Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Green Elven Vampire 11-18-03, 07:51 PM	Tonight just for fun, my girlfriend and I are going to seriously pit these two against eachother in an all out death match. We have both read all the books with Manshoon in them and the return of the archwizards trillogy enouh to know their personalities and tactics in combat. What say you? Who do you think would win between these two?
PhilCW 11-18-03, 08:07 PM	Manshoon will lose because you will be taking into account Shadows of the Avatar trilogy book 1. Dumbest. Move. Ever.
thalious 11-18-03, 08:15 PM	Do they really have a reason to be fighting versus each other? Will the loser be dead in game? If not, disregard my first question.
Green Elven Vampire 11-18-03, 08:17 PM	Originally posted by PhilCW Manshoon will lose because you will be taking into account Shadows of the Avatar trilogy book 1. Dumbest. Move. Ever. Pray tell what dumb move that would be?
Green Elven Vampire 11-18-03, 08:27 PM	Originally posted by thalious Do they really have a reason to be fighting versus each other? Will the loser be dead in game? If not, disregard my first question. Well, yes and no! The quick prefab-hook we came up with was Hadrhune sent by Telemont to speak on behalf of Shade Enclave to Manshoon. The shades suggest a few demands upon Manshoon and the Zhents alike threatening doom if not complied with. Obviously Manshoon would hear of no such thing and commence the spell battle.
thalious 11-18-03, 08:38 PM	Cool, I would avoid having such a battle be lethal in game since both NPCs qualify as great BBEGs to be used versus a party. Have fun.
Kain's avatar 11-18-03, 08:43 PM	I'd say Hadrhune, because he would probably have more access to more powerful items and such, being from the last Netherese city of Shade. Plus, now Manshoon has been demoted to lowly cabin boy working for Fzoul, so he doesn't have as much item access. It also depends on if you're using ELH, because the ELH version of Manshoon is more powerful, and technically Hadrhune should have some ELH stuff too then, as he is 2 CR's into epic. Still, Manshoon's ElH build isn't that great, his two epic feats are almost useless IMO. Still, my money is on Hadrhune. His Shadow Adept boost to DC's will make him tough to beat, and the Shade powers are very useful in magical combat.
thalious 11-18-03, 08:44 PM	Manshoon has multiple clones, he won't be easy to beat mulitple times.
PhilCW 11-18-03, 10:11 PM	Disarming the Ranger's 3 with lightning bolts (well could now be said t be arcane fire). Also, IMo manshoon should have been given a few levels of fighter or rogue to reflect his "adventuring days" before becoming a Wizard.
Srinshee 11-18-03, 10:17 PM	I think Manshoon would win. Hadrhune isn't the toughest shade out there, he is less experienced than manshoon, and even if he does manage to take him down, one of manshoon's clones will come back when he leasts expect it and meteor swarm him in his sleep.
Kain's avatar 11-18-03, 11:00 PM	Another thing: Manshoon's write-up says he has "more than one hundered spells" in his spellbook. Just counting the spells of three schools(enchantment, illusion, and necromancy) that Hadrhune is said to have, he has 136, that's not counting any in Magic of Faerūn that he probably has some of too. That's just those three schools, he most certainly has almost an equal number from the other schools, which would give him in excess of 280 spells easily. Manshoon must have less than 200 spells, as it says "more than one hundered" so Hadrhune already has a very large spellbook advantage. Also, think about their ages, Manshoon is less than 100 if I remember, and Hadrhune is "centuries" old, as I recall. As for clones, Hadrhune knows the Clone spell too, if you want to deal with those, but I thought this was just a who would win type thing? Also, didn't Manshoon stop making clones after the little mishap of several freaking out?
Wooly Rupert 11-19-03, 12:28 AM	Keep in mind something else about friend Manshoon: the boy was a major power in the Zhentarim. The Zhents are not known for being a friendly bunch, especially to each other. Add in someone like Fzoul, who's hated him for a long time... What I'm getting at is that Manshoon has had many, many enemies over the years. He certainly had enough that he had to develop the stasis clone spell just to stay around. He's prolly been ambushed countless times, and had to directly face opponents even more oft. The fact that he's still around shows that he knows his way around a spellbattle. My money's on the Zhent. :)
Gadodel 11-19-03, 02:45 AM	Manshoon's "coolness quotient" dropped considerably with the whole "clone" storyline. It rose again with him loosing his power to Fzoul and becoming a free agent. IMC, Manshoon is the most vile of BBEGs. No one, not even Fzoul can come close. The man has plots within schemes and back up plans within contingencies. He is the master over many and often to their complete ignorance. Hadrhune is only a new upstart. Sure, he has a lot of experience; but only within the city of Shade and its court. Manshoon would win.
Adrian Moonbow 11-19-03, 02:52 AM	Manshoon vs. Hadrhune? :) Weave vs. Shadow Weave? :( *BOOM*:eek: Manshoon would be pressed though because of the shadow weave stuff.
thalious 11-19-03, 03:07 AM	I don't know much about either of them, at least as far as their history goes. It would seem to me that neither would really wish to conflict with the other, not out of fear, but more out of pragmatism. What would either gain by beating the other? Heck, they might be more inclined to work together than fight. I am just speculating and someone more knowledgable in FR might have a better answer.
Savras 11-19-03, 07:42 AM	Manshoon would win. Higher level, the resources of the Zhentarim at his disposal, clones, and higher Int. Also, 3.5! No more insane DCs for Shadow Adepts! Huh! Savras
Savras 11-19-03, 07:45 AM	However, if you are about to RP that, I don't think they will fight. No point. If Hardhune would vex Manshoon, M wouldn't attack. He would plot Hardhune and Shade into oblivion. Savras
Crust 11-19-03, 07:48 AM	I could see Manshoon bringing a half dozen beholders to the fight. My vote goes to Manshoon.
Savras 11-19-03, 07:54 AM	Originally posted by Crust I could see Manshoon bringing a half dozen beholders to the fight. My vote goes to Manshoon. Knew I forgot something. Manshoon wins. Savras
Gellion 11-19-03, 08:43 PM	Azathoth would trash both of them.:88E:
PhilCW 11-19-03, 08:51 PM	In the old Villain's lorebook supplement it details that he has potentially the largest cache of magical items in all of Faerun (well most likely not anymore with it being divided and used up during the Manshoon Wars; which we have yet to really see the true aftereffects of about 40 archmages running around killing each other). It also says that his spellbook is one of the largest in Faerūn as well. One must also note he has near full access to all the ressources of the Zhentarim, which are arguably the strongest organization in Faerun right now. I'd give him the edge based on that fact. But if he acts cute or dumb, he's a goner. Same could be said of his opponent.
Green Elven Vampire 11-19-03, 09:19 PM	Well, well. The battle is over and my girlfriend did a wonderful job playing Hadrhune I must say. Our DM was very fair and expressionless. Believe it or not all it took was a melee touch attack with the "backlash" spell. After a quick witty parley Manshoon went to clasp Hadrhune's arm in a sign of peace (or surrender) and quickly punched him in the face (placing the spell on him), and when Hadrhune cast disintegration and Manshoon made his save, the disintegration spell backlashed on Hadrhune with no saving throw (only SR), and was slain by his own magic. It was a truly sad and quick end. Mind you... none of this actually took place in our campaign. We just wanted to see how well we could RP a true BBeG in a spell battle. We may switch NPC's and see if it comes out different. Next is The Vampire Manshoon vs. Fzoul. Place yer bets, place yer bets everyone.
Archmage 11-30-07, 11:42 PM	Well, well. The battle is over and my girlfriend did a wonderful job playing Hadrhune I must say. Our DM was very fair and expressionless. Believe it or not all it took was a melee touch attack with the "backlash" spell. After a quick witty parley Manshoon went to clasp Hadrhune's arm in a sign of peace (or surrender) and quickly punched him in the face (placing the spell on him), and when Hadrhune cast disintegration and Manshoon made his save, the disintegration spell backlashed on Hadrhune with no saving throw (only SR), and was slain by his own magic. It was a truly sad and quick end. Mind you... none of this actually took place in our campaign. We just wanted to see how well we could RP a true BBeG in a spell battle. We may switch NPC's and see if it comes out different. Next is The Vampire Manshoon vs. Fzoul. Place yer bets, place yer bets everyone. I would respectfully request that you re-do that battle. The backlash spell doesn't turn the target's offensive spell back upon him; it causes that spell to be expended while simultaneously ravaging the target with 1d6 damage per level of the wasted spell. Hadrhune would have taken 6d6 damage (none if he made his save. and his will save is quite high). He has enough hit points to survive that and strike back. Hadrhune's true race isn't give in the FRCS, but a careful reading of the Return of the Archwizards trilogy reveals that he is in fact an elf, now a shade. When it comes to magic, elves always win. :D So play Hadrhune right this time!
18DELTA 11-30-07, 11:56 PM	It doesnt even matter with Hadrhune being dead.;) He is killed at the end of Aunaroch The Empire of Shade Adventure!:P
Lord Karsus 12-01-07, 12:21 AM	-Holy crap. Talk about bump... It doesnt even matter with Hadrhune being dead.;) He is killed at the end of Aunaroch The Empire of Shade Adventure!:P -Really? Oh well...I liked how he pit himself against Prince Rivalen.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-01-07, 06:16 PM	It doesnt even matter with Hadrhune being dead.;) He is killed at the end of Aunaroch The Empire of Shade Adventure!:P That's just delicious. I get wonderful, sadistic chills up my spine from hearing that. MMmmmmm!
Stigger 12-01-07, 07:43 PM	*steps away from Rino*
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-01-07, 07:51 PM	*steps away from Rino* :evillaugh
18DELTA 12-01-07, 11:51 PM	That's just delicious. I get wonderful, sadistic chills up my spine from hearing that. MMmmmmm! WOW!!!