why, as I said, the most...'cool' ending would be, after everything is said and done, and people buy three superadventures worth of materials, Mystra isn't brought back. It depends. I'm an advocate of what one comic book writer said, I believe it was Bennis. Basically, "Resurrections are necessary in comic books because some idiot didn't realize that there were more stories to tell with a classic character."
Alediran 02-15-08, 02:14 PM	But WotC never got that phrase.
Charles Phipps 02-15-08, 02:21 PM	Well, Bane's proof they did. And Living Greyhawk. ;-)
Alediran 02-15-08, 02:23 PM	Different development teams, different times.
Lord Karsus 02-15-08, 02:31 PM	It depends. I'm an advocate of what one comic book writer said, I believe it was Bennis. Basically, "Resurrections are necessary in comic books because some idiot didn't realize that there were more stories to tell with a classic character." -Thus far, at least, they seem to be pretty sure of the fact that Mystra needed to go. I don't really forsee them changing their minds. That could possibly alienate the crowd that many of these changes attracted in the first place, and could possibly throw a wrench in the entire 4e magical system idea. -Which is why I say teasing a return of Mystra, but in the end, not delivering, would be perfect. Or, perhaps, in another fashion. A mortal, perhaps?
Charles Phipps 02-15-08, 02:32 PM	-Thus far, at least, they seem to be pretty sure of the fact that Mystra needed to go. I don't really forsee them changing their minds. That could possibly alienate the crowd that many of these changes attracted in the first place, and could possibly throw a wrench in the entire 4e magical system idea. -Which is why I say teasing a return of Mystra, but in the end, not delivering, would be perfect. Or, perhaps, in another fashion. A mortal, perhaps? 1. Developer's teams change and, frankly, change their minds. We've seen several cases of this on the board. 2. I would feel it would result in a lot of bad press. Furthermore, the people attracted to the story would also spread word of mouth about the ending. Only a crowd pleaser would sell. 3. In-story changes are non-nonsensical by nature.
Lord Karsus 02-15-08, 02:37 PM	1. Developer's teams change and, frankly, change their minds. We've seen several cases of this on the board. -Rich Baker has been the 'head' of the Realms for quite a few years now, and doesn't seem to be going anywhere. 2. I would feel it would result in a lot of bad press. Furthermore, the people attracted to the story would also spread word of mouth about the ending. Only a crowd pleaser would sell. -Leaving an ambiguous answer, that doesn't change canon, or allows one to choose one way or the other in their own campaigns, then.
Charles Phipps 02-15-08, 02:41 PM	-Rich Baker has been the 'head' of the Realms for quite a few years now, and doesn't seem to be going anywhere. Yes. He's actually at the top of the list of people I think would be willing to change their mind. I figure it would go like this. "Hey! I have a great idea for Mystra's return!" "Really, okay." -Leaving an ambiguous answer, that doesn't change canon, or allows one to choose one way or the other in their own campaigns, then. I think the only setting that never gave answers for module results was "Ravenloft" and even they pretty much declared the games non-canon by fiat since all the Darklords were still alive at the end.
Lord Karsus 02-15-08, 02:46 PM	I think the only setting that never gave answers for module results was "Ravenloft" and even they pretty much declared the games non-canon by fiat since all the Darklords were still alive at the end. -I didn't mean ambiguous as in no answer. I meant it in such a way that, until a later product said something definitive, one could take it one way or the other. For example, such an adventure module trilogy could end with the PCs performing the relevant ritual, and seven silver stars appear in the sky. But, that's all. Something to that effect, more or less.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-15-08, 02:59 PM	-Leaving an ambiguous answer, that doesn't change canon, or allows one to choose one way or the other in their own campaigns, then. I would agree with that, although I've gotten the impression of late that WotC always wants to have an "official" answer.
XHereticX 02-15-08, 09:05 PM	Well, Shar is currently wearing the Armor of Mary Sue, an ancient Bakeronian Artifact that keeps her safe from the attacks of Overgods. :P On some worlds, it is referred to as Plot Armor. ;) She stole it from the Simbul?:D On topic, I don't think they will bring Mystra back in 4e. If sales are poor however and the old school continues to issue blatant and outspoken complaints, they might deign to do so in 5e, though most likely with a whole different background and purpose.
MarkusTay63 02-16-08, 12:33 AM	I hate to point this out, but you do realize that was the highest grossing book story of all time for DC, right?His death? Yes... I had all three copies myself (Black, White, and newstand) But bringing him back cheapened his death. Don't get me wrong, I like the big boyscout, and enjoyed the four supermen storyline for that year, but I still wish he had remained dead. I joke with my sister and wife all the time - both are Soap Opera junkies - that I want a job as the Gravedigger in Port Charles (General Hospital), because he NEVER has to work because they NEVER recover any bodies! Seriously... there isn't one godamn corpse in the whole cemetary! Thats how often they bring back dead charcters... and two were even ghosts for awhile!!! Bringing back Mystra would be like bringing back Khelben - let them rest in peace, for Chrisakes! 4e is supposed to be about NEW stories, and if the only thing they can think of doing is bringing back the stuff they nuked, then it's doomed from the start.
Lord Karsus 02-16-08, 06:42 AM	Bringing back Mystra would be like bringing back Khelben - let them rest in peace, for Chrisakes! -The first rule of comic books: Nobody dies permanently. 4e is supposed to be about NEW stories, and if the only thing they can think of doing is bringing back the stuff they nuked, then it's doomed from the start. -They've already stated in the past that they want the 4e Realms to be loosely detailed, and yet, Chris Perkins stated that one of the 4e Forgotten Realms Core Books is going to come with a heavily detailed 'starting area'. So, what's the surprise?
Alediran 02-16-08, 08:06 AM	Their inconsistency? That's why I think they'll restore eerything in some time, when The Realms Vault is already established as a place for Classic Realms. They'll need us and our Realmslore, how cool is that eh?
MarkusTay63 02-16-08, 11:16 AM	Problem is, in business, once customers get used to going elsewhere for their goods and services, there is very little chance in getting them back. Forgotten Realms cannot stay a viable Intellectual Property if most of the lore is maintained by fansites. I think D&D will be around awhile longer, but I don't hold out much hope for the Realms. :(