| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Majorafire7708-04-05, 07:37 PM | I know that many of the players on the Eberron boards dislike how in Forgotten Realms, there are many Epic "Good Guys" and how the PCs never seem to do anything really important until they're level 30+. How are players going to feel that anything was achieved during the course of an adventure (or a campaign, for that matter) if they know that Elminster could've warped in, unleased some Epic kickass spells, and then warped out, which would've saved tons of time. If Halaster Blackcloak feels like destroying the world, there is absolutely nothing the PCs can do about it until they're well into the epic levels. What I'm seeking is a decent explanation from an FR DM who can tell me how they can run a fun and worthwhile campaign without having the PCs go into epic levels. Having the PCs go into dungeon after abandoned dungeon is alright, but it doesn't make for a good campaign imho. What do your PCs do in the lower levels? Is there anything fun, or do you need to start an FR campaign at level 15 to even get into something remotely exciting? |
| Kuje3108-04-05, 08:01 PM | Considering I've DM'd in FR since 2e and run non epic games, I've never had this problem. Elminster, and the other high levels, can not take care of the hundreds+ plots, and events, that exist in one month let alone in the rest of the months. Low levels work just fine in FR, and there are more low to mid level NPC's then there are high level ones. |
| Darrian08-04-05, 08:02 PM | I know what you are saying about the high level good guys who could save the world in FR. I really hate them too. However, as a DM, I limit access to them. My players have never met them and they are 18th level now, they will meet a few in the future though. In the lower levels, I focus my players on what is going on in the immediate vicinity of the party and keep them focused on the small picture. The party that I am currently DMing has done many things that have had some impact in the Realms and I think they did not feel that Elminster and the other Justice League of Faerun members should have done it for them. Darrian |
| Faraer08-04-05, 08:31 PM | Majorafire77, First, there are more 'epic' villains and neutrals than heroes. And approximately none of those who see things the way you describe have actually experienced this 'problem'. That tells you right off that this is something that a few people like to say, rather than a genuine difficulty that affects campaigns. Players do not know that 'Elminster could've warped in' because, as Kuje says, there are a thousand other demands on his time even assuming that he knows about this particular threat and deems it best to counter it in the long term and in the light of his many burdens -- and even so, if it's a serious threat it's many-layered and -tentacled, not something that can be stopped by simple intervention. But there's a legitimate difference here, and scope for preference, in that the Realms has developed strata of the mighty and Eberron deliberately leaves the field relatively clear so that PCs can become movers and shakers more easily. Obviously, neither approach is objectively 'better', and it should be no mystery that one doesn't have to be one of the most powerful guys around to take part in exciting and worthwhile stories and adventures -- otherwise all of fiction would be filled with prime ministers, corporate masterminds, superheroes, and gods. That is, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser are important characters and Sheelba and Ningauble aren't -- in other words, define 'important'. The Realms is about people and their interaction, a world of myriad stories in which every single person matters, there are no 'minor characters', and world-destroying plots are generically out of place (Realms villains don't want to destroy the world) and not needed as cheap gimmicks to make characters, and players, care. Certain novels' Realms-Shattering Events are widely disliked by those who play there. Nevertheless, character level is only one simplistic measure of what an individual -- let alone a group -- can achieve. The best answer to your question is Ed Greenwood's long-running Knights of Myth Drannor campaign, soon to be the subject of a trilogy of novels, in which the generally mid-level Knights succeed by camaraderie, wits, bravery, and many-layered intrigue and manipulation to defeat their foes -- in game sessions almost all of us can only envy for fun and excitement. |
| Starchaserva08-04-05, 08:35 PM | I agree, just because people like Elminster ever exist, doesn't mean that they are going to get involved in every little conflict. They just don't have the time. If you are running a game with low level characters, you don't need Halaster to fight agaisnt. Hell, elminster is there to make sure to keep Halaster in line, if you want to think about that. A good monster fight doesn't need to involve the Tarrasqe. If players are having a hard time feeling like they've accomplished something, have them save a town. For example, a game I played in involved rooting out some drow caused corruption in a small town, and once we stopped the underdwellers, it felt pretty good. You don't have to save an entire nation or the continent, or be involved in some epic conflict to feel like you made a difference. |
| Alac Luin08-05-05, 11:05 PM | The idea that Faerun is all epic is greatly exagerated. IMO, the same thing will happen to Eberron as time goes on. |
| Darrian08-06-05, 01:38 AM | I am not sure I agree with Alac. As long as the designers of Eberron do not make the same mistake that the designer of FR did and include his own super epic babies (CHOSEN), then the game will not reach the epic density that FR has. Darrian |
| BrianCritchley08-06-05, 01:59 AM | ed included the chosen as back story characters, not as super human beings who set everything right. sides it depends. do you have to have a super world changing plot to make a game fun? |
| Darrian08-06-05, 02:18 AM | Brian I was just replying to Alac's point that Eberron will have as many Epic characters as FR in time. Why Ed added the chosen to FR was not the point. I was just pointing out that if the chosen were left out, the number and need for so many other epic NPC's would be lessened greatly. Darrian |
| Kuje3108-06-05, 02:26 AM | Brian I was just replying to Alac's point that Eberron will have as many Epic characters as FR in time. Why Ed added the chosen to FR was not the point. I was just pointing out that if the chosen were left out, the number and need for so many other epic NPC's would be lessened greatly. Darrian How so? More then half of the high level characters in FR are evil. Thus the Chosen, and other good NPCs/PCs, balance them. |
| warlockco08-06-05, 02:48 AM | Brian I was just replying to Alac's point that Eberron will have as many Epic characters as FR in time. Why Ed added the chosen to FR was not the point. I was just pointing out that if the chosen were left out, the number and need for so many other epic NPC's would be lessened greatly. Darrian If the Chosen are supposed to be the super children out to save the world, then why have they yet to make an appearance in the series dealting with the Dragon Rage? |
| BrianCritchley08-06-05, 03:50 AM | epic NPCs means for epic PCs. as frankly an Epic PC in ebberon.. what would he do? do do anything you'd have to basicly destroy the system, FR allows for epic level chars to thrive in contiueing adventures |
| Kuje3108-06-05, 11:12 AM | If the Chosen are supposed to be the super children out to save the world, then why have they yet to make an appearance in the series dealting with the Dragon Rage? Furthermore, why didn't Myth Drannor survive. Why didn't Elminster's realm survive. Why did other nations the Chosen have thier hands in survive. Etc. The Chosen have gone through, and seen more, death, destruction, mistakes, etc, then even some elves! Yeah, they really truly save the world. |
| Zanan08-06-05, 12:15 PM | Maybe the Eberronians didn't mean Epic, but Highly Magical? What keeps the Realms save is that a) the deities have quite an influence on what is going on and who is allowed to go over the top, and b ) the villains are usually content with killing one another, or at least vying for each others' powers. Apart from that ... keep in mind the meta-gaming. It is not that the Realms were created to make sense to each end everyone, but to present fun and hundreds of hours of gameplay to each variety of player. While there is some sort of red line running through history and politics, connecting things and all, the main purpose is to present as much as possible to as many as possible. |
| bitter thorn08-06-05, 01:18 PM | I know that many of the players on the Eberron boards dislike how in Forgotten Realms, there are many Epic "Good Guys" and how the PCs never seem to do anything really important until they're level 30+. How are players going to feel that anything was achieved during the course of an adventure (or a campaign, for that matter) if they know that Elminster could've warped in, unleased some Epic kickass spells, and then warped out, which would've saved tons of time. If Halaster Blackcloak feels like destroying the world, there is absolutely nothing the PCs can do about it until they're well into the epic levels. What I'm seeking is a decent explanation from an FR DM who can tell me how they can run a fun and worthwhile campaign without having the PCs go into epic levels. Having the PCs go into dungeon after abandoned dungeon is alright, but it doesn't make for a good campaign imho. What do your PCs do in the lower levels? Is there anything fun, or do you need to start an FR campaign at level 15 to even get into something remotely exciting? I know it sounds simple, but it's all about how you structure the game and keep the spotlight on the PCs. IMG the party has been going for a year and a half (RT), and they have encountered zero epic level NPCs. They are currently in the process of resolving "Into the Dragons Lair". They will have a major impact on a very important kingdom in the Realms. They are ~ 12th level. You populate the game with the NPCs the characters interact with, and this sets the tone and power level in YOUR game. I, personally, don't care for epic games, but some folks love them. I try to avoid the trap of different styles of play being "wrong or right". In short make the setting-dynamic fun for YOUR game; just make sure that the group understands the tone being set. |
| Kin-Kaal V'ryce08-06-05, 01:50 PM | You also have to look at how those "epic" NPC really acts toward situations. Usually instead of acting on their own, they tend to find someone else who has the potential and necessary skills (read: PCs) and send them out to deal with the problem. They then sit back and give the occasional bit of advice or help. You also have to look at the fact that most of the uber-epic NPCs also have other things that they are required to deal with. Kelban needs to deal with being a Lord of Waterdeep, Alustrial needs to deal with running Silverymoon, The Simbul deals with Aglarond, etc... Yes there are the occasional wanderin epic hero such as Drizzt but even he is mostly concerned with dealing with threats to Mithral Hall and from the drow. They have other responsibilities and can't always be rushing off to save the world. Its much easier for them to find some adventurers to go off and do it for them. |
| Majorafire7708-06-05, 02:04 PM | The idea that Faerun is all epic is greatly exagerated. IMO, the same thing will happen to Eberron as time goes on. The day I see an Elminster-type character in Eberron is the day I stop playing in that setting unless they pull it off perfectly. Noone wants to see Eberron become some type of Magi-techy FR. By just looking at the Eberron boards (such as here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=475063)), you can see how many people are disgusted by high-level NPCs being the heroes of a campaign instead of the PCs. I honestly forget if there are any Epic NPCs in Eberron at all. In short make the setting-dynamic fun for YOUR game; just make sure that the group understands the tone being set. I agree, but if you run an Eberron campaign the way it's presented in the sourcebooks and an FR campaign in the same way, Eberron would seem to rely a lot more on the PCs than the FR campaign will. NPCs will actually care about Eberron PCs, where the level 15 city watch captain in FR doesn't give a hoot if your level 4 PCs are running around or not. epic NPCs means for epic PCs. as frankly an Epic PC in ebberon.. what would he do? do do anything you'd have to basicly destroy the system, FR allows for epic level chars to thrive in contiueing adventures If I understand you right, you're saying the Eberron couldn't handle epic PCs. That is a load of bullcrap. Among others, here are a few of the things that can be used to feul an epic-level campaign in Eberron: Lords of Dust Vol and the Mark of Death The Dreaming Dark The Chamber, the prophecy, and the Argonessen Dragons Daelkyr What's the difference? Eberron doesn't have Elminster and his Chosen friends to help the PCs when they're getting :censored:ed up the ass by a dragon who thinks that they're trying to interfere with the prophecy. |
| Faraer08-06-05, 02:25 PM | By just looking at the Eberron boards (such as here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=475063)), you can see how many people are disgusted by high-level NPCs being the heroes of a campaign instead of the PCs.They're disgusted by the idea that that's the case -- a notion which exists only in their heads, not the Realms sources, not any of their actual experience or campaigns. I've never once heard of a Realms campaign, even an obviously terribly DMed one, in which players felt that way. It's nothing but prejudice, and simply isn't a problem in practice, only in misconceived theory. Psionycx's borderline-libellous characterization of Ed Greenwood in that thread, by the way, is farcically wrong. |
| Majorafire7708-06-05, 04:50 PM | Hmm. So apparantly all of the Eberron fanboys (including myself, I'll be honest) made up this idea of high-level NPCs screwing over the characters instead of actually seeing it happen in a campaign. These message boards are kind of like my highschool... What about other high-level characters in the realms? It seems like many people have PC classes there, and it seems like everyone is an adventurer, making the life of the PCs the same as the life of almost anyone else? Is that true, or is that another rumor that has sprung up somewhere with no factual evidence? |
| Mr. Wilson08-06-05, 05:07 PM | There are millions of people in FR, the one's that get drawn up are the one's most likely to be run across by PC's, and thusly are most likely to have PC classes. My main problem with Eberron is that there aren't enough high level "good" NPC's to balance out the evil ones. It's unrealistic, IMHO. |
| Demetrios08-06-05, 05:11 PM | The day I see an Elminster-type character in Eberron is the day I stop playing in that setting unless they pull it off perfectly. Noone wants to see Eberron become some type of Magi-techy FR. By just looking at the Eberron boards (such as here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=475063)), you can see how many people are disgusted by high-level NPCs being the heroes of a campaign instead of the PCs. I honestly forget if there are any Epic NPCs in Eberron at all. How exactly are the high-level NPCs the heroes of the campaign? You keep saying this, but don't explain how it is so. In 99% of FR campaigns, they are nothing more than background color. They are no more the heroes of a FR campaign than the rulers of the Five Nations are the heroes of an Eberron campaign. What's the difference? Eberron doesn't have Elminster and his Chosen friends to help the PCs when they're getting :censored:ed up the ass by a dragon who thinks that they're trying to interfere with the prophecy. Any DM who did that is a very, very poor DM indeed. Virtually every FR DM would allow the dragon to simply eat the PCs as a result of being incredibly stupid and have them roll up new characters. And, as a DM, I have pretty much done that on occasion. Why do you feel that Elminster is going to pop in and save the heroes every time they get in trouble? Because honestly it doesn't work like that! To bring up the same parallel, do the rulers of the Five Nations pop in and save Eberron PCs every time they get in trouble? |
| Demetrios08-06-05, 05:21 PM | Hmm. So apparantly all of the Eberron fanboys (including myself, I'll be honest) made up this idea of high-level NPCs screwing over the characters instead of actually seeing it happen in a campaign. These message boards are kind of like my highschool... What about other high-level characters in the realms? It seems like many people have PC classes there, and it seems like everyone is an adventurer, making the life of the PCs the same as the life of almost anyone else? Is that true, or is that another rumor that has sprung up somewhere with no factual evidence? Yep. The population breakdown of some of the towns in the setting will quickly show that to be false. On page 24 of Silver Marches the population breakdown of the town of Nesme shows that out of a population of 1,966, 1,526 are 1st-level commoners, 121 more are just higher level commoners, and 197 have levels in other NPC classes (mostly experts and warriors), for a total of 1844 with NPC classes. That's well over 90% of the population. And that's pretty typical of the setting. |
| Majorafire7708-06-05, 05:30 PM | How exactly are the high-level NPCs the heroes of the campaign? You keep saying this, but don't explain how it is so. In 99% of FR campaigns, they are nothing more than background color. They are no more the heroes of a FR campaign than the rulers of the Five Nations are the heroes of an Eberron campaign. Any DM who did that is a very, very poor DM indeed. Virtually every FR DM would allow the dragon to simply eat the PCs as a result of being incredibly stupid and have them roll up new characters. And, as a DM, I have pretty much done that on occasion. Why do you feel that Elminster is going to pop in and save the heroes every time they get in trouble? Because honestly it doesn't work like that! To bring up the same parallel, do the rulers of the Five Nations pop in and save Eberron PCs every time they get in trouble? :rofl: Well, let's see here. Aurala can't because she is a level 8 aristocrat. Boranel can't because he's a level 3 aristocrat/level 8 fighter. Cyre got blasted a few years before the campaign started, and Oargev (the leader of New Cyre) is an aristocrat 3/fighter 1. Kaius can't come out in sunlight, and even if he could he's still only an aristocrat 2/fighter 11. Even if he could come and help the PCs, they would want to kill him afterwards for assorted reasons ;) Jaela Daran is a level 3 cleric when she's anywhere but Flamekeep. Are any of them even close to the Fighter 1/Rogue 2/Cleric 3/Wizard 24/Archmage 5 behemoth known as Elminster? NO Can any of them warp anywhere even if they tried? NO Do you know jack**** about Eberron? Why the hell do you think I started this thread if Eberron plays exactly the same way that I thought FR did? There are millions of people in FR, the one's that get drawn up are the one's most likely to be run across by PC's, and thusly are most likely to have PC classes. My main problem with Eberron is that there aren't enough high level "good" NPC's to balance out the evil ones. It's unrealistic, IMHO. Geez. It seems like you don't know much about Eberron either (though I shouldn't complain because I don't know much about FR). In Eberron, if there's something evil and epic going on that might have anything to do with the prophecy at all, the dragons are on it. Demons come through a gate from another plane? Dragons lock 'em in Khyber. Half-Dragon psycho develops a dragonmark? Dragons kill her family, turn her into a lich, and say :censored: you. Quori from another plane come to invade Eberron? Giants use dragon magic to throw their plane off its orbit (planes orbit around Eberron in the setting), and then the Giants get wiped out by the Dragons themselves by using magic that is too powerful for them to be playing around with. PCs getting killed in the bowels of Sharn by a Mind Flayer and his cultists? Dragons don't come because they don't give a :censored: about inferior beings like that. |
| Faraer08-06-05, 05:38 PM | Hmm. So apparantly all of the Eberron fanboys (including myself, I'll be honest) made up this idea of high-level NPCs screwing over the characters instead of actually seeing it happen in a campaign.Yes, apparently. None of them have mentioned any screwing over actually happening on that thread, and while it's obviously possible in a badly DMed campaign, I've never heard of an instance anywhere else either. There are certainly, in any case, many more instances of Realms campaigns working without any such difficulty. If the players specifically want to be the baddest guys around relatively easily -- to be Superman, to take an example from that thread -- then yes, the Realms isn't the setting for them (unless the DM wants to change it or start with high-level PCs). If they want to be adventurers with their own interests, local fame and stature, occasional involvement with grand doings, with the prospect of joining the ranks of the mighty in time (and remember that the Realms does not have a plethora of documented high-level adventuring companies, and bands can often accomplish more than a single higher-level character with minions, which is actually one of the themes of the setting), the existence of high-level characters elsewhere isn't a problem. Not all players want to dominate; for those that do, the Realms is a challenging setting to attempt it. But I'm not criticizing Eberron's approach at all. Yes, "everyone is an adventurer" is another rumour that's sprung up without factual evidence.* The incidence of characters with PC class levels is higher than the 1% assumed by 1st edition AD&D, but still a small minority. There are lots of documented characters with PC class levels, but obviously the sources talk more about such characters because villains and heroes are more exciting in campaigns. The sources don't attempt to represent everyone equally, but even so they're less representative than they would be because editors, especially the novel editors, are quick to cut material about ordinary folk as "boring". There are PC-classed characters who run shops or inns/taverns in the Volo's Guides, but again these are the ones who are of note, not who are typical, though that's an understandable misreading, as is overestimating the density of powerful characters through ignoring the scale of the maps and the millions of unnamed farmers, labourers and tradespeople. As well as the population breakdowns Demetrios mentions, we have one source which describes everyone in a particular place rather than the "highlights", the census of Shadowdale in the 1987 campaign set, which includes no adventurers other than three powerful guardians who live there (Shadowdale is noted as exceptional in this regard) and a couple of promising youngsters. * There are lots of these. "The World of Greyhawk is boring." "Ed Greenwood is a munchkin/pervert." "The Realms is only for powergamers." "Eberron is only for powergamers." "D&D players are socially maladjusted." It's not something unusual. |
| Majorafire7708-06-05, 05:42 PM | I guess it makes sense that the distribution of PC classes in FR is about the same (though probably a bit more) than the distribution of PC classes in Eberron. |
| Demetrios08-06-05, 05:46 PM | :rofl: Well, let's see here. Aurala can't because she is a level 8 aristocrat. Boranel can't because he's a level 3 aristocrat/level 8 fighter. Cyre got blasted a few years before the campaign started, and Oargev (the leader of New Cyre) is an aristocrat 3/fighter 1. Kaius can't come out in sunlight, and even if he could he's still only an aristocrat 2/fighter 11. Even if he could come and help the PCs, they would want to kill him afterwards for assorted reasons ;) Jaela Daran is a level 3 cleric when she's anywhere but Flamekeep. Are any of them even close to the Fighter 1/Rogue 2/Cleric 3/Wizard 24/Archmage 5 behemoth known as Elminster? NO Can any of them warp anywhere even if they tried? NO Do you know jack**** about Eberron? Why the hell do you think I started this thread if Eberron plays exactly the same way that I thought FR did? You missed the point entirely. They don't do it because they are too busy with other things to deal with such minor and mundane matters. The same with the high-level NPCs in the Realms. And I've played Eberron, so I do know about the setting. No need to be rude about it either, it definitely lowers the level of the conversation and doesn't show you in the best light either. So anyway, why did you start this thread? All our counter-arguments don't seem to make much difference, so it really doesn't seem to serve any real purpose other than to stir up trouble and unnecessary bad feelings between the fans of two settings that should peacefully coexist. But surely a polite person such as yourself wouldn't want to do that, would you? |
| Majorafire7708-06-05, 06:04 PM | You missed the point entirely. They don't do it because they are too busy with other things to deal with such minor and mundane matters. The same with the high-level NPCs in the Realms. And I've played Eberron, so I do know about the setting. No need to be rude about it either, it definitely lowers the level of the conversation and doesn't show you in the best light either. Yes, from that post it does look like I missed the point. I really dont' see how you could've played in Eberron and how you could've known about the setting when you effectively said that the leaders of the Five Nations (Four Nations now) = Elminster and friends. I got the point entirely. In fact, I had posted that I had gotten the point before you posted your thoughts as well as your obviously informed *cough* comment about the leaders of the Five Nations. So anyway, why did you start this thread? All our counter-arguments don't seem to make much difference, so it really doesn't seem to serve any real purpose other than to stir up trouble and unnecessary bad feelings between the fans of two settings that should peacefully coexist. But surely a polite person such as yourself wouldn't want to do that, would you? This discussion is over. I had already agreed with everyone on this board that the thought that high-level NPCs interferes with gameplay is a myth. I'm not trying to stir up bad feelings, I'm trying to get information, which I have already gotten (see the quotes I've posted below admitting that you and your FR friends are correct and me and my Eberron friends are wrong). However if someone such as yourself comes in and tries to point out to me that Five Nation leaders = Elminster and friends, I get ******, because that is crap. Hmm. So apparantly all of the Eberron fanboys (including myself, I'll be honest) made up this idea of high-level NPCs screwing over the characters instead of actually seeing it happen in a campaign. These message boards are kind of like my highschool... I guess it makes sense that the distribution of PC classes in FR is about the same (though probably a bit more) than the distribution of PC classes in Eberron. ^Do you see these quotes? That means that the conversation is over. It seems like you made your latest post just to annoy me. But surely a polite person such as yourself wouldn't want to do that, would you? |
| Alac Luin08-06-05, 06:46 PM | Brian I was just replying to Alac's point that Eberron will have as many Epic characters as FR in time. The power creep has already started. People have complained on the Eberron boards about this, starting with the Sharn book. As every novel and accessory comes out, there will be slightly more and more of this power creep. FR has had 20+ years of this, not that it bothers me. This power creep does not have to include Epic characters to make things more difficult for low level characters. Another point, what is meant by "low level characters"? We all may have different ideas on this. 1st level? Heck even in Eberron 1st level characters are nobodies doing other people's bidding. 4th level? Well, in Eberron they may just be starting to make a name for themselves. Same in FR. Look at the new adventure "Sons of Grummish" set in the Realms. 7th level? Well, actually in both worlds they are now actually becoming a force to be reckoned with, although this group will not destroy some of the epic baddies, Zass Tam would take notice if a group of this power moved into his area similar to how Vol would take notice. This is actually getting into established mid level characters, so ends the discussion on "low level characters". A few funny points, FR "magitech" and Eberron isn't? Most would say it is the other way around. If Eliminster and the chosen are the issue, don't use them. I don't. It is bad DMing to rely on them. Are they still an issue because a few novels have them? Well, this goes back to my first point, as more novels come out more heroic characters will help the power creep in Eberron. |
| GothicDan08-06-05, 07:14 PM | God, threads like this make me laugh. My favorite Prime Material setting is Dragonlance. That's right, folks, Dragonlance. 2E style, mind you, none of this 5th Age BS. It is pretty much the lowest-magic setting out of them all (though I cannot speak for Eberron). In the fairly detailed, entire history of the setting, Epic characters can be collected in one handful. Does this mean that I think FR is bad? No. It's made for a different type of place. What's the point in going into a setting/message board and complaining about an aspect of a setting which you are already aware of, without actually knowing all of the reasons for the setting being set up in such a way? When you go to the grocery store, do you get upset when they do not sell clothing? |
| Alac Luin08-06-05, 07:26 PM | When you go to the grocery store, do you get upset when they do not sell clothing? I only shop at super wal-mart, I got it all there. :P |
| GothicDan08-06-05, 07:30 PM | And the quality shows. ;) (Yes, I shop at Wal-mart at times. I would not if I had more money.) |
| PoeticJustice08-06-05, 08:00 PM | High level NPCs persoanlly aren't a problem with me. I don't think they're necessary, even for backgorund color, and at times they can distract or thieve PCs of a more memorable adventure, but hey, I can deal. My problem with FR is that its so goshdraned hard to break into. Seriously, I've sat in Borders a dozen times, for hours on end, FRCS in lap, to get a handle o the setting. Finding a starting point in Eberron is easy, as there always seems to be something melodramatic going on that simply screams: THIS IS AN ADVENTURE WAITING TO HAPPEN! WHY AREN'T YOU THERE ALREADY! DO IT NOW! I read FR for hours, and nothing like that pops out. I love realmslore, love the whole ancient empires thing, but all of Toril just seems so...settled. As if there's nothing really earthshaking going on. No plots to kill the king or mad wizard inventing a doomsday device or something like the Mournland to crawl around in. It's just people going about their business, living, eating, trading, that kind of thing. It's too much work for me to pull something totally spontaneously out of that kind of doldrum. And, as a player, it all seems to run together while Eberron remains distinct. Maybe its because on Eberron they tried to make things over the top and went for something different in the Realms. Or maybe I'm ADD. Am I wrong? I'd really like to know what you all find attractive about the setting. If you've read all of this, thank you, I appreciate it. |
| warlockco08-06-05, 08:07 PM | Is it me or does this thread seem to be fishing..... for something? |
| Alac Luin08-06-05, 08:33 PM | I read FR for hours, and nothing like that pops out. I love realmslore, love the whole ancient empires thing, but all of Toril just seems so...settled. I can relate, I felt like this also, at one point in time. As if there's nothing really earthshaking going on. No plots to kill the king or mad wizard inventing a doomsday device or something like the Mournland to crawl around in. It's just people going about their business, living, eating, trading, that kind of thing. It's too much work for me to pull something totally spontaneously out of that kind of doldrum. And, as a player, it all seems to run together while Eberron remains distinct. Maybe its because on Eberron they tried to make things over the top and went for something different in the Realms. Or maybe I'm ADD. Am I wrong? I'd really like to know what you all find attractive about the setting. If you've read all of this, thank you, I appreciate it. I have to disagree, there are plots to kill/ usurp the child king of Cormyr. There are plots to remove the leader of Agrolond. Molurand and Uthor are involved in a war. Zents are attempting to take over Hillsfar (rightful leader replaced by twin brother). Speaking of Zents, there is that Zent "civil war thing" (western cyric worshipers vs. eastern Bane worshipers.) Mad wizards? Red wizards, the Beast Lord (not Malar), Arcane Brotherhood, the Realms has mad wizards in droves. Mournlands? Ever hear of Myth Drannor? The Anuroch Desert? Scores of other fallen empires some with chaotic magic, some not. I've barely been able to scrach the surface of what the realms holds. |
| Demetrios08-06-05, 08:37 PM | High level NPCs persoanlly aren't a problem with me. I don't think they're necessary, even for backgorund color, and at times they can distract or thieve PCs of a more memorable adventure, but hey, I can deal. My problem with FR is that its so goshdraned hard to break into. Seriously, I've sat in Borders a dozen times, for hours on end, FRCS in lap, to get a handle o the setting. Finding a starting point in Eberron is easy, as there always seems to be something melodramatic going on that simply screams: THIS IS AN ADVENTURE WAITING TO HAPPEN! WHY AREN'T YOU THERE ALREADY! DO IT NOW! I read FR for hours, and nothing like that pops out. I love realmslore, love the whole ancient empires thing, but all of Toril just seems so...settled. As if there's nothing really earthshaking going on. No plots to kill the king or mad wizard inventing a doomsday device or something like the Mournland to crawl around in. It's just people going about their business, living, eating, trading, that kind of thing. It's too much work for me to pull something totally spontaneously out of that kind of doldrum. And, as a player, it all seems to run together while Eberron remains distinct. Maybe its because on Eberron they tried to make things over the top and went for something different in the Realms. Or maybe I'm ADD. Am I wrong? I'd really like to know what you all find attractive about the setting. If you've read all of this, thank you, I appreciate it. Huh? For years a subset of FR fandom have complained about the continual RSE ("Realms Shaking Events") that happen every two or three years in the setting. Since the setting first came out and the timeline advanced we've had: 1358 DR - the Time of Troubles. The gods walk the Realms in avatar form, many attacking each other. Can't get much more earthshaking than that! 1360 DR - the Horde invasion. A group of Mongol-esque invaders attack and lay waste to substantial portions of the eastern Realms. A huge army is gathered in the western Realms and they go to war against the Horde. 1361 DR - Explorers discover a whole new continent to the west. 1370 DR - The various evil aquatic races band together and start attacking coastal cities in both the inner and outer seas 1371 DR - a huge humanoid army led by a red dragon attacks Cormyr, causing the death of the King and devistating large portions of the country. 1372 DR - The city of Shade returns, causing huge ecological changes throughout the continent and resulting in a particularly ugly war between the elves and human cities on one side and powerful creatures on another. 1373 DR - Pretty much every dragon in the setting goes crazy and starts attacking everything on sight. Now that's pretty earthshaking, isn't it? It's now 1374 DR. An army of half-demon elves are devastating the North and causes havoc in the Dales and surrounding areas. To counter them, a huge army of elves have returned from self-imposed exile in the west. Massive disruptions of population are taking place due to the ecologic havoc brought about by the return of the city of Shade and the draconic rampage. The once mighty nation of Cormyr is severely weakened due to invasion, famine, the plotting of its neighbors, and the squabbling of its own nobles. An orc warlord is amassing a horde in order to conquer the north to rule under his iron fist. Everywhere the churches of evil gods are waxing in strength. Doesn't all this also scream: THIS IS AN ADVENTURE WAITING TO HAPPEN! WHY AREN'T YOU THERE ALREADY! DO IT NOW! ?? |
| Kuje3108-06-05, 09:08 PM | Huh? For years a subset of FR fandom have complained about the continual RSE ("Realms Shaking Events") that happen every two or three years in the setting. Since the setting first came out and the timeline advanced we've had: 1358 DR - the Time of Troubles. The gods walk the Realms in avatar form, many attacking each other. Can't get much more earthshaking than that! 1360 DR - the Horde invasion. A group of Mongol-esque invaders attack and lay waste to substantial portions of the eastern Realms. A huge army is gathered in the western Realms and they go to war against the Horde. 1361 DR - Explorers discover a whole new continent to the west. 1370 DR - The various evil aquatic races band together and start attacking coastal cities in both the inner and outer seas 1371 DR - a huge humanoid army led by a red dragon attacks Cormyr, causing the death of the King and devistating large portions of the country. 1372 DR - The city of Shade returns, causing huge ecological changes throughout the continent and resulting in a particularly ugly war between the elves and human cities on one side and powerful creatures on another. 1373 DR - Pretty much every dragon in the setting goes crazy and starts attacking everything on sight. Now that's pretty earthshaking, isn't it? It's now 1374 DR. An army of half-demon elves are devastating the North and causes havoc in the Dales and surrounding areas. To counter them, a huge army of elves have returned from self-imposed exile in the west. Massive disruptions of population are taking place due to the ecologic havoc brought about by the return of the city of Shade and the draconic rampage. The once mighty nation of Cormyr is severely weakened due to invasion, famine, the plotting of its neighbors, and the squabbling of its own nobles. An orc warlord is amassing a horde in order to conquer the north to rule under his iron fist. Everywhere the churches of evil gods are waxing in strength. Doesn't all this also scream: THIS IS AN ADVENTURE WAITING TO HAPPEN! WHY AREN'T YOU THERE ALREADY! DO IT NOW! ?? And these are the tip of the iceberg. :) There's tons more you forgot here. :) |
| PoeticJustice08-06-05, 10:06 PM | Thanks for the info, I honestly hadn't seen all of that in a meaningful way. Honestly, I'm a die-hard Eberronian, but I've always wanted to give the Realms a shot, just to see what it was like. But getting a plot hook is only half my problem. Bear with me, I'm not trying to be difficult. How does the little glory seeker get involved. See, on Eberron its easy: Somebody pays you to do it, and then you get betrayed bringing you into a power play/conspiracy/intrigue that spans the entire world. How does it typically happen on Toril? |
| Kuje3108-06-05, 10:08 PM | Thanks for the info, I honestly hadn't seen all of that in a meaningful way. Honestly, I'm a die-hard Eberronian, but I've always wanted to give the Realms a shot, just to see what it was like. But getting a plot hook is only half my problem. Bear with me, I'm not trying to be difficult. How does the little glory seeker get involved. See, on Eberron its easy: Somebody pays you to do it, and then you get betrayed bringing you into a power play/conspiracy/intrigue that spans the entire world. How does it typically happen on Toril? Sounds a lot like how things can start in FR. :) There's nothing stopping you from using that type of starting plot in FR. |
| Arilou_skiff08-06-05, 10:29 PM | If anything I'd have the *opposite* problem with the FR: Too MANY power-groups and plot-hooks just waiting for you... EDIT: Another point is that the FR is one big place, you'll never run out of challenges. |
| Alac Luin08-06-05, 10:42 PM | You are hired by a noble to investigate / retrieve an item stolen from them. You chance down recover the item, but the thief escapes. You return the item, and track down the thief as he and his friends are setting an ambush on a trade caravan and stop them, killing the thief and a few of his associates. You are rewarded by the caravan master. Realize a shadowy organization is following you. Meantime the noble who hired you in the first place contacts you for another mission, a simple “Fed Ex” mission. The shadowy organization that has been following you starts to actively oppose you. You deliver the package, but you start to suspect the the people you delivered the package to are not what they seem, so you investigate them a bit while you are in town. You find out that they are members of the Cult of the Dragon. As time progresses you find out the shadowy organization following you is the harpers, you have made enemies of them when you protected a Zent caravan delivering drugs to waterdeep. And that noble that hired you?, well she is part of the plot to replace the king Cormyr. (this is only one such option) |
| Darrian08-06-05, 11:48 PM | Hey Gothic Dan, What's Wal Mart? Darrian (never been to a Wal Mart) |
| Alac Luin08-06-05, 11:53 PM | Hey Gothic Dan, What's Wal Mart? Darrian (never been to a Wal Mart) You should try it, things from TP to canned food are a lot cheaper then supermarkets. :D (I've actually never been to a super wal mart) Then agien, since I'm white trash (self titled), I dont mind being seen there. :P But this is off topic ;) |
| Darrian08-07-05, 12:32 AM | I might try it Alac, but I have no idea where one is. Darrian (No Wal Mart in my neighborhood) |
| GothicDan08-07-05, 12:56 AM | If you can afford to live reasonably well (read: at all) in a neighborhood in which a Wal Mart is not within easy driving distance, I envy you. |
| Darrian08-07-05, 01:15 AM | Oh GD I can and I do. Back on topic, I have thinking about the "power creep" that an earlier poster mentioned and he is right. The longer a setting exists and the more supplements that come out for it, the greater the population of powerful beings. I think there should be some way to change this. Maybe retire the chosen and many of the older iconic characters from FR. Yes there is a powercreep in FR but the real problem is that none of the high level beings seem to die or retire from the setting. Of the 10 epic level characters listed in the 3.0 FRCS none of them have died or been otherwise taken permanently out of the setting. Darrian (Let's kill some Epic's) |
| GothicDan08-07-05, 02:44 AM | I believe there is usually a Power Creep in fantasy. And I think that's part of its iconic heritage. Wheel of Time, Sword of Truth, Kushiel legacy, Black Jewels, even Tolkien to a point. It's simply a part of fantasy. Heroes become more powerful, and they become iconic. They become Epic. They don't always die, but more often, fade into the background of things to let the small fries have a chance. Because, if all of the big Epic guys on both sides really took their gauntlets off and went at it, there would no longer be a world for them to fight over. Kind of like nukes. So, that's why there's easily room for characters of any level to fit into the setting, regardless of how many Epic characters there are. Back in earlier editions, anything above 12th or 13th level was considered absurdly powerful. Those who favor 1st level games could say, "What's the point in playing if a bunch of 10th level NPCs in the world can just mop up all of our encounters?" The point is, that those 10th level characters have CR 10 challenges of their own to take care of. If one's players have to be the most pivotal/powerful characters in the world, or the region, I think said players have serious confidence and roleplaying issues. |
| Mr. Wilson08-07-05, 04:24 AM | Geez. It seems like you don't know much about Eberron either (though I shouldn't complain because I don't know much about FR). And I should point out I own anything Eberron has put out minus the novels (cause I'm not interested). I get what the setting is doing, but I don't buy into that one part of the setting. I could quote Keith and his statement that you brought up regarding the Dragon's, but that doesn't change the fact the Daughter's of Sora Kell should rule the whole of Khorvaire. What's to stop them? The Silver Flame? Hah. Breland? Double Hah. It's a stated fact that most soldiers are level 2 or 3 tops (warriors, might I add), no human nation will stop Droamm. It's a good thing evil is completly bumbling, otherwise the whole continent would fall in seconds, Dragons or no Dragons (who as you say, probably wouldn't care). When the "Hero" of the setting is a King with 11 total levels, the world is in trouble. That's all I'm saying. |
| Beleriphon08-07-05, 02:17 PM | AI get what the setting is doing, but I don't buy into that one part of the setting. I could quote Keith and his statement that you brought up regarding the Dragon's, but that doesn't change the fact the Daughter's of Sora Kell should rule the whole of Khorvaire. What's to stop them? The Silver Flame? Hah. Breland? Double Hah. The daughters of Sore Kell probably could conquer Khorvaire if they were so inclined. Of course they aren't, so they don't. But if you think about this for a minute there are forces that can stop such an army. The Dragonmarked houses for one, the human nations would easily band together to counter such a threat, afterwards who knows. As an aside here, I like both settings. I like the approach to NPCs as well. Most of the really high level characters in FR are not active in the world. Elminster may be exceptionally powerful but he's also nuts, he always struck me a somebody who would rather embarass an arrogent member of Waterdeep's nobility at a party then be out kicking ass and taking names. In contrast the majority of moderate level NPCs in Eberrron are active in the world, they don't adventure but they sure are busy doing what needs to be done. BTW, is there seriously a better character that Kaius III of Karnnath? |
| Faraer08-07-05, 02:54 PM | About 'power creep': Certainly D&D has suffered since it began from level inflation, such that 20th level in 1980 might be said to be equivalent to 40th level in 2005. The published Realms has both suffered from and taken part in this. But the crucial point here is that character levels and exact 'power' is a peripheral, secondary notion in the Realms that Ed conceived and continues to write about. The levels ascribed to characters weren't meant to be definitive, just estimates for the help of the DM, who was encouraged to change them to suit campaign needs -- and of course most of the time they don't come into play at all, except for characters whom the PCs fight. In contrast, the idea of definitive, inclusive character writeups is a 3E notion that was imposed on the published Realms from without. There's also a perception that the power level of the Realms inflated between the Old Grey Box and, say, the mid-1990s. I am sure, through careful reading and discussion with Ed, that the power revealed during that time -- actually revealed, not stuff falsely attributed to the Realms like overpowered 2E kits -- was always there but not highlighted because the first products were overviews. The Realms is fractal: the closer you look at something, the more complications and hidden secrets and capabilities it turns out to have. Now just as in 1987, a few people will look at a campaign sourcebook and assume it details everything significant about a place. Not in this setting: there are always new corners and, I assure you, there are many more powerful entities than have been mentioned or detailed in print. The setting didn't change, only our knowledge of it. |
| Jonathan Strange08-08-05, 01:07 AM | Elminster and the Justice League of Faerun. How funny and true. I love it! All those high level honchos are like superheros and supervillans. Doesn't mean that others heros and villans aren't needed for tasks of lesser importance than saving/destroying the world. These superpowered fellows are also members or work with much larger and far reaching organizations with many levels and plots. Thus the PCs, even at 1st level, do get a taste of what the epic dudes are involved with. Maybe they'll live long enought to get there too, maybe not. |
| BrianCritchley08-08-05, 02:51 AM | Thanks for the info, I honestly hadn't seen all of that in a meaningful way. Honestly, I'm a die-hard Eberronian, but I've always wanted to give the Realms a shot, just to see what it was like. pretty much the same. Forgotten Realms has it's global spanning orginizations. now most are stronger in one region then another but thats pretty typical. |
| Preternatural08-08-05, 03:01 AM | What use is one 39th level NPC against the low level NPC ruler of an empire (with one maybe two levels in Aristocrat)? If that ruler has fanatically loyal to him (or her) over a dozen 40th level court wizards, entire clergies of state supported deities, countless legions of elite warriors, and more imperial assassins than an 80s ninja movie, that lone epic level NPC is in trouble. Unless that epic character has plot based immunity due to being the hero of the adventure or novel, but that's another argument altogether. --- I keep this example in mind when creating rulers and such for my own settings: in a stereotype oriental style setting, the epic level man-slaying samurai PC must take his own life if his level 1 aristocrat NPC Emperor orders it. And if he doesn't do it, the Emperor has dozens of champions, who are every bit as skilled as our ill fated swordmaster, who would gladly take the swordmaster's head. With a word, that high level character is dead, killed technically by a low level NPC character. Heck, he doesn't even have to say a word, for flavor I might have the emperor throw down a wooden tile with a single character written on it, just for flavor. How's that? Your invincible warrior, victor of a thousand duels and survivor of countless battles is dead, all because the 17 year old punk who was born into the right family and position threw a piece of wood onto the floor in front of you. Tough luck, roll up a new character. "High level NPCs" mean as much or as little as the DM wants them to mean. --- Just as the Dragons in Eberron seem to be containing all uber-magical mayhem at bay (going by examples cited earlier here, haven't gotten around to reading the ECS), Elminster and his pals are keeping Faerun safe from the numerous epic evil threats that would ruin life for all manner of inconsequential gnats like 1st-20th level characters. When/if these youngbloods get up to the levels where they draw the attention of Elminster level beings, then I'm sure old El would let them have a shot at it, he sure seems tired of it. Just look at pictures of important political figures (presidents, prime ministers, etc) before and after the few years that contains some series of crisises or major events, stress really does a number on them. --- And here is another question to consider, for this case we'll use the USA, but can be easily exchanged for any other country. How many drunk drivers does an active military person pull over compared to your regular police officer in say New York City or L.A.? How many parking tickets does he give? How many petty thieves does he arrest? I will bet none, unless he stops being in the military and becomes joins the civilian police. What do they possibly have in common? They both carry guns and serve the same country. But of course we know the military guy is probably carrying several weapons, many of them more powerful than the comparatively simple and weak service pistol of the police officer. Likely their enemies are armed with weapons that match with their respective opponents. Now roughly apply this to a fantasy setting. The police are the low level mages armed with one magic missile per spell casting, the military are the high level mages whose magic missiles can probably kill the low level mage twice over, not to mention the numerous other spells they have at their disposal, just as the military has planes, rockets, tanks, etc. These two entities would operate in entirely different fields. As there is no reason why the military would suddenly participate in police car chases with their tanks, neither would the police take an interest in air dropping their patrolmen armed with pistols and batons into a live battle zone. Not without some very, very dire circumstances in play. Elminster would not be interested in a spell duel with a level one mageling, and the level one mageling would probably not have the chance to even see Fzoul to challenge the Chosen of Bane and force him to repent for all his doings. There should be no overlap between characters of such vastly different levels. If there is any communication, it is likely through intermediaries. Does the President (Prime Minister, etc) personally tell each government clerk what to do each morning? |
| edgy_rhinx08-09-05, 10:20 AM | Actually the power of a ruler is not in his stats but in his kingdom. Thus I don't see how rulers of FR are different from rulers of Ebberon. Yes, they are harder to kill, so what? However if DM plays any NPC to outshine PC, its incorrect, regardless of the setting. On the other hand I never play epic, but it's realistic that there is someone in the world, stronger than your barb level 10. If you need to be the strongest to have fun, play GOD and don't blame Faerun. And make sure you are the only god in a universe. |
| fugueplane08-11-05, 10:08 PM | I find the idea that NPC levels were meant to be variable to suit a DMs needs in one edition of the Realms but not to be variable in the most recent edition a little confusing. I have not seen some direct or implied statements that Realms NPCs have fixed immovable levels in any edition of the game. I have seen much about the most recent rules that says DMs can and really should change NPC levels when they need to for their game. 3E was built to make this possible on purpose. 3E supports this idea strongly by giving DMs precise rules that translate flavor and NPC qualities into game mechanics. I knew many DMs and players who treated NPC writeups for Realmsish NPCs from older editions of the game as absolutes. I haven’t known many hardcore Realms players who thought otherwise. Statistics for NPCs in 3E are by many degrees far more precise, but that precision should not be mistaken for imposing absolutes. 3E does a much better job of helping DMs flesh out NPCs as needed. It does a better job of helping DMs with this than any older edition of the game ever did. 3E can also let power creep run over a game faster than in any other edition if DMs are not very careful. |
| Hairfoot08-12-05, 01:05 AM | Frankly, I find even FR to be overpowered. I dislike the superhero character standard in 3.5. I find it much more satisfying to achieve small victories over minor villains than laying waste to entire nations, or saving Toril every single week. Low-level characters are junior epics rather than talented mortals. There are no Indiana Joneses in FR, only Uncanny X-Men. |
| Spirithawkfellow08-15-05, 12:16 PM | I see the debate continues on this subject, between Eberron and the Forgotten Realms. For all the Realms grandiuer there is alway a place to play small look at shadowdale, Westgate, pockets where you can build very small and then go big with you adventures. I don't leave it to the campaign I create an build what I have so it can mesh with the Realms, yes i agree the realms can be overwhelimg with its vast array of chosen, avators, god, and magic, but I feel that's the challenge of playing a game like Dungeons and Dragons. Yes you want to be able to enjoy 1-6 level campaigns, but you also want to become legendary heroes and the way to do this is to go beyond 6 level. My own players are doing this now, haveing just destroyed the Wyrm king of Loch Narsis of ancient Nethril, they didn't go out to save a kingdom but to rescue a character's sister, and I consider a this a low level adventure, since they were all 5th level. As a player the Realms has been a vast place of enjoyment. I've been playing the setting since 1993... I can't say i see a difference in it since then, it still pretty much the same, crazy and chaotic the right element to adventure in and in terms of power,I say it favors the PC since now it even more improtant for the PC the ward off the evil that has grown in the realms. The point is you need to challenge yourself, and the Realms you can challenge yourself in spades. As a DM your players don't know the power level of a Campaign, they don't know If it is Epic or Low level. All they know is that, there a wizard to slay because he done some evil, or that evil ruler must be put down becasue he enslaves his people. In Eberron since it is a new setting, might be low level in terms but as a DM when I run it my players don't now anything about the setting or even if they have, they don't acknowledge it. And to say Eberron is a Low level setting is crazy, yes the creator might have said that, but with all the stuff it has, and what i've read from the book and running it, ah hell their alot ot epic level stuff to do in that game. Npc they got in epicness up the Wazoo, the Dalkyer, Lords of Dusk, King Vampire need I say more. Oh wait lest I forget the Lord of Blades, Rakasha's, and dragons you don't even see the dragons becasue there mad powerful. Go beyond the level, and look at the stats, these characters could give any epic character a run fo its money. I'm Just saying stop judgeing a setting by its level, Judge it by what it's value. Both The Realms and Eberron offer something to make you want to play. To say this campaign is epic level or that campaign is low level is Ridicules, you are the compass in which these worlds a judeged, either Epic or Low. Excelesior Spirit HawkFellow, Captian of Mythdrannor, and Wielder of Keryvian aka (Foebane) |
| Faraer08-15-05, 12:32 PM | I knew many DMs and players who treated NPC writeups for Realmsish NPCs from older editions of the game as absolutes. I haven’t known many hardcore Realms players who thought otherwise.Then they didn't read the DM's Sourcebook of the Realms and they misinterpreted the spirit in which Realms stats were presented. Hairfoot, you can't possibly justify that with the sources. '[L]aying waste to entire nations, or saving Toril every single week' is well outside the spirit of the Realms -- this is a sword and sorcery setting, not one of Threats to All. The vast majority of Realms source material -- hundreds of sourcebooks, novels, and articles -- is geared to your Indiana Joneses -- compared to maybe a dozen novels and a couple of sourcebooks to very high-level characters. And those sourcebooks are devoted to background lore and using them as supporting characters to the PCs. |
| Majorafire7709-05-05, 09:02 PM | And I should point out I own anything Eberron has put out minus the novels (cause I'm not interested). I get what the setting is doing, but I don't buy into that one part of the setting. I could quote Keith and his statement that you brought up regarding the Dragon's, but that doesn't change the fact the Daughter's of Sora Kell should rule the whole of Khorvaire. What's to stop them? The Silver Flame? Hah. Breland? Double Hah. It's a stated fact that most soldiers are level 2 or 3 tops (warriors, might I add), no human nation will stop Droamm. It's a good thing evil is completly bumbling, otherwise the whole continent would fall in seconds, Dragons or no Dragons (who as you say, probably wouldn't care). When the "Hero" of the setting is a King with 11 total levels, the world is in trouble. That's all I'm saying. You own all of the Eberron books except for the novels? It should be obvious that Riedra is the major threat. Your example is crap. The nations of Khorvaire would not just sit there while the Daughters of Sora Kell sweep the continent. Yeah, sure, the Daughters could completely overrun nation X, but that's assuming that the rulers of nations Y, Z, etc are complete idiots and will just sit there while a country gets destroyed. I'm quite sure that it's been said many times that if all of Khorvaire joined together, they'd be a very powerful force. That's what would happen if the Daughters simply decided to move all of Droaam's forces right into another country. It's not like it'd be a sneak attack either. By the time the Daughters moved their forces into another country, the entire continent would know. I see no immediate threat from Droaam. The threat to Khorvaire as a whole doesn't come in the form of an army invading and mutilating everyone on the continent (except from the dragons, but they don't give a :censored: about anyone but themselves). That's what makes the Dreaming Dark so scary. They have spies everywhere. They know everything about Khorvaire. Khorvaire doesn't know anything about Riedra or the DD, because whenever they try to send expeditions there they get killed. As for your "hero" comment. The heroes of the setting shouldn't be anyone but the PCs. The entire ECS should be screaming that message at you. Honestly, it's even in the FRCS also. When the "hero" of the setting is anyone but the PCs, the world is in trouble. |
| GothicDan09-05-05, 09:24 PM | When the "hero" of the setting is anyone but the PCs, the world is in trouble. Really? I find it integral to work NPC heroes (and villains) into a setting. It shows that a world is dynamic and growing and exists outside of the actions of the PCs only. In other words, life keeps on going. |
| Demetrios09-05-05, 10:01 PM | Really? I find it integral to work NPC heroes (and villains) into a setting. It shows that a world is dynamic and growing and exists outside of the actions of the PCs only. In other words, life keeps on going. I was thinking about this should this subject ever come back up (and, look, it has!), and there's a distinct disconnect between design and in-game logic when it comes to situations like this (as in Eberron). From a design standpoint, yes, the PCs should be the heroes. And Eberron, in its design, reflects this. Few, if any, NPCS are of high level, allowing the PCs to shine and become the center of the story, with no fear of being overshadowed by NPCS, once they reach that level. From an in-game standpoint, the whole situation begs the question - if the PCs can reach high levels, why can't NPCs? If NPCs can indeed reach high levels, where are they at? Surely NPCs have gone adventuring in Xen'drik or have gained lots of XP during the course of the Last War, and, logically, at least a few of them should have attained high level. It's a bit ridiculous to think that the current generation of adventurers will be the first to get to high levels in generations... |
| Solarious09-06-05, 02:57 AM | From an in-game standpoint, the whole situation begs the question - if the PCs can reach high levels, why can't NPCs? If NPCs can indeed reach high levels, where are they at? Surely NPCs have gone adventuring in Xen'drik or have gained lots of XP during the course of the Last War, and, logically, at least a few of them should have attained high level. It's a bit ridiculous to think that the current generation of adventurers will be the first to get to high levels in generations... Your question is very valid. Why are most veterans of the century-long Last War low level chumps, like Warrior 2 at best? Why is an elite following of House Dennith - a mercenary house - comprised of Figher 1s? Why has Vol, a half-dragon lich, not become an epic level demilich in the 2600 intervening years from the start of the campaign timeline? Why do only a select number of individuals manifest the coveted Dragonmarks while the rest of the family inexplicably doesn't? How come the best a scholar with top grades and many years of experience only achieve is Wizard 1... and be lauded for it? Why aren't most priests even in a NPC casting class? The answer is simple. The vast majority people in Eberron have a glass ceiling on their progression. The point of Eberron, as you have said yourself, is that the PCs are special. They are the heroes. They are not subject to the limitations of the unwashed masses: the PCs can acomplish many things that others will only dream of, the movers and shakers of Khorvaire. The fact that they have PC classes already tells you that they are special. Of course, this doesn't mean there won't be lots to challenge them in a high level campaign. You want something that threatens even the mighty dragons of Argonnessen? Meet the Rakshasa Rajahs, who are the equivilant of the Great Old Ones of Lovecraftian fame. Their return will shatter Eberron and bring back another Age of Demons, wiping out existance as anyone still alive afterwards knows it. For those interested in intruige, the political manuvering of the Dragonmarked Houses is dangerous at any level, with factors such as the Aurum, the Zilargo Trust, the Order of the Emerald Claw, and the Dreaming Dark as outside factors. And they're just the usual suspects. Is Lovecraftian Horror your style of play? There is an entire plane of madness out there to toy with. The Daelkyr presented in the Eberron ECS is just the most baseline of them all (and those are just CR20): most are advanced, many have unique powers befitting their reputations, and it is widely accepted they are capable of destroying Eberron. After all, where did the Gith come from? :devil: Enjoy Indiana Jones style exploration? Xen'drik is the most obvious place to start with, an entire continent unmapped (left that way, as publicly stated by WoTC) and subject to the wild whims of any DM wishing to introduce new experiences. A cataclysm capable of moving the very planes and making a giant hole in a continent larger than Khorvaire, combined with something to the tune of 40,000 years, can make nearly anything possible. Naturally, this also means that the very fate of the world depends on them. Once they're that powerful, there won't be any equivilant heroic agency to match them. The PCs fail, the world falls with them. No last saves from other epic NPCs. This also expains another reason why some players enjoy Eberron over the Forgotten Realms. If your PCs experience a TPK at a critical juncture in Forgotten Realms, no biggie. If it really is that important, Elminster, the Sisters, maybe even the gods, will probably intervene. Not so in Eberron. If you don't get that shipment of medicine to the Mror Holds in time? No problem! The entire nation basicly becomes a tomb for thousands, and the economy colapses with the fall of House Kundarak's (biggest banking guild in Khorvaire) main base of operations. Afterwards, the Last War begins once more, plunging all of civilization into another bloody dark age. Congratulations, your failure has brought back the nightmare of war to millions! The actions of PCs can really affect the flow of history... at the tender level of 6. |
| Krash09-06-05, 03:04 AM | All that said, it will be interesting to see how Eberron will cope with edition changes to the game and a novel line - two things that have been the catalyst for a progression in the timeline and things 'happening' in the Realms. -- George Krashos |
| Another Gnome09-06-05, 03:34 AM | Congratulations, your failure has brought back the nightmare of war to millions! The actions of PCs can really affect the flow of history... at the tender level of 6. Pretty much so. As an adventurer I don't give a damn about saving the world, I just want to kill some kobolds and, you know, adventure without a care of tomorrow. |
| Mula09-06-05, 08:17 AM | Very well put, Solarious. :clap: I love Eberron and the Realms equally, but I do find that justifying low-level adventuring in FR is a bit harder. E.g., why would a sponsor contact or hire the lvl 1 or 3 PCs when there's more experienced people around? It's not an unsurpassable problem, but it does require more thinking (well, that's not a bad thing, but still). |
| Majorafire7709-06-05, 09:02 AM | Very well put, Solarious. :clap: I love Eberron and the Realms equally, but I do find that justifying low-level adventuring in FR is a bit harder. E.g., why would a sponsor contact or hire the lvl 1 or 3 PCs when there's more experienced people around? It's not an unsurpassable problem, but it does require more thinking (well, that's not a bad thing, but still). Yeah. I've also been trying to get into FR recently and I found that kind of tough. I think that the easiest way around it is probably to have the PCs join some kind of large group planning to raid a dungeon or something, until they level up. Of course, running adventures just to level up the PCs is a problem by itself, and I personally think it's tough in to have good, quality adventures for level 1 PCs, even in Eberron. It seems like the only way around it is some type of dungeon crawl. |
| Darrian09-06-05, 04:05 PM | I just got back from Conquest/San Francisco. Keith Baker was there and I got to talk to him all weekend about Eberron and D&D in general. I gotta say, I am impressed. He is a very smart guy and his campaign building ideas are incredible. I bought the Eberron campaign book and I may soon switch to Eberron. It amazes me that I am considering switching, I have played FR since it first came out and I have all the 3.0/3.5 material published for it. However, the Eberron campaign setting is fresh, the designer did not create it as a homebrew world and play in it since he was in second grade, so there are no iconic characters that the creator is unfairly attached to. The role of deities is much less, gods are not going to interfere in the actions of characters, like Mystra does. It is very clear that the future of D&D from WotC's point of view is Eberron. The new online game is Eberron based, most of the new source books are Eberron based. Darrian |
| Mula09-06-05, 04:17 PM | It is very clear that the future of D&D from WotC's point of view is Eberron. Well, I wouldn't say that. Forgotten Realms is still a very successful line. Why can't there be room for two? :) |