level 10 spells? [Archive] - Wizards Community

level 10 spells? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jasbugg
05-15-06, 02:23 PM Ok, so can someone enhance my understanding of this? Mystra put a ban on level 10 spells. But we can still cast epic spells.. What I dont understand is what is the difference between a level 10, 11, 12 etc spell and an epic spell?
Myssa Rei
05-15-06, 02:48 PM There's a little section in Lost Empires of Faerun that explains the concept much more clearly that most of us board inhabitants could, so you might want to check it out.
lavekkia
05-16-06, 08:15 AM And also in Player's Guide To Faerun
The_Third_Karsus
05-16-06, 12:09 PM This is my understanding of it. 10, 11 and 12 level spells is the old way of doing it, and Epic spells are the present way of doing it.
Lord Karsus
05-16-06, 12:22 PM -Eh, not exactly. Epic spells and True 10+ Level spells existed at the same time. See the above mentioned resources for more information.
Voldar_Mecorthio
05-16-06, 09:17 PM In Mystryl's Weave, very powerful magic could be epic spells as they can today, or 10th+ level true spells. The Netherese prefered the 10th level version, but after Karsus's Folly, Mystra edited the Weave so powerful magic could only be developed in Epic Spell form.

If you want to use 10th level true spells, go back in time and stop Karsus from casting Karsus's Avatar. Of course, time travel is difficult :P and is probibly impossable.

Of course with a little DM editing to the storyline, an ancient race that predated the current multiverse who weilded near-limitless power could have built a temple capable of moving through time, and while Ao destroyed them, their temples remained and could be used if PCs could obtain the seven keys that were scattered...

I do that kind of thing a lot. Books are guidelines; ideas. I change just about all of them ;)
Renvale999
05-18-06, 08:45 AM There are certain other games that have some easily adapted spells that could be used as 10th, 11th and 12th lvl spells. Now please don't smite me Lord Karsus, but Everquest roleplaying games have some nifty spells at higher lvls that I think could count at 10th, 11th, 12th lvl spells. There is one that does 6D10 X10 cold damage, I think that could qualify, as well as one that gives 275 temp HP. Anyway please don't kill me everyone....I'm just trying to help.....please don't kill me :surrender
NightBreeze
05-18-06, 09:00 AM There are certain other games that have some easily adapted spells that could be used as 10th, 11th and 12th lvl spells. Now please don't smite me Lord Karsus, but Everquest roleplaying games have some nifty spells at higher lvls that I think could count at 10th, 11th, 12th lvl spells. There is one that does 6D10 X10 cold damage, I think that could qualify, as well as one that gives 275 temp HP. Anyway please don't kill me everyone....I'm just trying to help.....please don't kill me :surrender

I won't kill you.

Those may be equal to a maxed or empowered 9th level spell. Of course, aside form incantatrixes only epic character can cast them,

but there's a great difference between an empoered 9th level spell and a 11 levels spell.

If you read the true 10th and 11th level spells, you may notice that the power growth is simply amazing: for example if an 8th level spell is 15powwa and a 9th level spell is 17powwa, a 10th level is 30powwa and a 11 th level spell is 80powwa

powwa- International Measur Unit of a spell's power. :)
Lord Karsus
05-18-06, 09:02 AM There are certain other games that have some easily adapted spells that could be used as 10th, 11th and 12th lvl spells. Now please don't smite me Lord Karsus, but Everquest roleplaying games have some nifty spells at higher lvls that I think could count at 10th, 11th, 12th lvl spells. There is one that does 6D10 X10 cold damage, I think that could qualify, as well as one that gives 275 temp HP. Anyway please don't kill me everyone....I'm just trying to help.....please don't kill me :surrender

-Why would I smite you? My days of arbitrarily smiting people are over... ;)
Renvale999
05-19-06, 08:46 AM Wanted to make sure I didn't get smited back the the Shadowed Age of Netheril :D !!

Anyway, I honestly don't think there is a 9th lvl spell that that could possibly come close, even if it was intensified(epic lvl metamagic feat for those playing the home game)....even a
20D6 damage spell empowered and intensified only comes to 360 points of damage, 6D10x 10 maximized equals 600 points of damage......that's a whole lot more than 360 points.....anyway not looking for an arguement, just saying....I mean yeah you could raise the damage dice by taking enhance spell but you'd have to take it at least once...so now you've taken quite a few feats just to get the spell to 360..... Anyway I think people should just decide what a 10th, 11th and 12th lvl spell for them is.....right Lord Karsus?? ;)
Lord Karsus
05-19-06, 09:17 AM Wanted to make sure I didn't get smited back the the Shadowed Age of Netheril :D !!

Anyway, I honestly don't think there is a 9th lvl spell that that could possibly come close, even if it was intensified(epic lvl metamagic feat for those playing the home game)....even a
20D6 damage spell empowered and intensified only comes to 360 points of damage, 6D10x 10 maximized equals 600 points of damage......that's a whole lot more than 360 points.....anyway not looking for an arguement, just saying....I mean yeah you could raise the damage dice by taking enhance spell but you'd have to take it at least once...so now you've taken quite a few feats just to get the spell to 360..... Anyway I think people should just decide what a 10th, 11th and 12th lvl spell for them is.....right Lord Karsus?? ;)

-A 10+ level spell is exactly what it sounds- a 10+ level spell. Because a metamagically enhanced spell occupies spell slots designed for 10+ level spells, it can be thought of as a 10+ level spell. But, as you say, the metamagically enhanced spell is not going to be as powerful as a spell that was naturally 10+.
Karsus the Mad
05-19-06, 11:46 AM -A 10+ level spell is exactly what it sounds- a 10+ level spell. Because a metamagically enhanced spell occupies spell slots designed for 10+ level spells, it can be thought of as a 10+ level spell. But, as you say, the metamagically enhanced spell is not going to be as powerful as a spell that was naturally 10+.
Pretty much. A metamagicked spell occupying a 10th level slot is merely nothing but a metamagicked spell occupying a 10th level slot. A true 10th level spell is exponentially more powerful than a 9th level spell, and an 11th level spell is exponentially more powerful than a 10th level spell. Then you get into nutty 12th level magic that lacks any real basis for comparision other than "crappers...that can't be good..."
Lord Karsus
05-19-06, 12:42 PM Then you get into nutty 12th level magic that lacks any real basis for comparision other than "crappers...that can't be good..."

-Only if you are on the wrong side of it, of course!
Zsych
05-19-06, 05:53 PM Epic magic is different mechanically, though considered equal to 10th level magic(for spell level).

Learning epic magic isn't easy, and it's technically not supposed to be teachable, so you spend a lot of your resources getting it.

And basically, it's an out that let's you keep Mystra's ban, and still let players keep their games going at higher levels.

Epic magic uses seeds, and a whole bunch of mitigation factors usually.

Though personally i find mitigation factors like extending the time of the spell casting to reduce it's difficulty kinda strange... that should be true for any spell.

As an example... If you were using 9th level magic, and casting a spell that took a day to cast, it had better do something spectacular :)

Anyway, 10+ magic was darned powerful, and made epic magic seem like a joke, but then, if you had such magic in game, your 20+ level fighters would have to start finding some way to become demi-gods, or they wouldn't be a match for your wizards anymore :) .. not that they really are at high levels.

---

Technically 10+ magic does exist on the planes and in Athas(that's the Warcraft world i believe). Not sure how it compares exactly to Netherese 10+

... And there's the debateable issue of whether or not 10+ still exists on Toril through the Shadow-weave(since that never suffered the Sundering, Karsus Folly, or Mystra's ban)
urial angel of death
05-19-06, 08:25 PM are there rules to use 10+ level spells in 3.5? Please :bigeyes: :bigeyes: :bigeyes:
lavekkia
05-20-06, 07:11 AM are there rules to use 10+ level spells in 3.5? Please :bigeyes: :bigeyes: :bigeyes:

Officially no

It also depends what are you referring: a conversion for Netheril Empire Of Magic ? Nope
Old Netheril (pre mystryl death) arcanist class (NOT the LEoF PrC) ? check in Jaerom Darkwind Signature
An epic spellcasting system that uses lvl ? check at www.dicefreaks.com
Zsych
05-20-06, 08:31 AM I'm not sure that 3.5 actually stops 10+ spells.

But in general, at present(minus the doubtful situation with Shadow-magic), FR doesn't have 10+ spells, so you can't easily learn them(without a teacher or the ability to research them)... And then even if you somehow did, you wouldn't be able to use them on Toril.

Otherwise, you could probably use them, as normal, if you were off-plane, where Mystra's ban doesn't apply, and if you actually manage to find one.

... Personally though, i think that you should have to take a few extra feats to master 10+ magic(feats being a representation of abilities your character has gained), maybe a feat for 10+ mentalism, and another for 10+ variation .etc. with you only being able to take one of the 3 schools easily.

... and since i believe that a such feats should be gained in story(not just because you have gained a feat), gaining such knowledge would require a suitable quest.
(but you'd still be stuck without such magic on Toril... though if you become a Portal Master, you can use 13th level slots to cast 10th level spells though portals, and 14th level slots to cast 11th level spells :))

11th level magic becomes available at level 35. If you're at that level, most of the characters in FR won't be a match for you anyway.

Hmm... that means that Larloch can't even use 11th level magic, even if Mystra lets him. LOL.
GothicDan
05-20-06, 11:58 PM Unless you use Ed's version of Larloch.

And Athas was around for longer than Warcraft; it's the Dark Sun campaign setting.
Zsych
05-21-06, 03:18 AM Ah... Dark Sun.

I've only read the novels, and some stuff about how everyone is 8th level and above(which i found somewhat amusing).

But over all, it didn't seem like the kind of place you'd want to play in(Going by the novels at least).

... Felt a little too limited/dead.
NightBreeze
05-21-06, 08:59 AM Ah... Dark Sun.

I've only read the novels, and some stuff about how everyone is 8th level and above(which i found somewhat amusing).

But over all, it didn't seem like the kind of place you'd want to play in(Going by the novels at least).

... Felt a little too limited/dead.

Is that such an amazing place? Holy crap....
lavekkia
05-21-06, 01:59 PM yes it is :D go to www.athas.org (or into the specific WoTC board)
Lord Karsus
05-22-06, 08:53 AM -Waitasecond...Isn't Warcraft that online video game...You know, the one where stupid people have ruined their lives by locking themselves in their rooms and becomming recluses? They transformed that into a D&D setting?
NightBreeze
05-22-06, 09:26 AM -Waitasecond...Isn't Warcraft that online video game...You know, the one where stupid people have ruined their lives by locking themselves in their rooms and becomming recluses? They transformed that into a D&D setting?

Ummm...no.

It's a videogame, real time strategy. The game is really good and the setting is quite good too. Thay made a setting with D&D rules and a MMORPG ( World of Warcraft)
Lord Karsus
05-22-06, 09:31 AM Ummm...no.

It's a videogame, real time strategy. The game is really good and the setting is quite good too. Thay made a setting with D&D rules and a MMORPG ( World of Warcraft)

-That's all that I asked. Thanks.
Calmar
05-22-06, 11:38 AM If you want to use 10th level true spells, go back in time and stop Karsus from casting Karsus's Avatar. Of course, time travel is difficult :P and is probibly impossable.

Maybe time travel was a 11th grade spell... :P
lavekkia
05-22-06, 02:15 PM Actually is listed on the Portal Series Articles as a 9th lvl spell

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jasbugg 05-15-06, 02:23 PM	Ok, so can someone enhance my understanding of this? Mystra put a ban on level 10 spells. But we can still cast epic spells.. What I dont understand is what is the difference between a level 10, 11, 12 etc spell and an epic spell?
Myssa Rei 05-15-06, 02:48 PM	There's a little section in Lost Empires of Faerun that explains the concept much more clearly that most of us board inhabitants could, so you might want to check it out.
lavekkia 05-16-06, 08:15 AM	And also in Player's Guide To Faerun
The_Third_Karsus 05-16-06, 12:09 PM	This is my understanding of it. 10, 11 and 12 level spells is the old way of doing it, and Epic spells are the present way of doing it.
Lord Karsus 05-16-06, 12:22 PM	-Eh, not exactly. Epic spells and True 10+ Level spells existed at the same time. See the above mentioned resources for more information.
Voldar_Mecorthio 05-16-06, 09:17 PM	In Mystryl's Weave, very powerful magic could be epic spells as they can today, or 10th+ level true spells. The Netherese prefered the 10th level version, but after Karsus's Folly, Mystra edited the Weave so powerful magic could only be developed in Epic Spell form. If you want to use 10th level true spells, go back in time and stop Karsus from casting Karsus's Avatar. Of course, time travel is difficult :P and is probibly impossable. Of course with a little DM editing to the storyline, an ancient race that predated the current multiverse who weilded near-limitless power could have built a temple capable of moving through time, and while Ao destroyed them, their temples remained and could be used if PCs could obtain the seven keys that were scattered... I do that kind of thing a lot. Books are guidelines; ideas. I change just about all of them ;)
Renvale999 05-18-06, 08:45 AM	There are certain other games that have some easily adapted spells that could be used as 10th, 11th and 12th lvl spells. Now please don't smite me Lord Karsus, but Everquest roleplaying games have some nifty spells at higher lvls that I think could count at 10th, 11th, 12th lvl spells. There is one that does 6D10 X10 cold damage, I think that could qualify, as well as one that gives 275 temp HP. Anyway please don't kill me everyone....I'm just trying to help.....please don't kill me :surrender
NightBreeze 05-18-06, 09:00 AM	There are certain other games that have some easily adapted spells that could be used as 10th, 11th and 12th lvl spells. Now please don't smite me Lord Karsus, but Everquest roleplaying games have some nifty spells at higher lvls that I think could count at 10th, 11th, 12th lvl spells. There is one that does 6D10 X10 cold damage, I think that could qualify, as well as one that gives 275 temp HP. Anyway please don't kill me everyone....I'm just trying to help.....please don't kill me :surrender I won't kill you. Those may be equal to a maxed or empowered 9th level spell. Of course, aside form incantatrixes only epic character can cast them, but there's a great difference between an empoered 9th level spell and a 11 levels spell. If you read the true 10th and 11th level spells, you may notice that the power growth is simply amazing: for example if an 8th level spell is 15powwa and a 9th level spell is 17powwa, a 10th level is 30powwa and a 11 th level spell is 80powwa powwa- International Measur Unit of a spell's power. :)
Lord Karsus 05-18-06, 09:02 AM	There are certain other games that have some easily adapted spells that could be used as 10th, 11th and 12th lvl spells. Now please don't smite me Lord Karsus, but Everquest roleplaying games have some nifty spells at higher lvls that I think could count at 10th, 11th, 12th lvl spells. There is one that does 6D10 X10 cold damage, I think that could qualify, as well as one that gives 275 temp HP. Anyway please don't kill me everyone....I'm just trying to help.....please don't kill me :surrender -Why would I smite you? My days of arbitrarily smiting people are over... ;)
Renvale999 05-19-06, 08:46 AM	Wanted to make sure I didn't get smited back the the Shadowed Age of Netheril :D !! Anyway, I honestly don't think there is a 9th lvl spell that that could possibly come close, even if it was intensified(epic lvl metamagic feat for those playing the home game)....even a 20D6 damage spell empowered and intensified only comes to 360 points of damage, 6D10x 10 maximized equals 600 points of damage......that's a whole lot more than 360 points.....anyway not looking for an arguement, just saying....I mean yeah you could raise the damage dice by taking enhance spell but you'd have to take it at least once...so now you've taken quite a few feats just to get the spell to 360..... Anyway I think people should just decide what a 10th, 11th and 12th lvl spell for them is.....right Lord Karsus?? ;)
Lord Karsus 05-19-06, 09:17 AM	Wanted to make sure I didn't get smited back the the Shadowed Age of Netheril :D !! Anyway, I honestly don't think there is a 9th lvl spell that that could possibly come close, even if it was intensified(epic lvl metamagic feat for those playing the home game)....even a 20D6 damage spell empowered and intensified only comes to 360 points of damage, 6D10x 10 maximized equals 600 points of damage......that's a whole lot more than 360 points.....anyway not looking for an arguement, just saying....I mean yeah you could raise the damage dice by taking enhance spell but you'd have to take it at least once...so now you've taken quite a few feats just to get the spell to 360..... Anyway I think people should just decide what a 10th, 11th and 12th lvl spell for them is.....right Lord Karsus?? ;) -A 10+ level spell is exactly what it sounds- a 10+ level spell. Because a metamagically enhanced spell occupies spell slots designed for 10+ level spells, it can be thought of as a 10+ level spell. But, as you say, the metamagically enhanced spell is not going to be as powerful as a spell that was naturally 10+.
Karsus the Mad 05-19-06, 11:46 AM	-A 10+ level spell is exactly what it sounds- a 10+ level spell. Because a metamagically enhanced spell occupies spell slots designed for 10+ level spells, it can be thought of as a 10+ level spell. But, as you say, the metamagically enhanced spell is not going to be as powerful as a spell that was naturally 10+. Pretty much. A metamagicked spell occupying a 10th level slot is merely nothing but a metamagicked spell occupying a 10th level slot. A true 10th level spell is exponentially more powerful than a 9th level spell, and an 11th level spell is exponentially more powerful than a 10th level spell. Then you get into nutty 12th level magic that lacks any real basis for comparision other than "crappers...that can't be good..."
Lord Karsus 05-19-06, 12:42 PM	Then you get into nutty 12th level magic that lacks any real basis for comparision other than "crappers...that can't be good..." -Only if you are on the wrong side of it, of course!
Zsych 05-19-06, 05:53 PM	Epic magic is different mechanically, though considered equal to 10th level magic(for spell level). Learning epic magic isn't easy, and it's technically not supposed to be teachable, so you spend a lot of your resources getting it. And basically, it's an out that let's you keep Mystra's ban, and still let players keep their games going at higher levels. Epic magic uses seeds, and a whole bunch of mitigation factors usually. Though personally i find mitigation factors like extending the time of the spell casting to reduce it's difficulty kinda strange... that should be true for any spell. As an example... If you were using 9th level magic, and casting a spell that took a day to cast, it had better do something spectacular :) Anyway, 10+ magic was darned powerful, and made epic magic seem like a joke, but then, if you had such magic in game, your 20+ level fighters would have to start finding some way to become demi-gods, or they wouldn't be a match for your wizards anymore :) .. not that they really are at high levels. --- Technically 10+ magic does exist on the planes and in Athas(that's the Warcraft world i believe). Not sure how it compares exactly to Netherese 10+ ... And there's the debateable issue of whether or not 10+ still exists on Toril through the Shadow-weave(since that never suffered the Sundering, Karsus Folly, or Mystra's ban)
urial angel of death 05-19-06, 08:25 PM	are there rules to use 10+ level spells in 3.5? Please :bigeyes: :bigeyes: :bigeyes:
lavekkia 05-20-06, 07:11 AM	are there rules to use 10+ level spells in 3.5? Please :bigeyes: :bigeyes: :bigeyes: Officially no It also depends what are you referring: a conversion for Netheril Empire Of Magic ? Nope Old Netheril (pre mystryl death) arcanist class (NOT the LEoF PrC) ? check in Jaerom Darkwind Signature An epic spellcasting system that uses lvl ? check at www.dicefreaks.com
Zsych 05-20-06, 08:31 AM	I'm not sure that 3.5 actually stops 10+ spells. But in general, at present(minus the doubtful situation with Shadow-magic), FR doesn't have 10+ spells, so you can't easily learn them(without a teacher or the ability to research them)... And then even if you somehow did, you wouldn't be able to use them on Toril. Otherwise, you could probably use them, as normal, if you were off-plane, where Mystra's ban doesn't apply, and if you actually manage to find one. ... Personally though, i think that you should have to take a few extra feats to master 10+ magic(feats being a representation of abilities your character has gained), maybe a feat for 10+ mentalism, and another for 10+ variation .etc. with you only being able to take one of the 3 schools easily. ... and since i believe that a such feats should be gained in story(not just because you have gained a feat), gaining such knowledge would require a suitable quest. (but you'd still be stuck without such magic on Toril... though if you become a Portal Master, you can use 13th level slots to cast 10th level spells though portals, and 14th level slots to cast 11th level spells :)) 11th level magic becomes available at level 35. If you're at that level, most of the characters in FR won't be a match for you anyway. Hmm... that means that Larloch can't even use 11th level magic, even if Mystra lets him. LOL.
GothicDan 05-20-06, 11:58 PM	Unless you use Ed's version of Larloch. And Athas was around for longer than Warcraft; it's the Dark Sun campaign setting.
Zsych 05-21-06, 03:18 AM	Ah... Dark Sun. I've only read the novels, and some stuff about how everyone is 8th level and above(which i found somewhat amusing). But over all, it didn't seem like the kind of place you'd want to play in(Going by the novels at least). ... Felt a little too limited/dead.
NightBreeze 05-21-06, 08:59 AM	Ah... Dark Sun. I've only read the novels, and some stuff about how everyone is 8th level and above(which i found somewhat amusing). But over all, it didn't seem like the kind of place you'd want to play in(Going by the novels at least). ... Felt a little too limited/dead. Is that such an amazing place? Holy crap....
lavekkia 05-21-06, 01:59 PM	yes it is :D go to www.athas.org (or into the specific WoTC board)
Lord Karsus 05-22-06, 08:53 AM	-Waitasecond...Isn't Warcraft that online video game...You know, the one where stupid people have ruined their lives by locking themselves in their rooms and becomming recluses? They transformed that into a D&D setting?
NightBreeze 05-22-06, 09:26 AM	-Waitasecond...Isn't Warcraft that online video game...You know, the one where stupid people have ruined their lives by locking themselves in their rooms and becomming recluses? They transformed that into a D&D setting? Ummm...no. It's a videogame, real time strategy. The game is really good and the setting is quite good too. Thay made a setting with D&D rules and a MMORPG ( World of Warcraft)
Lord Karsus 05-22-06, 09:31 AM	Ummm...no. It's a videogame, real time strategy. The game is really good and the setting is quite good too. Thay made a setting with D&D rules and a MMORPG ( World of Warcraft) -That's all that I asked. Thanks.
Calmar 05-22-06, 11:38 AM	If you want to use 10th level true spells, go back in time and stop Karsus from casting Karsus's Avatar. Of course, time travel is difficult :P and is probibly impossable. Maybe time travel was a 11th grade spell... :P
lavekkia 05-22-06, 02:15 PM	Actually is listed on the Portal Series Articles as a 9th lvl spell