Low-magic Forgotten Realms setting [Archive] - Wizards Community

Low-magic Forgotten Realms setting [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Canadian_Samurai
10-10-05, 06:57 PM Anyone ever tried to play a low-magic game in the Forgotten Realms setting?
Some advices? What magic items would you allow?

Thanks!
Draco Strang
10-10-05, 08:03 PM Well, the Forgotten Realms is very high-magic by nature. Everywhere you look, there's high-level wizards and wise old artifacts, coupled with sorcerous dragons and tons of scrolls and potions floating around.

That is, if you're playing in a fleshed-out region.

If you were going to run a low-magic campaign in the Realms, my suggestion would be to set it in a place that's already low-magic by nature. The jungles of Chult, Thesk, the Hordelands: all of these places lend themselves well to a low-magic game. If you try to do one in Waterdeep or Thay, then you just won't have the realms.

Good luck.
Otto the Bugbear
10-10-05, 09:09 PM Anyone ever tried to play a low-magic game in the Forgotten Realms setting?

Of course people have tried to and done it.

Some advices?

Sure. Just limit the amount of magic the same way you might with any other setting. Really, the world of forgotten realms isn't high magic. It's the NPCs that give it that feel. You know, where any halfling in a drunken stupor can accidently trip over a high level mage. Sure there are some magic items that lend itself to that feel, but they're mostly a result of all these stories published about the powerful NPCs.

It also depends upon how much you want to limit magic. The book Iron Heroes does a pretty good job of presenting a limited magic item setting. One option would be to adapt that to FR.

Another is to limit full casters to the bard progression; only gaining 6th level spells in 20 class levels.

Another is to limit all casters to very few schools of magic. Perhaps 3 schools full access, with the other 5 limited to 2nd or 3rd level spells. Or even 1 school full access with the others limited to lower level spells. (How about 1 school full access, 1 school 7th level max, 2 schools 5th level max, remaining schools 3rd level max, with a limit on caster level (spell level x2) for those reduced schools. That's pretty limiting.

What magic items would you allow?

This depends entirely upon how you decide the second question. With the Iron Heroes option, magic items are pretty limited in quatity and scope. With the lower spells option, that limits some of the magic items available right there. With the limited schools of magic option, that will reduce or eliminate many of the items that require spells from a multitude of schools.

Cheers

Otto :)
weasel fierce
10-11-05, 12:43 AM You can use the setting, while cutting down on the amount of magic you dish out. Assume that the PC spellcasters are exceptional, and that they wont meet many others.
quark12000
10-11-05, 12:50 AM Have you thought of playing in another setting? Kingdoms of Kalamar is pretty low-magic. Of course, if you already have most of the Forgotten Realms books, you won't want to get a bunch of new ones.
BladeMage_1
10-11-05, 08:03 PM I run the realms sorta low magic too. However, I'm a relativley novice DM so I'm not to excited about monitoring all the magic stuff yet. I'm trying to put more magic in my NEW campaign, starting with priests of Bane. The players get caught up in the clerics' rituals, and are now in the middle of a divine magic warfare.

In the past I usually rolled up fighters or other combat like classes, since they are easier to maintain.

Technically, I'm running a low magic cam. right now because
1) they are low level
2) I'm lazy most of the time
3) too much magic seems it would get hectic and complicated...
runestar
10-12-05, 12:38 AM Isn't that like switching to deacf? Sure, I could, but what would be the point?

Maybe Chessenta and them crazy Karanoks?
SCMrks
10-12-05, 05:11 PM My campaigns are low magic set in the Realms. My players enjoy it because it makes magic that they do find more meaningful to them. And our spellcasters are more meaningful because they can't be replaced by items as easily.
So somethings I do are:
Use NPC classes for most NPC's. This includes the Cloistered Cleric from Unearthed Arcana and the Urban Adept and Magewright from Eberron books.
I use more alchemical items to replace magic items. Some of the equipment guide books have expanded alchemical items.
I use herbs and medicines for nonmagical healing. I get most of these from an equipment book by Mongoose Publishing. I also use the Reserve Hit Point Pool option from Unearthed Arcana to make up for less magical healing options.
Instead of having clerics and wizards to cast spells to buff up my monsters like hobgoblins, bugbears, etc. I use the Knowledge, Military Training and Knowledge, Warfare from Kingdoms of Kalamar players handbook. And I have Marshals in the tribes instead of Shamans.
As not to deny the players their +1 weapons and armor and make them weak in a fight, I make masterwork weapons grant the +1 bonus.

I find that my players try to come up with strategies and tactics for battles and work as a team more so than in regular games because they can't get healed as easily and coming back from the dead is unheard of.
GothicDan
10-12-05, 07:11 PM In my world, I use the old 2E magic item creation rules, which means it was pretty much impossible to create magic items until the lower teen levels, and it was very rare that even archmages ended up making more than one or two potent magic items in their entire lives. The only Item Creation feats I allow are Brew Potion and Scribe Scroll.

This is a way to significantly lower the power level of magic in a campaign setting, and it's appropriate to the Realms, since that's the ruleset it operated under for so long.

But also, note that Ed Greenwood has made it very, very obvious that the Archmages of the Realms are Archmages. In his stories and the like, Archmages can pretty much toss around any other equivalently-leveled character of any other class.

So, I mean, don't nerf the overall power of spellcasters in FR across the board, because then it wouldn't be FR at all. Just control how much magic there is available to your PCs.
Zanan
10-13-05, 05:30 AM Advice? Well, get yourself a video or DVD of "The 13th Warrior" for a decent enough story. The only "practioners" there were a couple of shaman-like women on each side.

Given the fact that D&D in general tends to be a game of fighting, make sure that the characters have some sort of healing available, be it potions, ointments or some bard singing "double-the-rate-of-natural-healing" songs.
Canadian_Samurai
10-13-05, 10:50 AM Thanks guys for your interesting reply! Dont bash me for this! I was thinking about removing some spells in order to give magic a more subtle, more "natural" aspect. I want to limit spells level to the sixth level, to avoid too powerful spells. I'm thinking about limiting some spells in order to avoid overuse: can be used only once a day, once a week, once a month.

Flashy spells of mass destruction: Removed fireball, delayed blast fireball, meteor swarm and the like, since it doesn't really fit the setting a want to create.

Convenience spells: Removed create water, create food and water and some other convenience spells. Makes for a more interesting trek through a desert, for instance, when 1st-level characters can't simply conjure up water from thin air.

Life-restoring and healing magic: Removed raise dead and resurrection. Those who come back from the dead, come back as undead! Keep only cure minor wound and cure light wound.

Powerful divinations: Removed detect magic and comprehend languages. A first-level spell that allows you to understand all written languages? Not in this campaign!

This would be the spell list:

0 level : arcane mark, cure minor wound, dancing lights1, daze, detect magic, detect poison, ghost sound, light1, know direction, mending, read magic, resistance, sleep1, speak with animals, virtue.

1st level : cause fear, calm animals, charm animal, charm person1, command1, , cure light wounds1, detect undead, doom, endure elements, hypnotism, identify, pass without trace, sleep, speak with animals, ventriloquism.

2nd level : blindness/deafness, blur1, calm emotions, delay poison, detect toughts, enthrall, locate object, mirror image, scare, whispering wind.

3rd level : bestow curse1, clairvoyance/clairaudiance1, contagion1, purify food and drink1, dispel magic2, magic circle against chaos/law/evil/good, major image, rage1, remove blindness/deafness, suggestion1, speak with the dead, warp wood.

4th level : charm monster, crushing despair, discern lies1, divination2, fear, good hope, locate creature1, neutralize poison, remove curse.

5th level : animate dead, dream, false vision, feeblemind3, greater command1, mirage arcana, nightmare, sending.

6th level : animate objects, control weather3, eyebite, find the path3, greater scrying, legend lore, mass suggestion, mislead2, replusion1, polymorph self3+, Tenser’s transformation3, true seeing.

1 maximum once a day
2 maximum once a week
3 maximum once a month
+ only natural animals

I'm just trying things, I want to change the way magic is percieve in my campaign. I want a "Saruman speaking with crows" feel.
weasel fierce
10-13-05, 01:33 PM No reason why it couldnt work, as long as you tailor the adventure to fit.
Otto the Bugbear
10-13-05, 08:56 PM I agree with Weasel. Be very careful with your adventures and the monsters. Because of the removal of so many healing spells, players may be at a handicap for a little while. You don't want to do a TPK accidentally.

Cheers

Otto :)
GothicDan
10-13-05, 11:49 PM Personally, I do not at all sympathize with your desire to have a lower magic world. However, I'm rather confused as to why you're playing FR, though. Limiting magic through roleplay is one thing, but when you limit it entirely via mechanics, you are setting a standard across the entire world.

So, do the Chosen exist? Does Mystra? Does the Simbul exist?

Remember that the potential to use super power magic is part of what makes Faerun what it is. It may not be easy, or hard to find, but it's there. With limiting your spell list so drastically, you have to think of how it would affect the rest of the campaign setting.

Did Netheril ever rise or fall? How about the Imaskari? The Red Wizards? Halruaa? The Elven High Magi?

Maybe you should either think about using a different campaign setting (Dragonlance - or I would say your own, which I think is the best idea), or perhaps modifying the recent history of Faerun so that there's a REASON why magic is so weak compared to how it's always been? Perhaps some sort of a conflict between Shar and Mystra? Or any of the other myriad deities who have tried to get their hands into the Weave?

Maybe there was some great war and the Weave was destroyed, and it's a sort of low-magic, post-apocalyptic setting in which there's only a very basic, semi-functional replacement Weave (or something else) keeping magic going? Like working in Windows in Safe Mode?
weasel fierce
10-14-05, 12:28 AM So, do the Chosen exist? Does Mystra? Does the Simbul exist?

Do they need to ?
Zanan
10-14-05, 04:10 AM Coming to think of it, reducing the numbers of available spellcasting classes to druid, bard, and the adept and the witch of the DMG, you have a fair amount of spellcasters without that much "firepower" early on. If you ask the spellcasting players to restrict themselves from spell-hurling and allround buffing, it should work decently enough.
Canadian_Samurai
10-14-05, 10:27 AM Coming to think of it, reducing the numbers of available spellcasting classes to druid, bard, and the adept and the witch of the DMG, you have a fair amount of spellcasters without that much "firepower" early on. If you ask the spellcasting players to restrict themselves from spell-hurling and allround buffing, it should work decently enough.

Intresting point, it might work. Thanks!
WraithCaller
10-14-05, 12:33 PM Low magic FR setting? Well, you can knock off Elminster, Khelben, The Simbul, Alustriel, Sazz Tam, Manshoon, Ioulam, Larloch, and any other powerful spellcasters I haven't mentioned, since they'd probably all crumble into dust without their magics...

I don't honestly know how FR could survive with low magic, since it's practically BUILT on high magic...

The easiest thing to do would probably be to play a FR game, but use rules from a setting like Dragonlance or a similar low-magic setting... And not have any of the aforementioned NPC's appear...
GothicDan
10-14-05, 12:42 PM Do they need to ?

Well, without the Weave, Faerun basically gives in to entropy, and no spellcasters can cast spells who aren't related to the far more obscure forms of magic (pluma, Shadow Weave, etc.) And the Weave cannot manage itself, obviously, so that means that both Mystra and the Weave are needed.

And the Chosen are needed, otherwise Mystra would grow too powerful and overcome AO.

So, yes, they are needed for FR.
imrtl
10-14-05, 09:14 PM I guess low magic depends on how you define it.

Personally limiting magic by altering mechanics is never a good choice. IMO. And it will make players think your probably a weak DM that can't handle the group. If you want to limit what spells players can cast then put them in another plane of existence.

If you want to run a low magic you can easily do so reguardless of the setting.

1) limit the amount of magic items you hand out.
2) slow the characters progression.
3) make spells that should be rare or unique rare and unique. Do not just allow your players to select spells when they level, make them research or purchase them. That way you have some control over what spells they get.
4) if your not using material components. Using material components while spell casters will hate you for it, helps alot in both reduceing party treasure (giving them a reason to continue adventuring) and reduces abuse of more powerful magics, when it costs 1000 gold pieces or more to cast a spell, you can bet the player is going to make sure that spell is jusitified. Of course if you give out too much gold then material components probably wont matter that much.

In short, Your the DM, you decide how much magic the players will have and when/if they find any.

If they already have too much magic, setup an ambush, that they lose, and put them in a prison they have to figure out how to escape from, with no equip or magic. Then you can requip them with items you feel or more appropriate.
Otto the Bugbear
10-16-05, 08:33 AM Stuff

Wow. Sounds like somebody is putting the RAW (Realms as Written ;) ) on a pedestal. Not that it's a bad thing. To each his own.

But, implying that the removal of those high magics would automatically destroy his campaign is taking it a bit too far. I can certainly imagine a FR that survives without AO, Mystra, Elminster, Simbul, etc. I can also imagine one where even more magic exists. (Why are there dark alleys at all when spells like continual flame exist. Why does it take so long to craft stuff when a spell like fabricate exists. Why would anyone die of disease, poison, or wounds, when the appropriate curing spells exist. Just put those spells into items anyone can use for a quick idea on just how high 'high magic' can get.)

Canadian Samurai, what is it about higher magic that you dont' like? Is it the feel of high magic, or are just recognizing that you cannot handle/do not want to handle a high magic campaign?

Cheers

Otto :)
GothicDan
10-17-05, 10:57 AM Wow. Sounds like somebody is putting the RAW (Realms as Written ) on a pedestal. Not that it's a bad thing. To each his own.

If you mean the campaign/lore as written, then yes. Why should they NOT be put on a pedestal? They are what make a campaign setting what it is. If you mean the RAW mechanics, then no - I hate mechanics and know next to nothing about them in 3E.

But, implying that the removal of those high magics would automatically destroy his campaign is taking it a bit too far.

He has said it himself - that removing Mystra/the Weave would destroy Abeir-Toril.
gratzu
10-17-05, 07:10 PM Don't forget about the other classes. When you power down the spellcasting classes you are affecting the game balance. As written each of the classes has certain abilities that make them special and unique. WotC has worked really hard to balance the respective power level of each class (Whether they succeeded or not is an entirely different debate and not one that I want to get into right now. For now, let's just assume that they did succeed and get on with it.) That means that if you take away a lot of the flashy magic that makes a fighter able to muster a lot more power relative to a wizard of the same level. I just thought I needed to point that out. Why play a Wizard with puny spells and a d4 hit die when you can get all those bonus feats PLUS the d10 just by playing a fighter?

This is just an example; I am in no way insinuating that a wizard is inherently inferior to a fighter or any other class. I am simply trying to point out how that each class has its individual strengths and weaknesses. I think that taking away some of the most powerful features of the spellcasting classes without compensating for it the loss make them a lot less attractive for some people to play.

I hope that made sense, I have a tendency to ramble...
weasel fierce
10-17-05, 10:59 PM Making a setting lower magic, doesnt have to mean that magic users are made weaker, though there is no inherent problem in doing so.

If they are still viable, people will still play them, and if not, it becomes an NPC class. No worry
Link182
10-17-05, 11:33 PM I've always wanted to play in the Moonshae Isles for no other reason than it seems wild, untouched and there doesnt seem to be tons of magic flying around. If you're going to do low magic, do it there.
Otto the Bugbear
10-18-05, 07:11 AM He has said it himself - that removing Mystra/the Weave would destroy Abeir-Toril.

Having gone through the OP's posts, I can't find where he said that. I see where you did, but you aren't Canadian_Samurai. Unless you were refering to yourself in the 3rd person there. Anyway, like I said, to each his own. If you feel there's no way FR can be played low magic, then I anticipate it'll never happen in your game. So long as the DM and players for each game are happy, I won't judge it.

back to the OP...

I really like the druid, bard, witch, adept suggestion. Combine that with the 6th level spells maximum and you may have a playable, yet simple, fix. I do understand some of the spells you want removed, but a lot of that list would go away using the 4 classes mentioned above. Especially the flashy ones.

Looks like you're on the right track.

Cheers

Otto :)
Rauric
10-18-05, 05:22 PM I run the Realms in the usual way but I made Detect good and evil higher level spells. Plus I dropped it from a pallys abilities altogether. I gave them an ability I found in the Psionics book that allows them to detect Hostile Intent towards them and their party.

Run a game in Sembia with lots of intrigue and politics.Maybe have them hit the seas and fight pirates maybe.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Canadian_Samurai 10-10-05, 06:57 PM	Anyone ever tried to play a low-magic game in the Forgotten Realms setting? Some advices? What magic items would you allow? Thanks!
Draco Strang 10-10-05, 08:03 PM	Well, the Forgotten Realms is very high-magic by nature. Everywhere you look, there's high-level wizards and wise old artifacts, coupled with sorcerous dragons and tons of scrolls and potions floating around. That is, if you're playing in a fleshed-out region. If you were going to run a low-magic campaign in the Realms, my suggestion would be to set it in a place that's already low-magic by nature. The jungles of Chult, Thesk, the Hordelands: all of these places lend themselves well to a low-magic game. If you try to do one in Waterdeep or Thay, then you just won't have the realms. Good luck.
Otto the Bugbear 10-10-05, 09:09 PM	Anyone ever tried to play a low-magic game in the Forgotten Realms setting? Of course people have tried to and done it. Some advices? Sure. Just limit the amount of magic the same way you might with any other setting. Really, the world of forgotten realms isn't high magic. It's the NPCs that give it that feel. You know, where any halfling in a drunken stupor can accidently trip over a high level mage. Sure there are some magic items that lend itself to that feel, but they're mostly a result of all these stories published about the powerful NPCs. It also depends upon how much you want to limit magic. The book Iron Heroes does a pretty good job of presenting a limited magic item setting. One option would be to adapt that to FR. Another is to limit full casters to the bard progression; only gaining 6th level spells in 20 class levels. Another is to limit all casters to very few schools of magic. Perhaps 3 schools full access, with the other 5 limited to 2nd or 3rd level spells. Or even 1 school full access with the others limited to lower level spells. (How about 1 school full access, 1 school 7th level max, 2 schools 5th level max, remaining schools 3rd level max, with a limit on caster level (spell level x2) for those reduced schools. That's pretty limiting. What magic items would you allow? This depends entirely upon how you decide the second question. With the Iron Heroes option, magic items are pretty limited in quatity and scope. With the lower spells option, that limits some of the magic items available right there. With the limited schools of magic option, that will reduce or eliminate many of the items that require spells from a multitude of schools. Cheers Otto :)
weasel fierce 10-11-05, 12:43 AM	You can use the setting, while cutting down on the amount of magic you dish out. Assume that the PC spellcasters are exceptional, and that they wont meet many others.
quark12000 10-11-05, 12:50 AM	Have you thought of playing in another setting? Kingdoms of Kalamar is pretty low-magic. Of course, if you already have most of the Forgotten Realms books, you won't want to get a bunch of new ones.
BladeMage_1 10-11-05, 08:03 PM	I run the realms sorta low magic too. However, I'm a relativley novice DM so I'm not to excited about monitoring all the magic stuff yet. I'm trying to put more magic in my NEW campaign, starting with priests of Bane. The players get caught up in the clerics' rituals, and are now in the middle of a divine magic warfare. In the past I usually rolled up fighters or other combat like classes, since they are easier to maintain. Technically, I'm running a low magic cam. right now because 1) they are low level 2) I'm lazy most of the time 3) too much magic seems it would get hectic and complicated...
runestar 10-12-05, 12:38 AM	Isn't that like switching to deacf? Sure, I could, but what would be the point? Maybe Chessenta and them crazy Karanoks?
SCMrks 10-12-05, 05:11 PM	My campaigns are low magic set in the Realms. My players enjoy it because it makes magic that they do find more meaningful to them. And our spellcasters are more meaningful because they can't be replaced by items as easily. So somethings I do are: Use NPC classes for most NPC's. This includes the Cloistered Cleric from Unearthed Arcana and the Urban Adept and Magewright from Eberron books. I use more alchemical items to replace magic items. Some of the equipment guide books have expanded alchemical items. I use herbs and medicines for nonmagical healing. I get most of these from an equipment book by Mongoose Publishing. I also use the Reserve Hit Point Pool option from Unearthed Arcana to make up for less magical healing options. Instead of having clerics and wizards to cast spells to buff up my monsters like hobgoblins, bugbears, etc. I use the Knowledge, Military Training and Knowledge, Warfare from Kingdoms of Kalamar players handbook. And I have Marshals in the tribes instead of Shamans. As not to deny the players their +1 weapons and armor and make them weak in a fight, I make masterwork weapons grant the +1 bonus. I find that my players try to come up with strategies and tactics for battles and work as a team more so than in regular games because they can't get healed as easily and coming back from the dead is unheard of.
GothicDan 10-12-05, 07:11 PM	In my world, I use the old 2E magic item creation rules, which means it was pretty much impossible to create magic items until the lower teen levels, and it was very rare that even archmages ended up making more than one or two potent magic items in their entire lives. The only Item Creation feats I allow are Brew Potion and Scribe Scroll. This is a way to significantly lower the power level of magic in a campaign setting, and it's appropriate to the Realms, since that's the ruleset it operated under for so long. But also, note that Ed Greenwood has made it very, very obvious that the Archmages of the Realms are Archmages. In his stories and the like, Archmages can pretty much toss around any other equivalently-leveled character of any other class. So, I mean, don't nerf the overall power of spellcasters in FR across the board, because then it wouldn't be FR at all. Just control how much magic there is available to your PCs.
Zanan 10-13-05, 05:30 AM	Advice? Well, get yourself a video or DVD of "The 13th Warrior" for a decent enough story. The only "practioners" there were a couple of shaman-like women on each side. Given the fact that D&D in general tends to be a game of fighting, make sure that the characters have some sort of healing available, be it potions, ointments or some bard singing "double-the-rate-of-natural-healing" songs.
Canadian_Samurai 10-13-05, 10:50 AM	Thanks guys for your interesting reply! Dont bash me for this! I was thinking about removing some spells in order to give magic a more subtle, more "natural" aspect. I want to limit spells level to the sixth level, to avoid too powerful spells. I'm thinking about limiting some spells in order to avoid overuse: can be used only once a day, once a week, once a month. Flashy spells of mass destruction: Removed fireball, delayed blast fireball, meteor swarm and the like, since it doesn't really fit the setting a want to create. Convenience spells: Removed create water, create food and water and some other convenience spells. Makes for a more interesting trek through a desert, for instance, when 1st-level characters can't simply conjure up water from thin air. Life-restoring and healing magic: Removed raise dead and resurrection. Those who come back from the dead, come back as undead! Keep only cure minor wound and cure light wound. Powerful divinations: Removed detect magic and comprehend languages. A first-level spell that allows you to understand all written languages? Not in this campaign! This would be the spell list: 0 level : arcane mark, cure minor wound, dancing lights1, daze, detect magic, detect poison, ghost sound, light1, know direction, mending, read magic, resistance, sleep1, speak with animals, virtue. 1st level : cause fear, calm animals, charm animal, charm person1, command1, , cure light wounds1, detect undead, doom, endure elements, hypnotism, identify, pass without trace, sleep, speak with animals, ventriloquism. 2nd level : blindness/deafness, blur1, calm emotions, delay poison, detect toughts, enthrall, locate object, mirror image, scare, whispering wind. 3rd level : bestow curse1, clairvoyance/clairaudiance1, contagion1, purify food and drink1, dispel magic2, magic circle against chaos/law/evil/good, major image, rage1, remove blindness/deafness, suggestion1, speak with the dead, warp wood. 4th level : charm monster, crushing despair, discern lies1, divination2, fear, good hope, locate creature1, neutralize poison, remove curse. 5th level : animate dead, dream, false vision, feeblemind3, greater command1, mirage arcana, nightmare, sending. 6th level : animate objects, control weather3, eyebite, find the path3, greater scrying, legend lore, mass suggestion, mislead2, replusion1, polymorph self3+, Tenser’s transformation3, true seeing. 1 maximum once a day 2 maximum once a week 3 maximum once a month + only natural animals I'm just trying things, I want to change the way magic is percieve in my campaign. I want a "Saruman speaking with crows" feel.
weasel fierce 10-13-05, 01:33 PM	No reason why it couldnt work, as long as you tailor the adventure to fit.
Otto the Bugbear 10-13-05, 08:56 PM	I agree with Weasel. Be very careful with your adventures and the monsters. Because of the removal of so many healing spells, players may be at a handicap for a little while. You don't want to do a TPK accidentally. Cheers Otto :)
GothicDan 10-13-05, 11:49 PM	Personally, I do not at all sympathize with your desire to have a lower magic world. However, I'm rather confused as to why you're playing FR, though. Limiting magic through roleplay is one thing, but when you limit it entirely via mechanics, you are setting a standard across the entire world. So, do the Chosen exist? Does Mystra? Does the Simbul exist? Remember that the potential to use super power magic is part of what makes Faerun what it is. It may not be easy, or hard to find, but it's there. With limiting your spell list so drastically, you have to think of how it would affect the rest of the campaign setting. Did Netheril ever rise or fall? How about the Imaskari? The Red Wizards? Halruaa? The Elven High Magi? Maybe you should either think about using a different campaign setting (Dragonlance - or I would say your own, which I think is the best idea), or perhaps modifying the recent history of Faerun so that there's a REASON why magic is so weak compared to how it's always been? Perhaps some sort of a conflict between Shar and Mystra? Or any of the other myriad deities who have tried to get their hands into the Weave? Maybe there was some great war and the Weave was destroyed, and it's a sort of low-magic, post-apocalyptic setting in which there's only a very basic, semi-functional replacement Weave (or something else) keeping magic going? Like working in Windows in Safe Mode?
weasel fierce 10-14-05, 12:28 AM	So, do the Chosen exist? Does Mystra? Does the Simbul exist? Do they need to ?
Zanan 10-14-05, 04:10 AM	Coming to think of it, reducing the numbers of available spellcasting classes to druid, bard, and the adept and the witch of the DMG, you have a fair amount of spellcasters without that much "firepower" early on. If you ask the spellcasting players to restrict themselves from spell-hurling and allround buffing, it should work decently enough.
Canadian_Samurai 10-14-05, 10:27 AM	Coming to think of it, reducing the numbers of available spellcasting classes to druid, bard, and the adept and the witch of the DMG, you have a fair amount of spellcasters without that much "firepower" early on. If you ask the spellcasting players to restrict themselves from spell-hurling and allround buffing, it should work decently enough. Intresting point, it might work. Thanks!
WraithCaller 10-14-05, 12:33 PM	Low magic FR setting? Well, you can knock off Elminster, Khelben, The Simbul, Alustriel, Sazz Tam, Manshoon, Ioulam, Larloch, and any other powerful spellcasters I haven't mentioned, since they'd probably all crumble into dust without their magics... I don't honestly know how FR could survive with low magic, since it's practically BUILT on high magic... The easiest thing to do would probably be to play a FR game, but use rules from a setting like Dragonlance or a similar low-magic setting... And not have any of the aforementioned NPC's appear...
GothicDan 10-14-05, 12:42 PM	Do they need to ? Well, without the Weave, Faerun basically gives in to entropy, and no spellcasters can cast spells who aren't related to the far more obscure forms of magic (pluma, Shadow Weave, etc.) And the Weave cannot manage itself, obviously, so that means that both Mystra and the Weave are needed. And the Chosen are needed, otherwise Mystra would grow too powerful and overcome AO. So, yes, they are needed for FR.
imrtl 10-14-05, 09:14 PM	I guess low magic depends on how you define it. Personally limiting magic by altering mechanics is never a good choice. IMO. And it will make players think your probably a weak DM that can't handle the group. If you want to limit what spells players can cast then put them in another plane of existence. If you want to run a low magic you can easily do so reguardless of the setting. 1) limit the amount of magic items you hand out. 2) slow the characters progression. 3) make spells that should be rare or unique rare and unique. Do not just allow your players to select spells when they level, make them research or purchase them. That way you have some control over what spells they get. 4) if your not using material components. Using material components while spell casters will hate you for it, helps alot in both reduceing party treasure (giving them a reason to continue adventuring) and reduces abuse of more powerful magics, when it costs 1000 gold pieces or more to cast a spell, you can bet the player is going to make sure that spell is jusitified. Of course if you give out too much gold then material components probably wont matter that much. In short, Your the DM, you decide how much magic the players will have and when/if they find any. If they already have too much magic, setup an ambush, that they lose, and put them in a prison they have to figure out how to escape from, with no equip or magic. Then you can requip them with items you feel or more appropriate.
Otto the Bugbear 10-16-05, 08:33 AM	Stuff Wow. Sounds like somebody is putting the RAW (Realms as Written ;) ) on a pedestal. Not that it's a bad thing. To each his own. But, implying that the removal of those high magics would automatically destroy his campaign is taking it a bit too far. I can certainly imagine a FR that survives without AO, Mystra, Elminster, Simbul, etc. I can also imagine one where even more magic exists. (Why are there dark alleys at all when spells like continual flame exist. Why does it take so long to craft stuff when a spell like fabricate exists. Why would anyone die of disease, poison, or wounds, when the appropriate curing spells exist. Just put those spells into items anyone can use for a quick idea on just how high 'high magic' can get.) Canadian Samurai, what is it about higher magic that you dont' like? Is it the feel of high magic, or are just recognizing that you cannot handle/do not want to handle a high magic campaign? Cheers Otto :)
GothicDan 10-17-05, 10:57 AM	Wow. Sounds like somebody is putting the RAW (Realms as Written ) on a pedestal. Not that it's a bad thing. To each his own. If you mean the campaign/lore as written, then yes. Why should they NOT be put on a pedestal? They are what make a campaign setting what it is. If you mean the RAW mechanics, then no - I hate mechanics and know next to nothing about them in 3E. But, implying that the removal of those high magics would automatically destroy his campaign is taking it a bit too far. He has said it himself - that removing Mystra/the Weave would destroy Abeir-Toril.
gratzu 10-17-05, 07:10 PM	Don't forget about the other classes. When you power down the spellcasting classes you are affecting the game balance. As written each of the classes has certain abilities that make them special and unique. WotC has worked really hard to balance the respective power level of each class (Whether they succeeded or not is an entirely different debate and not one that I want to get into right now. For now, let's just assume that they did succeed and get on with it.) That means that if you take away a lot of the flashy magic that makes a fighter able to muster a lot more power relative to a wizard of the same level. I just thought I needed to point that out. Why play a Wizard with puny spells and a d4 hit die when you can get all those bonus feats PLUS the d10 just by playing a fighter? This is just an example; I am in no way insinuating that a wizard is inherently inferior to a fighter or any other class. I am simply trying to point out how that each class has its individual strengths and weaknesses. I think that taking away some of the most powerful features of the spellcasting classes without compensating for it the loss make them a lot less attractive for some people to play. I hope that made sense, I have a tendency to ramble...
weasel fierce 10-17-05, 10:59 PM	Making a setting lower magic, doesnt have to mean that magic users are made weaker, though there is no inherent problem in doing so. If they are still viable, people will still play them, and if not, it becomes an NPC class. No worry
Link182 10-17-05, 11:33 PM	I've always wanted to play in the Moonshae Isles for no other reason than it seems wild, untouched and there doesnt seem to be tons of magic flying around. If you're going to do low magic, do it there.
Otto the Bugbear 10-18-05, 07:11 AM	He has said it himself - that removing Mystra/the Weave would destroy Abeir-Toril. Having gone through the OP's posts, I can't find where he said that. I see where you did, but you aren't Canadian_Samurai. Unless you were refering to yourself in the 3rd person there. Anyway, like I said, to each his own. If you feel there's no way FR can be played low magic, then I anticipate it'll never happen in your game. So long as the DM and players for each game are happy, I won't judge it. back to the OP... I really like the druid, bard, witch, adept suggestion. Combine that with the 6th level spells maximum and you may have a playable, yet simple, fix. I do understand some of the spells you want removed, but a lot of that list would go away using the 4 classes mentioned above. Especially the flashy ones. Looks like you're on the right track. Cheers Otto :)
Rauric 10-18-05, 05:22 PM	I run the Realms in the usual way but I made Detect good and evil higher level spells. Plus I dropped it from a pallys abilities altogether. I gave them an ability I found in the Psionics book that allows them to detect Hostile Intent towards them and their party. Run a game in Sembia with lots of intrigue and politics.Maybe have them hit the seas and fight pirates maybe.