Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Swordwraith 06-23-03, 10:24 AM	Does anyone else find the prcs for knightly orders(specifically Purple Dragon, and Knight errant of Silverymoon) to be somewhat useless? I would really like to give one of them a try, as I would like to play a knight, but it just doesnt seem worth taking the Prc. Even the knight prcs from sword and fist failed to impress me overmuch. The deadly charge for the cavalier was nice, but other than that these prcs seem to be lacking. For example, most divine and arcane prcs, get special abilities in addition to their normal spell progression, yet the knight prcs gain no fighter feats, just a few special abilities that dont extend to become very powerful. If anyone has made these prcs work well before, or just have some helpful tips or modifications to these prcs, input is welcome.
Silvertongue 06-23-03, 01:18 PM	I made up a Prc for one of my players called 'Dark Knight' (don't worry, it's not evil) would you like me to post it? I would have to locate the character first though. It may even be overpowered! :D
loki87 06-23-03, 08:48 PM	PrC's like the Purple Dragons and Knights of Silver aren't really designed for PC's. There is too much devotion to a miltary organization to make them very flexible for adventuring. My advice to you is to take the parts you like from those PrC's and mix them with some from the PrC's Sword and Fist or any other book and create your own knightly PrC.
Swordwraith 06-23-03, 10:52 PM	I would love to see your Dark Knight Prc Silvertongue(my anecdote for extra things, or overpowered things, and pretty much everything in life is "Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it. I concede your point loki, but seriously NPC PrC's, that's kind of a strange concept. You have made me feel exceptionally stupid, by not thinking of mixing and matching. You have been an extraordinary help. Although I am still interested to see if anyone has made any of these knightly Prc's work.
ElGrecoETAC 06-24-03, 12:44 AM	I would like to point out that a lot of the PrCs in FRCS and other supplements are meant to reflect geographical and cultural flavor more than competitive powers. Metagaming wise, yeah, it doesn't make much sense to pick up some of them. RP wise, though, if you play some idealistic young kid from Silverymoon who goes from rags to glory as a champion of the land, why wouldn't the PrC interest you? Just an example of course. But yeah, there have been some PrCs that were rather eeeh.... :rolleyes:
Silvertongue 06-24-03, 03:32 PM	O.K. so I made some adjustments first and I know I said it's not evil but it could be if that's the way you wanted to play it, i.e. the name of this Prc should be- "Champion/ Dark Knight/ Excecutioner" ( for LG/ LN/ LE) (for now I'll just use Dark Knight as that is the alignment it was originally created for) The Dark Knight is the stoic right-hand of a feudal lord. He is employed for the missions that make a lesser man shudder. He will perform any task required of him from subtle assassinations to full frontal assault on one faction or another. He obeys without question and offers unswerving loyalty. His reputation preceeds him at least in his home city. The Dark Knight can expect all expenses to be met by his lord and extended hospitality in all cities on good terms with his own. He is knighted for his services and recieves modest pay. Hit Dice Type: d10 Alignment: Any Lawful Race: Any Base Att Bonus: +5 Intimidate: 4 Ranks Knowledge- Nobility & Royalty: 2 Ranks Ride: 4 Ranks Feats: Weapon Focus (any 2 hander); Improved Initiative; Power Attack; Cleave. Class Skills: Climb; Craft; Diplomacy; Gather Information; Intimidate; Jump; Knowledge- Nobility & Royalty; Ride; Sense Motive; Spot; Swim. (Lvl/ BAB/ Fort/ Ref/ Will) 1/ +1/ +2/ +0/ +2 2/ +2/ +3/ +0/ +3 3/ +3/ +3/ +1/ +3 4/ +4/ +4/ +1/ +4 5/ +5/ +4/ +1/ +4 6/ +6/ +5/ +2/ +5 7/ +7/ +5/ +2/ +5 8/ +8/ +6/ +2/ +6 9/ +9/ +6/ +3/ +6 10/ +10/ +7/ +3/ +7 Special Abilities- Lvl 1: Commanding Aura, Reputation, Great Cleave Lvl2: Supreme Cleave Lvl3: Ride By Attack Lvl4: Power Blade, Defensive Combat Lvl5: Spirited Charge Lvl6: Critical Focus Lvl7: Tactitian, Armour Familiarity (+1) Lvl8: Find The gap, Supreme Critical Lvl9: Frightful Presence Lvl10: Power Critical, Armour Familiarity (+2) Commanding Aura- Due to their Dark and stoic nature the knight is acustomed to being obeyed and gains his class level to intimidation rolls. Reputation- The knight is well known and easily recognisable by people of the courts, add class level to all diplomacy rolls regarding nobility and royalty. Power Blade- When weilding his chosen weapon 2 handed he doubles his str bonus to dmg. Defensive Combat- The knight leans to defend himself more accurately with his chosen weapon and gains a +2 to AC (only while weilding his chosen weapon). Critical Focus- When weilding weapon of choice the knight gains the Improved Critical feat, if he already posesses this feat his threat range is increased by 2. Tactitian- The knight, now skilled in tactics, can make one extra melee attack per round against a foe who is denied his dex bonus to AC (for any reason). Armour Familiarity- The knight has spent so much time in armour that he is now accustomed to it's encumberance. his dex check penalty is reduced by 1 at 7th lvl and 2 at 10th lvl. Find the Gap- The knight can take a standard action to study an opponent and ignore 1/2 of their armour bonus (rounded down) on their next attack. Includes natural armour but not shield or magical enhancements. Supreme Critical- The knight is now such a skilled tactical fighter that he can score (almost) critical hits on creatures that are usually immune. When striking a critical against a creature normally immune the knight can add an extra d6 of dmg. Frightful Presence- 1/ day the knight has the ability to cause fear in others. To do so he must make a show of losing his temper (shouting, furious swordplay or simply turning purple) Those failing a saving throw- will DC 10 + Knight level + Cha Bonus- are as if affected by the fear spell (PHB p203) except area of effect is 20ft radius from knight. Power Critical- 1/ day with their chosen weapon the knight can declare a single melee attack roll to be a critical threat before it is rolled. If the resulting roll is a successful hit then the attack is automatically a critical hit. I have already had some further suggestions from my boyfriend who said make the Commanding aura as if the knight is always considered to be taking 10 on all intimidation checks unless specifically stated that they are being nice! Also, if looking for a more tournament based character consider this as a lance weilder (horrific) and ignore the 2 hander bit, remove unnecessary special abilities (Power Blade and Defensive combat)and replace with something more suited to the lancer! The pre-edited version of this Prc was distintively more sneaky which would be good for the Lawful Evil alignment but it's all just suggestion anyway. Incidentally it was done because, yes, the knightly prestige classes have very little to offer and the best idea is to tailor it to your own requirements.
Purple Dragon Knight 06-24-03, 08:31 PM	Well, in the case of Purple Dragon Knight, I've ruled that you can only gain the PrC if you are "knighted" by the King of Cormyr or the Crown Regent (the full two shoulders and head way...) Receiving a knighthood certainly compensate for "a lack of feats" in my campaign, as it instantly makes you a noble (non-hereditary baronet title to be exact). Later on, you can become a Highknight (hereditary baronet); and if you are lucky, you can become a Knight Royal (baron) and serve as a personal bodyguard to the King or Crown Regent. Being a noble in Cormyr has several advantages, notably the right to bear arms, etc. Let me know if you want to know more... PDK
Swordwraith 06-24-03, 10:02 PM	sure, I'd love to hear your ideas on the role playing aspect balancing out the more physical aspects of the prc.
ElGrecoETAC 06-25-03, 01:44 AM	Silvertongue, Not that I have any problem with your PrC, but I have to ask about the broad generalization of a "Dark Knight" that can be found anywhere. Part of the appeal of, say, a Purple Dragon Knight, is that he/she's got some flavor, cultural or otherwise, attached to it. When you leave it at "Dark Knight": a knight who does the bad jobs for his noble, end of statement, you have to wonder why a PrC is as readily available to any sort of Baron from any sort of land. A fighter/man at arms is one thing; nobles can find any number of trained warriors to join their ranks, as no specific organization propagates soldiery, or rogues-for-hire, etc. But what mysterious machine cranks out these mysterious, intimidating, tyranical Dark Knights? Wouldn't it be better to tie their origins to a specific homeland, or--better yet--a religious cult that would explain their access to a Supernatural class ability? For example doesn't a Dark Knight in the FR, as you have written him/her (basically an agent for a harsh ruler), sound like someone who would be tied to the Church of Bane--a deity most tyrants would pay tribute to? The Dark Knights could be an order of temple knights who are sent (individually or in small groups) to be a "helping hand" to nobles allied with or friendly to the teachings of Bane. I'd limit them to LN and LE, give them a signature weapon (like you said, a two-hander), and identifiable armour. Then I'd write 'em up a history, and ta-da. You have a PrC that could be in any part of the realms without being a "faceless" stratum of warriors who happen to develop supernaturally fierce/intimidating demeanors.
Purple Dragon Knight 06-25-03, 05:29 AM	Originally posted by Swordwraith sure, I'd love to hear your ideas on the role playing aspect balancing out the more physical aspects of the prc. Cormyr has traditionally requested a Royal Charter for all adventuring companies to bear arms and operate within Cormyr. Such a Charter can be obtained by the King, or purchased in Suzail, High Horn or Arabel at the cost of 1,000gp. You then have to pay 300gp per year afterwards. This charter entitles the arming of up to 30 men. Being a Knight (or any other type of noble) gives you the right to bear arms. I've ruled that Knights can extend this privilege to 30 men/women serving under them. All free of charge, of course (i.e. bypassing the Royal Charter requirements) I haven't decided about the other rungs of the noble ladder just yet, but I'm thinking that simple baronets would be entitled to 10, hereditary baronets to 15, Highknights would be entitled to 60, barons, baronesses, and Knights Royal to 90, earls, countesses to 150, marchions/marchionesses to 240, dukes/duchess to 360. This roleplaying aspect can in my opinion compensate for "feats lost if the PDK would have taken fighter instead." Of course, that's assuming that I'm not going to allow noble PCs unless they themselves become nobles on the battlefield by earning a knighthood (giving them access to the PDK PrC). In most adventures, and this becomes especially true at high levels, the players WILL get bored if they start feeling that their actions have no impact on their surroundings. Awarding them with knighthoods and other responsibilities is a good way to make them realize that they can't go about solving the problems of the world without a minority asking for their rulership and protection... I've got two documents I can put online on a website if you want to know more about the Purple Dragons and Nobles of Cormyr. PDK
Palmate 06-25-03, 05:07 PM	I'm very interested in the data you have gathered on Cormyr and the Nobles there-in. As well as information on the Knighthoods. Thanks, Palmate
Purple Dragon Knight 06-25-03, 06:36 PM	Originally posted by Palmate I'm very interested in the data you have gathered on Cormyr and the Nobles there-in. As well as information on the Knighthoods. Here's what I have on nobles: http://www3.telus.net/rebirth/nobles_v1_1.doc Here's what I have on the Purple Dragons: http://www3.telus.net/rebirth/purple_dragon_v1_1.doc Hope this is useful to you! PDK :fight!: :king: :fight!:
Palmate 06-26-03, 09:20 AM	Thanks this will be very good for the campaign I'm currently running. Palmate
Silvertongue 06-29-03, 01:54 PM	Originally posted by ElGrecoETAC The Dark Knights could be an order of temple knights who are sent (individually or in small groups) to be a "helping hand" to nobles allied with or friendly to the teachings of Bane. I'd limit them to LN and LE, give them a signature weapon (like you said, a two-hander), and identifiable armour. Then I'd write 'em up a history, and ta-da. You have a PrC that could be in any part of the realms without being a "faceless" stratum of warriors who happen to develop supernaturally fierce/intimidating demeanors. This is indeed a good idea were I intending to make a regularly used class out of it but it was really for a one off character who we were attempting to make stand out in a high powered group. The point in this whole exercise is to establish that if you don't like the Prc classes available then you should attempt to make your own, it's not hard and can be really fun. HOWEVER I am, at heart, ultimately evil and I must admit that the idea of the Banite Knights really appeals to me! I must make some tweaks but the Dark Knight stands alone as he ever shall, in my campaign. :smirk: :D