Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aluroon 07-25-04, 09:37 PM	Knowing my dm will run CotSQ soon, I decided to as for alittle help from those that know about the advanture, mostly just to ask if they think that the character I'm about to propose will have any chance at all of surviving the advanture. I know it starts at 10, then runs to 18ish, so.... Rogue6/Fighter1/ShadowDancer2/Assassin1 Followed by alternating levels of shadowdancer and assassin, as I think works best. So, does anyone think this character has a rats *** chance in the Abyss of surviving the advanture? Is there any advice you would give to a player about to start the adventure (Please dont spoil it, just general stuff) There are just a few other notable things, 1 being that the dm ruled elfs can fire bows twice a round. He also ruled only 1 sneak attack per round. Magic is more common-Items are 1/2 the cost, so I will probubly be well armed. He would mostly be a scout/Flanker kinda character. Thanks for all your help in advance Aluroon
Cold Napalm 07-25-04, 10:34 PM	It depends on your other party members...and EQ, but your character seems sounds. Good average HP and good damage out put...also since you can only sneak attack once per round maybe getting improved fient wouldn't be a bad idea...so you have a good damage out put, flank or no flank.
Sariel Rahab 07-26-04, 10:38 AM	You will have a rather weak fortitude save and an even weaker will save, so you should figure out a way to get around this. Fortitude, in particular, will be importaint...
warlockco 07-26-04, 10:58 AM	As nice as Death Attack and Poison Use are, they are pretty much useless for this adventure. Another thing is your Base Attack, Will and Fort saves will be weak. Also the Shadowdancer's abilities won't help much either. Might want to maybe consider Blackguard instead of Assassin. Since you will still get Poison Use, and on the upside you get Dark Blessing at 2nd level as a Blackguard which will help your Saves provided you have a decent Charisma. A better progression would be Rogue6/Fighter2/Blackguard2 since with that you can still do most of what you seem to be wanting to do, and you get a better Base Attack and Fort save. And all your saves will be better also if you have a good Charisma.
Mumm-Ra 07-26-04, 11:30 AM	You will find that sneak attack will be less effective than normal inn the adventure. Similarly for poison and death attack. I'm not sure what is best for the adventure, as it seems to be lethal whatever you play, but I suggest having kickass saving throws, especially fortitude and will. If you want to be a scout, be sure your move silently and hide are astronomical (im talking about 25+), or otherwise have quick escape route. Hide in plain sight with a good hide modifier would be good. Not sure how good a roguey type is in the adventure. A cleric would be the best option.
Aluroon 07-26-04, 12:38 PM	Well, First I want to say, thanks for the great answers and the speed of your replys! I'm going to assume, based of your comments as to fort/will, sneak attack, death attack, and poision, that this adventure involves alot of undead? Hum, if so I think I am going to want to make a new character. How does this sound to you all... Swashbuckler3/Fighter2/Wizard1/Bladesinger4 With all remaining levels of bladesinger, then problubly another fighter/wizard class That build has nice saves all around (well sort of), and doesnt focus on any one thing to deal damage. I really am looking for something that is simi optemized for the adventure, without knowing much about it. I would have posted this on the CO boards, however there response's to anything pretaining to FR have been less then extrodenary... Thanks in advance, I know that the new build is a big change, but I really do want your thoughts on it! Aluroon Note: Does anyone else see that the Swashbuckler is reather geared toward the bladesinger?
Mumm-Ra 07-27-04, 10:20 AM	As a fighter/wizard combo (gish), why not try the following: wizard 6/eldritch knight 3/spellsword 1 with the militia feat from PGTF. This allows the character to qualify for the eldritch knight prc without getting fighter levels. This gives you a BAB of +7 (not bad considering +10 is the max), spells as a 9th lvl wizard, and the ability to wear mithril chain with no arcane spell failure. It also gives him 6d4+3d6+1d8+(10xcon mod) hps, which is nto bad. I would give him a heavy fullblade to use (3d8). Fullblades are in sword and fist (and i think arms and equipment guide), while heavy weapons are in magic of faerun. That requires exotic weapon proficiency-heavy fullblade. With an 18 strength, and a +2 heavy fullblade you are looking at 3d8+8 damage (average 20.5 damage a hit). Of course, your lvl 9 wizard abilities will complement your combat abilities very well.
Cunning Linguist 07-27-04, 10:54 AM	Most of these characters appear to be made so that you should do the adventure by yourself? I take this is not the case. What classes are the rest of the party playing? A wizard 6/eldritch knight 3/spellsword 1 will be no good unless you also have a purebreed wizard in there. Since most of your spells will be for self-buffing. The combo will also be useless if you have 2 fighter types with you, since they will both be FAR better then you. Do you have the 4 basic classes there? For any adventure you need a cleric, a wizard, a fighter and a rogue. Trying to replace one of these classes with a class that does both things is going to fail. He would turn out like a bard, knows a little bit about everything, and does a whole lot of nothing.
Mumm-Ra 07-30-04, 07:21 AM	Well, a wiz 6/EK 3/spellsword 1 will only lose 1 caster level to a pure wizard, so he is hardly losing anything. As a fighter, I admit he is losing 3 points of BAB, which puts him on par with the rogue/clerics. But with displacement, stoneskin and mirror image he can take out any pure tank of his level. You definitely need a pure cleric though for sure. Pure fighter types will get charmed/dominated etc like nobody's business. You don't want very powerful fighters to turn against you! I'm sure one can build fighter types with good will saves though...
Sylvos 07-30-04, 09:14 AM	How about just making a level 10 character without multiclassing or adding a prestige class and see how that works out. A ranger with 10 levels has 3 favored enemies granting him some pretty nice damage bonus's on his hated foe. A cleric with 10 levels has some pretty good undead turning as well as divine healing ability. Try making a strong roleplaying concept for your character, stats and abilities only help so much when you add them in miniscule amounts. i.e. 1 level or rogue for sneak attack, 4 levels of fighter for your 3 bonus feats, etc.. The best character's we have had have had one core class and maybe a prestige class. We did the CoTSQ a while back, our party started with this composition: 1. Male Half-elf Ranger of Gwaeron 9/Master of the Yuirwood 2 2. Female Dark elf Cleric of Selune 10 3. Male Half-elf Rogue 11 4. Male Sun-elf Wizard 11 5. Female Moon-elf Bard 11 We ran through the entire story from start to finish, lost no one (almsot did a few times) had a very strong group and at the end we had the most rewarding experience we ended up gaining several levels. So that at the end we were as follows (if i remember correctly). 1. Male Half-elf Ranger of Gwaeron 11/Master of the Yuirwood 7 2. Female Dark-elf Cleric of Selune 17 3. Male Half-elf Rogue 18 4. Male Sun-elf Wizard 18 5. Female Moon-elf Bard 15/Dragonhymn Lyrist 3 6. Male Human Fighter 15 7. Female Human Druid of Silvanus 15 The last two joined us around level 13?-ish and leveled with us. I'm a fan of sticking to a core class and only multiclassing when its going to strongly influence the roleplaying aspect and fit into the character concept well. Adding classes for the sake of 1 ability will only hamper the character's full power in the end. But do what you like, we had a very successful campaign with these characters.
Aluroon 07-30-04, 06:28 PM	Mumm-Ra, just prior to coming here to check on these threads I was thinking about doing a combo just like that, although I must confess that I have not yet picked up the PGTF, and dont think I will. However, a few people in my group have it, so I guess I can look at the Millia feat. I guess they changed it from in the FRCS, so that it now aplies to all arms and armor, instead of just a few weapons? Thanks for that build. I really wasent sure as to how I was going to build it, and your build is wonderful. You saved me having to do a search for Gish Builds. I must ask, incase anyone else has nodiced this, why did wizards of the coast make the bladesinger so...weak? You have to take 4 rather annoying feats in excanged for full bab and 1/2 caster level, the abillity to quicken once per day, and a few other only have decent abillitys, when the EK has full bab and almost full caster progresion, in exchange for what most of us would have anyway in a gish build? Oh well, that wasent really on topic. I understand you point of view Sylvos, and you are right, this character is hardly going to be a stand alone, I am just looking to play something that doesnt get in anyones way, but is useful in its own way. I think the group already has a main rogue that almost certenly wont need to be checked on, due to the fact that the dm is letting him play some kind of immortal highlander kind of thing the dm has allowed him to do, and I know we will have a full progesion wizard (even though he's a drow, due to the dm heavily favoring him). We have a number of strong fighters (a Fire giant using Savage speices and a half ogre mellie kill everything type). As for clerics, I really hate playing clerics. I mean hate them, and I'm fairly sure well have one. So I'm just looking for something where I can do my own thing. I have wanted to play a fighting wizard (Yes if you wish, a Gish), so thats what I'm going to do. So, using Mumm-Ra's build, how do you think Said character would hold up, assuming I go EK the rest of the adventure? Aluroon
warlockco 07-30-04, 11:08 PM	EK strengths Full BAB, Good Fort, 9 level of spellcasting. Drawback d6 for hit points. Bladesinger strengths Full BAB, Good Reflex, Good Will, AC bonus when using a Longsword or Rapier only, Can take 10 on Concentration when casting Defensively, Quicken a spell for free, Ignore Arcane Spell Failure for ALL Light Armor, Extra Attack at -2 to all attacks, d8 for hit points. Drawback 5 level of spellcasting. As long as you don't mind the lower spellcasting ability, the Bladesinger is way better. Sure your Fort save is lower but good Reflex and Will is hard to pass up when you only get good Fort for the EK. And obtaining Combat Casting goes a long ways to geting Improved Combat Casting when you get epic (casting spells no longer draws attacks of opportunity); Weapon Focus is always good; Dodge is okay, not super great, but is the start for Mobility and Spring Attack, both of which are good; Combat Expertise is something I will admit I will almost never take unless I need it for something, just like Power Attack.
Cunning Linguist 07-31-04, 03:00 AM	Originally posted by Mumm-Ra Well, a wiz 6/EK 3/spellsword 1 will only lose 1 caster level to a pure wizard, so he is hardly losing anything. As a fighter, I admit he is losing 3 points of BAB, which puts him on par with the rogue/clerics. But with displacement, stoneskin and mirror image he can take out any pure tank of his level. You definitely need a pure cleric though for sure. Pure fighter types will get charmed/dominated etc like nobody's business. You don't want very powerful fighters to turn against you! I'm sure one can build fighter types with good will saves though... But the problem is that a wiz/fighter type is not going to memorize the right type of spells that a party needs. Backup spells, fireballs, sleep spells, they will be mostly buff so to make up for the lack of fighterskills. So instead of having a fighter that is pure, and gets backup from his wizard, you get a wizard who is trying to back up himself with his own spells. In a round by round base, you can only get of 1 spell, however, when you have 1 Figher and 1 wizard, the wizard can cast a spell AND the fighter can attack. Trying to mold them into one character makes it sub-par.
warlockco 07-31-04, 05:09 AM	As much as I hate to say it, because I don't care for the class much, a Sorcerer is the best combat caster out there. As long as they don't mind being focused in one direction. Just they take a hit if they want to use Metamagic though. But if you just want to make a nuker that uses nothing but spell focus and other general feats that enhance magic, a Sorcerer is the way to go.
Mumm-Ra 08-03-04, 07:30 AM	But CL, of course the fighter and the wizard can get an attack and a spell compared to the EK. There are 2 of them, and only one EK. A 20th lvl build would be: wiz 8/EK10/spellsword 1/dragonslayer 1. This gives you 19/20 caster levels (basically you keep your full wizardly powers) while getting your +16 BAB (important for those 4 attacks). So not only you are a full caster, your ranged touch attacks are all the much better, and your hitpoints are going to be better than a ful mage (8d4+10d6+1d10+1d8 compared to 20d4-average of 65 versus 50. The point of this build is not to try and do a fighter's job and buff yourself and fight (although you CAN do that), the point of this build is to be a full mage with much better attacks (especially those nice ray spells) and significantly better hitpoints compared to a full mage. The point of this build is to do all the things a full mage can do (with a tiny -1 caster level penalty) with better fighting capability just in case something happens to your fellows. Furthermore, being a spellsword, you can wear +5 mithril chain shirt at no arcane spell failure, or a +5 blended quartz (Arms and equipment guide) full plate at 5% arcane spell failure. Shrug. To me it seems so much better than a full mage.