Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Chosen of Bane 03-08-05, 07:03 PM	I am just curious to see what peoples' opinion's are when it comes to killing off iconic characters in your campaigns? For example. Have you or your PC parties ever killed one of the Chosen, a Lord of Waterdeep, a famous Harper (such as Bran Scorlsun), or a "bad guy" like Manshoon? I usually try not to let this happen when I DM because I all of my campaigns build on each other and I try not to alter the "real" realms. So if I kill off Elminster (example only, don't jump down my throat) and in a future sourcebook something realms changing happens because of him than "my realms" turn into a sort of "homebrew" world. The main reason I ask is that there is a chance of the party I am currently DMing to try to assassinate/kill Caledni (sp?), the royal wizard of Cormyr. She is not nearly as powerful as the Chosen or other iconic characters and is defnitely "kill-able" if that is a high level parties goal. (the party members are members of the Zhentarim). Any thoughts? Should I let this happen? I almost feel like not letting it happen would be rail-roading or making the game not fun for the players but on the other hand next time I run a campaign there won't be a Caledni, and if she has future impact in a sourcebook/novel then I'm screwed. I look forward to your opinions.
Ivarrius 03-08-05, 07:08 PM	As with any plan to kill these iconic characters, you would have to allow them to configure an indepth plan, and act it out thereafter. You would deem the efficiency of said plan by your own accord, and if it sounds feasible remember one thing - these iconic characters are strong, and in their positions because they think the way scheming players would think. They protect themselves, and generally have many allies protecting them as well. The stronger the NPC the deeper the plan would have to go, and the more work they would have to do to enact it. But they could very easily attempt something like this, though I find that so many of these characters to be well protected and unwilling to die usually. Especially wizards and casters. They will escape before they allow themselves to be dispatched. Other than that, fill your boots. And though I won't pick on the Elminster comment, look at my sig ;)
Muddman 03-08-05, 07:32 PM	The thing about iconic characters is that they usually have escape plans for death. Manshoon has his clones, Elminster has his evasion and the rest of them have hordes of people willing to resurrect them (just like alot of the pcs) Besides, just ecause something important happens in the realms doesn't mean you can't come up with an NPC to fill the void. If Elminster dies, then Khelban can do the job. If Khelban has moved on to an extra dimensional fortress, forsaking the realms forever, then the Master of Mists can take his place. Personally, I usually try to do something to one of the iconic characters to keep my players on their feet. If they see that I'm willing to screw with Elminster, sending their 30th level characters through a portal to hell is not outside my reach. It also makes them more important in the scope of world events since they can't run to Elminster every time a demon lord is raised. As far as the klling of the Royal Wizard of Cormyr, they can try. She is actually a sorceress and if she's at a disadvantage, she'll run (teleport away). I've had characters try to kill Fzoul Chembryl and it almost worked (they were 25th level at the time), but he got away because of his dozen (and yes it took that many) escape options (but they did kill Scyllua Darkhope, whom Fzoul resurrected later).
Kuje31 03-08-05, 07:35 PM	I tend to not kill of iconic npc's either. It takes to much work to figure out how it would effect the world/nation/city/etc, if they are gone. :) But then I tend to NOT use iconic npc's either unless there's a reason for doing so. All my PC's will ever know, in character, is that El is a sage of shadowdale. Storm is a famous bard and maybe a Harper leader, if the game takes that turn. Etc. In 10 years of DMing FR PC's have met maybe a handful of iconic npcs.
Heron_Marked_Blade 03-08-05, 08:00 PM	I'm a big fan of not bringing iconic NPCs into the path of PCs. Part of that reason is because of the way the good iconics (in novels), tend to be careful of crossing paths with people (PCs) who may make a positive difference in the Realms, because doing so might bring the PCs to the unwanted attention of Epic baddies. Often the safest thing for the PCs is to NEVER meet Elminster or the Simbul. That's not to say that the iconics won't "meddle" in their lives somehow -- who's to say that the scroll PC Wizard found in the cave behind his parents' farm that inspired him to study the arcane arts wasn't left there by Elminster? Or the Moonstar agent who provides a tip for the group wasn't led to do so by Khelben Blackstaff? And, of course, the iconic NPCs are busy doing whatever it is they do, and those things rarely ever lead them to cross paths with the PCs. At Epic levels, it becomes a little more difficult since the playing field narrows a lot more. I tend to be much more free with the writeups of iconic NPCs when PCs reach 20th+ level. The iconics tend to be more powerful than their official writeups show. What? Well, of course they haven't been sitting on their rear ends while the PCs have been adventuring. They've been destroying fiends in Hell, or traveling the Planes, or dealing with the phaerimm/Shade invasion. And yes, they are still powerful enough that PCs should be scared to mess with them. That doesn't mean they can't be destroyed (look at Sylune), but the chances of that happening are slim. Quite slim. I don't think it's healthy for PCs to feel as though they're strong enough to ride roughshod over anyone they meet. If they do feel that way, I've failed as a DM to impart the reality of the Realms to them.
Chosen of Bane 03-08-05, 08:14 PM	Yeah, as I mentioned in the original post I don't like bringing in iconic characters either. However, this case feels different because the PC's are members of the Zhentarim and they have dedicated their carears to thwarting Cormyr. They obviously know "who" the royal wizard is, and by the time they are nearing epic levels it is a feasible option to kill Caledni. Especially with proper planning. I have never brought an iconic character into my games. I have never had too. With good PC's (which is what EVERY game I have DM'd until this one consisted of) there is less need to bring in iconics. They are easily avoided by the DM. But in this particular game the PC's want to seek out the royal wizard. PS. I will stat her out to be much more powerful PPS I agree, The Chosen shouldn't be brought into a campaign unless absolutely necessary (and I have yet to see what could make that occurence necessary)
Ivarrius 03-08-05, 08:21 PM	I was playing a very powerful wizard once and had the opportunity to meet Elminster. It was a fun roleplaying session as the game had gone on for over a year. But he didn't do anything other than telling my character "Well I suggest you don't waste anymore time here, and you go figure it out!" Haha that old Coot! But yes, the reasons for introducing Iconic characters should be a good one, and reasons and means of killing one should be nigh on flawless.
Cole Deschain 03-08-05, 09:47 PM	If the party's plan is "wade in and triumph via superior firepower," then my answer is no. These people have often survived a long time, and part of that means having contingency after contingency after contingency. However, I also have a rule that nobody is truly "off-limits." Essentially, if you can come up with a plan clever enough and multi-tiered enough, if you can plot a counter for their every possible move, then yeah, you might get your chance to kill Drizzt. Just don't expect me to make it easy. And if you succeed, beware- because most of these guys have buddies, and those buddies may come looking for the cold-hearted murderers who did in their pal. In one campaign, I actually allowed the party to kill Khelben... just for the pleasure of unleashing an enraged Laeral on them. With some help from her Sisters. Less than a day after their incredibly hard fight against Blackstaff. It's not so funny when you don;t get a chance to heal up between major life or death battles.
Grishnor 03-08-05, 10:22 PM	been running an evil campaign for 3 years now. Lowest level player just started out at 27. The top player is a level 16 Rouge/15 Cleric of Mask Drow/Shade Chosen of Mask. The players have killed off some big npc's even lesser gods and alot Demon Princes during their tenure in the Abyss atempting to get to the 213th layer to get the Legendary Golem Armor for the 20 Fighter 10 Kensai Human. It's your campaign, FR is just the setting. They provide the tools and details for you to use and introduce. If the players wack good ole elminster then kudos to them. Just be realistic in consequences when retribution comes for the big named NPC's that get killed. And certain global and even interplanar reprucussions. The group I run has ALOT of people that dislike them, especially because most of them are evil and have evil and good factions after them. Thats why most stay safely in Sigil and use powerful magic to exit through portals secretly if they need to go anywhere. But enough ranting about my pitiful game. Feel free to kill off NPC's man, its just one reason they are there :)
The Simbul 03-09-05, 12:05 AM	Depending upon the actions, backstory, and roleplaying of the PC's they will have one of three relationship types with any given NPC in my campaigns; Ally Indifferent Enemy 99% of the time they have an indifferent relationship, for I am not fond of having powerful characters save the PC's from every turn of ill fortune (at least not directly), nor do I like to have them cross paths in a aggressive fashion either (at least not directly). If they are allies, then the assumption is the PC's will not seek to harm them, and they are almost entirely used as plot devices, quest givers, or the occassional deliverer of some small minor form of aid or useful information. If they are indifferen,t then for all intents and purposes the NPC never comes into play in the campaign unless something specifically provokes them. The PC's arent going to run into Drizzt in a forest somewhere, and if they visit the High Palace in Silverymoon chances are Alustriel is either not there or the guards wont grant an audience to "unknown and possibly unscrupulous adventurers". If they are enemies, then I occasionally have the NPC cause some form of conflict in the PC's life, assuming the PC doesnt strike first, usually through subordinates or the like. If they do directly confront each other, and the NPC is "defeated" (note that "defeat" can take a multitude of forms that do not result in death, such as escape, etc), then I basically give the NPC the same treatment that you would expect to see in any TV series with a villain character; in that they are defeated, but almost never irrevocably destroyed and could easily comeback as an adversary in the future should the writers (or DM in this case) feel it necessary. While i tend to give the PC the notion that the NPC might seek vengence in the future, this is rarely the case unless the harm dealt to them was devastating, and even then it may take a while for such revenge plans to come to fruition. However in my campaisn Iconic NPC's are assumed to be ready for potential threats and assasins under most circumstances, for in most cases there are far more people who have sought to slay them than simply one PC with a grudge or a loose motivation. Furthermore, the more powerful or renown an NPC is, the less likely I am to pull any punches. I have had an entire adventuring party wiped out by Szass Tam when a particularly annoying PC kept trying to stray from the plot, claiming that they should go confront him directly under the assumption that he could "easily" kill him (apparently by virtue of his player examining his ELH stats). Sadly enough, the said PC grossly underestimated the potency of Circle Magic and the kind of resources the de-facto ruler of a mercantile-slave magocracy has at his disposal; as well as the kind of cunning intellect and preparedness for assasination that comes from being the oldest surviving Zulkir of Thay. In addition, even if you do slay someone, its not like the murder occurs in a vaccum. Nations, Organizations, allies,or even the Godes themselves may seek retribution in one form or another, and the more prominent an NPC is the more likely their potential murders will go through hell (either figuratively or in some cases literaly) for the act of slaying them.
Sage_of_Shadowdale 03-09-05, 12:35 AM	Caladnei would be a good choice to kill if she didn't have the immediate protection of Vangerdahast, who is an amazingly powerful and longlived mage. And Vangerdahast has the ear and help of Elminster(as Vangey was his apprentice), so it's a series of who will help who. Taking out a Zulkir might be a better option, as a lower level zulkir candidate might help out and the already selfish red wizards won't really help a fellow. Or take out some top members of the Harpers, and not the independent or moonstar ones. Another way is to find ol' drizzt on one of his hunts and slay him. He won't take much for a high level party to take out, and retribution from his companions will be severe but slow. The Drizzt angle happened in one of my old Cormanthor games. A party of elves and half-elves were cleansing their northern cormanthor settlement of drow and fiends. They eventually lost some key npcs and players to drow, and began a genocide against drowkind, which led them to the western heartlands. They ran into Drizzt and attempted to kill him, but he defended himself and eventually fled after moderately injuring all the PCs. But killing off iconic npcs(or pcs in your camp that are iconic) is a good way to personalize your campaign and not have to tiptoe around realmlore that you don't really care about or that doesn't affect your camp. The Sage
Kuje31 03-09-05, 01:09 AM	Caladnei would be a good choice to kill if she didn't have the immediate protection of Vangerdahast, who is an amazingly powerful and longlived mage. And Vangerdahast has the ear and help of Elminster(as Vangey was his apprentice), so it's a series of who will help who. Spoiler. : : : : : : : : : Vangy's a dragon now. :) See Elminster's Daughter.
The Simbul 03-09-05, 01:40 AM	Spoiler. : : : [spoiler sniped].Bloody hell, why do I always have to look.. :rolleyes: Sigh, I suppose if a Palantir was sitting in front of me, then I would be the most likely candidate to pull a "Pippin" (as in Return of the King , at least in the film version..I cant remeber the books all that well at the moment). Regardless, back to the main topic I think the War Wizards (or rather any enclave of wizards) would prove to be a nasty opponent to earn the wrath of. Even a few low level ones could ambush you in your sleep or while wounded, or send summoned beings to do the same, if one does not take all the necessary and proper warding precautions.
Kuje31 03-09-05, 02:26 AM	Bloody hell, why do I always have to look.. :rolleyes: Sigh, I suppose if a Palantir was sitting in front of me, then I would be the most likely candidate to pull a "Pippin" (as in Return of the King , at least in the film version..I cant remeber the books all that well at the moment). Hey, least I can't get yelled at for not putting a spoiler! :)
Zevox 03-09-05, 08:54 PM	Sigh, I suppose if a Palantir was sitting in front of me, then I would be the most likely candidate to pull a "Pippin" (as in Return of the King , at least in the film version..I cant remeber the books all that well at the moment). Yep, thats in the books too (albeit in The Two Towers as opposed to The Return of the King) :) . Zevox
BrianCritchley 03-09-05, 11:28 PM	my players have in my FR campaign run into Ionic NPCs all of TWICE. they did a personal favor for storm silverhand and the party dwarf got into a smoke ring blowing contest with the "crotchety old man in the cornerof the Old Skull after meeting with Storm" (too this day I'm not sure my PCs even realize they met Elminister:)
JWSIII 03-10-05, 01:43 AM	I don't think my players have ever met an Iconic (unless the Syl-Pasha of Calimshan is an iconic - not really sure on the definitions). Its not that I have anything for or against killing them, its just that they are so Iconic that they have fully fleshed out personalitites that wouldn't necessarily do what I need for my campaign to advance at the moment. And I played to an average group level of 29 for one two-year campaign before dropping it for lack of realistic scenarios availible... No idea what to do if a party set out to kill Iconic NPC's except let them try but don't pull the counter punches, which is really how I handle anytime a group starts throwing its weight around. After all, its not hard to rob a jewel store, its hard to not get caught, beat, and thrown in jail thereafter. I assume the same logic applies to killing Iconics. Just have the war wizards burn down their base or kill a couple of their favorite underlings. Don't even need to ambush them or anything, just have a realistic and fairly painful penalty to discourage rampant thug-style assasinations.
Marakul 03-10-05, 06:49 AM	A couple of years ago me and my friends played the 2e Spellbound adventure. During the adventure you meet Simbul (so we did) and the high point of the adventure is infiltrating Szass Tams fortress, freeing Eltab(the demon bound on that artifact chair Szass Tam got from Larloch) and killing Szass Tam. WIth the help of Eltab (well not really, he was so angry for his imprisonment that he simply attacked Szass Tam) we killes Szass Tam. For a week or two. Of course he hid his phylactery, and he did so well. More or less, we did kill an iconic character, but he actually came back soon afterwards. I was also DMing the 2e adventure How mighty are fallen, in which PCs have to collect the material components for Karsus, for his spell that stole Mystryls (old Mystra) power and destroyed the Netheril. At the moment of Karsus casting his spell the PCs were battling Wulgreth and came close to destroying him. My point is: Even Wotc make adventures in which iconic characters are center of the plot, why else would iconic characters exist?
RogerWilco 03-11-05, 12:33 PM	We're currently playing the 2nd edition Times of Troubles and we run into important NPC's constantly. (Yes we're still playing a mix of 2nd and 3.5) (Shadowdale, Tantras, waterdeep) I find it fun as a player to be part of adventures that follow the story Ed Greenwood had in mind for the FR. The Silver Marches is the best FR 3.5 book I've bought sofar, because it's got some nice mini adventures. I find it a pitty that there are no more real game modules, so you can play the history of the realms yourself, without the DM needing to do ton's of work. The next time I'm DM (we switch) the party is probably going to be sent against the giants in the Evermores (defend Nesme etc.), but I have no idea what Ed Greenwood and Richard Baker have in mind so I'm facing the same problems are you are, but we've run out of old 2nd edition modules in our possesion.
Ivarrius 03-11-05, 06:44 PM	Hey, least I can't get yelled at for not putting a spoiler! :) Isnt there a Spoiler Button or text cover you can make? like this? Not that it would help the curious george's out there...
Zevox 03-11-05, 09:18 PM	Isnt there a Spoiler Button or text cover you can make? like this? Not that it would help the curious george's out there... Yep. The [sblock] command. Just encase what you want to be in it the way you would with any other code tag, and voila. Though you're right, it doesn't help when you're curious enough to look anyway. Zevox
Ryvin 03-11-05, 10:06 PM	The other thing about trying to kill Caledni is that, while it might be a beatable encounter CR wise, it's not that she's only got friends who will avenge her death (and really, if adventurers can afford resurrection, you don't think the Royal House of Corymr can? She can come back herself to get the PCs should they succeed). But she's not likely to be fighting alone unless the PCs can catch her completely by surprise and ALSO isolate her. She's not some Orc by the side of the road waiting to be the victim of a random encounter (an unending tragedy that still plagues the orc world... so sad :weep: ), Caledni's at least got an apprentice and some Purple Dragon Knights around to cause the PCs some grief. Sure they might not be the biggest threat to the PCs but the more guards they have to swat aside, the more time Caledni has to escape, do some serious damage of her own, or get some BBGGs to teleport in and smite some evil. You should absolutely let the party try, but make sure they have to really earn that kill.
Ladern 03-11-05, 11:17 PM	Come on boys, everybody wants to kill an iconic character (everyone except me, but im a CN Rogue tiefling that no one likes and doesnt like anyone). Finally it's up to the DM. I would think that some characters are more difficult to kill that others (Killing Caladnei is like trying to destroy the entire War wizards; i remember the "Commander ring" that allow to comunicate with anyone that has a Purple dragon ring. So i think that in the 2nd round of combat you would be surrounded by 30 pointing fingers shining in the green light of a desintegration spell) Well after all if your DM allows that to happend it can be for a good or bad reason. BAD) your Dm has no imagination enough for creating a real nasty NPC of his own devise that gives the PCs the right reasons to want to kill him, so he must use the fame or unfame of other characters to make them a nice prize. GOOD) The DM has a good plot that involves a iconic character cause the history need it, and killing the iconic character is a real campaing (after all the iconic characters hold important positions in many organizations, so you are not fighting the character, you are fighting the organization). I also think that a campaing of 4 characters of 45th level is just a bit too over the line. I know that everyone loved the idea of epic characters but having a character until he can challenge the gods themselves. I like that the world have some sense and for some reason the NPCs are less than 25 level, cause its difficult to archive lots of levels. If anyone with just enough experience can archive 50th level Elminster that is one of the oldest beings of Toril would have many more levels.
Doctor_Jello 03-24-05, 03:02 AM	whats wrong with 70th level characters. Its simple to give them higher levels, and with that I do. normally I take the dieties and make their portfolio based class up an additional 20 so that way they can acquire more feats, and epic spells at that. The main thing with level 70 characters is they have goals and ambitions, each player should know their character, and the DM knows their character. And can be Hindered as such. Its to easy. Most of the Icons I have stay 5 levels higher than the party, and I also apply the paragon template to make them more significant. I changed the Night King of the night masks into a vampire lord, and applied the paragon template as well. Epic Campaigns are fun. The highest level characters we have played were level 70, and they were tired of this world and created one of their own. The NE cleric created a shadow weave and origins of divinity. The LN Wizard, created a weave and law with which casters can abide by(mystra's ban). The NG Druid created the forests, animals and water and the CN Barbarian created all things chaotic and wild magic zones. The cleric then casted shatter soul on his allies and himself to create 70 different creatures with each persons soul's alignment. *one creature per caster level sacrificed. in different points of this world. The 4 became statues. The divinity created by the cleric took a few years. After what had happened, the 4 became statues.and the creations created a shrine. At this time the new dieties came to the mortal realm 20 years later and found the statues and rose the statues and the land mass into the skies, which became the new divine realm. They were reborn 13000 years later as mortals to walk among the *my edited* Forgotten Realms World as 3rd level gestalt characters. The wizard became a Saruhk underway from the present wiz/cleric, the Druid became a Hoary Hunter underway monk/druid from the present; and the Barbarian became a human evoker/fighter from the present. The cleric became a sorc/cleric female drow from the city of netheril. But yes it all depends on the DM. we play every weekend all day saturday and sunday. we been playing for around 1/2 a year and the new guys are level 45. they started with the d20 tap system. roll a d20 and tap it once or take the roll which ever is better. you get the best out of four numbers by doing that. and it makes for some good overpowering overwhelming game play. not only that but the reason why is the PC's created new NPC's. The most remorable was bob the email imp. The cleanup up Baalzebul's layer of hell and its transformation into the largest Casino and shopping mall that only accepted Credit Cards. Imagine transforming manshoon into a statue and placing his face up and opening his mouth in the middle of a Aviary. Num Nums. These are things my players did to have fun. What was worse, was the newest drug on the street the grilled cheese samich. after getting all the imps addicted, they cut off the supply. They had fun casting wish, you know "i wish you would make me a grilled cheese samich" and they did. They became a grilled cheese sandwich. This was all because the wizard wanted to have a little too much fun. What was bad was..... the imps evolved in intelligence. *18 intellegence. Bob the email imp was a smug imp with A capital E on him, with the amount of souls he bought with his artifact he gained infinite souls. with which to buy a permanent contingent true ressurection spell. His artifact..... the mending grilled cheese samich which is always warm. it self repaired itself every time someone took a bite out of it. He was the lord of the imp kingdom. But next came the mountain dew with which had a mindeffecting quality. Ash mephits, who were lazy, if you were there they would work, but when you weren't they wouldn't do squat. So, with some Mountain Dew they did the exact opposite. D&D Should be fun. NPC's are fun, but most of all, make them memorable. after all, how else can they be an icon. as far as killing them all is fair in love and imps. Like John, THe thayan plumber. The master of Drain-0. First encountered in the sewers of water deep. but any ways. without further adew, and a six pack of mountain dew. I am finished
Darth K'Trava 03-24-05, 10:45 PM	And though I won't pick on the Elminster comment, look at my sig ;) I think the poster was using him as an example as he's the most recognizable one of the "NPCs" other than Drizzt.
Chosen of Bane 03-25-05, 07:52 AM	I think the poster was using him as an example as he's the most recognizable one of the "NPCs" other than Drizzt. That's exactly what I was doing.
Damien_Hiro 03-25-05, 08:39 AM	All of the Chosen are dead in my world, except for the Simbul. I like iconic NPCs to a point. For the most part they are just high level expendibles. I try to focus on the PC's more and how they effect the world than the NPCs.
SammasterT 03-25-05, 10:31 AM	I don't often have my players come across iconic npc's. If they do, the npc's tend to be pc's that were played years ago, and which have long since been retired. Of course, I have killed off the Knights of Myth Drannor, in order to drive home the seriousness of the events that were unfolding in my HBFR. I have no problem with pc's chosing to go after an iconic character, but then, these do tend to be VERY experienced and exceptional people, so if they think I would play them stupid and that its going to be like killing an uber-orc they have another thing coming. Afterall, they supposed to be iconic for a reason, and as already mentioned several times, these folks have contingency plans for just such occurences. Whats the boyscout motto?!?!? I don't think much about departing from canon FR. Afterall, I own the canon material and hitting reset is even easier than it is on the PS2. That, and I buy accessories to help me, not restrain me or to replace my own native creativity. In my HBFR the Bedine aren't very Arab like and are more like the Fremen from Dune, the Riders of the Ride arent mongol like, but are the descendents of Netheril, there is no grand dungeon beneath Waterdeep (its beneath the ruins of Orolin instead, and is ruled by a powerful wizard calling himself the Dungeon Master), Tristan Kendrick is long dead, Randal Morn is dead, a Cormaeril sits as new lord of Daggerdale, the archwizards of Netheril never returned, Darkhold is in the hands of Tiamat and Sammaster, and while Tilverton has been destroyed, King Azoun slain, and Old Cormyr north ravaged, the reasons in my campaign are very different. In fact, Old Cormyr is living more up to its name than ever in my HBFR, ever since Immeresk broke off and formed its own independent kingdom. I detailed and mapped out Unther with a complete disregard for the sourcebook ... which I subsequently bought anyway, to use for whatever it was worth. What will I do when new accessories emerge? Either tweek it to fit my HBFR, or ignore it, but chances are most of it will fit in good and proper. Anyway, I'm sure that there are enough wizards in Cormyr to fill the role of the slain IF your PC's actually succeed in their assassination plot.
Xavier_of_Cormyr 03-25-05, 10:40 AM	what's the big deal anyway. Iconic NPCs can die in every game session you have, we all known that they'd have someone raise them, wish them back, divine intervention, clones.... shall I continue? It's not that big of a problem for DMs. My advice is to... 1) do not saturate your FR campaign with iconic NPCs. Are you playing with your PCs of someone elses? It all about YOUR characters, not Ed Greenwood's. 2) If your party get a itch to kill some major NPC, then let them play it through; play out every little painstaking detail & make it the most horrible, time consuming, ordeal which costs a PC or two everything they have. Make them loose all taste for iconic head hunting, that they'll never get that itch again. 3) Like I said, the iconic NPC will most definitly be resurrected by some means anyway.
75RD Drum Clip 05-08-05, 01:36 AM	When I first started my FR campaign, the players were gung-ho to slay Iconics, particularly the Chosens and I was fairly agreeable to let them try. They succeeded in getting Khelben, Storm Silverhand, The Simbul and Dove Falconhand. They made an attempt at Laeral and Elminster and failed. We felt that they stifled the growth potential for the campaign. I know many on these boards would not dare to let their PCs succeed or even try to slay the Chosen or other Iconics. I was glad to let the players try, their plans were good and ended up working. Since then, I have felt much better planning my own adventures and storylines. Removing some Iconics has placed the spotlight squarely on the PCs, where it belongs. Each DM and group is different. Fun is the bottomline.