Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nighttfall 11-06-03, 01:46 AM	Just cause we deserve to fight it out here. :P :):b: :b: :b:
Nighttfall 11-06-03, 01:53 AM	So I open the floor to the opposing side. That is people that believe Orcus is dead in the Realms...or at least dead overall.
Gadodel 11-06-03, 02:02 AM	Digs out old record, dusts it off and plays it again just for you Nightfall. :D IMC, Orcus is alive-in a matter of speaking and well. He is an Abyssal Lord straight out of the BoVD. He gained more followers on Toril after the Time of Troubles. The deaths of various Deities helped in this regard. Though, Kelemvor has been a concern and rival as of late. Not being a Deity has not slowed Orcus down. He has taken full advantage of various cosmic loopholes and frequently visits Toril in person...sorta speak. Lately, Orcus has been attracted to Westgate. A certain Vampire Lord and his goons have "invited" Orcus. Though, it is rumored that Orcus has also been invited to Calimshan and he just may take up "The Twisted Rune" as new partners.
Kuje31 11-06-03, 02:03 AM	Bah, I've said my peace in the other thread. I really don't understand why some people don't see why he is alive and is still a deity, but as was said, me and you are in the minority.......
Herr Doktor 11-06-03, 02:11 AM	As far as I'm concerned he's alive (or exists anyway). Faiths and Pantheons lists him as a Lesser Deity... If he were still considered officially deceased then wouldn't Bhaal, Myrkul and other dead gods appear on these lists also?
Kuje31 11-06-03, 02:25 AM	Originally posted by Herr Doktor As far as I'm concerned he's alive (or exists anyway). Faiths and Pantheons lists him as a Lesser Deity... If he were still considered officially deceased then wouldn't Bhaal, Myrkul and other dead gods appear on these lists also? Excatly, and as I said in the Rich Baker thread, he has a priest, who is 9th level and a 4th level barbarian, in the Unapproachable East sourcebook If he didn't get his spells, from Orcus, then the passage should not have read, "the cleric takes living people and sacrifices them to his demonic patron." Or if the cleric got his spells from some other deity, it would most likely have said what deity that is, and since it does not, it has to be Orcus.
Shemeska the Marauder 11-06-03, 04:00 AM	I think it's rather obvious that Orcus is alive, and while in the realms has a fairly minor presence, its probably a minor concern for him. After all, things back in the Abyss are much more pressing. I applaud him on both his rise from his Astral grave, and his prior obliteration of Primus (though temporary), Bwimb I, Manzecorian, and at least one other power. None of which had a presence on Toril mind you, at least that I'm aware of. However I'm awaiting when he gets his affairs back home in order and revisits Kiaranselee for a bit of settling old feuds... *tips razorvine tiara to Nightfall the official Orcus posterboy*
Dargoth 11-06-03, 04:15 AM	1) Hes Dead (twice once courtousy of Garath Dragonsbane and once from Kiranshee) 2) Orcus Planescape adventures are invalid (the FR doesnt use the Planescape Cosmology. 3) Orcus job has been taken. Velshoon and Kiranshee are covering Undeath, Kiranshee being the slayer of orcus would have posession ALL Orcus former worshipers whether they worship her as Kiaranshee or Orcus it doesnt matter 4) Orcus would need to get Aos permission inorder to return to the FR which hes not likely to get. Ao would see no reason for letting Orcus back in 5) Hypothetically if Orcus came back he'd be dead meat it would be a race between Kiranshee, Velshoon and Kelemvor to wipe him out
thalious 11-06-03, 04:26 AM	IMC Orcus is alive, but not well. His soul had been trapped for a time, but is free now and back in the Abyss plotting his comeback tour :devil:
Kuje31 11-06-03, 04:31 AM	Originally posted by Dargoth 1) Hes Dead (twice once courtousy of Garath Dragonsbane and once from Kiranshee) 3) Orcus job has been taken. Velshoon and Kiranshee are covering Undeath, Kiranshee being the slayer of orcus would have posession ALL Orcus former worshipers whether they worship her as Kiaranshee or Orcus it doesnt matter 4) Orcus would need to get Aos permission inorder to return to the FR which hes not likely to get. Ao would see no reason for letting Orcus back in 5) Hypothetically if Orcus came back he'd be dead meat it would be a race between Kiranshee, Velshoon and Kelemvor to wipe him out He's not dead, AO must have let him back in, and since you are just being extremely pig headed here. What is going to be your excuse if the Player's Guide doesn't update the info from two different 3/3.5 books? Will you then say, "Oh, i'll just wait for the next one and hope they update his info then." Give me a break, he's alive and a deity, and you just don't want to accept it. And no his cleric does not get his spells from Kiranshee, he get's them from Orcus. And well I beg to differ about the new planes, then WOTC really needs to stop adding portals to Sigil (there's one in F&P) and Pandomium (there's one in Underdark) into the new products. I'll go with Rich's answers also: "Whats the deal with Orcus in the Forgotten Realms? I wish I could say there was a sound, well thought-out, involved explanation for the vicissitudes of Orcus, but I can't. Orcus has been an odd fit in FR since the days of the Bloodstone Lands, and he fell victim to the "transplanar existence" of 2E--Orcus getting whacked somewhere else meant Orcus getting whacked in FR. So, I guess I can't provide a good explanation. I suppose Orcus proved tougher than Kiaransalee expected." That last line to me reads, Orcus is still alive and well as a deity in FR. :) And there are two different 3/3.5 sourcebooks to back this up.
Gadodel 11-06-03, 05:04 AM	Well, I used *IMC* in my post. YMMV.... ;)
Dargoth 11-06-03, 05:05 AM	If Orcus appears in the PGTF then ill accept hes back, Ill thnk its Stupid unless come up with a really good reason why hes back and personally I cant see any good reason for bringing him back , I really dont knoiw why the FR are Team are bothering to bring him back
Gadodel 11-06-03, 06:48 AM	Well, that is your opinion. You are entitled to it. Some folks like Orcus. Some don't. Personally, he's another character to through in the big ol mix. :D
Kuje31 11-06-03, 01:07 PM	Originally posted by Dargoth If Orcus appears in the PGTF then ill accept hes back, Ill thnk its Stupid unless come up with a really good reason why hes back and personally I cant see any good reason for bringing him back , I really dont knoiw why the FR are Team are bothering to bring him back My question still stands, if the Player's Guide has no new info on him, then what is going to be your excuse that he's still "dead" since the old 3/3.5 material was not over written.......
Mirtek 11-06-03, 01:44 PM	Originally posted by Dargoth 2) Orcus Planescape adventures are invalid (the FR doesnt use the Planescape Cosmology. FR did in 2e and that was when he did return. He was already back before the switch from 2e to 3e and thus there's no need to explain his return in 3e, since he was already back at the end of 2e
jinat 11-06-03, 03:05 PM	can somebody tell me in which product Kiranshee destroyed Orcus?
Kuje31 11-06-03, 03:39 PM	Originally posted by jinat can somebody tell me in which product Kiranshee destroyed Orcus? Orcus returned in the Planescape module Dead Gods. I forgot if this is also the module where she killed him......
Nighttfall 11-06-03, 03:51 PM	Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder However I'm awaiting when he gets his affairs back home in order and revisits Kiaranselee for a bit of settling old feuds... *tips razorvine tiara to Nightfall the official Orcus posterboy* You and me both Shem. And thanks. :)
Israfel666 11-06-03, 03:57 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 Orcus returned in the Planescape module Dead Gods. I forgot if this is also the module where she killed him...... I thought that the module dealth with actually stopping an ex-cleric from resurrecting Tenebrous (new name of Orcus after he returned from the dead as an undead archdemon, only to be killed again)
Nighttfall 11-06-03, 04:03 PM	Originally posted by Dargoth 1) Hes Dead (twice once courtousy of Garath Dragonsbane and once from Kiranshee) Gareth NEVER killed Orcus. He killed some of his minions, but there is NOTHING in the Bloodstone Modules that actually SAYS "Orcus dies". What Gareth and the rest DID do was break his wand. He got that back. Orcus WAS weakened I'll grant you that, and that's mostly thanks to Bahumet whom sent people to fight Tiamat and thus break the Wand that way. But otherwise Gareth and his companions never faced Orcus at ANY time. Originally posted by Dargoth 2) Orcus Planescape adventures are invalid (the FR doesnt use the Planescape Cosmology. And yet it's because of Planescape we have some of the things like planar fights and the Blood War. Sure it's changed now but the history is STILL there. Originally posted by Dargoth 3) Orcus job has been taken. Velshoon and Kiranshee are covering Undeath, Kiranshee being the slayer of orcus would have posession ALL Orcus former worshipers whether they worship her as Kiaranshee or Orcus it doesnt matter Originally posted by Dargoth Not true as both Kuje and I have consistently pointed out that Velshroon had little influence with the Nar barbarians. Nor has Kiralesee has any dealings with humans. So while you might argue they MIGHT get power from that, seems to me far less likely since both are too petty and small minded to care much about Nar or the Bloodstone lands. WHICH is where Orcus and the other Demon Princes have significant influence. As for your point on whether Orcus is unnecessary, I've already covered that. There are least 20 different deities that while might be demihuman in nature STILL are basically the same deity overall. Not to mention the cross pollination of many other panethons in the main Faerunian body. Originally posted by Dargoth 4) Orcus would need to get Aos permission inorder to return to the FR which hes not likely to get. Ao would see no reason for letting Orcus back in Since when has AO permission meant Jack? I mean if he's supposedly this "all seeing force of balance" you think he'd knew better than let some hack like Cyric take over THREE gods portifolios or more. The guy just didn't cut it and Zhential Keep payed the price. So don't start how "smart" Ao is. Far as I'm concerned he ranks right up there with the Tyco CEO and Enron's execs. 5) Hypothetically if Orcus came back he'd be dead meat it would be a race between Kiranshee, Velshoon and Kelemvor to wipe him out [/B][/QUOTE] Kelemovr, while Lord of the Dead, might have it out for Orcus. But Orcus is smart. He'll stay low until the Gods aren't look. As for Velshroon, Orcus has enough influence not to concern himself with that charlatan, especially in terms of worship through fear. Now I'll agree Kiareselee is another matter, but more in terms of Orcus wanting revenge on the Drow Cow. So he'll gather his forces slowly and try VERY hard to make the paranoid little trollop slip. He's had more experience and design in these matter. Believe me, I see him pulling this out, mostly as he'll be MORE focus than either of these three when it comes to what he wants.
Nighttfall 11-06-03, 04:05 PM	Originally posted by Mirtek FR did in 2e and that was when he did return. He was already back before the switch from 2e to 3e and thus there's no need to explain his return in 3e, since he was already back at the end of 2e Not to mention some events (like Modron March and the one module where Bane tried to return) were still apart of the mythos even if they had little bearing on any events in FR. Same is true with Asmodues and Vecna.
Nighttfall 11-06-03, 04:06 PM	Originally posted by Dargoth If Orcus appears in the PGTF then ill accept hes back, Ill thnk its Stupid unless come up with a really good reason why hes back and personally I cant see any good reason for bringing him back , I really dont knoiw why the FR are Team are bothering to bring him back Probably because unlike you, they recognize people LIKED some stuff from 1st and 2nd. Orcus and the other Demon Princes being one of those things. Along with of course the Arch Devils and Asmodeus.
Nighttfall 11-08-03, 02:03 AM	Boy I expected more from the opponents... Oh well. Guess I'm content with bumping erhm chalking this up to my great posting skills. Or something like that.
primemover003 11-08-03, 09:59 PM	Yes Orcus is alive and well and when I checked a Lesser god. And it's Kiaransalee, say it again Kiaransalee... 3 A's, 2 E's. And if Planescape doesn't count we'll take back our Planetouched thank you.
Nighttfall 11-08-03, 11:15 PM	Well Prime guy, thanks for the input and vote for "Keep Orcus around!" And yes I'm trying VERY hard to spell her name right.
Zanan 11-09-03, 09:51 AM	The BigSister cast a disintegration on my last post with the same contence, thus I paste it in here once more. The topic is more relevant anyway ... Originally posted by Dargoth ORCUS IS NOT NEEDED IN THE FR Very much so. Yet, for the time being, we have to accept that he is in a couple of books and his friends seem to like it. My reasoning about him is rather simple: He is back in FR, but nothing has been posted about this for a reason. The Book of Vile Darkness (Core) has said that he reclaimed his throne and palace of Thanatos and the "Drow goddess" who slew him and succeeded the Prince of Undead is gone - no-one knows why or whether she was killed. This is Core Rule stuff and might not be valid in Realmspace as yet. Of course, anyone who knows the story of the Revenancer and Orcus will see the similarities, since the plane and seat of Orcus' power is Thanatos, a place mentioned in both, FR and Core material. Now, we do know that Lolth's silence has empowered Kiaransalee and made her Lesser Deity, yet, just in case Lolth returns (and might even made a deal with Orcus) this could easily be reversed. The outcome COULD be the following: Lolth becomes a greater deity, Kiaransalee is slain and half of her portfolio shifts to Lolth (vengeance), the other to Orcus. This reappearance of Orcus is thus already known in Core Rules stuff, but we will not get the full story until after the "War of the Spider Queen" series is finished. All just a theory of mine, and a theory this very Zanan lass might not be entirely happy about, since it is "her" goddess that we speak about. But nonetheless, IMHO, quite feasible.
Nighttfall 11-09-03, 03:14 PM	Well Zanan, while you might not agree, it's still there. I also appreciate the fact that since the validity of our position might result in the death of your goddess, I am glad you can see it my way. For that you have my respect. In any case, so far it seems the "minority" has the upper hand at the moment.
primemover003 11-09-03, 04:39 PM	Zanan, there are technically only 3 Core rulebooks. The PHB, DMG, and MM. Everything else is Optional. In FR only the FRCS is "required" to play.
Gez 11-09-03, 04:50 PM	Velsharoon. Kiaransalee. Kiaranshee is a "valid word" in the Realms, but it designates a variety of banshee that serve Kiaransalee, not the goddess herself. At least no one mistyped Orcus' name. Guess the trouble starts at three syllables. Yes, Orcus is back. He's back in the Realms, and he's back in the Core too. There's a very simple reason for him to come back. That's his role. Orcus lives and become a powerful archmage. He dies, come back as a demon, and become a powerful demonlord and minor god. He dies, and come back as an undead powerful demonlord and minor god. He dies again, and come back again. Orcus is the Guardian. The End-Level Boss. You can kill him, and several other have done it before you, but next time someone enters the first level, he's there waiting for them once again. Orcus is immortal because he gets killed constantly. Death is, for him, a mere yet vexating temporary inconvenience. Like autumn and fall always come back after spring and summer, Orcus always died and always revive. It's a cycle. A harmonious cycle that should feel you with wonder and awe at the beauty of metaphysics and cosmology. After all, it's great to have a natural cosmical phenomena that cause an obese goat furry with a necro fetish to perpetually die and return to approximate life; but it's even greater when you can be part of that cycle and be the one who kill him and, just for the heck of it, delay his coming back by killing his chief minions too. And you know the best? Be sure to tell your story to your grandchildren, because they'll have to do the same thing! Orcus is a walking, breathing, cursing solution against adventurous joblessness. Finally, another reason to keep Orcus around is the guy is an artist. The sheer variety of demons and undead he created is amazing and unrivaled. You could fill a monster manual just with them. (But it would be pretty narrow in theme, I must admit.)
Nighttfall 11-09-03, 05:02 PM	Originally posted by Gez Finally, another reason to keep Orcus around is the guy is an artist. The sheer variety of demons and undead he created is amazing and unrivaled. You could fill a monster manual just with them. (But it would be pretty narrow in theme, I must admit.) Yeah but it would be fun for me! :)
Cthulhu 11-09-03, 05:14 PM	Most of the arguments here seem to hinge on Orcus needing to be a god of some sort in Forgotten Realms. I don't see why that has to be. So Ao maybe denied his petition to enter FR as a undeath god...big deal. He can still enter the Forgotten Realms as the DEMON PRINCE OF UNDEATH he has always been.
Zanan 11-09-03, 06:16 PM	Vendui! Originally posted by Nighttfall ... I am glad you can see it my way. Well, you got that wrong, for I see it MY way, of course. :smirk: Primeover003, I was referring to Core in terms of official 3E/RE D&D material available, even though TBoVD is not one of the three basic CORE rulebooks. Of that I am most certainly aware. There is no denying though that there are crossovers in FR and ... let's say standard setting material with regards to Orcus, Thanatos and Kiaransalee. TBoVD states that Orcus has reclaimed Thanatos as well as his palace and we know from Demihuman Deities that it was this very plane which the Revenancer took from him after she had killed the Demon Prince. It is pretty unfeasible that we can have Kia as a Lesser Goddess now being chased from Orcus' former realm if - under 3E rulings - she would have been even more powerful compared to the times when she killed Orcus. Thus, something "interesting" must have happened. Either, she had departed for distant shores because she found Thanatos no longer to her liking, or - as I predicted - Lolth's Silence has something to do with it. Anyway, as we continue to lack info to tackle this paradoxon successfully, I am happy leaving this field for others. Just remember though, that you are about to collect and put together a puzzle of which the pieces may never have been finished ...
Nighttfall 11-09-03, 07:37 PM	Originally posted by Cthulhu Most of the arguments here seem to hinge on Orcus needing to be a god of some sort in Forgotten Realms. I don't see why that has to be. So Ao maybe denied his petition to enter FR as a undeath god...big deal. He can still enter the Forgotten Realms as the DEMON PRINCE OF UNDEATH he has always been. Mostly because if you read the stories concerning Eliminster in Hell, it took a LOT of energy for just MYSTRA to fight Asmodeus. And while I'm not sure Orcus is in the same league, one MIGHT consider such evil forces akin to gods...and therefore should be able to grant spells and such. Zanan, maybe so, but at least we can agree to disagree on some level...and still respect each other.
Cthulhu 11-09-03, 08:13 PM	Even so, attacking a quasi-diety (most archdemons are at least level 0 right?) on his home plane (Asmodeus or Orcus) should be taxing for even a greater goddess. The Abyss or the Nine Hells isn't Mystra's stomping grounds. She should be having a tough time.
thalious 11-09-03, 08:26 PM	By the DDG, Gods of higher divine rank are fairly safe in attacking lesser ranks gods and demi gods. Thus Mystra should in essence be able to smack Orcus around with relative impunity and little true risk to herself.
Shemeska the Marauder 11-09-03, 09:06 PM	An Abyssal Lord, or an Archdevil, or other Archfiend that rules a layer of a lower plane is bound to that layer in the sense that you can literally treat that layer as their own domain much as a deity has its own domain upon an outer plane. Deities can affect most anything to their will inside their own planar domains. Archfiends can do nearly the same with an entire planar layer, sans perhaps the domains of deities that exist on that layer as well. While the Archfiend may not in many cases be an actual deity, on that planar layer they have a bevy of unique power that would make a greater deity pause and reconsider actually fighting them. Add in the Archfiend's control over the other fiends populating that layer and it becomes a humbling task for a deity to attempt to kill them alone. And besides, why risk it? The fiends and the powers generally speaking leave each other alone and don't interfere in oneanothers affairs.
thalious 11-09-03, 09:38 PM	Sorry to break it to you, but Archfiends and Demon Lords are no real threat to a True God. A true God can wipe the floor with a demon/devil horde and then slap the offending demon or devil around for being so stupid as to think they could win or even compete. As for the planar issue, Gods too have home planes, but they are not bound to them as demons or devils are. By older rules, a demon can be truly slain in their home plane. Not sure what the rules state now. Regardless, Gods are fairly safe from demons and devils unless the god happens to lower rank than their opponent.
Wooly Rupert 11-09-03, 09:51 PM	I don't recall where I saw it, but I saw someone in one thread say that Greenwood's fiction shouldn't be considered canon... I don't know if that's any kind of official stance, but I do find myself in agreement with it.
thalious 11-09-03, 10:00 PM	I don't follow greenwood like scripture. I am just going off my knowledge of the game as it is set up. Having read up on Orcus, Asmodeus, and others in the BoVD is what led me to my opinion. They are powerful and have some godly abilities, but are not True Gods, thus they must be very careful in their dealing with Gods. Orcus per the BoVD is the closest demon to becoming a True God, at present his is at best a demi god, unless your DM has ruled otherwise.
Shemeska the Marauder 11-09-03, 10:12 PM	Well, sorry to break it to you, but if all you're drawing on to shape your opinion is the BoVD, then you're woefully uninformed. Look at the wealth of material in 2e that defined the relationship of celestials/fiends with powers on the outer planes. You may not like what it says, considering most all of it runs counter to your opinions you've expressed so far. But its there.
thalious 11-09-03, 10:15 PM	sorry to rebreak it to you, but 2E is no longer valid as far as 3.whatever is concerned, thus my opinion stands.
Kuje31 11-09-03, 10:17 PM	Originally posted by thalious I don't follow greenwood like scripture. I am just going off my knowledge of the game as it is set up. Having read up on Orcus, Asmodeus, and others in the BoVD is what led me to my opinion. They are powerful and have some godly abilities, but are not True Gods, thus they must be very careful in their dealing with Gods. Orcus per the BoVD is the closest demon to becoming a True God, at present his is at best a demi god, unless your DM has ruled otherwise. Did you read this thread? Orcus is a LESSER deity, at least in FR, as per Faiths & Pantheons. He is not just a demon prince, he is also a deity and power in his own right.
Kuje31 11-09-03, 10:20 PM	Originally posted by thalious sorry to rebreak it to you, but 2E is no longer valid as far as 3.whatever is concerned, thus my opinion stands. And this is wrong, any and all 2e material from 2e is still used unless it is overwritten in 3/3.5 FR books. From the FR FAQ, 2nd page, left hand side, found on the WOTC site. Can old reference books for older versions of the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting still be used in the new version. Can we use, for example, the list of battles and legends from Fall of Myth Drannor boxed set or the maps from the City of Waterdeep boxed set? The vast majority of background material from older products (such as maps and historical details) is still valid with the new setting; if you find a conflict, the new book is the definitive source.
thalious 11-09-03, 10:22 PM	I have not read F&P, but I'll take your word for it. Bout time Orcus got a promotion. I stand corrected on the Orcus part of my opinion. I had made Orcus a demi-god IMC, If Orcus succeeds in his mission(i.e. the PC fail to stop him) Orcus will become a Lesser God IMC too.
thalious 11-09-03, 10:29 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 Can old reference books for older versions of the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting still be used in the new version. Can we use, for example, the list of battles and legends from Fall of Myth Drannor boxed set or the maps from the City of Waterdeep boxed set? I ran homebrew worlds from 1E through 2E. A DM can use any info and reference for their campaign as they see fit. I just started running FR campaign since last year, so my XP and realms knowledge is admittedly lacking, but I got to start somewhere and since I don't have Older FR info or sources and no intention of buying any, I go off of 3E info. :angel:
Wooly Rupert 11-09-03, 10:42 PM	Originally posted by thalious I ran homebrew worlds from 1E through 2E. A DM can use any info and reference for their campaign as they see fit. I just started running FR campaign since last year, so my XP and realms knowledge is admittedly lacking, but I got to start somewhere and since I don't have Older FR info or sources and no intention of buying any, I go off of 3E info. :angel: You can download some of the stuff for free from the website.
Kuje31 11-09-03, 10:43 PM	Originally posted by thalious I have not read F&P, but I'll take your word for it. Bout time Orcus got a promotion. I stand corrected on the Orcus part of my opinion. I had made Orcus a demi-god IMC, If Orcus succeeds in his mission(i.e. the PC fail to stop him) Orcus will become a Lesser God IMC too. Aye, sorry didn't mean to yell at you then. :). Just seemed like you didn't read the other half of the thread.
thalious 11-09-03, 10:44 PM	I did DL Volo's guide to all thing magical. What are the best ones that are still applicable to the 3E FR?
Kuje31 11-09-03, 10:44 PM	Originally posted by thalious I ran homebrew worlds from 1E through 2E. A DM can use any info and reference for their campaign as they see fit. I just started running FR campaign since last year, so my XP and realms knowledge is admittedly lacking, but I got to start somewhere and since I don't have Older FR info or sources and no intention of buying any, I go off of 3E info. :angel: This is true enough, but there is also TSR/WOTC canon, which is not the same as my or your FR canon. :)
thalious 11-09-03, 10:46 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 Aye, sorry didn't mean to yell at you then. :). Just seemed like you didn't read the other half of the thread. No prob hombre. A lil bit of heated debate helps to keep me warm here in the near freezing north.
Nighttfall 11-10-03, 12:51 AM	Thanks Kujie. Thal, I don't take umbrage with your opinion. Just would have liked you to read the previous mentions in the thread. Otherwise, it's all good.
Zanan 11-10-03, 03:55 AM	[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nighttfall Zanan, maybe so, but at least we can agree to disagree on some level...and still respect each other. Well, rest assured. I tend to respect any other poster and his or her opinion, even though it might not sound that way sometimes. :smirk: You and Kuje have valid points with regard to Orcus, yet, please remember that there is very little info about the lad in 3E/RE-land and I for one wouldn't press on that topic too much. Including the notion that 3E material overrules AD&D stuff ... and there are about two lines of info on the lad compared to umpteen tons of AD&D sourcebooks. I have yet to see any errata on F&P (and they are of course needed) or RoF as well as any description about the guy's return to a place where Ao says who can become a god (again) and who don't. You live upon the assumption (as far as I see it) that if it is written in a sourcebook (F&P & UE) the guy must defo be back and thus all other premisses are fullfilled even though nothing has been published about this yet. Maybe so. I tend not to fall to this too early. There will be (I hope) a more detailed description about Orcus' return within Realmspace and I will wait till this is published before going on about the valifity of sourcebooks, editions and all. Maybe someone should ask the BoVD-authors why Orcus came back? Or the Wizards, given the apparent interest in this topic, spill a few beans ...
thalious 11-10-03, 05:03 AM	Originally posted by Nighttfall Thal, I don't take umbrage with your opinion. Just would have liked you to read the previous mentions in the thread. Otherwise, it's all good. I read the thread. My knowledge of the FR and Orcus was 0 until read this thread, my knowledge of Orcus, Gods and their divine placement is rather secure, but there is always room to learn more. It's all good. :angel:
Gez 11-10-03, 11:39 AM	A house-rule that I like is that archfiends gets +1 Divine Rank when inside their ruled layer. So, a DR 0 demon prince would still be DR 1 when at home.
Will Brandiman 11-10-03, 11:51 AM	It looks to me that the designers made a bit of a **** up. They've even admitted it themselves. So it's really down to everyone to decide how best to sort it out in their own games. Rest assured that if WOTC came up with some sort of "official" explanation there would still be loads of people complaining that this contradicts such and such source. IMC Orcus and co are the equivalent of DR1 but with slightly higher DR on their home planes. Orcus was indeed killed by Kiaransalee (sp?) who was I believe a demigod at the time (and therefore probably a fair match for Orcus at home. But, as befits the demon prince of the undead, Orcus soon arose again and eventually reclaimed his throne. After all, if liches can do it, why can't Orcus? Kiaransalee was driven off but not killed. Her rise to lesser god coincides with Llolths silence and these 2 facts seem to be too large a coincidence to be unrelated. Of course this does mean that Orcus needs to watch his back.
Nighttfall 11-10-03, 06:19 PM	Originally posted by Zanan Maybe someone should ask the BoVD-authors why Orcus came back? Or the Wizards, given the apparent interest in this topic, spill a few beans ... Monte was mostly in charge of BoVD. So you'll have to take that up with him. As for Wizards...well I have feeling they are more confused than some others. Regardless, while we do disagree Zanan, I'm reasonable sure Orcus will withstand the scrunity of such things. But again that's just me.
Enteri 11-10-03, 08:46 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 Did you read this thread? Orcus is a LESSER deity, at least in FR, as per Faiths & Pantheons. He is not just a demon prince, he is also a deity and power in his own right. This might have already been mentioned and I just missed it, but do you think you could post a page number or frame of reference? I've been looking through my copy of F&P and can't find any mention of Orcus. ...... nevermind. There he is in the appendix under Monster Deities.
Kuje31 11-10-03, 09:11 PM	Originally posted by Enteri This might have already been mentioned and I just missed it, but do you think you could post a page number or frame of reference? I've been looking through my copy of F&P and can't find any mention of Orcus. ...... nevermind. There he is in the appendix under Monster Deities. :).
Nighttfall 11-11-03, 03:07 AM	As always, thanks Kuje.
Kuje31 11-11-03, 03:09 AM	Originally posted by Nighttfall As always, thanks Kuje. Not a problem. Maybe some thing about this might be written up in the PG's but if not, then it doesn't matter since there are still two books for 3/3.5 where it says he is a living deity in FR.
Herr Doktor 11-11-03, 12:06 PM	Just a thought on the whole Archfiends can manipulate their planar layer just as a deity can in his/her domain. In El in Hell I seem to remember Asmodeus being able to shake the ground of Avernus and such. Can the deeper lords effect the upper planes of hell as well?
Shemeska the Marauder 11-11-03, 01:15 PM	Well I'd say no, except in the case of Asmodeus who has repeatedly demonstrated his ability to toy with and manipulate all of the 9 Hells with utter mastery. Heck, one of the Lords of the 9 is held nearly powerless and immoble within an iceberg; and another had his form permenantly altered by Asmodeus as punishment for a failed rebellion during the Reckoning. Depth of layer in Baator, except for the 9th has little relation to the power of that layer's Lord or Lady. Exempting Asmo from the equation, it's debatable if the Lord of the 7th, 8th, or 2nd is the most personally powerful. Baalzebul, Mephistopheles, and Dispater respectively. And I frankly wouldn't use Elminster in Hell as any canonical guide to Baator...
Nighttfall 11-11-03, 04:29 PM	Shem, maybe so. But I prefer to use it as kind of a reference.
Nighttfall 12-13-03, 01:06 AM	Bump for boredom...and FOR ORCUS! :b: :b: :devil: :b: :b:
Zanan 12-13-03, 04:07 AM	Well, I assume it is time to go to Thanatos myself and lay that fiend-thing to its eternal rest before Nightfall and his cohorts give up, aye? :nonono:
Nighttfall 12-13-03, 09:04 AM	You can try Zanan. But I doubt you'll succeed in laying Orcus to rest. We won't let you! :devil:
Zanan 12-13-03, 10:50 AM	Originally posted by Nighttfall You can try Zanan. But I doubt you'll succeed in laying Orcus to rest. We won't let you! :devil: Well, THAT is a question more worth discussing than all this Orcus-talk. Which question? How you want to stop me of course! :D
Nighttfall 12-13-03, 12:29 PM	Simple. I hire out extra help from beyond the Realms. Not far Realms but the Scarred Lands! Vangal has some nice guys I can use. And of course I might use the Dark Tirumivere from Creature Collection 3. (Pride Daemon, Anger Demon and Fear Devil.) Course this talk prompts me into saying Orcus might use some of these guys IF he felt they'd work for him. ;)