Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ClobberinTime 05-07-07, 12:55 PM	As near as I can tell the main difference between FR and Eberron isn't the superficial things like which Gods the Elves Worship or Warforged or anything like that. Its the Artificer class, the exp pool for the creation of magic items really changes the economy of the world. I.e. no one in FR makes magic items just for sale, and even though the red wizards do, it is completely unfeasible in the game mechanics, but once you give a class free expts to play with, it becomes, very usefull.
Fabius Maximus 05-07-07, 12:58 PM	No. If anything, it's the Magewright NPC class. Artificiers are too rare.
ClobberinTime 05-07-07, 01:14 PM	The magewright class doesn't explain the large numbers of magic items in Eberron, it only enhances the production of mundane goods. Am I wrong about this. The major difference is in the cheapness, and ready availability of magic items.
Renvale999 05-07-07, 01:17 PM	yeah, that whole Red Wizards making all those magic items is totally bogus, unless they're adventuring in their spare time, they wouldn't have the XP to do such things...totally crap.
Ramenth 05-07-07, 01:28 PM	The feeling of the setting is rather different too. Eberron is what the Forgotten Realms could turn into one day, I suppose.
The Ubbergeek 05-07-07, 03:34 PM	yeah, that whole Red Wizards making all those magic items is totally bogus, unless they're adventuring in their spare time, they wouldn't have the XP to do such things...totally crap. Among other things, they have magic sweatshops and enslaved/fooled mages of low grades for that....
ClobberinTime 05-07-07, 03:52 PM	Emslaved Artificers make the job easier, :)
CuttinCurt 05-07-07, 05:27 PM	Although I dont agree with the artificer/magewright classes being the biggest difference between FR and Eb, I will put in my two cents worth on this current debate. First off, the Thayan lesser mages serve a higher and more powerful malefactor, which dictates to them what they do and how they do it. Some are sent out to do things, like sell the items created by these lesser wizards, not to mention the espionage, uprisings, and other evil acts perpetrated by the red wizards across the lands of toril. All these missions gain xp, which they use when they return to make more stuff. Sure, they are minor items, ones that cost a mage less than 500xp to make. But they make the money for someone else, who then utilizes that money for his own grander plans, which, by the way, sometimes involves those that he mentors. A long story short, using thayan wizards as an example saying that this system is total crap is not entirely accurate. Only the strong survive in thay, the others die after they make many small items that have netted the big guy some serious cash. From a PC perspective, that is where it matters. It is here that I agree with the xp pool of the artificers having a huge advantage. But, the world of Eb is much different. Take the Flying Ships, elemental trains, and everburning lights in every city across Eberron. But that is because of the xp pool. If we think about it for a second, an everburning item costs what in creation? the cost of the item (lamp - 1gp max?) plus 50gp in ruby dust that is sprinkled on the item. Cost is 51gp to a wizard and the 1/25th of the selling cost, (everburning torch 110gp) so 5xp? I can think of some grand gestures that involve everburning lamps, like being given as a sign of goodwill to the community where a wizard wishes to make his residence. A wizard in a small town with an investment of 3-5 thousand gp and 150-250xp can make the whole town light up for ever, buy himself some brownie points, make him loved by the people, and so on and so forth. But that comes with the fact that magic is not so prevalant in that way as it is on Ebberon. Such a gesture in Ebberon would be hardly noticed. So in effect, I guess I agree that there is a difference in magic between the worlds, but that it is not the greatest difference. I believe the Greatest difference lies in the Dragons. But we can discuss that later after this part of the debate resolves. CC
Fabius Maximus 05-07-07, 05:29 PM	The magewright class doesn't explain the large numbers of magic items in Eberron, it only enhances the production of mundane goods. Am I wrong about this. The major difference is in the cheapness, and ready availability of magic items. Yes, well, it does. The Artificier is just a very talented Magewright, really. Magewrights are by and large responsible for the spread of the more 'mundane' magic items in Eberron. No one hinders a Magewright in taking item creation feats. I can imagine that most do, to be better in what they do.
Bloodtide_the_Red 05-07-07, 08:03 PM	I think everyone missed the BIG difference between Eberron and FR. Eberron has no powerful NPC's, not even gods. The PC's of the Eberron world are the HEROS, there is no one else to do the job. See some folks feel like the Realms have too many powerful folk. So many that normal folks(typical player characters) should have nothing to do. People like limited games. People like the idea that when a princess get captured, ONLY the PC's exist to go save her(even if they are 3rd level). Eberron lacks all theas NPC's.....the most powerful ones in the books are like 16th level. Eberron also lacks the super magic of FR. Eberron has lots of simple magic...but nothing comes close to a Myhtral. Even the books don't have all that many 6th-9th level spells. Compare to how many high level spells the Relams have(to be 'fair', just compare Magic of Ebberon and Magic of Fareun). The other big diffrence is Eberron uses the gray alignment. So you can't walk up to someone and detect thier alignment and find out if they are good or evil. By deafult, the Realms uses the Core alignment rules. BT
ClobberinTime 05-07-07, 08:21 PM	I think everyone missed the BIG difference between Eberron and FR. Eberron has no powerful NPC's, not even gods. The PC's of the Eberron world are the HEROS, there is no one else to do the job. See some folks feel like the Realms have too many powerful folk. So many that normal folks(typical player characters) should have nothing to do. People like limited games. People like the idea that when a princess get captured, ONLY the PC's exist to go save her(even if they are 3rd level). Eberron lacks all theas NPC's.....the most powerful ones in the books are like 16th level. Eberron also lacks the super magic of FR. Eberron has lots of simple magic...but nothing comes close to a Myhtral. Even the books don't have all that many 6th-9th level spells. Compare to how many high level spells the Relams have(to be 'fair', just compare Magic of Ebberon and Magic of Fareun). The other big diffrence is Eberron uses the gray alignment. So you can't walk up to someone and detect thier alignment and find out if they are good or evil. By deafult, the Realms uses the Core alignment rules. BT Honestly I find these to be extraneous, the difference is in how the peoples of the world approach magic. I'm starting to dig eberron mainly because it seems to me that if we humans here on earth actually got to use magic, that our world would be more like Eberron than FR. I'm just happy they did something sensible, you want to make magic prevalent, and then you explain how it can be done.
Alac Luin 05-07-07, 09:47 PM	The magewright class doesn't explain the large numbers of magic items in Eberron, it only enhances the production of mundane goods. Am I wrong about this. The magewrites do both. Use magic to make better mundane items and they produce magical items. (the magewrites are responsible for producing the magic street lights in Sharn) The major difference is in the cheapness, and ready availability of magic items. Which in Eberron follow the same rules as presented in the DMG as far as I know. This difference you are seeing is that in Eberron, the availability is more visible then in the Realms. This is due to the presence of the presence of "international corporations" known as Dragonmarked Houses, notably House Canith in this instance. EDIT: I should have said "international corporate monopolies"
THETUNNELRAT 05-07-07, 10:37 PM	Eberron---100 lbs of crap in a 5 lbs bag Forgotten realms in jest right . Thats the main difference. I have to say this ..has anyone seen a movie that is a little low on story ,so they dazzle you with special effects to distract you from the fact its all glitz and nothing else , well thats Eberron. :rant: :twitch: I had to get that of my chest LONG LIVE THE REALMS:bow: :w00t:
The Ubbergeek 05-07-07, 10:40 PM	I think everyone missed the BIG difference between Eberron and FR. Eberron has no powerful NPC's, not even gods. The PC's of the Eberron world are the HEROS, there is no one else to do the job. See some folks feel like the Realms have too many powerful folk. So many that normal folks(typical player characters) should have nothing to do. People like limited games. People like the idea that when a princess get captured, ONLY the PC's exist to go save her(even if they are 3rd level). Eberron lacks all theas NPC's.....the most powerful ones in the books are like 16th level. Eberron also lacks the super magic of FR. Eberron has lots of simple magic...but nothing comes close to a Myhtral. Even the books don't have all that many 6th-9th level spells. Compare to how many high level spells the Relams have(to be 'fair', just compare Magic of Ebberon and Magic of Fareun). The other big diffrence is Eberron uses the gray alignment. So you can't walk up to someone and detect thier alignment and find out if they are good or evil. By deafult, the Realms uses the Core alignment rules. BT Your points tend to falls in the stereotypes at first. In FR, the point of the game is as much as the heroes; do you think Elminster and other big bad dudes have time to waste with minor local issues like barbarian hordes? I exagerate, but the big names have bigger task than you - they won't scoop out and clean your mess. You do, you can be the hero at the end. And eberron can be as restrictive - the governements and organisations are quite hamfisted. Again, you forget to not that high levelers, and high magic in this case, are very rare and sprinkled around. Very, VERY few can do such things. And teh grey alignements thing make me feels go hum at times... it seems a post-modernist moral relativism thing. AND it's not new - FR have shades of grey a lot, and even GH.
MarkusTay63 05-08-07, 01:16 PM	Actualy, I find VERY little difference between the magic-tech; Netheril was at that level, as was Imaskar and probably at least Raumathar. Halrua could be dropped right into Eberron without batting an eye (probably along with Nimbral). In fact, Eberron isn't so much as a 'future version' of FR, but more like a 'been-there-done-that'. The big difference, IMHO, is the Dragonmarks. You have to be born with the ability to cast magic? It isn't so muched 'learned' as it is 'inherited'? And the fact that each 'Mark' leads to different abilities is somewhat limiting in a way. Dragonmarks seem, to me anyway, too much of a holdover from 'Birthright' (A setting which tanked, BTW). One of my favorite characters of all time in 2e was a thief/acrobat who was caught picking the pocket of a Halruan Mage. He wound up grabbing a wand by accident, and when the wizard turned on him he pointed the wand and fired a stream of magic missiles into the Wizard's face. The 'kid' didn't even know what he was doing, and the Mage was so amazed by his natural talent that he didn't even get mad; he instead took him in as an apprentice for the next eight years. That was my backstory, and it couldn't have ever happened in Eberron. Every Magic-User is 'branded' and there are no 'uncertainties' (for the most part). The 'kid' BTW was a dwarf... a human dwarf, not a member of that race... who had been taken in by a family of REAL Dwarves as part of their circus act. And that's how I got a Dwarven Mage in 2e. :D 3e took all the fun out of that character for me. :(
msatran 05-08-07, 01:31 PM	I'll be honest. The main difference between Eberron and the Forgotten Realms comes out of these things: Forgotten Realms obeys the rules of HIGH FANTASY LITERATURE. It is grand, sweeping, vast, and sometimes awe inspiring. However, what's equally awe inspiring is the detail paid to NPCS (Which unfortunately has fallen away in recent years in favor of some really poor novels.) Forgotten Realms obeys these rules: 1) Magic is everywhere, in everything. 2) Your heroes will eventually reach the same status as powerful NPCs, but are unlikely to surpass them. 3) The world is about the joy of participation in it. If you don't enjoy a game where these rules function, you should not play in FR games. Now, those same really poor novels are the source for Eberron. This doesn't make Eberron bad, it just makes it Pulp. Eberron is a pulp world, and Forgotten Realms is a high fantasy world. The problem is, that instead of writing high fantasy novels for the Realms with a little more thought and care, they write the same pulpy stuff that they do for Eberron. Eberron is a perfect world for novels, in a way that the Realms isn't if you want to play games in it. Eberron obeys these rules: 1) Enter the hero, who must take on a mission or thwart some sort of disaster. 2) This leads to...a fight, which produces a clue... 3) Grief is shovelled onto the hero. 4) This grief leads to....another fight.... 5) Which leads to some sort of clue, which leads to another clue, which shovels more grief onto the hero. 6) The hero battles his way through several more of these ever escalating challenges, until he meets...the villain, who laughs at the hero and runs off, preferably leaving the hero holding the bag. 7) The hero follows the villain to his base, taking two or three more similar steps along the way. 8) The hero confronts the villain in his lair, and a mighty battle ensues. 9) Does god (Or in this case, Action Points), kill the villain or the hero? Some of you may have seen this before, in a modified form, as Lester Dent's pulp formula. But it WORKS. It WORKS over and over again. I've been using it in my Realms for years, and it never, ever fails to sell, just like Dent said. :) The difference is that Eberron is BUILT for it.
ClobberinTime 05-08-07, 04:31 PM	Actualy, I find VERY little difference between the magic-tech; Netheril was at that level, as was Imaskar and probably at least Raumathar. Halrua could be dropped right into Eberron without batting an eye (probably along with Nimbral). In fact, Eberron isn't so much as a 'future version' of FR, but more like a 'been-there-done-that'. The big difference, IMHO, is the Dragonmarks. You have to be born with the ability to cast magic? It isn't so muched 'learned' as it is 'inherited'? And the fact that each 'Mark' leads to different abilities is somewhat limiting in a way. Dragonmarks seem, to me anyway, too much of a holdover from 'Birthright' (A setting which tanked, BTW). One of my favorite characters of all time in 2e was a thief/acrobat who was caught picking the pocket of a Halruan Mage. He wound up grabbing a wand by accident, and when the wizard turned on him he pointed the wand and fired a stream of magic missiles into the Wizard's face. The 'kid' didn't even know what he was doing, and the Mage was so amazed by his natural talent that he didn't even get mad; he instead took him in as an apprentice for the next eight years. That was my backstory, and it couldn't have ever happened in Eberron. Every Magic-User is 'branded' and there are no 'uncertainties' (for the most part). The 'kid' BTW was a dwarf... a human dwarf, not a member of that race... who had been taken in by a family of REAL Dwarves as part of their circus act. And that's how I got a Dwarven Mage in 2e. :D 3e took all the fun out of that character for me. :( Have you actually read the description of the Artificer class that is the subject of this topic? The difference you are missing is this: In FR there is no reason ever for any wizard to make any magic item except for his personal use because the amount of money you make versus the expts. you use is too high. In Eberron, It makes sense mechanically with the powers of the Artificer class that someone could make a living making magic items. The reasons for this are two fold: 1, they get a free pool of expts to make magic items as a class ability, and 2, they can siphon off expts already used in making a magic item and use them for making something else. I.e. technology x is now outdated, so I can siphon off the expts used to make it, and make y which isn't out of date.
Alac Luin 05-08-07, 05:07 PM	In Eberron, It makes sense mechanically with the powers of the Artificer class that someone could make a living making magic items. The reasons for this are two fold: 1, they get a free pool of expts to make magic items as a class ability, and 2, they can siphon off expts already used in making a magic item and use them for making something else. I.e. technology x is now outdated, so I can siphon off the expts used to make it, and make y which isn't out of date. I know this wasn't directed to me, but.... Craft Reserve- The numbers aren't really all that much. They look high, especially at higher levels, but they only allow something like 3 or 4 level appropriate magic items. If we assume 3rd level is the typical max level of the average Artificer that would lead to nine to maybe 20 "XP free" magic items over a lifetime for the majority of the Artificers. And most of these would be potions and scrolls that require a UMD check to use (many would consider these scrolls unreliable). This doesn't seem to be enough to upset an economy. Retain Essence- It is a 4th level class ability. How many Artificers reach this level? I'll admit, it is a very useful/potent class ability. The limiting factor is where would these "outdated" magic items come from? For a non-adventuring Artificer who sets up shop they would need to purchase the magic items. To get an extra 100 XP would need a 2500 GP market value magic item. This cost would make this ineffective for large scale implementation as a standard practice.
Faraer 05-08-07, 05:31 PM	I'm starting to dig eberron mainly because it seems to me that if we humans here on earth actually got to use magic, that our world would be more like Eberron than FR.How D&Dlike magic 'would' or 'should' work depends on much in the nature and assumptions of the setting that lies outside the rules; the Realms, World of Greyhawk (as described in Living Fantasy) and, I assume, Eberron all make coherent 'sense' on their own terms.And teh grey alignements thing make me feels go hum at times... it seems a post-modernist moral relativism thing. AND it's not new - FR have shades of grey a lot, and even GH.True on the second count, and I feel similarly about the first. Forgotten Realms obeys the rules of HIGH FANTASY LITERATURE. It is grand, sweeping, vast, and sometimes awe inspiring.Reading the Realms as pure high fantasy is a common mistake: it draws at least as much from sword and sorcery. In particular, it has little of high fantasy's elevated tone, epic questing, coming of age stories, secret noble heritage, ultimate evils, etc.Forgotten Realms obeys these rules: 1) Magic is everywhere, in everything.Big exaggeration.2) Your heroes will eventually reach the same status as powerful NPCs, but are unlikely to surpass them.I think this is incidental, not defining, and it has a corollary 2A, that friends acting together can achieve more than egotistical powerhouses can individually.3) The world is about the joy of participation in it.Yes, I think this joy at living is fundamental.Eberron is a pulp world, and Forgotten Realms is a high fantasy world.The Realms is greatly influenced by pulp writing, such as that of the Weird Tales 'big 3' -- just not so much by the adventure pulps and their derivatives.The problem is, that instead of writing high fantasy novels for the Realms with a little more thought and care, they write the same pulpy stuff that they do for Eberron.I wish Realms fiction would stay truer to classic adventure fiction, sources in the pulps, and work influenced by them such as Fritz Leiber, Lin Carter and Avram Davidson, and let up on the sub-Tolkien 'epic' stuff.In FR there is no reason ever for any wizard to make any magic item except for his personal use because the amount of money you make versus the expts. you use is too high.Well, of course there's no such thing as XP in the Realms, but this is true in terms of the time, effort, and life energy it (here) represents, except that the great crafters of magic make things for the love of art and beauty and craft, and to aid their communities now and in times to come, not just as a selfish boon.
Bloodtide_the_Red 05-08-07, 07:25 PM	I guess some might say my points tend to falls in the stereotypes. I do like Ebberon enough, I buy all the books and use the stuff in my FR game. I'll just point out that in the source books there are a LOT of high level Realms NPCs. And there are dozens of novels about high level Realms NPC's. It's easy for some people to fell left out. They feel there is nothing to do in the Realms as the others have it all covered. Ebberon has more of the feeling that there is on one else to save the day except the PC's. As I said, read through the books and there are very few high level NPCs. The gods are a big point too. FR has the 'human-like' gods with personalities and such. Some people don't like that kind of god. That is why Ebberon has the distant 'faceless/personality-less' gods. And Ebberon has the gray. You can't use spells like detect evil in Ebberon to find the bad guy(this is right out of the campagin book). While FR uses the standard Core D&D good and evil. This is a big point because, by-the-book, evil can't hide in the Realms. If a cleric of Cyric put on a disguise, he would still shine bright evil on the detect spell. Otherwise the places are about the same. BT
Alediran 05-08-07, 08:29 PM	If a cleric of Cyric put on a disguise, he would still shine bright evil on the detect spell. Otherwise the places are about the same. BT A Spell of Nondetection or Amulet Against Detection (don't remember the full name) and problem solved.
HxHunter 05-08-07, 08:58 PM	A Spell of Nondetection or Amulet Against Detection (don't remember the full name) and problem solved. Mantle of the Hidden Faith of Frostburn gets the job done.
Bolithio 05-08-07, 09:13 PM	Eberron is what the Forgotten Realms could turn into one day, I suppose. God, I hope not.
GothicDan 05-09-07, 12:30 AM	You know what I think the big difference is? Eberron was designed with 3.X's mechanics in mind the whole time, whereas the vast majority of the roots of the Realms were created before Ed ever played AD&D, and expanded upon in 1E and 2E. So while FR's internally consistent, it doesn't always make much sense when you look at things in retrospect, trying to take into account 3.X's mechanical vagaries (such as the XP and magic item issue; in previous editions, it didn't require XP to create magic items). This may seem like I'm just trying to brush off the difference. I'm not, at all. I think the above source of contention is sort of like the Big Bang of differences.
Bluenose 05-09-07, 06:34 AM	The big difference, IMHO, is the Dragonmarks. You have to be born with the ability to cast magic? It isn't so muched 'learned' as it is 'inherited'? And the fact that each 'Mark' leads to different abilities is somewhat limiting in a way. Dragonmarks seem, to me anyway, too much of a holdover from 'Birthright' (A setting which tanked, BTW). :confused: I'm not sure where you got this impression from, but it's completely wrong. There's absolutely no connection between the ability to perform magic and dragonmarks. Or rather, what a Dragonmark does is let you perform certain magic spells or activate a few very specific magic items regardless of your class. Wizards (or sorcerers, or any other caster class) don't need dragonmarks to be able to cast spells. One of my favorite characters of all time in 2e was a thief/acrobat who was caught picking the pocket of a Halruan Mage. He wound up grabbing a wand by accident, and when the wizard turned on him he pointed the wand and fired a stream of magic missiles into the Wizard's face. The 'kid' didn't even know what he was doing, and the Mage was so amazed by his natural talent that he didn't even get mad; he instead took him in as an apprentice for the next eight years. That was my backstory, and it couldn't have ever happened in Eberron. Every Magic-User is 'branded' and there are no 'uncertainties' (for the most part). 3e took all the fun out of that character for me. :( Why? The character started off as a Rogue, then went through a period of training to become a wizard. Perfectly practical for 3rd edtion. If it's the uniqueness of a dwarven wizard, then you'd be surprised how many DMs made exceptions of this sort.
GothicDan 05-09-07, 06:38 AM	I'm not sure where you got this impression from, but it's completely wrong. There's absolutely no connection between the ability to perform magic and dragonmarks. Or rather, what a Dragonmark does is let you perform certain magic spells or activate a few very specific magic items regardless of your class. Wizards (or sorcerers, or any other caster class) don't need dragonmarks to be able to cast spells. Uh. As far as I know, in Birthright, certain individuals' bloodlines were transformed from the energies released in some huge divine war. This endowed certain members of those bloodlines to perform thematically appropriate special abilities/spell-like abilities... Which sounds a lot like Dragonmarks.
Steelwind 05-09-07, 06:46 AM	I agree with many of the points that have been presented, NPC's, alignment, and general tone of the settings, all play a part in the distinct differences of the two. But I think that Dan has hit the nail on the head here, Forgotten Realms and Ebberon were created and developed in two different eras, hence the "classical" feel of the realms or the "new-agey" feel of eberron. Also is the fact Eberron was developed as a D&D setting and can cater to current mechanics of said game. And on another note, those were the days, not having to pay XP for item crafting. I remember I could'nt wait to hit 11th lvl in mage with my fighter/mage so I could start crafting. Which required a lot more imagination back then as you actually had to roleplay aspects of gathering materials and giving logical reasons as to why this item would work.
Bluenose 05-09-07, 06:46 AM	Uh. As far as I know, in Birthright, certain individuals' bloodlines were transformed from the energies released in some huge divine war. This endowed certain members of those bloodlines to perform thematically appropriate special abilities/spell-like abilities... Which sounds a lot like Dragonmarks. It also gave certain individuals the ability to form a mystical connection to a land, or to some organisation, that gave them certain special abilities. It was one of the prerequisites to become a ruler that you had to be Blooded. As I remember it was a very clunky system, with lots of different power levels and a strange selection of abilities. Howver, Birthright is rather extraneous to the point I was trying to make. The impression I got was that Markus thinks you need to have a dragonmark to be a spellcaster in Eberron, and I wanted to correct that. It isn't so.
GothicDan 05-09-07, 06:52 AM	So, while in Eberron the Dragonmarked don't *need* to form a bond with an organization, the fact that the Dragonmarked Houses have grown up around them and are sort of the economic power houses of the main continent, just makes both systems have more than a passing resemblance. If I remember correctly, the bloodlines of Birthright also had some power scheme along the lines of Lesser, Major, and Great, or the like, similar to the Dragonmarks. But, anyway, I see where you saw that it seems like Markus thinks you can't otherwise utilize magic if you have a 'Mark. Silly Markus.
Bluenose 05-09-07, 07:17 AM	So, while in Eberron the Dragonmarked don't *need* to form a bond with an organization, the fact that the Dragonmarked Houses have grown up around them and are sort of the economic power houses of the main continent, just makes both systems have more than a passing resemblance. If I remember correctly, the bloodlines of Birthright also had some power scheme along the lines of Lesser, Major, and Great, or the like, similar to the Dragonmarks. Well, one major difference was that in Birthright blooded individuals were actively in competition with other blooded individuals. In fact if you could kill someone else with a bloodline you'd inherit some of their power. But, anyway, I see where you saw that it seems like Markus thinks you can't otherwise utilize magic if you have a 'Mark. Silly Markus. Actually, now I'm confused :confused: I thought Markus believed you HAD to have a dragonmark to use magic, but it can also be taken your way. On the general theme of the thread, one major difference I see is that in FR magic is seen as an art, as The Art. In Eberron it's more like a craft, and the difference is findamental to the economic differences between the two settings.
Red_Wizard 05-09-07, 08:47 AM	I skimmed quickly, so forgive me if this is a repeat of something someone already pointed out. But I believe the DMG has rules for NPC's substituting gold for XP when creating items. Hence why Thay isn't filled with Level one wizards, so feeble it hurts to scratch themselves in between crafting. :P Also, with the more sources that arise every month, there are more and more options for a PC to take to reduce the cost of crafting items, from extra feats, to spells that drain demons essences. So ultimately, most people in the realms can achieve little to no XP cost, without taking a cross world PrC :).
Bolithio 05-09-07, 10:52 AM	In the spirit of this tired discussion: I hear what you all are saying [lol] but you are all wrong. The main difference is in FR there are no trains, robots, etc... Not to mention the higher quality of ART associated with FR. There. :hides:
Alac Luin 05-09-07, 10:54 AM	I hear what you all are saying [lol] but you are all wrong. The main difference is in FR there are no trains, robots, etc... Not to mention the higher quality of ART associated with FR. The fact the the Realms does have robots, while Eberron does not. :)
GothicDan 05-09-07, 10:49 PM	Not robots as we know them, which run on electricity.
MarkusTay63 05-09-07, 11:04 PM	Not robots as we know them, which run on electricity.Isn't a robot simply a mechanical device designed to perform some action? A robot with human form would be an android, but industrial robots don't even look remotely human. AFAIK Leonardo DaVinci designed the first robot. It is possible to have a steam-powered 'bot, which 'should' work given FR's tech limitations. A robot can also be self-aware or a simple automaton. It's power source can be just about anything. Therefore Halaster uses 'robots'. :P
Alac Luin 05-10-07, 12:09 AM	Not robots as we know them, which run on electricity. The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, 4th edition, published by Houghton Mifflin Company.... ro·bot (rō'bŏt', -bət) 1. A mechanical device that sometimes resembles a human and is capable of performing a variety of often complex human tasks on command or by being programmed in advance. 2. A machine or device that operates automatically or by remote control. 3. A person who works mechanically without original thought, especially one who responds automatically to the commands of others. Nothing here has a requirement for a robot to be run on electricity. We also must recognize that definition 3 is less of a definition of a robot and more of a derogatory term, this type of robot can be found in any world. If we focus on definition 1, we should realize "mechanical device" is described by "clockwork" in D&D terms. Which describes "Gondsmen" and a few other constructs in the Realms.
GothicDan 05-10-07, 12:16 AM	See, I would just call those automatons...
AllisterH 05-10-07, 06:57 AM	See, I would just call those automatons... But automatons are robots. Really, in effect, there's no difference between an automaton, a robot, a clockwork creation and a golem. Only difference is how they're powered/created.
Stigger 05-10-07, 07:18 AM	Ah, but you forget, this is Dan... Master of the Infuriatingly Semantical Arguement that you're talking to. :D
True_Atlantean 05-10-07, 07:34 AM	The feeling of the setting is rather different too. Eberron is what the Forgotten Realms could turn into one day, I suppose. I certainly hope I never see the day. It's not that I despise Eberron, it's just that I play FR because it feels different to other settings. I also play DL because it is different to FR. I wouldn't want DL to look like Forgotten Realms and vice versa. The integrity of all of the settings should be maintained. Whilst I'm sure that someone out there would be excited at the prospect of their Dragonmarked Moonblade-wielding Knight of Solamnia, that person is not me. I believe that this is something that the game designers do believe in and I've not seen the blurring happening just yet. The only gripe I have is the artwork. It is all starting to look the same (obviously because the same artists are being used across the campaigns). I'd prefer to see very distinct styles of art used for each campaign.
The WarOverlord 05-10-07, 07:38 AM	As near as I can tell the main difference between FR and Eberron isn't the superficial things like which Gods the Elves Worship or Warforged or anything like that. Its the Artificer class, the exp pool for the creation of magic items really changes the economy of the world. I.e. no one in FR makes magic items just for sale, and even though the red wizards do, it is completely unfeasible in the game mechanics, but once you give a class free expts to play with, it becomes, very usefull. Nah, There are no known gods impeding knowledge. magic, or technology on Eberron while Forgotten Realms is a ass backward in Magic and technology because of their interference limiting magic, tech,and knowledge which is why you can only get basic machines out of "Gond land" and gunpowder (let alone steam power OR nuclear power) won't even work within the dynamics of the Forgotten Realms unless Gond and/or Ohgma, Denier etc allows it (note this is a guess as I have never seen Ebberon Material, but FR material emphasizes that the gods pretty much spin every gear and wheel in FR cosmology) Artifister Eh? Old D&D had a Sub Class of Wizard that depended a lot on Created magic Items and even in the Computer S.S.I. D&D games I had my Magic Using PCs using magic Items over memorized spells out of the Artifist's habit of using wands and devices for offensive/defensive magic and memorized spells for enhancing magic...lol And yeah, a lot of "set in stone" game mechanics trying to limit spells and devices via making it very expensive in material reagents or experience do so for PCs and don't seem to Apply to Thaynians Traders or most NPCs....cause it is mostly about sucking all the fun out of playing a magic user for the ones that don't want to abuse their power by, oh, casting wall of Iron thin and long, using a force spell like a altered Bigsby hand to stamp swords out of the metal and poof....put a little bit of wrappings about the handles and we got a bunch of swords (That the Wizard can't use without proficiency)
Steelwind 05-10-07, 08:18 AM	Whilst I'm sure that someone out there would be excited at the prospect of their Dragonmarked Moonblade-wielding Knight of Solamnia, that person is not me. <shudders> :looloo:
OgreMonk 05-10-07, 09:32 AM	I love both. But as of late, I have been finding Eberron to be much more fun, both as a player and as a DM. Plus, most every group in my area (east end of Louisville, KY) has dropped FR in favor of Eberron. I think only one or two out of the twenty or so groups that I know of still play FR around here.
Alac Luin 05-10-07, 10:38 AM	See, I would just call those automatons... au·tom·a·ton (ō-tŏm'ə-tən, -tŏn') n., pl. -tons or -ta (-tə). 1. A self-operating machine or mechanism, especially a robot. 2. One that behaves or responds in a mechanical way. automaton (a type of robot) would be considered a clockwork creation. Golems on the other hand are not. "clockwork" refers to not power, but more on how they achieve movement. A clockwork creature relies on belts/pulleys/gears/pistons/etc. to say move and arm or leg. Golems are most often created from a singular piece of material, they lack the belts/pulleys/gears/pistons/etc. to flex an arm or leg the solid piece of material bends purely by magic. Granted the warforgeds' composite make up looks "mechanical" in nature, it is not.
The Ubbergeek 05-10-07, 02:00 PM	Nah, There are no known gods impeding knowledge. magic, or technology on Eberron while Forgotten Realms is a ass backward in Magic and technology because of their interference limiting magic, tech,and knowledge which is why you can only get basic machines out of "Gond land" and gunpowder (let alone steam power OR nuclear power) won't even work within the dynamics of the Forgotten Realms unless Gond and/or Ohgma, Denier etc allows it (note this is a guess as I have never seen Ebberon Material, but FR material emphasizes that the gods pretty much spin every gear and wheel in FR cosmology) Artifister Eh? Old D&D had a Sub Class of Wizard that depended a lot on Created magic Items and even in the Computer S.S.I. D&D games I had my Magic Using PCs using magic Items over memorized spells out of the Artifist's habit of using wands and devices for offensive/defensive magic and memorized spells for enhancing magic...lol And yeah, a lot of "set in stone" game mechanics trying to limit spells and devices via making it very expensive in material reagents or experience do so for PCs and don't seem to Apply to Thaynians Traders or most NPCs....cause it is mostly about sucking all the fun out of playing a magic user for the ones that don't want to abuse their power by, oh, casting wall of Iron thin and long, using a force spell like a altered Bigsby hand to stamp swords out of the metal and poof....put a little bit of wrappings about the handles and we got a bunch of swords (That the Wizard can't use without proficiency) Bah, you could say Eberron is a Final Fantasyesque cheesefest of MAD magic items galore and all that. FR is better on that aspect.
Braekor Dragonfang 05-10-07, 04:35 PM	Bah, you could say Eberron is a Final Fantasyesque cheesefest of MAD magic items galore and all that. FR is better on that aspect. agreed. problem with magical items in eberron is this: 9/10 of eberron PCs are 10th level or less, yet there are useless multifaceted magical items (read: everything in MoE) that cost MONSTROUS HEAPING LOADS OF GOLD THAT MOST EBERRON PCS COULDNT AFFORD IN A LIFETIME
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 05-10-07, 04:46 PM	Bah, you could say Eberron is a Final Fantasyesque cheesefest of MAD magic items galore and all that. FR is better on that aspect. Only well, not. Eberron has a handfull of casters of any type in the teen levels, magical items are far less prevalent, in terms of Adventuring gear. Yes you get Eternal lanterns in the more properous areas, yes there are Airships (Wich before detractors weigh in FR had long before Eberron) and the Lighning rail But the bulk of casters are Magewrights and adepts, or Dragon marked with at best a small handfull of spell like abilitys. Magic in Eberron is moastly practical, streetlights and Trade lines, or uses local phenomena ( Sharn, a city built upon flight related magic exists becase the Eberron plane of air overlaps on to Eberrons prime material plane). High level magic is a thing from long ago and not readaly avalable. For example Reserection is practicaly unhaerd of untill the PCs can do it themselves. That to me is it. In FR there are powerfull Clerics and the like on hand, and so death is a costly inconvinience, desease a nusance, and there are potent items avalable for trade. In Eberron very soon into there carears the PCs are there own best allys. Your buddy the Cleric of Dol Dorn? One of 2 living clerics able to rase the dead, and in all honesty the only one who might. Your Freind the Arteficer? Yeah, if he cant make it,and you dont find it yor not going to see that magical item. World level this goes on, if the players cannot mend the seal and stop an escaping Dealkyr, no one will. The Buck stops at the players. FR just dosent have that focuss on the PCs, it can be easy to feel swamped amid the history and high level charicters. Thats the big distinction.
GothicDan 05-10-07, 05:03 PM	FR just dosent have that focuss on the PCs, it can be easy to feel swamped amid the history and high level charicters. Thats the big distinction. "Focus on the PCs" really shouldn't be the goal of ANY campaign world. That should be entirely up to the DM to create. For example Reserection is practicaly unhaerd of untill the PCs can do it themselves. This is how it was in FR in 1E and 2E, too. I still find it ridiculous that 3E gives guidelines for being able to access spellcasters and high level spells so freely.
Fabius Maximus 05-10-07, 05:04 PM	Okay. This thread has come to a point where **** ******* ***** continue a certain flame war. May I request a lock?
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 05-10-07, 05:49 PM	This is how it was in FR in 1E and 2E, too. I still find it ridiculous that 3E gives guidelines for being able to access spellcasters and high level spells so freely. But it wasn't I have my Second eddition stuff right here, 1993 printing Forgotten Realms boxed set to be exact. And taking Shadowdale as an example right there in Morningdawn hall what do we have but, 'High Dawnlord Munro Cassimar (LG hm P10)...' (shadowdale booklet page 26) Now reffering to my trusty Second edition PHB Rase Dead was a 5th level cleric spell (found on page 224-225), Verbal and material components, no material. At 10th level the high morninglord could cast it not once, but twice each day. Also in Shadowdale we have 'High Harvestmistress Glamerie Windbough (NG hf P9)' (shadowdale booklet page 27) who could cast the spell once each day did it become needed.
GothicDan 05-10-07, 07:00 PM	Who's flaming? Anyone, as to the clerics - yes, they COULD cast the spell. But it wasn't assumed in previous editions that just because you had gold the cleric would be WILLING to cast it. At least, that's always how I read it.
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 05-10-07, 07:04 PM	My point is in Eberron willingness or not dosen't come up in the way it does in FR, there simply are not the people able to cast the spell at all. You must rely on your fellow players more, becase PC classes are rare, it creates a whole different dynamic.
GothicDan 05-10-07, 07:08 PM	I guess what you say isn't untrue... ;)
Alac Luin 05-10-07, 07:24 PM	If DMs bothered to look at population breakdowns, they would see that there arent as many people able to cast those high level spells. PC1- We need to get across the continent, fast what are our options? PC2- Well, this statue we got should be able to purchase a Wind Walk spell. PC1- Any towns near by? DM- Well, the closest is the thorp of Everything, population 12 its the only populated area for at least 2 days travel. PC1- Ok, we go to this thorp sell statue, after figuring how much it would cost to have this spell cast, do we have anything left over? DM- Yep, 115,00 GP left over. PC2- Yea, now I can get that Manual of quickness in action +4 while we are in town. DM- Done DMs like that can ruin any setting for the players.
MerrikCale 05-10-07, 09:35 PM	As near as I can tell the main difference between FR and Eberron isn't the superficial things like which Gods the Elves Worship or Warforged or anything like that. Nah. I think the biggest difference is you can't get a really good pickle in Eberron
ORC_Paradox 05-11-07, 12:55 AM	Nah. I think the biggest difference is you can't get a really good pickle in Eberron Another misconception! What's this? You've never herad of the Perriwinkle Pickle Pimpernel? Greatest gherkin garnisher since Girshwin.
The Ubbergeek 05-11-07, 01:56 AM	It is manifest that many missconcoptions and tired old clichés are still thriving in the fans of other campaigns, sadly. Some peoples should not talk of what they are not knowing about. Very tiring. I could say, by example, that Eberron is not D&D at all, but a copy of Exalted muted to attract more customers...
GothicDan 05-11-07, 02:08 AM	Oddly enough, I kind of liked Exalted...
ORC_Paradox 05-11-07, 02:14 AM	And I still can't figure out why it HAS to be one OR the other, and why can't anyone like BOTH?
GothicDan 05-11-07, 02:25 AM	Some people can, others can't. For instance, I don't like certain styles of writing, I don't like certain foods (in fact, I don't like the vast majority of foods), I can't stand most music... Asking "WHY" for any preference can often just get a lot of people banging their heads into walls! Personally, there are aspects of Eberron I like, and aspects I don't. So far, the vast majority of aspects of FR I don't like have been introduced by WotC, and some by TSR. There's really not been any campaign setting I've actually disliked other than Birthright.
The Ubbergeek 05-11-07, 02:27 AM	And I still can't figure out why it HAS to be one OR the other, and why can't anyone like BOTH? Human nature - we all have what I call a tendance to 'clanism'. You are in, and one of us, or out, and never one of us - perhaps even an ennemy.... GH vs DL vs FR vs etc, and now vs Eberron, etc.... myself, I would give GH or Eberron a chance maybe, but the few more radical otaku/grognards always end up making me think 'nah....' (in part). Eternal, sadly. Wizo, mon ami(e), i fear it's a lost battle....
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 05-11-07, 09:49 AM	And I still can't figure out why it HAS to be one OR the other, and why can't anyone like BOTH? Actualy despite my past posts here, I Do like FR as well as Eberron, indeed I'm DMing Eberron, playing in an FR campeghn, loving both, and planning my next FR Dming campeghn as we speak. Given half a chanse I could tell you stories of fallen heroes, rising stars, of heroes renouned or simply broken. I simply celebrate the differeances. Sometimes I want to play a grizzled anti hero and Eberron does that well, lets me spoon pulp steriotypes over my fantasy charicter and revel in it. Sometimes I want a good old fantasy epic, I cut my teeth in forgoten realms, our groups expert on realms lore, it can be like comming home.
GothicDan 05-11-07, 10:10 AM	You do realize that FR has a lot of 'pulp' inspiration behind it too, right? ;) Just because TSR/WotC did not tell the populace about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist for those who look for it.
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 05-11-07, 10:29 AM	I know, I've been walking the realms for many a long year, since Second edition running campeghns with just a PHB, a monster manual and some guts, to 3.5 (I skipped third, just as well realy ). But to me its always come off more as a classic fantsy setting, more in the vein of LotR than Raders of the Lost Ark.
GothicDan 05-11-07, 10:31 AM	*Twitches a lot at yet another mention of LotR.* Don't... Understand... Just because Tolkien popularized a lot of the older myths, folklore, older stories and novels, and the like, does not mean that his work is the basis of all others that draw on similar themes. Sigh. :(
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 05-11-07, 10:41 AM	Just becase I use a readly recogised example of the word and Scorcery genere does not mean Im Ignorant of the Works of such people as Frits Leibner, Robert E. Howard, nor the Myths, largly Nordic, upon wich Tolken drew to weave his tale, I mearly expressed the sentiment that the Realms feels more archtypical in its tropes using a more recent and recognisable example.
Stigger 05-11-07, 10:45 AM	Nothing new in any of it, regardless of who's writing it, its all essentially derivative from mythology... ;)
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 05-11-07, 10:51 AM	Old tales in new clothes? I supose thats the difference between FR and Eberron. Both are diferent stages, let us dress our tales in different wardrobes, let us pick often from different stories to so attire. thats all, different props and different constumes, new bacdrops to set the tale against.
Stigger 05-11-07, 10:58 AM	Too much emphasis on anti-heroes and a very bleak world in Eberron as far as I'm concerned. Too much baggage right from the start I guess is how I'd put it. Just not my cup of tea really. But I'm not of the opinion that its a zero-sum game, both can exist just fine alongside each other for as long as WotC wishes them to.
The Ubbergeek 05-11-07, 12:53 PM	Eberron is one of the 'divergent' campaign settings - it is not the more classical fantasy of Mystara and the Big Three. A curse and a blessing, perhaps. I just hope it don't smother everything else. It should never become the base D&D world. Eberron have it's place, but not this one.
ClobberinTime 05-11-07, 02:19 PM	For me the eberron stuff is usefull because it sharpens my own thoughts on FR too. Also where the campaign is going to go should decide your setting. So for instance the AoW adventure path to my mind fits into eberron really nicely and seemlessly, whereas in the FR its a mixed matched affair. Plus in Eberron, the world really needs the PCs to solve this problem, and it is a really really big deal. On the other hand something like say the new DemonWeb adventure, or plane hopping, or planescapesque stuff has no place at all in Eberron. So I think it really depends on where you want to take things which campaign setting you should use, neither is always better.
Francius 05-11-07, 02:40 PM	Well, many differences come to mind by comparing the two fantasy settings between them, but surely the main two are: 1st: The Forgotten Realms are pure high fantasy medieval action as we all know, love and grew up with; Eberron is a setting technologically ahead from the classical middle-ages, though (in a strange and altered way) it still encompasses all the classic medieval elements from other "pure" medieval fantasy worlds. 2nd: The Eberron planet's circumference (meaning the distance from east to west if you measure it by unfolding the globe on a flat map) measures 16.500 miles. The Abeir-Toril (Forgotten Realms) planet measures 24.000 miles for the same distance. It also has continents that are (both in number and size) greater than Eberron's. Me, I feel more at home with the Forgotten Realms...but I guess most of you already know it... :cool:
MarkusTay63 05-11-07, 05:07 PM	Like I said in an earlier thread, they got 'planet envy' :P Unfortunately, ANYTHING you find wrong with one setting you can find in some small way in the other. They are far more alike then they are different. People like/dislike Eberron because it is shiney and new; but guess what? It ain't!!!! Don't like Dragonmarks? I distinctly remember Thayans having to have tatoos to cast their 'speciality' spells... Hate airships? Besides halrua, FR ships went into space! Hello... which setting is more high tech (magically speaking)? Eberron has a (really cool) floating fortress... Netheril had ENTIRE CITIES! Warforged? Both Imaskar AND Raumanthor had bigger and better, and if you point out the 'sentient' thing, well... Netheril's 'been-there-done-that" with the Thaluds... and don't even get me started about all those 'cutesy' autamatons halaster's got... Lets see... Elves are good in woods; check...Dwarves live underground; check... Pirates roam the seas; check... Dragons had a big 'ol war with the giants in primordial times; check... Goblins used to have an advanced civilization... hmmmm, I think.. no, wait! There it is! There used to be one in Cormyr, so thats a big ol' checkarooney there... A great big HUGE area where magic blasted the land and left it a wasteland...oh please, FR's got AT LEAST five of those! Hey! I think I found a difference! Eberron's got a Choo-choo! Yeah! I LOVE Choo-choos! :dancin: Of course, a planet literally covered with portals is so much more effecient... :rolleyes: For instance, I don't like certain styles of writing, I don't like certain foods (in fact, I don't like the vast majority of foods), I can't stand most music...I haven't found a style I DON'T like, although I do find Shakespear a wee bit hard to take in large doses. I LOVE every type of food I have thus far encountered (hence my being a 100 Lbs. overweight). I like every single kind of music... except for perhaps those 'recital things' my kids drag me to.. :yuck: You say TOmato, I say toMATo. ;) Personally, there are aspects of Eberron I like, and aspects I don't. So far, the vast majority of aspects of FR I don't like have been introduced by WotC, and some by TSR.I'm sitting here right now trying for the life of me to think of the third kind... :thinks: There's really not been any campaign setting I've actually disliked other than Birthright.I would have agreed with you there, and thrown in Council of Wyrms for good measure, buuuut... I never bought any Birthright stuff, just flipped through it at the store and nothing caught my eye. I didn't like the whole premise of PCs being rulers of realms; it was just too far away from my idea of a RPG. Recently, howeever, I was reading something (quite by accident) that I downloaded awhile ago from the WotC site from that setting, and guess what? It's PERFECT for something I'm working on for Kara-Tur! They had this place called the 'Shadow world', where all the dark spirits/fey/etc... came from. It's that place you can see out of the corner of your eye, but when you turn its gone! So, after some 15 years of hate I'm finally finding something good from there. Sometimes ya' just got to be an optimist, Dan. ;) *Twitches a lot at yet another mention of LotR.* Don't... Understand... Just because Tolkien popularized a lot of the older myths, folklore, older stories and novels, and the like, does not mean that his work is the basis of all others that draw on similar themes. Sigh. :(Although Mr.Tolkien got most of it right (Trolls turn to stone, goblins and Orcs come from the same species as Elves originally, etc), he TOTALLY screwed up calling them Elves! Fäeries were the tall, graceful, elegant people Tolkien describes. Elves, on the other hand, are tiny little mischievious critters that like to play pranks. I think, given the time period he published in, that using 'Fäeries' for his heroes may have been career suicide, and thats what made him make the switch. So, since all of our current game ideas concerning Elves come from him (and he got it wrong), then I can honestly say that any world using his concept of Elves is 'Tolkienesque'. Because, if he had used the correct terminolgy, we'd have a whole bunch of 'dark Fäerie' fanboys running around, and that just doen't sound right. :nonono:
MerrikCale 05-11-07, 09:09 PM	And I still can't figure out why it HAS to be one OR the other, and why can't anyone like BOTH? Its like being a Yankee and a Red Sox fan
XHereticX 05-11-07, 09:15 PM	FR is High-level and high magic. Eberron is low-level and high tech That bascically sums it up, plus planet size differences and faith differences.
Alac Luin 05-11-07, 09:37 PM	Eberron is low-level and high tech When you sat "tech", what do you mean?
XHereticX 05-11-07, 09:49 PM	When you sat "tech", what do you mean? technology, like eberron already has a railroad system.
Bolithio 05-11-07, 09:50 PM	2nd: The Eberron planet's circumference (meaning the distance from east to west if you measure it by unfolding the globe on a flat map) measures 16.500 miles. The Abeir-Toril (Forgotten Realms) planet measures 24.000 miles for the same distance. It also has continents that are (both in number and size) greater than Eberron's. Finally a real relevant point!!! Nice digging. This blows my Trains difference way out of the sea. That said, lets summarize: The most important difference between Forgotten Realms and robot land...i mean Eberron is: 1: FR has a much, much bigger Planet, and 2 FR does NOT have trains. :tissue:
XHereticX 05-11-07, 09:54 PM	Finally a real relevant point!!! Nice digging. This blows my Trains difference way out of the sea. That said, lets summarize: The most important difference between Forgotten Realms and robot land...i mean Eberron is: 1: FR has a much, much bigger Planet, and 2 FR does NOT have trains. :tissue: Plus FR has gods that are actually actively involved in their world's affairs. And Eberron nearly has no real "canon"(the novels aren't consitered canon) while the FR is jam-packed with it.
DaelricHearthsinger 05-11-07, 09:56 PM	To me the main difference is the Realms feel more "lived in". A history thats deeper, characters who actually seem (for the most part) "real" or if you prefer "three diminsonal". Admittedly with 20 or so years of game products and novels (plus however many years of development before that by Ed Greenwood) it <b>should</b> feel that way. To me the Realms are an old friend I've grown up with, watched grow and change here and there but mostly is the same old grey box I opened 20 years ago. I think that's the main difference. The Realms has evolved over time, while unfortunately, again in my opinion, most of Eberron seems like a bunch of different threads thrown together (which if I recall it kind of is). Perhaps wth 20 years under it's belt Eberron will evolve to be as rich and colorful a world as Faerun, but that has yet to be seen.
XHereticX 05-11-07, 09:59 PM	To me the main difference is the Realms feel more "lived in". A history thats deeper, characters who actually seem (for the most part) "real" or if you prefer "three diminsonal". Admittedly with 20 or so years of game products and novels (plus however many years of development before that by Ed Greenwood) it <b>should</b> feel that way. To me the Realms are an old friend I've grown up with, watched grow and change here and there but mostly is the same old grey box I opened 20 years ago. I think that's the main difference. The Realms has evolved over time, while unfortunately, again in my opinion, most of Eberron seems like a bunch of different threads thrown together (which if I recall it kind of is). Perhaps wth 20 years under it's belt Eberron will evolve to be as rich and colorful a world as Faerun, but that has yet to be seen. FR is about exploring the past, while Eberron is about shaping the future. The main difference between the two setting is that in FR the "golden age" of the great empires is long over and all the most powerful NPCs already exist, you just seem to walk in their footsteps. Eberron on the other hand, the Golden Age is "now", and your PCs are the shaping force behind the world and it has a very fresh and pulp feeling that a lot of new players love. Plus the fact that FR has more material than most new players bother to read and take in, we are talking about more than 10,000 years of detailed history here.
Alac Luin 05-11-07, 10:20 PM	technology, like eberron already has a railroad system. But the word "technology" can have many different connotations. Technology in basic definition implies the use of scientific methods to affect change in an environment. In your use of "tech", does magic use qualify as "scientific methods" ? If yes to this, I can agree the Eberron has a more wide spread use of Tech. On the other hand, Forgotten Realms has a higher level of accomplishment. Also, many times "tech" is used as a gauge of use of mechanical means of accomplishing tasks. If you used "tech" in this manner, this would be false. The Realms has many more mechanical devices then does Eberron. (Note: Eberron's choo-choo is a magical device)
Bolithio 05-11-07, 10:32 PM	...and your PCs are the shaping force behind the world .... I would like to think that the direction of a campaign setting, as far as "shaping" the future, is weighing heavily on the DM. This is independent of any setting. Detailed history or not.
MarkusTay63 05-11-07, 11:26 PM	Plus FR has gods that are actually actively involved in their world's affairs.ummmm... was that supposed to be a good point or a bad point? :uh-huh: Eberron's got Choo-choos! Choo-choos rock! Yeah Eberron! :cheer: Why can't we get a Choo-choo? :weep:
Stigger 05-12-07, 01:58 AM	You could always stick a Halruaan Light Rail System or something in if it makes you feel better Markus... :D
Derren S. 05-12-07, 03:51 AM	FR: LotR Copy. A High fantasy world witout believable politics and technological/magical advancment. The world is more or less static and will always stay the same because otherwise it would destroy the LotR/fantasy image of the world. The players are just some small fishes in a pond with lots of super powerfull legends around who the world revolves. Everron: Renessaince/modern day with magic instead of technology. Unconventional fantasy as it is rennesaince inspired. World is much more ogical but to some people logic should not be part of a fantasy game. The PCs are the big heroes in Eberron as besides some strange NPCs and some villians there are no powerfull NPCs.
Alediran 05-12-07, 09:20 AM	FR: LotR Copy. A High fantasy world witout believable politics and technological/magical advancment. The world is more or less static and will always stay the same because otherwise it would destroy the LotR/fantasy image of the world. The players are just some small fishes in a pond with lots of super powerfull legends around who the world revolves. Somebody is going to get a Smite Troll.
XHereticX 05-12-07, 10:43 AM	FR: LotR Copy. A High fantasy world witout believable politics and technological/magical advancment. The world is more or less static and will always stay the same because otherwise it would destroy the LotR/fantasy image of the world. The players are just some small fishes in a pond with lots of super powerfull legends around who the world revolves. Everron: Renessaince/modern day with magic instead of technology. Unconventional fantasy as it is rennesaince inspired. World is much more ogical but to some people logic should not be part of a fantasy game. The PCs are the big heroes in Eberron as besides some strange NPCs and some villians there are no powerfull NPCs. I mostly agree with you here except for the fact that you said FR was a LoTR carbon copy with a sardonic tone. The PCs, while not the first or so far greatest heroes in FR, are not insignificant and have the potential to become "super powerfull legends" in the world. And while FR draws influences from LoTR, there is a much higher focus on magic in the Realms, no references of christianity, and no Great evil threatning the entire continent at once. And the PCs are the "big heroes" in Eberron because big heroes in Eberron are no more than a bunch of Lv 15s with +3 stuff.
The Ubbergeek 05-12-07, 12:50 PM	A lot of anti-FR clichés are seen there again. :rolleyes: FR is as much about the future as eberron, and the heroes to come will shape it.... It's not a dying world. iTs always in flux, ever changing.... They are at the beginning of a new era...
DaelricHearthsinger 05-12-07, 12:57 PM	Sorry to have brought up history ;) But you picked out one sentence, please read the whole thing about Faerun growing and changing, its the past the makes the Realms more lived in, its that same past the propels the Realms to a future which will be molded in part by the pc's playing in your campaign (sigh, gets off soapbox)
Wenin 05-12-07, 01:29 PM	XP shouldn't limit the amount of magic within a campaign setting, since NPCs don't earn XP. They only take XP away from players if they happen to be involved in combat the players are involved in. How are those Thayans able to freely make magic items? They're really good roleplayers, everyday of their NPC life. The GM issues them this XP since NPCs rock just that hard at roleplaying. What I'm saying is that FR doesn't lack everyday magic, because it doesn't have a Magewright or Artificer class. It lacks the everyday magic, because to the common person, magic isn't suppose to be everyday in the FR setting. This isn't the way it is everywhere, nor throughout time. Haluraa has everyday magic. Myth Drannor had everyday magic. Nethril... Now I can't say anything about Eberron, as I've not read a single one of its setting source books, nor do I bother to visit their Forum to discuss the strengths of Forgotten Realms. I've found what I want in FR, and I've been playing/studying the setting off and on for ~17 years. Biggest difference my ignorant self sees between the two settings..... Forgotten Realms was a homebrew campaign created by Ed Greenwood, that by its own merit was good enough to attract people to play within the world. Eberron, created in a conference room, and pushed by a marketing department. Only time will tell if Eberron has staying power. Which is better, home made soup, or Progressive soup? To each their own.
MarkusTay63 05-12-07, 04:46 PM	You could always stick a Halruaan Light Rail System or something in if it makes you feel better Markus... :DActually, in my 'future' realms campaign I had a Dwarven railroad (inspired by a book called The Iron Dragon). There was one to the South, built by the 'Rift' Dwarves, and one built by the Dwarves of 'new' Shanatar. It was a big 'to-do' when North met South, and the two groups drove a Mithril spike into the tracks in celebration. :D I had a group of Elves in Anchorome (where the campaign actually took place) that had 'embraced' the new arcano-tech, unlike Elves elsewhere. They lived in the Holly Forest, and had built a monorail through the trees. They also designed a type of gunne that had a built-in mini-portal to the Elemental Plane of Earth, where it drew forth metalic material from. The bullets were automatically created by the wepon, and the propulsion system was magical, not chemical (figure a compressed 'create air' directly behind the slug). In this way, they were the only ones who had weapons that NEVER needed reloading. So, of course, everyone wanted one of those 'Holly Wood' guns. ;) Now back to our regulary scheduled tirade.... FR and Eberron are on a very even keel, except for maybe NPCs being lower level in Eb. Figure that FR is an older, 'wiser', world, and it's 'Eberron Period' has already come and went. They had their Netheril and Imaskar, and they've moved on. In a few hundred years most of the Eberron NPCs will have aged (and leveled), empires will have fallen, and everything will all be the same in the end. I really don't see the difference, all that much. In fact, calling Eberron 'different' was nothing more then a cheap marketing ploy. There is NOTHING new or creative about it, I have seen every last thing that setting (or ANY setting, for that matter) has to offer. It's all been done before, trust me. WotC just wrapped it all up in a shiney new package, thats all. And as far as the power level goes, MY PCs have never run into ANY NPC above 12th level, so its all about how you DM; DON'T blame the setting.
ClobberinTime 05-12-07, 05:06 PM	XP shouldn't limit the amount of magic within a campaign setting, since NPCs don't earn XP. They only take XP away from players if they happen to be involved in combat the players are involved in. How are those Thayans able to freely make magic items? They're really good roleplayers, everyday of their NPC life. The GM issues them this XP since NPCs rock just that hard at roleplaying. What I'm saying is that FR doesn't lack everyday magic, because it doesn't have a Magewright or Artificer class. It lacks the everyday magic, because to the common person, magic isn't suppose to be everyday in the FR setting. This isn't the way it is everywhere, nor throughout time. Haluraa has everyday magic. Myth Drannor had everyday magic. Nethril... Now I can't say anything about Eberron, as I've not read a single one of its setting source books, nor do I bother to visit their Forum to discuss the strengths of Forgotten Realms. I've found what I want in FR, and I've been playing/studying the setting off and on for ~17 years. Biggest difference my ignorant self sees between the two settings..... Forgotten Realms was a homebrew campaign created by Ed Greenwood, that by its own merit was good enough to attract people to play within the world. Eberron, created in a conference room, and pushed by a marketing department. Only time will tell if Eberron has staying power. Which is better, home made soup, or Progressive soup? To each their own. Well I agree with you about at least one thing, i.e. that you don't know anything about Eberron, it was a fan submission in a contest. :) I think you are missing the point too, your explanation of how the realms is the way it is, is just the sort of attitude that got the novel writers into trouble. I want the world to be like X, so I make up some hokey unreasonable plot device that makes no sense in game terms to make it so. the one thing Eberron does have going for it is a sound mechanic in game terms for the ubiquity of magic items.
Bolithio 05-12-07, 07:47 PM	I think you are missing the point too Yes....Which planet is Bigger?
mhacdebhandia 05-12-07, 08:03 PM	The big difference, IMHO, is the Dragonmarks. You have to be born with the ability to cast magic? It isn't so muched 'learned' as it is 'inherited'? And the fact that each 'Mark' leads to different abilities is somewhat limiting in a way. Dragonmarks seem, to me anyway, too much of a holdover from 'Birthright' (A setting which tanked, BTW). As others have said, you are absolutely mistaken in your belief that only dragonmarked characters can use magic. Any character with the right ability scores can use magic, per the normal rules. A character's dragonmark simply gives them access to a small number of spell-like abilities, few of which are very powerful by themselves; their economic impact on the setting is because of special magical items which harness and enhance the power of the dragonmarks to bigger and better ends.
MarkusTay63 05-13-07, 02:20 AM	Sorry, I stand corrected. I only own the CS and the Sharn book, but I plan to get Sarlona ASAP. I was under the impression that you had to have a dragonmark to cast spells? Guess the setting is even LESS different then I thought. :smirk: Well I agree with you about at least one thing, i.e. that you don't know anything about Eberron, it was a fan submission in a contest. The point was that FR had thirty years of RW history behind it, including a plethora of magazine articles, before it ever became official. It was also an on-going campign for most of that time, so it was HEAVILY field-tested. And yes, the guy won a contest. So did Ruben on American Idol... I think I saw him on the subway yesterday singing for change... :rolleyes: AFTER his proposal was accepted, he was thrown in a room with a dozen other people who re-worked all of his ideas into a cohesive whole, therefore it certainly was just 'thrown together' in a few meetings, by the same people who loved his idea in the first place. There is a small town in Italy where all the folks enjoy worm-infested cheese... but that doesn't mean the rest of has to like it. I have nothing against Eberron, and have even borrowed a couple of things, but only time will tell if it has staying power. I remember when DL was 'all the rage', but thats pretty much gone now too. Both Planescape and Dark Sun were super-popular coming out of the starting gate; in fact, I think PS STILL has more source books out then Eberron... ;) Either way, I could care less... its all the same to me. I've lived through the death of two other beloved settings before, and I'll probably see another twenty come and go. And I run them all the same... there really is NO difference.
Faraer 05-13-07, 08:33 AM	If any of you knows the history of Eberron before Wizards bought it from Keith Baker, or the differences between his submission and the published version, I'd be interested to hear.
GothicDan 05-13-07, 09:15 AM	Either way, I could care less... its all the same to me. I've lived through the death of two other beloved settings before, and I'll probably see another twenty come and go. And I run them all the same... there really is NO difference. I think that's what it comes down to, for better or for worse. Your typical person will run a campaign setting any way he wants, regardless of how it was "intended." Only people truly interested in a campaign setting, separated from actual regular gameplay in it, will care about the differences between the two. I'm not saying that one precludes the other, but I'm saying, for the differences to matter, you HAVE to care about the setting itself, not just playing in it. Your average Joe? Whether it's FR or Eberron, it won't really matter.
Francius 05-13-07, 09:45 AM	Finally a real relevant point!!! Nice digging. This blows my Trains difference way out of the sea. That said, lets summarize: The most important difference between Forgotten Realms and robot land...i mean Eberron is: 1: FR has a much, much bigger Planet, and 2 FR does NOT have trains. Excellent! Excellent! Keep in mind that I 've never seen anyone noticing how this fact of planet size difference is true whilst I've read a thousand of posts where people call the Eberron "robot land" and they mention as out of place from a medieval world that railway train technology - heck, I myself did it. So much for not wanting to be a repetitive automaton (no pun to the warforged) over the same things when talking about Eberron and instead trying to pick a different path. Yeah, so much for an encore. Yes....Which planet is Bigger? Yes...let's instead repeat the same arguments about Eberron a few thousand times more - 'till we finally get the nausea. Hurray for Bolithio and originality. :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :rofl: :rolleye2:
GothicDan 05-13-07, 09:54 AM	... I think Bolithio was being sarcastic.
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 05-13-07, 10:37 AM	One thing, as my recent expereiance has proven. Is that Forgotten realms is more acepting of varied high level play with small groups. Eberron has a lot of high level threats, but its hard to see why someone fighting the Lords of dust would be exesavely concerned with the Dealkyrs plots. For me if no one else, it became hard to fing convincing high level chalenges and still keep sufficent variety to stop it getting stale. In a large group with several players tahts eayer, for solo campeghns it got old. Fr is easyer to take epic without lusing its feel.
The WarOverlord 05-13-07, 10:51 AM	But the word "technology" can have many different connotations. Technology in basic definition implies the use of scientific methods to affect change in an environment. In your use of "tech", does magic use qualify as "scientific methods" ? If yes to this, I can agree the Eberron has a more wide spread use of Tech. On the other hand, Forgotten Realms has a higher level of accomplishment. Also, many times "tech" is used as a gauge of use of mechanical means of accomplishing tasks. If you used "tech" in this manner, this would be false. The Realms has many more mechanical devices then does Eberron. (Note: Eberron's choo-choo is a magical device) Well. magic is the ability to alter reality with the mind and/or will using Natural Energy that permeates the very same time/space and "reality" And with Magic you can make metal and force "things" like a "Greater Machine" that walks around and moves things around , so the "Art" can be used to make practical things and thus can be considered "Technoogy" based on what is used. Thing is that While this Ebberon thing emphasizes utilitarian magic, it doesn't mean that Toril doesn't have flashlights and lanterns using Continual light spells cast on marbles, or Street lights using those same Marbles of Continual ligt....It's just not mentioned Likewise Waterdeep and Neverwinter and most of the Cities in Forgotten Realms have Sewers which means there IS plumming connected to those Sewers as well as "Water works" technology but PC never think of flushing a toilet as it gains them no experience...lol Pots that heat themselves, Spoons that make a meal when they are stirred in a pot, clothes that clean themselves, and other such "minor Items" are mentioned in the Forgotten Realms Campaign setting as "Gimmicks" but most adventueres are interested in tings like Wands of Fireballs and Sword of +50 v.s. Munchkins and not a pot that heats whatever is in it when you say "Pot on" and stops heating when you say "Pot off"
Wenin 05-13-07, 11:09 AM	Well I agree with you about at least one thing, i.e. that you don't know anything about Eberron, it was a fan submission in a contest. And yes, the guy won a contest. So did Ruben on American Idol... I think I saw him on the subway yesterday singing for change... :rolleyes: Nicely put. Did Keith Baker have Eberron floating around on the internet for the past two decades with a following before it won the contest? Does he still own the rights to the world or is it still a world by committee?
AllisterH 05-13-07, 12:44 PM	Nicely put. Did Keith Baker have Eberron floating around on the internet for the past two decades with a following before it won the contest? Does he still own the rights to the world or is it still a world by committee? Ouch. That's kind of mean-spirited. The contest wasn't judged by the public but by the internal team of WOTC so technically it isn't similar to American idol. Eberron was a personal campaign setting a la Ed's Forgotten Realms so you can see they are more similar. As for another difference, I think Eberron has actually thought about the effect of low level magic on the setting. For example, as mentioned, pretty much every town and city has continual lights being used for streetlights whereas I think only the biggest cities might have this. If I remember my Faiths & Avatars, Mystra actually frowns on using magic for "utility" and also the fact that the gods of knowledge suppress technology thus gunpowder doesn't work properly. Without that, you're going to have a populace who think of magic as nothing more than a tool which is different than how magic is seen as the Art in the Realms.
Alac Luin 05-13-07, 01:54 PM	Well. magic is the ability to alter reality with the mind and/or will using Natural Energy that permeates the very same time/space and "reality" <sniped for space> Both magic and mechanical means can accomplish the same things, and can be considered "tech". But there is a difference between magic and mechanical means. To many people think of Eberron as some mechanical wonderland. I was trying to point out it is not. I'm fully aware of the Realms having allot utilitarian magic. Eberron does have it more visible, and makes it a point to place it in the hands of "average folk". So, its a point that I cant argue against.
Wenin 05-13-07, 03:17 PM	Ouch. That's kind of mean-spirited. You can see it that way, (I happen to really like Kelly Clarkson, as she's really good.... as Eberron could very well be). We are talking about differences between the two settings. Forgotten Realms has solid roots within a homebrewed world, with years of work and play that gave it life before it entered the public realm. It has stood the test of time for 20+ years, with more and more lore having been added to the library, giving it even more life. Eberron, was an imaginative setting that won a contest and now has the support of the same leading RPG company. It has been around for 2+ years, still getting off the ground. Forgotten Realms is the Grateful Dead, and Eberron is Kelly Clarkson. Another possible big difference is the whole Action Point system. I don't know the specifics as they deal with Eberron, but I've heard snippets, and heard how similiarly named systems are used in other D20 systems. It would seem that the system would allow the PCs to be more "heroic", preforming feats beyond that allowed by the core rules. Right? If so, I'm sure this has a great impact on the play of the setting as well. I do have a question about the point made about NPC levels. Is there anything stated in the Eberron setting that explains the lack of high level NPCs? It only seems natural that within history, others have had to walk the path the PCs have walked, so there must be higher level people about.
Alac Luin 05-13-07, 03:34 PM	I do have a question about the point made about NPC levels. Is there anything stated in the Eberron setting that explains the lack of high level NPCs? It only seems natural that within history, others have had to walk the path the PCs have walked, so there must be higher level people about. Most of the high level characters died during the Last War. (personally, I think that stance is bogus. Higher level characters are harder to kill, and war seems like a great place to earn XP to raise in level. I guess they all die before reaching "highish" level. :))
Wenin 05-13-07, 04:24 PM	Most of the high level characters died during the Last War. (personally, I think that stance is bogus. Higher level characters are harder to kill, and war seems like a great place to earn XP to raise in level. I guess they all die before reaching "highish" level. :)) A Logan's Run-esque population control? =)
XHereticX 05-13-07, 04:52 PM	A lot of anti-FR clichés are seen there again. :rolleyes: FR is as much about the future as eberron, and the heroes to come will shape it.... It's not a dying world. iTs always in flux, ever changing.... They are at the beginning of a new era... I know, what I mean by not advancing is that society and technology is not advancing. FR will always be a mystical high-fantasy type world no matter how the power level shifts. The heroes will change, the nations will change, and even the gods will change, but the basic society will not change. Don't get me wrong, I love FR and despise Eberron, I'm just playing devil's advocate and trying to bring up eberron's good points to stir conversation.
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 05-13-07, 04:54 PM	Actualy with all the fighting that happened In cyre its resonable to beleive a lot of the high level npcs bought it when the Morning hit.
The Ubbergeek 05-13-07, 05:00 PM	A Logan's Run-esque population control? =) It's what the Githyankis do after all - their Lich-Queen take the soul of anyone powerfull enough. She is jealous of being shadowed even the slightest and she crave godhood (and so want to gain power). Make one wonder about what happened in Eberron....
AllisterH 05-13-07, 10:29 PM	Forgotten Realms has solid roots within a homebrewed world, with years of work and play that gave it life before it entered the public realm. It has stood the test of time for 20+ years, with more and more lore having been added to the library, giving it even more life. Another possible big difference is the whole Action Point system. I don't know the specifics as they deal with Eberron, but I've heard snippets, and heard how similiarly named systems are used in other D20 systems. It would seem that the system would allow the PCs to be more "heroic", preforming feats beyond that allowed by the core rules. Right? If so, I'm sure this has a great impact on the play of the setting as well. I do have a question about the point made about NPC levels. Is there anything stated in the Eberron setting that explains the lack of high level NPCs? It only seems natural that within history, others have had to walk the path the PCs have walked, so there must be higher level people about. Slight correction: Eberron is slightly older than this. Given that it was from when Mr. Baker was working on a now cancelled MMORPG, my guess is the setting itself is closer to 5-7 years old. The action pt system i brief gives a set number of AP. Each AP can add 1d6 to a d20 roll and you can a set number each level. As you can imagine, you're not going to be using them if you fail to get a disguise check for some kid down the street :D As for the absence of high level characters (there are a few in the setting above 8th level), the actual problem is that the last war was LITERALLY a meat grinder (which is why the Warforge were created). Think Italy in the 1st WW and France as well. Both countries literally lost every man of fighting age (the Italians lost 40,000 men in one month of fighting) and like those real world examples, the Eberron war basically was press-ganging men and throwing basically cannon fodder. That type of war actually decreases the chance of high level people as without adequate training, most soldiers I imagined never goit past level 3-4
GothicDan 05-13-07, 11:05 PM	Both countries literally lost every man of fighting age (the Italians lost 40,000 men in one month of fighting) and like those real world examples, the Eberron war basically was press-ganging men and throwing basically cannon fodder. I'd have no problem with this applying to non-spellcasters. But trying to explain away the lack of presence of powerful arcane spellcasters with this method just never flies with me. Probably because I'm a physicist, and even during the World Wars, physicists weren't mass slaughtered (and this is what I tend to equate Wizards the most with in real life; Artificers would be more like Engineers).
The Ubbergeek 05-13-07, 11:30 PM	I'd have no problem with this applying to non-spellcasters. But trying to explain away the lack of presence of powerful arcane spellcasters with this method just never flies with me. Probably because I'm a physicist, and even during the World Wars, physicists weren't mass slaughtered (and this is what I tend to equate Wizards the most with in real life; Artificers would be more like Engineers). Secret war? What, with rogues and all... Spying, assassinations and all.... I am sure each nations (somes, at least) had 'ninja' units, commandos, and targeted such 'living tanks'.... Spellcasters tend to be weak without their spells, so... A dagger in the back close this issue.
Alac Luin 05-13-07, 11:53 PM	Spellcasters tend to be weak without their spells, so... A dagger in the back close this issue. Thats why any wizard deserving anything over a 15 INT has protection spells and and other contingencies. One also has to remember, not every nation was involved in the Lat War. To use "they died during the last war" excuse looses credibility with bit of knowledge. I got it, Spellcasters never gained levels, becouse they were making all those magic items. Fighters only fought low level (low CR) troops in the field, and they had to share those XP with all members of their unit (including the quartermasters and cooks). ;) I'm not bashing Eberron, just this excuse.
AllisterH 05-14-07, 07:29 AM	Thats why any wizard deserving anything over a 15 INT has protection spells and and other contingencies. One also has to remember, not every nation was involved in the Lat War. To use "they died during the last war" excuse looses credibility with bit of knowledge. I got it, Spellcasters never gained levels, becouse they were making all those magic items. Fighters only fought low level (low CR) troops in the field, and they had to share those XP with all members of their unit (including the quartermasters and cooks). ;) I'm not bashing Eberron, just this excuse. Actually, with the 3E system, I think Eberron's relative lack of high level adventurers compared to say even GH makes sense. Ah, but remember, 3.5E has somewhat nerfed protection magic so that it doesn't last as long. While it is quite true that a wizard knowing what's coming can be adequately protected, most protection spells only have 10 minutes/level as duration AND contingency itself is a high level spell. Then again, there's the whole 3E XP system to think of. In previous editions, a wizard didn't have to adventure to get XP. Make a new spell or item and voila, XP gained. Furthermore, you could simply keep killing kobolds and eventually you would go up a level (might have to exterminate a million of them :D but what, kobolds are in the billions it seems...) no matter what level you are. A 16th level wizard in 3E is going to have a MUCH harder time advancing further since anything CR 8 and below won't give him any XP. Hell, by the time a PC hits 12th level, you're going to have problems getting XP unless he goes looking for it. I personally don't see the lack of high levels a problem if there were no high level threats in the setting background. The Eberron setting introduces new high level areas (kind of like the WoW introducing new high level servers) caused by the Last War.
Francius 05-14-07, 08:09 AM	Think Italy in the 1st WW and France as well. Both countries literally lost every man of fighting age (the Italians lost 40,000 men in one month of fighting). Actually, this is utterly incorrect. When the Italians first took act in the WW I, they tried to invade the Austrian borders and take by force two Austrian cities near the isonz river. Only 700 vehicles carrying military troops were sent initially. Not even near the 40,000 of soldiers number you mention were on them. The Italian soldiers were few, young and unequipped. The Italian forces were twice repelled during the first month of combat by the Austrian forces (but the casualties were not even near 40,000). Almost a year later the Italian forces finally succeeded in entering Austria - albeit with heavy losses.
Panurg 05-14-07, 11:39 AM	Actually, this is utterly incorrect. When the Italians first took act in the WW I, they tried to invade the Austrian borders and take by force two Austrian cities near the isonz river. Only 700 vehicles carrying military troops were sent initially. Not even near the 40,000 of soldiers number you mention were on them. The Italian soldiers were few, young and unequipped. The Italian forces were twice repelled during the first month of combat by the Austrian forces (but the casualties were not even near 40,000). Almost a year later the Italian forces finally succeeded in entering Austria - albeit with heavy losses. It should also be mentioned, that Italian forces had one of their greatest successes in battle during WW I when they captured an Austrian army (who has laid their weapons down because war was over) two days after the end of WW I. :P
Alac Luin 05-14-07, 11:55 AM	I personally don't see the lack of high levels a problem if there were no high level threats in the setting background. The Eberron setting introduces new high level areas (kind of like the WoW introducing new high level servers) caused by the Last War. Thats the thing. If it was left alone, it would be fine and dandy. But they gave one of the worst excuses for lack of high level characters. Typically a war is a breading ground for experience. The Last War is more likely to breed high level NPCs, not get rid of them. We are only talking enough "protections" to help control this rampant "assassinate the wizard" considering the wizard is part of the other side's army and is surrounded said army. Alarm still has a relatively high enough duration, to warn a wizard while sleeping, during waking hours, they should be surrounded by other military assets, if they are a valuable enough for one side to want to assassinate, they should be considered as an asset for the side they are working on. Granted, this wouldn't be perfect. Also, my reference to wizards/XP/Magic items was a complete joke. I think to many people think NPCs need to follow the same rules as PCs when it comes to this.
Khaelieth 05-14-07, 12:09 PM	Actually, this is utterly incorrect. When the Italians first took act in the WW I, they tried to invade the Austrian borders and take by force two Austrian cities near the isonz river. Only 700 vehicles carrying military troops were sent initially. Not even near the 40,000 of soldiers number you mention were on them. The Italian soldiers were few, young and unequipped. The Italian forces were twice repelled during the first month of combat by the Austrian forces (but the casualties were not even near 40,000). Almost a year later the Italian forces finally succeeded in entering Austria - albeit with heavy losses. Britain, 1918: 1 male to every 7 females or so.
Wenin 05-14-07, 12:24 PM	The whole "The Last War" is the cause of the lack of high level characters reasoning.... is this provided by the Campaign setting sources and is the canon reason, or is this an assumption? =) In either case, it shouldn't really matter, for when it comes to wars and high body counts.... it's generally the experienced soldiers that survive. The body counts come from noobs making mistakes that the experienced soldiers already learned by watching their past buddies dying by them. I'm on the side that war breeds more experienced people, in all walks of life. Now if we are talking about some kind of major cataclysm, such as wide spread disease, drought, floods, meteor impact... etc... where one's experience really won't help them survive the initial situation.... well except for disease and that Fort save bonus with levels =)
Alac Luin 05-14-07, 12:39 PM	The whole "The Last War" is the cause of the lack of high level characters reasoning.... is this provided by the Campaign setting sources and is the canon reason, or is this an assumption? =) That is the reason I heard countless times on the Eberron boards, and I believe not just from "Joe Schmuck poster" (even if this the only reason "Joe Schmuck poster" give). Meaning, the setting creator may have said this himself. You raise a good point though, I'll try to see if this is actually written out in the CS, if I can find the book.
Bolithio 05-14-07, 01:20 PM	Forgotten Realms is the Grateful Dead Never heard that one before...
GothicDan 05-14-07, 01:35 PM	Secret war? What, with rogues and all... Spying, assassinations and all.... I am sure each nations (somes, at least) had 'ninja' units, commandos, and targeted such 'living tanks'.... Spellcasters tend to be weak without their spells, so... A dagger in the back close this issue. If that's the reason that they give for the loss of high level SPELLCASTERS, than I'll hate the reasoning even more. I'm sorry, but rogues vs. high level wizards are toast, in their OWN STRONGHOLD. Even in 3E.
Francius 05-14-07, 02:04 PM	It should also be mentioned, that Italian forces had one of their greatest successes in battle during WW I when they captured an Austrian army (who has laid their weapons down because war was over) two days after the end of WW I. :P Strangely (alright, not so strangely) this fact I have no knowledge of. :thinks: I am not going to say that you're lying (although I should :P ), instead I'm just going to add that war with fire weapons and cannons is worse than famine and the plague combined. Long live the fantasy medieval wars: where at least humans and the other nigh humans unite to fend off orcs, goblins, undead and other foulish monsters (like Tolkien first taught us in the war of 5 armies).
The Ubbergeek 05-14-07, 02:16 PM	If that's the reason that they give for the loss of high level SPELLCASTERS, than I'll hate the reasoning even more. I'm sorry, but rogues vs. high level wizards are toast, in their OWN STRONGHOLD. Even in 3E. Magic is not always perfect. ;) Spellcasters can be bluffed and beaten by more roguish guys, just look at fantasy litterature. ;)
protonik 05-14-07, 02:26 PM	The magewright class doesn't explain the large numbers of magic items in Eberron, it only enhances the production of mundane goods. Am I wrong about this. The major difference is in the cheapness, and ready availability of magic items. There isn't a cheapness or ready availability of magic items in Eberron. It isn't like its the 2e Forgotten Realms or anything!!!
GothicDan 05-14-07, 02:35 PM	Magic is not always perfect. Spellcasters can be bluffed and beaten by more roguish guys, just look at fantasy litterature. Um, the fantasy literature I read typically has the spellcasters as the utmost powerful people, in general. And "not always perfect" does NOT equate to "the vast majority of high level spellcasters dying." That's almost the opposite.
AllisterH 05-14-07, 02:49 PM	In either case, it shouldn't really matter, for when it comes to wars and high body counts.... it's generally the experienced soldiers that survive. The body counts come from noobs making mistakes that the experienced soldiers already learned by watching their past buddies dying by them. I'm on the side that war breeds more experienced people, in all walks of life. It depends on the type of war though. I mean, if you were a poor schlub in the 1st WW and you were bogged down in the trenches of Belguim/France I don't think ANY experience would help since the typical action in that war seemed to be "RUSH the mortar fire". Similarly, in WWII, the pilots of the RAF and US bomber squadrons suffered a pretty high turnover especially in the beginning when there was still an effective Luftwaffe/Japanese air force.
Wenin 05-14-07, 03:28 PM	It depends on the type of war though. I mean, if you were a poor schlub in the 1st WW and you were bogged down in the trenches of Belguim/France I don't think ANY experience would help since the typical action in that war seemed to be "RUSH the mortar fire". Similarly, in WWII, the pilots of the RAF and US bomber squadrons suffered a pretty high turnover especially in the beginning when there was still an effective Luftwaffe/Japanese air force. There are always more factors to every scenario, but in general the more experienced soldier has a better chance of surviving a situation than a noob. Those noobs that do survive, become more experienced. =) This occurred in every war, especially in protracted wars, which the one in Eberron, lasting 100 years, would have been.
ClobberinTime 05-14-07, 04:31 PM	Nicely put. Did Keith Baker have Eberron floating around on the internet for the past two decades with a following before it won the contest? Does he still own the rights to the world or is it still a world by committee? Ok so now I know you guys are hitting the whacky juice and just making things up. First of all there was no internet in 1987 and earlier, The first realms material appeared in Dragon. Second, the FR is completely run by committee, and Ed doesn't own it and hasn't owned it for 20 years. Ask Ed about the Avatar crisis and how that came to pass sometime. Third, in terms of the Committee they have made huge changes, many capriciously, like naming the Galena mountains after what was it a city or someones daughter or something, or erasing a glacier and adding Damara, or adding on the Moonshaes. Fourth, Ed wrote his first realms short story when he was 12 or something about Mirt the money lender in like 1967, but since there wasn't really any D+D in 1967, there was no where to 'run the realms until like 1977. Some of the things 2nd edition did to FR canon still make me shudder, and are at the root of many of the senseless realmsism's we have today. I agree with you guys in feeling that Eberron lacks depth compared to FR, but that makes sense given the 100's of novels and 100's of campaign goodies published on the realms. Honestly I like the realms much better than Eberron, but picking up the Eberron campaign sourcebook really brought that into focus for me. i.e. can you identify good wine unless you have had bad wine? If the idea behind Eberron was to really make the PCs the heros, it definitely succeeded. Think about running the AoW in Eberron, and in FR and tell me which one you think fits more easily. To my mind it is definitely Eberron.
The Ubbergeek 05-14-07, 07:20 PM	SOme of those changes were needed or added nice things, much in facts. I am always irrited how it seems like non-Greenwood contributions to the realms are pushed aways - a move eerily like the 'Gygax-only' Greyhawk grognards.
Alac Luin 05-14-07, 08:06 PM	There isn't a cheapness or ready availability of magic items in Eberron. It isn't like its the 2e Forgotten Realms or anything!!! Actually, there is a cheapness and ready availability of magic items in Eberron. The Eberron CS re-wrote the magic item availability chart to reflect lower magic item prices/higher availability. See pages 90-91 of the Eberron CS, which can be summed up in this line. "In general, minor magic items are easier to find and purchase in Khorvair then described in the Dungeon Master Guide." Since the FR, in general, follows the DMG, this basically says that Eberron has a higher availability of magic items then the Realms. There is no note on high level magic items being higher price/harder to find. I'd need to compare the charts (which I can't, no 3.5 DMG) On another topic which I intended to get back to. Eberron CS pg 131 "This is a time when new heroes must arise to replace those slain in the Last War, <snip>" This appears to be the source of the idea "high level characters were all killed during the Last War." If this is a correct extrapolation or not can be debated. Nothing else I can find (well, I only looked for about five minutes) that would explaine the lack of higher level characters.
Wenin 05-14-07, 09:35 PM	Boy, someone is really defensive..... Ok so now I know you guys are hitting the whacky juice and just making things up. I'm really not interested in getting into any kind of *** for tat thing. I listed some stark differences between the two systems, you seem to agree that they exist. I'm not interested in talking about which campaign setting is better, because that is a personal choice. If you're already drinking a damn good glass of wine, why spend $$$ to see if a new brand is better? So I've made my choice.
Dark Wizard 05-14-07, 09:55 PM	It depends on the type of war though. I mean, if you were a poor schlub in the 1st WW and you were bogged down in the trenches of Belguim/France I don't think ANY experience would help since the typical action in that war seemed to be "RUSH the mortar fire". Similarly, in WWII, the pilots of the RAF and US bomber squadrons suffered a pretty high turnover especially in the beginning when there was still an effective Luftwaffe/Japanese air force. Though even in those wars numerous heavily decorated veterans survived. Many of the big name generals like Eisenhower and MacArthur survived. Even something near 10% of the total population of the world will survive an all out nuclear war according to some moderate estimates. So unless there is another factor involved, a few high level characters should have survived. And if they did, then all the arguments against FR's NPCs taking the glory away from the PCs appy to Eberron as well. Not to mention that statistically, there would be groups of equal power to the PCs with similar goals. So the idea that the PCs are the only ones around capable of doing anything and are of utmost importance to the setting is artificial and realistically not that different from FR. SOme of those changes were needed or added nice things, much in facts. I am always irrited how it seems like non-Greenwood contributions to the realms are pushed aways - a move eerily like the 'Gygax-only' Greyhawk grognards. Oddly I've noticed much of the opposite happening in all the talk of hating/removing/retconning/killing/hurting/humiliating/abusing Mystra, the Chosen, other good deities, NPC X, Y, or Z created by Greenwood, etc. On the other hand, most of the people who like Ed's stuff often deeply respect (or at least tolerate) the work of Elaine Cunningham, Steven Schend, Eric Boyd, George Krashos, Tom Costa, Jeff Grubb, Julia Martin, Kate Novak, R.A. Salvatore, Richard Baker, various other designers and authors (my apologies if I missed anyone). I've seen more fans of Eberron hanging on each and every one of Keith Baker's words (and for the most part only Keith Baker). This isn't entirely their fault as Eberron is a new setting and another designer may not have risen to prominence.
GothicDan 05-14-07, 11:01 PM	Oddly I've noticed much of the opposite happening in all the talk of hating/removing/retconning/killing/hurting/humiliating/abusing Mystra, the Chosen, other good deities, NPC X, Y, or Z created by Greenwood, etc. On the other hand, most of the people who like Ed's stuff often deeply respect (or at least tolerate) the work of Elaine Cunningham, Steven Schend, Eric Boyd, George Krashos, Tom Costa, Jeff Grubb, Julia Martin, Kate Novak, R.A. Salvatore, Richard Baker, various other designers and authors (my apologies if I missed anyone). Good point, Dark Wizard. I find myself most respecting and liking the work of those designers who keep Ed and his final say in mind - Eric Boyd, Krashos, Costa, Cunningham, etc. Ultimately, it's the people who love the setting itself, and the people who design it, that will decide it FR fails or lives for another 20 years, NOT the people who are calling for balance or 'logic' (in THEIR eyes) in every product.
The Ubbergeek 05-14-07, 11:09 PM	Balance and logic are however needed - yes, even if it's a game, and even if there is magic. If magic existed in our world, it would obey laws of nature, logic. And so, an artificial world should have also some logic. Some claim that it's one of Eberron's good point, a consistant setting who is logic in its inner working.
GothicDan 05-14-07, 11:10 PM	It needs internal logic and consistency - which FR has in abundance.
Wenin 05-15-07, 12:18 AM	Some claim that it's one of Eberron's good point, a consistant setting who is logic in its inner working. Does the Eberron setting take into account the impact that the rail system and airships would have on the setting? Just how widespread are they? Is there a limitation on their continued creation (lost magic)? If there isn't a limitation, does Eberron have magical refrigerators? Ovens? Hot water heaters? City waterworks? Fire hydrants? Household AC/Heat? Abundant magic can have a profound effect on a world, just as technology has on Earth within the last two hundred years. Is there a hubris backlash in Eberron's future (aka global warming)?
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 05-15-07, 09:06 AM	It needs internal logic and consistency - which FR has in abundance. Yeah becase a world whose magical and technological level are set in place not by the deeds of mortals but by the will of gods is oh so consistant and logical.
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 05-15-07, 09:12 AM	Does the Eberron setting take into account the impact that the rail system and airships would have on the setting? Just how widespread are they? Is there a limitation on their continued creation (lost magic)? If there isn't a limitation, does Eberron have magical refrigerators? Ovens? Hot water heaters? City waterworks? Fire hydrants? Household AC/Heat? Abundant magic can have a profound effect on a world, just as technology has on Earth within the last two hundred years. Is there a hubris backlash in Eberron's future (aka global warming)? A lot of these inovations are recent: Air ships were developed during the last years of the war. The Presence of Lightning rail s is acounted for as affects trade and one nation, the Gnomes of Zilargo have an ongoing industry making airships and rail carages. Its is also mentioned that the standard of living in the 5 nations is higher becase of readaly present magic. So far I am unaware of any baklash... Though it could be one explanation for the Morning, a magical catasorphy that destroyed one of the 5 nations.
Bolithio 05-15-07, 10:23 AM	Does the Eberron setting take into account the impact that the rail system and airships would have on the setting? Just how widespread are they? Is there a limitation on their continued creation (lost magic)? And further, how does this effect the economy. Does the train put the donkey/horse/cart/wagon industry at risk? Is there currently a lobby for these industries? If you think about it, the ramifications of this are real big. As more trains are constructed, there will be less demand for work animals, and the massive amounts of grain and forage land that is needed to support these animals. This will cause a big part of the economy to collapse, and put hundreds out of work. Trickle it down if you will: If the train becomes the convenient way to commute to the workplace, you will have more servant type workers available in the larger population centers than you did before. People from the country side who normally did real mundane jobs like pilling mud pies, will be able to travel to manors in the city. The wages will be higher in these places, so people will farm less and less. This will lessen the availability of resources though, like firewood, cattle etc... as the new generation strives to enter the cities. Now perhaps the cost of riding the train is currently to high for peasants. But im sure that soon you will be able to an econopass, or some kind of discounted rate for frequent travel into Sharn or whatever. And the bottom line is this, Personal forms of "magic" travel are sure to develop behind the mass transit of today. Anyone in Eberron should think ahead and construct any new roads with lots of width to account for the traffic of the future. ;)
Wenin 05-15-07, 12:20 PM	I was thinking of more far reaching effects. With a rail system comes the ability to move armies and supplies quickly. Orcs in the savage lands where these rails could be laid, would be non-existant. Settlers would be able to colonize more land as well. Rail system = more civilization/more settled lands
GothicDan 05-15-07, 12:28 PM	Yeah becase a world whose magical and technological level are set in place not by the deeds of mortals but by the will of gods is oh so consistant and logical. ... Yes, yes they are. I'm sorry if you were trying to be sarcastic. If you were, you failed miserably. Note how I said 'internal.' I don't care how it works in real life, technologically speaking, and I'm a physicist. As long as there's INTERNAL logic in a fantasy world, then that's all that matters. It would be ludicrous to assume that an alternate Prime Material World has the same physics (and thus, technological advancement) as our own. In a world where deities are very much real, and who control storms, happiness, plague, sadness, and wealth (or at least affect it), technology is just another facet of reality to be manipulated by supernatural forces. Whether you like that or not has no bearing on how logical or consistent it is.
Bolithio 05-15-07, 12:55 PM	Does the train in Eberron go from East to West? I was thinking of more far reaching effects. With a rail system comes the ability to move armies and supplies quickly. Orcs in the savage lands where these rails could be laid, would be non-existant. Settlers would be able to colonize more land as well. Rail system = more civilization/more settled lands Yes. Eberron will be serving spaghetti and bank robberies real quick at this rate. But seriously; back to who's planet is bigger.....
GothicDan 05-15-07, 01:02 PM	I am pretty sure it's Abeir-Toril. Or that planet with all of the Tarrasques...
MarkusTay63 05-15-07, 01:19 PM	Its not only the largest planet, but even in spelljammer it was the largest known crystal sphere in the entire universe. The Link (http://www.fortunecity.com/underworld/warcraft/146/index.html) FR is a MAN'S sphere. ;)
Alac Luin 05-15-07, 01:27 PM	And further, how does this effect the economy. Does the train put the donkey/horse/cart/wagon industry at risk? Is there currently a lobby for these industries? If you think about it, the ramifications of this are real big. First off, while the trains do allow transport across the continent, they are not so "expansive", it does not reach all the nations, so old fashioned cart and buggy is still in use extensively. Second, you cant really think of seperate donkey/horse/cart/wagon industries. Almost all of the "transportation of goods" is preformed by House Orien, and they own the rail system, so they don't really complain about themselves. Sure there are "individual caravan operators", but they have little pull politically. They have a hard enough time getting jobs as most people would rather use the stable House Orien. The biggest opposition to House Orien's rail is House Lyrandar's air ships, and they compete on a cost for service basis. As more trains are constructed, there will be less demand for work animals, and the massive amounts of grain and forage land that is needed to support these animals. This will cause a big part of the economy to collapse, and put hundreds out of work. The Economy of Eberon is maintained by the 12 Dragonmarked Houses. Since these houses maintain a virtual monopoly on various aspects of commerce, it is highly unlikely they will allow a widespread collapse of the economy. EDIT: Can the economy collapse in smaller areas?, sure. The people in control (Dragonmarked Houses) don't really care, as they have a much larger playing field then just one city or nation. An entire nation "disappeared", and the Dragon Marked Houses are still doing alright. :) I was thinking of more far reaching effects. With a rail system comes the ability to move armies and supplies quickly. Orcs in the savage lands where these rails could be laid, would be non-existant. Settlers would be able to colonize more land as well. Rail system = more civilization/more settled lands Actually, you may want to think in the line of Hobgoblins in the savage lands as opposed to orcs. At this point the rail does not go through the more "hostile" nations.
Wenin 05-15-07, 01:34 PM	Actually, you may want to think in the line of Hobgoblins in the savage lands as opposed to orcs. At this point the rail does not go through the more "hostile" nations. Wouldn't they build them towards the more hostile nations, for defense at first and then for claiming these lands as their own. Especially if they are dominated by monsterous creatures. Another question occurred to me..... what do the airships and rail systems, exist by binding elementals right? What do the elemental lords think of all this? Are they attempting to free their brethren?
GothicDan 05-15-07, 01:38 PM	Eberron is separate, completely, from the rest of the multiverse. Thus, the Elemental Lords have no access. Which makes me sad, because the Elemental Lords are like woah.
Wenin 05-15-07, 01:43 PM	Oh and the rail and airships wouldn't weaken the economy, it would strengthen it and broaden it. Just look to the United States as an example.
MarkusTay63 05-15-07, 01:44 PM	Don't worry Dan, they've noticed those huge 'holes' in their domains, and when they find out who stole them Eberron's gonna have a BIG problem. :P
The Ubbergeek 05-15-07, 01:46 PM	Well, if by lords, you means only the deities, yes. But the Archoelementals, the Princes and Princesses of Elements, they surely exist I bet.
GothicDan 05-15-07, 01:46 PM	Like divine pillars of REAL flame! Not that sissy silver flame. ;) I like to call it "Kossuth."
The Ubbergeek 05-15-07, 01:49 PM	Like divine pillars of REAL flame! Not that sissy silver flame. ;) I like to call it "Kossuth." Yeah, but the famous elemental princes of good and evil and all may exist, those guys are very much badasses in their own right too.
GothicDan 05-15-07, 01:52 PM	I doubt they do, since they exist on the Elemental Planes, which aren't present in the Eberron cosmology.
Alac Luin 05-15-07, 03:15 PM	Wouldn't they build them towards the more hostile nations, for defense at first and then for claiming these lands as their own. Especially if they are dominated by monsterous creatures. The rails are not being built by anyone with national interests. So military usage is not a primary concern. The Rail is built by private entities, they would be more concerned about their ability to defend the trains rather then letting a government using their assets for military use. Also, at this point in time, these monstrous nations are truly nations, recognized by the Treaty of Thornhold, not just "unclaimed land"
Wenin 05-15-07, 03:45 PM	Where are the railroads being built, in settled or unsettled lands? Are there any savage/unsettled lands in Eberron? There is an Orc/Goblinoid nation in Eberron? If so, cool.
Bolithio 05-15-07, 03:55 PM	1 - Are the trains being built East to West? 2 - Shouldnt this thread move to the Eberron zone??
Alac Luin 05-15-07, 03:57 PM	Where are the railroads being built, in settled or unsettled lands? It can be compared to the old west, a line joining on city to another. Many times going through unsettled areas. best I can do is give you this link... http://pages.videotron.com/sebby777/khorvaire_complete.jpg and say that the red lines represent the rail. Are there any savage/unsettled lands in Eberron? Yes, even if all the land is claimed by one nation or the other, this doesn't mean that it is all settled. I believe (and may be wrong) that the population density of Eberron is less then it is in Faerun in general. Similar to what would be considered Faerun's "the north" There is an Orc/Goblinoid nation in Eberron? If so, cool. Actually, more or less one of each. The orc nation has many humans and half-orcs. The Goblinoid nation is the most hostile.
The Ubbergeek 05-15-07, 04:03 PM	Yes, even if all the land is claimed by one nation or the other, this doesn't mean that it is all settled. I believe (and may be wrong) that the population density of Eberron is less then it is in Faerun in general. Similar to what would be considered Faerun's "the north" Xen'drink - a whole continent - is more or less wild zone in general. And dangerous quite.
Alac Luin 05-15-07, 04:05 PM	1 - Are the trains being built East to West? 2 - Shouldnt this thread move to the Eberron zone?? 1- see the link in my above post. 2- No, this thread is still about the difference between Eberron and Faerun from the view of a Realms fan. At this point its about gaining enough knowledge to ascertain what those differences might be. If anything, a member or two of the Eberron boards could be invited over to answer a few questions, but that typically doesn't end in a pretty manner.
Alac Luin 05-15-07, 04:08 PM	Xen'drink - a whole continent - is more or less wild zone in general. And dangerous quite. But the rail system doesn't travel Xen'drik.;) This is a true statement, taking Eberron as a whole as opposed to my limited focus on the rail system.
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 05-15-07, 04:24 PM	If anything, a member or two of the Eberron boards could be invited over to answer a few questions, but that typically doesn't end in a pretty manner. Im an Eberron fan, Im also a Grey box Second Edittion Forgoten Realms walker, but ask away, I will try and answer, from the vantage of having run several long running Eberon Campens, any questions.
Francius 05-15-07, 04:49 PM	The Forgotten Realms are the grateful dead It is out of topic to use the word "dead" and the Forgotten Realms in the same phrase. ;) I 'd say I haven't seen anything similar to the Realms that's more alive and breathing. :cool: Ehm, some light about "the grateful dead?" :confused: The rail and airships wouldn't weaken the economy, it would strengthen it and broaden it. Just look to the United States as an example. With this,I agree. But let us get back to some more serious issues that strangely have not been mentioned before. Is Eberron a robot land full of trains?
Francius 05-15-07, 04:58 PM	I 've searched a bit so... Are the grateful dead that acid-rock band that was born in the 60s?
Bolithio 05-15-07, 05:01 PM	Yes they are.....
Bolithio 05-15-07, 05:07 PM	I Ehm, some light about "the grateful dead?" :confused: Years and years after the 60's; thousands and thousands of hippies toured around with the Grateful Dead all across the States. Very much like gypsies, they made their living selling veggie burritos, hemp jewelry and clothes, and other crafty things. Mostly in converted school buses and VW vans. Jerry Garcia Died in 1995 and that was that. (Dont ask me how I know so much about this)
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 05-15-07, 05:07 PM	But let us get back to some more serious issues that strangely have not been mentioned before. Is Eberron a robot land full of trains? Robots: You mean the Warforged? They are not Robots any more than the Flesh golum in Elminsters tower was a Robot. What they are is Golem developed during a centuary of warfare, to be precice the last in a serise of variants. They were made as soldiers, adaptable and tireless with the capacity to learn as other races. They have some of the streghts of Constructs ( Dont sleep, eat or breathe, 25% forticication) and some of the weaknesses (No natural healing, cure spells have half effect) as of the end of the war there meant to be free, but face predudace. They are not Robots. Trains: The Lighning Rail links moastly majour citys only. The Trains themselves are powered by bound Elementals and the network is run and maintaned by one of the Dragon Marked houses, Houce Orien whose members carry the mark of passage. Building the Network took 3 Groups, House Cannith (Mark of making) built the carages and the Conductor stones that make the lines. The Gnomes of Zilargo bind elementals into the Carages, and Finalty houce Orien drive them as there mark makes the bound elementals easyer to controll. Esablishing the network was a signifigant acomplishment in the days before the war when the main continent was united under one crown. Though not every nation on Khorvare was conected, rather the 5 Nations + Zilargo had conections, the moast prosperous and imprtant of the kingdoms.
Bolithio 05-15-07, 05:12 PM	Oh and the rail and airships wouldn't weaken the economy, it would strengthen it and broaden it. Just look to the United States as an example. This is true. I was trying to say that, the fact that there are Trains, and that undoubtedly there will be more trains in the future - due to how much they will improve certain sectors of the economy, that other economies will be forced to change. As result you will have a setting that will feel much different than the traditional fantasy setting, FR.
Francius 05-15-07, 05:20 PM	Robots: You mean the Warforged? They are not Robots any more than the Flesh golum in Elminsters tower was a Robot. What they are is Golem developed during a centuary of warfare, to be precice the last in a serise of variants. They were made as soldiers, adaptable and tireless with the capacity to learn as other races. They have some of the streghts of Constructs ( Dont sleep, eat or breathe, 25% forticication) and some of the weaknesses (No natural healing, cure spells have half effect) as of the end of the war there meant to be free, but face predudace. They are not Robots. I know perfectly what the Warforged are, how they came to creation and their various abilities. They are partly robots,(because they are artificially created and are not natural) but not for their entire length (they have free will and are able to think without being programmable for that activity). That name (i.e. robot) would be reductive to them. My above comment was just a sarcastic line about the number of times the issue that Eberron is full of "constructs" and magical "trains" has been mentioned in these kind of comparisons between it and the Forgotten Realms. Trains: The Lighning Rail links moastly majour citys only. The Trains themselves are powered by bound Elementals and the network is run and maintaned by one of the Dragon Marked houses, Houce Orien whose members carry the mark of passage. Building the Network took 3 Groups, House Cannith (Mark of making) built the carages and the Conductor stones that make the lines. The Gnomes of Zilargo bind elementals into the Carages, and Finalty houce Orien drive them as there mark makes the bound elementals easyer to controll. Esablishing the network was a signifigant acomplishment in the days before the war when the main continent was united under one crown. Though not every nation on Khorvare was conected, rather the 5 Nations + Zilargo had conections, the moast prosperous and imprtant of the kingdoms. Yes, I know about the train and its network too. I actually possess quite some material about the Eberron world and have read it through. It just failed to draw my attention as a whole setting, but some of the material I found inside was nice .
Francius 05-15-07, 05:25 PM	Years and years after the 60's; thousands and thousands of hippies toured around with the Grateful Dead all across the States. Very much like gypsies, they made their living selling veggie burritos, hemp jewelry and clothes, and other crafty things. Mostly in converted school buses and VW vans. Jerry Garcia Died in 1995 and that was that. (Dont ask me how I know so much about this) Let me guess: Die hard rock-fan with woodstock experience? As for me, the rock-metal are genres I always failed to appreciate but I respect their vast history and cultures they brought along since I have many friends involved with that kind of music for innumerable years.
Bolithio 05-15-07, 05:34 PM	That brings up another good point. What about the music in Eberron or FR? Are there Gods in Eberron that encourage art and music to the same extent that the FR pantheons do?
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 05-15-07, 05:38 PM	Not as such, but they do have Houce Pharlani/Thurani. Dragonmarked houses whose comercal intrests are the arts, acting, music and so on. As a rule religion has less impact on Eberron than Forgotten realms, there is no concrete proof of devinity, no gods walking the land, and so theology is more like RL.
Francius 05-15-07, 05:41 PM	Not as such, but they do have Houce Pharlani/Thurani. Dragonmarked houses whose comercal intrests are the arts, acting, music and so on. Some opera theaters/houses you should have over at the Sharn city.
Wenin 05-15-07, 07:24 PM	Is there anything preventing small towns to crop up along the rail system and then grow into larger towns if not cities? Francius, yes I meant the band "The Grateful Dead". =)
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 05-15-07, 07:35 PM	Not as such, but the treatey of Thronehold was only a few years ago so the peace is still new, populations very low, Id figure unless some Cyran refuges got permission to found a town yuo wont see that kind of colonisation for a generation or so.
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 05-15-07, 07:37 PM	Some opera theaters/houses you should have over at the Sharn city. Indeed, espechaly as Sharn is the main enclave of House Pharlani, I tend to portray it as a very cultured city when I DM, at least in the more wealthy areas.
GothicDan 05-15-07, 11:00 PM	Pft. A shabby stand-in for Sigil, I say. ;)
The Ubbergeek 05-16-07, 12:47 AM	It's a very impressive, daunting, and intimidating city, It's on par with Sigil, Greyhawk city and Waterdeep in it's own aspect as a fantasy city.
GothicDan 05-16-07, 01:35 AM	Maybe. I would consider Sigil a cut above the rest of the Prime metropolises, still - even above Waterdeep, Greyhawk City, and the like.
The Ubbergeek 05-16-07, 01:38 AM	Sharn felt a bit like a cross of Gotham city, with some bladerunner, fifth element and all mixed in, and fantasy-fied. It'd grandiose, but also dark at the same time... WOTC, you HAVE to hire Moebius to make you art for you!
Bluenose 05-16-07, 10:28 AM	Is there anything preventing small towns to crop up along the rail system and then grow into larger towns if not cities? I suspect that's not too likely to happen. It may, but one reason some towns exist is that they started as refuelling stations for the trains. A steam locomotive needs lots of water and coal, and has only a limited amount of space to store them. So you have to have regular refuelling stops along a route. Now if the train is going to stop at a place for a while, passengers may take the opportunity to get off to stretch their legs. So an enterprising merchant sets up a shop to sell things to them, local residents start using the shop, more get built, people move into the area, bingo a new town exists. I don't think it works the same way in Eberron as the elementals don't need refuelling, so there's less reason for trains to stop unless there's an existing town - in which case it may well have a lightning rail station. Indeed, espechaly as Sharn is the main enclave of House Pharlani, I tend to portray it as a very cultured city when I DM, at least in the more wealthy areas. Interestingly, that isn't at all the way my DM ran it. That may be a function of the PCs, but in our Sharn culture was something you scraped off your food.:)
Alac Luin 05-16-07, 10:42 AM	I suspect that's not too likely to happen. It may, but one reason some towns exist is that they started as refuelling stations for the trains. <snip> I don't think it works the same way in Eberron as the elementals don't need refuelling, so there's less reason for trains to stop unless there's an existing town - in which case it may well have a lightning rail station. In agreement here. Nothing will really stop someone from founding a town along the rail system. Nothing says that the train will stop there :) Interestingly, that isn't at all the way my DM ran it. That may be a function of the PCs, but in our Sharn culture was something you scraped off your food.:) Depends on which part of Sharn you are in. The Sharn supplement is rather good about explaining which area of the city is High Culture and which are food culture :)
XHereticX 05-18-07, 07:51 PM	Want a interesting city? Check out Monte Cook's Ptolus. I swear its sourcebook is the size of all three core books combined!
GothicDan 05-18-07, 07:53 PM	That's so hot. Nnf.
XHereticX 05-18-07, 08:03 PM	The Waterdeep sourcebook could have been better though, but it was ok.
GothicDan 05-18-07, 08:04 PM	That can be said pretty much about anything. I'd like a 1,000 page book on Waterdeep. Maybe two. Often 'less is more,' but when it comes to books about cities and the like, I think more is more.
XHereticX 05-18-07, 08:06 PM	That can be said pretty much about anything. I'd like a 1,000 page book on Waterdeep. Maybe two. Often 'less is more,' but when it comes to books about cities and the like, I think more is more. Agreed, yeah, Ptolus is about that size. There is literally a campaign seed in every house in that city.
GothicDan 05-18-07, 08:08 PM	That's nuts. I wish I had the money to buy it.
XHereticX 05-18-07, 08:39 PM	That's nuts. I wish I had the money to buy it. One of my friends got it for 10 bucks. Here is more info http://www.ptolus.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?ptolus
GothicDan 05-18-07, 09:01 PM	10 bucks is a lot to me right now... But thanks, it's good to know if I do manage to scrape up extra money, I might have a chance of getting it. ;)
Old Sage 05-18-07, 09:20 PM	Ptolus is a fantastic source -- I've been slowly reading through ALL the material [and this includes the additional hundreds of pages contained on the CD that comes with the book] since its release and I'm still going. There's just so much to read and learn about...
XHereticX 05-18-07, 09:23 PM	Ptolus is a fantastic source -- I've been slowly reading through ALL the material [and this includes the additional hundreds of pages contained on the CD that comes with the book] since its release and I'm still going. There's just so much to read and learn about... That is what my friends said too. Wow, Monte Cook really outdid himself on that one. Ptolus is possible the most detailed and rich setting out there right now. Now if someone did Waterdeep like that...wow...
MarkusTay63 05-18-07, 10:04 PM	Sharn felt a bit like a cross of Gotham city, with some bladerunner, fifth element and all mixed in, and fantasy-fied. It'd grandiose, but also dark at the same time... WOTC, you HAVE to hire Moebius to make you art for you!Yeah, I rather like Sharn, and have been trying to find somewhere where it would 'fit' in FR. Halrua is the logical choice on the surface (no pun intended), but considering whats UNDER Sharn kind of throws that right out the window. I was thinking maybe at the mouth of the Tun River on the Dragonmere, because of the history of ancient Goblin Kingdoms in the region, but that doesn't feel right either. Then there's the Vilhon reach, which has that 'dark' feel to it, which I like. Perhaps play it as the sole Jamdath survivor-state? No matter what, it just doesn't feel like FR, no matter how you slice it. Its a shame, because I like it so much better then waterdeep. The undercity makes a hell of a lot more sense then undermountain (although it needs a Halaster ;) ). Gotham City goes Metropolis, with magic and X-man style Morlock cultures. I just love the fact that wealthy snobs live high above the commoners, and the dredges live 'in the bowls'; it's just so much more 'fantastical' then most of the cities we see. Agreed, yeah, Ptolus is about that size. There is literally a campaign seed in every house in that city.Thats hot, I just checked it out. It reminds me of a city version of AEG's World's largest Dungeon. Basically, you can run an entire campaign without ever leaving the city. So many products, so little coin... :(
XHereticX 05-18-07, 10:05 PM	Yeah, I rather like Sharn, and have been trying to find somewhere where it would 'fit' in FR. Halrua is the logical choice on the surface (no pun intended), but considering whats UNDER Sharn kind of throws that right out the window. I was thinking maybe at the mouth of the Tun River on the Dragonmere, because of the history of ancient Goblin Kingdoms in the region, but that doesn't feel right either. Then there's the Vilhon reach, which has that 'dark' feel to it, which I like. Perhaps play it as the sole Jamdath survivor-state? No matter what, it just doesn't feel like FR, no matter how you slice it. Its a shame, because I like it so much better then waterdeep. The undercity makes a hell of a lot more sense then undermountain (although it needs a Halaster ;) ). Gotham City goes Metropolis, with magic and X-man style Morlock cultures. I just love the fact that wealthy snobs live high above the commoners, and the dredges live 'in the bowls'; it's just so much more 'fantastical' then most of the cities we see. Thats hot, I just checked it out. It reminds me of a city version of AEG's World's largest Dungeon. Basically, you can run an entire campaign without ever leaving the city. So many products, so little coin... :( They also made a supplement called World's Largest City.
Francius 05-19-07, 03:38 PM	I possess and have read the Sharn:City of towers book and I have to admit I dug into every single page of the Eberron grand city sourcebook. The fact is that I find Sharn's bulding design grotesque and unfinessed, rather gargantuan without a refined and clear identity and engineeringly impossible for a world in medieval times (but hey, this is fantasy). To add, the fact that the vast majority of the structures in the city are so high, just gives the place a feeling of depression for the rest of the buildings rising not so tall from the soil: like a modern day metropolis and (again) out of place in a fantasy medieval world. I also despise the fact that it was built upon a once great (now lost) goblin(:rolleyes:) kingdom. Halruaa's cities and architecture still remain the grandiest, more stylish, better designed and impressively well realized with a Renaissance lay out places I've ever visisted within a fantasy world - followed by Silverymoon.
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 05-19-07, 04:12 PM	Some of us look to the sky... Others just say that gives them a crick in the neck. (Oh btw Francius, where is the quite in your sig from? )
Francius 05-19-07, 04:25 PM	Some of us look to the sky, others just can't see it because it's blocked by skyscrapers...
GothicDan 05-19-07, 06:59 PM	Gotham City goes Metropolis, with magic and X-man style Morlock cultures. I just love the fact that wealthy snobs live high above the commoners, and the dredges live 'in the bowls'; it's just so much more 'fantastical' then most of the cities we see. ... Wasn't that exactly how a city was in one of the Star Wars video games? And it's just a variation of Low Netheril vs. High Netheril.
The Ubbergeek 05-19-07, 07:03 PM	... Wasn't that exactly how a city was in one of the Star Wars video games? And it's just a variation of Low Netheril vs. High Netheril. Not really, Dan - Netheril was more like Zeal of the SNES classic rpg Chrono Trigger. A floating city, flying abover the low commoners's settlings.... Sharn is more COruscant - the world-city.
GothicDan 05-19-07, 07:05 PM	... So like I said, it's a variation on High Netheril vs. Low Netheril. VARIATION, not the same thing. And is Coruscant the city where the gangs and such live in the lowest areas of the city? I think the game I'm thinking of was Knights of the Old Republic I?
Dark Wizard 05-19-07, 07:12 PM	Not really, Dan - Netheril was more like Zeal of the SNES classic rpg Chrono Trigger. A floating city, flying abover the low commoners's settlings.... Sharn is more COruscant - the world-city. But as far as I can gather, Sharn is no where near world-spanning and Coruscant doesn't seem to emphasis the class division, at least not in any of the movies. Coruscant is itself a borrowed concept from Asimov's Empire/Foundation series (possibly amongst other similar inspirations), Trantor - world-city capital and throneworld of the Galactic Empire, or some such. ;)
GothicDan 05-19-07, 07:21 PM	I really should read some Aasimov...
The Ubbergeek 05-19-07, 07:44 PM	But as far as I can gather, Sharn is no where near world-spanning and Coruscant doesn't seem to emphasis the class division, at least not in any of the movies. Coruscant is itself a borrowed concept from Asimov's Empire/Foundation series (possibly amongst other similar inspirations), Trantor - world-city capital and throneworld of the Galactic Empire, or some such. ;) Yes, indeed, Sharn is not world-sized, BUT both Sharn and Coruscent have the 'height piles' way - the city is litteraly growing on itself in height, pilled layers by layers. You have an underground, a ground level, and ubertall buildings.... Hence my comparaison. Both are one huge microscosm - you could pass your life there and never see even but a portion of it. (Not that I don't like the High/Low town idea of Netheril and Zeal, on the opposite)
Alediran 05-19-07, 07:46 PM	... So like I said, it's a variation on High Netheril vs. Low Netheril. VARIATION, not the same thing. And is Coruscant the city where the gangs and such live in the lowest areas of the city? I think the game I'm thinking of was Knights of the Old Republic I? You are thinking about Taris. Good game KotoR. Loved the scene when you first met Malak, it gave me a shock.
XHereticX 05-19-07, 08:38 PM	I really should read some Aasimov... I read Foundation, very hard to understand but I got the main gist of it. The Dune series is similar.
GothicDan 05-19-07, 09:40 PM	Dune is love.
XHereticX 05-19-07, 10:49 PM	Dune is love. I am currently reading Children of Dune and am actually beginning to understand the series better. And you obviously know where my quote came from;)
Dark Wizard 05-19-07, 11:03 PM	Dune is very quotable.
GothicDan 05-19-07, 11:04 PM	Litany Against Fear for the win.
MarkusTay63 05-19-07, 11:26 PM	Dune is love.If you loved Dune, you will love Asimov. Start with the three robot novels, they are 'lighter' reading, and excellent, and then move on to the Foundation. You don't need to read any of his 'galactic period' stuff, which he wrote in the 50's, and a lot of the concepts have been 'disproven' (like 'space currents'). Those books take place between the robot stories and the Foundation ones, so I went back and read them later for completeness. The man did an amazing thing. He started out writing short fiction on many unrelated SF topics, and by the end of his career he linked them all together into one huge mega-story, that spans all of time. Simply amazing. And besides, you need to read the real story after that Will Smith movie. Nothing against Will, he's the man, but the movie had almost nothing to do with the book. Towards the end of the Foundation novels a group goes looking for 'Mythical Earth', a planet said to be the homeworld where the millions of inhadited worlds originally came from. The only thing you might not like Dan; only HUMANS in Asimov's Universe. But Trantor is Roxxors, Coruscant is a wanna-be. ;) Did George Lucas rip-off all of his worlds? :confused:
XHereticX 05-19-07, 11:28 PM	If you loved Dune, you will love Asimov. Start with the three robot novels, they are 'lighter' reading, and excellent, and then move on to the Foundation. You don't need to read any of his 'galactic period' stuff, which he wrote in the 50's, and a lot of the concepts have been 'disproven' (like 'space currents'). Those books take place between the robot stories and the Foundation ones, so I went back and read them later for completeness. The man did an amazing thing. He started out writing short fiction on many unrelated SF topics, and by the end of his career he linked them all together into one huge mega-story, that spans all of time. Simply amazing. And besides, you need to read the real story after that Will Smith movie. Nothing against Will, he's the man, but the movie had almost nothing to do with the book. Towards the end of the Foundation novels a group goes looking for 'Mythical Earth', a planet said to be the homeworld where the millions of inhadited worlds originally came from. The only thing you might not like Dan; only HUMANS in Asimov's Universe. But Trantor is Roxxors, Coruscant is a wanna-be. ;) Did George Lucas rip-off all of his worlds? :confused: I am planning to after I finish all the dune books. Oh, did anyone read Ender's Game? I loved it, but speaker of the dead wasen't that great.
GothicDan 05-19-07, 11:31 PM	I definitely will read Aasimov. I actually have a few that my grandfather gave to me! Awesome German Chemist/Physicist grandfathers... And I LOVED Ender's Game. I have Ender's Shadow and Speaker for the Dead, but haven't read either yet.
XHereticX 05-19-07, 11:32 PM	I definitely will read Aasimov. I actually have a few that my grandfather gave to me! Awesome German Chemist/Physicist grandfathers... And I LOVED Ender's Game. I have Ender's Shadow and Speaker for the Dead, but haven't read either yet. Seriously, when ender wiggens talks to you, you just get pwned.
GothicDan 05-19-07, 11:34 PM	It was one of the few books that actually had a twist in it that I WASN'T expecting, too. I've been toying with the idea of doing a Sci-Fi/Fantasy world (eventually novel, maybe I'll start off writing short stories), instead of a straight out fantasy one. Or one that has magic so advanced it just seems like science... More Dune-like than Star Wars.
XHereticX 05-19-07, 11:38 PM	It was one of the few books that actually had a twist in it that I WASN'T expecting, too. I've been toying with the idea of doing a Sci-Fi/Fantasy world (eventually novel, maybe I'll start off writing short stories), instead of a straight out fantasy one. Or one that has magic so advanced it just seems like science... More Dune-like than Star Wars. Never been the biggest fan of sci-fi/fantasy crosses, but if you do, you might want to explore WH 40k a little bit more;) And the game being the actualy battle....never saw that coming...I usually see those things too
MarkusTay63 05-20-07, 01:59 PM	It was one of the few books that actually had a twist in it that I WASN'T expecting, too. I've been toying with the idea of doing a Sci-Fi/Fantasy world (eventually novel, maybe I'll start off writing short stories), instead of a straight out fantasy one. Or one that has magic so advanced it just seems like science... More Dune-like than Star Wars.Dan, if you like that sort of thing, you really MUST read Dying Earth. The magic is actually some ancient psuedo-science of memorizing matrixes that can manipulate reality. By the time of the novels though, all the science is lost. :D Also, I HIGHLY reccomend the Well of Souls novels by Jack Chalker. Its another SciFi series that contains magic, and is both highly plausible and entertaining. Start with Midnight at the well of Souls. You'll really like Nathan Brazil, the Wandering Jew. I can't say more, but lets just say a series really CAN'T get anymore epic then this. Also, another incredible magic/SciFi novel, and considered one of the all-time classics in cross-genre - Fred Saberhagan's Empire of the East, the ONLY book I have ever read FOUR times, and am looking forward to reading again soon.
GothicDan 05-20-07, 02:08 PM	Thanks, Markus. Make me spend MORE money. Sigh! I actually looked for Dying Earth in B&N recently.. Nothing. :(
Dark Wizard 05-20-07, 02:25 PM	Thanks, Markus. Make me spend MORE money. Sigh! I actually looked for Dying Earth in B&N recently.. Nothing. :( Ah, the original inspiration for the D&D magic system. I recently purchased the omnibus edition at B&N with (I think) the original four Dying Earth novels collected together. The one with the overly sci-fi cover. It's a relatively recent reprinting, it should be around. Demand your right to fiction!
Faraer 05-20-07, 02:28 PM	That would be the Orb Tales of the Dying Earth? Vance's magic inspired both Realms and D&D magic, independently, one of the reasons the original D&Dization of the Realms in the 1970s was fairly easy.
GothicDan 05-20-07, 02:34 PM	That's what Markus was referring to, indeed. And now that I know it's specifically a Realms inspiration, I want to read it even more. Blast you, B&N. I'll have to be like, "My friend online was able to get it! I demand similar satisfaction!" And then make it clear I wasn't referring to sex.
XHereticX 05-20-07, 03:16 PM	Ah, the original inspiration for the D&D magic system. I recently purchased the omnibus edition at B&N with (I think) the original four Dying Earth novels collected together. The one with the overly sci-fi cover. It's a relatively recent reprinting, it should be around. Demand your right to fiction! is that one of Jack Vance's novels? It is his books that served as an inspiration for the whole D&D "fire and forget" system in magic. I was thinking about checking him out.
ClobberinTime 05-20-07, 10:25 PM	Dune is great, I need to go back through them. If you love the baroque Gene Wolfe's Shadow of the Torturer is the most Baroque series ever. Assimov is a great read too, I liked Orson Scott Card's series on the planet that had the computer that gave people visions. I'm blanking on the name right now. The ender stuff was just too Luke Skywalker for me though. Also for all the scientists out there David Brin is eggcellent too.
MarkusTay63 05-21-07, 12:41 AM	Dune is great, I need to go back through them. If you love the baroque Gene Wolfe's Shadow of the Torturer is the most Baroque series ever.Dude, that series rocked as well! Ever since I read it I have 'fuligen capes' in my game. Of course, they are just like drow capes (Piwafwi), but at least surface dwellers can get them more readily. I used to have a Torturer's guild in my GH campaign as well, I really should 'port' it over to FR. :D Dan - Your reading list is growing. ;) Seriouosly though, go with Empire of the East AFTER Dying Earth. They are both one-shots, not series (although there other books set on 'dying earth). I liked Robert Silverberg's Majipoor novels as well, another good example of Fantasy posing as SciFi. Although not as action-packed as the others mentioned, the grand setting Mr. Silverberg creates is extremely vivid and well thought out. I would only reccomend them for someone who doesn't mind novels that 'drag' in order to build back-drop, because the action is far and few between.
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 05-21-07, 07:54 AM	Dune is great, I need to go back through them. If you love the baroque Gene Wolfe's Shadow of the Torturer is the most Baroque series ever. 2 of the finest novel serise Ive had plesure to read. (Liet Kynes's views on ecology inspired me towards my curent work in Geosiences). And Torturer books are something I return to in the dark days of winter eager for there ornate gloom. Have you tried David Zindell's Requem for **** Sapiens? far future SF with the same baroque feel and some intreststing phiosphical debates. Edit: Blasted laguge filter not leting the laten term for modern man though.
GothicDan 05-21-07, 08:06 AM	So many books...
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 05-21-07, 09:03 AM	'So little time' as the quote goes. Well I'll make ot worse with another recomedation. Fritz Leiblers Lankmar books, they've probibly had every bit as much influence on D&D as Jack Vance, and the tale of the Urbane Grey Mouser and the Norther barbarian Farahd (sp?) is a classic.
Alediran 05-21-07, 09:52 AM	Ahhhhhhrghhhhhhhh, too many books to read and I don't have time, I'm still in the first quarter of the Count of Montecristo and then it's the Portrait of Dorian Grey. After that I have two scientific divulgation books (The Vengance of Gaia and Indigo Children)
Khaelieth 05-21-07, 10:02 AM	Dante's Divine Comedy ftw.
Dexter_Blacktyde 05-21-07, 11:06 AM	'So little time' as the quote goes. Well I'll make ot worse with another recomedation. Fritz Leiblers Lankmar books, they've probibly had every bit as much influence on D&D as Jack Vance, and the tale of the Urbane Grey Mouser and the Norther barbarian Farahd (sp?) is a classic. It's Fafhrd :cool: DB
MarkusTay63 05-21-07, 01:03 PM	Believe it or not, I have never read ANY Fafhrd and the grey Mouser. I bought all of the old Lankmar stuff for D&D, but the write-ups in 1e Deities & Demigods for that world left me with the feeling its very childish. Edit: Blasted laguge filter not leting the laten term for modern man though.Do what I do, just put a single letter in Bold and the filters miss it. ;) Hope I don't get in trouble for that, but its really irritating when this board won't even let you post ****** off for some crazy reason. In Great Britain, that term is used to describe being drunk. I can understand not wanting their word for ciggarette, however..... :rolleyes:
GothicDan 05-21-07, 02:12 PM	Bah, the Gray Mouser... I hate rogues. ;) I have plenty of time. Just not nearly plenty of money...
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 05-21-07, 03:03 PM	Hope I don't get in trouble for that, but its really irritating when this board won't even let you post ****** off for some crazy reason. In Great Britain, that term is used to describe being drunk. I can understand not wanting their word for ciggarette, however..... :rolleyes: As a fello Brit I hear you, its about time we reminded these Dam Yankies why they call it english ;)
GothicDan 05-21-07, 03:06 PM	I'd rather speak German, myself. Because I'm all <3 Germany.
Alac Luin 05-21-07, 05:01 PM	As a fello Brit I hear you, its about time we reminded these Dam Yankies why they call it english ;) I try to call it American myself, it's different enough and hey, we deserve our own language:D .
GothicDan 05-21-07, 05:14 PM	No we don't. We can barely decide on a single national language.
Dexter_Blacktyde 05-21-07, 05:17 PM	I'd rather speak German, myself. Because I'm all <3 Germany. Why? Because of the mayor of Berlin? ;) DB
GothicDan 05-21-07, 05:20 PM	Haha. One reason. ;)
Alac Luin 05-21-07, 05:56 PM	No we don't. We can barely decide on a single national language. If it was called "american" it would be easier to accept as a national language. At least we aren't as conflicted as Canadians on this matter. ;) (No offense to Canadians intended, if any offense is taken by reading to much into this, I am sorry.)
Alediran 05-21-07, 06:06 PM	First, it shouldn't be called American, because it would imply that from Mexico to to Argentina we speak deformed USA english, and we don't, most speak countries speak Spanish, one country speaks Portugese and others speak French. At least it should be called Statesian like many in Argentina say that we speak argentinian.
ClobberinTime 05-22-07, 08:45 PM	Personally my bet is that the Conan books impacted D+D the most besides Tolkien... I at least know they impacted Ed. Also you have to figure since we were the first set of european colonies in the americas to get our independence that we just took the name americans up first. Kind of hard to say we miss spoke about ourselves though. At the time it was just giving name to what people had already realized, i.e. we were no longer europeans.
GothicDan 05-22-07, 09:08 PM	I was looking at a D&D inspiration site recently... And Tolkien turned up surprisingly rarely. There was another novel... Three Lions and Three Roses? Something like that... Which came BEFORE Tolkien, which apparently inspired a lot of D&D in general. Also, The Worm Ouroboros came before Tolkien... It feels a lot more Realmsian to me, sometimes, too, than Tolkien.
BrennonGoldeye 05-22-07, 09:09 PM	Dan, have you ever heard of charging at windmills? Of course you have. :D
Faraer 05-22-07, 09:21 PM	Personally my bet is that the Conan books impacted D+D the most besides Tolkien...Gary Gygax wrote in the DMG that 'The most immediate influences upon AD&D were probably de Camp & Pratt, REH, Fritz Leiber, Jack Vance, HPL, and A. Merritt'. Gary took halflings, treants, type VI demons, and a few other things from The Lord of the Rings, as a gesture to its many readers, but his sensibility is miles away from Tolkien, who was not a major direct influence on the original D&D game, though he was on many of its later contributors.Believe it or not, I have never read ANY Fafhrd and the grey Mouser. I bought all of the old Lankmar stuff for D&D, but the write-ups in 1e Deities & Demigods for that world left me with the feeling its very childish.It isn't.
ClobberinTime 05-22-07, 09:56 PM	Well looks like we managed to cover all the bases without pulling out our old 1st Edition DMGs, mine is held together with duct tape. It makes sense though Gary Gygax himself seems more like mister hack and slash than mr. high fantasy. Mmm hack and slash... here is a toast to the good old days: i.e. never having a character live more than 4 months or making it above 6th level.
GothicDan 05-22-07, 10:57 PM	Aha! What I was thinking of was "Three Hearts and Three Lions" by Poul Anderson. I may have to pick it up.
Faraer 05-22-07, 11:03 PM	Lions.
GothicDan 05-22-07, 11:06 PM	I fail again. I looked it up and my brain was stuck on roses, for some reason, even though I had that half right in the first place. Thanks for watching out for that, Faraer.
Alediran 05-23-07, 01:10 PM	Dan, have you ever heard of charging at windmills? Of course you have. :D El Quijote de la Mancha by Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra.
BrennonGoldeye 05-23-07, 01:27 PM	El Quijote de la Mancha by Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra. :clap: :clap: :clap: Hey, wait a minute, you can't answer Alediran. You have cultural foreknowledge. ;)
Alediran 05-23-07, 01:30 PM	:clap: :clap: :clap: Hey, wait a minute, you can't answer Alediran. You have cultural foreknowledge. ;) It's like I wouldn't know who Hamlet or Romeo and Juliette are. Cervantes is the "Shakespear" for spanish talking people. They even died the same day. El Quijote is a world wide icon.
GothicDan 05-23-07, 01:41 PM	The Knight of the Woeful Countenance = AWESOME TITLE.
MarkusTay63 05-23-07, 06:39 PM	But don't get confused between D&D and FR. Core Elves, which are the closest thing to Gygax's original vision, are smaller and more other-worldly then FR's. In fact, if I recall correctly, Elves were very rare in 1e GH, and only came from a single reclusive Elven Kingdom, that did not deal with outsiders or let others in. That changed later on in 2e, and then moreso with 3e/core, but they are still far closer to the folklore 'Elves' then FR's. Realms Elves appear, to me anyway, to be VERY Tolkienesque, right down to the 'retreat into the west'. In The Hobbit the Elves seemed more fantastical like they should be, but then they became too human later on in LotR. Thats the problem I see with Realms Elves, they are NOT different enough from humans, aside for the pointy ears and long lifespans. Eberron, on the other hand, goes out of its way to make them different. I like what they did to the 'Dark Elves', but I don't really care for how the ones on the mainland were handled. I guess when I think of Elves, I'm really thinking 'Fey'. It should be something magical when a human first meets an Elf, not just a set of ability modifiers. "Yes sam... that's an Elf" ;)
The Ubbergeek 05-23-07, 07:20 PM	The problem is that for many, elves=tolkienesque elves. -_-; So, every time someone try to make something different, there is someone screaming 'not elves!'. Gee, the elves are fine as it is, it's not LOTR and they are not less elven. In D&D elf=/=fey, and thankfully so. They are not to be a race any really different from the others on the aspect of being mortal. Heck, I like Shadowrun who shook the Tolkien-fetish crowd upside down.
GothicDan 05-23-07, 09:32 PM	Ubbergeek, just because someone likes archetypal Elves does NOT mean they are Tolkien-esque. Tolkien drew on numerous cultures and traditions that were much older than his own work. Claiming that such Elves are "Tolkien-esque" is a blatant sign of ignorance and deprecation of older mythology and folklore. I wasn't a big fan of the way that Shadowrun did the races. They just 'look different,' basically, and have little culture actually on their own. That's incredibly boring to me. When I played it, I made a Norse magician Elf to try to recapture some of their more mythological significance. A friend of mine (who has only rarely played D&D, and has never read Tolkien) didn't like the take either. So it's NOT "because they aren't like Tolkien's Elves." Sometimes people like things just to like them, and dislike other things for the same reason.
The Ubbergeek 05-24-07, 12:21 AM	Note - Shadowrun was DELIBERATLY making each races a part of the 'Our Genre Sapiens, it was not an oversight and weak imagination. I am tempted to do as much, to irk some elftitis-affected fans... And like it or not, the modern elf is tolkienesque in fantasy, because it was the 2,0 version of the myths, so to speak, a rebooot. Hence why somes have expectations.... The archetypal elf is tolkienesque. Sadly, it seems we are not allowed to do otherwise or they are 'humans in funny suit.' And I really, really, REALLY hate that.
GothicDan 05-24-07, 12:30 AM	Note - Shadowrun was DELIBERATLY making each races a part of the 'Our Genre Sapiens, it was not an oversight and weak imagination. I am tempted to do as much, to irk some elftitis-affected fans... You say this as if I didn't know that fact. I read the books, you know. The archetypal elf is tolkienesque. Sadly, it seems we are not allowed to do otherwise or they are 'humans in funny suit.' And I really, really, REALLY hate that. Right. You still haven't learned to actually read what I write, I see. The archetypal elf has been around for LONG BEFORE TOLKIEN. He did NOT define the elf. And the FR Elf is significantly different from the core elf. The question is - how do you define a race? By how they look, or by culture? I define them by both, since mythologically, the two were usually connected. (NOT just Elves, but Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes, Dryads, Sprites, Fairies, etc.) What classically has made these races SEPARATE races (and NOT just how they were in Shadowrun, scientific abberations) is the fact that they were largely intimately linked with their cultures.
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 05-24-07, 07:12 AM	To make this relevant again Eberrons elve while not exactly paying hommage to the old legands ( though I could cite Celic myths to show that they are true to the fae) are an intresting take. In FR untill very recently Elves were in Literal retreat. In Eberron the Vales Tarn, a group who beleved in honoring there chosen anchestors and in the glory of battle, conquered a fair chunk of Cyre before the morning. The Valenar elves ride peerless steeds and are mercyless wariors, who would always always fight. If you have read tales of the Wild hunt I'm sure i dont need to point out the resonanaces. Likewise the Elves of Arenal who turn there great heroes in to deathless (Positave energy undead) and have a culture laden with mortality and the trappings of death (Even going so far as to paint tem selves with bones to more closely resemble the dead) could be held up as a desenadnt of the Sluagh Side, fae who lived in barrow mounds, could converce with ghoast and tell the future.
The Ubbergeek 05-24-07, 10:49 AM	The archetypal elf has been around for LONG BEFORE TOLKIEN. He did NOT define the elf. And the FR Elf is significantly different from the core elf. The question is - how do you define a race? By how they look, or by culture? I define them by both, since mythologically, the two were usually connected. (NOT just Elves, but Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes, Dryads, Sprites, Fairies, etc.) What classically has made these races SEPARATE races (and NOT just how they were in Shadowrun, scientific abberations) is the fact that they were largely intimately linked with their cultures. My point was that Tolkien REdefined the Elf, at least in fantasy. The elf before and after where two different things.
GothicDan 05-24-07, 02:27 PM	And my point is, the difference between FR's Elves and Tolkien's is as different as Tolkien's were to the Elves before.
GothicDan 05-24-07, 02:29 PM	And, mind you, I really do like Elves of Aerenal (sp?). Their culture and their magic was very similar to a sort of Etruscan-esque fantasy world I was creating, where undeath was fully integrated into society (I don't see the need for Deathless, because I run with the old rules that Negative Energy is not Evil). I would love to use them. However, I would not call them Elves, nor necessarily use Elven stats for them.
Drew1369r 05-24-07, 04:12 PM	Eberron has a very 1920's feel to it and the only reason there are no high level NPC's to do anything is because there hasn't been any novels that depict them. The fact that Dragons aren't alignment contrained by their colour also makes for some head spinning (Why is that Blackgaurd riding a gold dragon?)
The Ubbergeek 05-24-07, 07:23 PM	And, mind you, I really do like Elves of Aerenal (sp?). Their culture and their magic was very similar to a sort of Etruscan-esque fantasy world I was creating, where undeath was fully integrated into society (I don't see the need for Deathless, because I run with the old rules that Negative Energy is not Evil). I would love to use them. However, I would not call them Elves, nor necessarily use Elven stats for them. Like it or not, they ARE elves. You say that Tolkien is not important yadda yadda, but in fact, everything that out of Tolkienism (except for things like drow), well, it is not elves. For me, an elves is more than tolkien. An elven culture like the one you use is still an elven culture. (and also, those undying guys are like mummies - wheren't they powered by positive force in old editions? No need to remove them.)
GothicDan 05-24-07, 10:39 PM	Like it or not, they ARE elves. You say that Tolkien is not important yadda yadda, but in fact, everything that out of Tolkienism (except for things like drow), well, it is not elves. Do you realize that saying "WELL CANON IS THIS..." is COMPLETELY nontopical when having a discussion concerning how one FEELS about canon? You have a history of trying to use canon to justify canon, and it's completely ineffective in getting across whatever point you're trying to make (if there is one). If you want to discuss something with me, DISCUSS IT. Don't make general statements and then try to follow it up with "It's canon, deal with it." That's not a discussion. That's you being a parrot. For me, an elves is more than tolkien. An elven culture like the one you use is still an elven culture. I don't know what this means. (and also, those undying guys are like mummies - wheren't they powered by positive force in old editions? No need to remove them.) Greater Mummies, in some sources, were powered by Positive Energy.
MarkusTay63 05-24-07, 11:05 PM	Dan, you would have loved the Jakandor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakandor) mini-setting that came out in the '90's. The indegenious culture, the Charonti, were necromancers, but were not evil at all. They animated their dead to help with menial work and thought nothing of it. Not that that has anything to do with Elves, mind you, but they did remind me of the Eberron Deathless guys. On topic - Real Elves would use Bronze weapons, and the higher-ups would use mithral or Glassteel. If they wanted to make Elves different, they should have a completely different physiology, with their own weird allergies and what-not. Remember that old TV show, Alien Nation? They looked a lot like us but got drunk off of sour milk (and were unaffected by alcohal). You know, the way Halflings get high on cheeeeese.... ;) To keep the rules simple, they made the other races just humans with Attribute adjustments, and better vision. Whats the point, especially when in 3e you can raise your attributes? At least in 1e they had class level limits (stupid, but it made them more unique). In pre-1e (OD&D), Elves were a class, as well as a race. Now that made them REAL different. I'm a firm believer in simplifiing rules, but I would rather see some serious differences between the races, and not just cosmetic ones. At least say their heart is on the other side, or where our livers are... something! How about if dwarves have to ingest a certain amount of silicon each day? If they had to chew rocks, it would give them one helluva bite. I don't even care if they are silly, I'd just like to see a little originality once in awhile.
GothicDan 05-24-07, 11:19 PM	Dan, you would have loved the Jakandor mini-setting that came out in the '90's. The indegenious culture, the Charonti, were necromancers, but were not evil at all. They animated their dead to help with menial work and thought nothing of it. I've never heard of it! I <3 it. I'm doing something similar. I'm basically drawing elements from the Etruscans, Scandinavians, Inuit, Lapps, and Siberians to create a crazy arctic culture, ruled over by an undying (ice mummy) theocracy of ruling necromantic elders, priests of the Lord of Doom, god of death, the dead, eternity, fate, inevitability, futility.. Lawful Evil, with a small pantheon of demigods and lesser gods that serve him... And then the opposing Good/Neutral Gods (lesser in power, none greater than intermediate), who are the patrons of the rebels... That and my Solar Theocracy culture (inspiration: Mayans, Incans, Aztecs, Egyptians, Dune a little) are two of my favorite creations.
Alac Luin 05-24-07, 11:24 PM	Greater Mummies, in some sources, were powered by Positive Energy. Not just the Greater Mummies, the standard ones also. But I'd have to say Eberron's two deathless monsters are less like mummies and more like Baelnorns, IN THEME. The "undieing councilors" act as advisers (normal baelnorns) and the "undieing soldiers" are defenders (like the Sy'’Tel'’Quessir baelnorn). Granted, their affect on society is much greater on Eberron. The creatures themselves are not really new concepts.
GothicDan 05-24-07, 11:26 PM	Are you sure the Lesser Mummies were, too? In Van Richten's, it pointed out that the mummies ability to Regenerate is what truly tied them to the positive energy plane. Normal mummies couldn't do that, I didn't think.
Alac Luin 05-24-07, 11:33 PM	2ed MM TSR 2140 (the hardbound) page 261 "<snip> the spirit of the mummified person will not die, but taps into energy from the Positive Material plane and os transformed into an undead horror. " I had to read it to make sure before I posted earlier. :) The "Mummy, Greater" is pages 262, 263 in the same tome. I think your "in some sources" still applies.:)
The Ubbergeek 05-25-07, 01:06 AM	class[/b], as well as a race. Now that made them REAL different. I'm a firm believer in simplifiing rules, but I would rather see some serious differences between the races, and not just cosmetic ones. At least say their heart is on the other side, or where our livers are... something! How about if dwarves have to ingest a certain amount of silicon each day? If they had to chew rocks, it would give them one helluva bite. I don't even care if they are silly, I'd just like to see a little originality once in awhile. Rules and crunch a race don't make - I fail to see the point where they are human in suits just because of some changes. Case in point - see the humans. The cultures of them are radically different. But they are still humans. The Wa of Kara-Tur and the Cormyrians may sounds utherly alien to each other.... But still humans, they are. The biology is not only the factor - there is also culture, sociology. Ethnos. Elves are still elves... always mysterious to humans at the end. At first glance, they seems similar... but when you look deep... They are very, evry different. Just look at the deep meaning of their longevity and their reverie and their consequences - compared with the humans's 'frenetic' short life, and their ability to dream... Note that the differences of elves and humans in D&D where never said to be extremely huge - the half-elves could not have existed for both biological and sociological reasons. They always where to be distant and at the same time close fromn each other. Or superficialy close but in reality quite distant if you prefer.Can you see my point that I am trying to say? To quote Dan, no need to make things damn different just for the heck of it.
GothicDan 05-25-07, 03:37 AM	Making two entirely different SPECIES who share no evolutionary lines whatsoever (Elves in no way are descended from apes) is NOT for no reason. It's a logical step that only, in my never humble opinion, only an unimaginative ignoramus could not see. Long live editions in which crunch ACTUALLY supported lore logically. I am a firm believer in the fact that if crunch doesn't support lore, that it is unnecessary. When I make races, I look very closely at their biological functions, their natural abilities and their resistances, their body temperatures, their eyesight, etc., and try to take into account every factor possible into how their cultures had evolved. Physiology (represented by mechanics) is biologically inextricably linked to cultural development. That's something that I will not argue unless someone has at least degrees in anthropology, psychology, or biology.
The Ubbergeek 05-25-07, 11:46 AM	Making two entirely different SPECIES who share no evolutionary lines whatsoever (Elves in no way are descended from apes) is NOT for no reason. It's a logical step that only, in my never humble opinion, only an unimaginative ignoramus could not see. Long live editions in which crunch ACTUALLY supported lore logically. I am a firm believer in the fact that if crunch doesn't support lore, that it is unnecessary. When I make races, I look very closely at their biological functions, their natural abilities and their resistances, their body temperatures, their eyesight, etc., and try to take into account every factor possible into how their cultures had evolved. Physiology (represented by mechanics) is biologically inextricably linked to cultural development. That's something that I will not argue unless someone has at least degrees in anthropology, psychology, or biology. *shrugs* Evolution often make species who seems related, but that's only adaptation to similar ecological niches - like wolves and the gone tasmanian wolves. And then, often, cultures can go a wee bit against expected biological mores - like Book Religions area and their strict relations toward sex. Long lives editions where fluff can also yeld to crunch, by your logic. The elves are fine as it is.
GothicDan 05-25-07, 11:55 AM	*shrugs* Evolution often make species who seems related, but that's only adaptation to similar ecological niches - like wolves and the gone tasmanian wolves. You're assuming that they evolved. Canon is that Elves (and Dwarves, and Orcs) did not evolve. They were created by their deific pantheon heads. Therefore, parallel evolutionary theory is right out the window. And you're referencing a Wolf and a Tasmanian Wolf to justify having the same biology? You DO realize they both aren't even mammals, right? They couldn't even interbreed. The example you picked was further apart than Elves are from Humans. Long lives editions where fluff can also yeld to crunch, by your logic. No. Down with those. They are dumb.
MarkusTay63 05-25-07, 12:04 PM	I like those things! They need to be in FR. I actually found some movie footage (http://cas.bellarmine.edu/tietjen/images/tasmanian_wolf.htm) of one! And a perfect example of why other races SHOULD be way different then humans.
GothicDan 05-25-07, 12:13 PM	I agree, Markus. That's largely why Cormanthyr may well be my favorite source. It at least tries to go into explanation as to how Elves are different, biologically as well as culturally. Biology -> Culture.
Stigger 05-25-07, 03:20 PM	And yet elves can interbreed with a lot of different species... one wonders what that would imply about them.
GothicDan 05-25-07, 10:54 PM	A certain tendency in D&D to depict humans as able to interbreed with pretty much ANY race or species, regardless of biological functions. I'd attribute it to magic, myself. Perhaps an overall Outer Planar belief momentum resulting from standard human neutrality (on a cosmological scale). Or it could be the Rilmani. I could TOTALLY SEE the Rilmani having magically created the seeds of humanity...!
Blackheart 05-29-07, 10:10 AM	Wait. Dan? Wolves and Tasmanian Wolves aren't mammals?! Has the word been redefined lately?
The Ubbergeek 05-29-07, 11:12 AM	Wait. Dan? Wolves and Tasmanian Wolves aren't mammals?! Has the word been redefined lately? Indeed, both are mamals - placental VS marsupial mamals.
GothicDan 05-29-07, 02:31 PM	Actually, yes. They're both Therian mammals. However, they still can't remotely interbreed, and are extremely different from each other in terms of evolution (pack animal vs. solitary, for instance).
Blackheart 05-30-07, 12:10 AM	My question was in reference to one of your earlier posts (#274.) ...I thought I had slept through some very big announcements.
BrennonGoldeye 05-30-07, 08:06 AM	And yet elves can interbreed with a lot of different species... one wonders what that would imply about them. Umm, all kinds of folk find us sexy?:ayyyy!:
Bluenose 05-30-07, 09:10 AM	And yet elves can interbreed with a lot of different species... one wonders what that would imply about them. Elf girls are easy. You've never heard of a half-gnome, have you?
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 05-30-07, 09:46 AM	Actualy, when a human and a gnome get realy realy drunk... well thats how you get elves. All the evidance stacks up. Tallr than Gnomes, smaller than humans. Love of nature. But Great empire builders. Inherent knack with magic. Now you know why the Whisper Gnomes arent talking...
MarkusTay63 05-30-07, 09:51 AM	There are too many 'logistical' problems involved with that. ;) I think, from a purely scientific point of veiw, that interbreeding between species in D&D is aided by magic. Perhaps the 'gods' set some kind of mechanism in motion, that allows DNA to mesh, and maybe except abnormal chromsomal fertilization. If thats the case (and really, it SHOULD be), then fertilization should NOT be able to occur in a magic-dead zone, and any females that were pregnant during Karsus' Folly would have lost their child. Furthermore, not all Crystal Spheres/Alternate Primes would have this mechanism in place, so here on Earth a human and an Elf would not be able to conceive together. Of course, since Elminster can, and has MANY times, 'ported' into and out of our plane, then there must still be some residual magic left here. If thats the case, then perhaps there is an ever-so-slight chance of a pregnancy between humans, demi-humans, and humanoids in the RW (but I doubt it).
GothicDan 05-30-07, 05:40 PM	And yet elves can interbreed with a lot of different species... one wonders what that would imply about them. That they worship a Chaotic Good pantheon, by far and large? :)
Stigger 05-30-07, 07:16 PM	Not quite what I was getting at, but if it makes you happy...
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 06-10-07, 03:49 PM	Eberron is the seting that it is easyer to emulate Firefly with as I beleve this thread http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=741788&highlight=firefly will prove. As Firefly > Just about anying and Ebberon is closer to Firefly that means Ebberon > Moast things, including the realms... Sorry Ed, Joss Whedon is my master now... ;)
The Ubbergeek 06-10-07, 07:41 PM	Then, Eberron is sure less D&D - firefly is SCIENCE-FICTION, amigo.
Alac Luin 06-10-07, 10:23 PM	Eberron is the seting that it is easyer to emulate Firefly with as I beleve this thread http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=741788&highlight=firefly will prove. As Firefly > Just about anying and Ebberon is closer to Firefly that means Ebberon > Moast things, including the realms... Sorry Ed, Joss Whedon is my master now... ;) So, Eberron will be canceled after one season, then after a few years a sub par compilation will be released that no one will read? Not sure Firefly is the best analogy ;)
Dark Wizard 06-10-07, 11:15 PM	So, Eberron will be canceled after one season, then after a few years a sub par compilation will be released that no one will read? Ouch. FOX's helter-skelter treatment of genre shows is not a fate I wish upon any setting.
Alac Luin 06-12-07, 08:48 PM	Don't get me wrong, I liked Firefly, and I even enjoyed the movie. The movie could have been better... But I can agree with Elad, that Eberron is most likely the best candidate for a firefly flavored game out of the current published campaign settings, Spelljammer would have worked better though.
alder_zeal 06-14-07, 07:19 PM	Eberron does not have to be on life support. FR does, It has spanned 2 editions, and with the imminent 4ed what can be published for the Realms that has not been covered. FR will end up with 1 book like Dragonlance, product rights will be sold to Ed if they even do sell it. The Realms may have history, but that in the end it will be history. What story can they tell for 4ed. You mean to tell me you will buy Serepnt Kingdoms 4.0, Waterdeep 4.0 and so on.
Dark Wizard 06-14-07, 08:02 PM	What story will Eberron tell for 45th edition? They really aren't separated by that much time in terms of publishing history once you get far away enough from the current day. I kind of think it's the opposite. Eberron needed major marketing dollars to set it up. FR just gets material released and fans pick it up.
alder_zeal 06-14-07, 09:08 PM	The same thing can be said as FR was new. Eberron novels are coming out on a regular basis. So FR has the cult following of epic proprotions. The Rolling Stones put out a lot of albums tour and continued to do well. Now their timei s up . I look at it like this I was a home brewer and when Eberron came out i said hmmm what does this offer. Answer Eberron offers DM's the chance to manage a game and not have players dictate realms history like it is world history, telling the DM he is wrong. Eberron offers stories that not have been told. and i am sorry about the typo This entire thread although is closer to why Pink FLoyd rocks when they know deep down inside it just does not have the same flare as it did 20 years ago. It gives you realmers peace of mind because Eberron is young and new. Another analogy comparing FR to Eberron is like comparing Jordan to James. Earnhardt to Earnhardt Jr. No matter how good the younger/new player is they will never live up to the legends.
Dark Wizard 06-14-07, 09:33 PM	The same thing can be said as FR was new. Eberron novels are coming out on a regular basis. So FR has the cult following of epic proprotions. Several FR novels and series are bestsellers, even considering that fantasy and genre fiction as a whole are a niche market. It's a bit more than cult following. This shows that FR has done and continues to do something right. It's telling stories that people find interesting, even 20 years into publishing. I'm not going to make any judgement on Eberron as it's still a new setting. I'm just saying, both settings are in the same boat. The Rolling Stones put out a lot of albums tour and continued to do well. Now their timei s up . I look at it like this I was a home brewer and when Eberron came out i said hmmm what does this offer. Answer Eberron struck a cord with your own interests and outlook. That does not mean others will find the same impact or if they did the affect may not be as potent. Eberron offers DM's the chance to manage a game and not have players dictate realms history like it is world history, telling the DM he is wrong. Eberron is fast approaching the point where players can do so, if it hasn't reached that point already. It was easy back when there was just the ECS. Now we have books on the Five Nations, Xen'Drik, Sarlona, the Dragonmarked Houses, the various faiths, the magical traditions, soon there will be a book on the Last War and the city of Stormreach. I wouldn't go getting complacent just yet. Eberron offers stories that not have been told. Not been told in Eberron perhaps. This entire thread although is closer to why Pink FLoyd rocks when they know deep down inside it just does not have the same flare as it did 20 years ago. It gives you realmers peace of mind because Eberron is young and new. Another analogy comparing FR to Eberron is like comparing Jordan to James. Earnhardt to Earnhardt Jr. No matter how good the younger/new player is they will never live up to the legends. Sort of like how many Eberroners think Eberron is the best thing since sliced bread because it's new. Last I checked, Eberron is around four years old, rapidly approaching half a decade. Before you know it, Eberron will be a decade old and the next generation of kids entering secondary school could be going "Eberr-what?" I wouldn't be throwing stones on top of my glass house just yet. Last time I checked, the most famous older music is still doing well, the Beatles, Elvis, Sinatra, pre-weird Michael Jackson, not to mention famous long dead classical guys like Mozart, Beetoven, Bach, Chopin, etc. Don't forget this is music, which is tied to public sentiment far more than works of printed text.
RedGlacier 06-15-07, 09:44 AM	Eberron does not have to be on life support. FR does. Actually, neither does. It has spanned 2 editions, and with the imminent 4ed what can be published for the Realms that has not been covered. A lot. Those of us who have been to Ed Greenwood's corner of the Candlekeep forum, read through his compiled replies, or just read his article on the city of Crimmor in Dragon 334 can confirm this. FR will end up with 1 book like Dragonlance, product rights will be sold to Ed if they even do sell it. To quote Ed himself (Dragon 335, p.37): ''Under the original Realms agreement, there are conditions under which the Realms ''reverts'' to me, so I doubt the current copyright holders will let those conditions happen.'' Ed won't even have to pay for them; he'll just get them back. And for the record, I'm a fan of both settings.