Post/Author/DateTime	Post
WraithXIII 07-27-03, 12:39 AM	Yeah, this topic is about what it says, I think killing the old coot wouldn't be too hard. Don't get me wrong, he is a powerful person in the realms but let's face it, with the right attacks, anyone can take him out. I know many of you have a soft spot for him, even I do to an extent, but sometimes, someone needs to do something drastic to change the face of Faerun. I mean imagine the effects it could have, I would love to do it myself, but that would **** off my character's father! Give me your thoughts people!
Jagermeister 07-27-03, 12:58 AM	Elminster has never played a role in the slightest in any FR game I have ever played in or DMed. For all points and purposes, he could be considered dead anyhow. If we never see anything of him or his actions, he might as well not even exist anyway. (It's that whole...if a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it...) As for the ease of killing Elminster, it's possible I suppose. I'm not one for Uber-NPCs anyway... :rolleyes:
Kuje31 07-27-03, 01:17 AM	Originally posted by WraithXIII Yeah, this topic is about what it says, I think killing the old coot wouldn't be too hard. Don't get me wrong, he is a powerful person in the realms but let's face it, with the right attacks, anyone can take him out. I know many of you have a soft spot for him, even I do to an extent, but sometimes, someone needs to do something drastic to change the face of Faerun. I mean imagine the effects it could have, I would love to do it myself, but that would **** off my character's father! Give me your thoughts people! I guess I always fail to see why you need to kill iconic characters to change the face of Faerun. Just don't use them then if you have a problem with them. And I'm sorry but Elminster has safe guards and contingincys(sp?) all over the place in case he dies. But I stress it again, why do the iconics have to be involved or die to change the face of Faerun? I use iconics when they are needed other wise, THEY are busy and off doing thier own thing, and there are at least 40+ iconics that exist in FR. And even with them there, my version of FR is a lot different then canon realms. The iconics cant be every were all the time. That is what adventurers are for. Shrug if some one wanted to say invade Tethyr, then the iconic's are busy, except for the King and Queen of Tethyr. Sure they have allies with the Harpers but Storm and El are busy fighting off a attack from Zhent Keep or maybe a invasion from the planes or they are just not home and are busy else where. Now if it makes sense that a PC wanted to rule over Tethyr then I can see why the King and Queen might need to die. But I just never understood the "I don't like El and he needs to die, for no reason, except that he is a Iconic." school of thought. Most PC's (again not the person playing the character) would most likely not know much about the iconics. Storm? Oh yeah she's just a bard right? Elminster? He's that cranky sage who lives in Shadowdale. Khelben? He is a mage and lives in Waterdeep right? The Simbul? She rules Aglarond and she is insane right? Etc. That is about all most people who live in FR would know. They wouldnt know El is a Chosen and is 1000+ years old, etc.
Dracoth 07-27-03, 02:50 AM	I think people might want to kill him becuase he's used as such a legendary figure throughout the game world. I know killing him has crossed my mind on an occasion or two. Heck opening up the FRCS for the first time and reading his stats got me thinking about how I could kill him, hah. I don't really see a reason as to why someone should kill him unless they had a personal feud with him (or his/her character's family or city was devestated by him in the past). If you do go after him, good luck and don't fudge up the dice rolls to help yourself HAH. I guess if anything I would want to kill him so my character could have his eversmoking pipe. Yeah that's cool, I think I'll make an eversmoking cigarette for some roguish character. What? No cigarettes? I'm the DM and I say.. LET THERE BE CIGARETTES!!! *CLASH, BOOM, CRASH* Anyway, if you do decide to kill him, just make sure that you're not going to need or want him in any of your future adventures in AD&D. Ok that's about it. -Dracoth
Darkmistress 07-27-03, 05:59 AM	Oh, Eru bless. You've already accomplished the first step; you actually spell "Elminster" right. On the other hand, this topic's come up quite a few times. Do a search. "Elminister" -- *snickers* -- seems to be a popular spelling, in case you can't find anything relevant typing "Elminsters".
Yamo 07-27-03, 08:51 AM	Some people just want to kill him because he's omnipresent in FR products and they personally find him to be very annoying. Sort of revenge for having to plow through pages and pages of his munchkiney antics and formulaic "wit" in various sourcebooks over the years. Nothing wrong with that.
Ivarrius 07-27-03, 09:57 AM	Killing Elminster is possible, provided you leave Mystra out of it, and have your PC's of equal level (or CR) and that the PC's would have studied all of his abilities. He is safeguarded quite heavily by all his spells, his immunities, and his experience as an Ancient Faerunian being. He is so intertwined with FR that it ouwld be very difficult to explain why and how he died, as well as why no one would have stepped in, including Mystra should he have been close to death. Though I don't understand the fascination with, or the reasons for, killing Elminster.
Gotrex 07-27-03, 11:48 AM	my party once killed him off just for gold :) we were an epic level evil party whos main driving force was greed and our characters wanted to get filthy rich before retiring to build there castles or whatever (characters turn into NPCs and we start new campaign) so we offered to kill elminster and we offered this to thay, the zhents and the drow without telling them of the deals we made with the others (basicaly trippling our payout) way we killed him was we used his obsession with interfearing with things against him to lure him into a trap (we forced an orcish warlord to lead his horde against the dale lands and gave him an magic orb that had some spells on it like fireball that the orc could use but its main purpouse was it radiated magical and evil energy to attract elminsters attention) elminster soon came with an army from shadowdale to put a stop to things when the orcish horde had ravished a god portion of the dale lands and was getting closer to shadowdale and we ambushed him when he did unfortunatly our drow cleric was killed in the battle but we managed to kill him and got payed 3 times over by the 3 factions we did get hunted by the other chosen for a while but they didnt have much luck due finding us due to lack of survivors from the battle and eventualy we had them blame it on the thayans (well it was partialy true :)) by providing fake witnesses who were most low ranking red wizards we had charmed. and our evil party lived happily ever after :P people always try to think of some far fetched reason for killing a powerful figure like elminster but never seem to realise that his high profile simply makes him a big walking bag of gold if you have the power to pull it off :)
Ivarrius 07-28-03, 12:13 AM	That is the dumbest thing I have EVER heard. First of all, What level was your group? Musta been like all level 43's, because Elminster's CR is 45. Second, how did you get past his contingency spells he has cast at all times, his own personal 'Elminster's Evasion', his 'Chosen of Mystra' Immunities and the rest of his unbelieveable immunities? Third, and here is a big one, Why would the other chosen give up on hunting you down, when they have direct contact with Mystra, and could ask her what happened to Mystra's own lover? You would be hunted to the end of your days, which would be swiftly and mercilessly handed to you. Fourth, another good one, A chosen ability is to Detect Magic continuously, and as per the spell, after a few rounds, the school of magic would be revealed, in which case they would deduct (being the fairly experienced MAGIC users that they are) that those red Wizards you 'charmed' were under the effects of a 1st level spell? Fifth, in Elminster's Character write up, it specifically says pp 7 FRCS " The strongest of Mystra's Chosen rarely moves directly against his foes, preferring to work through younger and more vigorous heroes." Why would he head an army against an invasion by an orc horde ? That is ridiculous. Sixth, Alustriel, another of the Chosen , has a supernatural ability called name and song attunement, which, whenever her name or the rune of the chosen is spoken, she hears it and the next 9 words that person says. This would aid in aborting silly plans that involve targeting a chosen of Mystra, giving her and the rest of the chosen a tip off on actions or plans against them. Seventh and final, he carried all his gold and items toward this orc lord? Elminster's final words - " Apprentices!!! Gather all my things! All my gold, all my items and worldly belongings! We must head out to fight some dastardly Orcs!! Quick.. all the wealth of the chosen away!!!" Now please.. help me understand how you got past all of this, or how anyone would, in order to kill Elminster. You would have to have a DM who ignored enough rules to even remeber what game you were playing. Sorry... but it wouldn't work. Deal with it.
AberrationDeluxe 07-28-03, 12:36 AM	Eh, killing the Big E is more than a little tough, to be sure. However, I think if you peruse the boards (I hear the search feature is invaluable), you'll find a wealth of information on the subject. And Ivarrius, where do you get off judging what is feasible and what isn't feasible in somebody else's campaign? A little skepticism is understandable, but to straight out rule that the DM must not have known what he was doing is going a little too far. Best to keep your opinions to yourself, I think. (Personally, a character of mine is hoping to off El, if only for the fame and glory that comes with defeating one of the most powerful beings in the Realms. If you can come up with any particularly effective strategies, mention them. The old coot has had his day, methinks .:smirk: )
Ivarrius 07-28-03, 01:12 AM	Well, in order to kill Elminster as done in above post, you would have to ignore a whole whack of rules that are in place for a reason. And in my post above that, I do agree that it could be possible to Kill him, but granted, only under extremely strange circumstances. And Ivarrius, where do you get off judging what is feasible and what isn't feasible in somebody else's campaign? Where do I get off judging? By reading the sourcebooks and the rules. Ere go, my post I stand behind. Yet I am not so sure I actually said someone didn't know what they were doing rather I implied that it would have taken more than said characters could take on unless the DM allowed Elminster to forget all the tactics he once knew, aswell asl ignore the seven reasons posted above. And as far as keeping opinions to oneself, whose opinion should I express here? If not my own, than please, point me to those I can re-express and plagerize, for I seem to be the only one saying what I am.
Esturanafas 07-28-03, 01:28 AM	Originally posted by Ivarrius Well, in order to kill Elminster as done in above post, you would have to ignore a whole whack of rules that are in place for a reason. And in my post above that, I do agree that it could be possible to Kill him, but granted, only under extremely strange circumstances. Wow that is summing it up pretty well Ivarrius! I have a player in my campaign that has opinions very similar to your own. And listening to his arguments about not being able to kill the Big Guy, he has convinced me. Originally posted by Ivarrius Ere go, my post I stand behind. Yet I am not so sure I actually said someone didn't know what they were doing rather I implied that it would have taken more than said characters could take on unless the DM allowed Elminster to forget all the tactics he once knew, aswell asl ignore the seven reasons posted above. I agree here as well. Rules are rules. I say that there are some explanations to how all these rules were bypassed in Gotrex's campaign. So, I say to Gotrex, "If it happened, explain it!" P.S. Ivarius can I join the Coalition?
Jagermeister 07-28-03, 01:38 AM	The most important reason why you can't kill Elminster is that it would make Ed Greenwood cry. :(
bigbie 07-28-03, 03:12 AM	Originally posted by AberrationDeluxe ...to straight out rule that the DM must not have known what he was doing is going a little too far. I don’t think Ivarrius was trying to straight out rule that the DM did not know what he was doing but rather he was observing the DM was in serious neglect of foundation rules of the campaign setting, and maybe that the DM is underestimating the Lover of the Goddess of ALL MAGIC in the fact that He is the closest thing to invulnerable and undefeatable by a band of evil characters between the levels of 21-30 (assuming that they all have concentrated on one class). He is a CR 45, which means that if you even managed to trick him out of hiding ( with an Orc warlord wielding a evil emanating fireball spouting crystal ball ) He is designed to give 4 Characters of at least level 40 an extreme challenge, but you chances are slim to none. What, with all his safeguards and a girlfriend that controls all the magic in the world!!!!!!!!! I don’t want to bust any bubbles but IMHO the big-E is one tough cookie. PS (a little off topic but...) Originally posted by AberrationDeluxe Best to keep your opinions to yourself, I think. You may be right but then what would these msg boards be. Plus what you say is redundant. Don’t get angry, because I know you are waiting for "someone" to post on this thread. Just waiting there hitting refresh, refresh, refresh, refresh.... Also don’t be oversensitive about opinion, its up to you to adopt it. If you don’t, then don’t get aggressive you maybe wrong too. :)
Ozar 07-28-03, 11:42 AM	The revised Elminster in the Epic Level Handbook is "only" CR 39. Which means those same hypothetical Level 40 PCs actually have Elminster at a disadvantage. Anyway, the poster who described their defeat of the Sage of Shadowdale never said what level the PCs were, so for all we know they were Level 50 (Although since one of them died, I'm guessing it was a much closer thing.)
Adrian Moonbow 07-28-03, 12:55 PM	Maybe they created the all-powerful new epic spell: 'Kill Elminster' or 'Eliminate Iconic Character' or maybe even 'Unchoose Chosen' :D :D :D Opinions are here to be shared (or be argued against)! This is an academic discussion, and I still think kuje31 said it best: Most PC's (again not the person playing the character) would most likely not know much about the iconics. Storm? Oh yeah she's just a bard right? Elminster? He's that cranky sage who lives in Shadowdale. Khelben? He is a mage and lives in Waterdeep right? The Simbul? She rules Aglarond and she is insane right? Etc. *plink* (my 50 cent)...
Yamo 07-28-03, 02:30 PM	There's nothing wrong with having some fun. If offing some "cranky sage" because the GM and players just plain don't like him is their idea of fun, more power to them! P.S. In my campaigns, he IS just a "cranky sage." no god humping, no being Chosen of anybody, no cheesy invincibility magic, no uberpowers, no spellfire. Just a somewhat above average wizard who lives in Shadowdale. Any party of mid to high-powered characters could kill him in a fight relatively easily. Oh no! I'm not "canon!" Some rabid novel fanboy better stake me through the heart or something quick! :rolleyes:
Gotrex 07-28-03, 04:03 PM	i should of explained more to my story since i should of guess it would get riped apart by people the party was roughly (this happened quite a while ago i cant remember every exact detail) Male Duegar warrior - 40 Female Human Thief - 39 Female Drow Cleric - 34 (she was the "weak" member of the party if you can use the term weak for a level 34 character) Male Shadovar wizard - 39 Male Human wizard - 40 as you can see it is an extremely powerful party which is why we wanted to retire it since being this powerful got really boring really fast as someone already pointed out elminsters CR is 39 our party was sufficient level to kill him that answers your first point i think second point We are guilty of this one The DM decided not to have elminster zap away because it would make the entire thing alot more boring for all of this run up to acumilate in elminster vanishing (yeh i know alot of people will say thats not right and we should be burnt at the stake or somthing :P) Third Mystra doesnt keep watch on her chosen 24/7 and our DM had her busy doing somthing. the main reason for this is he did not want us upheaving the campaign more by killing even more chosen. im not saying our group could defeat all the chosen but if they entered into a battle with our group i bet we could take down 1 or 2 (maybe even more if we had time to call in some allies who ow us favors)before we all died and our DM did not want that. fourth as i noted above we had a shadovar in our group correct me if we were wrong but chosen cant detect magic drawn from the shadow weave can they? fifth your probably right on that one, DM didnt play elminster exactly right but he has directly intervened in things in the past so i dont think that was to much of a minor error on his part sixth Our party survived to level 39/40, they aint stupid and the chosen have never made much of a secret of this ability any person looking to strike at one of the chosen who has the least bit of intelligence will know not to say there names. seventh when did i say we looted anything from elminster? we got all our money from the zhents the thayans and the drow because we had hired ourselves out to all of them to assasinate elminster hope that answers most of your questions and as i said realise there are some holes but wecan be forgiven for making a few mistakes right? :)
Azzadar 07-28-03, 05:19 PM	I like how Gotrex's group ambushed Elmister. Personally, I don't use many established characters. Like Jagermeister said, he might as well be dead.
BITING-GNOME 07-28-03, 07:00 PM	why not try the tarasque first. he wont have any spells to protect him and is just as well known. Then work your way up. Try Szas Tam. El is just to hard.
GoodOlWillickers 07-28-03, 08:42 PM	I'm not trying to insult anyone, but I think that this needs to be said by someone. Unless it's already been said. If that's true I apoligize in advance. But if you can't change the face of Faerun without killing off the iconic characters, then you should be more creative. If that doesn't make sense written down, I just wanna let everyone know that it made a lot more sense in my head. Peace -Will http://www.angelfire.com/md2/willspalace
Gotrex 07-28-03, 09:30 PM	yeh it makes sense :) killing iconic characters is just 1 way of changing the realms its also probably one of the most insignificant aswell in the long term. Elminster dying is nothing compared to for example cormyr being conquered in terms of long term affects on the face of the realms but its always a popular one because most of the iconic characters provide a fantastic battle :)
Azzadar 07-29-03, 02:34 AM	That battle must have been crazy. I would love to read the play by play. A friend of mine is starting an epic level FR campaign that takes place at the end of the Githyanki Incursion (brought to us by Paizo). The story is similar to the Time of Troubles except the gods disappear. I'm trying to get a LE Red Wizard approved. I don't think the rest of the players are down for it. I just thought of something: Elminster vs a tarasque
kedi 07-29-03, 03:37 AM	Originally posted by WraithXIII Yeah, this topic is about what it says, I think killing the old coot wouldn't be too hard. Don't get me wrong, he is a powerful person in the realms but let's face it, with the right attacks, anyone can take him out. I know many of you have a soft spot for him, even I do to an extent, but sometimes, someone needs to do something drastic to change the face of Faerun. I mean imagine the effects it could have, I would love to do it myself, but that would **** off my character's father! Give me your thoughts people! Why does everybody wants to kill Elminster is a question, thats for sure. But why not the Simbul? She is "the Sorcerer" of Faerun and "the most powerful spellcaster" in Toril.(you can check it with Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 3.0) Alright, El has an CR 39(!) and the Simbul has CR 36, but don!t forget that El has some useless classes (such as 2lvl rogue, 1 lvl fighter, 3 lvl cleric of Mystra) but Simbul has 20 lvl sorcerer 10 lvl wizard, 2 lvl archmage. And how could you killed el, gortax? I guess your DM doesn't know anything about old sage of shadowdale. Check the unique spell "elminsters evasion" and discuss it later. :D ( by the way, elminster was in love with mystra, but she died and the recent mystra is midnight and i guess nobody reads the campaign setting, elminster and simbul are lovers ) Originally posted by Gotrex i should of explained more to my story since i should of guess it would get riped apart by people the party was roughly (this happened quite a while ago i cant remember every exact detail) Male Duegar warrior - 40 Female Human Thief - 39 Female Drow Cleric - 34 (she was the "weak" member of the party if you can use the term weak for a level 34 character) Male Shadovar wizard - 39 Male Human wizard - 40 as you can see it is an extremely powerful party which is why we wanted to retire it since being this powerful got really boring really fast And how could you so powerful, you killed seven sisters, zulkirs of thay, halaster, manshoon, fzoul chemberyl etc? I'm just curious this time, no sarcasm, cause I want to play an epic game too :)
Ivarrius 07-29-03, 11:08 AM	Alright, with some of those things unplayed or left out, like Mystra Being busy (which I posted in a different thread about Incursion, saying keeping Mystra busy would be 'A' way of some way weakening the chosen) and Elminster not using his safeguards, then I will agree it will be possible to Kill him. But be warned, he wouldn't be dead Long. In light of this, you didn't really 'Kill Elminster' at all though. Leading back to my point, you cannot just expect to kill Elminster, unless some prety hefty rules are ignored. Those are simply the facts. Sorry if I came off sounding a little rude about it. But I ten to be a bit of a rules Junkie, because I find it to be the easiest way to keep a campaign in order, and keep everyone happy overall. If its 50 50, it should be so. And My bad about him bringing his money, that was an oversight on my end.
Gotrex 07-29-03, 11:13 AM	Kedi That last sentance didnt exactly make sense but i think what you were asking is how we got to such high level Short answer is that we played to much :P though we did not start at level 1 all characters started at level 20 because we wanted this to be an epic level campaign though everyone in the group was required to have a detailed history of there character so that it was explained how they were level 20 we didnt just have level 20 characters apear from thin air :)
WraithXIII 07-29-03, 12:12 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 I guess I always fail to see why you need to kill iconic characters to change the face of Faerun. Just don't use them then if you have a problem with them. And I'm sorry but Elminster has safe guards and contingincys(sp?) all over the place in case he dies. But I stress it again, why do the iconics have to be involved or die to change the face of Faerun? First of all, we don't have problems with iconic characters, this is a what if scenario. Like 'What if the real Elminster was supplanted by a evil Elminster from a different plane of Faerun? How would you kill him?' I like to think the realm of Faerun which is written about and the subject of game products is what I call Prime Faerun. Now you consider how many people play in the Realms, for each game is an 'alternate Faerun'. So what is to preclude the possibility of the above happening? Nothing. This is a purely speculative thread. In our game, Elminster doesn't like me and hates my deific father, who Elminster attempted to assassinate. My PC's father warned Elminster to show more respect, threatened to cut off the weave from him, then gave him one of three towers raised in faerun, The Arcane Tower of Waterdeep. As for taking out Elminster, two words. Antimagic Aura. Dead Magic. Antimagic Field. Any of these places and spells would render El near impotent as far as his magic.
bigbie 07-29-03, 08:59 PM	ok.... if you dont have any "house rules" for you campain or "pure" so-to-speak. there is no freaking way you can kill elmister with out a highly elaborate scheme involving the minipulation of a GodLike status. But maybe i have too much respect for the 'old coot'
Respen Starym 07-30-03, 12:48 AM	i am a fan of Elminster, but i see both sides of this. Many of my players have tried to kill elminster most died, but many just forgot or got bored. their are many ways to kill him, i imagine, but very few will work permently.... as fo the anti magic and dead magic zones i'm pretty sure elminsters silver fire ability can nagate those, at least for a small amount of time. But for all of you looking to kill elmister take comfert that Dimensional Anchor (our a modified version of it) can compleatly negate Elminsters Evasion, and any other teleportation spells, and you might just be able to trap his soul near the spire of Sigil, wich prevents Mystra from revivng him.
kedi 07-30-03, 02:17 AM	That's a cool thing, but wasn't the game boring when you were lvl20? :) And wouldn't be more cool if you reached lvl20 by yourself? :fight!: :king: :fight!:
Gotrex 07-30-03, 11:27 AM	Well before this we did alot of non epic level campaigns the point of this campaign was we wanted to try out all the epic stuff and it was fun and it wasnt to easy untill we got in to the mid 30s our DM is evil and managed to almost kill us many times :)
TheGreenGriffon 07-30-03, 01:04 PM	I Love this behavior from the PC's that I run in my games, not because I want to see Iconic characters die but because I know a PC is about to die and learn a valuable lesson in the process. Ive known a player named Brian who ALWAYS plays wizards with delusions of grandeur which I dont mind. However Brian always has an insane goal but none made me laugh more than his idea to kill the Tarrasque by himself when he reached 20th level. Now normally this might be a character goal which I love, maybe the characters town or residence and all he loved was destroyed by the monsters rampage but Brian only wanted to do it because the beast symbolized power. What ****** me off the most is thaty Brian would look in the Monster manual at the stats and look for cool ways to kill it which got my cog turning. If he was gonna look at stats (Things his character cant fathom) to kill this thing which was OOC knowledge, I had no problem with being unfair and making surehe never won, after all that only fair. Naturally when Brian reached 20th level and found the tarrasque, he found an altered tarrasque that countered all his plans. He died most quickly when the monster ripped into him and he found the lair dimensional locked against teleportation by past heroes who didnt want anyone getting into a sealed lair they designed to make sure the beast never rose again. I even went as Far to tell Brian that his plans had been doomed to failure from the beginning because of his cheating at using the books and ooc knowledge to plan the monster's death, he was angry but knew hecouldnt argue because everything I had done was only playing by his game. The horrible advanced tarrasque which was Half fiendish and a monster of legend was released throughout the countryside and the remaining PC's who didnt accompany the dead wizard were blamed for its release for not telling anyone of their comarade's plans. they are still wanted fugitives in most of Faerun, only the most southeastern parts are safe for them. Needless to say when Brians next Sun Elf Wizard announced his plans to kill the great Elminster of Shadowdale they turned on him immediatly and killed him in a awesome battle I enjoyed watching. Brian quit the group soon after. What Im saying is that any player who goes after powerful characters and monsters and uses OOC knowledge to do it should be handled in the exact way, anything is fairgame.
kedi 07-30-03, 02:37 PM	What's that, In my game, a 14 lvl sorcerer called firat meet an ancient red dragon and said "Sorry old man, i was looking for my lost football " :mad: ofcourse I slaughtered him right on :devil: