Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RatoncitoGris 07-09-03, 12:42 PM	It is increasingly clear than the Wizards hate the Forgotten Realms. Lately, we have seen out poor, beloved world a dragonflight, the Time of Troubles, the elven retreat, the Horde, shauahim attacks on the Sword Coast, orc hodes in the North, the destruction of Cormyr, the dissapearance of Tilverton, a civil war in Tethyr, an ogre army in Amm, the conquest of Maztica, the dissapearance of Tilverton, the attack on Elvereska, the harper schism and a loong et cetera. And don't think the baddies have had it easy, no; The loss of the Citadel of Many Arrows, the destrucion of hellgate keep, the death/resurrection/death/resurrection of the main evil gods, the destrucion of Zenthil Keep and the Zenthish civil war, the Manshoom wars... well, you get the idea. And not only that, but every other day here in the very boards for Forgotten Realms Lovers, it gets even worse. No a day passes without a new post of "I have destroyed Silevrymoon!" , "Let's kill the Chosen" or "an Orc Horde in Waterdeep". The only thing left is to finally unleash Dendar the Night Serpent and end the world. I say than we must face it, we love the realms too much for letting that torture continue. Let's put the poor thing out of its misery once and for all, and move shop to Greyhawk or something. We can stop out new plots to destroy Bel Astra, killthe Circle of Eight on send an orc army against Greyhawk once a year to lit candles or something...
ENHenry 07-09-03, 12:50 PM	In the last century, our own world has been subject to: The Spanish-American War The Russo-Japanese War The Great War (World War I) World War II The Korean War The Vietnam Conflict/War The Falklands War Two Wars in the Persian gulf Israeli/Palestinian conflicts Destruction of the World Trade Center and a few other million minor conflicts I know I'm missing. It's just an example of Art (the home of The Art?) imitating Life.
texaskron 07-09-03, 01:15 PM	Its easier to destroy than to build... The Realms are crowded and huge and if you want to make them your own you have to move things around. Also, metaplot also sells books, ignites discussion and whatnot, every gaming or novel company/writer in the world will throw in conflict and change not many people want to read about stability and stagnation. "I'm running a Forgotten Realms game but in my Realms, so and so's keep is being attacked by faction X...." "Ooh, that is so interesting, I'd like to play an elfX/classY/classZ/prcA in that." And if you are into the Realms you'll know exactly what they are talking about and can enter into the discussion with your own uses of the variables. Destruction is the instant plot hook. Now, the Incursion, thing that Dragon and Dungeon and Polyhedron did and used in the latest post aboot Silverymoon, is simple and fun for the fact that it is all about conflict and interior decorating. Don't like Mithral Hall and Drizzt? Nuke 'em, etc. I myself might use it on a homebrew world. OR maybe I'll twist it so that its an Angel Incursion. Lots of 1/2 Celestrial Dwarven Ranger/Elf Hunters and Aasimar Paladins riding Silver Dragons enforcing Law and Justice onto Evermeet. The fact is berk, knocking off a few notables and kicking sandcastles every few years is the least of your worries... at least you have a published and well-supported setting with accessories up the wazoo with kick-arse Prestige Classes and crunchy goodness and lots of flavory cream as well. The Realms beg to be mutilated since they are full of lots of interesting things almost iconic everything. Greyhawk isn't supported very much with published stuff, at least things that I have seen... maybe that's a good thing if you like things straight out of the box and static. These aren't rules we're really talking about here, its setting. The DM creates the setting for their world first and foremost and every game will be different. Rules have standards that are also changed and tweaked but probably not more than in settings.
Agent 23 07-09-03, 01:39 PM	I don’t quite know what you expected from a high fantasy, high power campaign setting populated with such polarized power groups and individuals (not to mention the amount of influence that divine powers have on Toril). All of the events you have listed are what make the Realms interesting. It shows that the Realms can be a living, breathing place where things are not as comfortably static as your typical network sitcom. And don’t forget the reason the Realms are “forgotten” is because of the great and mighty empires that fell and were lost centuries ago in cataclysms and levels of violence still unmatched in the Realms to the current day. Things have to be shaken up from time to time otherwise fighting to maintain the status quo would become routine and boring. So it sounds to me like you’re the only one in misery RatoncitoGris. I for one am enjoying the Realms in 3E, but I’m a fan of entropy. Finally, the only way that WotC will ever hate the Forgotten Realms is if it stops making them money. And believe me they’ll obliterate more than just Tilverton if that ever happens! PRAISE TALOS!!! http://superbabies.homestead.com/files/snstgs_38.gif http://smilies.crowd9.com/contrib/lynx/yelpirate.gif A23
Chahiero 07-09-03, 01:45 PM	What would you have us do? Sit on our hands and simulate our day-to-day lives in the FR buy shovelling horse dung? I'll take the hack 'n slash or intrigue route any day over more peaceful ways :D And remember what Elminster says: "I would cower at the thought of living in a Faerun where all the mighty and powerful folk agreed perfectly on everything. That;s the way of slavery and shackles and armed tyranny ... and if ye'd like to win a bet, wager that ye'll be near the bottom of any such order." But if you want a less frequent conflict, try bashing on the People of the Black Blood (I think that's the name) or the Twisted Rune - it's fun to turn powerful spellcasters into newts :rofl:
RatoncitoGris 07-09-03, 02:24 PM	~sighs~ That post was not mean to be taken _so_ seriously, guys. I'll have to stop triing irony in a foreign language, it never quite works :) But anyway I partly stand on what I posted. Yes, out century has seen a lot of things (but I should point than all those Realms events have happened in the last _13_ years, not over a century), and all this helps to make interesting adventures, but I am gettting more and more tired of wondering "let's see what cataclismic disaster is going to befell on my campaign" every time wizards publishes a new novel ot supplement (i do like to try and follow published canon whenever possible). As the novels of, say, Arilyn Moonblade or even (yes, HIM) Drittz Do'urden show, to have an interesting FR story you do not need to ressurect a dead a god this month, destroy cormyr the next one, then the next month destroy Tilverton just in case the Cormytes are getting bored, and then yet again the next month send a phaerim army to destroy Evereska, and yet a month later make Lolth dissapear (I am still waiting for Obauld Many-Arrows to attack Silverymoon in another month or two). All this HAS happened in the current FR year. Any one of those events makes a wonderful campaing, but not when they all come crashing at once. That only gives a sense of helplesness to the players "Congratulations, guys. You have protected that cormyte village agaist the last orc raids, but you probably won't be able to protect the next one. Evereska is under siege! Oh, by the way, you notice than Tilverton has dissapeared on your way wes, but it probably wasn't the zenths as they are in a civil war".
Druxus Rhym 07-09-03, 02:26 PM	That's what's supposed to happen you fool evil rises kills good good is reborn and rules again....a never ending cycle.:invasion: :fight!:
Amoun 07-09-03, 04:29 PM	And just remember... this is only WotC stuff... they can publish all they want but they do not control the forgotten realms for your group... you can choose to ignore information.. change it do as you please... Remember for the purposes of knowledge in the realms your DM is the all knowing powerful being... not the WotC... its a game.. if you dont like something dont include it :)
Sarelle 07-09-03, 06:22 PM	Hey, I don;t agree with what you said RatoncitoGris, but I got the humour of the thread. And it made me laugh. So kudos on your first post.
Gadodel 07-09-03, 07:43 PM	That is the beauty of destruction: it gives one a chance to create!!! Oh, gee how I am an amateur philosopher... :rolleyes:
bat141 07-09-03, 10:39 PM	My only problem is that everything has to be Realms wide and Realms shaking. The old Harper series was stories about single characters (sometimes sidekicks) who had basic tasks, adventures, etc. The whole fate of the cosmos did not hang on every action. Even the Stormweather books got to where everyones actions affected the future of Sembia or the battle between elves and humans. I would prefer some anthologies of short stories about everyday adventurers;) doing everyday adventuring things, not necessarily saving Faerun daily.
Thrask the Gnoll 07-09-03, 10:57 PM	There is no drama without conflict. :)
Astanphaeus 07-09-03, 11:56 PM	Originally posted by Chahiero What would you have us do? Sit on our hands and simulate our day-to-day lives in the FR buy shovelling horse dung? No, it doesn't look to me like anyone has said that. I think the point being made is that not everything has to be world-shattering and epic, and if you play that card too much, it becomes cheap. It loses its impact. Then you've put yourself in the position where, in order to keep everyone's interest, the next thing has to be even bigger and more cosmic than the last thing... and that way leads to absurdity. In a game I'm running right now, there's a subplot involving a young boy who's run away from an abusive father (who also happens to be a drunk). The heroes are currently harboring this boy, all the while wondering if it's really the right thing to do. To further complicate the matter, the boy's father is a Thayan merchant of Rashemi blood... a "second class" citizen from a Thayan perspective, but still not without some interesting resources and connections. The old man is also a bit of a sorcerer... and the boy is beginning to show signs that the bloodline is strong in him as well (he has Aftersight). Lots of moral complications here. The inclination is to villify the father, but is he really deserving of that? There have been indications that it isn't that simple a situation. There's potential conflict -- people hired to look for the boy -- and, obviously, there's drama. But no cities are burning down. There are no Gods dropping by for tea, or major setting characters exploding in a tsunami of gore. I use that sort of thing sparingly, so that it maintains the impact it's supposed to have. After all, if it doesn't have any impact and just comes off as humdrum, what's the point of doing it? It's probably also worth mentioning that the main story-arc of this campaign is about building a city. Therefore, it's driven by creation rather than destruction, and I have noticed that the shift in focus has made a difference in the feel of the game. The players (and subsequently the characters) seem to be more vested in what's going on. Intrigues have been political in nature, and often haven't had a definable "bad guy" involved... just good guys who are at odds with each other, because they have different points of view on how to go about doing things. This has resulted in some fun inter-personal dynamics -- rivalries and such -- that PCs can get more mileage out of, because they don't have to invariably lead to a death match showdown. I too would like to see more of this sort of thing -- more grounded stories -- set in the Realms. They don't even have to be small in scope. For example, I think Szass Tam's new Kill Them With Capitalism approach to dominating the Inner Sea is very down-to-earth (I had him doing that years ago) and full of all sorts of story potential, with nary an elder fiend in sight. All that aside, I don't think the FR backstory has gone completely overboard -- a lot of heavy things can happen in 10 - 20 years (note the late 18th century, for example) -- but it is coming close to that point, in my opinion. No matter, though. I can always scale it back if need be. There have been many games, for example, in which I just proceeded as if the Time of Troubles never happened. Anyway, I've probably gone on too long about this. The thread was started in a light-hearted tone, and I don't want to drag it down any further, so I'll leave it at that. ;) -- A.
Ranger REG 07-10-03, 05:01 AM	Originally posted by RatoncitoGris It is increasingly clear than the Wizards hate the Forgotten Realms. Half of what you're posting was BEFORE Wizards of the Coast acquired TSR. :rolleyes: As for the them you mentioned, I like some of them, I dislike some of them (which I can ignore in MY OWN FR game), and some are just plain acceptable (not embraced, but I let it slide). But to say that Wizards hate FR? You're gonna need more evidence. Besides, if they hated FR they should have replaced it with the contest-winning setting they held last year ... right about now ... and do something stupid like handing FR line to RPGA and cut their funding off again (like they did with Greyhawk). We should be lucky that FR is still around one more year. It's already 16 years old, more if you count the various Dragon magazine articles by Ed Greenwood prior to 1987.
Frodo Lives 07-10-03, 11:59 AM	I agree Astanphaeus, more cosmipolitan less cosmic feel to some stories and events happening in the Realms, I think that introducing new world shattering evils by the dozen lessens the effect when something BIG happens. I enjoy stories and adventures that have a more "local" feel to them. You don't have to change the world, just maybe your corner of it.:D
Amoun 07-10-03, 12:19 PM	For me, since my group plays evil and good characters I let em do what they want... But more often than not, it is much larger than saving a boy of a merchant (although I realize the levels of intrigue that might produce and am not insulting that in any way). What usually happens is that the old evil pcs get too powerful as they got their power legitametly heh, so I just involve those evil pcs in the next good campaign... and the characters try to vanquish their own mighty evil characters... So far its fun, and all that the pcs really do is minimize the unbalancing factors that their evil pcs might bring to the world, making it more... at ease and peaceful.. They also have a bunch of fun trying to undo the evil things they did... and are unhappy when I added a few extra tricks :angel: hehe, but the point I am trying to make... is just every group is different, they are free to do what they want, Wizards loves FR (Cause it brings money hehe) and everyone should do or do not what they wish... Its a game... having fun is the most important point of this game, just being entertained and being social. So as long as everyone is having fun who cares if the group destroys waterdeep or whatnot... Just have fun :)
Astanphaeus 07-10-03, 09:47 PM	Originally posted by Amoun But more often than not, it is much larger than saving a boy of a merchant (although I realize the levels of intrigue that might produce and am not insulting that in any way). Please keep in mind that I said that was a subplot... it's not the whole of my game. ;) The central plot -- the establishment of a city -- is much larger in scope... but it isn't World Shattering and Cosmic. The point behind bringing up the subplot was to demonstrate to the person I was responding to that a story doesn't have to have world-encompassing scope to have drama and conflict, and be entertaining and challenging for the players. In other words, it isn't just a choice between Battle of the Gods and shoveling out horse stalls. There's a huge gradient between those two roleplaying extemes. but the point I am trying to make... is just every group is different, they are free to do what they want, Wizards loves FR (Cause it brings money hehe) and everyone should do or do not what they wish... Its a game... having fun is the most important point of this game, just being entertained and being social. So as long as everyone is having fun who cares if the group destroys waterdeep or whatnot... Just have fun :) Well, I don't think anyone is getting upset about what individual groups do. The potential problem is when all of this stuff is "canon" and "official". In that sense, it's a concern, because if it's overdone, it can damage the setting's viability. It starts feeling like shlock, and that's a turn off for players. It can also be a turn off for DMs, because if you want to do something cosmic and epic, it kinda loses its edge when cosmic and epic is just another day for the setting. "The Gods are walking the Realms again? *Yawn* Oh well. What's for dinner?" Again, I don't think it's gotten quite that bad yet... but I do think the envelope of credibility is being pushed. WoTC might want to scale back on the huge stuff, and focus on some more grounded stories for awhile. -- A.
Cthulhu 07-10-03, 09:57 PM	Originally posted by Astanphaeus In other words, it isn't just a choice between Battle of the Gods and shoveling out horse stalls. There's a huge gradient between those two roleplaying extemes. Hercules was a demi-god who shoveled out stalls. See! There is common ground in the middle!
Xantriese 07-10-03, 11:37 PM	like others have said you can "do what ever you want" when running frcs,, i knew a guy that had wants a huge war to wipe out the realms " i.e. world war 1 realms style" but he never got to it, its a shame since it would had been funny, undead verus clerics......:nonono: i think he was drunk when saying it, but long as the realms has plenty of people using it wizards will make it, i like the realms more than greyhawk and dragonlance, greyhawk seems to be a bit dull for some reason. dunno why long live the realms:twitch:
Jeiroth 07-11-03, 05:35 PM	Lots of moral complications here. The inclination is to villify the father, but is he really deserving of that? There have been indications that it isn't that simple a situation. There's potential conflict -- people hired to look for the boy -- and, obviously, there's drama. Yeah umm, my Troll fighter has trouble with plots like that. He would probably eat the child for whining, then the fatherfor complaining. Then the party would have to scramble to "get out of town". But I know what you mean with the earth shattering events of FR occuring every week thing. Definately needs to chill a bit.
Astanphaeus 07-12-03, 03:49 PM	Originally posted by Jeiroth Yeah umm, my Troll fighter has trouble with plots like that. He would probably eat the child for whining, then the fatherfor complaining. Then the party would have to scramble to "get out of town". Well, if that's the way it went... it'd still be a story. ;) I certainly could've rolled with it. But, if I had a troll fighter in the group, chances are good this wouldn't have been a subplot in the game. ;) -- A.
Dungeon_Master 07-12-03, 04:28 PM	I just don't think Wizards has put their best foot forward into FR. I don't want to see it go, I'd just like to see Wizards put as much effort into it as they do Greyhawk. Wizards said "screw this" to quite a few good stories, such as Bhaal coming back (Baldur's Gate). Maybe thats good though, because now I can use it in MY campaign :D . To me, it seems lately Wizards has centered everything either around the gods and their chosen, or the drow. Some of us are sick to death of Drizzit, and Wizards basing what happens in the rulebooks on what the novel writers have made. Go ahead Wizards, tell R.A. Salvatore to elevate Drizzit and Cattie Brie to godhood! It's what you seem to be after! Let's see things less centered around the gods, but I'm not against kicking a few sandcastles. And if that sandcastle is named "Drizzit", I'm not complaining. "Oh, the novels say this, so your campaign isn't canon!" "Oh, sure the novels suck, but the BG game isn't canon! The novels are, no matter how bad they messed up the plot!" To me, it's like the novels are suddenly holy writ. Like I said, some of us would like to see Wizards quit following the novels and make the game seperate.
Anuminas 07-12-03, 04:43 PM	Originally posted by Dungeon_Master I just don't think Wizards has put their best foot forward into FR. I don't want to see it go, I'd just like to see Wizards put as much effort into it as they do Greyhawk. "Oh, the novels say this, so your campaign isn't canon!" "Oh, sure the novels suck, but the BG game isn't canon! The novels are, no matter how bad they messed up the plot!" To me, it's like the novels are suddenly holy writ. Like I said, some of us would like to see Wizards quit following the novels and make the game seperate. What effort into Greyhawk are you referring to?:confused: FR has had numerous products since 3e, Greyhawk has had none really, aside from the RPGA Living Stuff. Greyhawk is a neglected setting (until recently, the message board was conveniently hidden under Other Worlds). Wizards has no Greyhawk products slated for production, while FR does. If you are referring to Greyhawk being set as the default setting, that has frustrated more people than it has satisfied...especially Greyhawk fans. I see your frustration with the novels/canon/video game situation. That is why I don't like playing in FR all that much anymore. The whole canon issue is ridiculous. In the end, make your game whatever you want, ignore or include canon, and do whatever it takes for you and your players to enjoy the game and the setting. In essence, make it your own. I don't like having to rewrite canon setting stuff, subsequently...I don't play FR that much anymore.
Kuje31 07-12-03, 05:27 PM	Originally posted by Dungeon_Master I just don't think Wizards has put their best foot forward into FR. I don't want to see it go, I'd just like to see Wizards put as much effort into it as they do Greyhawk. Wizards said "screw this" to quite a few good stories, such as Bhaal coming back (Baldur's Gate). Maybe thats good though, because now I can use it in MY campaign :D . To me, it seems lately Wizards has centered everything either around the gods and their chosen, or the drow. Some of us are sick to death of Drizzit, and Wizards basing what happens in the rulebooks on what the novel writers have made. Go ahead Wizards, tell R.A. Salvatore to elevate Drizzit and Cattie Brie to godhood! It's what you seem to be after! Let's see things less centered around the gods, but I'm not against kicking a few sandcastles. And if that sandcastle is named "Drizzit", I'm not complaining. "Oh, the novels say this, so your campaign isn't canon!" "Oh, sure the novels suck, but the BG game isn't canon! The novels are, no matter how bad they messed up the plot!" To me, it's like the novels are suddenly holy writ. Like I said, some of us would like to see Wizards quit following the novels and make the game seperate. Not to get this arguement started again, but the very first official realms product was a novel. Except what was written up in Dragon of course. So of course FR is a novel driven world, it always has been since the novel, Darkwalker on Moonshae. Why should this change now? When it has always been so. And some of us actually like that the novels drive the world. For example, I have been rethinking my stance about the drow items now that Windwalker was published. Since it gives a explaination why all of a sudden drow items and magic no longer decay in sunlight. However, I agree, that it would be nice if novels and sourcebooks don't conflict with each other. But then again sourcebooks also conflict with each other all the time also.
Cthulhu 07-12-03, 07:29 PM	I'm kinda ambivalent about novels. Helpful and very, very harmful is about the only phrase I can think of to describe them (in the context of a game setting). The Helpful: Novels give me a first person account (fictional though it might be) of life in the Realms. Tidbits of dress, speech, and customs can go a long way to authenticate an encounter. New ideas are generated. Ideas I might pirate for my games. Books can give a game setting a much needed kick to move its canon material along and updated. The very, very Harmful: Forgotten Realms books are being used like a club to promote sales. Every book is treated like canon and updates are made. So instead of a fertile field for ideas, we have a treadmill that you have to run to keep up with the latest fad in the Realm. Unneccessary adjustments to the game setting itself. Novels move things along, but a game world has to be somewhat neutral, its components just a tad bit immune to faddish changes in those same novels. Its the baseline for which DMs construct there own worlds, so every arbitrary change to a settings NPCs, nations, organizations, religions, setting expectations, whatever moves it further from its most usable form, more difficult to work with. A game setting isn't a novel, its a toolkit for DMs. Sure some of these points contradict each other, but thats because its a balancing act between extremes, not an and-or situation. The best way to serve up a game world I find is White Wolfs approach to its Exalted setting, Creation. The setting is described in detail with the understanding that this is the baseline. No extrodinary changes are going to be made that might upset a Storytellers personal campaign. Instead each supplement or adventure is presented as a minicampaign in and of itself. You either use it or you do not, and if you don't it doesn't affect the core world in any significant way. The setting tries to maximize a Storytellers control over his own game without subjecting it to endless 'canon' changes that could ruin a campaign for game masters who feel uncomfortable deviating from the company canon. Theres even a string of novels presented for Creation. But thats all they are...novels. Use or don't at your whim.
Dungeon_Master 07-12-03, 08:40 PM	Well, I'm not irked because people say the PC games are canon... I'm irked because everyone says that they aren't, but the novels based on the games ARE. Let's face it folks, the Baldur's Gate novels sucked, as do most novelizations of PC games. The games kicked though. Maybe it's best that they aren't realms history: I can feel free to put Minsc and Jan in my game. :D
Kuje31 07-12-03, 09:16 PM	Originally posted by Dungeon_Master Well, I'm not irked because people say the PC games are canon... I'm irked because everyone says that they aren't, but the novels based on the games ARE. Let's face it folks, the Baldur's Gate novels sucked, as do most novelizations of PC games. The games kicked though. Maybe it's best that they aren't realms history: I can feel free to put Minsc and Jan in my game. :D I happened to like the BG novels. Shrug, one persons suckage is another person, hey these rule. For example I dislike Troy's work but other's love it. Shrug.
Dungeon_Master 07-13-03, 06:13 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 I happened to like the BG novels. Shrug, one persons suckage is another person, hey these rule. For example I dislike Troy's work but other's love it. Shrug. I don't mean to offend anyone, that's just my view of them. If someone else liked them, that's ok. I'm just giving my view of them. I wouldn't have disliked them so much if they had stuck with the game a bit more, and hadn't left so many characters/quests out. That, and I didn't like the hero calling himself "sell sword". Just felt wrong. I kinda think a nice module would suit the game better... On the novels in general, here's a scenario: It hasn't happened yet, but it could someday... Joe DM needs a good enemy for his latest adventure. He chooses the Zhents. He works on the adventure for a week, and when he gets it to the table, one of his player's, Bob the fighter says: "But hey! Drizzit killed the Zhent leaders in (insert book title here)! The orginization is gone now!" Now, lets think of how Joe DM feels. He wants to follow realms canon, but now he can't run his adventure because of a novel! Joe likes a good book, but this is rediculous! He tells people on the message boards, but everyone agrees with his player, because "the novels said so"! Now Joe is stuck with no adventure.
Jaromir 07-13-03, 09:43 PM	Originally posted by Dungeon_Master [B Joe DM needs a good enemy for his latest adventure. He chooses the Zhents. He works on the adventure for a week, and when he gets it to the table, one of his player's, Bob the fighter says: "But hey! Drizzit killed the Zhent leaders in (insert book title here)! The orginization is gone now!" Now, lets think of how Joe DM feels. He wants to follow realms canon, but now he can't run his adventure because of a novel! Joe likes a good book, but this is rediculous! He tells people on the message boards, but everyone agrees with his player, because "the novels said so"! Now Joe is stuck with no adventure. [/B] That, in a nutshell, is what is wrong with FR. Ultimately, the DM decides what is canon for his game. I always tell players if they don't like the way I run it, to quit whining and run a game themselves the way they want. The DM can still run his adventure, he could place the timeline back before Drizzt did any such thing, or he could override the novel's events, and say they never happened for his game.
Dungeon_Master 07-13-03, 09:51 PM	Or make Enteri a god.... "Drizzit watched as Cattie Brie died in his arms. She coughed blood. "Drizzit... My love, I.... Uhhhhhhhhhh......" She fell limp, her eyes closing, blood still trickling down her robes from the hole where her heart should be. Drizzit kissed her, one last time, tears wellinmg in his eyes, and turned to face the mist shrouded figure. "Now, drow, it's your turn...." A adolescent human apeared behind Enteri, holding several small cubes and a blue book. The boy smirked, and dissapeared." Then Lloth shows up, and her and Enteri kick each others, ummm... You know. Then the DM rolls moore dice, Helm shows up, which in turn causes Bane to come in.... No offense to Drizzit fans. I'd kind of like him if not for my intense hatred of the romance novels we've been force fed. Cadderly and Danecia were bad enough, ugh.
Ranger REG 07-13-03, 10:14 PM	Originally posted by Dungeon_Master I just don't think Wizards has put their best foot forward into FR. I don't want to see it go, I'd just like to see Wizards put as much effort into it as they do Greyhawk. I'm not going to get into the Greyhawk situation, but only to tell you that is a BAD example. Wizards said "screw this" to quite a few good stories, such as Bhaal coming back (Baldur's Gate). Maybe thats good though, because now I can use it in MY campaign :D . More powers to you, I don't know if the stories make any difference to any DM running their own FR game. Far be it from me or even Wizards to tell you how to run their game. To me, it seems lately Wizards has centered everything either around the gods and their chosen, or the drow. Some of us are sick to death of Drizzit, and Wizards basing what happens in the rulebooks on what the novel writers have made. Go ahead Wizards, tell R.A. Salvatore to elevate Drizzit and Cattie Brie to godhood! It's what you seem to be after! Are we talking about the game, or the novel series? Let's see things less centered around the gods, but I'm not against kicking a few sandcastles. And if that sandcastle is named "Drizzit", I'm not complaining. But I will complain, so who's more important: me or you? "Oh, the novels say this, so your campaign isn't canon!" "Oh, sure the novels suck, but the BG game isn't canon! The novels are, no matter how bad they messed up the plot!" I'll say this as gently as I can: WHO GIVES A DAMN! My FR is as non-canon to your FR campaign. AFAIC, yours is wrong and mine is right. Then again, from your POV, yours is right and mine is wrong. To me, it's like the novels are suddenly holy writ. Like I said, some of us would like to see Wizards quit following the novels and make the game seperate. Except there are more people out there that want novels to fit into the campaign storyline, as well as the characters. Initially, I would be against it, because early editions of AD&D cannot support such characters. I mean honestly, Drizzt became a 9th-level ranger after having spent most of his childhood trained as a house fighter and only begin his training with a blind ranger name Montoliio when he reached the surface, and that's five years before the start of Icewind Dale Trilogy. The novels are there to support the Realm, and not the other way around. You can accept the novel storyline as part of your own FR campaign storyline or completely ignore it, but for some novels it give us the fluff on the realms from a particular character's POV. The same applies when I watched Star Trek series (up until the first three seasons of Voyager). They give us some insight into that universe so that I can roleplay in it.
RatoncitoGris 07-14-03, 04:37 AM	Originally posted by Dungeon_Master Joe DM needs a good enemy for his latest adventure. He chooses the Zhents. He works on the adventure for a week, and when he gets it to the table, one of his player's, Bob the fighter says: "But hey! Drizzit killed the Zhent leaders in (insert book title here)! The orginization is gone now!" Now, lets think of how Joe DM feels. He wants to follow realms canon, but now he can't run his adventure because of a novel! Joe likes a good book, but this is rediculous! He tells people on the message boards, but everyone agrees with his player, because "the novels said so"! Now Joe is stuck with no adventure. Indeed, that sums up the problem. Not the fact than novels are canon themselves (which I usually like), but than the canon is WAY too often of that magnitude. The problem increases when the DM and the "problem player" in your tale are the same. I LIKE following canon in my games, unless my _P_L_A_Y_E_R_S_ (those geeky weirdos you find on the other side of the screen on the gaming afternoons, you know) are the ones doing the event. I intensely dislike having that force-fed. Until recently, I was preparing a new campaign in Tilverton. The PCs as resistance fighters against the cormitian invaders, as I liked the idea of a "good" enemy for once. But suddenly, Tilverton has dissapeared. That would be an anecdote, if not for the fact than exactly the same happened before with a campaign in Cormyr and another dealing with Xvin followers. I suppose I'd be grateful than I have not started a campaign in evereska, or wiht drow lolithes. "Ignore it, it is your campaign" This seems to be the catch.all answer for all those problems (well, truth is, it is the answer...) Indeed, I often do ignore canon when necessary. But it never fails to irritate me. Sum this up to the problems of continuity between 2nd and 3rd edition, not to mention the not-enough-disgraced cosmology, and it goes beyong irritation. Sure; I could ignore all that and make up my own things. And if I am forced to make up half the settign, then _why_ have I bought the books? Such a sucesion of problems is, at best, a lack of respect to the gamers.
Rogue Shadows 07-14-03, 11:35 AM	I'm willing to bet that Wizards has given so many conflicts to the Realms because they want to make life easier for DMs to come up with campaigns. Isn' t that nice of them? As for the 'romance' in Drizzt's books...keep in mind that Drizzt is more then two swords, a black panther, and an orc's bloody carcas. Drizzt can fall in love too, you know, just like you or me. I think Salvatore is actually doing good. Very good, actually. Because one day, Cattie-Brie is going to die, weather it be by sword, sickness, or time, and Drizzt will be by himself. It's great.
Dungeon_Master 07-14-03, 04:06 PM	Originally posted by Rogue Shadows I'm willing to bet that Wizards has given so many conflicts to the Realms because they want to make life easier for DMs to come up with campaigns. Isn' t that nice of them? As for the 'romance' in Drizzt's books...keep in mind that Drizzt is more then two swords, a black panther, and an orc's bloody carcas. Drizzt can fall in love too, you know, just like you or me. I think Salvatore is actually doing good. Very good, actually. Because one day, Cattie-Brie is going to die, weather it be by sword, sickness, or time, and Drizzt will be by himself. It's great. I agree. There's just to many pre set conflicts. I don't think we're to stupid or uncreative to come up with our own. Well, I'm not against romance in books (though I'd prefer a good fight), but it's been going for to long. Either have them break up or marry. PLEASE. I'd just like to see this move on to something else. That, and the road just isn't the best place to start a family. Raging lichlords and dragons tend to leave to many orphans and widows. I'm not against the novels, I'm simply against Wizards basing the campaign nearly completely on what happens in the novels. BTW, I used Drizzit in my "Joe DM story" as an icon. Meaning, it could be any FR main character. It could have been Elimister, or the Simbul.