Post/Author/DateTime	Post
johnis 01-30-06, 07:05 AM	When exactly did the Dawn Cataclysm happen? What happened then exactly? What secret plans does Lathander have since then against evil gods? All these are based on information in Faiths and Avatars in the "Lathander - History" part. I need detailsss...
Gray Richardson 01-30-06, 08:47 AM	The Dawn Cataclysm is a godly event that happened outside of time, in mythological time, so it cannot be effectively dated within any mortal chronology of the realms. Prior to the fall of Netheril there were several distinct human pantheons based in different geographic regions around Faerūn. After the fall of Netheril and Jhaamdath, populations shifted. People spread out, populations mixed, and their gods came into conflict. The Dawn Cataclysm represents the shake out that happened as the people of Faerūn merged into a greater Faerūnian culture and their gods merged together into a unified Faerūnian pantheon. The myths say that the Dawn Cataclysm was some kind of war. It was nominally started by Lathander who wanted to bring order to the pantheon in favor of goodness with himself as ruler of the gods. His lover at the time was Tyche, who so disapproved of the whole mess, that she kissed Lathander with misfortune and left him to his war. Likely though this was not the only reason that Lathander's plans failed. There are many contradictory sources of dates for the Dawn Cataclysm. Secrets of the Magister places the DC before the founding of the office of the Magister, so that would suggest a start date sometime before 136 DR. However, the Forgotten Realms Conspectus puts it at 161 DR, although this is likely inaccurate. There is other circumstantial evidence to place the DC in the decades preceding the Fall of Myth Drannor in 714 DR. Eric Boyd has suggested that since it all happened outside of time, in mythological time, that the Dawn Cataclysm can never be accurately dated with respect to mortal time except to say it happened sometime between -100 DR to 800 DR, over about a 900 year span. WotC intends never to resolve the mystery and therefore that seems as good an answer as any. Faiths and Pantheons, however, indicates that Lathander has a new scheme in the works: Lathander's Deliverence. Which may indicate another Dawn Catalysm style mythological event is imminent.
Old Sage 01-30-06, 08:49 AM	Faiths & Avatars, Faiths & Pantheons, the FRCS 3e (pg. 264)... You're never going to find a complete history of the Dawn Cataclysm, nor it's total effects. The most we have are bits and pieces scattered throughout the Realmslore. This is mostly due to the fact that writers at TSR/WotC haven't really attached much weight to the event. What we know -- Tyche split into Tymora and Beshaba during the Dawn Cataclysm. This is mentioned in a couple of places... So the Dawn Cataclysm must have happened in 8th Century DR -- from 700 to 799 DR, somewhere in there... Interestingly, it's also said that the Dawn Cataclysm presaged the Fall of Myth Drannor. The attacks on the City of Song started in 712, and ended in 714. So that puts the Dawn Cataclysm at the early part of that century. However, there are references to Tyche AFTER the fall of Myth Drannor (Seven Sisters, p.7), other references link the ascension of Azuth with the Dawn Cataclysm, and Ed himself in a few posts here and there has made it clear that some aspects of the church of Tyche continued to think of themselves in that light even after the split into Tymora and Beshaba. I think it's far simpler to leave the Dawn Cataclysm in its own godly event category and not try to give it meaning in a temporal sense. Considering it was a conflict between the gods, it may have happened millenia ago as mortals reckon time - its effects taking a very long time to filter through. Similarly, Eric Boyd has postulated that the Dawn Cataclysm occurred "out of time" in the sense that it could have happened at any point in the mortal timeline, but because of its 'otherworldy'-nature, it happened in the mortal realms at a time that doesn't correspond with our concept of how time works. In other words, godly events can't be dated by mortal means - unless such godly events have a mortal interface (i.e. the Time of Troubles).
Kuje31 01-30-06, 12:14 PM	Everyone forgets about poor Murdane, the goddess of Pragmatism and Reason that died during this. :( She was also Helm's lover.
Old Sage 01-30-06, 01:09 PM	Everyone forgets about poor Murdane, the goddess of Pragmatism and Reason that died during this. :( She was also Helm's lover.Aye... Sources for Murdane include F&A and F&P.
Iakhovas 01-31-06, 07:46 PM	Ok, if the actual Dawn Cataclysm cannot be dated then give us the dates that mortals became aware of the changes. For instance, when did clerics of Tyche start singing the praises of Tymora and Beshaba? When did clerics of Murdane stop receiving spells? The Dawn Cataclysm clearly did have an impact on mortal clerics and worshipers, so labeling it a godly event "out-of-time" is a bit disingenuous.
Krash 01-31-06, 08:59 PM	It's not quite that simple Brian. Faerūn has a long, long tradition of deities usurping the worshippers of others as well as worshippers of the various deities not wanting to believe their deity is dead/gone/changed etc. There are references in realmslore to priests of Tyche in the 700s DR, after the fall of Myth Drannor. After the death of Bane, Myrkul and Bhaal, countless priests and worshippers continued praying to said deities and receiving spells - of course, the spells were provided by other deities "on the make" for new worshippers or who were seeking to steal or establish dominion over portfolios. Such occurences would have definitely occurred with Murdane. Why, she was still being worshipped (here and there) in Impiltur well into the 300s DR ... :) As such, you'll get no hard and fast dates through this type of reasoning. -- George Krashos
Gray Richardson 02-01-06, 12:52 AM	I agree with George. And with the Servant of the Fallen feat, you can even continue to worship dead gods long after they have died. So no reason that churches of Tyche would know that Tyche had died or at least split into Tymora and Beshaba. It's also likely Tymora and Beshaba would also still continue to answer prayers in Tyche's name as an alias for many, many years following Tyche's mitosis. So you wouldn't even really have to take a feat to continue to receive spells. (not that the characters of that world think in rules terms of "taking a feat" to get spells.) Either way, there would be no objective way for a mortal to pinpoint when it was exactly that Tyche died.
Lord Zeb 02-01-06, 08:07 AM	Everyone forgets about poor Murdane, the goddess of Pragmatism and Reason that died during this. :( She was also Helm's lover. Hmm, sounds like a good candidate for one of the 7 Lost Gods, or whatever they are called....
Iakhovas 02-01-06, 07:44 PM	ok, ok I concede your points. But I'm a timeline freak. So give me the darn date already! :P
Krash 02-01-06, 10:45 PM	ok, ok I concede your points. But I'm a timeline freak. So give me the darn date already! :P From one timeline freak to another: I hear ya! :) Problem is that with so many conflicting sources on the DC, no-one will ever be satisfied with a 'set in stone' date for the event. And I have to confess, that it was originally mooted that it would be more 'set' in the timeline with the FRCS, but a few of us thought that this wasn't such a good idea. The focus on that history section shifted and the DC was mentioned but that's all. C'est la Realms. :D -- George Krashos
Gray Richardson 02-03-06, 01:14 AM	ok, ok I concede your points. But I'm a timeline freak. So give me the darn date already! :PSome relevant dates to consider: It had to happen after the fall of Netheril, so it could not have happened before -339 DR. It is said to herald the Fall of Myth Drannor, so that puts 714 as the latest date. It probably happened after the fall of Jhaamdath, (the mixing of cultures and pantheons that occured with the Chondathan Diaspora seems to be a major impetus for the Dawn Cataclysm) so that would be after -255 DR. Deneir is said to have been around before the Dawn Cataclsym, and his church was founded in 25 DR. Azuth is present when Selūne zapped Tyche with a silver bolt, cleaving her in twain. He was elevated to godhood around 136 DR. From the story itself we know Lathander was involved. According to Eric Boyd, and various sourcebooks, Lathander is either Amauanator reincarnated, or they are both incarnations of a greater sun god entity or principle. Anyway, Lathander (in theory) could not have incarnated until after Amaunator died. Amaunator is said in Faiths & Avatars to have finally died about a millenium after the fall of Netheril. So that would be approximately 661 DR (plus or minus 50 years?) Okay, so that might place the Dawn Catclysm somewhere in the later half of the 7th century or beginning of the 8th century DR. One might surmise that the events of the Dawn Cataclysm coincided in part with the events and campaigns that concluded in the Fall of Myth Drannor (as above, so below...) starting around 708 DR and wrapping up in 714 or maybe in 720 with the Gathering of the Gods at the Dancing Place. However, there are contradictory dates in the lore. For instance, Secrets of the Magister states that Mystra instituted the office of the Magister following the Dawn Cataclysm: "This book sets forth what it is to be the Magister, from the creation of the office after the Dawn Cataclysm by Mystra, wherein Azuth (the same Azuth who later rose to godhood) became the first Magister." While this might be considered canon evidence that the Dawn Cataclysm must have happened sometime before 136 (the year when Azuth finished his tenure as Magister, ascended to godhood and the 2nd magister was inaugurated). I would argue that it doesn't make sense that Azuth would have been present for Tyche's split before he was raised to godhood, and so I would think that Azuth must have already ascended to godhood by the time of the DC. So how to explain the Secrets of the Magister quote? I submit that Mystra established the office of the Magister proactively in response to the DC that she foresaw through an act of divination either using the Pale Tesseract or in her capacity as goddess of all magic including the school of divination... or maybe even on the advice of Savras. Alternatively, in her capacity as guardian of Time, Mystra could have gone back in time after the Dawn Cataclysm (perhaps centuries) to establish the office of the Magister in an earlier era to guard against damage to the Weave or other ill fallout from the DC centuries in the future. Another conflicting piece of lore is that Lathander was worshipped in Athalantar in the 2nd century DR. So if Eric's Sun God theory is true, then how could Lathander have been around before Amaunator died? Well, the Lathander of Athalantar could have been Amaunator himself, worshipped in his Talfiric name and aspect. Then perhaps when he died and was reborn, the new incarnation took up the name of Lathander. Or alternatively the death of Amaunator could have occurred at different times in different places. This goes back to Eric's idea of "mythological time" with any notion of simultaneity or an objective date getting thrown out the window. It fits metaphorically with the idea of the sun being high in one part of the world while being low or even set in a different part of the world a few time zones away. Amaunator could have "died" in the Heartlands in the early years of Dale Reckoning, while belief in him was waning but still holding on for a few centuries in places settled by Netherese survivors. But if that is true it makes for a much larger window for the DC, putting the start date potentially as far back as the founding of Athalantar in 183 DR or even earlier. I guess you can't even rule out the seemingly apocryphal date of 161 DR given in the Forgotten Realms Conspectus, an obscure TSR publication from 1995 (more of a promotional/advertising pamphlet) which is the only time the DC has ever been given an official date. Although most people consider the Conspectus date suspect or just flat wrong. Which puts us back where we started. There is just not enough information to date the DC, and much of what we have been told is conflicting. Athough it is still kind of fun to try and figure it all out. ;)
DreamStalker 02-03-06, 04:36 AM	Personally I have always thought of the Dawn Cataclysm as a series of events that happened over centuries. Fighting among the now mixing pantheons would have begun slowly at first then truly became hectic as the new multicultural Faerun became solid. If a large part of the DC was the change in societies and who they worshipped then the earliest fighting would have been small as competing gods battled over portfolios into more widespread disparity with some gods attempting to dance the whole situation to their tune. Pesonally, I enjoy dates as well but such far reaching and beyond mortal perceptions based events such as this really do not need exact dates so much as an era to place them in.