Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Weiser_Cain 08-29-05, 02:21 AM	So the idea of killing Elminster came up. I initially said it was impossible but then after a lot of nagging and more excitement than I've seen about any campaign idea around here ever I came up with these options. Playing as my character Alasirr I already have a good motivation to go after the old man. I talked mister kill the chosen into being a Fighter/Blackguard/Thayan Knight (at my suggestion, an out of game trick to make him subservient to me). Here was one or two of my plans. Run around until at a high enough level to attract Talos' attention, try to get his aid in achieving demigod (wait, could I step foot on Faerun as a demigod?) status in exchange for weakening mystra trough the slaughter of her chosen. Then try to avoid being gobbled up (this is assuming I find out any of this in-game). Or since I'm a shadow magic user, we could try to lure elminster to a dead magic zone and hope he doesn't scry the area or get a chance to repair the zone. As an extension on this I also thought of attacking the weave itself (not sure I can as a Shadow mage) through an epic spell and then going after the chosen in that area. Mystra will be very angry and that's why we'd need heavy divine backing. I'd prefer Shar but Talos is more likely to go along with my entire plan, Shar would probably not like another rival no matter how minor and would work against me from the start to somehow betray and destroy me while Talos is pretty straight forward. Or we could come up with an intricate plot that leaves lots of little clues around that lead to adventures suitable for all level adventurers. What horrid holes are there in my plan and do you have any other ideas?
Derren S. 08-29-05, 04:51 AM	1. As far as I know only AO can grant godhood. 2. Elminster lived to long to fall for such a simple plot.
Weiser_Cain 08-29-05, 05:13 AM	Direct not simple, I'm not even sure I can do it but no epic level spell is simple. If I can tear up enough of the weave I'll have a battlefield stacked in my favor, provided I'm not caught outside of it. You'd have to think the act in and of itself would attract the attention of the chosen better than any lame scheme. Ao has the final say in who gets to be a god but apparently Talos has some secret way to get that approval. But that's more of an after-arc I can worry about after and if the chosen are destroyed.
Derren S. 08-29-05, 05:30 AM	So far only one man has managed it to damage the weave and that was with a different magic system. And when you manage to damage the weave the chosens are the least things to worry about.
Mirtek 08-29-05, 05:57 AM	1. Ao has to approve every ascension 2. If you're a demigod, you can just beat Elminster without having to rely on tricks like fighting him in a dead magic zone (an AMF is enough) 3. If attacked by a divine being, Elminster could certainly count on the help of an avatar of Mystra (or two). And these avatars are DvR 9, while you are DvR 5 (at best, most likely DvR 1) Ao has the final say in who gets to be a god but apparently Talos has some secret way to get that approval. Actually no. He just developed a ritual that can bestow godhood, but in the end Ao still needs to give his OK or it just fails. He has no automatic approval.
Link182 08-29-05, 06:00 AM	What horrid holes indeed. How does Talos have a secret way to grant divine status? Would Shar, mistress of secrets and all thing subtle allow the Shadow Weave to be used in so vulgar a manner? Would Mystra stand for such nonsense as ripping up the weave? Would Elminster and company not see this coming a mile a way? No you most likely couldn't set foot on Faerun as a demigod but your weakling avatar could, which would of course attract the attention of every other god and power hungry creature, most of which would probably want to kill you for any multitude of reasons. I can't imagine what divine backing you could possibly get that would allow you to thwart the efforts of Mystra (and her allies), who is arguably the most powerful and influential god of the Faerunian pantheon.
Aylomeizen 08-29-05, 06:35 AM	Forget the tricks. The only way you're going to take him down is in a straight-up fight, and that's only by being a class that'll eat a mage alive. He's one of a few characters in the FRCS who isn't a complete pushover. With the direct aid of Mystra, and the favors of several others, he's not going to be an easy target. Don't even think about attacking him until you're a few levels above him, and only if you're willing to possibly throw away the character attacking him. It's not that he's incredibly powerful alone(though he's not weak, either) - it's that he has too many friends. Mess with him, and you mess with magic.
Weiser_Cain 08-29-05, 06:36 AM	Lloth would help. Thing is as a mage I have the time. How am I going to keep my companions alive long enough to reach such silly-high levels (kinda important since it isn't me that's the driving force behind this idea and I'm sure everyone will think it's pretty lame to die of old age in a quest to kill elminster)?
Aylomeizen 08-29-05, 06:41 AM	Lloth would help. Thing is as a mage I have the time. How am I going to keep my companions alive long enough to reach such silly-high levels (kinda important since it isn't me that's the driving force behind this idea and I'm sure everyone will think it's pretty lame to die of old age in a quest to kill elminster)? I'd suggest that you go to another plane, a plane where you won't age. It would be a dramatic way to deviate from your initial campaign, I'm sure, but if you really want to kill Elminster then you need to think in the long term.
Kessalin Talira 08-29-05, 07:30 AM	Well, to avoid dying from old age, there's always Necropolitan from Libris Mortis. Lose a level and become undead. Casters can go with something like lich, but for the non-casters in the group, that one's quick and relatively painless, as far as LA goes. Elminster's got a pretty miniscule chance of turning undead, anyway... I think the only one that would give you real problems in that respect would be Qilue' Veladorn.
Darrian 08-29-05, 07:33 AM	First of all, good luck killing Superman, err Elminster. If you are really intent on doing this however, you need to do it with the correct PC's. The best classes against him that I can think of are dweomerkeeper and shadow-adept. You need to be epic level yourself and I would not even consider it til I was at level 30. The problem with an epic level wizard like Superman is the layers of spells that he probably already has cast on himself. If you start to really damage him, he will leave via spell. The dweomerkeeper can cast anti-magic field and has a very good probability of her spells working through the AMF. If she is the "Cheater of Mystra" build she can also polymorph into a planetar while in an AMF. As a planetar, she could grapple and kill Elminster, no problem. Good hunting, let me know what happens. Darrian
Darrian 08-29-05, 07:39 AM	So, let's say you are successful. You need to have soulbind ready so that he cannot be brought back to life. You need to cast it IMMEDIATELY! Don't even think to give his fellow Superfriends a chance to arrive and save the day. Next, you need to figure out how to survive a battle with the rest of them. I suggest you run, regroup and find epic level friends. Darrian (Please kill him)
Kessalin Talira 08-29-05, 07:47 AM	Disjunction will be MANDATORY. It'll get rid of some of his most annoying magical effects, like contingent spells and most notably his Elminster's Evasion spell. If he gets time to cast Effulgent Epuration, MDJ will take care of that, as well, I think. I'm not 100% sure on that, though. I don't remember if Epuration takes care of area spells too, or not. EDIT: While good, I would say that Dweomerkeeper is out. Considering that the PrC first came into being in a Realms book, and is dedicated to Mystra, I would be willing to venture that any dweomerkeepers are going to be very reluctant to take offensive action against Elminster at all.
Mula 08-29-05, 09:00 AM	Would Mystra know beforehand that one of her Chosen would die? Would that be part of her divine powers (or portfolio sense)? And what about all the casters in her 'court' who continuously cast divination spells to foresee the the future? Forget about becoming a deity. I think your best shot is to ask for Shar's help who as the holder of the secrets portfolio could probably shield your/her plans from Mystra (and her servants). Mordenkainen's Disjunction is obviously your first spell of choice to cast on Elminster, perhaps twinned. You also need a way to prevent him from being resurrected with Bind the Soul or something, maybe even research a new spell. Save or die spells (after all the protections are gone), coupled with teleportation nulling spells, are probably the best way to go. Though does Elminster have that many hit points? Would direct damage dealing spells work better? How about Gating in allies? Pit fiends, balors, you name it. Is there a way to transform into epic dragons, powers intact? I think psions could pull it off with the feat that lets you take some of the supernatural abilities of your assumed form. Remember to mutilate Elminster's body, just for fun! :)
runestar 08-29-05, 09:53 AM	How does Talos have a secret way to grant divine status? According to Magic of Faerun, that was how Velsharoon ascended to godhood, but then he was reduced to being Talos's personal battery, until he managed to switch sides. Unreliable method at best. And doesn't silver fire have the ability to restore dead magic areas? With the release of newer sourcebooks, I was thinking of revising his stats, or at least his feat array. Replace all but one of his regional feats(since he can only have 1 under 3.5) with other feats like practiced spellcaster and initiate of mystra. That should allow him to retain some teeth even if caught in a deadmagic/antimagic area. There's another way. There's this epic spell in Champions of Ruin that destroys 1000HD of living matter without saves(sr allowed). So find a way to clump all the chosen of mystra together, try to dispel their death wards and let rip with said spell. Naturally, that's the simplified gist of things, I expect execution will be infinitely trickier.
Yanagita Kunio 08-29-05, 10:05 AM	Hit him in the back of the head with a +5, unholy, impact duck; it's the archmage's one true weakness. I learned it from a slaad. Unfortunately I'm sure he has powerful antiduck spells and artifacts--for both live and roasted, although I'm not sure about a l'orange. Perhaps soften him up first with disjunction and some of the lesser waterfowl.
Zevox 08-29-05, 10:52 AM	One problem to point out with attacking him in a dead magic zone or casting an antimagic field about him - his Silver Fire has the ability to instantly repair dead magic zones and dispel antimagic fields it comes into contact with. Granted, once hes used this up once, he'll have to wait another 70 minutes before he can do it again, but prepare to be foiled at least the first time if you try that trick. Plus you'd best have some way to keep him from calling in the other Chosen should he get in trouble and his contingency spells (Elminster's Evasion most prominently) fail - all he has to do is say thier name and they can hear the next 10 words he says. Zevox
Alratan 08-29-05, 11:21 AM	Easiest way to break the Chosen is to exploit their ability (mentioned above) to hear their name spoken, and with it thenext 10 words. Get a high level bard and compose many popular songs about them. Also, pay the red wizards to create thousands of permenant magical mouths speaking their names, and at the limit just pay people to recite their names. Their minds would shatter under the continous barrage of sensation pretty quickly. The Chosen are not that super-humanly intelligent or wise, so have no particular protection from being driven insane by the opposite of sensory deprivation.
Kuje31 08-29-05, 12:14 PM	Easiest way to break the Chosen is to exploit their ability (mentioned above) to hear their name spoken, and with it thenext 10 words. Get a high level bard and compose many popular songs about them. Also, pay the red wizards to create thousands of permenant magical mouths speaking their names, and at the limit just pay people to recite their names. Their minds would shatter under the continous barrage of sensation pretty quickly. The Chosen are not that super-humanly intelligent or wise, so have no particular protection from being driven insane by the opposite of sensory deprivation. This wouldn't work, because they can choose to ignore that name attunement. :) Or they can choose to hear only their names that they want to hear.
ElGrecoETAC 08-29-05, 12:23 PM	... Playing as my character Alasirr I already have a good motivation to go after the old man. What is it? Run around until at a high enough level to attract Talos' attention, try to get his aid in achieving demigod (wait, could I step foot on Faerun as a demigod?) status in exchange for weakening mystra trough the slaughter of her chosen. Then try to avoid being gobbled up (this is assuming I find out any of this in-game). No offense, but this is ridiculously contrived--and an amazing example of meta-gaming. Can you seriously imagine someone hatching up a plan to kill someone (we don't know why, by the way) that basically entails getting a God's attention and being granted divine powers? Or since I'm a shadow magic user, we could try to lure elminster to a dead magic zone and hope he doesn't scry the area or get a chance to repair the zone. That's better. At least in the sense that a lucid mind could justifiably and conceivably arrive at this during an attempt at crafting a plan. Never mind that it wouldn't work, though. Don't you think that villains like Manshoon or Szass Tamm, beyond-genius individuals who have wanted Elminster dead for years, wouldn't have arrived at this conclusion? Do you really think that Elminster (or any other archmage, for that matter), who has been alive for centuries and is so experienced in the different workings and anomalies of magic, would actually be suckered into such a trap? And why would Talos have any interest in going after Elminster? What has Mystra done to him lately that warrants his starting a pre-emptive war against her? Sorry, man, but I am so averse to contrived ideas like this. Were I your players' DM, I'd turn the tables by actually including them in the list of villains whose lives Elminster takes the time to make miserable. It's usually only by being equally cheesy that people get the message. :rolleyes:
Mirtek 08-29-05, 01:38 PM	What horrid holes indeed. How does Talos have a secret way to grant divine status? Actually it's arguably if it's secret or not. Talos did create a ritual that enables a mortal spellcaster, with the assisstance of a god, to become a demigod. He created it and hid it on Faerun for powerfull mortals to find. Other gods could certainly act as patron for this ritual just as well as Talos So, let's say you are successful. You need to have soulbind ready so that he cannot be brought back to life. You need to cast it IMMEDIATELY! Unless you give the captured soul to Shar after it's done, it won't be enough to stop a DvR 18 goddess from resurecting him.
Darrian 08-29-05, 01:51 PM	Before you guys start throwing Mordenkainen's Disjunctions's around at Elminster, you better make damn sure he does not have Shrinsee's Spell Shift cast. If he does he can redirect that spell to you and you are dead. Better to start with a targeted Superb Dispel. Just because you are a Dweomerkeeper does not mean that you cannot fight Elminster. After all, the leader of the church of mystra in Waterdeep is NE. Darrian (A noble cause)
Weiser_Cain 08-29-05, 02:02 PM	How about I go looking for Deep Imaskar to find out a way to create fast breeding phaerimm with the spellfire feat? What is it? Greed, ambition, I'm a red wizard, maybe my daddy told me to... No offense, but this is ridiculously contrived--and an amazing example of meta-gaming. Can you seriously imagine someone hatching up a plan to kill someone (we don't know why, by the way) that basically entails getting a God's attention and being granted divine powers? I could put it into story terms. After converting to shar after a mission to shade I'm impressed by her subtle yet overwhelming power and from that point on desire to join her in divinity. Shar would know this was what I wanted immediately and noting my destructive tendencies maneuver me to the edges of her church and point me in talos' direction (maybe cutting me off from shadow magic for a time (or entirely and introduce me to heavy magic) but still partially shielding me from mystra as Mula suggested and provided I survived, dropping a note or two about me being the key to wresting control of the weave from mystra to the storm lord). With talos' openly backing me, mystra and talos would be at each other’s divine necks leaving Shar free to work her machinations, or something like that. *shrugs* Sorry, man, but I am so averse to contrived ideas like this. Were I your players' DM, I'd turn the tables by actually including them in the list of villains whose lives Elminster takes the time to make miserable. It's usually only by being equally cheesy that people get the message. :rolleyes: Giving the players an actual reason to go after him, if age were the final determining say in everything the oldest races would still be in charge, and no lich would ever be destroyed, upstarts with the power can do as much as the graybeards, especially once they're basically graybeards themselves. Maybe Szass valued his unlife more than the slim possibility of destroying elminster and getting away unscaved and relatively free of the higher powers?
Shy_Guy 08-29-05, 02:23 PM	What is it? No offense, but this is ridiculously contrived--and an amazing example of meta-gaming. Can you seriously imagine someone hatching up a plan to kill someone (we don't know why, by the way) that basically entails getting a God's attention and being granted divine powers? That's better. At least in the sense that a lucid mind could justifiably and conceivably arrive at this during an attempt at crafting a plan. Never mind that it wouldn't work, though. Don't you think that villains like Manshoon or Szass Tamm, beyond-genius individuals who have wanted Elminster dead for years, wouldn't have arrived at this conclusion? Do you really think that Elminster (or any other archmage, for that matter), who has been alive for centuries and is so experienced in the different workings and anomalies of magic, would actually be suckered into such a trap? And why would Talos have any interest in going after Elminster? What has Mystra done to him lately that warrants his starting a pre-emptive war against her? Sorry, man, but I am so averse to contrived ideas like this. Were I your players' DM, I'd turn the tables by actually including them in the list of villains whose lives Elminster takes the time to make miserable. It's usually only by being equally cheesy that people get the message. :rolleyes: True dat ElGreco. True dat.
Zevox 08-29-05, 02:32 PM	And why would Talos have any interest in going after Elminster? What has Mystra done to him lately that warrants his starting a pre-emptive war against her? Well, I'm not sure if its motivation enough at this point, but Mystra did oppose his recent attempts to take control of wild and destructive magics (I'm not sure if it motivation enough because he decided it wasn't worth it now that most wild magic areas have been healed). Zevox
Ioulaum 08-29-05, 02:32 PM	This applies to all Mystra chosens not just Elminster. When you go after one of Mystra's chosen you better be prepare to take them all on. The Mystran chosen are bound by a link that allow them to summon other chosens for help. Besides the the El, Khelban and the Seven sister, there are at 2 maybe 3 more chosens that no one knows about. Two of the chosen were former magisters and the Sinshree who I think is a chosen but not sure was the most powerful Mage in myth Dannar and probably the oldest living elf. And you can't even distract these three since no one knows who they are or where they or that they even exist.
Zevox 08-29-05, 02:39 PM	This applies to all Mystra chosens not just Elminster. When you go after one of Mystra's chosen you better be prepare to take them all on. The Mystran chosen are bound by a link that allow them to summon other chosens for help. Besides the the El, Khelban and the Seven sister, there are at 2 maybe 3 more chosens that no one knows about. Two of the chosen were former magisters and the Sinshree who I think is a chosen but not sure was the most powerful Mage in myth Dannar and probably the oldest living elf. And you can't even distract these three since no one knows who they are or where they or that they even exist. *nods* The Srinshee is indeed a Chosen of Mystra, and Alvaerele Tasundrym the Silent Chosen and Noumea Dathchuld (the most recent ex-magister) are the two ex-magister Chosen. Plus theres Symrustar Auglamyr, who disappeared when Myth Drannor fell - she may be dead, but this was never confirmed. Zevox
Kuje31 08-29-05, 03:09 PM	*nods* The Srinshee is indeed a Chosen of Mystra, and Alvaerele Tasundrym the Silent Chosen and Noumea Dathchuld (the most recent ex-magister) are the two ex-magister Chosen. Plus theres Symrustar Auglamyr, who disappeared when Myth Drannor fell - she may be dead, but this was never confirmed. Zevox Plus the other's that have never been shown in lore. :) And Steven has said, "If no body was found, then consider them still alive." Which means Symruster is still around.
Link182 08-29-05, 03:44 PM	Finding Deep Imaskar to create a fast breeding race of Spellfire wielding Phaerimm? Does anybody have crackers to go with all this cheese? If I were the DM I would turn the tables. I'd turn them right over, flinging dice, cheetos and characters everwhere and walk out. If you guys want to kill Elminster, you should create a scimitar wielding drow ranger on a mission of redemption then team him up with a bunch of drow samuri and ninjas. Instead of creating phaerimm, just give everyone the spellfire wielder feat and attack him with The Sword of Kas from Baba Yaga's hut. I assume you'll all have Hands and Eyes of Vecna before starting this mission of course. I think I feel my troll sense tingling. How's the view from beneath that bridge?
Ioulaum 08-29-05, 04:00 PM	I think the best bet when going after the chosen is just lvl your character just short of demigod with the right combination of classes and feats then challenge El to a straight magic dual. No tricks, no ambush, just a straight up magic fight. This way if he accepts your challenge, you don't need to worry about other chosen gating in to help or intervenation of a goddess. Althought you should prepare to run for it after killing El, since the symbul is probably prepare to blast you to cinders.
GothicDan 08-29-05, 04:13 PM	Just because you are a Dweomerkeeper does not mean that you cannot fight Elminster. After all, the leader of the church of mystra in Waterdeep is NE. Darrian (A noble cause) According to the one step rule, clergy of Mystra cannot be evil, and the Dweomerkeeper is a member of that clergy. The church leader in Waterdeep is a Wizard.
MaskedOne 08-29-05, 04:22 PM	Midnight still grants spells and sanction to any and all clergy of the old Mystra. The previous Mystra being lawful neutral would have had no difficulty with an evil cleric.
Mula 08-29-05, 04:29 PM	I personally see nothing wrong with a player wanting to destroy an important NPC like Elminster (or Alustriel, Dove, Szass Tam, Drizzt, etc.). The world of Faerûn is full of powerhungry maniacs (you need to be that when you want to attack one of the Chosen) who want the power of other powerful people. I've been toying with the idea of removing one of the Chosen of Mystra - permanently. FR is full of 'DM's favorites', characters who are immortal just because they're liked characters (though that 'liked' is arguable). You need to shake things up a bit. Besides, they're even more popular dead. :)
Darrian 08-29-05, 04:46 PM	Gothic Dan, who said anyone had to be evil to kill Elminster? I would certainly like Elminster even more dead than alive. You know what amazes me is the small minority of players that love the chosen and go crazy at the mere thought of anyone killing Elminster. Darrian (kill El, it's good for the game)
Weiser_Cain 08-29-05, 04:46 PM	Finding Deep Imaskar to create a fast breeding race of Spellfire wielding Phaerimm? Does anybody have crackers to go with all this cheese? If I were the DM I would turn the tables. I'd turn them right over, flinging dice, cheetos and characters everwhere and walk out. If you guys want to kill Elminster, you should create a scimitar wielding drow ranger on a mission of redemption then team him up with a bunch of drow samuri and ninjas. Instead of creating phaerimm, just give everyone the spellfire wielder feat and attack him with The Sword of Kas from Baba Yaga's hut. I assume you'll all have Hands and Eyes of Vecna before starting this mission of course. I think I feel my troll sense tingling. How's the view from beneath that bridge? You roll a 1. Humor escapes you. I think the best bet when going after the chosen is just lvl your character just short of demigod with the right combination of classes and feats then challenge El to a straight magic dual. No tricks, no ambush, just a straight up magic fight. This way if he accepts your challenge, you don't need to worry about other chosen gating in to help or intervenation of a goddess. Althought you should prepare to run for it after killing El, since the symbul is probably prepare to blast you to cinders. What's the likelyhood of him actually accepting? I knew the simbul was giong to come after us, I'd assumed I'd be fighting at least both of them at once actually. Can mystra find me if I'm in a dead magic zone? If not I could hide out there between fights and stash clones. Also Are there rules for a wand of Lichdom? I feel I may need it. I agree with Mulan about not having untouchable npc's, that's the sort of thing that happens in videogames, and I hate it then. It should just be accurately played out.
Darrian 08-29-05, 04:52 PM	Amen Weiser_Cain. "You roll a one. Humor escapes you." That is awesome. LMFAO!!!!!!! Darrian (very amused)
Ioulaum 08-29-05, 04:58 PM	You roll a 1. Humor escapes you. What's the likelyhood of him actually accepting? I knew the simbul was giong to come after us, I'd assumed I'd be fighting at least both of them at once actually. I think if you threaten to unleash a powerful area killing magic on dales if he doesn't accept should be motivation enough. Can mystra find me if I'm in a dead magic zone? Note sure. If not I could hide out there between fights and stash clones. Not a good idea, just look at manshoon. Also Are there rules for a wand of Lichdom? I feel I may need it. I believed there is, in 2nd ed at least not sure about 3rd ed. I agree with Mulan about not having untouchable npc's, that's the sort of thing that happens in videogames, and I hate it then. It should just be accurately played out. I agree
GothicDan 08-29-05, 05:09 PM	Gothic Dan, who said anyone had to be evil to kill Elminster? I would certainly like Elminster even more dead than alive. You know what amazes me is the small minority of players that love the chosen and go crazy at the mere thought of anyone killing Elminster. Darrian (kill El, it's good for the game) I'm pretty neutral towards most of the Chosen. And it's a very evil character that will murder one of the greatest proponents of good in the Realms simply to hopefully, possibly, gain power for himself or herself.
Kuje31 08-29-05, 06:29 PM	Gothic Dan, who said anyone had to be evil to kill Elminster? I would certainly like Elminster even more dead than alive. You know what amazes me is the small minority of players that love the chosen and go crazy at the mere thought of anyone killing Elminster. Darrian (kill El, it's good for the game) As I said in the other thread, it's actually a small minority that want the Chosen dead since the sales figures both from TSR and WOTC say differently. People on the message boards who want them dead are a vocal minority.
Darrian 08-29-05, 06:37 PM	So Dan, are you saying that a neutral character would not try to kill Elminster for profit? How about for experience? Old El is an xp cow. JUst imagine the xp a 32nd level character would get for ending El. He would surely level AND be one xp away from levelling again. Even better, after wasting El and levelling, more xp is sure to show up (other chosen) and provide even more xp. This could end up netting a couple 32nd level pc's five or so levels by the time they are done. Darrian (killing for profit and experience)
Darrian 08-29-05, 06:46 PM	Let's come correct Kuje, YOUR view is that the number of on these boards is a minority. You have no quantifiable proof of this, just your opinion. Now, onto your sales figures propaganda, the best thing WotC/TSR could do is to kill Elminster in an epic story. DC comics did just this with Superman in the 90's. It was the highest selling issue of Superman EVER! Heroism is good, the height of heroics is an heroic death. The fact that NONE of the heroes of FR have died is the reason readers are so bored with the existing cast of FR characters. There is no suspension of disbelief if you know with ABSOLUTE certainty that the heroes cannot die. Boring. Darrian (marketing 101)
Kuje31 08-29-05, 06:58 PM	Let's come correct Kuje, YOUR view is that the number of on these boards is a minority. You have no quantifiable proof of this, just your opinion. Now, onto your sales figures propaganda, the best thing WotC/TSR could do is to kill Elminster in an epic story. DC comics did just this with Superman in the 90's. It was the highest selling issue of Superman EVER! Heroism is good, the height of heroics is an heroic death. The fact that NONE of the heroes of FR have died is the reason readers are so bored with the existing cast of FR characters. There is no suspension of disbelief if you know with ABSOLUTE certainty that the heroes cannot die. Boring. Darrian (marketing 101) Actually this is fact because Ed's newest article in Dragon says as much and HE HAS THE SALES FIGURES. So, message board people are a vocal minority. This is not opinion, this is fact. "A lot of vocal gamers and readers hate Elminster and want to see him gone - but the sales figures tell the different opinion of the more silent majority." So until you can give me sales figures that prove that you are right, then you are wrong.
Kuje31 08-29-05, 07:01 PM	So Dan, are you saying that a neutral character would not try to kill Elminster for profit? How about for experience? Old El is an xp cow. JUst imagine the xp a 32nd level character would get for ending El. He would surely level AND be one xp away from levelling again. Even better, after wasting El and levelling, more xp is sure to show up (other chosen) and provide even more xp. This could end up netting a couple 32nd level pc's five or so levels by the time they are done. Darrian (killing for profit and experience) If someone tried this metagaming in my game, they would be dead before they could even ask what EXP he's worth.
Slime Lord 08-29-05, 07:04 PM	I don't want ot see for the most part, who ever the Chosen might be, killed off. They are meant to live for generations upon generations, fighting for their cause, helping for their reasons, etc. They're a good example of burdens, what ways to deal with them, knowing you can't deal with all of them, etc.
Darrian 08-29-05, 07:06 PM	So, you are saying that your players (if indeed you are DMing) do not figure out what monsters are worth? Your players are not interrested in gaining experience and levelling? You must have a wonderful campaign if your players are not concerned with gaining levels. Let's face it, El is a very profitable kill. Those 4 extra CR he gets for being a Chosen are tasty. Darrian
Kuje31 08-29-05, 07:10 PM	So, you are saying that your players (if indeed you are DMing) do not figure out what monsters are worth? Your players are not interrested in gaining experience and levelling? You must have a wonderful campaign if your players are not concerned with gaining levels. Let's face it, El is a very profitable kill. Those 4 extra CR he gets for being a Chosen are tasty. Darrian That's not what I said, and if they tried that metagaming then I'd just change the exp values. No one knows how much exp things are worth. It's called roleplaying and not metagaming. As for the snide comment about if I DM. I've been running a email game for 2 years as well as off and on again table top games since 2e.
warlockco 08-29-05, 07:19 PM	One problem for the most part when you try to attack a Chosen, especially to kill said Chosen. You better be able to mentally incapacitate them right away or prevent them from talking. Just takes a few words from them to be able to summon the Rest of the Chosen to help. At the very least El can call for 2-3 or more of the Seven Sisters to aid him. And attacking any of the Seven Sisters, means you will most likely have to fight the rest of them also.
Slime Lord 08-29-05, 07:26 PM	One problem for the most part when you try to attack a Chosen, especially to kill said Chosen. You better be able to mentally incapacitate them right away or prevent them from talking. Just takes a few words from them to be able to summon the Rest of the Chosen to help. At the very least El can call for 2-3 or more of the Seven Sisters to aid him. And attacking any of the Seven Sisters, means you will most likely have to fight the rest of them also. And keep in mind the beloved Husband of one ;)
Kuje31 08-29-05, 07:28 PM	And keep in mind the beloved Husband of one ;) Storm's lover is back with her as well. :) And Alustriel's current lover, plus the others she's had.
BrianCritchley 08-29-05, 07:33 PM	god I swear we get one of these "I WANNA KILL FAMOUS NPC X" threads every week. BTW as for the "well elt's kill him cause I can and I'll get extra XP" I agree is lame. I use the SWRPG rules for XP. I don't award my chars experiance for killing stuff, I award them FOR THE CHALLANGES I PRODUCE THAT THEY OVER COME. does this mean critters aren't worth XP for my games? not really, however I award XP for simply talking your way outta a fight etc. furthermore If my PCs get beligerant with someone whom they have NO CAUSE TO FIGHT, I likely won't assign any XP. another solution if your gamers are going after high level NPCs just to gain XP. toss a few greater gods at em, I mean "they are worth a lotta XP if you manage to kill em. too bad as gods they are immortal" :)
Alac Luin 08-29-05, 07:35 PM	I have to ask is why? For Experience? :P My players would have better luck gaining experience following plot hooks I throw at them. Now if I had a PC want to kill Eliminster, they would have as much luck finding him as a PC looking for Eliminster for help. Almost impossible.
Link182 08-29-05, 07:36 PM	I roll a one and humor escapes me? I don't know how thats possible because I find your inability to percieve sarcasm quite laughable. Either way, whatever. I'm sorry and I meant no offense. Enjoy killing Elminster. He's annoying anyway.
MaskedOne 08-29-05, 08:10 PM	One problem for the most part when you try to attack a Chosen, especially to kill said Chosen. You better be able to mentally incapacitate them right away or prevent them from talking. Just takes a few words from them to be able to summon the Rest of the Chosen to help. At the very least El can call for 2-3 or more of the Seven Sisters to aid him. And attacking any of the Seven Sisters, means you will most likely have to fight the rest of them also. That or kill them before they know what's happening. Depending on how the DM uses the Chosen, the tactics of such are a kill are very basic and can be accomplished with one sufficiently high powered Epic spellcaster. The problems: 1) Execution would have to be absolutely perfect or you've already failed. 2) There a handful of semi-reasonable steps that the DM could provide an in game justification for which complicate matters immensely. 3) You have to not only find the target but have the element of surprise otherwise said target will be in position to counter the plot if played by any half-capable DM. Matters may be easier (doubtful) with some of the other Chosen but unless you're trying for Dead Magic (or anti-magic) and praying that your DM really wants you succeed, the above guidelines work well enough with Elminster. At least they work if you don't want to do things the long, hard and painful way.
ElGrecoETAC 08-29-05, 08:37 PM	So Dan, are you saying that a neutral character would not try to kill Elminster for profit? I'm not Dan, but I'd say no. The alignment descriptions are pretty clear on this. Killing for profit is evil; Chaotic Neutral is about the only Neutral alignment that could justifiably arrive at killing someone without good or evil motivations, simply from the sheer unpredictability of his character and lifestyle. None of this really suits the original poster's character and his or her desire for a well-planned, long-term strategy in my eyes (based on what he or she described). Also, I daresay that a person bent on killing someone for extreme amounts of profit could find someone much easier to kill than Elminster. How about for experience? Old El is an xp cow. Because the characters you are supposed to be roleplaying and breathing life into would really think of other people are "xp cows". I'll grant you that a largely amoral, Chaotic Neutral individual always on the lookout for a challenge might adopt a similar stance, though. :)
BrianCritchley 08-29-05, 08:53 PM	BTW as tfor the whole lureing El into a dead magic zone... can't the chosen repair dead magic zones with silver fire?
ElGrecoETAC 08-29-05, 08:55 PM	Greed, ambition, I'm a red wizard, maybe my daddy told me to... Are you serious? Incidentally, did you guys just roll up a bunch of high level characters for this? I'm not judging; it just would go a long ways toward explaining why the PCs are bent on killing someone without much motivation or forethought. I could put it into story terms. After converting to shar after a mission to shade I'm impressed by her subtle yet overwhelming power and from that point on desire to join her in divinity. Just like that! Shar would know this was what I wanted immediately and noting my destructive tendencies maneuver me to the edges of her church and point me in talos' direction (maybe cutting me off from shadow magic for a time (or entirely and introduce me to heavy magic) but still partially shielding me from mystra as Mula suggested and provided I survived, dropping a note or two about me being the key to wresting control of the weave from mystra to the storm lord). With talos' openly backing me, mystra and talos would be at each other’s divine necks leaving Shar free to work her machinations, or something like that. *shrugs* No offense, but this sounds less like a storyline for a campaign and more like a justification for what basically amounts to a cage-fight with a pre-determined ending. Giving the players an actual reason to go after him, if age were the final determining say in everything the oldest races would still be in charge, ... We're not talking about races; we're talking about individuals. Elminster, Larloch, Szass Tam, Khelben, etc., have all survived and even prospered for a reason. and no lich would ever be destroyed, ... Certainly no lich of Szass Tam's caliber falls on a regular basis. But you're not casually proposing the fall of a Lich with levels in the mid-to-high teens, which any adventuring party should be wary of nonetheless. You're talking about knocking off a member of an exclusive club of individuals who have centuries of experience. The plans and ideas you've shared with us so far either don't really seem like things Elminster (or anyone with his experience) would fall for, or seem like they fall in the realm of contrived (deities doing things that fit your desired course of action; no real personal background or motivation behind the PC's actions).
Slime Lord 08-29-05, 09:11 PM	Storm's lover is back with her as well. :) And Alustriel's current lover, plus the others she's had. Oh no, I was talkinga bout Khelben. Since the person I quote suggested Elminster would summon a few of the sisters to his help, which would provoke remaing sisters to help as well. And if you do that, one of the sisters Husband, Khelben, is going to come whether he has been called or not ;)
Kuje31 08-29-05, 09:16 PM	Oh no, I was talkinga bout Khelben. Since the person I quote suggested Elminster would summon a few of the sisters to his help, which would provoke remaing sisters to help as well. And if you do that, one of the sisters Husband, Khelben, is going to come whether he has been called or not ;) Ah, gotcha. :)
Weiser_Cain 08-29-05, 09:28 PM	Are you serious? Incidentally, did you guys just roll up a bunch of high level characters for this? I'm not judging; it just would go a long ways toward explaining why the PCs are bent on killing someone without much motivation or forethought. I like point buy actually. Just like that! Yep. Just like that. And it's pretty darn fine comming off the top of my head. No offense, but this sounds less like a storyline for a campaign and more like a justification for what basically amounts to a cage-fight with a pre-determined ending. But there isn't a pre determined ending and I don't know what the other players will do. Plus I can't see anything wrong with that as long as we're having fun. We're not talking about races; we're talking about individuals. Elminster, Larloch, Szass Tam, Khelben, etc., have all survived and even prospered for a reason.Yeah, apparently because el's books still sell... Races are made up of individuals, I'm young and motivated and Elminster is old and getting weary. And anyway I have as much potential as anyone. In fact I have a greater chance of beating a high level npc than successfully achieving divinity. It's not like I'll try as soon as I learn fireball... Certainly no lich of Szass Tam's caliber falls on a regular basis. But you're not casually proposing the fall of a Lich with levels in the mid-to-high teens, which any adventuring party should be wary of nonetheless. You're talking about knocking off a member of an exclusive club of individuals who have centuries of experience. The plans and ideas you've shared with us so far either don't really seem like things Elminster (or anyone with his experience) would fall for, or seem like they fall in the realm of contrived (deities doing things that fit your desired course of action; no real personal background or motivation behind the PC's actions). It's an outline of the best case scenario, I expect things to change and I expect to fail at somethings that's where the challenge is and where a lot of the fun comes from. Hell, we're all evil who's to say I won't be killed by a companion? Go back and read my posts there are maybes and ifs all over the place.
Andyr 08-29-05, 09:56 PM	No you most likely couldn't set foot on Faerun as a demigod but your weakling avatar could, which would of course attract the attention of every other god and power hungry creature, most of which would probably want to kill you for any multitude of reasons. Gargauth is a demigod who lives on the Prime. In 2E, there were others too (e.g. Siamorphe).
ElGrecoETAC 08-29-05, 10:13 PM	Yep. Just like that. And it's pretty darn fine comming off the top of my head. Just saying you could do a lot better. But there isn't a pre determined ending and I don't know what the other players will do. There isn't? Thus far you've alluded to multiple deities conspiring to set you up with the resources you need for a fight that you really don't seem to care to even set up a motivation for. So far as the other players go, you've told us already that everyone knows what the object of the quest is, and that they are excited about it. I had to assume that they share your objective. Plus I can't see anything wrong with that as long as we're having fun. There is that. :)
MaskedOne 08-29-05, 10:29 PM	BTW as tfor the whole lureing El into a dead magic zone... can't the chosen repair dead magic zones with silver fire? Accurate, it also destroys anti-magic. It has however been argued that since Silverfire is categorized as a supernatural ability, it cannot be activated within dead magic or anti-magic. I don't support that particular position but unless someone can present a quote to the contrary, it is for all intents and purposes up to the DM to make the call. Some DMs might, some won't. Typically it would be a moot for my campaigns because luring El into a sizable dead magic zone simply won't happen and if for some reason I ever allow a fight against him, his stats will be altered to include the Epic Spellcasting feat for the simple reason that I want him to have an Epic Dispel Magic to handle the use of anti-magic tricks.
Sun Krigo 08-29-05, 10:31 PM	I wanna kill him. I can think of a few (maybe one at the moment) reasons to kill him. An individual may want a challenge or the players are lookin' to be the cause of an enormous, ball-quaking event. Maybe lookin' to obtain an artifact(s) from his cold hands and flaunt it about before and after murdering his fellow Chosen. Don't want his pipe though, it'll taste like old, crusty man lips. Divinity would be a plus, but if I died before that I suppose killin' the Chosen would be a super-bonus to raise my respect in Orc afterlife (I'm human). Might have to kill a few elves for that though, maybe a few elven Chosen...
Darrian 08-30-05, 01:32 AM	If you want El to fight you, then attack things that are important to him, like Shadowdale and the people he knows and loves. He will either show up and face you like a man or his friends die. Just think of the fame, notoriety and, most of all experience you would get for such a successful encounter. If anyone has had this happen in your campaign, please tell us about it. How did you do it? How much experience did you get? How large was your party? We want details. Darrian (what a great quest)
The Ancient Sage 08-30-05, 11:57 AM	Please. Elminster is quite old, worn, and so very, very tired. Let the old man enjoy the time he has left, won't you? Besides, I can think of quite a few characters I'd like to see dead before the Old Mage. Like Mirt the Moneylender, for instance. The guy's always described as a wheezing, gasping, bloated boar belly of a man who can barely leap about or swing a sword anymore, yet somehow, he's got Strength and Dexterity scores of 18. Not to mention he walks around all day better spell-shielded than most archmages; beholder rays, crossbow bolts, and thrown daggers just seem to bounce off him. And what is up with him and Asper? He's bedding a woman who's not only below half his age, but he raised her since she was a little girl! Why would he take a page out of Woody Allen's book? For all these reasons and more, I'd rather try my hand at slaying Mirt than some old archmage who's forgotten more than you will ever know, and knows more than you will ever learn.
MaskedOne 08-30-05, 12:52 PM	If you want El to fight you, then attack things that are important to him, like Shadowdale and the people he knows and loves. He will either show up and face you like a man or his friends die. Yes, do attack Shadowdale. You'll get El, you'll also get both Storm and Sylune who reside there. Several if not all the Knights of Myth Drannor and a decent supply of Harpers are also liable to interfere. The Simbul would show up anyway because El is involved. One of the three Chosen will probably call up back-up if they so much as imagine that you're a threat since the odds of you disabling or killing them all before that can happen are rather slim. Khelben, Alustriel, Quilue, Laeral and possibly Dove arrive within 5 minutes. There is also the fact that you're fighting on El's home ground which means better than even odds that he has weapons, healing and other useful tricks scattered around for him to have easy access to. Finally, you are attackind a dale and if your DM is feeling particularly unpleasant and happens to be up on 2E lore then there are spirits of past magisters who serve Mystra as shadowstaves. One standing hobby of these shadowstaves is to thwart Zhentarim attacks on the dales. I think in this instance, they might be willing to extend that practice toward the assaulting party.
Snarkbone 08-30-05, 01:00 PM	Aha, so say you do kill him (with a flawless execution of some brilliant plan, not even an inkling of which I see here so far) you'll achieve nothing. Mystra will just rez him, good as new. Killing isn't hard in FR, keeping some dead is the tricky part. How are you planning on doing that? What do we have that is known to completley and irreversibly destroy a soul not leaving a slightest shread of a being that could allow for even partial reconstruction? (even partially reconstructed, with memories and feelings of all who know and love/care for him throuwn in, Mystra can make a pretty decent reincarnation for El)
Sun Krigo 08-30-05, 01:03 PM	Aha, so say you do kill him (with a flawless execution of some brilliant plan, not even an inkling of which I see here so far) you'll achieve nothing. Mystra will just rez him, good as new. Killing isn't hard in FR, keeping some dead is the tricky part. How are you planning on doing that? What do we have that is known to completley and irreversibly destroy a soul not leaving a slightest shread of a being that could allow for even partial reconstruction? Isn't there a post talkin' about "Soul Bind" or whatever on page ONE?
Snarkbone 08-30-05, 01:04 PM	Isn't there a post talkin' about "Soul Bind" or whatever on page ONE? and did you bother to READ what it does, it just bind a soul to a stone, destroy it (and willing heroes etc. will be aplenty for the task) and soul is released, which is still dead but quite ready for rezing.
Darrian 08-30-05, 01:37 PM	Hell yes soulbind is the way to go. With the levels gained from wasting old El, you should be that much better prepared for the weaker guys who come for the gem. This is EXACTLY what you want, more encounters, more kills, more experience. Consider this, if my PC is powerful enough to snuff El, do you think any other chosen has a chnace against me? You know I leveled right? You know I have all of El's items right? I am probably one experience point away from leveling again. Bring my next victim. Darrian (killing is the best way to gain xp in D&D)
Sun Krigo 08-30-05, 01:44 PM	and did you bother to READ what it does, it just bind a soul to a stone, destroy it (and willing heroes etc. will be aplenty for the task) and soul is released, which is still dead but quite ready for rezing. Somehow that seems better than just eradicating his soul. I'll have that bastard bound to his pipe or somethin'.....! Build my house in a dead magic zone, keep his trapped soul there and let everyone know about it. Hopfully, they'll come after me head-on and those lousy mages won't stand a chance. Or would a DMZ negate the Soul Bind spell?
GothicDan 08-30-05, 01:54 PM	Darrian: So, you are saying that your players (if indeed you are DMing) do not figure out what monsters are worth? Your players are not interrested in gaining experience and levelling? You must have a wonderful campaign if your players are not concerned with gaining levels. This statement really confused me. I had to stop and think about whether you were truly serious. Experience points are completely intangible and arbitrary within the context of the story itself. Rules-wise, a character could just cast Fireball over and over on a creature held immobile for some reason. He may not have even had to have immobilized the creature himself. How exactly does that give the character more experience? How does it allow him to master greater depths of the arcane arts? D&D doesn't differentiate between how a character kills a creature, only what the creature's CR is. Thus, there is absolutely nothing to do with the variation, ingenuity, or mastery of the character's own abilities in the gaining of XP. A CR 4 is a CR 4, whether you blast it away with fireballs or you more cunningly use a lower-level spell to deal with it. That's how it is, in the standard rules. I'm not saying that I would go by that, but that's how XP are in general characterized by the core RAW. Do you run around in real life killing everything you can? Do you run at a tank with a knife? Characters are supposed to be real people, not slot machines for experience points. And since you made the above statement in a general context, I am referring to people in general (hence me asking 'you,' in a more universal usage of the word). So Dan, are you saying that a neutral character would not try to kill Elminster for profit? Yup. Greco pointed out the fact that, possibly, a CN character would so that, and I might plausibly see that - but Mystra can't have CN divine casters, either. And I would shift said character's alignment probably to CE immediately if he/she did such a thing. By D&D, acquiring profit by harming, injuring, slaying, etc., good or neutral individuals, without a reason that extends beyond oneself to benefit the greater whole, is evil. Consider this, if my PC is powerful enough to snuff El, do you think any other chosen has a chnace against me? You know I leveled right? You know I have all of El's items right? I am probably one experience point away from leveling again. Bring my next victim. One on one, the Chosen really aren't that powerful compared to many Evil NPCs in the Realms. It's the fact that they stick together, aid each other willingly and without restraint, and that they have so many connections with groups and individuals beyond their own number that makes them truly powerful. We have had numerous posters complain about how weak the Chosen are compared to PCs (and even NPCs) of similar level. Sure, you might be able to take on Elminster, but what about when the Simbul (who I think is more potent, personally, regardless of CR), Laerel, Khelben, Alustriel, Dove, Qilue, and Storm all show up, either instantaneously or within a few heartbeats of each other? And what about the clergy of Mystra (and most likely Azuth) that will follow? And the Harpers? And the Moonstars? This is the essence of Good vs. Evil. One on one, Evil is more powerful than Good. A typical PC of El's CR is probably built better than him in terms of combative capabilities. But that typical PC cannot fight all things related to the Chosen at once, because they are Good (and Neutral) and thus band together for the protection of the whole.
Ioulaum 08-30-05, 02:22 PM	Hell yes soulbind is the way to go. With the levels gained from wasting old El, you should be that much better prepared for the weaker guys who come for the gem. This is EXACTLY what you want, more encounters, more kills, more experience. Consider this, if my PC is powerful enough to snuff El, do you think any other chosen has a chnace against me? You know I leveled right? You know I have all of El's items right? I am probably one experience point away from leveling again. Bring my next victim. Darrian (killing is the best way to gain xp in D&D) I would say the Sinshree would have a very good chance against you. She was the most powerful mage in myth Dannar when myth dannar was at its height. She is probably the oldest living elf and non-draconis being on Toril. She is also a chosen of Mystra and have access to Rulers Blade of Myth Dannar which allows her to cast Elven High Magic without the need of a circle. She is probably only living being I would say is on par with Ioulaum and Larloch.
Snarkbone 08-30-05, 02:22 PM	another thing to consider is what you going to do after, becouse when Mystra finds out... you'll wish you had Asmodeus pimping you around hell instead. I highly doubt Ao will refuse her personal intervention to kick your behind on such an occasion.
Sun Krigo 08-30-05, 02:48 PM	another thing to consider is what you going to do after, becouse when Mystra finds out... you'll wish you had Asmodeus pimping you around hell instead. I highly doubt Ao will refuse her personal intervention to kick your behind on such an occasion. Bullcrap. Ao's as neutral as they come. It's all apart of the balance, you act like we're on the prowl for ALL good guys. Only when we've decided to go after Mystra shoud she be allowed to try and stomp us. Her own damn fault fer puttin' some of her power in so many Chosen...
Snarkbone 08-30-05, 03:06 PM	Her own damn fault fer puttin' some of her power in so many Chosen... ummm... what are you smoking and can you pass some this way? Ao made her share more and more power with lower beings at each stage of her development (throughout her 3 incarnations that we know of) he pretty much ordered her to make 7 sisters. If anything it's his fault.
Mirtek 08-30-05, 03:09 PM	Actually this is fact because Ed's newest article in Dragon says as much and HE HAS THE SALES FIGURES. So, message board people are a vocal minority. This is not opinion, this is fact. "A lot of vocal gamers and readers hate Elminster and want to see him gone - but the sales figures tell the different opinion of the more silent majority." So until you can give me sales figures that prove that you are right, then you are wrong.Actually I don't understand the connection. I believe the people who hate him are among the ones who buy "him". So who says that 90% of the people who bought Elminster's Daughter aren't hating Elminster? Hell yes soulbind is the way to go.Actually no, it isn't. Just read the rules for the Gift of Life and Life and Death SDAs. They don't even need to get the bound soul, they just ressurect him while you have the bound soul secure in your stronghold, as they automatically free his sould with their ressurection as long as the soul is not hold by a deity with equal or greater DvR. Not sure if Mystra has one of these SDAs, but she hast quite a few divine friends that can do it. And keeping the captured soul in a dead magic or anti magic zone doesn't help either, as SDAs work perfectly within such areas
Darrian 08-30-05, 03:14 PM	Sinshree? Anyone seen Sinshree? Anyone? She has not been seen around these parts for many many years. If you think she would show up to help old El when she would not show up to save her own city of Myth Drannor, you might be wrong. Sinshree? Any DM that has deities get DIRCETLY involved in the lives of PC's is a bad DM. So GothicDan, killing for profit is only done by evil beings. Can you explain mercenaries to me? Are they all evil in FR? How bout that? Darrian
MaskedOne 08-30-05, 03:14 PM	Considering that AO did not interfere when Lolth channelled exorbitant and idiotic amounts of power through Liriel Baenre, nor did he interfere when Cyric personally oversaw the creation of the Cyrinishad, nor in Cyric personally coercing a tribe of giants, nor in any of the divine actions on Evermeet. I find it exceedingly doubtful that he is going to get off his butt if Mystra takes a personal interest in the fact that some moron is attacking her Chosen. Notably, Mystra has intervened in matters concerning her Chosen in the past without any reprimand whatsoever from AO or the Circle of Greater Idiots (read Powers there). Is Mystra guaranteed to intervene? No, nor is it completely impossible to find allies capable of protecting you from her. AO, however is almost certain NOT to get off his overpowered *censored*.
Ioulaum 08-30-05, 03:16 PM	Bullcrap. Ao's as neutral as they come. It's all apart of the balance, you act like we're on the prowl for ALL good guys. Only when we've decided to go after Mystra shoud she be allowed to try and stomp us. Her own damn fault fer puttin' some of her power in so many Chosen... She was actually order to spread her power around. And it was a different Mystra, the current Mystra have only raise one Chosen.
MaskedOne 08-30-05, 03:19 PM	Actually I don't understand the connection. I believe the people who hate him are among the ones who buy "him". So who says that 90% of the people who bought Elminster's Daughter aren't hating Elminster? You've either aquired a talent for sarcasm or are implying that a lot of people are extraordinarily dense. Making a habit of buying books that you know you aren't going to like when you don't need to get them is not typically intelligent practice.
Snarkbone 08-30-05, 03:29 PM	Sinshree? Anyone seen Sinshree? Who? Never heard of her. Perhaps you mean Srinshee? And she promissed to return when the dream of unified elf and non-elf nation was realised, that hasn't happened, so she's not back yet. Don't see your point really, if nation was build to spec so-to-say, and she wasn't back then you could argue your point, but not with the way things are.
GothicDan 08-30-05, 03:30 PM	So GothicDan, killing for profit is only done by evil beings. Can you explain mercenaries to me? Are they all evil in FR? How bout that? Mercenaries who are defensive, not necessarily, as they are working to protect people. Otherwise, I'd say yes, for the most part, although there might be those few CN exceptions. A mercenary is just an assassin who fights on a different battle field, after all. If a mercenary knowingly kills an individual, Neutral or Good, who is not threatening his/her safety or those of others, than I say he would be evil. If, say, a king hired a group of mercenaries to help repel an evil empire's army, they would not be evil, for they are slaying evil (defined as good in D&D) and protecting others' lives. Even mercenaries turn down jobs that go against their moral codes. Those who choose not to be guided both by money and morality would be evil.
Telagaunt 08-30-05, 03:37 PM	I dont think El would fall into a dead magic zone. It's not like he can teleport in it (I think). And he'd notice it was a dead magic zone once he stepped in it. If you want to stick with using dead magic as an edge to him, you could try making a stone or rock have the effect in a radius, like in the Legacy of the Drow series, Siege of Darkness specifically IIRC.
Sun Krigo 08-30-05, 03:38 PM	Just read the rules for the Gift of Life and Life and Death SDAs. They don't even need to get the bound soul, they just ressurect him while you have the bound soul secure in your stronghold, as they automatically free his sould with their ressurection as long as the soul is not hold by a deity with equal or greater DvR. Not sure if Mystra has one of these SDAs, but she hast quite a few divine friends that can do it. And keeping the captured soul in a dead magic or anti magic zone doesn't help either, as SDAs work perfectly within such areas Sonava*****. Bein' a deity may be necessary afterall. Is there even a way to destroy his soul? 'Cause I'm all over that...
GothicDan 08-30-05, 03:43 PM	I would say that a deity would prevent the destruction of one of the souls of someone as important to them as their Chosen. Killing them is one thing (I could see some deities not stopping it), but destroying their soul is another, since it detracts from the deity's own power pool.
Mirtek 08-30-05, 03:46 PM	You've either aquired a talent for sarcasm or are implying that a lot of people are extraordinarily dense. Making a habit of buying books that you know you aren't going to like when you don't need to get them is not typically intelligent practice. One of my hobbies is to collect and read every FR novel, and there are certain ones I know that I won't like. I read and buy them anyway, because otherwise my collection would be incomplete. I even noticed that I tend to read novels that I don't like faster than novels that I like just to be through with it :D I think that you need to know who you are talking about. Just like the book of the scientology guy. It was such a hit because not only his supporters did buy a copy, but also all his opponents bought one too. You need to know who you are hating. If you rant about how much you hate Elminster, but don't read the novels about him, then people won't take you seriously. You can't say that what Elminster did in Elminsters Daughter was silly if you have never read Elminsters Daughter
Kuje31 08-30-05, 03:53 PM	One of my hobbies is to collect and read every FR novel, and there are certain ones I know that I won't like. I read and buy them anyway, because otherwise my collection would be incomplete. I even noticed that I tend to read novels that I don't like faster than novels that I like just to be through with it :D I think that you need to know who you are talking about. Just like the book of the scientology guy. It was such a hit because not only his supporters did buy a copy, but also all his opponents bought one too. You need to know who you are hating. If you rant about how much you hate Elminster, but don't read the novels about him, then people won't take you seriously. You can't say that what Elminster did in Elminsters Daughter was silly if you have never read Elminsters Daughter That's all well and good but we've also been told it was the fans who LIKE Elminster, and I'm one of them, that pressured TSR to get Ed to write novels about Elminster. So this further backs up the sales figures and those that dislike Elminster are a vocal minority. I ask again: If someone can show me sales figures that claim differently, then I'll believe them otherwise I'll take Ed's word about it since he has the sales figures that claim that those that want El dead are a minority.
GothicDan 08-30-05, 04:03 PM	You need to know who you are hating. If you rant about how much you hate Elminster, but don't read the novels about him, then people won't take you seriously. You can't say that what Elminster did in Elminsters Daughter was silly if you have never read Elminsters Daughter I think you overestimate the average gamer's desire to be knowledgeable about which they are talking. Many recent threads (Mystra suxx!!, Kill Elmunster!!) show that when it comes down to it, the great majority of players (or maybe it's just 3E ones.. beats me) make a judgement on a given PC/aspect of the campaign setting and don't bother to actually learn anything more about it, which often results in them looking ignorant and their opinions utterly unjustified if one actually looks at the full breadth of lore. Ahem.
MaskedOne 08-30-05, 04:08 PM	One of my hobbies is to collect and read every FR novel, and there are certain ones I know that I won't like. I read and buy them anyway, because otherwise my collection would be incomplete. I even noticed that I tend to read novels that I don't like faster than novels that I like just to be through with it :D I think that you need to know who you are talking about. Just like the book of the scientology guy. It was such a hit because not only his supporters did buy a copy, but also all his opponents bought one too. You need to know who you are hating. If you rant about how much you hate Elminster, but don't read the novels about him, then people won't take you seriously. You can't say that what Elminster did in Elminsters Daughter was silly if you have never read Elminsters Daughter Valid points, however, presents a potentially ridiculous scenario if thousands or more hate Elminster so much that they are going to familiarize themselves with every aspect of his presentation at their own expense so that they can rant and rave about him to a small subset of people who actually like him. Scientology was a system of thought that people may adopt, there are always those willing to oppose such things because various groups can find reasons to consider them dangerous. El is a fictional character. Admittedly some of the slack would be taken up by those who make a point of knowing whatever they can about FR but that's going to be a massive amount of people who would in many cases be better of aquiring the books used or in some case borrowing them. There is also the problem that the sales figures are supported by the data Kuje presented above.
Mumm-Ra 08-30-05, 04:10 PM	Quote: "You've either aquired a talent for sarcasm or are implying that a lot of people are extraordinarily dense. Making a habit of buying books that you know you aren't going to like when you don't need to get them is not typically intelligent practice." I was on the verge to buy elminster's daughter and the rest of the bunch, even though I dislike Elminster (incidentally, he is not so bad now, since he is portrayed as a tired old man, but the earlier stuff was bad). I had to choose: I want to know what happens in the realms, and buying FR books is important for that. However, I just couldn't help bringing myself to buy books that I knew I wouldn't enjoy...sigh. I will have to wait for some summary of events instead (i do admit the portrayal of these characters is not as bad now..i loved the Simbul in Simbul's gift for example). I don't dislike the IDEA of the chosen, of elminster or the seven sisters...I DO like that. I just dislike how they are portrayed, as invulnerable, arrogant, cocky, insufferable, unkillable characters that rarely make any mistakes, and when they do, the mistakes are fixed by the necessities of the plot. You know that as soon as you read a book about el, or simbul, that it is all going to be ok in the end. boring. I do not want El dead...just that reading about him is...zzzzzzzz. Quote: "That's all well and good but we've also been told it was the fans who LIKE Elminster, and I'm one of them, that pressured TSR to get Ed to write novels about Elminster. So this further backs up the sales figures and those that dislike Elminster are a vocal minority." I don't quite get it. You say that El lovers pressured TSR to to get Ed to write novels about El. (That is great. The more we get to know about iconic pcs the better, for good or ill). But how exactly does that prove that the El lovers are more numerous and that the el haters are a minority? If 50,000 ppl bought a new El novel, how does that prove that there aren't 100,000 ppl who dislike him? You have hard facts about the ppl who like him (the sales figures, and even they don't all reflect the El fans as mirtek correctly points out), but what facts do you have about the El haters? Incidentally, El is ultra cool compared to mirt. Kill mirt instead..deflate his spherical gut with a pointy object!
MaskedOne 08-30-05, 04:11 PM	I think you overestimate the average gamer's desire to be knowledgeable about which they are talking. Many recent threads (Mystra suxx!!, Kill Elmunster!!) show that when it comes down to it, the great majority of players (or maybe it's just 3E ones.. beats me) make a judgement on a given PC/aspect of the campaign setting and don't bother to actually learn anything more about it, which often results in them looking ignorant and their opinions utterly unjustified if one actually looks at the full breadth of lore. Ahem. I wasn't going to bring that point up for a variety of reasons but I do agree with it half the time.
Ioulaum 08-30-05, 04:22 PM	Who? Never heard of her. Perhaps you mean Srinshee? And she promissed to return when the dream of unified elf and non-elf nation was realised, that hasn't happened, so she's not back yet. Don't see your point really, if nation was build to spec so-to-say, and she wasn't back then you could argue your point, but not with the way things are. Actually she is back In the last page of Elminster in Hell she came back to help save El form a ambush by the Sharran and Red Wizards after Symbul rescue him form hell. She hasn't shown herself to others elves but she is back and as for Myth Dannar? She was stasis sleep at the time, thats why she was around to help.
Kuje31 08-30-05, 04:41 PM	I don't quite get it. You say that El lovers pressured TSR to to get Ed to write novels about El. (That is great. The more we get to know about iconic pcs the better, for good or ill). But how exactly does that prove that the El lovers are more numerous and that the el haters are a minority? If 50,000 ppl bought a new El novel, how does that prove that there aren't 100,000 ppl who dislike him? You have hard facts about the ppl who like him (the sales figures, and even they don't all reflect the El fans as mirtek correctly points out), but what facts do you have about the El haters? I don't say that the fans pressured TSR, Ed says the fans pressured TSR. There is a difference and majority of the fans and the sales figures, again not my words but the words of the settings creator, say that the people who want Elminster dead are a vocal minority. If you want to argue this or get clarification, then go ask Ed yourself and his thread can be found on candlekeep.com. So I ask for the third time: Someone show me figures that conflict with what the SETTING'S CREATOR has. Otherwise, none of you are right and I take the words of the creator of the setting over those that come from a message board poster who doesn't have said figures or survey's or knowledge of what TSR and WOTC learned over the years about who wants and does not want Elminster dead. Now this is getting retarded and it's my last reply about this because I have yet to see something that conflicts with what Ed said in his month old interview in Dragon where he claims differently then what some of you are saying.
Slime Lord 08-30-05, 08:23 PM	Actually she is back In the last page of Elminster in Hell she came back to help save El form a ambush by the Sharran and Red Wizards after Symbul rescue him form hell. She hasn't shown herself to others elves but she is back and as for Myth Dannar? She was stasis sleep at the time, thats why she was around to help. Actually, the last mythal trilogies give the readers a small suggestion that she will 'return' again. Elminster and two other Chosen are currently trying to get her or something like this, but Alustriel and Storm have mentioned it. Leading to me believe somethign interesting will be happening with Humans and Elves soon. And by soon I mean June when the Third Novel is realsed
Kuje31 08-30-05, 08:39 PM	Actually, the last mythal trilogies give the readers a small suggestion that she will 'return' again. Elminster and two other Chosen are currently trying to get her or something like this, but Alustriel and Storm have mentioned it. Leading to me believe somethign interesting will be happening with Humans and Elves soon. And by soon I mean June when the Third Novel is realsed Actually this will be cleared up by Ed in the Realms of the Elves anthology. :)
Snarkbone 08-30-05, 10:06 PM	Actually this will be cleared up by Ed in the Realms of the Elves anthology. :) a what what in a what now? news to me! when can I get my greedy paws on that?
Kuje31 08-30-05, 10:18 PM	a what what in a what now? news to me! when can I get my greedy paws on that? Amazon lists it for Feb 2006. :)
dragonheart 08-30-05, 10:25 PM	But how exactly does that prove that the El lovers are more numerous and that the el haters are a minority? actually if you think this through its sort of obvious - TSR got many more letters/emails/faxes etc requesting stories about El than they got requesting he be killed off. if they hadn't they wouldn't have had the books written. since the books were written (and have generally sold well enough to keep adding to them) you can take it to the bank that there are more,if less vocal, El lovers than haters out there.
Weiser_Cain 08-31-05, 12:11 AM	I think you overestimate the average gamer's desire to be knowledgeable about which they are talking. Many recent threads (Mystra suxx!!, Kill Elmunster!!) show that when it comes down to it, the great majority of players (or maybe it's just 3E ones.. beats me) make a judgement on a given PC/aspect of the campaign setting and don't bother to actually learn anything more about it, which often results in them looking ignorant and their opinions utterly unjustified if one actually looks at the full breadth of lore. Ahem. Dan, no one is forcing you to read any topics by any ‘3E people’, go make a list and avoid them. I didn't ask for your approval to kill elminster or a lot of the other things that pollute this topic. What would it take and what are the pitfalls of killing the old man was all I wanted to know. No more criticizing me about 'metagaming' and then spouting sales figures. No more ‘if I was DM I'd give you hell’ since if you were DM the game better be fun to me or you and your game could go to hell. … … Everybody hates him here and that's enough, he'll be dead in my campaign if things go right (or wrong depending on your viewpoint). WotC doesn't have to do anything. We're evil, so alignment isn't an issue. I couldn't be an anything of mystra as I’m a shadow magic user. I'd have to think the chosen would know anyway once he was dead, just somehow. Knowing my crew (well part of it), it will most likely be a messy if somehow efficient kill (personally I dislike the symbul more and would love the challenge and take great pleasure in killing the witch). I could swear there was a PRC that let Illithid devour, and in the process destroy souls, what book was that from? What sort of DC check would even knowing that be? I really need to get the checks together for all this.
warlockco 08-31-05, 12:31 AM	Dan, no one is forcing you to read any topics by any ‘3E people’, go make a list and avoid them. I didn't ask for your approval to kill elminster or a lot of the other things that pollute this topic. What would it take and what are the pitfalls of killing the old man was all I wanted to know. No more criticizing me about 'metagaming' and then spouting sales figures. No more ‘if I was DM I'd give you hell’ since if you were DM the game better be fun to me or you and your game could go to hell. … … Everybody hates him here and that's enough, he'll be dead in my campaign if things go right (or wrong depending on your viewpoint). WotC doesn't have to do anything. We're evil, so alignment isn't an issue. I couldn't be an anything of mystra as I’m a shadow magic user. I'd have to think the chosen would know anyway once he was dead, just somehow. Knowing my crew (well part of it), it will most likely be a messy if somehow efficient kill (personally I dislike the symbul more and would love the challenge and take great pleasure in killing the witch). I could swear there was a PRC that let Illithid devour, and in the process destroy souls, what book was that from? What sort of DC check would even knowing that be? I really need to get the checks together for all this. Excuse me? Where do you get off saying that we ALL hate El or the Chosen, or Mystra for that matter?!? :confused:
Darrian 08-31-05, 12:32 AM	What did you expect Weiser? Some posters around here believe that they own these boards and their opinion is the only informed "canon" one. To post anything that these two posters disagree with is to invite posts from them ad nauseum. I know people who are afraid to post here because of the beligerence of one of them. It is amazing how intolerant some people can be of other peoples opinions. Darrian (champion of tolerence) BTW, please let me know how your campaign goes. I would love to know how your party goes about killing El. You might want to just private mail me if you want to avoid more attacks.
MaskedOne 08-31-05, 12:37 AM	To the original point of the thread: Don't speak of plots against El on Toril. Don't provide a chance for him to call help unless you intend to try and kill most of the Chosen at once. It might be better to try and kill El in another plane but that's harder to arrange. Shar could probably prevent his ressurrection by Mystra but unless you have an avid desire for Mystra to personally intervene then it's probably better not to request the personal intervention of the Lady of Loss and since Shar has no claim whatsoever on El's soul, it would require her active and direct intervention. Also, Mystra could probably make a case to Chauntea to aquire aid in which case Shar's help doesn't matter because Chauntea is a higher DvR than either of them and can claim El's soul right out of Shar's grip for personal amusement. It wouldn't precisely be easy for Mystra to get that type of help from Chauntea but I suspect she can and if not then Corellon I believe is also high enough to pull the same trick and Mystra's been rather lenient with his elves over the years. Run and hide, the moment you're done the kill. I suspect you'll find that the kill is the easy part of this compared to the other events that should occur in response to it. Probably several other factors but I'm not really interested in thinking through this right now.
MaskedOne 08-31-05, 12:48 AM	Excuse me? Where do you get off saying that we ALL hate El or the Chosen, or Mystra for that matter?!? :confused: It is probably a reference to Weiser's home campaign, in which case it may be very appropriate.
Weiser_Cain 08-31-05, 01:30 AM	Yes, that's who I'm talking about.
Slime Lord 08-31-05, 09:57 AM	Amazon lists it for Feb 2006. :) Very spiffy then. The book keeps leading you and suggesting that it will happen in it, or play a role in it. Maybe it'll be like Elves will be like that book-inbetween-book ;). I mean The Last Mythal book is due out in JUNE of 06 when the last one was realsed Two Monks ago. Thats a longer wait then for final WoTSQ book (and that was seven months) and we all know how that turned out... :weep:
Petrankov 08-31-05, 10:55 AM	I would think if you are going to try to kill Elmister you better make sure he has no stasis clones. Finding them and coordinating an attack to destroy one or more of them at the same time you attack him will be necessary I would think. If you can somehow dispel his ironguard and bring a couple epic level fighters with you it would probably help too. How about equippng them with armor or cloaks that have Anti-Magic Shell Permanently cast on them to survive El's first spell barrage. I think fighters stand a better chance against him then anyone who is a spell wielder. Perhaps a Psion if your DM uses the Psionics are different than magic rules. Based upon your goal I would think you should be ok a with dying so long as El goes with you..... Personally I like EL. The characters in my game have met him three times. Once in Shadowdale, once in Tantras and once in the Curse of the Azure Bonds. Each time he is in those modules as written so I left them as is. They will probably never encounter him again. My characters usually don't care about luminaries though so they never bothered trying to visit him or any other name NPC's. Who cares if the Chosen save the world every day. I am fine with it so long as they do not interfere with the adventures my PC's are on. Although I am going to have my players interact with the Simbul who is going to manipulate them into doing something they would not want to do just to show them that its not all black and white when it comes to manipulation and good and evil in the Realms. It goes a bit deeper than that but that is my theme anyway for that particular adventure.
The Simbul 09-01-05, 02:54 AM	These threads are alot like Hydra heads.... 1) Elminster isnt going to accidentally just wander into a Dead Magic zone. You cannot magically transport yourself into such an area, accidentally or otherwise. A 1st level Adept sense when they enter a dead magic zone and take a move equivalent action to note its exact boundaries, Elminster is a 35th level Chosen of Mystra. Any spellcaster, Weave or Shadow Weave, can use a detect magic spell to delinate the extent of any dead magic within the spell's rangeElminster can detect magic with a line of sight range. Which means he isnt going to accidentally stumble upon one. In addition, given his high Knowledge [Arcana] check modifier, his access to the deities of magic, and his time spent holding the power of Mystra within himself, he is almost assuredly going to know of the existence of any major Dead Magic areas in existance, given the titanic events and Art that must be used to cause them. 2) Elminster isnt an idiot. His INT score is 27. With his full alotment of ability score adjustments it should be 30, with the amount of XP he should have after 1,000+ years of adventuring he should have enough for a full +5 inherent bonus making it 31. With the minimum necessary magic item effects of a character of his CR, character class, and abilities, he should be able to boost it to 37. Regardless, he isnt stupid enough to be lured into an existing Dead Magic zone anymore than a veteran fighter would be lured into the keep of his enemy, lured into removing all his weapons, equipment, and armor, and lured into placing a spear point at his chest with a giant "kick me" sign on the opposing end. 3) No existing spell can create Dead Magic zones on command. At best, a Wish can "theoretically" create a Dead Magic zone in the same manner that it repairs one. Of course, "theoretically" Mystra can simply Wish herself into the divine realm of Talos, and divine blast him to death from 3 miles outside of his range senses, or just use a Greater Geas on him that says "dont **** with my Chosen you punk-*** little *****!!!!!", bypassing his divine immunities via her greater divine rank. If spells existed that could create dead magic zones on demand in an opposing weave, then most of Faerun would easily become a Dead Shadow Weave Zone. Barring all of that, Elminster's statistics are not 3.5 He possesses two regional feats, which is invalid under the 3.5 rules. That of course requires a replacement feat to be selected. Lets see, of all the feats that have been printed in FR sourcebooks since the last publication of his stats, which one seems the most appropriate....which feat, of all the ones of its type, has its divine class level prerequisites convieniently within Elminster's ability to qualify....which feat, given Elminster's backstory, allies, and official role on Faerun, just screams out his name??? Ill give you a clue, its on page 81 of the PGtF, the feat's initials are IoM, and I am not talking about Initiate of Malar... For the sake of common courteousy, I will quote the relevant portion of the feat text;You may attempt to cast spells even within dead magic zone or antimagic field. In a dead magic zone, you must make a sucessful caster level check against a DC of 20 + level of the spell you are trying to cast.What is Elminster's 3.5 Wizard caster level? 29, minimum 30 with spellpower. I think its fair to say that option is taken care of.
Yanagita Kunio 09-01-05, 03:42 AM	So we need oil, fire, and a mostly-naked Greek with a big beard and questionable parentage to stop this? Oy, the shipping costs...[taps away at abacus].
Weiser_Cain 09-01-05, 01:56 PM	I'm at work without any books... Questionable parentage we have in spades. Along with crazy magical weapons aplenty at that level I'd think. So lets say I challenge him to a duel. I'm evenly matched with him sans chosen template. but I'm a shadow magic user with a pretty good initiative roll, I know he won't use silverfire due to the risks involved and I'm a red wizard to boot. Forget creating a dead magic zone, can I say port in my epic level, spell guarded, Thayan Knights in flanking positions to chop him to ribbons? Can he stop that? Could I then feed his soul to a Soul Eater to destroy him if it's stuck in a rock? The big question, how powerful would I have to be to hold off the chosen or to least keep enough of them busy so some of my men could port off to feed our Illithid elminsters soul, if thats possible?
GothicDan 09-01-05, 02:27 PM	Weiser: Dan, no one is forcing you to read any topics by any ‘3E people’, go make a list and avoid them. I didn't ask for your approval to kill elminster or a lot of the other things that pollute this topic. What would it take and what are the pitfalls of killing the old man was all I wanted to know. No more criticizing me about 'metagaming' and then spouting sales figures. No more ‘if I was DM I'd give you hell’ since if you were DM the game better be fun to me or you and your game could go to hell. I didn't force you to read my reply, either. I didn't ask for your approval on my opinion in regards to killing off Elminster. This is an open forum, and as long as we are pragmatic, civil, and topical in our discussions, we can say whatever we like. And by the way, cursing is not usually permitted in public forums. Have a fantastic day. :) Also: I'd rather have 3 good D&D players then 8 bad ones. Darrian: What did you expect Weiser? Some posters around here believe that they own these boards and their opinion is the only informed "canon" one. To post anything that these two posters disagree with is to invite posts from them ad nauseum. I know people who are afraid to post here because of the beligerence of one of them. It is amazing how intolerant some people can be of other peoples opinions. Darrian (champion of tolerence) BTW, please let me know how your campaign goes. I would love to know how your party goes about killing El. You might want to just private mail me if you want to avoid more attacks. Isn't it hypocrisy to be intolerant to our own opinions, though? And yes, any time you post something on these boards, one should expect a wide variety of replies, including those which do not agree with your sentiments. That's what a forum is for.
MaskedOne 09-01-05, 06:17 PM	Ehh, GothicDan, you might be missing Weiser's point. Weiser is trying to limit the topic to the methodology of killing off Elminster and the consequences if he should succeed. As the starter of the thread, Weiser arguably has that right and under those restrictions, your opinion or mine of whether El should be killed off is off topic and belongs elsewhere. Of course the same applies to Darrian and any other fans of this particular quest idea, so if Weiser is limiting the topic in that manner then Darrian and assorted others who may enjoy this idea can stop publicly cheering the idea of killing of a Chosen and return to the original topic of how to go about the execution. If they are incapable or unwilling to abide by that restriction, they have no more business posting to this thread then you or I do. Commentary about the courtesy or lack there of in certain board members could also be construed as off topic.
Krash 09-02-05, 10:16 AM	I always laugh at the "How do I kill X .." threads or "Who would win out of Z & V" threads. Why would Elminster want to fight Weiser's character? How does this occur in any plausible campaign? They going to taunt him till he comes out of his tower and squares off? As soon as Elminster got a sniff that Weiser's bad butt group of PCs were after him, he'd scope them out and take them out one by one - if he thought they were worthy of his attentions. There's always one, single bottom line that every PC forgets in these situations: you gotta sleep sometime - he doesn't. And of course, he'd probably get vastly more amusement out of unwittingly bringing Weiser's party into direct conflict with a host of other powerful entities with a few well-placed mistruths and whispers. Elminster is a manipulator par excellence and would delight in sicking the Zhents, the Cult of the Dragon, the Arcane Brotherhood, a couple of dragons, the phaerimm, some elder orb beholders, an alhoon or ten, the malaugrym, the Red Wizards of Thay and anyone else that pops into his head against Weiser's party: one at a time or all at once. If I was DM-ing this game and the PCs said that they were going to 'kill Elminster' I'd start thinking about the next, new campaign - because those PCs would be dead in a couple of weeks. 'Nuff said. -- George Krashos
Weiser_Cain 09-02-05, 04:24 PM	You aren't DMing this game and virtually nothing you said was on topic (see relevant post above), next!
Fayle 09-02-05, 05:31 PM	Ok first off, I'd like to say that I ran a campaign once in which Elminster was killed, but it was not by the PCs. He was slain by a massive army of homebrew Baatezu that were created by the Lords of the Nine. They were specifically designed to destroy magic users, however this is not that case. On the topic at hand... If you are an epic spellcaster, your chances are much greater than if you are not. Forget the dead-magic zones, he's not that stupid. Pretty much anything you've thought of, so has he. So you're best bet is not try and out think him. Just accept the fact that he probably already knows you want his blood. Accept that he will not be alone, and accept that many will die. Now, if you do have access to epic spells, here are some points I'd like to make: 1) Epic Spell Reflection...an mage killer's best friend (though he will probably see this, though I do not believe it can be dispelled, for it is permanent once casted) 2) Peripety...not vital, but certainly couldn't hurt 3) Contingent Ressurection on yourself (so once you go down you will pop right back up with no loss of prepared spells, full health, full vigor, and ready to go) 4) Use the Permanent Emanation feat to make Crown of Vermin permanent...that means anyone within 10 ft of you continously takes 1000 damage 5) If you can touch her without her realizing what's happening (unlikely), use Epic Repulsion against The Simbul, who will most likely be the first to jump in to save El. However, this has a 98% of failure, because once again, the Chosen are not stupid 6) Momento Mori is nice...epic insta-kill 7) Soul Dominion is nice 8) ...and everyone's favorite spell...bum bum bum! Venegeful Gaze of God! Just kidding, it's nearly impossible to research with that Spellcraft DC of 419 :P but you can bet that that'd probably kill you both. Hope this helped somewhat. I'm sure there are flaws and I'm sure I'll hear about them. If know you said you were a Shadow Adept but I'm not sure if you have access to epic spells. If you do, there ya go. If not, sorry...I would not count on victory.
Weiser_Cain 09-02-05, 05:56 PM	Now that's a good post, thank you. I belive I can cast most any spell with the shadow weave as long as it doesn't produce light (or was the have light as a discriptor?) That I'm a red Wizard is a bigger limiting factor, I think, someone clear that up please? One thing I haven't heard about is what political effects this would have it seems that at the very least I'd fight elminster and the symbul, if those two go down?
Ioulaum 09-02-05, 06:22 PM	Now that's a good post, thank you. I belive I can cast most any spell with the shadow weave as long as it doesn't produce light (or was the have light as a discriptor?) That I'm a red Wizard is a bigger limiting factor, I think, someone clear that up please? One thing I haven't heard about is what political effects this would have it seems that at the very least I'd fight elminster and the symbul, if those two go down? The Zhents would immediately march thier army into the dales. Algronland(sp?) would be in a state of chaos. The ball would then be in the RWs court. I see 2 possiblities. 1) Politics only, RW thinks the short term gain of taking algronland doesn't stack against the long term gain of losing thier magical walmart. They might possibly use politics and threat of invasion to get algronlad to become thier client state. Not as good as outright talking it over but good enough. 2) The rw sent their armies in the day they become absolutely convince both el and symbul is dead and Mystra isn't going resurrect both of them. Back to original topic, Like Fayle said, you are not going to be able to trick or outsmart him. El didn't live this long by been stupid or careless. The straight forward apporach is probably your best bet. However instead of invading with army and attack EL with a hundred wizards I would go ahead and chalenge El to straigh up mage duel. Other wise even if you could kill El, you won't live that much longer. As other posters said, if you take El on you take all the chosen on. ANd besides the known chosen the seven sisters and khelban that are know to your players. There three others that your characters should not know, two of which were former magisters and last one can cast Elven High Magic without the aid of Elven High Magic Circle. All that doesn't even included any of El's other allies. As for getting El to accept your duel, tell him to either accept your challenge or else you would unleash some sort of epic area devastating spell that would destory the dales and/or comyr. If not spell maybe destorying some high lvl artifact that would do the same thing.
BrianCritchley 09-02-05, 08:57 PM	ya know, at the end of the day these thread really cheese me off, if you're some anti-elminister goon fine and dandy, if you wanna get your jollies as a group by p[laying games where the entire purpose is simply to railroad your PCs into killing elminister fine, but must you really post the details of your plot here? especially when, bluntly put you should know we're gonna note your plan has holes in it. BTW why as a DM have you cooked up this plan yourself? as a DM you shyouldn't do your PCs planning for em, you should do the OTHER guys Planning for him. in other words, start asking yourself "ok how would elminister get outta this trap?"
Weiser_Cain 09-02-05, 09:39 PM	I don't care, now stop posting off topic.
MaskedOne 09-02-05, 10:01 PM	As for getting El to accept your duel, tell him to either accept your challenge or else you would unleash some sort of epic area devastating spell that would destory the dales and/or comyr. If not spell maybe destorying some high lvl artifact that would do the same thing. You'd have to convince him that you can do it. Problem being that to convince him you can do it, you probably have to be able to. Setting up that type of spell might aquire his attention ahead of time. That can get you in a fight with Elminster alright but on his terms and that isn't necessarily healthy.
Krash 09-02-05, 11:14 PM	You aren't DMing this game and virtually nothing you said was on topic (see relevant post above), next! Dear Weiser, you are indeed right, I'm not DM-ing your "Let's go hunt the Chosen of Mystra" game. And everything I said was certainly on topic. I just focused on the repercussions and likely consequences of your attempt to 'kill Elminster'. But of course, I failed to appreciate that you will of course succeed and there will be no consequences or repercussions. I'm sure your DM will ensure that happens. At the very least to keep you happy. Bye, bye. -- George Krashos
MaskedOne 09-02-05, 11:37 PM	You aren't DMing this game and virtually nothing you said was on topic (see relevant post above), next! Unless you have some guarantee that El won't learn of your plot, his response to the very decision to try and kill him would be very much on topic. Since El should have the ability to hear his name and the next nine words after it that will be difficult. It will be even more difficult with El's habit of looking in on the doings of just about everyone under the sun and it will be next to impossible if for some reason Mystra chooses to make a habit of sending visions to Chosen who are in danger. Either find a way to conceal your plot or find a way to deal with the fact that if El so much as imagines your party is a threat then he will be interfering with your life from hour 1.
warlockco 09-03-05, 02:27 AM	You aren't DMing this game and virtually nothing you said was on topic (see relevant post above), next! Way to go, alienate 1 of the 3 Writers (Eric and Tom being the other 2) to frequent the boards.
Weiser_Cain 09-03-05, 03:06 AM	Well I would hope he would take some actions otherwise it be like plotting to kill a mountain. I don't think he'd move on me at low levels (otherwise he'd run raids in Thay every day) and though I try to keep this on one subject this game isn't just about killing elminster, that's just the only part I'm asking about at the moment. It isn't even my idea, I hate elminster and would rather just forget he existed. But the idea is popular around here and will make a nice high level challenge (we’re starting at 1st level) I've volunteered to find out what would be involved, run a few ideas past the forum and see what's what. Debunked ideas may still be explored if that’s what I think the character or npc might try and it’ll fail because that makes for a good story. The level of hostility (or any for that matter) is uncalled for. So because he's a writer I should shut up and keep my head down? No, I think not. Call it feedback.
Sun Krigo 09-03-05, 03:10 AM	My thoughts exactly.. Except the feedback part. And alot more blunt...
ElGrecoETAC 09-03-05, 07:39 PM	Weiser, if you only want people to post as your "yes men", then just say so. Most people are calling you out on the fact that, with a group of 1st-level characters, you're planning on what you're going to do 20+ levels later, but without seemingly even giving an iota of regard to how you're going to get there. You've thrown out some fantastic (as in, improbable) ideas about divine sponsorship and epic research that smack of the worst sort of out-of-character metagaming. For what it's worth, I think you'd be better off creating some level 20+ PCs for yourself and your friends, come up with a suitable plot and motivation for the group to want to kill this guy, and plan for the consequences and changes that this would bring about. That would be far more realistic than the Realms' equivalent of me spending my teenage years planning to have Bill Gates sponsor my plan to create a nuclear bomb, all before even getting a working knowledge of physics. Furthermore, when some of us (including one of the freaking setting's writers!) tried to address the fact that your plan failed to consider any of the consequences of taking on one of the Chose, you've either brushed them without much of an answer, or called them out for being "off topic". While receptive to suggestions of spell-item-attack combinations, you don't seem to really give much thought to the pre-emptive measures the Chosen might bring to bear prior to an attack; the politics involved in attacking the Chosen; or the consequences of such a battle. Case in point? Any DM worth his salt wouldn't just work his butt off to come up with appropriate tactics for Elminster & Co.--he'd likely throw a Zulkir or two, or some serious "cavalry" resque squad sponsored by them, as a suprise enemy at you. Forgive those of us who might come off as cynical toward a campaign and direction that takes so much for granted.
warlockco 09-03-05, 08:22 PM	Weiser, if you only want people to post as your "yes men", then just say so. Most people are calling you out on the fact that, with a group of 1st-level characters, you're planning on what you're going to do 20+ levels later, but without seemingly even giving an iota of regard to how you're going to get there. You've thrown out some fantastic (as in, improbable) ideas about divine sponsorship and epic research that smack of the worst sort of out-of-character metagaming. For what it's worth, I think you'd be better off creating some level 20+ PCs for yourself and your friends, come up with a suitable plot and motivation for the group to want to kill this guy, and plan for the consequences and changes that this would bring about. That would be far more realistic than the Realms' equivalent of me spending my teenage years planning to have Bill Gates sponsor my plan to create a nuclear bomb, all before even getting a working knowledge of physics. Furthermore, when some of us (including one of the freaking setting's writers!) tried to address the fact that your plan failed to consider any of the consequences of taking on one of the Chose, you've either brushed them without much of an answer, or called them out for being "off topic". While receptive to suggestions of spell-item-attack combinations, you don't seem to really give much thought to the pre-emptive measures the Chosen might bring to bear prior to an attack; the politics involved in attacking the Chosen; or the consequences of such a battle. Case in point? Any DM worth his salt wouldn't just work his butt off to come up with appropriate tactics for Elminster & Co.--he'd likely throw a Zulkir or two, or some serious "cavalry" resque squad sponsored by them, as a suprise enemy at you. Forgive those of us who might come off as cynical toward a campaign and direction that takes so much for granted. :clap: :clap: :cheer: :cheer:
Slime Lord 09-03-05, 09:04 PM	:clap: :clap: :cheer: :cheer: I second that.
GothicDan 09-03-05, 09:32 PM	Third.
Weiser_Cain 09-04-05, 04:54 AM	I don't have a problem with people debunking my ideas, tear em' to shreds (rules-wise), that's why I made the topic in the first place, look at the first post and look at my response to not being able to create DMV's). I don't however respond well to posts that border on personal attacks or criticize me for metagaming, how do you talk about the game on a forum without taking a step or two back? And even then if our style of game involves less role-playing and staying 'in-character' and more black humor jokes in and out of character and snacks, what business is it of yours? It sounds a little silly but I'm disappointed in the forum, this has all left a bad taste in my mouth. You can reply if you want but I'm going to let this topic die.
GothicDan 09-04-05, 09:35 AM	It sounds a little silly but I'm disappointed in the forum, this has all left a bad taste in my mouth. That, I can heartily agree with.
Bullet-proof Monk 09-05-05, 05:39 AM	What did you expect Weiser? Some posters around here believe that they own these boards and their opinion is the only informed "canon" one. To post anything that these two posters disagree with is to invite posts from them ad nauseum. The above statement strikes the bulls-eye w/a master marksmans proficiency. I'll add a little of my own to what has already been stated: Dont expect resolution or discipline from the board mods if certain members cross lines. The moderation trend appears to revolve around the frequency of ones board activity, and number of supporting allies. Its not about who is right and who is wrong, but rather who reports that you have done wrong...and how many of them within the "click" do it. What a load of....... :rolleyes: Weiser_Cain, I would suggest that you maintain YOUR thread until you have gotten what you originally sought from it. Abandonment or departure in the fashion you have suggested only allows for the continuation of these tactics by those who practice them. I honestly dont see why certain members feel the need to involve themselves in discussions they dont like or care for. Statements like : I really hate these kind of threads and the like were never requested or sought by the thread or its creator. If the threads subject & title offer you nothing save for ill comments and feeling, WHY really partake in the conversation? Why, because your looking to end a thread or conversation by beating it to death w/your opinion(and those of your buddies, as you rally the troops via PM or E-mail)of why you dont like it...or why its wrong(in your eyes). Stay the coarse Weiser, you and this thread have just as much right to be here as ANY other board member or subject. ====On Topic==== I may be able to offer some aid in the form of strategies, advancement routes and the like. If you can share all of the resources available to the players(books, ect..). Beyond mechanics, I have a few strategies and motivation lures that I'll hold onto until I gain a full *grasp* of what the players have at their disposal.
ElGrecoETAC 09-05-05, 10:51 AM	Dont expect resolution or discipline from the board mods if certain members cross lines. ... What lines? The moderation trend appears to revolve around the frequency of ones board activity, and number of supporting allies. Whatever. The Mods have shown they are very capable of stopping a situation that violates the terms of service. There's no rule that says you have to agree with someone's ide. Where is the detrimental conduct that would mandate Mod action? Weiser_Cain, I would suggest that you maintain YOUR thread until you have gotten what you originally sought from it. Nobody told him he couldn't. I honestly dont see why certain members feel the need to involve themselves in discussions they dont like or care for. The First Amendment comes to mind. You are free to ignore such individuals, by the way. It's only bad to do so when you confuse trolls with individuals who simply offer constructive criticism or the free service of pointing out the obvious. Stay the coarse Weiser, you and this thread have just as much right to be here as ANY other board member or subject. You're really tugging at my heart-strings here. What a champion of the underdog! ;)
ORC_Paradox 09-05-05, 11:35 AM	Yes, don't bad mouth the mods.
Bullet-proof Monk 09-05-05, 01:10 PM	What lines?Where is the detrimental conduct that would mandate Mod action? On many occasions I have seen the mods threaten to close threads due to the derailment of the threads subject(in a negative fashion). These occurrences give an indication of what is sought within a thread by those who moderate them(even if not blatantly spelled out within the boards Terms of Use.)It goes beyond just comments(though they do & have occurred), and becomes about the general practices of SOME board members. Filling threads with non-relevant comment, or the same negative or ill comments over and over within threads thats subjects dont appeal to them. Depending on the thread and its creators desires, you can almost predict certain members participation in a non-constructive fashion. This is regardless of the creators request, wishes or interests when generating the thread. It chases away threads(and those who would post them)that touch or flat out pertain to certain subjects. 1)Because of the predictable comments that are dropped by expected parties. 2)Its forced to become an argument by those who support the idea or subject, rather than a discussion. 3)You & your idea are threated as though you have to justify yourselves on the board. The funny(maybe not. Sad really) thing is that many within the Min/Max boards were practicing the same habits, and they were told to bring it to a halt..or else. Chasing away certain ideas, bullying posts, continuously criticizing subjects and posters for practices that werent their own. Whatever. This always strengthens an argument or point. :rofl: Nobody told him he couldn't. You dont have to tell anyone of your intentions or desires in a given situation if your words, manner and actions state the obvious. The First Amendment comes to mind. The above is a pointless exaggeration in response to a suggestion or idea that was never made. It has NOTHING to do with robbing any-one of freedoms, but carrying yourself in a manner that doesnt invite conflict within a thread that didnt call for it. Or just flat out adding content to a thread that ruins it for others...as in this case, for the threads creator. This has become typical of threads that dont fall in line w/or appeal to some board members tastes. Regardless of what these threads creators have sought. You're really tugging at my heart-strings here. What a champion of the underdog! ;) I really wasnt looking to tug at your anything. Though my comments seem to have 'fished' you out. Y'know what they say about catching fish, just have to use the right .......(not that this was the purpose of course) Either way, your need to respond to my general comments that offered no hint of identities is rather rewarding(for me). All it will take is the involvement of a few others to bring clarity to generalization for me.
warlockco 09-05-05, 04:17 PM	Yes, don't bad mouth the mods. :clap:
ElGrecoETAC 09-05-05, 04:45 PM	On many occasions I have seen the mods threaten to close threads due to the derailment of the threads subject(in a negative fashion). These occurrences give an indication of what is sought within a thread by those who moderate them(even if not blatantly spelled out within the boards Terms of Use.) Are you a Mod? Have any of the posters here violated the Terms of Service? Would you be willing to cite when in this thread posters violated the Terms of Service? It goes beyond just comments(though they do & have occurred), and becomes about the general practices of SOME board members. No it doesn't. Individuals have to specifically violate the Terms of Service. Some posters become annoyed when people don't agree with their ideas or provide criticism, but that doesn't mean that the other party is in violation of the TOS. Filling threads with non-relevant comment, ... Cite. I have no doubt that one, maybe two posters did throw in unecessary and/or irrelevant commentary, but if you're going to try to make an argument, do everyone the favor of referencing your complaints. There's no need to be vague, unless you're determined to either be lazy or to obfuscate facts. ... or the same negative or ill comments over and over within threads thats subjects dont appeal to them. Again, cite. Again, you're trying to inject a level of drama that is simply not necessary. Weiser didn't like the fact that some people were bringing up points regarding his project that he didn't want to address. If he didn't want to converse with anyone who didn't see eye-to-eye with him (her?), all he had to do was say so. Instead, he chose to argue the merits of his side, and, when that eventually didn't go to his liking, he chose to "quit" the thread. This always strengthens an argument or point. :rofl: Especially if you ignore everything that comes afterwards. I suppose I could simply quote single words from your quotes, stick an emoticon on, and call it a day as well. :rolleyes: You dont have to tell anyone of your intentions or desires in a given situation if your words, manner and actions state the obvious. What, that I was hoping Weiser would try to develop plot devices that consisted of more than 3-4 words together? Or that he might try to incorporate realistic plans, counterplans, consequences, etc.? You're so worried that someone wasn't toeing the line/being a yes-man that you didn't even consider that half the of the so-called critics of this thread were trying to help Weiser make his idea better, did you? You just fixated on the fact that Gothic, myself, and 1-2 other people posted something besides [insert spell-item combination here] and figured you had to ride in and save the day, right? For all your talk of "irrelevant posting", by the way, I did notice that you offered pretty much zilch on the actual topic compared to 90% of the "detractors." The information you were looking to get a "*grasp*" on was right there; why not take the time to offer even a morsel of information? The above is a pointless exaggeration in response to a suggestion or idea that was never made. No it's not. People have the right to disagree with you, to feel differently, and to express their opinion--so long as it doesn't violate the Terms of Service one agreed to follow when on these boards. You, on the other hand, have expressed that you don't feel they should do so if it somehow disagrees with the original poster's vision, even if doing so doesn't violate the TOS. It has NOTHING to do with robbing any-one of freedoms, but carrying yourself in a manner that doesnt invite conflict within a thread that didnt call for it. Or just flat out adding content to a thread that ruins it for others...as in this case, for the threads creator. This has become typical of threads that dont fall in line w/or appeal to some board members tastes. Regardless of what these threads creators have sought. ...Though my comments seem to have 'fished' you out. This is irony. Either way, your need to respond to my general comments that offered no hint of identities is rather rewarding(for me). All it will take is the involvement of a few others to bring clarity to generalization for me. This is difficult to understand.
Mage eye 09-05-05, 06:22 PM	If you go messing with the weave,I think you are more likely to encounter Larloch. That will be a very bad day.
dragonheart 09-05-05, 06:41 PM	if you go messing with the weave I suspect that Larloch is only going to be about the second wave (after the chosen, zulkirs, HAlruaans, Halaster, the twisted rune etc) and wiht Mystra, Corellon, Azuth and Savras bring up the end to handle any clean up needed at that point. :D
Slime Lord 09-05-05, 06:43 PM	Why would Larloch be a problem if you play with the Weave? I thought he was evil.
GothicDan 09-05-05, 06:45 PM	Because Larloch and Mystra have a sort of business relationship. He's allowed to do whatever he wants, provided he doesn't spread widescale havoc, and continues to push the boundaries of magic.
Delnyn 09-05-05, 08:25 PM	Because Larloch and Mystra have a sort of business relationship. He's allowed to do whatever he wants, provided he doesn't spread widescale havoc, and continues to push the boundaries of magic. When you get as powerful as Larloch, you care very much about the integrity of the Weave. It's his bread and butter, so to speak. Evil beings need to make a living too. Oh OK, an unliving in Larloch's case.
BrianCritchley 09-05-05, 09:10 PM	as for mod action, msot mods useally send a warning via PM first. but getting back on topic, the fact is that going after elminister is gonna incurr a SERIOUS risk to you, and most likely you'll be whiped out long before hand, will elminister nesscarily go after a low level char? proably not (unless it happens to be conveniant, walk into shadow dale and expect him to invite you in for tea and give you a friendly warning "to do something constructive with thine life, instead of uselessly throwing it away") hpwever elmninister has MANY allies, the harpers spring immediatly to mind, and let's face it the quest you describe is gonna make things crawling with harpers. and I'm sure we can expect the gods with an intrest in Elminister (and no Mystra isn';t the only one, her servators of course take an intrest in him, and odds are any deities allied with Mystra is gonna take notice of this too) to direct trouble your way. and of course should you slay elminister, your troubles have just started, as not only are the GOOD wizards going to be after you.. think of it. you've just slayed the msot pwoerfulk wizard in the world, this makes you "the most powerful wizard in the world" now then.. what do you think the logical result of THAT is gonna be? here's a hint, all the evil wizards wanna have that title for themselves ;)
Slime Lord 09-05-05, 10:20 PM	When you get as powerful as Larloch, you care very much about the integrity of the Weave. It's his bread and butter, so to speak. Evil beings need to make a living too. Oh OK, an unliving in Larloch's case. Ahh spiffy, I suppose Mystra almost loves him for doing such a great job at Magic :) lol.
Lydian 09-08-05, 10:36 AM	Simple, have all your characters achieve lvl 50, max all their stats, and give them all Wands of Elminster Obliteration (when used on elminster, he must make a will save DC 5000 or be Obliterated, soul and all, for all eternity). Barring that, when your PC's fight him, simply tell them all ahead of time to RP covering their ears with their hands and have them intone "nanny nanny boo boo I can't hear you". This will effectively silence Elminster, and they won't be able to hear the verbal components of his spells, effectively creating the ultimate silence spell, that he has no save against.
Syllibull 10-05-05, 08:05 PM	Most recently a group i'm in has achieved epic level and we have decided to finally retire them. The Main problem is that we have aquired a large fortune in the process. We don't really feel safe with everything we own (theives and the likes). We came up with the idea that we should build a prison/settlement (normal people with no use of magic, probaly a monastary and a fighting school) on the "Concordant Plain of the Outlands" next to the Sigil spire. The mere closeness to the spire (100mi.) anulls all deitific powers and magic (everything but Ex. abillities). The trick is getting El there. I suppose that if you get an epic cleric of shar and an epic shadow weave wizard together with some not so epic spellcasting cohorts(six to be exact, able to cast dominate person) and an epic rouge and one fighter with natural wings, equiped with some kickin' magical items,(rings of the hive mind are a must and items that can cast antimagic field) you could pull it off. 1st the cleric would have to cast miracle to ask shar to keep mystra occupied 2nd the cleric would cast discerne location, to find elminster (his location would be seen by all wearing the rings of the hive mind). 3rd the wizard would begin casting the Binding spell 4rth one round before the binding spell is completed, 3 of the cohorts cast teleport greater to get themselves and the 3 other cohorts the rogue, the fighter the cleric and the wizard to about 20 ft. from elminster. the cleric prepares an action to cast dimensional lock with the chaotic good suppresant when elminster uses silver fire. (round 1)the fighter activates the antimagic field and bum rushes elminster with the rogue (hopefully if all goes right elminster will use his silver fire ability), cohorts cast dominate person to up the save dc and aid the wizard in his binding (round 2) dimensional lock comes into place, preventing elminster from teleporting. the binding spell comes into place (providing that elminster fails his will save). he becomes unable to cast spells and use abilities while bound in a container. The rogue and the fighter keep the bound Elminster inside the dimensional lock (so anyone teleporting to his side will immediately fail) while the cleric casts gate to the sigil (outside the dimensional lock of course). The fighter(with the wings) steps throught the gate with Elminster in hand and flies down the side of the spire (immediatly anulling all magical effects, freeing elminster and leaving him powerless) and leaving him at the prison (for a hefty price) to die of old age and thus be unable to be resurected. I think that it should go something like this, but i know someone can find something wrong with this. i'm sure it could be tweaked though to run smoothly, and who knows it might work for the other chosen of mystra as well. After all, it's not like they could get to him. Even deities wouldn't go there. Any spellcaster that would come to save him would be just as powerless to the might of the non magical fighters, monks, and barbarians that live there. What do you think?
Zandilar 10-05-05, 10:01 PM	Heya, 1st the cleric would have to cast miracle to ask shar to keep mystra occupied Shar would smite the cleric and tell them to get lost... She has other, more important things to do, and requesting that Shar occupy another Greater Deity just to kill a single wizard is so far outside the parameters of the Miracle spell, that it's just asking for it to be twisted or just to fail. As a DM I'd punish this one harshly... Maybe drop the Cleric's Wisdom below 10 for being such a presumptuous fool. 2nd the cleric would cast discerne location, to find elminster (his location would be seen by all wearing the rings of the hive mind). I believe Elminster is immune to spells to locate him. 3rd the wizard would begin casting the Binding spell Have to locate him first. 4rth one round before the binding spell is completed, 3 of the cohorts cast teleport greater to get themselves and the 3 other cohorts the rogue, the fighter the cleric and the wizard to about 20 ft. from elminster. the cleric prepares an action to cast dimensional lock with the chaotic good suppresant when elminster uses silver fire. Have to locate him first. Even if it were possible, El calls for help or teleports away. (round 1)the fighter activates the antimagic field and bum rushes elminster with the rogue (hopefully if all goes right elminster will use his silver fire ability), cohorts cast dominate person to up the save dc and aid the wizard in his binding Depending on who wins initiative... Elminster teleports away if he wins. If he doesn't, I'm sure help will arrive fairly quickly. Dimensional Anchor doesn't prevent people from teleporting nearby, nor would Binding prevent people from teleporting neaby. Also, with the AMF, how are you doing anything magical near El?
MaskedOne 10-05-05, 11:01 PM	(round 1)the fighter activates the antimagic field and bum rushes elminster with the rogue (hopefully if all goes right elminster will use his silver fire ability), cohorts cast dominate person to up the save dc and aid the wizard in his binding (round 2) dimensional lock comes into place, preventing elminster from teleporting. the binding spell comes into place (providing that elminster fails his will save). he becomes unable to cast spells and use abilities while bound in a container. The rogue and the fighter keep the bound Elminster inside the dimensional lock (so anyone teleporting to his side will immediately fail) while the cleric casts gate to the sigil (outside the dimensional lock of course). The fighter(with the wings) steps throught the gate with Elminster in hand and flies down the side of the spire (immediatly anulling all magical effects, freeing elminster and leaving him powerless) and leaving him at the prison (for a hefty price) to die of old age and thus be unable to be resurected. I think that it should go something like this, but i know someone can find something wrong with this. i'm sure it could be tweaked though to run smoothly, and who knows it might work for the other chosen of mystra as well. After all, it's not like they could get to him. Even deities wouldn't go there. Any spellcaster that would come to save him would be just as powerless to the might of the non magical fighters, monks, and barbarians that live there. What do you think? Provided that you can locate El and the odds of him being protected by Mind Blank or something equally inconvenient 24 hours a day are a little excessive so forgive me if I find that unlikely, my response is below. (round 1) for El: Silver Fire (or take 10 steps back because anti-magic fields tend to be small and with over 300 hit points, an attack of opportunity from a non magical weapon is liable to irritate more than actually hurt), free action teleport to safe place. Decide how to go about locating, investigating and executing the collective idiots responsible for this ploy. (round 2): your dimensional lock comes into play on thin air and you decide how to handle the fact that there is an epic Archwizard on the loose that might be more than a little irritated with you.
Syllibull 10-05-05, 11:15 PM	I'm not clear on where it says that Elminster can cast Teleport as a free action (can anyone clarify?) as for the whole shar smitting the cleric? this is an epic level character that's been in the service of his deity for quite some time so maybe a little leniancy to how the goddess would act towards her faithful servant that only wants to increase her power. I think earlier it was discussed that this could be a plot to take down multiple chosen of mystra and weaken the goddess' power by shaking the faith a little, true that it would never work if there were more than one but it's a long shot. NO ONE is impossible to kill. It just needs a little work is all. I do agree that the mind blank thing could be a problem, any ideas how to get passed that?. Oh and the binding spell doesn't need a target until the spell is completed, so you would only need to see the target on the round that the spell is actually cast.
MaskedOne 10-05-05, 11:50 PM	There are several ways to teleport as a free action. They range from quicken spell to specifically crafted items to specifically set contingent spells to items that grant quicken spell (or sudden quicken) to anything that I can't think of off the top of my head but should be on this list. Any archmage that is too stupid to avail themselves of at least one should have their magic denied and suffer 1 year or more of torment in the Nine Hells. 6 months after their release, it shall be determined whether or not the archwizard grew a brain. If not, Heinlein's answer to stupidity shall be applied immediately and without mercy. Luckily Elminster is not quite that stupid. Admittedly he does not possess Quicken Spell as far as I know, don't ask me why, I assumed he had it till 10 minutes ago. He does however not only possess contingency spells but a handcrafted spell known as Elminster's Evasion that should serve the same basic function and conveniently place him a well situated fortress. Amusingly enough if the rules for 3.5 work the way I think they do, he won't need it because he can use a move action to get out of the field and a standard action to teleport. Of course, El needs a stat revision anyway so there is no guarantee that whatever version of him you face if you're playing 3.5 won't have quicken spell or sudden quicken. As for being able to kill anyone with the right planning, yes, you're right. It can be done. There is however a quote about something being easier said than done and another about battle plans and contact with the enemy. Both of them should always apply to attempts to kill the Chosen.
Zandilar 10-06-05, 01:34 AM	Heya, I'm not clear on where it says that Elminster can cast Teleport as a free action (can anyone clarify?) as for the whole shar smitting the cleric? this is an epic level character that's been in the service of his deity for quite some time so maybe a little leniancy to how the goddess would act towards her faithful servant that only wants to increase her power. First, Quickened Teleport is not outside of Elminster's reach. Quickened Teleport is a free action. (He'd need a magic item for that, a Greater Rod of Quicken Spell (can quicken up to 6th level spells IIRC, and Teleport is 5th), though MaskedOne also had some good ideas.) Secondly, a God is not at the beck and call of their clerics, even EPIC ones. It is overly impudent and presumptuous, and I don't think Shar would react kindly. She'd be likely to at least tell the cleric to get lost, and I certianly would punish such a misuse of Miracle. (My punishment of setting the Cleric's wisdom to 9 would last until the Cleric atoned, but only if Shar was in the mood to forgive him/her.) This is what Miracle can do: You don’t so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede. A miracle can do any of the following things. * Duplicate any cleric spell of 8th level or lower (including spells to which you have access because of your domains). * Duplicate any other spell of 7th level or lower. * Undo the harmful effects of certain spells, such as feeblemind or insanity. * Have any effect whose power level is in line with the above effects. If the miracle has any of the above effects, casting it has no experience point cost. Alternatively, a cleric can make a very powerful request. Casting such a miracle costs the cleric 5,000 XP because of the powerful divine energies involved. Examples of especially powerful miracles of this sort could include the following. * Swinging the tide of a battle in your favor by raising fallen allies to continue fighting. * Moving you and your allies, with all your and their gear, from one plane to another through planar barriers to a specific locale with no chance of error. * Protecting a city from an earthquake, volcanic eruption, flood, or other major natural disaster. In any event, a request that is out of line with the deity’s (or alignment’s) nature is refused. A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal, but the save DCs are as for a 9th-level spell. When a miracle duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay that cost. When a miracle spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 100 gp, you must provide that component. XP Cost 5,000 XP (for some uses of the miracle spell; see above). There are much more useful ways to use Miracle when trying to fight El than requesting that Shar keep Mystra occupied (like say the temporary ability to see through Elminster's mind blank). Besides, it isn't just Mystra you need to keep occupied - Azuth would have an interest in keeping El alive too. Not to mention the other Chosen. I think earlier it was discussed that this could be a plot to take down multiple chosen of mystra and weaken the goddess' power by shaking the faith a little, true that it would never work if there were more than one but it's a long shot. NO ONE is impossible to kill. It just needs a little work is all. I do agree that the mind blank thing could be a problem, any ideas how to get passed that?. Oh and the binding spell doesn't need a target until the spell is completed, so you would only need to see the target on the round that the spell is actually cast. You need to first have a DM who is interested in allowing the PCs to achieve such a goal. The DM will always be the ultimate roadblock. Personally it'd never happen in my game world. This applies equally to Evil as well as Good - anyone trying to take out Manshoon or Fzoul would have just as difficult a time. NO ONE is impossible to kill, unless the DM doesn't want them dead. There's always the ultimate trick as well - obscure death. ;)
Mula 10-06-05, 11:33 AM	You need to first have a DM who is interested in allowing the PCs to achieve such a goal. The DM will always be the ultimate roadblock. Personally it'd never happen in my game world. This applies equally to Evil as well as Good - anyone trying to take out Manshoon or Fzoul would have just as difficult a time. NO ONE is impossible to kill, unless the DM doesn't want them dead. There's always the ultimate trick as well - obscure death. ;) What do you think this would do to player morale, DM cheating? Don't you think this would be really unfair and break verisimilitude?
Syllibull 10-06-05, 04:39 PM	here, here! You're absolutely right, my DM encourages us to go for the seemingly impossible. It does mess with player morale when the DM let's us kow flat out that we can't do something that's actually plausible.The idea to use miracle to get passed the mind blank is good by the way. Say the group of intended baddies did teleport in like they did. the fighter activated his antimagic field and grappled El, most likely EL would use silver fire at wich the rogue would have a prepared action and do the same (activate an antimagic field). they could both move him that (what is it 15ft?) into the dimensional lock, drop the antimagic field and finish the binding on the same round... hmmm.... complicated.
Weiser_Cain 10-06-05, 05:36 PM	If my DM said 'no, because I said so', I'd dump him out of his chair take my dice and go home.
ElGrecoETAC 10-06-05, 06:15 PM	What do you think this would do to player morale, DM cheating? Don't you think this would be really unfair and break verisimilitude? I don't think she's implying casual cheating... 1) Obscure death is a tool for a DM to avoid a campaign being derailed. It's an effect seen often in cinema, and I wouldn't begrudge a DM the ability to bring someone back (PC or NPC) if doing so ensures the PCs get the maximum drama/entertainment/fun out of the story line. 2) Alternately, she also mentioned a receptive DM. If you have that, and the powerful NPC/target isn't crucial in his or her campaign, then knock yourselves out. Where her personal choice is concerned, I'm assuming that Zandilar prefers to have a scripted campaign with specific hooks, plot devices, and points of direction than random quests and bounty hunts. To each their own, I suppose.
ElGrecoETAC 10-06-05, 06:18 PM	If my DM said 'no, because I said so', I'd dump him out of his chair take my dice and go home. I'm not sure what you mean. :confused: "No" as in, "No, he didn't die, 'cause I said so"? If that's the case, I can't say I would blame you. There's better ways of handling that sort of situation (obscure death, clones, etc.). If you mean "No" as in, "No, I don't want to run that sort of campaign", then I'd say you have every right to leave, but none to be upset.
Zandilar 10-06-05, 08:15 PM	Heya, What do you think this would do to player morale, DM cheating? Don't you think this would be really unfair and break verisimilitude? Hmm... You have a good point there. If my players ever tried, they'd have a chance... but the thing is, it wouldn't be easy. Elminster and Manshoon should be played to the hilt, and by that I mean - they're not dumb. The players would have to be very very clever indeed to get one over them... And it wouldn't be by using a Miracle to ask Shar to keep Mystra occupied. The real reason it wouldn't happen in my game, is because the people I play with have shown no real interest in killing Iconic NPCs in FR. Most of us play Good exclusively, and most our PCs have better things to do than dream up ways of killing Fzoul or Szass Tam. :)
MaskedOne 10-06-05, 08:20 PM	here, here! You're absolutely right, my DM encourages us to go for the seemingly impossible. It does mess with player morale when the DM let's us kow flat out that we can't do something that's actually plausible.The idea to use miracle to get passed the mind blank is good by the way. Say the group of intended baddies did teleport in like they did. the fighter activated his antimagic field and grappled El, most likely EL would use silver fire at wich the rogue would have a prepared action and do the same (activate an antimagic field). they could both move him that (what is it 15ft?) into the dimensional lock, drop the antimagic field and finish the binding on the same round... hmmm.... complicated. Using Miracle to bypass Mind Blank is an interesting concept. Mind Blank Abjuration Level: Protection 8, Sor/Wiz 8 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One creature Duration: 24 hours Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it. In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all. However as stated by the SRD, Mind Blank can counteract even such powerful spells as Miracle. As such, interesting or not, the idea fails. Which is beneficial to the party attempting this because your life will very quickly get very messy if you can't hide from the assorted irritated servants of Mystra. That is provided of course that the party involved ever intends to leave their quaint little home. I find it amusing that a set of spellcasters would choose to retire in a place where they will never wield magic again however that is quite possibly the only place they'd be truly safe if they conduct this little stunt and you allow Miracle to bypass Mind Blank. By the way, Binding is listed as [Mind Affecting] by the SRD which further complicates this scheme because not only do you need Shar to personally locate El for you but you still need to get rid of the Mind Blank or the Binding spell fails. Notably, Shar's direct intervention in any way, shape or form (and you need it if you intend to locate El magically, since a standard miracle cannot hope to do it) is grounds for the DM to have Mystra intervene. Sorry, but if you get divine assistance to hunt down a Chosen then the Chosen should have divine assistance to escape.
Zandilar 10-06-05, 10:49 PM	Heya, However as stated by the SRD, Mind Blank can counteract even such powerful spells as Miracle. As such, interesting or not, the idea fails. Which is beneficial to the party attempting this because your life will very quickly get very messy if you can't hide from the assorted irritated servants of Mystra. That is provided of course that the party involved ever intends to leave their quaint little home. I find it amusing that a set of spellcasters would choose to retire in a place where they will never wield magic again however that is quite possibly the only place they'd be truly safe if they conduct this little stunt and you allow Miracle to bypass Mind Blank. By the way, Binding is listed as [Mind Affecting] by the SRD which further complicates this scheme because not only do you need Shar to personally locate El for you but you still need to get rid of the Mind Blank or the Binding spell fails. Hmm... Well I didn't look up Mind Blank when I made the suggestion to use Miracle to counter it. Also, if a Miracle can't do something as simple as break through a Mind Blank, then it definitely won't give the Epic character any influence or sway over Shar's actions. Notably, Shar's direct intervention in any way, shape or form (and you need it if you intend to locate El magically, since a standard miracle cannot hope to do it) is grounds for the DM to have Mystra intervene. Sorry, but if you get divine assistance to hunt down a Chosen then the Chosen should have divine assistance to escape. I agree. :)
Syllibull 10-06-05, 11:35 PM	I guess a bad guy could have a child sit outside of El's tower and wait until he showed up to give him a gift for all he's done for the land. At wich point the bad guy could use discern location on the item instead of El. Maybe an item like a hat or a shirt or something of the likes.
Weiser_Cain 10-07-05, 07:17 AM	I'm not sure what you mean. :confused: "No" as in, "No, he didn't die, 'cause I said so"? If that's the case, I can't say I would blame you. There's better ways of handling that sort of situation (obscure death, clones, etc.). If you mean "No" as in, "No, I don't want to run that sort of campaign", then I'd say you have every right to leave, but none to be upset. Ha ha, didn't know I needed permision to be upset.
ElGrecoETAC 10-07-05, 09:18 AM	Don't be like that; you know that I was simply offering my opinion of the situation. I in no way was telling you what to do. :rolleyes:
Cainan 10-07-05, 11:05 AM	Ug, wasn't really gonna put in my opinion, but I was bored =P. For one, I think people need to relax. Weiser, you came to the forums and posted your ideas, mostly looking for info on Elminster and what might come up in dealing with you, but you were also, I'm sure, looking for some sort of approval, cause otherwise, why would you even bother posting? Your DM has the final say in what happens, us people posting on the forums are not in any control of your game. So 99.9% of the time when people post their "I'm gonna kill X NPC" they are looking for some sort of approval about their idea. And if you're not, then don't worry about how people respond, cause it's not hurting the thread any, this thread has actually been amazingly civil and on track. Also, don't be a jerk when people respond to you and disagree. Elgreco was just responding in a civil way and you made a sarcastic comment back, that just makes you look incredibly immature and hurts your argument even more. Now, as for the killing of powerful NPCs, I'm kinda in the same boat as Zandilar. I'm not gonna outright tell my players they can't do it, but they already know better that it's not a good idea to try unless they have damn good reason. If they are planning to outright kill Manshoon, they better have a really good plan. If they wanna kill Elminster, they better have a good reason and not just trying to do it cause it's cool. If you have an out of character dislike for a NPC, that is not a legitimate reason to want to kill him in character. And if the death of said NPC will disrupt my campaign and throw off the game for other players, I won't allow it. DMs have to have some control over their games. PCs can't be allowed to just run wild and disrupt the game. As for dealing with Elminster himself, I think the toughest part will be dealing with the results of such an action. You will never be safe again. You will be hunted forever until you're dead and you'll be hunted by incredibly powerful beings. Mystra may even decide to deal with you herself. Outright murdering someone may be profitable, but there are consequences. The reason most intelligent evil NPCs out there aren't just wildly murdering everyone of any wealth or power is because of those consequences. I don't really see the defeat of Elminster worth the consequences. But hey, if you wanna kill El in your game, then more power to you. If you all hate him and want to act that out in character, more power to you. If your DM is down with it, then do it. There's no need to really get any opinions from any of us cause it's not gonna effect your game anyway hehe. If you want to kill him and your DM doesn't mind, you'll probably kill him. The DM is in control. WotC isn't gonna send out a special DM to play Elminster so that is he played to his peak =P. So if your DM likes the idea, then you're fine. If he doesn't, then prepare to reroll.
Mula 10-07-05, 11:52 AM	Hmm... You have a good point there. If my players ever tried, they'd have a chance... but the thing is, it wouldn't be easy. Elminster and Manshoon should be played to the hilt, and by that I mean - they're not dumb. The players would have to be very very clever indeed to get one over them... And it wouldn't be by using a Miracle to ask Shar to keep Mystra occupied. The real reason it wouldn't happen in my game, is because the people I play with have shown no real interest in killing Iconic NPCs in FR. Most of us play Good exclusively, and most our PCs have better things to do than dream up ways of killing Fzoul or Szass Tam. :) Ok, so we're on the same page, then. :) Killing any of the powerful iconic NPCs of Faerûn should obviously be difficult, but it also should be possible. Otherwise the world's verisimilitude suffers a blow. I think destroying Elminster could perhaps be accomplished via heavy trickery, by getting close to him. The ELH version of Old El has Sense Motive +9...
GothicDan 10-07-05, 04:44 PM	What's the point in playing a roleplaying game as a player when you are not interested in actually following the rules of the game? This include the rules of the DM, who is the one that is running the game. So far in the game I'm running I've told people, straight out, "No wemic monks," "No ninjas," and "No Drow." None of them have been unable to deal with these facts because they realize that I spent a heck of a lot of time creating my world in a logical fashion, and that I'm hardly going to wreck it piece by piece to appease them. If someone would get so terribly upset about not getting their way because it would in some way break or distort my setting/story in a way that it wasn't supposed to go, then I would prefer it if they left. There's a reason why there are Players and there are DungeonMasters. D&D is not a video game; it tells a story, too. DMs are not there just to place monsters/NPCs for you to kill willy nilly. They are there to make sure that you have an interesting, dynamic story and world for you to play in.
Syllibull 10-07-05, 05:43 PM	I'm thinking that perhaps this topic should be looked at like there is already approval by the DM. And as such it should be assumed that the DM isn't going to make this easy. So with the idea that this is ok and that it's going to be difficult out of the way, perhaps we could focus on how we should kill El instead of everything else. The thread was merely looking for ideas on how it could be done, eventually with enough genuine and intelligent ideas an almost fool proof plan(cause nothing is foolproof) can be achieved to use against El. Then who knows it could be modified to take on other high level challenges. Maybe we should be focusing on the tactics of it all.
GothicDan 10-07-05, 07:54 PM	Okay. Tactics. Throw out some tactics, and I'll throw out ways to counter them. Given Elminster's Intelligence (especially if it's the level it SHOULD be), spellcaster level, Chosen status, and personal friendship with the most powerful goddess in the pantheon, note that pretty much any counter-strategy I could provide would fully be within the realms of Elminster's capability and ingenuity. After all, I'm only a lowly 0-level commoner with a decent Intelligence source, rather than a milennia+ year old Archmage supergenius. I think, in great part, that the power levels of wizard characters are never played to their full potential because the DMs and Players themselves are not intelligent enough to reflect such characters appropriately. I've broken entire games (D&D and Mage) playing heavy-spellcaster types, and any powerful spellcaster with an insanely high Int should be able to wreck absolute havoc.
Mula 10-08-05, 12:43 PM	GothicDan, it’s perfectly ok for the DM to forbid certain races or classes or race-class combinations. However, if you go about saying that NPC X is just impossible to kill because a) I really like that NPC and don’t want to see them die, or b) killing NPC X is so hard that it’s practically impossible (don’t bother!), you will twist the rules of your world in a very metagamey manner and harm the verisimilitude, cause the world to seem less logical. I’m a very story-based DM and a player; combat only serves to improve the story in my games. However, as a DM, I’m not the only one telling the story—the players are there too. When you say, “because it would in some way break or distort my setting/story in a way that it wasn't supposed to go”, you take away a piece of the illusion of verisimilitude you’ve created. Suddenly there are these invisible walls the players can’t pass, placed there by the DM to railroad the game into a direction he’s imagined beforehand for the players or for the world. The players themselves feel they’ve lost free will, instead of just the characters losing control (which is perfectly ok). And that’s not good because it creates frustration and makes the game a worse experience.
Thaingrim 10-08-05, 01:00 PM	I really have trouble with the big taboo around killing powerfull npc , or taking theyr place.... in my games , my players are the heroes , so they do whatever the hell they want.... and if they get carried away and act really stupid , you warn them first , and if they press on , you stop them in game ... but i'm pretty sure that if u ever said "no 'cuz i said so" half of them would leave , and they would be right to
GothicDan 10-08-05, 01:52 PM	I will never say "No, because I say so," but I will indeed say, "No, because the history of the culture of the area does not have any precedent for this, and the religion of the race does not preach this, and there is nowhere you could learn it.." etc. There will always be an in-game reason for something not to happen. And lastly, Mula, I am confused; I didn't respond to any of your posts directly, I don't think. What do you mean we're not on the same page?
Mula 10-08-05, 02:02 PM	Zandilar brought up a similar viewpoint as you did, Dan, but in the end, we were on the same page. You and I weren't when you wrote the post to which I responded.
GothicDan 10-08-05, 08:13 PM	Uh. Yes. I didn't even read any of your posts in regards to Zandilar. Why would I be trying to be on the same page as you? :p
Mula 10-08-05, 10:01 PM	Just ignore the being on the same page, all right. GothicDan, it’s perfectly ok for the DM to forbid certain races or classes or race-class combinations. However, if you go about saying that NPC X is just impossible to kill because a) I really like that NPC and don’t want to see them die, or b) killing NPC X is so hard that it’s practically impossible (don’t bother!), you will twist the rules of your world in a very metagamey manner and harm the verisimilitude, cause the world to seem less logical. I’m a very story-based DM and a player; combat only serves to improve the story in my games. However, as a DM, I’m not the only one telling the story—the players are there too. When you say, “because it would in some way break or distort my setting/story in a way that it wasn't supposed to go”, you take away a piece of the illusion of verisimilitude you’ve created. Suddenly there are these invisible walls the players can’t pass, placed there by the DM to railroad the game into a direction he’s imagined beforehand for the players or for the world. The players themselves feel they’ve lost free will, instead of just the characters losing control (which is perfectly ok). And that’s not good because it creates frustration and makes the game a worse experience.
VedicDragon 10-12-05, 03:28 PM	Wow, I, like others, was content to watch this debate continue. However, I saw some comments that lead me to throw my 2 copper’s worth in, so here goes. First and foremost, it should be understood what kind of campaign this is. Keep in mind that Greenwood & Co, as much as I enjoy their writing thoroughly, and the setting in general, have a tendency to keep some relatively wonky NPC’s kicking around. Hey, I suppose it beats Dragonlance’s kill-them-ALL-off-and-Era-SKIP! Mentality to things, which brings its own host of problems. So succinctly put, if you are setting out to alter a setting drastically/kill an iconic npc, with your DM’s ok, then you recognize and acknowledge (as must we all, logically) that this campaign is going to at least have a 2/3 chance of deviation from standard Realms “canon”. That’s assuming a (VERY) generous 1/3 chance in an epic campaign of success (completion of the task, not survival), 1/3 of permanently maiming/affecting/altering said character or the realms in the attempt and 1/3 on just flat-out failing. Those values may seem arbitrary, but I feel that’s as even a slice at the possibility/probability ratio for gauging it. That being said, cool, I can respect that. El’s been kicking around far too long anyways. For the original Poster: That being said, I have these points of advice as a longstanding roleplayer, realms far, and DM who is all for letting the players accomplish what they-can, (read: Not “whatever they want”) after I put them through the meatgrinder: 1.) Come up with your character’s persona, background, history, etc. What are his goals and why? Do you really have a 3-dimensional personality? Is there a reason he has this goal besides “I’m an arrogant red-wizard and we ownz j00 Chosen of Mystra?” The leetspeak is not meant to be derogatory but to demonstrate my point. What was your character’s childhood like? Did this NPC loom over them like a shadow, and was that behavior characteristic for this NPC? 2.) Strengths /Weaknesses- What are your target’s strengths and weaknesses? What of these do you know (without, to my mind, cheating and just looking up the NPC’s stats, which as others have gotten emotional and said earlier, IS cheesier than my favorite Deluxe Kraft Dinner) 3.) Research-Your character finds out that which they don’t know about the NPC. Any realms character could spend easily a decade and not find out all they want to know. 4.) Versatility-Set up several scenarios based on your research. Has this attempt been tried before? Anything similar? How was it counteracted? Compare all factors in these prior Controls to your hypothesized plan/plans. 5.) Plan 5-10 steps ahead. Assuming this is a longterm goal (and it is), what if you succeed? Any 6.) Hope for the best and plan for the worst For the General populace quoting Greenwood on “Since our sales are up, we assume we have a silent majority etc etc etc”. This is based largely on a fallacy, and has several inconsistencies: 1.) While I will cede there is probably indeed a silent majority of realms novel fans who would hate to see any of their favorite metaplot characters die, they are not necessarily roleplayers. To assume that they are or even a 2/3 ratio are is poor logic. In my admittedly limited but not-inconsiderable experience 95% (that’s not a made up statistic. One out of every 20 RP’ers I’ve gamed with/talked to) would love to see Elminster/Drizz’t/SOME persistent metaplot character die. Granted not all agree on which/who/how many but OF that total I can say the VAST majority of those side with El as #1 on their hit-list. 2.) I myself am an Elminster fan. I like the novels. Mr. Greenwood’s a writer that I enjoy. That being said, good novel character does NOT equal good NPCs. Or shall we have Rand al-Thor, Richard Rahl, Belgarion of Riva and other Iconic contemporary fantasy legends running roughshod over the foes of Faerun? I thought not. As a novel such a concept might seem intriguing. As a regular metaplot for a roleplaying campaign, I’ld be driven to another gaming group if I saw that, as the DM would basically be, as it’s called in LARP, Monster-bating. The Elminster that is written in the Novels, I find to be a meddler on an epic scale, while the Elminster in the game setting . . . The roleplay notes should keep any DM from letting El do what he does in the fiction books, and upstaging PC’s. HOWEVER . . . . that is in SPITE of the character’s personality IMO, not –because- of it. However I will also cede that such is also the contradictory appeal of the character that many have come to enjoy. 3.) Lastly, in the base elements of Mr. Greenwood’s statement, the inherent assumption that money is the ultimate gauge of what the fans desire is also inherently flawed. Availability is a lot of it as well, and exposure. Take for example the currently “Dropped” or “in limbo” campaign settings (I need not name them, right?). These are currently floating in limbo because allegedly they couldn’t compete in profits and thus “customer appeal” with the current main-stays of the D&D Universe: FR & Greyhawk. That being said, this is a combination of advertising, exposure, customer base’s financial leverage/flexibility and finally, timing. If you release a new edition (those three core books, 3.0, right?) and the campaign setting (FR, not counting Greyhawk as it’s more or less included in the PHB and Gazeteer) and say, one of the further class books beyond it (Tome & Blood). Well let’s see that’s over 100-120 dollar investment right there. Now, factor in the new edition (gotta buy those updates, right?) is an additional $90.00 or so investment. (I’m hypothesizing from a DM angle, as presumably this is the bottleneck for any gaming group. It’s not 100% accurate and there are solutions, but frankly the majority would find this the stopgap). Now, Having spent 200-something dollars to get the base books and the Iconic campaign setting, there are now the regional expansions. Each of these is $30.00. Finally, timing . . . just –recently- (relative) Dragonlance 3E became available from WotC. So, by the time Dark Sun, Planescape or (flavor campaign here) products come out, this is astronomically worse. I could explore this further and look backwards at 2nd edition, but the factors I stated are what tears apart Mr. Greenwood’s reaction of “implied silent consent via cash output”, as a gross oversimplification. But then again I cannot really fault him or WotC over any other Consumer Goods corporation, as it’s a misconception that many of them share, and I have, myself, seen Hasbro enact through its subsidiary, Wizards. To DM’s who believe that canon is canon, and shouldn’t be altered: I can certainly respect your views on this. Hope you are developing your own little corner of this world we enjoy. That being said, as many have told me in my hidebound days of clinging to 2nd Edition, “Stasis breeds Stagnation. Change –can- be a good thing!” To DM’s eager to kill off major NPC’s and alter metaplot: More power to you! It’s your game. But if the Players are to be your instrument, don’t make it easy! It’s perfectly ok for the DM to forbid certain races or classes or race-class combinations. However, if you go about saying that NPC X is just impossible to kill because a) I really like that NPC and don’t want to see them die, or b) killing NPC X is so hard that it’s practically impossible (don’t bother!), you will twist the rules of your world in a very metagamey manner and harm the verisimilitude, cause the world to seem less logical. I’m a very story-based DM and a player; combat only serves to improve the story in my games. However, as a DM, I’m not the only one telling the story—the players are there too. When you say, “because it would in some way break or distort my setting/story in a way that it wasn't supposed to go”, you take away a piece of the illusion of verisimilitude you’ve created. Suddenly there are these invisible walls the players can’t pass, placed there by the DM to railroad the game into a direction he’s imagined beforehand for the players or for the world. The players themselves feel they’ve lost free will, instead of just the characters losing control (which is perfectly ok). And that’s not good because it creates frustration and makes the game a worse experience. I couldn’t agree with this more. Seriously, you saved me another couple paragraphs of writing. And finally, in addendum, none of my statements are meant to be an attack on Wizards of the Coast’s as an entity, whose products I do indeed enjoy, nor Mr. Greenwood. Simply a Consumer’s critique of their corporate policy. *puts on flame retardant gear*