Manshoon [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Manshoon [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
thalious
01-03-04, 07:05 PM How many Clones does he have of himself? It reads like there at least 3 per the FRCS. Does anyone know if he has more?
Ryltar Swordsong
01-03-04, 07:09 PM He used to have at least 20+, but the Manshoon Wars (as described in Cloak and Dagger) thinned them down to 3. There might be more out there in hiding, but right now there are three known living clones. Presumably, all three know the Stasis Clone spell, and would be capable of creating more clones.
thalious
01-03-04, 07:21 PM Seems like Manshoon has acheived a measure of immortality then. My players are not going to like this..... :devil:
Ryltar Swordsong
01-03-04, 07:38 PM Well, Manshoon was born in 1229 DR, so he's well over 100 but he appears to be 30-40 (when his face is visible).
Wooly Rupert
01-03-04, 08:23 PM Originally posted by Ryltar Swordsong
He used to have at least 20+, but the Manshoon Wars (as described in Cloak and Dagger) thinned them down to 3. There might be more out there in hiding, but right now there are three known living clones. Presumably, all three know the Stasis Clone spell, and would be capable of creating more clones.

Actually, there were more than 40. And it would be more proper to say that three are known to still exist -- the one under Westgate is a vampire.

Some fled Realmspace altogether, though it doesn't say how many. It also says that there are ways around the compulsion to kill each other, so it's quite likely that there are beings in the Realms that used to be Manshoon clones, but have become someone else. A permanent polymorph can get around it, and so could a girdle of feminity...

I compiled a lot of info about Manshoon and his clones in this thread:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=146005
thalious
01-03-04, 08:27 PM A Mindrape Spell could control the urge of Clones to kill the others too.
Wooly Rupert
01-03-04, 09:06 PM Originally posted by thalious
A Mindrape Spell could control the urge of Clones to kill the others too.

I don't think so... The compulsion to kill the other clones is a side effect of the clone spell. I'd say it's like a magical resonance. So long as there is an identical copy of you out there, even if your mind is wiped clean, the magic remains and resonates with your clone(s). That resonance compels you to want to kill them.

That may be a weird idea, but it does explain why becoming something other than a living Manshoon clone frees the clones of their compulsion to kill the others: once they're no longer a direct iteration of the original, the resonance ends.
Drax Alcronis
01-03-04, 09:27 PM Mindrape could I think, at least the way it is written the caster can alter the memory, alignment, and other mental aspects of the victim.
Wooly Rupert
01-03-04, 10:00 PM Originally posted by Drax Alcronis
Mindrape could I think, at least the way it is written the caster can alter the memory, alignment, and other mental aspects of the victim.

But it's not the mind that's the issue -- the Night King is no longer a living Manshoon clone, so he has no worries about being compelled to kill other clones. All of the officially mentioned methods for getting around the compulsion are ones that change the body, not the mind. Permanently polymorphing into a new identity, becoming a woman, becoming undead... All these things leave the personality intact, but change the body -- and they get around the compulsion.

Going back to my resonance theory stated above, the resonance is tied to the body. Change the body, the resonance ends.

There is nothing that suggests that altering the mind would do anything about the compulsion -- only altering the body is listed as a way around it.
thalious
01-03-04, 10:04 PM The brain is cloned along with the body right? This is just my take on the matter, but changing the mind in effect is a change to the body, namely the brain which is physical part of the body.

Heck, Magic Jar could be used to swap bodies and avoid the compulsion since only the mind transfers, not the brain.
PhilCW
01-03-04, 10:47 PM A possible tie-in I was hoping they were going to explore from the Old "The North" boxed set never revealed itself. In the old boxed set, there was a campaign prospectus where it was hinted that the Simbul would conflict with the Chosen and potentially lead to a war between her and her fellows. When I read Cloak & Dagger and saw her name as one of those harboring a Manshoon clone, I was expecting that this move on her part would be that event.

Well since novels seem to be a bit behind in the chronology department, we might see that story unfold in the foreseeable future.
Wooly Rupert
01-04-04, 12:18 AM Originally posted by thalious
The brain is cloned along with the body right? This is just my take on the matter, but changing the mind in effect is a change to the body, namely the brain which is physical part of the body.

Heck, Magic Jar could be used to swap bodies and avoid the compulsion since only the mind transfers, not the brain.

If the compulsion was tied to the brain, then changing the body wouldn't matter. As it has been proven that changing the body is what it takes, that's where I stand.

Cloak & Dagger speaks of changing the body to escape the compulsion, and lists ways to do so. It does not so much as imply that a mental change could circumvent the compulsion.

The stasis clone spell created a body. The compulsion is linked to the body.

A magic jar would work, but I don't like that option -- too many chances for a fubar leaving you disembodied.
thalious
01-04-04, 04:56 PM Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The stasis clone spell created a body. The compulsion is linked to the body.

A magic jar would work, but I don't like that option -- too many chances for a fubar leaving you disembodied.

Again, is the brain not a physical part of the body? Changes to the mind/brain would constitute a chage to the body per se.

As for magic jar, if you slay your old body, you can keep the body you currently inhabit through magic jar.
dragonheart
01-04-04, 07:04 PM "Seems like Manshoon has acheived a measure of immortality then. My players are not going to like this..... "

actually this is kinda fun - you don't have to worry about having him escape when he is the villain behind the scenes - just kill him off and a clone returns - and even better since he didn't get to update the clone it doesn't know your exact tatics and you can kepp using them over and over ( maybe)

:D :D
Wooly Rupert
01-04-04, 07:53 PM Originally posted by thalious
Again, is the brain not a physical part of the body? Changes to the mind/brain would constitute a chage to the body per se.

Changing the personality would not alter the physical architecture of the brain. Or, if it did, the change would be negligible, at best.

The personality is a combination of the person's upbringing and their experiences. Though the physical architecture of the brain may influence these things -- such as by chemical imbalances and how he brain wired -- these things do not shape the personality.

Look at people who have amnesia, and forget all details of their life. They could wind up building a whole new personality -- but the old one is still there, and can be recovered. This indicates that the physical architecture of the brain remains unchanged.

For that matter, everyone changes to some degree as time passes. I'm not talking about growing from being a child to being an adult -- I'm talking about how opinions and beliefs held at 20 may be totally different at 30, and so on.

A person could, for example, be strongly prejudiced -- even going so far as to be violent -- against members of a certain group. But then something could happen to make them rethink that. Or time and perspective could cause them to alter their stance. Is this a change of their mental architecture? No, it's just a change in the way they think.

Similarly, a person can go from having no scruples at all to being an honorable sort, trusted by all. Again, this is not a physical change, but one that is purely mental.

So, I will again iterate: changing the personality would not free a Manshoon clone of the complusion. Changing the body is what it takes.

Originally posted by thalious
As for magic jar, if you slay your old body, you can keep the body you currently inhabit through magic jar.

You suggest that changing the personality is enough to circumvent the compulsion. But putting it in another mind would leave the personality in another body. If, as you seem to think, the compulsion was tied to the mind, then this method would not work.

Originally posted by dragonheart
"Seems like Manshoon has acheived a measure of immortality then. My players are not going to like this..... "

actually this is kinda fun - you don't have to worry about having him escape when he is the villain behind the scenes - just kill him off and a clone returns - and even better since he didn't get to update the clone it doesn't know your exact tatics and you can kepp using them over and over ( maybe)

:D :D

Actually, I read that Manshoon used this strategy quite often in the past. Make sure a clone is up to date, then charge into battle with a body that's starting to get old. He gets killed, but manages to pop right back up, as strong as before but in a younger and stronger body.
Malaug
01-08-04, 06:35 AM It doesn't say how, but the clones (specifically the Mansoon clone in Zhentil Keep) rided themselves of the compulsion to slay each other with various magics and magical items.

Don't forget that apart from the clones that he has scattered all over Faerun, he has some on other planes and even other dimensions.

It would be night on impossible to kill him outright!
Selgaunt
01-08-04, 01:36 PM This may have already been answered but here goes...If I'm not mistaken there are three manshoons remaining. One is living with Halaster Blackcloak in undermountain(Waterdeep), another is supposedly living in Westgate as a Vampire, and the Last one one(which is rumored to be the "real" Manshoon, is living in Zhentil Keep!!!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
thalious 01-03-04, 07:05 PM	How many Clones does he have of himself? It reads like there at least 3 per the FRCS. Does anyone know if he has more?
Ryltar Swordsong 01-03-04, 07:09 PM	He used to have at least 20+, but the Manshoon Wars (as described in Cloak and Dagger) thinned them down to 3. There might be more out there in hiding, but right now there are three known living clones. Presumably, all three know the Stasis Clone spell, and would be capable of creating more clones.
thalious 01-03-04, 07:21 PM	Seems like Manshoon has acheived a measure of immortality then. My players are not going to like this..... :devil:
Ryltar Swordsong 01-03-04, 07:38 PM	Well, Manshoon was born in 1229 DR, so he's well over 100 but he appears to be 30-40 (when his face is visible).
Wooly Rupert 01-03-04, 08:23 PM	Originally posted by Ryltar Swordsong He used to have at least 20+, but the Manshoon Wars (as described in Cloak and Dagger) thinned them down to 3. There might be more out there in hiding, but right now there are three known living clones. Presumably, all three know the Stasis Clone spell, and would be capable of creating more clones. Actually, there were more than 40. And it would be more proper to say that three are known to still exist -- the one under Westgate is a vampire. Some fled Realmspace altogether, though it doesn't say how many. It also says that there are ways around the compulsion to kill each other, so it's quite likely that there are beings in the Realms that used to be Manshoon clones, but have become someone else. A permanent polymorph can get around it, and so could a girdle of feminity... I compiled a lot of info about Manshoon and his clones in this thread: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=146005
thalious 01-03-04, 08:27 PM	A Mindrape Spell could control the urge of Clones to kill the others too.
Wooly Rupert 01-03-04, 09:06 PM	Originally posted by thalious A Mindrape Spell could control the urge of Clones to kill the others too. I don't think so... The compulsion to kill the other clones is a side effect of the clone spell. I'd say it's like a magical resonance. So long as there is an identical copy of you out there, even if your mind is wiped clean, the magic remains and resonates with your clone(s). That resonance compels you to want to kill them. That may be a weird idea, but it does explain why becoming something other than a living Manshoon clone frees the clones of their compulsion to kill the others: once they're no longer a direct iteration of the original, the resonance ends.
Drax Alcronis 01-03-04, 09:27 PM	Mindrape could I think, at least the way it is written the caster can alter the memory, alignment, and other mental aspects of the victim.
Wooly Rupert 01-03-04, 10:00 PM	Originally posted by Drax Alcronis Mindrape could I think, at least the way it is written the caster can alter the memory, alignment, and other mental aspects of the victim. But it's not the mind that's the issue -- the Night King is no longer a living Manshoon clone, so he has no worries about being compelled to kill other clones. All of the officially mentioned methods for getting around the compulsion are ones that change the body, not the mind. Permanently polymorphing into a new identity, becoming a woman, becoming undead... All these things leave the personality intact, but change the body -- and they get around the compulsion. Going back to my resonance theory stated above, the resonance is tied to the body. Change the body, the resonance ends. There is nothing that suggests that altering the mind would do anything about the compulsion -- only altering the body is listed as a way around it.
thalious 01-03-04, 10:04 PM	The brain is cloned along with the body right? This is just my take on the matter, but changing the mind in effect is a change to the body, namely the brain which is physical part of the body. Heck, Magic Jar could be used to swap bodies and avoid the compulsion since only the mind transfers, not the brain.
PhilCW 01-03-04, 10:47 PM	A possible tie-in I was hoping they were going to explore from the Old "The North" boxed set never revealed itself. In the old boxed set, there was a campaign prospectus where it was hinted that the Simbul would conflict with the Chosen and potentially lead to a war between her and her fellows. When I read Cloak & Dagger and saw her name as one of those harboring a Manshoon clone, I was expecting that this move on her part would be that event. Well since novels seem to be a bit behind in the chronology department, we might see that story unfold in the foreseeable future.
Wooly Rupert 01-04-04, 12:18 AM	Originally posted by thalious The brain is cloned along with the body right? This is just my take on the matter, but changing the mind in effect is a change to the body, namely the brain which is physical part of the body. Heck, Magic Jar could be used to swap bodies and avoid the compulsion since only the mind transfers, not the brain. If the compulsion was tied to the brain, then changing the body wouldn't matter. As it has been proven that changing the body is what it takes, that's where I stand. Cloak & Dagger speaks of changing the body to escape the compulsion, and lists ways to do so. It does not so much as imply that a mental change could circumvent the compulsion. The stasis clone spell created a body. The compulsion is linked to the body. A magic jar would work, but I don't like that option -- too many chances for a fubar leaving you disembodied.
thalious 01-04-04, 04:56 PM	Originally posted by Wooly Rupert The stasis clone spell created a body. The compulsion is linked to the body. A magic jar would work, but I don't like that option -- too many chances for a fubar leaving you disembodied. Again, is the brain not a physical part of the body? Changes to the mind/brain would constitute a chage to the body per se. As for magic jar, if you slay your old body, you can keep the body you currently inhabit through magic jar.
dragonheart 01-04-04, 07:04 PM	"Seems like Manshoon has acheived a measure of immortality then. My players are not going to like this..... " actually this is kinda fun - you don't have to worry about having him escape when he is the villain behind the scenes - just kill him off and a clone returns - and even better since he didn't get to update the clone it doesn't know your exact tatics and you can kepp using them over and over ( maybe) :D :D
Wooly Rupert 01-04-04, 07:53 PM	Originally posted by thalious Again, is the brain not a physical part of the body? Changes to the mind/brain would constitute a chage to the body per se. Changing the personality would not alter the physical architecture of the brain. Or, if it did, the change would be negligible, at best. The personality is a combination of the person's upbringing and their experiences. Though the physical architecture of the brain may influence these things -- such as by chemical imbalances and how he brain wired -- these things do not shape the personality. Look at people who have amnesia, and forget all details of their life. They could wind up building a whole new personality -- but the old one is still there, and can be recovered. This indicates that the physical architecture of the brain remains unchanged. For that matter, everyone changes to some degree as time passes. I'm not talking about growing from being a child to being an adult -- I'm talking about how opinions and beliefs held at 20 may be totally different at 30, and so on. A person could, for example, be strongly prejudiced -- even going so far as to be violent -- against members of a certain group. But then something could happen to make them rethink that. Or time and perspective could cause them to alter their stance. Is this a change of their mental architecture? No, it's just a change in the way they think. Similarly, a person can go from having no scruples at all to being an honorable sort, trusted by all. Again, this is not a physical change, but one that is purely mental. So, I will again iterate: changing the personality would not free a Manshoon clone of the complusion. Changing the body is what it takes. Originally posted by thalious As for magic jar, if you slay your old body, you can keep the body you currently inhabit through magic jar. You suggest that changing the personality is enough to circumvent the compulsion. But putting it in another mind would leave the personality in another body. If, as you seem to think, the compulsion was tied to the mind, then this method would not work. Originally posted by dragonheart "Seems like Manshoon has acheived a measure of immortality then. My players are not going to like this..... " actually this is kinda fun - you don't have to worry about having him escape when he is the villain behind the scenes - just kill him off and a clone returns - and even better since he didn't get to update the clone it doesn't know your exact tatics and you can kepp using them over and over ( maybe) :D :D Actually, I read that Manshoon used this strategy quite often in the past. Make sure a clone is up to date, then charge into battle with a body that's starting to get old. He gets killed, but manages to pop right back up, as strong as before but in a younger and stronger body.
Malaug 01-08-04, 06:35 AM	It doesn't say how, but the clones (specifically the Mansoon clone in Zhentil Keep) rided themselves of the compulsion to slay each other with various magics and magical items. Don't forget that apart from the clones that he has scattered all over Faerun, he has some on other planes and even other dimensions. It would be night on impossible to kill him outright!
Selgaunt 01-08-04, 01:36 PM	This may have already been answered but here goes...If I'm not mistaken there are three manshoons remaining. One is living with Halaster Blackcloak in undermountain(Waterdeep), another is supposedly living in Westgate as a Vampire, and the Last one one(which is rumored to be the "real" Manshoon, is living in Zhentil Keep!!!