Post/Author/DateTime	Post
pandionpdg 06-30-03, 12:42 PM	How can a Chosen of Mystra be killed? If anyone did such a thing in their campaign, how did you do it?
Witchqueen 06-30-03, 12:53 PM	Why would you want to do it, unless you were evil? Has anyone ever killed Drizzt - now there's something I'd like to see! ;)
pandionpdg 06-30-03, 01:00 PM	Well, I know everyone wants to kill the Chosen but I'm different b/c I reeeeaaaaaallllllly want to kill off just one. ;) Seriously though my story arc doesn't require a Chosen get killed but the threat needs to be believable. I'm trying to incorporate the Shadow Weave into having such a threat be credible. Any idears?
Psionycx 06-30-03, 01:25 PM	The Chosen are ageless, but not immortal in the strict sense of the word. While they can't be poisoned/diseased, and they heal very fast, they can still be slain by inflicting enough damage. This is why Sylune is dead. She broke a Staff of the Magi to destroy a dragon and was consumed in the blast.
Gotrex 06-30-03, 06:35 PM	the chosen may be powerful but they die the same as everyone else if they get there head cut off or somthing :)
^Graff 06-30-03, 07:03 PM	I remember reading something that stated that while you can use weave magic to injure a Chosen of Mystra, you can't actually kill them that way. If you bring them down to 0 hp, they turn into a column of silver flame and eventually reform. You have to kill them with mundane weapons or Shadow Magic. I don't know where I read that, but I do know that Laeral turns into a column of flame in Silverfall after catching a magical trap right in the face.
Psionycx 06-30-03, 08:39 PM	That can't be right, otherwise Sylune wouldn't have died in that Retributive Strike. She died as a direct result of Weave magic (admittedly self-inflicted).
Xae'an 06-30-03, 09:01 PM	I definitly would never ever allow a player with the aim of killing a Chosen of Mystra in my campaign. Any character who choses such an evil path later on would face a quick, painful death without the possiblity of resurrection. Fortunatly none of my players has shown such tendencies and we do our best to keep it that way. What I'm not so sure about is the question if I allow a player to become as powerful enough to deafeat one, e.g. in a mage duel as described in Magic of Faerun, as don't really know now if the maximum character level for PCs in my campaign will be 30 or 40. Anyway I don't think killing them is impossible, as the Chosen of Mystra template only states that they can't die of natural causes but not that they can't be killed
Psionycx 06-30-03, 09:20 PM	It's all just Hit Points kids. If you can inflict enough damage then they die. Simple. The hard part is that the Chosen are not oblivious to this fact and they take some pains to avoid being killed. The Elminster's Evasion spell being a great example of one such tactic.
Yamo 06-30-03, 11:32 PM	I definitly would never ever allow a player with the aim of killing a Chosen of Mystra in my campaign. Any character who choses such an evil path later on would face a quick, painful death without the possiblity of resurrection. Geez. Somebody is a little too enthralled by Ed Greenwood's ubermunchkins. :rolleyes: Maybe you should try running games with the PCs as the focus and let them pursue their own goals (whatever they may be) instead of obsessing over maintaining plot immunity for somebody else's hackneyed wannabe demigods. Or is that too radical an idea?
thalious 07-02-03, 02:57 AM	Originally posted by Xae'an I definitly would never ever allow a player with the aim of killing a Chosen of Mystra in my campaign. Any character who choses such an evil path later on would face a quick, painful death without the possiblity of resurrection. :rolleyes: I'm with Yamo on this one. Do your players know this trait about you in your campaigns? How do they feel about it if they do? Personally, I would not to play in anyones campaign where the DM was completely biased as you claim to be. FMC, if someone kills off one of the Chosen of Mystra, they will logically be in some hot water. On the other hand, Gods who are not an ally of Mystra or outright enemies might be favorable inclined towards the slayer. Ultimately, Roll/Role play will determine the results if or when one of my players kill a Chosen of Mystra.
The King of Boredom 07-02-03, 03:11 AM	You're thinking too simply about this. Killing a Chosen is all evil and awe-inspiring and stuff, but there's something even better. Slowly corrupting one, taking away all that they hold dear until they refuse the company of the other Chosen and uber-do-gooders. Pushing one to the point that all they feel is darkness and loss, then they begin to worship the diety that is all their life has become, Shar. In other words, turn them to the Dark Side. It worked for Vader.:D
thalious 07-02-03, 03:19 AM	It worked on Vader.... but ultimately it failed and Vader ended up siding with Good in the end.
The King of Boredom 07-02-03, 03:26 AM	That's cause Vader was a...::remembers the boards are censored::...pansy. :smirk: If done right, it wouldn't be realistic for the Fallen Chosen to turn back again. Sammaster didn't and look at all the great evil he's left as a legacy. Personally I'm using Dove for this exact purpose. She'll lose her husband, her son, her home, etc. One could even use her lesser known deeds as part of it, she is the "forgotten sister" and all that. But like I said, it has to be slow and realistic for it to be proper.
thalious 07-02-03, 03:34 AM	I agree that a Fallen Chosen should not be able to come back, but a fallen chosen could still change their alignment, god of worship, actions, etc, even if they don't get any benefit for it other than the afterlife destination for like aligned characters. I.E. L-G characters who die do not go to the Abyss nor C-E characters going to the Seven Heavens.
Yamo 07-02-03, 06:32 AM	I'm with Yamo on this one. Do your players know this trait about you in your campaigns? How do they feel about it if they do? Personally, I would not to play in anyones campaign where the DM was completely biased as you claim to be. That's exactly the problem. A DM should be a fair as possible. Let them try. Their goal should be possible, but very difficult. If they fail fair and square, let them live with the consequences. If they succeed, let they reap the rewards they were after. Just deciding that you're going to use total DM fiat to make the player die "a quick, painful death without the possiblity of resurrection" no matter what is just cheesy and childishly spiteful. It's completely contrary to the spirit of fair play in a roleplaying game.
thalious 07-02-03, 06:59 AM	DMs should be fair. If the DM plans on having sacred cows and such in their campaign, the DM should make it a point to inform the players of such facts so the players can quickly look for a new DM.
pandionpdg 07-02-03, 11:03 AM	Well, let me just say that the reason I asked this "killing a chosen" question was because I am the DM in our group. None of the players in my campaign want to kill a chosen(as far as I know:smirk: ). I was really asking for plot purposes and wondering out loud how an NPC who uses the shadow weave could kill a mystra chosen. Obviously I don't consider the chosen to be "off-the-table" when death is being dealt but some of this thinking is connected to the arrogant and condescending attitude some of them have taken on(i.e. Elminster, Khelben) over the last few novels. I just don't like how they are being portrayed and I feel that one of them needs to be reminded of their own inflating hubris.
Garnet Hardeon 07-02-03, 11:19 AM	Killing 'em would be suicidal; I can't think of a single Chosen of any kind that could be taken out easily, not to mention the host of allies they have. (Ranging from Drizzt to the Elven People to the Harpers to the Lords' Alliance). Now someone raised the idea of corruption...and if one were wily, then it could happen. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Sammaster formerly a Chosen of Mystra? Fine, he turned insane thanks to the raw power, but I guess that's pretty close to it. And some of them skirt the edges of insanity already. The Simbul has been known to get a bid "touched" if you know what I mean, and Laeral was once corrupted by the Crown of Thorns. I'd do that, if I wanted to incapacitate a Chosen for the side of good...and do a lot of damage for the sake of the side of evil.
Savras 07-02-03, 11:39 AM	Chosen? Which one? Killing El or Simbul would be impossible, but killing a weaker one would be easy. Just choose the weakest of Mystra's *14* living Chosen (or so, also, there are another five or so dead ones), and try. Shar and Cyric will oripably help. Savras, Who Won't Help In Such a Vile Quest (But Will Cheer When s Chosen Will Die)
Masakado 07-02-03, 11:55 AM	If you're gonna bump off someone uber, why not a bad guy like Larloch or a Prince of Shade? Fzoul Chembryl's still breathing, is a Chosen (of Bane) & has as bad a 'tude as Khelben. Someone needs to hunt this guy down, instead of picking a fight with Elminster. Why everyone wants to have a showdown with one of Mystra's Chosen is beyond me. :rolleyes: One of Manshoon's clones is a vampire arch mage trying to create an empire of vampires, & folks are still making the attempt to slay the fairly benevolent servants of a benevolent god a top priority. :rolleyes:
Savras 07-02-03, 12:05 PM	Well, with all due respect, Larloch and Fzoul are cool, as is Orbakh (vampiric Manshoon). The Chosen (bar Khelben) are just irritating. In my opinion, of course. Savras
Masakado 07-02-03, 12:17 PM	Originally posted by Savras Well, with all due respect, Larloch and Fzoul are cool, as is Orbakh (vampiric Manshoon). I think that they're cool, too, but that's a metagame issue. The Realms would be a much happier (and safer) place if Orbakh's & Fzoul's threats were permanently done away with. Only for a more threatening force to take their respective places, I suppose. In response to the reason for killing the Chosen, I don't think that the Shadow Weave would be any less a credible threat if the Chosen were to be bumped off. Shar's personal weave has plenty of powerful practitioners, like the Shadovar, and plenty of powerful defenders, such as the Monks of the Dark Moon. The Shadow Weave is plenty threatening enough as it is, IMO. If you want to tell a fable about the corrupting power of the Shadow Weave, do something with Aeron Moreith. He seems to be the only well-adjusted Shadow Adept around, & would seem to me to be a fine candidate for a dark seduction.
pandionpdg 07-02-03, 12:20 PM	Well, at the risk of letting my players know my story arc, let me explain my plot and you all can comment on it. First, I'm will not have a Mystra Chosen killed but a real threat to one of their lives needs to exist during a cataclysmic event in which MANY other innocents will or could be slaughtered. The reason for this is that Mystra herself will be watching the event in which an evil weave using group will attempt to kill a whole city and a chosen for their own purposes(yet to be decided) and be shut off from the weave just before they can kill everyone. Well, that's when Shar jumps in and uses the event as an example of how biased Mystra(Midnight) is, due to her good alignment, in deciding who can use the weave. Shar will then say that Mystra in incapable of truly allowing all magic users to use the weave and then start openly recruiting evil organizations and NPCs to her shadow weave for only she, as she will claim, is absolutely willing to allow evil aligned people to use magic without the possibility of their powers being "cut off". That's when the s*** hits the fan and a rift between good and evil gods develops over whether Midnight can truly represent the interests of all types of magic users if she favors those who are good aligned over others who are farther away from her own alignment. There are other components to this story but I don't want to show all my cards just yet. This is the jist of the story though.
Slaygar 07-02-03, 12:31 PM	Good plot idea, also think of one of the other magic gods out there who would like to take the portfolio of pure magic and the weave(one in the same though).
Savras 07-02-03, 01:16 PM	Originally posted by Masakado I think that they're cool, too, but that's a metagame issue. The Realms would be a much happier (and safer) place if Orbakh's & Fzoul's threats were permanently done away with. <snip> A valid point. I hate these! Anyway, the Chosen serve no function but "being cool for Mystra" (they are supposed to limit her power and hold it if she is destroyed. Yay). I, personaly, feel that having so many of them ruins it. One extraordinary mate-cool. 14 extraordinary mates- extra, super ordinary and bring. Savras
Masakado 07-02-03, 02:18 PM	Originally posted by Savras I, personaly, feel that having so many of them ruins it. One extraordinary mate-cool. 14 extraordinary mates- extra, super ordinary and bring. Also a valid point. IMHO, Elminster was a bit more personable when he was merely an eccentric mage, but those in control did not agree with me. Nevertheless, The Mage of Shadowdale continues to be an interesting personality. To pandionpdg: The fog has lifted now & I understand what you're trying to do. :) Excellent job on your storyline. It seems well thought out and is a very interesting piece of planar politics.
Xae'an 07-02-03, 08:15 PM	I'm definitly not unfair to the players, as I made clear that I do not allow evil PCs in my campaign and that - should one of them turn evil - he/she would not enjoy a long life. Even a single evil PC can wreck a campaign if he/she stays with the group for too long and therefore I don't want any. I don't have any so-called sacred cows as somebody claimed, slaughtering unicorns or eating pixies would not be better than slaying the Chosen of Mystra, only less impressive, but I want a party of non-evil characters that fits together well. If some people want to play the villains that's fine too if their DM has no problem with it, but fortunatly none of the players in my party has such ambitions. I fully agree with Masakado on hunting down Fzoul, that would be a great showdown. Those who want to slay the Chosen of Mystra are IMHO merely power gamers, who want to proof that they are the most powerful character in the world.
Savras 07-03-03, 05:15 AM	Well, if they want to prove their power they should fight with someone powerful- and the most powerfuls around are evil- Larloch and the Creeping Doom. Happy Hunting! -Savras
Gotrex 07-03-03, 07:48 AM	Your campaign seems quite interesting will be interesting to see the outcome considering that mystra has been pretty much found guilty of being biased before i could quite easily see her being striped of a magic portfolio and having it given to another god
Baron Phylos 07-03-03, 03:19 PM	Didn't it take the combined powers of three chosens to put down Sammaster while he was a chosen? Alustriel, Laeral and Khelben blasted Sammaster with everything they had, then Azuth took away his chosen powers and still the guy came back powerful enough to warrant having Lathander himself to come down to smite him.
Araciel 07-04-03, 01:34 AM	think of it this way: elminster...elminster gets in trouble "help me mystra" and she does....if a chosen WERE to die, mystra would bring em back anyways but thats just my dumbass opinion
The Simbul 07-04-03, 02:59 AM	The Name and Song Attunement ability allows a Chosen to hear the next nine words someone speaks after their name/nickname/truename is uttered....they are overhearing this conversation right now :D :D :D good luck trying to win the initiative roll Geez. Somebody is a little too enthralled by Ed Greenwood's ubermunchkins. Maybe you should try running games with the PCs as the focus and let them pursue their own goals (whatever they may be) instead of obsessing over maintaining plot immunity for somebody else's hackneyed wannabe demigods. Or is that too radical an idea? The Chosen of Mystra arent listed in the Monsters Manual or the Monsters of Faerun accessory, therfore any PC who seeks fame, glory, or treasure in trying to slaying them deserves any punishment he recieves. Since when did maintaining a popular background set piece consitute being "enthralled by Ed Greenwood's ubermunchkins"? I think in all of my DM'ing experience ive used the Chosen of Mystra thrice, twice because the PC's deliberately "roleplayed" their characters into regions and did deeds that garnered the attention of a few Shadowdale residents, the other was in the Spellbound boxed adventure/regional accessory, in which the Simbul was briefly involved. No one forces a DM to use any NPC in her campaign, and just because yo dont indulge a players inferiority complexes by letting them min/max their character and slay the "uber-ultima" NPC does not make you a poor DM. There are PLENTY of adventuring paths a character can take that dont involve telling The Simbul to "take better care of her hair" :angel:
Dracoth 07-04-03, 03:15 AM	---------------------------------------------------------------------------- I definitly would never ever allow a player with the aim of killing a Chosen of Mystra in my campaign. Any character who choses such an evil path later on would face a quick, painful death without the possiblity of resurrection. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- I definately would never allow a player who's character is wearing tight clothes or voice sounded high pitched and gay into my campaign. Any character who choses such an evil path would later face an unending UBERwedgie and have their tongue cut from their mouth without the posibility of regeneration. Yes I am mocking you. Plot sounds good to me, and I agree that it should be fair :) -Dracoth
VengefulGazeofGod 07-04-03, 08:21 AM	I can plot against Kelban Aronsum(sp?) without speeking his name. I could create a code word for him. I could sign to my co-conspiritares. Or I could write little notes to them. There are other ways to relay information, UNHOLY CRAP I'M DOIN' IT RIGHT NOW!!!!! :cool:
Velsharoon 07-04-03, 10:10 AM	Originally posted by VengefulGazeofGod I can plot against Kelban Aronsum(sp?) without speeking his name. I could create a code word for him. I could sign to my co-conspiritares. Or I could write little notes to them. There are other ways to relay information, UNHOLY CRAP I'M DOIN' IT RIGHT NOW!!!!! :cool: Yep just take 1 lvl of Mindbender PrC from T&B. IMHO very useful.
The Simbul 07-05-03, 12:28 AM	Except for the fact that the only way your character (i.e. not YOU) would know of the Name and Song Attunement is if either: a) copies of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Sourcebook are sold in Candlekeep or b) your character is using your own knowledge, which you have procured visa ve reading the sourcebooks, or through message board posts (like this one) which effectively is 'cheating'. :angel: Slaying a Chosen of Mystra would have to be a multi-tiered watertight plan, which would require a character to have access to information that no PC should be able to access (i.e. even the most powerful divination/information gathering spells can be blocked by the intervention of a Deity) You would also have to find a way to lure them out into the open, expose themselves, and assume they are not prepared for the usual random assasination attempt, and pray it's simply not a Simulacrum you just blasted into oblivion. In their own bases of operations they are virtually unassailable: Elminster: his tower in Shadowdale isnt exactly some old wooden shed. It is argueably the most well fortified stonghold in Faerun, and the man within it is not exactly the easiest being to overcome... Dove: in Evermeet raising her son (good luck getting there, or even learning that is where she resides) Alustriel: in Silverymoon. In addition to virtually all of the Silver Marshes to rush to her aide, as well as the numerous Harpers who, unbeknowest to her watch out for potential attempts on her life, she is by far the most universally beloved person in Faerun with virtually no "personal" enemies. (obviously Thayans and Zhents resent her, but not to the point of personal emnity or eternal grudges) Storm and Sylune: once again in Shadowdale, in the absolute worst case scenario they could head to Eliminster's tower for safety. Even then, Storm is one of Mystra's personal favorites and often comes to her aid in a crisis. And ever since Sylune surrendered the Scepter of Savras to Azuth he has always watched over and protected her (especially now in her current form). Khelben and Laeral: In their tower in Waterdeep, City of Splendors. Not exactly the most easily assailed structure. The Simbul: rarely in her own palace, or even her own kingdom, or even often on Toril for that matter, cannot be scried upon, shapechanges at will, and eschews anything that may consitute a 'daily routine'....Of course you would probably have far more to worry about if you plan to face her other than simply finding an opportune time and place to stage an assault. Qilue Veladorn: often claimed to be the "weakest" of the sisters, she in fact has not one but TWO goddesses watching over her fate. The Priestesses of the Promenade arent exactly a weak bunch, and it is argueable as to whether or not Qilue's status as a Chosen is considered "common knowledge".
VengefulGazeofGod 07-05-03, 02:12 AM	I could challenge Elminster to a dual. The rules: no magic, let the dead die. How, would the mindbinder class help me? All I wish to do is work a conspiracy through non verbal means. I could do that right now! All the bunnies have been set free! http://burns.thefinaldimension.org/contrib/sarge/BoomSmilie_anim.gif
Sarelle 07-05-03, 07:43 AM	To add to The Simbul's comments I'm pretty sure that if any of the Chosen were attacked in any severity they could just contact/teleport/summon the other Chosen to come to their aide. I think even Shar herself might think twice about taking on El, Khelben and all Seven Sisters.
Savras 07-05-03, 08:33 AM	Originally posted by The Simbul Elminster: his tower in Shadowdale isnt exactly some old wooden shed. It is argueably the most well fortified stonghold in Faerun, and the man within it is not exactly the easiest being to overcome... Khelben and Laeral: In their tower in Waterdeep, City of Splendors. Not exactly the most easily assailed structure. Ahem! Elminsters hovel is nothing in comparison to Undermountain and the Warlocks Crypt. Nothing. Stop that "Everything about the Chosen rocks"- they are super cool, and El is ultra powerful. But his hovel is not the "best gaurded stronghold in Faerūn". I guess what I'm saying here is, let others have their cool points to- you are might turn Halaster to "that dude in the much-tunneled Undermountain" instead of "the mighty mage in the most dangerous dungeon in Faerūn". Also, Larloch takes them both, 'cause his lair is gaurded by a network of spells, an army of vampires and liches archmages and an army of lesser undead. Also, I think the Blackstaff Tower is better gaurded (than El's hovel). And Khelben rocks. Savras Edit: Agreeing with Sarelle.
Xae'an 07-06-03, 08:44 PM	I'm not biased but players with the desire of killing everybody and everything that has combat statistics don't understand the idea of roleplaying. They should not search for another DM, but for another game altogether. Why not just sit down in front of your computer and play Quake 3 or Unreal Tournament and shoot anything that moves? I really think they would be better off in this kind of game. Being the focus of the story does not necessary mean being (or killing) the most powerful character in the whole campaign world and killing a chosen just for boasting with it IS NOT a story, even for an evil campaign. If people suffer from inferiority complexes, they should seek out a psychiatrist, not a DM and they should not ruin their fellow players' campaign. I certainly would not remove a player from the game lightheartedly and fortunately I never had to do it, but if someone goes on a killing spree without a reason other than proofing his power, it's better to get rid of him then to let him wreck the whole campaign, say what you will, it's not just about the Chosen of Mystra but about the spirit of the Forgotten Realms. In my campaign the PCs (and the players, since htey are all relativly new to the game) only know about two of the chosen (The Simbul, as the campaign started in Aglarond and Alustriel since a dwarven PC comes from Mithral Hall and has some basic knowledge about Silverymoon too.) but they don't know (two players do, but none of their characters) knows what 'Chosen of Mystra' means and it's uncertain if they will ever find out. (But I trust in their common sense, that they will not turn mad as they rise to power.)
deadite 07-07-03, 04:55 AM	In my "evil" campaign I have a drow who wishes to reclaim the Pit of Ghaunadaur. As some of you know Qilue Veladorn guards over that place, so she may have to bite the dust. Also I'm joping to include Everaska's fall into my campaign, which would involve the player characters and possible hostile interaction with some Chosen, especially khelben. While Elminster is still gone and others are busy returning him from hell, the players might still have a very difficult time. Frankly Khelben and Qilue are too powerful for the Players to deal with, especially due to the fact that they probably wont be alone... On the other hand the Chosen have powerful enemies, so with a lot of roleplaying, the players might actually pull it off. If they die trying, they'll just roll new characters with diffirent goals. :D
Golem1972 08-12-03, 03:47 PM	Because my character is a shadow adept who worships Shar? Shar hates Mystra, Shar hates Mystras chosen too. Seems like the motivation is there to me. Who stands a good chance against the Chosen of Mystra? The Chosen of other gods of course. Mystras Chosen have (among other things) the ability to repair the weave. What special ability would the Chosen of Shar have? Exactly, the ability to damage the weave, creating areas of wild and dead magic where they would have the advantage over weave using spellcasters. Unless you're going to argue that the Chosen wield deific magic with out being gods themselves, they would be helpless in a dead magic zone (they can probably repair the weave using their silver fire, but that's why you gang up on them). Artemis Cleric of Shar5/Sorcerer3/Shadow Adept1/Mystic Theurge3 (NOT a Chosen by a long shot) He's fairly weak (a 12th level spell caster with access to 4th level spells), and I'm amazed that he's survived as long as he has. So no Uber-Munchkin here, at least not yet. As a side issue, given Shar's portfolio should I have taken a level in thief? Character motivation here is pretty straight forward. He lives only to serve the Lady of Shadows, and his greatest desire is for the Mistress of the Night to allow him to use his meager skills to assist her when she decides to put the mortal upstart Mystra back in her place and take her rightful place as the Queen of All. Player motivation is easy, I thought that the Shadow Adept PrC was kinda cool. After reading it a little though, I started to really think about what taking Shar as a patron really involved. So, our player goals are to wipe out the Chosen of Mystra, because it will help Shar when she confronts Mystra, and possibly to ascend to godhood ourselves (I think Artemis would make a much better Drow god than Lolth). Along the way, we will do our best to slap around as many Harper's as we can. We may also try to straighten out a few of the non-team player evil guys/groups. Or does this sound too much like the over-caffeinated ravings of an UberMunchkin with a sad inferiority complex? :)
Gotrex 08-12-03, 04:20 PM	Xae'an Killing powerful characters is not always about just going on a killing spree there are roleplay reasons for doing so for example your PCs gods being an enemy of mystra such as shar or cyric or the chosen attempting to stop your evil plans (they have a nasty habit of doing this) for example your an epic level evil party with a strong reputation amongst evil organisations the drow hire you as mercenaries to help with there attempts to invade the dale lands which they have been going at for years if your going to invade the dale lands especialy shadowdale and places close to it the most logical thing to do is to try and take out powerful figures like elminster and storm both to remove there might and lower moral of the dale lands soldiers As you can see from this example this isnt just mindless destruction its killing powerful characters for a reason and i see no reason why you would ever stop your PCs from doing this The simbul "Except for the fact that the only way your character (i.e. not YOU) would know of the Name and Song Attunement is if either: a) copies of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Sourcebook are sold in Candlekeep or b) your character is using your own knowledge, which you have procured visa ve reading the sourcebooks, or through message board posts (like this one) which effectively is 'cheating'." Why is this? the chosen aint secretive about them being able to hear people speak there name in RotA khelben freely tells loads of people about it
rmilsop 08-12-03, 05:39 PM	Xae'an - first of all, its you campaign, if you want your players to be angels of holiness to make things easier for you, so be it. That being said, being evil is NOT about "going on a killing spree". I played an evil wizard in our last campaign, in a party of entirely good characters (including a paladin). Through the course of the campaign, I disrupted trade routes, spoiled the year's harvest for several nations, and did (unfortunately) wipe out several towns. How? Minions. Being truly evil isn't about killing everything, its about getting the good guys to give you power of their own free will. So one of your players wants to take on a chosen of mystra? Why? That should be far more important to you than anything else. Find their motivation and turn it to your own purpose. Just for the love of god, let them play their character as they choose.
Xae'an 08-12-03, 07:06 PM	While I agree, that being evil doesn't necessarily mean going on a killing spree, it's quite likely, that a player would act in such a way, because if they are evil and powerful enough to kill a chosen neither their own limits nor moral restrictions would keep those players from killing everthing that gets in their way. Of cause they could also rule as tyrants of their own empire or spread the faith of Shar, but one day if this would get boring to them, it's quite likely that they would kill each and everybody they encounter. The other problem with evil PCs is the question what keeps them together. Good or neutral PCs are usually simply friends that can rely on each other, while evil PCs are likely to kill each other when the question of sharing their prey comes up. They could be worshipers of the same evil god, but this would limit the roleplaying options for each individual character in a tremendous way but might be fine idea of all players agree to be a cult dedicated to Bane, Cyric, Shar or any other evil deity. Needless to say that a mixed campaign that contains good as well as evil characters hardly works for a longer period of time, unless the good side manages to turn their evil companions good or the bad guys manage to corrupt their heroic partners. One thing that still annoys me in that discussion is the fact that everybody who slays a chosen seems to have the deep desire to tell it to the world and post it here. I don't say it's a bad thing to run an evil campaign, you just play the other side. But not everybody who kills Szass Tam, Klauth or Fzoul is soooo proud of it and starts a thread that extends over several pages. To be honest, I have to say that this whole "I killed Elminster" topic is getting fairly boring. If your DM allows you to become level 60something Wizard/Mage Killer/Archmage/[add random overpowered prestige class here] you won't have problems killing Elminster, but that's not something worth discussing in a great deal. Anyway, if there is someone, who still enjoys it: Have fun!
Kindjal 08-12-03, 07:36 PM	Originally posted by Psionycx That can't be right, otherwise Sylune wouldn't have died in that Retributive Strike. She died as a direct result of Weave magic (admittedly self-inflicted). Breaking a magic staff, require the will to sacrifice her own life. Also if Sylune accept to do this sacrifice, Mystra can't break the rules and undo her sacrifice. And Mystra probably accepte Sylune do this sacrifice too. This is an honorable death for one of her choosen.
Ivarrius 08-12-03, 11:34 PM	The only motivations I EVER see in the attempts to or the actual killings of the Chosen, Drizz't, or any other Good Natured, Good Aligned, powerful NPC's are bragging rights and Pride. Why would you bother killing or thinking about killing some of the people who have protected Faerun, and helped keep the world on its feet? Yes, Elminster housed the power of the weave for Mystra, and did so at a very high cost, but can you imagine the repercussions if he did not? It always strikes me as a ploy for fame, pride, greed, and envy. We all know that the High Level NPC's are not the most min/maxed characters out there, but we do know that they are listed for the integral part they play in the story of Faerun and its history. So stop whining when your DM won't let it all happen. I applaud Xae'an for having the guts to say no. I would be happy to play in a good campaign day in day out. That of course, is my opinion, but I am sure that I am not the only one to agree with it all. Somehow evil became THE way to play, and most people I think chose that way because Evil has fewer guidelines, and tends to be more powerful, with less restraint. "I can attack or Kill whomever I want. I am Evil. It doesn't matter who gets hurt, what party member I screw over, or what problems it causes the DM, I am just playing my character" What is your motivation for being a dork? Are you a role player or a ROLL player?
Gotrex 08-12-03, 11:53 PM	so Ivarrius taking my example above about the drow invasion of the dalel lands you dont think that attempting a pre emptive strike on the key defenders such as elminster and storm would be anything more than an attempt on bragging rights and not a logical way of weakening the dale land defences I agree that the chosen should not just be attacked for no reason at all but you seem to be implying that there is no reason at all for it ever happening which just isnt true, in certain events it is a logical option for the PCs
Ivarrius 08-13-03, 12:01 AM	That is only slightly what I was implying. As far as your Dalelands invasion goes, I think it would be folly to send your men to kill the Key defenders, when it would be a much more adequate, and likely prosperous idea to wage war instead on the lands you are hoping to take over. The Chosen aren't just left to die, and never return. Mystra will take them when SHE sees fit, not before. If El is close to falling, you have some form of divine intervention, and another problem on your hands. More Chosen. It just doesn't seem feasible to attack them, because a) it would mean that your character would be acting on OOC knowledge, and b) you would have to be nigh on fearless and foolish to attack them out right. This does not mean they are unworthy of the contemplation, but the act is as close to suicide or a similar invitation to it as possible.
Gotrex 08-13-03, 11:35 AM	While i agree that in most cases attacking the chosen in most cases in suicide when i talk about contemplating it i generaly asume the PCs are up to the job and not just some weak fools who would get slaughtered (this is just for the sake of theory of course) An example of people who could pull this off comes in the princes of shade the princes of shade combined are more powerful than the chosen combined as for divine intervention while i agree it is a big factor it isnt as big a factor as people make out for example mystra failed to save adon who she cares about far more than any of the chosen (remember elminster was the old mystras lover - not midnights) which surgests she doesnt really watch over her key followers as much as people think - even when they are criticaly ill as adon was by no means am i saying killing the chosen is anything but very very hard but it certainly is not imposible and there are harder things to kill in the realms (such as telemont tanthul or larloch)
Astanphaeus 08-13-03, 08:37 PM	Originally posted by Xae'an While I agree, that being evil doesn't necessarily mean going on a killing spree, it's quite likely, that a player would act in such a way, because if they are evil and powerful enough to kill a chosen neither their own limits nor moral restrictions would keep those players from killing everthing that gets in their way. Evil characters are quite capable of maintaining personal limitations and moral restrictions. It's merely that most of their restrictions tend to be a bit... flexible. ;) In any event, LE characters don't have a problem with impulse control. Of cause they could also rule as tyrants of their own empire or spread the faith of Shar, but one day if this would get boring to them, it's quite likely that they would kill each and everybody they encounter. That doesn't seem likely to me at all. As many are fond of pointing out... evil doesn't mean stupid. The other problem with evil PCs is the question what keeps them together. * Mutual interest. * The decree of something bigger and all together ickier than themselves. * Survival. * Friendship. Yes, Evil characters can have emotional connections as well. To some Evil types, screwing a comrade is a completely different thing than screwing a stranger, and they won't do it. Being callous or malicious with those close to you is a whole 'nother level of depravity that not all Evil characters subscribe to. * Any combination of the above Good or neutral PCs are usually simply friends that can rely on each other, while evil PCs are likely to kill each other when the question of sharing their prey comes up. No, they're not. As the many evil organizations in existence demonstrate. Once again, evil doesn't mean stupid. You're referring to a player mentality, not a character mentality. Evil characters can be, and often are, played thoughtfully and intelligently. They could be worshipers of the same evil god, but this would limit the roleplaying options for each individual character in a tremendous way but might be fine idea of all players agree to be a cult dedicated to Bane, Cyric, Shar or any other evil deity. I think it's interesting that you'd call that a limitation. I wouldn't. It's depth vs. breadth. Roleplaying options aren't limited, merely different. Personally, I prefer such focus, because the level of detail reached can be quite rewarding. For example, the Tempurian church in my campaigns is very lush due to the focus its received over the years, with so many PCs being involved in it. Needless to say that a mixed campaign that contains good as well as evil characters hardly works for a longer period of time, Does two years qualify as a long period of time? I'd say that what ultimately matters are the individual character personalities. Not all Evil characters are blood-crazed psychotic maniacs. In fact, I'd say that's a distinct minority; the extreme end of CE. Most evil folk are more along the lines of the slimy business man... and can function quite well in a group of mixed morality... provided, of course, that there's something to gain from the effort. What's particularly amusing is when the Goodly and Evil characters know of their differences... and find that they work well together anyway. Boy, that chaps them both. ;) I had a LG Cavalier and a LE Necromancer in the same group for about a year. They despised each other... but were ridiculously effective together in combat, merely because they were the Lawful end of the party, and thus coordinated their efforts as a matter of course. Naturally, neither would admit to it, but they were, as a team, the anchor that kept the party alive in hostile situations. Outside of those situations they were forever trying to get leverage over one another. The ultimate laugh was the Necromancer falling head-over-heels for the Cavalier's twin sister... who was chaotic... which aggravated them both. To be honest, I have to say that this whole "I killed Elminster" topic is getting fairly boring. If your DM allows you to become level 60something Wizard/Mage Killer/Archmage/[add random overpowered prestige class here] you won't have problems killing Elminster, but that's not something worth discussing in a great deal. Well, I find it boring as well, but to each his own. After all, you can just... not read the thread, right? -- A.
Astanphaeus 08-13-03, 08:44 PM	Originally posted by The Simbul Except for the fact that the only way your character (i.e. not YOU) would know of the Name and Song Attunement is if either: a) copies of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Sourcebook are sold in Candlekeep or b) your character is using your own knowledge, which you have procured visa ve reading the sourcebooks, or through message board posts (like this one) which effectively is 'cheating'. Or the character has sufficient ranks in Knowledge: Arcana to know that names hold power, and doesn't speak the names of powerful wizards, priests, or extra-planer entities, as a simple matter of caution. Which, frankly, I'd consider a given for any character who's in a position to even contemplate this course of action. -- A.
Gotrex 08-13-03, 09:22 PM	adding to Astanphaeus's post alot of people perceive chaotic evil as psychotic maniac type characters which aint true while some chaotic evil characters are that way alot are not for example a CE character can just be an evil person who has a extreme dislike for authority
TinySilverChalice 08-13-03, 09:45 PM	Personally, if I were Ed right now reading this, I'd puke in my beard. He writes out these heros of the realms, these godlike men and women who exist to protect and keep the balance of the world and players just want to use them to put a big notch on their belts of giant's strength. Poor guy. Personally, I don't see the point in playing in a precreated, detailed world if all your group wants to do is waste it all. I have characters that would love to see these nosey, goodie-goodie jerks get what's coming to them; I also have good characters who want to see Bane get whipped and the Black Hand go down. But it's not gonna happen. Why? So much went into the creation of these people and organizations that no one person, no one group, no one god can bring them down. Don't you think Shar would have destroyed the Chosen of Mystra by now if she could? What could be preventing her? Whatever it is, it's the same thing that should be preventing any group of PCs from doing it. The same goes for Fzoul, the Black Hand, the drow, Thay, and every other evil organization. Regardless of what the PCs can do, there's always someone bigger than them with keen interest in keeping things the way they are. In character this person could be a king, an organization, or even a god. Out of character, it should be the DM. Damn I feel like a Harper right now. :D Balance, people! Balance!
Gotrex 08-13-03, 09:59 PM	Because the point of it being your campaign is that you do what you want for it campaigns get boring if they stagnate, people like to shake them up a bit from time to time killing important characters and having nations invade each other and such are ways of doing this and can open up quest options for your PCs and i dont think ed greenwood gives a damn if people kill elminster in there campaigns, why would he? not like they are dieing in official FR oh and the thing that stops shar killing the chosen outright is that she is not alowd to. divine law limits what gods are alowd to do by there portfolio and even if she is alowd to then she is smart enough to not want to start an all out war with mystra because even if she won (which i think she would) it would sap alot of her strength and leave her open to attacks from other enemies you can be sure that if she could get away with it without trouble she would strike elminster down
Ivarrius 08-13-03, 10:16 PM	I agree.. poor Ed. Because the point of it being your campaign is that you do what you want for it campaigns get boring if they stagnate, people like to shake them up a bit from time to time Why not just develop a 'world moulding' spell that changes the way the entire planet runs... like Greater Wish :P ? killing important characters and having nations invade each other and such are ways of doing this and can open up quest options for your PCs So does working with them. ------------------------------------------------ I do agree that Chaotic Evil can be a little less than Maniacal, but at the same time.. explain to me the anti-maniacal behviour of the Drow, a Chaotic Evil SOciety. Yeah ti can work, but they definetly aren't chummy about it at all. No love there, just power and greed. And yeah, it can work, but I would like to see those game mechanics put together between two (or more) PC's instead of a slew of NPC's that 'just do it' for Lolth. Regardless of what the PCs can do, there's always someone bigger than them with keen interest in keeping things the way they are. In character this person could be a king, an organization, or even a god. Out of character, it should be the DM. Damn I feel like a Harper right now. Amen.
Astanphaeus 08-13-03, 10:53 PM	Y'know, the thread started with the following questions: 1. How can a Chosen of Mystra be killed? 2. If anyone did such a thing in their campaign, how did you do it? The question wasn't: should a Chosen of Mystra be killed? It wasn't: can a Chosen of Mystra be killed? It was: how can a Chosen of Mystra be killed? Now, people might have an issue with this being a plotline in their game. That's fine. It's not your game, so you've nothing to worry about. However, to the DM starting this thread, this is a story point that's obviously of some importance, because he went through the trouble to post about it and look for input. Telling him it 1. can't be done (which is ludicrous... it's fiction and fantasy. Anything can be done), or 2. shouldn't be done... doesn't answer the initial questions and so doesn't really help at all. Big, cosmic storylines wherein major NPCs get whacked isn't everyone's cup of tea... and, like anything, it can be overdone, sure. But it's not a wrong way to play. Ed Greenwood's approval isn't required. There is no "proper" way to run a Forgotten Realms campaign. People can do what they want with it. That's what it's there for. If Greenwood had a problem with that, he never would've published the thing in the first place. It's a matter of preference. If players just "want to put a big notch on their belts" -- if that's what flicks their switch -- that's their business. I don't pretend to understand it, but someone else's understanding of their playing style isn't required. A critque of the approach and plotline wasn't requested, but help was. Personally, I know diddly about the Chosen, because I don't use them. Setting NPCs generally play very minor roles in my games, if they're present at all, and I tend to keep away from earth-shattering, epic-level plots. However, I'd be interested to see some genuine, innovative suggestions on how the goal could be reached. From what I'm reading, a lot of the power of the Chosen appears to hinge on Mystra. Perhaps that connection could be temporarily disrupted somehow? It would seem that that would make them particularly vulnerable. Unfortunately, that's all I got. Wish I could offer more. -- A.
Astanphaeus 08-13-03, 11:19 PM	And yeah, it can work, but I would like to see those game mechanics put together between two (or more) PC's instead of a slew of NPC's that 'just do it' for Lolth. I ran a campaign with about 12 players. All Drow. All Evil (mostly Neutral Evil, which is, incidentally, now the dominant Drow alignment, not CE). There were a lot of player characters maneuvering against one another... but no deaths caused by PCs (there was one attempt at an "accident", but that failed). What kept them together... Fear of the reprisal of their betters, then mutual interest, then survival, a universal goal that was best achieved as a group, and a greater "evil" that threatened them. Also over time, a warped sort of attachment developed, particularly between rivals. Because of the environment, it simply wasn't prudent for any of them to kill their comrades. Especially after they had "broke each other in". Besides, it isn't as fun getting the better of your compatriots if they're dead. You don't get to enjoy their humiliation that way. Furthmore, spending decades learning how a nemesis thinks is an investment. Why squander it? "Better the evil you know than the evil you don't know," and all that. If the individual vying for your position is someone you understand, you've a better chance of repelling him than an unknown quantity. Bottomline, any alignment combination is viable as a PC group. It's a question of the individual characters, the attitude of the players, and the backstory. Some combinations are easier to handle than others, obviously, but none are impossible. -- A.
Ivarrius 08-14-03, 01:27 AM	I am not one to never admit that I have been proven worng. Good work Astanphaeus. Sounds like it was a good game.
Crust 08-14-03, 10:10 AM	I'm of a mind to believe that even if a Chosen were "killed," that Chosen, like Sylune, like Obi-Wan, like Gandalf, like Neo, like Kenshiro (Fist of the North Star), and I dare say Jesus Christ, would arrise in a form more powerful than the mortal shell they once inhabited.
Gotrex 08-14-03, 01:38 PM	kinda yes they would go to mystras home plane and live there instead just like all of mystras dead followers
kedi 08-15-03, 08:10 AM	well, chosens are hard to kill but there is an alternative way 1.Work really hard and don't you ever die 2.evolve your pcs to epic level 3.More epic lvl 4.More epic lvl 5.Kill some god and claim their portofolios 6.Kill more 7.More 8.Become a greater god this is it, greater gods can kill every mortal by thinking without acting. My point is: THEY ARE ALMOST INVULNERABLE!!!! lorloch, fzoul, manshoon, they're cool but it's really hard, They are immune to most spells, they are a wonder in spellcasting, even a large army of undead and spellcasters and zulkirs couldn't defeat the Simbul, A number of mage-lords couldn't beat el(It's hard to kill him when there is a "el's evasion" on himself), A great wyrm couldn't eat sylune(but she sacrified herself to beat her, there are more stries to tell, the most easy way to kill a chosen is to become a god, that's my two cents.
thalious 08-15-03, 09:40 PM	A character does not need to be a God or in order to be able to slay a Chosen. Granted, it would be very helpful since the slaying of a Chosen will draw a lot of unwanted attention unto the slayer. Currently my Evil party has slain Fzoul, and have faced the Simbul once--and barely lived to tell of it and now hate her very very much..
Golem1972 08-16-03, 02:25 AM	So, kedi, by your method it would be easier to kill a god than a mortal chosen of a god? If your goal is simply to kill a chosen (no roleplaying involved hear) and add a notch on your tarrasque skin belt then its really not that difficult. All you need is a non-epic mid to high level fighter type or rogue type with access to a magic item containing an anti-magic field (like a ring of spell storing or any wonderous item with it built in). Heck, toss in a couple of fighters and a rogue so they can end it quickly. Add in a barrel of acid, and there's nothing to resserect with out a wish. Before everyone starts chiming in with all of the "this chosen has this defense, or that chosen has that defense, or Mystra wouldn't allow it", NO magic = no magic defenses. And gods don't usually interfere otherwise the harpers would get smacked around on a daily basis.
kedi 08-16-03, 05:08 AM	golem1972, my point is: we are speaking of a 9 people who can dominate world in 48 hours, killing a greater god as sune or bane or tempus or talos is much easier, if you have FaP, check their stats, my two cent is that they are invulnerable, more than gods
Charles Phipps 08-16-03, 05:53 AM	I have a very simple rule about killing Chosen Its like killing Neo (I don't say Jesus for purposes of blasphemy) you cannot harm the actual person. The body itself is simply a shell.....they will not die until 1. The deity wills it or.. Well that's it The players have killed the Chosen of Malar before and Elminster and others have been destroyed but they will be returned to the Earth and their forms by their deity until their purpose is filled.
Gotrex 08-16-03, 09:04 AM	kedi ignore the stats there inacurate acording to stats shar cant use magic when she blatantly can if all of the chosen were to say attack tempus he would laugh at them then cut all there heads off without taking a scratch himself, they are no were near a match for the gods the chosen are no match for a god. no one on faerun is. the same thing would happen if the princes of shade who are more powerful than the chosen were to attack a god
Ivarrius 08-16-03, 10:50 AM	I disagree. Some people are stronger than gods, but maybe not greater gods. How else would a mortal ascend to Deityhood the way they have in the past? To say that a mortal cannot kill a god is to ignore the entire past of Faerun itself. Second, The Chosen, seeing the fighters and rogues coming with an anitmagic field (remember their Constant Detect Magic) would cast their Silver Fire to repair it, then a Disjunction on them, nullifying their items, and hence all their protection. Hell.. they could still trap them with four walls of force cast, or a force cage even, that are unaffected by Anitmagic Field. Now your precious little fighters and rogues are up the creek. And if it really came down to it... I am pretty sure that going into battle you just might have the chosen readying a wish spell, or at the very least, having a ring of three wishes in their inventory. And as far as I know... that spell is well.. The end of all mortal plans against the chosen. I think you people are forgetting that these chosen have been in battle before, and are well prepared to do battle once again. They are not stupid ( unless your dm plays it that way) and they are not to be killed.
Gotrex 08-16-03, 10:55 AM	yeh you right ivarrius very powerful mortals could probably kill weaker lesser gods and demi gods but kedi was surgesting they could take on a greater god which they couldnt one thing i find interesting that has never been explained if you were to drop a dead magic zone on top of a chosen (like the creeping doom could do) would there silver fire cease to work? and also would whatever spell keeps them alive cease to work?
Ivarrius 08-16-03, 10:58 AM	Thats a good Question gotrex. I would hope that a strong mage would play smart enough to ready an action or two, to try to counterspell, or reflect or even just nullify something like that. But it is a definite possibility. I wonder though, would the Silver Fire still work? probably not... it would have to be used from outside of the dead magic zone. Damn... thats a good idea. To kill a chosen of mystra, you have to add levels of creeping doom lol.
Ivarrius 08-16-03, 11:01 AM	It reads as a supernatural ability... does a dead magic zone nullify that?
Gotrex 08-16-03, 11:01 AM	heh Creeping doom is a dracolich who has a CR of 45 :) its not a class or anything :P
Ivarrius 08-16-03, 11:02 AM	yeah i know its not a class.. that was a joke. Hmm reading up on dead magic now.
Gotrex 08-16-03, 11:04 AM	Well i think it would a dead magic zone is an area were the weave basicaly doesnt exist for all intents and purpouses and even though its classed as a supernatural ability its an ability that draws its power from the weave and so logicaly it would be cut off like anything else that uses the weave If you follow the rules to the letter than it might be exempt from dead magic zone but in my opinion it would be effected would be funny if you cast a dead magic zone on them and all there life preserving spells died out and they just drop down dead :) (my DM had this happen to one of our PCs once)
Ivarrius 08-16-03, 11:07 AM	Yup.. functions like an Anti Magic Field, which suppresses Supernatural abilities too. Good find Gotrex.
Ozymandias_79 08-16-03, 07:45 PM	but isn't silverfire used to repair "disruptions in the weave" (AKA dead magic zones)??? Ozymandias_79
thalious 08-16-03, 07:48 PM	yeah spellfire can repair Dead Magic Areas. Other than that I don't much on Spellfire other that what written in the FRCS and MoF, which give crunchy things, but not much background about it.
kedi 08-16-03, 11:25 PM	Gotrex, It is impossible to kill them as gods, but I was talking about avatars, how could el or simbul kill a god when he is sitting on his very confortable chair? :confused: But mortals can take down avatars, like cyric once did, and midnight did. Don't ye agree? -kedi
Gotrex 08-17-03, 05:07 AM	Ah yeh avatars are killable but by your wording it sounded like you meant the god itself :) Ozymandias_79 Silver fire can only repair dead magic zones from outside the dead magic zone if they are inside the dead magic zone they cant draw on the silver fire at all
Enriqe 08-17-03, 02:22 PM	quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Masakado I think that they're cool, too, but that's a metagame issue. The Realms would be a much happier (and safer) place if Orbakh's & Fzoul's threats were permanently done away with. <snip> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- wheres the fun in playing in a happy happy joy joy world Originally posted by Xae'an I fully agree with Masakado on hunting down Fzoul, that would be a great showdown. Those who want to slay the Chosen of Mystra are IMHO merely power gamers, who want to proof that they are the most powerful character in the world. what is the difference between hunting down one of the chosen of mystra or the chosen of bane well atleast my opinion is at least the chosen of bane is uniqe
Xae'an 08-18-03, 06:27 PM	Killing a chosen of Bane is a logical conclusion for any good or neutral campaign. A chosen of Bane is by definition a tyrant and everybody who values freedom would agree on killing a tyrant - Fzoul deserves death for the crimes he comitted and some heroes, in this case the PCs will come to bring justice to Zhentil Keep. The desire of killing a chosen of Mystra on the other hand is merely the result of a player mentality that wants to prove that one's own character is the most powerful - and in the minds of some people this can only be done by slaying the characters with the reputation of being almost invincible - like the chosen of Mystra.
kedi 08-18-03, 06:34 PM	So Xae'an, how to kill a chosen of mystra?
Gotrex 08-18-03, 06:55 PM	Xae'an your logic makes no sense how can killing fzoul be a logical conclusion to a good campaign but killing elminster not be a logical conclusion to an evil campaign that makes no sense at all Just like in the eyes of a good character fzoul deserves death for his crimes in the eyes of an evil character elminster deserves death for his good deeds there absoluterly no difference between the 2 other than elminster being more powerful than fzoul but that isnt really a factor since we are discussing the reasoning behind trying to kill them not the act itself
kedi 08-18-03, 07:06 PM	I agree on gotrex, evil hates good, even more than good hates evil
LordAiden 11-24-07, 09:48 AM	Why would you bother killing or thinking about killing some of the people who have protected Faerun, and helped keep the world on its feet? Yes, Elminster housed the power of the weave for Mystra, and did so at a very high cost, but can you imagine the repercussions if he did not? Don't make my "heroes" in your image. I play two characters fairly regularly: a Lawful/Evil Necromancer/Red Wizard of Thay, and a Chaotic Neutral Bard. The Necromancer's primary goal is power. He probably wouldn't even think of going up against the chosen, but that's not because they're some goody-goody protectors of Faerun.. it's because he doesn't particularly like the idea of being turned to ash. However, if the danger was mitigated in some way, and the promise of reward was enough (ie direct request from Shar herself and promise of above-average shadow-magic powers, with a viable fool-proof plan)... that might change his mind a bit. As of right now I think he'll continue playing power games with the other Red Wizards and keep researching how to become a lich. The bard, on the other hand, would LOVE to be present for the downfall of one of the chosen. He adventures for one reason: the story. Good, evil, doesn't matter, he wants to be there so he can become famous for his poems/stories/songs of heroic or nefarious deeds. I think a first-hand account of the downfall of Elminster would be exactly the kind of story he would be after. This character would be unlikely to participate *too* actively in such a plot, and would be even less likely to engineer it, but I don't think he could resist tagging along with the others who were involved. Just because they're percieved as the good-guys doesn't mean that there are no RP reasons to want them out of the picture. Killing the Chosen, yeah sure it would give bragging rights, but there are much more important things than bragging to a lot of characters (except maybe my bard).
selunatic2397 11-24-07, 11:27 AM	I have never had a campaign with evil PCs do anything but screw with each other and act like a serial killer with ADHD. For over 20 years of being a DM, they have always done this... I am not saying that your campaign mileage may vary, but with my personal experiences, I now never allow any evil player characters in my games. Heck, I don't even want to have a neutral player character...but only because my gamers would think he's just being secretly evil just to screw with the campaign.
LordAiden 11-24-07, 12:02 PM	I have never had a campaign with evil PCs do anything but screw with each other and act like a serial killer with ADHD. For over 20 years of being a DM, they have always done this... I am not saying that your campaign mileage may vary, but with my personal experiences, I now never allow any evil player characters in my games. Heck, I don't even want to have a neutral player character...but only because my gamers would think he's just being secretly evil just to screw with the campaign. The problem is the players, not the alignment. As a DM I would focus more on the character's personality, not their alignment. Sure an evil character may be a sociopath, and those could cause problems in campaigns. I can understand not including them. The way I play my Evil characters however generally works well with any campaign. I tend to take the view that a smart villain will be seen as a hero to all those who *think* they know him well. What is that old quote... "The greatest trick the Devil pulled was convincing the world he doesn't exist." An evil character may do outwardly "good" things, if they serve his purpose, and alienating those you travel with does not serve your purpose. The best example goes back to my L/E Necro/Red Wizard. He travels with several good characters. They're not really aware of his true nature, although he does come across as a bit arrogant and egocentric at times. They serve a valuable purpose to him, so it's in his best interest to keep at least somewhat in their good graces. Evil characters can be extraordinary fun to play, balancing motivation against the need to conceal that motivation, but by the same token it can be difficult to play well. It sounds like the characters you've had experience with aren't Chaotic, Lawful, or Neutral Evil, but Stupid/Evil.
Alediran 11-24-07, 01:56 PM	Dead Magic Zones can't "be thrown", they are very difficult to make without epic events, it takes the death of a god to make one, or something at that level. And Mystra would repair it inmediately if it threatened one of her Chosen, plus DMZ have a fixed size and position, you would only need to get out of the zone and it becomes useless. Further, in 2nd edition Dead and Wild Magic Zones never affected the Chosens because they where directly plugged to Mystra, they didn't needed the Weave to use magic, thanks to the Silver Fire they carry. In 3ed Elminster automatically qualifies for the Initiate of Mystra feat that allows a person to cast spells in a DMZ. Both Simbul and Masked One know even more tactics to nullify a DMZ.
LordAiden 11-24-07, 04:14 PM	Getting back to the OP, if you truly wanted to implement a threat of death to one of the chosen, then you can easily take some liberties for the sake of your storyline. Since Shar jumps on the opportunity to call Mystra out, why not have the threat be from some powerful artifact attuned to disrupt the connection between Mystra and the Chosen in question? If it were (secretly) imbued with this power by Shar it could concievably have the power to do what you need it to do. If that's not to your liking, perhaps dig into one of the ancient civilizations for a powerful spell/ritual/item which could have similar effect. So long as all you're really going for is the threat and not the actual death, then I think you can be a lot more vague about the details. In fact, regardless of what the threat actually is, it's unlikely your players will know the exact nature of the threat, and if Mystra destroys it before it can cause harm, then they may never truly find out. Vague references like "an ancient object of immense power" can be sufficient.
selunatic2397 11-25-07, 07:12 PM	Actually LordAiden, the gamers I used to game with will probably fit in just fine with the 4ED crowd. :yuck:
MaskedOne 11-26-07, 03:52 PM	Dead Magic Zones can't "be thrown", they are very difficult to make without epic events, it takes the death of a god to make one, or something at that level. And Mystra would repair it inmediately if it threatened one of her Chosen, plus DMZ have a fixed size and position, you would only need to get out of the zone and it becomes useless. Further, in 2nd edition Dead and Wild Magic Zones never affected the Chosens because they where directly plugged to Mystra, they didn't needed the Weave to use magic, thanks to the Silver Fire they carry. In 3ed Elminster automatically qualifies for the Initiate of Mystra feat that allows a person to cast spells in a DMZ. Both Simbul and Masked One know even more tactics to nullify a DMZ. Theoretically, the creation of a DMZ requires little more than a wish and Mystra not killing you for trying to carve chunks out of her flesh but as most people prefer not to have Mystra respond to what is literally a direct assault on her person, that's only a theory. Past that and ignoring 2E mechanics because I don't really need them. The Chosen are not sustained by a spell and the power that does sustain them is no more likely to fail than the negative energy that permits undead to operate freely (minus spells, spell-like abilities and supernatural powers) in Dead Magic. The +10 bonus to constitution will probably also remain but since I don't have the FRCS directly in front of me, that's only a probable. All Chosen who are primarily Arcane spellcasters, this means Laeral, Alustriel, El, Khelben, the Simbul, the Srinshee, Sylune and possibly one or two that I've missed have access to level 9 spells. Invoke Magic from Lords of Madness will operate in Dead Magic, Anti-Magic and various Dead Magic planes, it's a swift action casting that can be followed immediately by a Dimension Door outside the DMZ. The only entity listed above that is unlikely to have some variant of it prepped is the Simbul who also happens to have Epic Spellcasting. Epic Spells are not automatically blocked by Anti-Magic and since Dead Magic shares most of it's properties, they may break through that too. This is provided the DM is nice. I'd just give them all a ring that mimics Initiate of Mystra and move on because I despise the concept of anti-magic as an ultimate weapon for mage-assassination. Regardless, while defeating any of the Chosen is possible and anti-magic (or dead-magic) may play a role, the use of either as a cover for fighters is one of the most obvious, cliche, tiresome tricks in existence and any spellcaster NPC over level 21 has at least 1 possible countermeasure depending on build and since it has been attempted against the Chosen in the past, the idea that they wouldn't prepare for it in the future is a good way to get PCs killed. Sorry, Alediran, the majority of this post is not directed at you but I'm on a time constraint and too lazy to go hunting for the the other posts it applies to.
LordAiden 11-26-07, 07:49 PM	Actually LordAiden, the gamers I used to game with will probably fit in just fine with the 4ED crowd. :yuck: Well, with 4E Evil Paladins and mutant dryads and cuddly orcs and whatnot, alignment probably won't matter anyway =)
Sir_Shadow 11-27-07, 04:19 PM	Well, with 4E Evil Paladins and mutant dryads and cuddly orcs and whatnot, alignment probably won't matter anyway =) Well if Cthulhu can be made into a cute cuddly little plushie......ok now wait thats just as wrong (though far more amusing) as cuddly orcs. Orcs are not cuddly. Orcs don't even cuddle with each other (and who can blame them they're orcs eww)
Alediran 11-28-07, 11:30 AM	Sorry, Alediran, the majority of this post is not directed at you but I'm on a time constraint and too lazy to go hunting for the the other posts it applies to. I know, don't worry. I'm part of the Hands of Karsus for a reason (that is, not being a troll)
OrderofUhlrik 11-29-07, 01:28 PM	This is something I have an idea in regards to. If your would be killer is in the employ of the Zhents, he could appropriate their three magic golems, which have 100% MR, absorb all spells on cast, and any magic effects that are on the caster are drained in one round. So contigencies, shields, Elminsters Evasion, all of it. If said chosen didn't realize the Zhents were carrying the golem with them until too late (Say in a lead box to prevent detect magic or any other detection from showing him.) It could work, in theory at least.
Alediran 11-29-07, 03:43 PM	This is something I have an idea in regards to. If your would be killer is in the employ of the Zhents, he could appropriate their three magic golems, which have 100% MR, absorb all spells on cast, and any magic effects that are on the caster are drained in one round. So contigencies, shields, Elminsters Evasion, all of it. If said chosen didn't realize the Zhents were carrying the golem with them until too late (Say in a lead box to prevent detect magic or any other detection from showing him.) It could work, in theory at least. They can still be stoped by a Forcecage spell, it's neither a buff spell nor a direct cast spell. And it's not like any lowly servant could take out those golems, they aren't just a +5 sword, they have a purpose and a mission to acomplish.
OrderofUhlrik 11-29-07, 05:02 PM	True, but if the Zhents are actually sending someone to kill a chosen would it not follow they would give them any resource available to destroy said chosen, and if I remember correct, they have three anyhow, so it would be an acceptable gamble. Forcecage wouldn't work either, because he saps all magic in an area, hell the things even drain magic items, so the forcecage would last, well not very long considering even the almighty anti-magic shield lasts all of 5 rounds I believe. All I was getting at was that a magic golem would go a long way in assisting a plan to kill the chosen. Because even if the magic golem was not the assassin in said case, it could damn sure serve as a capabale distraction.
Alediran 11-29-07, 05:23 PM	Unless those golems are made using the shadow weave they are a no-issue for the chosens. They become a threat to one of Mystra's soldiers? They are rendered useless by the Lady of Mysteries.
Green Elven Vampire 11-29-07, 05:27 PM	Why bother trying to kill a Chosen of Mystra when WoTc is doing a fine job by themselves!! So like what is it up to now?... around like 4 Chosen of Mystra have been killed off by WoTc?
MaskedOne 11-29-07, 06:01 PM	Unless those golems are made using the shadow weave they are a no-issue for the chosens. They become a threat to one of Mystra's soldiers? They are rendered useless by the Lady of Mysteries. It is not the Lady's custom to guarantee the personal safety of her Chosen against all threats. The illusion that it is her custom to do so is one of the more common complaints and is probably one of the delusions driving WotC's plans to execute Lady Mystra in an idiotic fashion. Bypassing that, it is not the custom of the Chosen to stand around and die. Unless magic golems prevent spellcasting in the area, a Chosen who is not ready to oppose one, need merely teleport away. Further, if their absorption abilities are based on SR or spell immunity than instant conjurations will bypass their defenses.
OrderofUhlrik 11-29-07, 06:14 PM	No, magic golems absorb magic, plain and simple. If you stick one in a Wild Magic zone, it eventually absorbs the whole thing and becomes bigger/stronger. So its not based on Spell Resistance, but on sheer ability to absorb magic in any form. The only means of destroying one is using non-magic or a wish followed by magic. As well, I realize chosen just don't stand around and die. But a magic golem works thusly(According to the write-up in the compendium I have): *Wizard casts teleport without error near magic golem* *Wizard finishes spell with a prodigious flourish, but the arcane energy is absorbed as he casts.* *Magic golem proceeds to blast Wizard into dust* So, say Zhents set up camp someplace nearby a chosen with a leadbox somewhere in the camp to house said golem. The Chosen would most likely desire to remove the Zhents from his territory. Now, if the Zhents are capable enough they may be able to defeat lesser minions the Chosen sends their way. Exasperated, the Chosen moves to destroy the now weakened Zhents. Teleports a safe distance away and probably begins casting some devestating magic from a fair distance off with contigencies and shields to a ridiculous point. Magic golem is let loose, it beelines for strong magic to feed on, so the Chosen is like a buffet. This thing moves ridiculously fast for something not flying and can time-stop in a 100' radius and can blast targets 75 yards away with its normal attack. So, unless a Chosen was expecting this sort of suprise (Which is entirely possible as well) the golem would at LEAST serve as a distraction, which was my original point. >.<
GoldDragon 12-03-07, 08:31 AM	The Chosen are ageless, but not immortal in the strict sense of the word. While they can't be poisoned/diseased, and they heal very fast, they can still be slain by inflicting enough damage. This is why Sylune is dead. She broke a Staff of the Magi to destroy a dragon and was consumed in the blast. Yeah, with spells like Reincarnation and various versions of Clone spells it's a wonder that she chooses to stay in that form. It is even possible by divine intervention to "Flesh out" the dead so why Mystra leaves her Chosen a Spectral Harpist when Tyr has previously had "Undead" then living Paladins (as reward for service) in his Service is also Questionable. In fact a Wizard of mine developed a spell called "Ghost to Flesh&Bones" to cast on attacking incorpeal undead to make them "mortal" so they can be killed with normal weapons.