Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Eladrinstar 04-03-07, 07:05 PM	I was thinking about Kara-Tur, the redux. I would wish so much to help, but unfortunately I cannot as I know next to nothing of Kara-Tur :( . But I do have the Maztica books, downloaded on this very site. The challenge is to make a good, living, breathing, and interesting campaign setting. And convert to 3.5. My question is: Who would like to participate. You must have the Maztica books or dowloaded version. If you would like to help, post that you would like too. But don't post any Maztica info yet.
Alac Luin 04-03-07, 07:20 PM	I'm in. I already have a few things converted to 3.5, for perusal on my hard drive available at a moments notice. :)
lavekkia 04-04-07, 06:28 AM	It s ok to me; Will we include material from Dragon and Dungeon ? We should create a ToC to begin with and move on from that
lavekkia 04-04-07, 06:37 AM	Google reported these to me http://www.nightwasp.com/daggerdale/maztica/mazticahome.htm http://www.dndonlinegames.com/printthread.php?t=7093
Kid SixXx 04-04-07, 08:14 AM	But I do have the Maztica books, downloaded on this very site. The challenge is to make a good, living, breathing, and interesting campaign setting. And convert to 3.5. Any of you FR people who's seen Apocalypto should be beating a path to participation.
Francius 04-04-07, 05:19 PM	My question is: Who would like to participate. You must have the Maztica books or dowloaded version. If you would like to help, post that you would like too. But don't post any Maztica info yet. Just tell me what I have to do and when. (Heck, I 've been the only man standing up -alone- in favor of the "bring back Maztica" argument, it'll be a shame not participating)
Eladrinstar 04-04-07, 06:05 PM	Okay, any thing you have already made PM to me, otherwise, don't start just yet. I don't quite have this organized but I should soon.
Francius 04-04-07, 07:07 PM	Okay, any thing you have already made PM to me, otherwise, don't start just yet. I don't quite have this organized but I should soon. Eladrinstar, I 'm already midway into converting some basic Maztican equipment into the 3.5 game and re-designing some classes that better fit the "true world" scene. In essence, those re-designed classes I 'm referring to, are the PHB base classes with some things added/subtracted to them to make them coalish with the Maztica world.I think you can call them slightly different versions or just "kits". As soon as I'm finished I 'll send them to you.I think in a week's time (or maybe more if I have work to attend to). Regarding the Maztica story, do you have in mind to alter it or redesign some portion of it in some way? Or will we just travel with the basic 2nd edition canon?
Alac Luin 04-04-07, 08:32 PM	Eldrin star: I hope I didn't blow up your in box :) It had to be broken down. I also have rules for the ball game, but that would take another 2 PMs. If anything is of use, great. If not, thats great also. :)
Eladrinstar 04-04-07, 08:50 PM	Well, you might as well start creating stuff. But before you do so, finish reading this post. We must set some ground rules: 1) Okay, I can see contradicting information. If even the tiniest detail of contradiction happens, well have to make a vote with a pre-set time limit, possibly a week. Let the people decide what they want in the setting. 2) Nothing will be posted unless sent to me by PM. Creative differences will happen, and I will have praise or slight disagreements with the authors of any lore or crunch given to me. If you disagree with me, ask for a vote and I will happily oblige. Although I started the thread and am hosting it, that does not make my opinions automatically correct. I guess that is it for now. I, for one will be adding tidbits to the history and adding events since the campaign setting cut off.
lavekkia 04-05-07, 07:04 AM	I am working on the Table Of Content; it's almost finished i ll PM to you Eladrinstar. Now i m asking a votation on two matters: Will we include information from Dragon Magazine 315 and Dragon Magazine 354 and 352 and 317? Will we include information from the sites i posted (also note that among them there is a sort of Official Site) (Also note that the site and Dr315 have contradicting information) ?
Eladrinstar 04-05-07, 08:12 AM	In regard to Dragon magazines and websites, I had in mind any previous lore will be used and possibly revamped. Previous crunch will be converted. I don't want to infringe on any one by taking converted crunch. The dragon magazine is fine if it is lore. Otherwise, no.
lavekkia 04-05-07, 08:43 AM	In regard to Dragon magazines and websites, I had in mind any previous lore will be used and possibly revamped. Previous crunch will be converted. I don't want to infringe on any one by taking converted crunch. The dragon magazine is fine if it is lore. Otherwise, no. Dr 315 deals specifically with Maztica; it has some lore about Eagle and Jaguar Knight and also present the two as PrC (badly done if you ask me; i could PM details if you want) Dr 352 and 354 present some Aztec (not Maztican) gods; there is almost only lore plus portfolio, alignment and such things. Regarding websites we could ask permission; they are better done. I have found race stats conversion and Jaguar and Eagle knight PrC; there are also other things but i don't remeber now
Eladrinstar 04-05-07, 04:39 PM	Right, well the Aztec should be disregarded. Maztica already has it's own pantheon. We shall see Francius's classes before tackling the Jaguar and Eagle Knight's. Also, I have an idea regarding the Time of Troubles. I am working on it right now, and then I will show you all and see what you think. Lavekkia, nice table of contents. I will post it my original post. Things may later be added, but I think it is an excellent framework to go by.
lavekkia 04-05-07, 06:23 PM	Well they could be added as lesser or newly ascended gods; maybe some consequence of the ToT; obviously if it meshes with your Time Of Troubles work. FYI Dr317 introduces 7 aztec/meso american related monsters. Another point: i would like to NOT introduce new classes: Substitution Level should be more appropriate. I also have work regarding the mythical floating cities which are hinted to exist in the continent northwest of Maztica: it's only a sidebar which will be expanded when we will create the Anchrome mini atlas.
Fokinther 04-06-07, 05:54 PM	Hi everyone, this looks like it should be good. I'm in the middle of a work-in-progress Maztica revamp myself (just 'fluff', not rules) but I've retconned a lot of stuff in my version (no Amnish invasion) so it's probably not compatible. I'm detailing Payit for my campaign at the moment. I've got the four downloadable Maztica books, but I have little experience in actually designing rules/classes. I'm more of a maps/setting guy. Good luck with the project, everybody!
SarnorSerra 04-07-07, 01:54 AM	I was thinking about Kara-Tur, the redux. I would wish so much to help, but unfortunately I cannot as I know next to nothing of Kara-Tur :( . But I do have the Maztica books, downloaded on this very site. The challenge is to make a good, living, breathing, and interesting campaign setting. And convert to 3.5. My question is: Who would like to participate. You must have the Maztica books or dowloaded version. If you would like to help, post that you would like too. But don't post any Maztica info yet. Where do i find the downloads??
Fokinther 04-07-07, 06:28 AM	SarnorSerra: Go to the Downloads section on the Dungeons and Dragons website and find "Old Edition Downloads". There's a big list of old edition Forgotten Realms pdf downloads there. The Maztica downloads are... Maztica Campaign Setting: The main box set. Fires of Zatal: A Maztica adventure module Endless Armies: Another adventure module City of Gold: A Maztica expansion, detailing a pueblo indians-type culture (like the Anasazi) to the northwest of Maztica. It's part sourcebook, part adventure module.
Alac Luin 04-07-07, 04:27 PM	Where do i find the downloads?? http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads the top 4 on the list for this project. There is also a few paragraphs on Maztica in Lands of Intrigue, advanceing the date a few years later in Realms time (it's still about a decade or so in the past, Realms time) and mention in Gold & Glory, although this one isn't that important. get the other stuff while you are there for other realms lore :)
lavekkia 04-09-07, 07:36 PM	Since the timeline stops at 1369 DR (at if we what do we plan for these last 6 years ? Aside from an expnasion of the colonies; what major events could have happened ? we have complete freedom; so throw in ideas :) I would like to see: - a new colony/force from Luskan ? or Calimport ? i really don't know - Some consequnces of the Rage Of Dragons (maybe one or two episodes of rampaging dragons but nothing more) - The organization of regular explorations of the internal lands - The construction of a secret portal between Waterdeep and New Waterdeep (or maybe the start of works) - The consequences of the plothooks exposed in Lands Of Intrigue with a progressive increase of skirmishes between New Waterdeep and Helmsport - The formation of an Eldreth Veluuthra cell within the Maztican Wild Elves What do you think ? should we issue a poll ?
Alac Luin 04-09-07, 09:18 PM	- a new colony/force from Luskan ? or Calimport ? i really don't know just ideas I posted a similar idea on candlekeep awhile back, Lord Drakosa , a Calishite, is the is the major land owner in Helmsport (according to LoI). My idea, Calimport sent troops to support Drakosa with the native unrest within Helmsport. Wipe out, Cordell (finally assassinated, Lord-Governor needed.. Drakosa?) This would help break the Cordell/Cortez parallels. It can also give Calimport control over Helmsport, Amn did have a war that could have lessened their grip on Helmsport. I'm not sure we should expand on new colonies, but detail the natives better (at least that is my approach) - Some consequnces of the Rage Of Dragons (maybe one or two episodes of rampaging dragons but nothing more) Dragons don't have much lore in Maztica (or MezoAmerica Mythology). The Rage would have little effect, as it is written. Not sure which way this will go, so I have little opinion, :) - The construction of a secret portal between Waterdeep and New Waterdeep (or maybe the start of works) Believable, I'll support. - The consequences of the plothooks exposed in Lands Of Intrigue with a progressive increase of skirmishes between New Waterdeep and Helmsport Not against. - The formation of an Eldreth Veluuthra cell within the Maztican Wild Elves These wild elves have even been shown to be hostile to other elves. Not saying this is impossible, just troublesome:) I'm investigateing MesoAmerican Mythology right now So I may have a few things to add in that manner. I'll also brag that I just won the Maztica Trilogy of novels on E-bay.
lavekkia 04-10-07, 10:35 AM	Ok the idea of Cordell assasination is good to me but it would definitely require a poll. Regarding the Rage of Dragons: true but i think that a couple of green and black dragons would not ruin the setting (Just make it a bit more grounded with the rest of the world). Also consider that in Maztica there are a plenty of gold so... Eldreth Veluutra: i did not consider that point; maybe situation has changed i don't know. I would like to throw in some other deas but i have no one ATM. I ll try to think about it. I have found this: http://rom.rpgs.sytes.net/ we could use it for illustrations if we could have permission; also if someone own the NWN module he could take some other screenshots
Eladrinstar 04-10-07, 04:13 PM	I just downloaded lands of intrigue so I will be still be updating the timeline. I will be extremely busy these next two weeks, so it may take a while Have you noticed when they made Maztica, they seemed terrified to have anything that did not exist in Mesoamerica historically or mythologically. We can't have this mindset. It is what killed Maztica in the first place.
lavekkia 04-10-07, 06:41 PM	I just downloaded lands of intrigue so I will be still be updating the timeline. I will be extremely busy these next two weeks, so it may take a while Have you noticed when they made Maztica, they seemed terrified to have anything that did not exist in Mesoamerica historically or mythologically. We can't have this mindset. It is what killed Maztica in the first place. Agreed. Another idea: Skull holes to cure some states of illness. Maybe to grant a bonus on exorcisms; or other nasty things like this :) Last minute addition: i have found a little cross reference to Maztica on page 165 of Underdark; it seems that a colony of stingers migrated from there to a cavern beneath Amn
Alac Luin 04-10-07, 08:20 PM	Last minute addition: i have found a little cross reference to Maztica on page 165 of Underdark; it seems that a colony of stingers migrated from there to a cavern beneath Amn This is also in the Stinger entry in Monsters of Faerun. It appears that stingers are rather common in there.
MarkusTay63 04-12-07, 06:53 PM	I have been some writing on the Jungles of Malatra (kara-Tur), but getting anything official from old RPGA sources is like pulling teeth. I may be of some help though with this project though, because Malatra DOES have Witch-doctors, and I was working up a generic set of rules for primitive-type spell casters, based on druids and shamans, but more customizable going by tribe or local conditions. I will look at what I have and try to finish it up. I have also been doing a little bit on Anchorome (VERY little, mostly just ideas), but I may have 'something' useful. I've expanded the Celestial Bureaucracy to now cover the region to the south of KT(Petan), as well as parts of Anchorome (real-world Amerinds supposedly migrated from the Orient via the Bearing Strait, so I'm thinking something similar for the indegenous human tribes). When you take a close look at them, American-Indian beliefs parrallel much of Chinese Mythology, so saying that some Anchorome deities are just KT deities in different guises works VERY well. The "Great Spirit" = the Celestial Emperor, etc... Anyhow, I know Anchorome is somewhat North of the region this thread is really about, but I have the god known in KT as "Mad Monkey" also being the same power as "Raven" in Anchorome. I'm sure he could be worked into a Maztican Pantheon as well, even though the mythology of that region is pretty laid-out in the books. But things change, especially AFTER the ToT... ;) I would like the idea that the 'old gods' of Maztica are being "pushed aside" by other, more vigorous pantheons, and that they are fighting a desperate (losing?) battle to remain in control of their area of influence. Besides the new Faerūn gods, they also have to contend with the powerful Celestial Bureaucracy that now holds sway in the North, and the Katashakan (Nyambe) pantheon pushing up from the south. I like the idea that like their worshippers, the Maztican Pantheon is 'under siege'. :) Kukul, their creator god (Ometeotl in Aztec) fits well with Ao, and I believe that Gray Richardson (I could be wrong here) postulated that Maztica (the earth-mother goddess of said area) could be an aspect of Chauntea, or even the older Jannath. Since those two are basically out of the picture that works. Quotal is obviously Quetzalcoatl, and Ubtao could be looking to acquire his portfolio (since they both rule Coutls) and could even play out that Zaltec is Sseth in another guise, forever at war with Ubtao/Quotal in all of their incarnations. This all depends on if you want to have Faerūnian deities here. Another take could be that the ENTIRE pantheon of Maztican gods are the Draconic Pantheon, with Io being Kukul. This might work out better, since many of these gods have a serpentine aspect and the Draconic Pantheon doesn't really have a 'home' in the Realms. Might be interesting to tie this area into the origins of the various dragons species. If you go this route then the god Mad Monkey/Raven could triple as Nathair Sgiathach, the Fey/Draconic trickster god, but would be called Nula here. That Maztican god is usually depicted as a female monkey - but hey, Mad Monkey IS a trickster after all. Just figure I'd toss out some of the ideas I've had concerning this regions deities, do with it what you will. :)
lavekkia 04-12-07, 07:38 PM	Quite a change; sounds good to me but a poll could be needed to settle the matter.
MarkusTay63 04-12-07, 11:16 PM	Which? Using some of the existing Faerūn gods as interlopers, or using the Draconic Pantheon as the 'powers' behind the names? I guess we could even do both, but that might be over-complicating things here. I figure using Nyambe straight out of the book for Katashaka only because that is what Ed himself has reccomended. I've only given a tiny bit of thought to the area North of Maztica (Anchorome) only because I know YOU have stuff for that region Lavekkia. Aside from a colony of Wa (or was it Kozakura?), have you given any other thoughts about Anchorome Lav? I've been avoiding thinking about it because I don't want to conflict with anything you may have come up with. Chow for now. ;)
lavekkia 04-13-07, 07:24 AM	Which? Using some of the existing Faerūn gods as interlopers, or using the Draconic Pantheon as the 'powers' behind the names? I guess we could even do both, but that might be over-complicating things here. I figure using Nyambe straight out of the book for Katashaka only because that is what Ed himself has reccomended. I've only given a tiny bit of thought to the area North of Maztica (Anchorome) only because I know YOU have stuff for that region Lavekkia. Aside from a colony of Wa (or was it Kozakura?), have you given any other thoughts about Anchorome Lav? I've been avoiding thinking about it because I don't want to conflict with anything you may have come up with. Chow for now. ;) Ehm, i have close to nothing about Anchorome :P I wrote something for Katashaka; basically climate some geographical features and some description of people. The colony is from Wa and it has direct communication via a portal with the city of Liso. The colony is a secret facility and R & D site for spelljamming "technology" On the gods subject: Gray Richardson postulated that Chauntea had a different aspect for every continent (So Chauntea in Faerun, Maztica in... well Maztica :) , Haso - Mu in Katashaka something else in Zakhara and Osse and Ahchrome). I would envision 2 exceptions: Kara - Tur where the celestial Bureucracy supplanted her with the Dragons and Myrmydune where i have some secret plan in mind ;) Katashaka has (at least in my mind) the Faerunian gods as interlopers (well in fact the Katashaka pantheon is very very small - 5 maybe 7 gods - and i would like to keep it as is), Maztica could have Draconic gods plus its old dying pantheon.
The Ubbergeek 04-16-07, 07:35 PM	I have some ideas about Anchorome, myself - but a bit different.... A cultural world made from 'stolen' greyhawkians, a culture born from enslaved descendants of the four main cultures of Oerth mixed with local natives - the result is like the region from where Conan the Barbarian came with Métis influences albeit a bit more advanced technicaly, with a reduced and united oerthan pantheon.
lavekkia 04-17-07, 07:14 AM	Me too; i was thinking about expanding on the Tri Kreen tribes; and confirming the Maztican myth of flying cities hinted in the Manual. I would like not to use the already abused "far waway from home" Netherese Enclave. I was planning to have a new, epic magic crafted, flying city. Another option i liked but never worked on was a survived Jhaamdath city saved by a psychoportive epic power similar to the one that destroyed Dhlinnilith (sp ?); obviously this one must have had success ;) The city however did not survived unscathed: it's slightly out of phase with Prime Material and floats 150 ft off the ground sustained by the residual energies of the epic power which are continually reamplified by the city's Udoxia. I think however that we should leave Anchrome, Osse and Katashaka aside for now; after all this is a Maztica thread. Of course our conversion will have to deal with them at least briefly.
The Ubbergeek 04-17-07, 12:32 PM	Sorry to ask, but what is Katashaka - the continent to the south of Maztica? I may have missed it. ^^;
lavekkia 04-17-07, 01:48 PM	Sorry to ask, but what is Katashaka - the continent to the south of Maztica? I may have missed it. ^^; It s "half canon" (that is it s not canon but probably will become so in the near future) but yes that s that continent. Search for the "Grand History Of The Realms" on the net; a great netbook BTW
MarkusTay63 04-17-07, 11:01 PM	And coming to a store near you... ;) I guess great minds think alike, I have a flying city (hovering, actually), where the Giants in Grey (K-T) live. It's in Osse BTW. :D Except for the gods, most of whom have already vanished, I think the only other major change to this region would be some new settlements, several of which would be further north in Anchorome (I believe that is where New Waterdeep is located). Also, greatly increased pirate activity, with emigrants from the Nelanther living in a small chain of islands off the coast, that live by robbing the gold-laden ships heading back to Faerūn.
Alac Luin 04-18-07, 01:38 PM	Except for the gods, most of whom have already vanished, I think the only other major change to this region would be some new settlements, several of which would be further north in Anchorome (I believe that is where New Waterdeep is located). New Waterdeep is not that far north, it is slightly north and further west. See "Lands of Intrigue" Book 2 Amn pg 63 (pg 166 of the .pdf) for the map.
MarkusTay63 04-18-07, 03:18 PM	K, thanks for that, I wasn't sure.
lavekkia 04-18-07, 05:52 PM	A Luskan colony ? Or Calimport ? Or from Halruaa (Skyship would be useful) ?
The Ubbergeek 04-18-07, 06:44 PM	It is to remember that lantan have claimed a right on lands, i heard. Maybe the gnomes will make a new amsterdam somewhere....
Ancient_DM 04-28-07, 12:07 AM	Last year I bought the Aztec d20 book by Avalanche Press. It has very detailed historical background and some nice touches. The Eagle and Jaguar Knight PrC's are nice. The broken class is the Nagaual (Sorcerer). At higher levels they can bend reality to their will (!??!). And it uses D&D 3.0 It's cheap on eBay and you can also buy the pdf at Drivethrurpg.com
MarkusTay63 04-28-07, 01:44 PM	They wouldn't have the Hishna Shapers and Pluma Weavers too, would they? That would save quite a bit of work, and then it would only be a matter of assigning things in that source to FR-specific locales and personages. I plan on doing exactly that where Katashaka is concerned, since Ed Greenwood has stated that Nyambe is perfectly suited for that continent. A lot easier then writing everything from scratch, know what I mean?
The Ubbergeek 04-28-07, 02:38 PM	Well, the Maztican box could be used to do so, and there was a website (looking like comatous, sadly) who worked on it. But if it's good inspiration, well... Random point - Raptoran could fit in Anchorome and Maztica, maybe - the legacy of the birdlike creator race. (from another thread)
MarkusTay63 04-28-07, 03:04 PM	I've seen that site, and it looked like an excellent start. Too bad it didn't go anywhere. :( Random point - Raptoran could fit in Anchorome and Maztica, maybe - the legacy of the birdlike creator race. (from another thread)I would place them AND the Pterraman, and say that is why the Saruhk first created them, to counter the Aeriee's flight capabilities. Remember, the creator races were walking around BEFORE the elves went and broke the world (the sundering). It would be intriguiing to have the two (Raptorans and Pterramen) fighting a millenia-old war, and not even remember why. Also, it was pointed out to me in two other threads that there were Drow present in Maztica, but that they didn't worship Lolth. I am doing something for the Elven Netbook, and plan on placing two(?) different groups in this region, which will be a nice cross-over from one project to another.
Alac Luin 04-28-07, 06:40 PM	Random point - Raptoran could fit in Anchorome and Maztica, maybe - the legacy of the birdlike creator race. (from another thread) On this note, we already have the Aarakocra (see Monsters of Faerun) that fit the bird like creator race legacy. (not saying we "cant", just that we already do have something that relates.) There is also the monster "Chac", (I think thats the name) that is somewhat similar.
The Ubbergeek 04-28-07, 07:20 PM	True, true.
lavekkia 04-28-07, 07:38 PM	They wouldn't have the Hishna Shapers and Pluma Weavers too, would they? That would save quite a bit of work, and then it would only be a matter of assigning things in that source to FR-specific locales and personages. I plan on doing exactly that where Katashaka is concerned, since Ed Greenwood has stated that Nyambe is perfectly suited for that continent. A lot easier then writing everything from scratch, know what I mean? On a side note: it s known that pluma magic does not draw upon the weave; what about talon magic ?
Alac Luin 04-28-07, 07:41 PM	On a side note: it s known that pluma magic does not draw upon the weave; what about talon magic ? Where is it stated pluma magic does not draw on the weave? I've always seen it as just a different tradition of magic.
MarkusTay63 04-28-07, 07:41 PM	How can that be possible? It would totally go against everything that has been written about Mystra being in absolute control of ALL magic in Realmspace. But if that IS true, then you just opened up a VERY interesting door... :smirk: On this note, we already have the Aarakocra (see Monsters of Faerun) that fit the bird like creator race legacy. (not saying we "cant", just that we already do have something that relates.) There is also the monster "Chac", (I think thats the name) that is somewhat similar.Nothing wrong with their being dozens of 'progeny', that's exactly the reason they are called the CREATOR races. I'm doing a big piece on how the Rakshasa created most of the feline races, but can't be considered a 'creator' race because of their outsider heritage. I'm even going so far as to explain why the tabaxi (leopard folk) are named after the Tabaxi (indegenious natives of Chult, and originally from 'that big island west of Zakhara'). Snake-people, cat-people, bird-people, shapeshifting amphibious people... even dog-people! It's all good, Having a dozen different Avian races fits perfectly well in FR.
Alac Luin 04-28-07, 08:37 PM	Also, it was pointed out to me in two other threads that there were Drow present in Maztica, but that they didn't worship Lolth. I am doing something for the Elven Netbook, and plan on placing two(?) different groups in this region, which will be a nice cross-over from one project to another. I missed this earlier, or I would have commented then, These drow traveled under the ocean to Maztica, got cut off from Faerun during a war with the Dwarves (drow collapsed the tunnels). The Drow turned to the worship of Zaltac. Lolth came and turned them all into driders as far as I know. I'm reading the novels at the moment, so I'm not sure how it all turns out as I have not reached that part of the story. BTW: Has the OP been back to this thread? I have not seen them in awhile.
MarkusTay63 04-28-07, 08:46 PM	Does it matter? We're having fun. :D Anyhow, LK just gave me that info too, but there is some 'traces' of the Drow elsewhere (according to the module City of Gold, so it would be a safe bet that Lolth only messed with the one group she found. I'm not sure why that first group turned from Lolth, since demi-human Pantheons are obviously allowed to 'cross-over' into other god's spheres of influence. Could be they just finally were able to throw off her yoke, though. There were also a group of dwarves that got trapped when the tunnels colapsed, but that was only about 2-300 years ago. The text states that the language and customs have changed quite a bit, but that doesn't make much sense given the dwarves life spans. So what I am thinking is that these two incidents are conected and happened around a thousand years ago, which would be a time-compromise. Some Dwarves wound up getting trapped by their own cave-in, sacrificing themselves to protect the others. Much more epic feel that way, and it ties two different things together neatly.
Alac Luin 04-28-07, 09:32 PM	It was the same instance that trapped the dwarves and the drow in Maztica. During the war, the drow used something called "Darkfyre" that burned down tunnels until the ocean flooded the caverns. The Dwarves' language changed from contact with the natives and environment change. They are now surface dwellers and needed new words to describe the new environment. I'd still say the desert dwarf language is at least 80% understandable to a Faerun Dwarf. On the Drow, what really happened is Lolth turned away from those drow, most likely because of not really winning the war with the dwarves. Drow, being pragmatic, found and exploited a new source of power, Zaltec and his clergy. I assume Lolth "forgets" about them, or gave them enough rope to hang themselves, and punishes them by turning them into driders when her attention is drawn to them. I have seen no reference to drow in "city of gold", but this does not mean there may be some others that escaped the drider thing.
Mazaron 04-28-07, 11:11 PM	I was thinking about Kara-Tur, the redux. I would wish so much to help, but unfortunately I cannot as I know next to nothing of Kara-Tur :( . But I do have the Maztica books, downloaded on this very site. The challenge is to make a good, living, breathing, and interesting campaign setting. And convert to 3.5. My question is: Who would like to participate. You must have the Maztica books or dowloaded version. If you would like to help, post that you would like too. But don't post any Maztica info yet. I can't help with the 3.5 part, but I used Maztica and the continent to the south, Lopango, quite a bit in my FR campaign. I created a number of new monsters but again, all in 2E format. One of my current campaigns is set in Lopango, albeit a million years in the past (time travel). I had created some treants for Maztica based on North American trees, like the mangrove and pecan, a new series of faerie called the skippers (which had many subraces), a sentient monkey race called the tamarin, and several dragon like creatures such as the kelp dragon. If anyone wants I could dig them up and at least post the ideas behind them. I have read some about neotropical animals and precolumbian civlizations so I would be l glad to help others.
Mazaron 04-28-07, 11:14 PM	Since the timeline stops at 1369 DR (at if we what do we plan for these last 6 years ? Aside from an expnasion of the colonies; what major events could have happened ? we have complete freedom; so throw in ideas :) I would like to see: - a new colony/force from Luskan ? or Calimport ? i really don't know I had the Lantanese active in Maztica along with the Amn, Lantan was England to Amn being Spanish. - The formation of an Eldreth Veluuthra cell within the Maztican Wild Elves What do you think ? should we issue a poll ? I have no idea what you mean by this cell, what is that?
Mazaron 04-28-07, 11:18 PM	[QUOTE=Alac Luin;12039908]just ideas I'm not sure we should expand on new colonies, but detail the natives better (at least that is my approach) If only to have a means of context where western adventurers could be hailing from and use as a means of supply, as a base. Dragons don't have much lore in Maztica (or MezoAmerica Mythology). The Rage would have little effect, as it is written. Not sure which way this will go, so I have little opinion, :) The original boxed set mentioned Rain Dragons, but never detailed them. I created several subsentient dragon types for Maztica but they were basically large reptilian beasts, not true dragons. Tim
Mazaron 04-28-07, 11:21 PM	It s "half canon" (that is it s not canon but probably will become so in the near future) but yes that s that continent. Search for the "Grand History Of The Realms" on the net; a great netbook BTW The original boxed set map had a land marked as Lopango to the south. I took that to be the northern area of South America and expanded it as such in my campaign, creating analogues for the Incas, Amazon river and rain forest, and Andes. Of course, the PCs only got to a small portion of the northeastern coast and rain forest, not much beyond that.
Mazaron 04-28-07, 11:23 PM	It is to remember that lantan have claimed a right on lands, i heard. Maybe the gnomes will make a new amsterdam somewhere.... Lantan was big in my Maztica. They didn't have large areas settled like Amn did but more small coastal settlements for trade. I had a East India like trading company called Great Western as the folks in charge of Lantanese activity in Maztica and Lopango. They hired adventurers - my PCs - for various missions.
lavekkia 04-29-07, 08:11 AM	Where is it stated pluma magic does not draw on the weave? I've always seen it as just a different tradition of magic. A note about Ed Greenwood on Candlekeep. And it s not the only example. I have no idea what you mean by this cell, what is that? A group of elves affiliated with Eldreeth Veluuthra that "convert" local wild elves.
MarkusTay63 04-29-07, 09:49 AM	Personally, I have no problem placing all things draconic in maztica, and even alluded earlier that the Maztican gods have a 'reptilian' look to them, so they may just be the draconic pantheon operating under aliases. With the whole human sacrifice thing, it would make sense. @Mazaron- The Lopango were an ethnic group, and that region was probably just named after them. The official name for that continent is Katashaka (or at least it will be FULLY official, once GHotR comes out at the end of the year). The continent to the North is Anchorome, BTW. I believe only three of the four large islands have not been officially or at least psuedo-officially named. It was the same instance that trapped the dwarves and the drow in Maztica. During the war, the drow used something called "Darkfyre" that burned down tunnels until the ocean flooded the caverns. The Dwarves' language changed from contact with the natives and environment change. They are now surface dwellers and needed new words to describe the new environment. I'd still say the desert dwarf language is at least 80% understandable to a Faerun Dwarf. On the Drow, what really happened is Lolth turned away from those drow, most likely because of not really winning the war with the dwarves. Drow, being pragmatic, found and exploited a new source of power, Zaltec and his clergy. I assume Lolth "forgets" about them, or gave them enough rope to hang themselves, and punishes them by turning them into driders when her attention is drawn to them. I have seen no reference to drow in "city of gold", but this does not mean there may be some others that escaped the drider thing.The 'ancients' were Drow (from the novels), and all references to the 'ancients' seems to put the Drow back at least 1000 years, yet the dwarves arrived there much more recently. So which is it? If the Drow arrived around the same time as the Dwarves, calling them the 'Ancients' seems a bit silly, no?
Mazaron 04-29-07, 10:22 AM	@Mazaron- The Lopango were an ethnic group, and that region was probably just named after them. The official name for that continent is Katashaka (or at least it will be FULLY official, once GHotR comes out at the end of the year). The continent to the North is Anchorome, BTW. I believe only three of the four large islands have not been officially or at least psuedo-officially named. ***I had not accountered either name before, thanks. We have been using Lopango for years in my campaign so I don't see any reason to change, but I will try to remember that. What is GHotR? Where did you see Anchrome and Katashaka?
Iakhovas 04-29-07, 10:58 AM	Just as a point of clarification, Lopango is still the name of the region south of the Gulf of Qotal. It is part of the same continental shelf as Maztica (and Anchorome) but the native Olman peoples refer to it simply as Lopango. Across the Strait of Lopango, lies the continent of Katashaka, ancestral come of the Tabaxi, Eschowe, and Thinguth peoples. The Olman are described briefly in the Savage Tide Conversion 3 notes by Eric Boyd found here: http://paizo.com/dungeonissues/SavageTide/SavageTideConversion3.pdf It turns out the Mazticans discovered mainland Faerūn long before Faerūn discovered Maztica. Enjoy!
Mazaron 04-29-07, 11:07 AM	Just as a point of clarification, Lopango is still the name of the region south of the Gulf of Qotal. It is part of the same continental shelf as Maztica (and Anchorome) but the native Olman peoples refer to it simply as Lopango. Across the Strait of Lopango, lies the continent of Katashaka, ancestral come of the Tabaxi, Eschowe, and Thinguth peoples. The Olman are described briefly in the Savage Tide Conversion 3 notes by Eric Boyd found here: http://paizo.com/dungeonissues/SavageTide/SavageTideConversion3.pdf It turns out the Mazticans discovered mainland Faerūn long before Faerūn discovered Maztica. Enjoy! Thanks, good to know the name at least is still around. I never knew for sure if was a seperate continent or not, but I DMed as being such. The Tabaxi, the cat people?
Alac Luin 04-29-07, 04:56 PM	A note about Ed Greenwood on Candlekeep. And it s not the only example. Ah found it.... "Weave is the predominant and “most correct” (and thus, most powerful) means of harnessing natural energies: in other words, it is magic but it’s not the ONLY magic (as evidenced by the Shadow Weave and other, less-powerful alternatives to the Weave: table magic, pluma magic, etc.)." posted 27th of September 2005 This does go against published Realms, but I stand corrected. Next time someone has an issue with pluma magic, I'll tell them the only person that can answer that question is Ed Greenwood. :) The 'ancients' were Drow (from the novels), and all references to the 'ancients' seems to put the Drow back at least 1000 years, yet the dwarves arrived there much more recently. I know the "ancient ones" in the novels are drow, but that does not necessarily mean that the "ancients" in City of Gold are also Drow. There is a decent amount of space between the two areas. Also, 1000 years ago, the drow known as "Ancient Ones" in the novels were Lolth worshiping underdark dwellers. (also notice a small difference in terms, it can be just semantics or it can be more) But this does not necessarily say that Esh Alakar was not drow manufacture, the only people that may know are the Poscadar Elves, and they are not talking. There is also a difference in "arriving in a general area" (which has never been dated for either group) and "becoming separated from a distant area" (which is what happened 200 or so years ago). It was the collapsing of the caverns that drove the groups to the surface, most likely from nearby underdark areas. ("nearby" being a relative term). So which is it? If the Drow arrived around the same time as the Dwarves, calling them the 'Ancients' seems a bit silly, no? It's not the Dwarves that gave them the name "Ancient Ones". It was the Human Zaltec worshipers. In this, it was more likely the way the Drow presented themselves to the humans then anything else.. "We are the Ancient Ones, and we are here on behalf of Zaltec, he is unhappy and he wants more human sacrifices to appease him..." If a dwarf called them "ancient ones", they were just using the humans' term. I am reading the series now and so far the ONLY dwarf that mentions them does in fact call them Drow while speaking of the war that collapsed the caverns. So, basically, I've yet to see an instance of a dwarf calling them "Ancient Ones" or anything similar.
MarkusTay63 04-30-07, 04:28 PM	It does go as far to say that the Proscador Elves go out of their way to avoid Esh Alakar, leading me to believe that they are indeed Drow ruins from a pre-historic period, perhaps even pre-descent. Thanks for catching that semantic difference, I was getting my info second hand from the novels and handn't realized their was some slight diferential made between the two. Thanks, good to know the name at least is still around. I never knew for sure if was a seperate continent or not, but I DMed as being such. The Tabaxi, the cat people?The Tabaxi living in katashaka, the continent south of Lopango, are human, and are of the same exact racial stock as Chultan. The Tabaxi living on the large island west of Zakhara were brought to Chult many years ago (by Ubtao), and according to the 2e Chult supplemet there may have been some mix-up by Faerūnian natives when they first encountered the jaguar warriors, thinking them the cat people named Tabaxi and hence using that term. That was supposition, so I came up with something a little better for some history I'm doing. The original rulers of zakhara were Rakshasa, having arrived on Abeir-Toril around 35,000 years ago. They created a servitor race, the Rakasta, who looked very much like them but were mortal and native to the Prime material plane, and they summoned hundreds of genies to serve them as well. They had a war with the Saruhk and Yuan-ti (insert MUCH history here) over the northern jungles that lasted for untold centuries, with both sides breeding new races and summoning extra-planar help. The Rakshasa suffered a major defeat when the Saruhk used epic magic to burst the bonds holding the genies in thrall, and the Rakshasa had to flee their own lands to the islands east of Zakhara. The genies, for their part, took over the former Rashasa lands and many of them still live there. Over the next 2 millenium, the Rakshasa rebuilt their forces MANY times, and created many cat-races by inter-breeding the locals with the Rakasta slaves (all sub-species of Rakasta are in dragon #247, and I think the Leopard ones were called Pardasta). Since this was before the sundering, the human Tabaxi still lived in the jungles to the west, and the Rakshasa admired their strength and courage. They captured an entire village and using magic transformed them into leopard-like cat-man. The Rakshasa called them Pardasta, but these people still called themselves by their tribal name - the Tabaxi. And that is why, according to some legends, the cat-folk are sometimes known as Tabaxi. ;) Thats a very basic piece of a larger article, and I even cover some language cross-referencing. The name Rakasta actually comes from the Rakshasa tongue and means Ra'Kasta - "Thrall of the Rakshasa", with 'Ra' referring to their Rakshasa owners', and 'Kasta' meaning 'Thrall' in Abyssal. That is one of the great jokes of the fiends - Demogogon literaly named his lizard-like race of servants, the Kaasta, "slave". If the Saruhk only knew... All conjecture on my part, but a lot of work went into having it all be very logical.
Alac Luin 04-30-07, 04:44 PM	It does go as far to say that the Proscador Elves go out of their way to avoid Esh Alakar, leading me to believe that they are indeed Drow ruins from a pre-historic period, perhaps even pre-descent. Thanks for catching that semantic difference, I was getting my info second hand from the novels and handn't realized their was some slight diferential made between the two. I just re-read the section on Esh Alakar, it looks like they switched between calling them "Ancients", and "Ancient Ones". So any semantics I may have picked up on is now out the window. :) So, it may be the Drow were trying to pose as these peoples. City of Gold pg 74 (76 of the .pdf) "The original inhabitants may have been elves, humans, half-elves, or some other race you may wish to develop. They destroyed themselves in a bitter, magical war,<snip>" So, we can develop them as we wish Pre-descent Drow? Maybe it's just me, but I'm intrigued :)
Mazaron 04-30-07, 08:14 PM	The Tabaxi living in katashaka, the continent south of Lopango, are human, and are of the same exact racial stock as Chultan. The Tabaxi living on the large island west of Zakhara were brought to Chult many years ago (by Ubtao), and according to the 2e Chult supplemet there may have been some mix-up by Faerūnian natives when they first encountered the jaguar warriors, thinking them the cat people named Tabaxi and hence using that term. That was supposition, so I came up with something a little better for some history I'm doing. **Very interesting, but I never imagined the Chultans to be of the same stock as the Katashakans. The original rulers of zakhara were Rakshasa, having arrived on Abeir-Toril around 25,000 years ago. They created a servitor race, the Rakasta, who looked very much like them but were mortal and native to the Prime material plane, and they summoned hundreds of genies to serve them as well. They had a war with the saruhk (insert MUCH history here) over the northern jungles that lasted for untold centuries, with both sides breeding new races and summoning extra-planar help. The Rakshaka suffered a major defeat when the saruhk used epic magic to burst the bonds holding the genies in thrall, and the Rakshasa had to flee their own lands to the islands east of Zakhara. The genies, for their part, took over the former Rashasa lands and many of them still live there. **I remember the rakasta from the old Isle of Dread module (the writer of which I saw recently passed away, sad to say). Good catch on that, using the rakasta as related to the rakshasha. Over the next 2 millenium, the rakshasa rebuilt their forces MANY times, and created many cat-races by inter-breeding the locals with the Rakasta slaves (all sub-species of Rakasta are in dragon #247, and I think the Leopard ones were called Perdasta). Since this was before the sundering, the human Tabaxi still lived in the jungles to the west, and the Rakshasa admired their strength and courage. They captured an entire village and using magic transformed them into leopard-like cat-man. The Rakshasta called them Perdasta(?), but, but these people still called themselves by their tribal name - the Tabaxi. **What subspecies were there? All conjecture on my part, but a lot of work went into having it all be very logical.[/QUOTE] **Hmmm, not too many species here....:) Your use of the variouis species, subspecies is quite logical, good back history. For whatever it is worth I created a sentient, now tree dweller man-sized primate race called the Tamarin. Long story short, they once had a technological civilization that spanned all of Toril but in a cataclysm a million years ago were nearly destroyed. Pure Tamarins remains as peaceful, druidic jungle folk with no memory they had once reached the stars. Two subraces splilntered off, the ettercaps (which were evil) and a Kara-Tur race, whose name escapes me at the moment but were basically at least in 1E sentient orangutans.
MarkusTay63 05-01-07, 05:18 PM	@Alac Luin - I have also been going over those sources, and although it doesn't mention the Esh-Alakarins being non-human, it also doesn't mention aything to the contrary. Lots of leeway there. Now I'm thinking One original pre-descent culture that followed the Seldarine. After the descent curse changed them all, they lost their faith in their gods and turned to others. This led to a split of at least three different cultures, at least one of which venerated Tiamet. Since in RW Mythology Tiamet was responsible for the creation of the scorpionmen, we now have some sort of tie-in to the T'lincallis. Don't have any details yet, but all of these groups will have been 'The Ancients', and the newer group that was involved with Nexal (and the Dwarves) recently is a totally seperate entity, and most likely used the name 'Ancient Ones' after finding out about the local myths. **Very interesting, but I never imagined the Chultans to be of the same stock as the Katashakans.That part was NOT supposition. Originally, the Tabaxi were always in Chult (not Katashaka). Once an Africa-like continent was added with 3e, there needed to be some sort of explanation why there are tribal nubian-type peoples living in seperate parts of the world, hence the explanation that Ubtao brought them over from that large nameless land mass south of Evermeet. That would have all been fine and good, but in Bryan James's GHotR he contradicts canon and places them on the main continent, Katashaka, so now we wind up with Tabaxi in THREE regions. Hope they correct that before it becomes official. Either way, Ed Greenwood has said that the Nyambe rules are pretty much how he envisioned that continent, and reccomends using them. I will, at some point in the future be doing a Katashaka map, placing all of the Nyambe cultures and regions onto it. There are a few 'discrepencies' when using the map from that source, which is what inspires me to do a map that blends the two seemlessly. **I remember the rakasta from the old Isle of Dread module (the writer of which I saw recently passed away, sad to say). Good catch on that, using the rakasta as related to the rakshasha.They are actually originally from Mystara, and since many of the wonderful creatures from that world have already made the switch to FR (Aranea,Avariel), I figure it was a no-brainer. I always wanted to write somethig connecting them to the Rakshasa, because of the name similarities, and I have some sort of 'primordial war' in mind between felines and reptiles, perhaps tying it into a multi-spherical conflict between Bast and Set (as per 2e P&P). That would give me further Yuan-ti/Sarrukh tie-ins through Set, and also give me some sort of ancient reason for the 'Ra' in Rakshasa. Still working on that one, though. **What subspecies were there? They were the leopard Rakasta, which would work out exactly the same as the Tabaxi. I believe they were called the Pardasta in Dragon #147, but I don't have any of my sources with me right now. there were many species in that mag, so I figure sprinkle a few into the kara-Tur stuff, a couple in here, and a few more (the domstic ones?) into the Zakhara region eventually. The cat people in Savage Species are useable for someone just wanting a quick encounter, but really seperate (updated) rules are required for each sub-species. we can probably find that on a Mystara site. There was also a cat lord in the Dragon Compendium which I will tie-in as well. **Hmmm, not too many species here....:) Your use of the variouis species, subspecies is quite logical, good back history. For whatever it is worth I created a sentient, now tree dweller man-sized primate race called the Tamarin. Long story short, they once had a technological civilization that spanned all of Toril but in a cataclysm a million years ago were nearly destroyed. Pure Tamarins remains as peaceful, druidic jungle folk with no memory they had once reached the stars. Two subraces splilntered off, the ettercaps (which were evil) and a Kara-Tur race, whose name escapes me at the moment but were basically at least in 1E sentient orangutans.The Vanara? I don't have my sources handy, and I'm not sure if that was the name used in 1e KT. I like your ideas of a plant-like race; could be worth a whole period of history BEFORE the Days of Thunder, and would explain the many sentient and mobile plant species.
Iakhovas 05-01-07, 08:17 PM	I think you may have things mixed up a bit Markus. The psuedo-Africa continent has been there since TSR introduced it in 2nd-Edition. This continent has always been the land from which the Tabaxi (and Eshowe, and Thinguth) people originated. I'm unclear which third region you're referring to. That part was NOT supposition. Originally, the Tabaxi were always in Chult (not Katashaka). Once an Africa-like continent was added with 3e, there needed to be some sort of explanation why there are tribal nubian-type peoples living in seperate parts of the world, hence the explanation that Ubtao brought them over from that large nameless land mass south of Evermeet. That would have all been fine and good, but in Bryan James's GHotR he contradicts canon and places them on the main continent, Katashaka, so now we wind up with Tabaxi in THREE regions. Hope they correct that before it becomes official.
Iakhovas 05-01-07, 08:21 PM	You're going to have to produce a quote for this one. In my experience Ed Greenwood has no love for the 'extra' regions that were added to Faerūn during 2nd-Edition. I believe you may be referring to Eric Boyd and Tom Costa that have previously recommended Nyambe as a suitable replacement for this continent. Either way, Ed Greenwood has said that the Nyambe rules are pretty much how he envisioned that continent, and reccomends using them. I will, at some point in the future be doing a Katashaka map, placing all of the Nyambe cultures and regions onto it. There are a few 'discrepencies' when using the map from that source, which is what inspires me to do a map that blends the two seemlessly.
Old Sage 05-01-07, 08:35 PM	I have to agree with Brian on this one. I don't immediately recall Ed talking about "Nyambe" in his replies at Candlekeep. Tom Costa and Eric L Boyd on the other hand - "The only official African-esque setting is the Chultan penninsula, which as you point out isn't quite what you're looking for.... I know several folks (myself included) who transplanted Atlas Games' excellent Nyambe (with some tweaks), which also built off many of the old 2E articles in Dragon on African gaming, to the large undefined continent southwest of Nimbral and southeast of Maztica (see the FR Atlas CD-ROM). It also makes sense with the Anaconda refernce you mention, but I doubt we'll see an official African-esque setting as most non-European-esque setting don't seem to sell too well from what we've been told. So pick up Nyambe and watch the Shaka Zulu miniseries from the 80s and you'll be dying to play an African-based setting. I really can't say enough good things about how well conceived Nyambe is. Hey even Monte Cook gave it top grades." ... "Also, if you read the backstory of the Chultan peninsula in Serpent Kingdoms, you'll see further evidence of where the Africa-like continent of the Realms might lie (which is exactly where Tom Costa indicates in his previous post). I'd also vote for using Nyambe to detail this continent. --Eric"
Mazaron 05-01-07, 08:55 PM	Since in RW Mythology Tiamet was responsible for the creation of the scorpionmen, we now have some sort of tie-in to the T'lincallis. Don't have any details yet, but all of these groups will have been 'The Ancients', and the newer group that was involved with Nexal (and the Dwarves) recently is a totally seperate entity, and most likely used the name 'Ancient Ones' after finding out about the local myths. **Tiamat sure has branched out alot. The scorpionmen don't strike me as being draconic or particularly fiendish. I noticed in MM3 that Tiamat has lots and lots of ugly dragon beasties now working for her. That part was NOT supposition. Originally, the Tabaxi were always in Chult (not Katashaka). Once an Africa-like continent was added with 3e, there needed to be some sort of explanation why there are tribal nubian-type peoples living in seperate parts of the world, hence the explanation that Ubtao brought them over from that large nameless land mass south of Evermeet. That would have all been fine and good, but in Bryan James's GHotR he contradicts canon and places them on the main continent, Katashaka, so now we wind up with Tabaxi in THREE regions. Hope they correct that before it becomes official. **I never knew an African continet was added. There was an excellent series of Dragon magazine articles that detailed an African continent back in the mid to late 1990s (as well as kits for African classes) and they included info on where to place it on Toril, but it was not specifically FR. I also thought of Chult and the Black Jungles being African enough if I needed them and Toril had plenty of room for an African continent to be plopped in some where (and one was also hinted at in the Al-Qadim material) but I never knew there was an official one. So, sorry, forgive me for being dense, is Katashaka African or South American? Or both? With regards to seperate people, you have Arabian peoples in Zakhara (where they belong), Calimshan (IMC they were settled there millenia ago as part of a great interdimensional war, long story), and the Bedine in Anauroch (which I saw as not being Arab per se but the books seem to think so). Either way, Ed Greenwood has said that the Nyambe rules are pretty much how he envisioned that continent, and reccomends using them. I will, at some point in the future be doing a Katashaka map, placing all of the Nyambe cultures and regions onto it. There are a few 'discrepencies' when using the map from that source, which is what inspires me to do a map that blends the two seemlessly. ***So where can we find a Torilian Amazon River, Amazon rain forest, Incas, Jivaro headhunters, etc.? Is there no South America? I always wanted to write smethig connecting them to the Rakshasa, because of the name similarities, and I have some sort of 'primordial war' in mind between felines and reptiles, perhaps tying it into a multi-spherical conflict between Bast and Set (as per 2e P&P). That wouldgive me further Yuan-ti/Saruhk tie-ins throughset, and also give me some sort of ancient reason for the 'Ra' in Rakshasa. Still working on that one, though. ***I like the Bast-Set conflict idea. The Minions of Set rock, and there Sandstorm I saw has some Set-inspired races. I had two interplanar conflicts as having shaped my Faerun, the Orcgate Wars (which don't seem to be mentioned in recent books, please correct me if I am wrong), and the Lapaliiyans (I don't know how they are detailed NOW but when I was DMing and for years aftewards they were a big nation on the maps but not detailed at all; I made them the foothold of a nearly human race that had invaded from another planet, long story). They were the leopard rakasta, which would work out exactly the same as the Tabaxi. I believe they were called the Perdasta in Dragon #147, but I don't have any of my sources with me right now. there were many species in that mag, so I figure sprinkle a few into the kara-Tur stuff, a couple in here, and a few more (the domstic ones?) into the Zakhara region eventually. The cat people in Savage Species are useable for someone just wanting a quick encounter, but really seperate (updated) rules are required for eachsub-species. we can probably find that on a Mystara site. There wasalsoa cat lord in the Dragon Compendium which Iwill tie-in as well. ***147 you say? Is it worth trying to get? Any tiger or jaguar races? The Vanara? I don't have mysources handy, and I'm not sure if that was the name used in 1e KT. **Don't know the Vanara. I like your ideas of a plant-like race; could be worth a whole period of history BEFORE the Days of Thunder, and would explain the many sentient and mobile plant species.[/QUOTE] **Sorry, my mind is going, and I don't have all the ends and outs down about using these message boards, what plant race was I talking about? I was talking I thought about a primate-race, but I may have wandered far afield. I would love one day to do something with a plant race, maybe the needlefolk (love the 3E version!) or the myconids.
MarkusTay63 05-01-07, 09:19 PM	In answer to the first, I believe it is in the 'Chultan' entry in RoF that specifically states that that Ubtao took them from the large Island west of Zakhara. There is an island that fits that description perfectly. The continent you named katashaka is far too large to be cosidered an island. So now we have three different Tabaxi regions - Chult, katashaka, and 'the large island' mentioned, I believe, in RoF. Unfortunately, I'm doing this from memory and can't be 100% sure, because I'm at some one else's house for a few days and only have SK with me. I have no way of checking weather they (the Tabaxi) were from an Africa-like continent in 2e, I remember it as them having 'always been there' from the Chult accessory, but being one of my least favorite sources I could be remembering it wrong. However, I thought that particular land-mass was created for the world map in the FRCS. If it existed in canon somewhere earlier then that map then my apologies. Also, about the "Ed" thing, I could be mis-quoting there. The specific 'thing' I remember reading about the 'African area' was from the FR FAQ at Candlekeep. When a person asked what kind of creatures/races are there 'someone' replied with the Nyambe reference, which I could have sworn was Ed. If it was Eric or Tom then I'm sorry, it was an honest mistake. However, I would take a recomendation from either one of them to be 'as canon' as if the man himself said it. ;)
MarkusTay63 05-01-07, 10:05 PM	Tiamat sure has branched out alot. The scorpionmen don't strike me as being draconic or particularly fiendish. I noticed in MM3 that Tiamat has lots and lots of ugly dragon beasties now working for her. That is NOT FR canon, but rather from Babylonian mythology, where they are called "the children of Tiamet". So, sorry, forgive me for being dense, is Katashaka African or South American? Or both?It is a fantasy amalgam of both, reminiscent of Burrough's Tarzan novels, repleat with lost civiliztions, inteligent apes, and 'little people'. Most of the jungles we see in old 'Africa' movies were really filmed in South American, so we have the 'Hollywood' version, which really isn'y such a bad thing. Zakhara had a Jungle in the North-East, called the Sepadan, and it was large eough to stretch around and be on the Kara-Tur maps as well. So where can we find a Torilian Amazon River, Amazon rain forest, Incas, Jivaro headhunters, etc.? Is there no South America?Most of that would be in the Lopango region, part of Maztica and just north of katashaka. I like the Bast-Set conflict idea. The Minions of Set rock, and there Sandstorm I saw has some Set-inspired races.This connection is just in a conceptual stage right now, and tenuous at best. I'm coming up with a proto-cosmology, where there was a great war between the 'True' gods, many of whom got 'shattered', with pieces of them winding up in mutiple spheres. I figure Baast had something to do with creating the Rakshasa to fight on the side of Ra during the primordial war of light and darkness, but she used demons (or something similar) as the base and they turned on the Phaoronic Pantheon. I figure that 'war' later became 'reflected' in every reality somehow. Like I said, the connection isn't really thought out, my idea is just in its infancy and could be scrapped if desn't make enough sense to me. 147 you say? Is it worth trying to get? Any tiger or jaguar races? I don't have any of my resources with me, but I believe there were some 12+ sub-species of Rakasta discussed, and definately a Tiger (basic rakasta) and most likely a Jaguar, along with TWO leopard types. Don't know the Vanara.3e Oriental Adventures. Not sure if that was the name given the Baboon people in the older Kara-Tur source books, I'll have to check on that. Sorry, my mind is going, and I don't have all the ends and outs down about using these message boards, what plant race was I talking about? I was talking I thought about a primate-race, but I may have wandered far afield. I would love one day to do something with a plant race, maybe the needlefolk (love the 3E version!) or the myconids.My bad, I mis-read tree-dwelling as just 'tree'. Your idea is fine, but I would make them smaller, more like halfling size, to make them more interesting. Also, they should have folds of skin under their arms like a flying squirrel, so they could 'sail' from tree to tree. ;) A primordial plant race was still kinda cool though, even if it was just a mistake on my part. Like Day of the Trifids meets Little Shop of horrors. :D
Iakhovas 05-01-07, 10:17 PM	Double checking the entry you refer to in RoF p. 106, you are absolutely correct. It mentions a "great island in the southern seas of Abeir-Toril southeast of Maztica and southwest of Zakhara." I can certainly see where the confusion now comes from. Unfortunately, as you can see from Tom's quote (also backed up by Eric) earlier lore pointed to a continent as the birthplace of the Tabaxi, not a large island. And complicating matters further, there are actually two “great islands” southwest of Zakhara that could match the description. But as you already know, I sided with the continent south of Maztica as will be reflected in the Grand History. As with any contradiction in Realmslore, it’s up to you to decide whether the designer corrected a mistake or caused the mistake. Hopefully in this instance, it’s the former. :) In answer to the first, I believe it is in the 'Chultan' entry in RoF that specifically states that that Ubtao took them from the large Island west of Zakhara. There is an island that fits that description perfectly. The continent you named katashaka is far too large to be cosidered an island. So now we have three different Tabaxi regions - Chult, katashaka, and 'the large island' mentioned, I believe, in RoF. Unfortunately, I'm doing this from memory and can't be 100% sure, because I'm at some one else's house for a few days and only have SK with me.
MarkusTay63 05-01-07, 10:28 PM	Double checking the entry you refer to in RoF p. 106, you are absolutely correct. Thanks for that. I was wrong about the earlier 'Ed' quote, so it's good to know that my memory still has a couple good years left. :D When I read that about a week ago, I was as surprised as you, and had to re-read it. I had always assumed that Ubtao brought them over from Katashaka, but that entry cofused the heck out of me. However, as one historian to another, it does't neccessarily say WHAT ISLAND, so if we remember that many people in the RW still call Australia an 'island' the we can see how both can be correct. The "Southeast of Maztica" is a little harder to explain... :rolleyes:
Mazaron 05-01-07, 11:49 PM	That is NOT FR canon, but rather from Babylonian mythology, where they are called "the children of Tiamet". **Don't know Babylonian mythology especially well, sounds neat. It is a fantasy amalgam of both, reminiscent of Burrough's Tarzan novels, repleat with lost civiliztions, inteligent apes, and 'little people'. Most of the jungles we see in old 'Africa' movies were really filmed in South American, so we have the 'Hollywood' version, which really isn'y such a bad thing. ***Very Pulpish then. Something Chult should have been, too bad the supplement was awful. Zakhara had a Jungle in the North-East, called the Sepadan, and it was large eough to stretch around and be on the Kara-Tur maps as well. **Faerun, Zakhara, and Kara-Tur all connected. It wouldn't have been hard to make northern Zakhara African flavor. It already had some of the wildlife, such as crocodiles, elephants, lions, and hippos. Most of that would be in the Lopango region, part of Maztica and just north of katashaka. **Getting back to familiar areas then. I used Lopango quite a bit, that is MY South America in my campaign. This connection is just in a conceptual stage right now, and tenuous at best. I'm coming up with a proto-cosmology, where there was a great war between the 'True' gods, many of whom got 'shattered', with pieces of them winding up in mutiple spheres. I figure Baast had something to do with creating the Rakshasa to fight on the side of Ra during the primordial war of light and darkness, but she used demons (or something similar) as the base and they turned on the Phaoronic Pantheon. I figure that 'war' later became 'reflected' in every reality somehow. Like I said, the connection isn't really thought out, my idea is just in its infancy and could be scrapped if desn't make enough sense to me. **Good stuff. Nothing really to add, other than I like how it seems so epic. I love things that explain how things came to be, I had a few things like that in my campaign. I don't have any of my resources with me, but I believe there were some 12+ sub-species of Rakasta discussed, and definately a Tiger (basic rakasta) and most likely a Jaguar, along with TWO leopard types. **But would you recommend purchasing it? 3e Oriental Adventures. Not sure if that was the name given the Baboon people in the older Kara-Tur source books, I'll have to check on that. **Baboon, no, definitley it was an orangutan race, gentle forest folk. Baboon race would be cool, but that wouldn't fit in Kara-Tur. BTW the Planet of the Apes remamke was supposed to have baboons originally but they scrapped their part. I want to say the name was hsing-hsing or something like that. My bad, I mis-read tree-dwelling as just 'tree'. Your idea is fine, but I would make them smaller, more like halfling size, to make them more interesting. Also, they should have folds of skin under their arms like a flying squirrel, so they could 'sail' from tree to tree. ;) ***Doesn't fit how I used the Tamarins, both to explain the hsing-hsing and the ettercaps (which have roughly similiar sizes and physiques) and the cilivization they used to have (high tech and with human-sized buildings, vehicles, etc). Your version sounds good too, seems like there was a Mystara creature like that, in the Isle of Dread too no less. Hmm, phanaton maybe? A primordial plant race was still kinda cool though, even if it was just a mistake on my part. Like Day of the Trifids meets Little Shop of horrors. :D ***Something anti-animal, yes, it would be cool. Could be an alien-feeling civilization, maybe the first sentient race. I could see it being very cool. Maybe various subtypes, needlefolk as warriors, "feed meee Seymour" type as I don't know, guardians, or superiors. Treant types too (plant versions of the formians maybe?). You love tying things together, maybe they created all the sentient plants like iron maws, dark trees, the "vine ogre" in MM3, shambling mounds, etc. Heck, maybe the warred once upon a time with a fungus race, which retreated - drow-like - underground (hence the myconids).
MarkusTay63 05-02-07, 12:48 AM	"The Vegtable Wars" I like it. :D Lots of good vegetation and fungus based creatures to work with... but I'm going to have to put thaton the back burner for awhile, I'm so busy with four other projects right now. However, while researching the others I will be taking notes... ;) I need Vegepygmies in 3e FR. :dancin:
Mazaron 05-02-07, 02:16 PM	"The Vegtable Wars" I like it. :D Lots of good vegetation and fungus based creatures to work with... but I'm going to have to put thaton the back burner for awhile, I'm so busy with four other projects right now. However, while researching the others I will be taking notes... ;) I need Vegepygmies in 3e FR. :dancin: Oh it would be a grand background for a campaign setting, wars fought by empires long, long gone, empires that humans cannot even imagine. Maybe the war is still being fought but very slowly by non-animate (to human eyes and time sense anyway) plants and fungus. I could imagine vast armies meeting, myconids brigades releasing clouds of spores, needlefolk darkening the sky with their missile weapons, huge treants battering down funguoid structures derived from shelf fungus or what have you. I may even have to use this.
lavekkia 05-03-07, 06:51 AM	Ah found it.... "Weave is the predominant and “most correct” (and thus, most powerful) means of harnessing natural energies: in other words, it is magic but it’s not the ONLY magic (as evidenced by the Shadow Weave and other, less-powerful alternatives to the Weave: table magic, pluma magic, etc.)." posted 27th of September 2005 This does go against published Realms, but I stand corrected. Next time someone has an issue with pluma magic, I'll tell them the only person that can answer that question is Ed Greenwood. :) On a side note i think that another example of weave - less magic is the healing magic of the Ghustil PrC found in polyhedron 159 since it draws DIRECTLY from the astral plane. Back on topic: i think that the definition of weave less magic could be extended to Talon magic without fear of contradicting canon. Has someone converted old 2e spells to 3.5e ?
Alac Luin 05-03-07, 12:20 PM	On a side note i think that another example of weave - less magic is the healing magic of the Ghustil PrC found in polyhedron 159 since it draws DIRECTLY from the astral plane. This is a Gith based PrC, and on Faerun I'd say it accesses the Weave to accesses the Astral Plane. Does this PrC even function on the material plane? Back on topic: i think that the definition of weave less magic could be extended to Talon magic without fear of contradicting canon. If pluma magic is weave free, so should Hishna. (I'm not sure how much I like this myself, but the two should be equal). Has someone converted old 2e spells to 3.5e ? There isn't that many, and most of them can (and do) function exactly like PHB spells, or spells from FRCS and MoF. IMO, before the spells are converted, the artisans should be converted first.
Mazaron 05-03-07, 01:40 PM	I can't help with the 3.5 part, but I used Maztica and the continent to the south, Lopango, quite a bit in my FR campaign. I created a number of new monsters but again, all in 2E format. One of my current campaigns is set in Lopango, albeit a million years in the past (time travel). I had created some treants for Maztica based on North American trees, like the mangrove and pecan, a new series of faerie called the skippers (which had many subraces), a sentient monkey race called the tamarin, and several dragon like creatures such as the kelp dragon. If anyone wants I could dig them up and at least post the ideas behind them. I have read some about neotropical animals and precolumbian civlizations so I would be l glad to help others. Here is my list of Maztican-Lopango creatures: Pinyon Corvay - sentient crow-like flocking birds of the deserts Astutai - sentient small mammalian race, resemblilng ringtails or cacomistle Giant Marjul Beetle - Giant desert beetles, they lie buried in the sand, only coming to the surface to feed when the rains come. Giant Ironclad Beetle - Voracious nocturnal beetle, often hunted to make armor and shields by the locals. Giant Tiger Beetle - Voracious daytime hunter. Giant Sand Lizard -pretty self-explanatory Maztican Treants - Catclaw, Ironwood, Mangrove, and Treant subtypes Skippers - Race of faerie, sort of kind of like good natural mephits, I had white, desert, gray, monarch, luna, blue, yellow, orange, red, and green subtypes, they had butterfly-like wings as you might gather and lived in different terrains and had different alignments Tamarin - sentient tropical rain forest simian race. They figure promiently in my current Lopango campaign Lesser Thunderbird - Powerful giant eagle like creature of good Giant Macaw - Sometimes used as mounts by the tamarin, sentient Giant Forest Falcon - very manuerable Thorn bird - Gregarious rain forest birds, have "song magic" Giant Sierema - Large hunting bird, runs around Protodragons - ancient types that held on in Maztica, kelp, canyon, and jungle subtypes. Kelp is aquatic, lives in the kelp beds off the coast, canyon resemble sinous bat-winged lizards, jungle protodragons possess a Svengali-like hypnotic gaze (I used the latter one to good effect on PCs a couple of times) Calibara - Sentient aquatic mammals of the rivers and lakes Morpho - Deadly parasitic jungle butterfly Living Weather - living thunderstorms of the plains Emperor mammoths - very ancient, think of them as almost terrestrial-bound baku Langer - mountainous rodent race Dragon Salamander - large land-going mountain salamanders of forests and streams Magical beetles - small, normal beetle sized, I had the passalid beetle, ambrosia beetle, and burying beetle dream cricket - magical, well, crickets Brown slime - strange slime of temperate forests They are in 2E format but I would be glad to contribute and work with someone or if not try myself to convert them
lavekkia 05-03-07, 03:48 PM	This is a Gith based PrC, and on Faerun I'd say it accesses the Weave to accesses the Astral Plane. Does this PrC even function on the material plane? The PrC function in every plane that is connected to astral. Don't know... the PrC entry says that Ghustils draw DIRECTLY from the energies of the astral plane to heal. We are definitely going OT; this is not the right thread to discuss of this things. If pluma magic is weave free, so should Hishna. (I'm not sure how much I like this myself, but the two should be equal). Agreed. There isn't that many, and most of them can (and do) function exactly like PHB spells, or spells from FRCS and MoF. IMO, before the spells are converted, the artisans should be converted first. Agreed again. What do you propose ? A base class ? I was thinking to create a base class for plumaweaver and one specular for hishnashaper both with the Ranger spell progression and then create a PrC for the most accomplished artisans (Master Artisan ? Maztican Artisan ? Hishna/Pluma Artisan ?) which allows the casting of a few 5th lvl spells (i would add some more spells but that s just me) and the creation of the Talismans. Of course the prerequisites for this PrC should be VERY strict. Item creation feats should be restricted (or banned altogether)
Alac Luin 05-03-07, 11:56 PM	Agreed again. What do you propose ? A base class ? I was thinking to create a base class for plumaweaver and one specular for hishnashaper both with the Ranger spell progression and then create a PrC for the most accomplished artisans (Master Artisan ? Maztican Artisan ? Hishna/Pluma Artisan ?) which allows the casting of a few 5th lvl spells (i would add some more spells but that s just me) and the creation of the Talismans. Of course the prerequisites for this PrC should be VERY strict. Item creation feats should be restricted (or banned altogether) I have been thinking to go in the opposite direction. First time I attempted to update these classes I based it on the Bard class with 2 separate PrCs. I wanted the class to have some resemblance to balance. Then when the Eberron CS came out, I loved the look of the Artificer base class, which I've been contemplating on for some time. Both Pluma Weavers and Hishna shapers are more about item creation (at least lore wise) then spellcasting. Issue is, the type of magic the Artificer class has access to and use during item construction. Here is what I have been thinking... One base class and using substitution levels to represent Hishna/Pluma. At 1st level you choose which and gain separate class skills and spell lists, and a few other powers at higher levels. This is not much different then two base classes, but it's easier to keep balance if they are so close to each other.
MarkusTay63 05-04-07, 12:30 AM	@Mezaron - nice list, I can work with that. :D Most of them could just be Maztican versions of creatures found elsewhere, like the Pinyon Corvay sound like Kara-Tur's Tengu, and Proto-dragons could be the drakes from the Mystara setting; I was thinking of placing them here myself, good call. The rest could be written up as well, they are a great addition. Out of complete boredom today I went into my Ex's attic (being as how I'm trapped here) and found all of my old 2e Mounstrous appendices! Not the main ones, I had those, but these were the ones from all the 'other' settings, like Kara-Tur and Zakhara. Unfortunately, the never made a Maztica one (AFAIK). Definately will work those Drakes/Proto-dragons into the history of the region, I'm thinking a lot of ancient 'Draconic' influences way back. I'll leave all the 'crunchy bits' for you guys, with the classes, spells, etc... The only thing I might reccomend is going with Alac's reccomendation - I believe those two types of MU's were based on the thief class originally, so the Bard makes good sense for 3.5.
lavekkia 05-04-07, 06:50 AM	Here is what I have been thinking... One base class and using substitution levels to represent Hishna/Pluma. At 1st level you choose which and gain separate class skills and spell lists, and a few other powers at higher levels. This is not much different then two base classes, but it's easier to keep balance if they are so close to each other. I like it :) How far thy would progress in spell levels ? 4th like rangers and paladins or 6th like bards and Artificers ? 5th and 6th lvl spells could not be directly cast like the others but they must be "infused" into talismans.
Alac Luin 05-04-07, 01:57 PM	I like it :) How far thy would progress in spell levels ? 4th like rangers and paladins or 6th like bards and Artificers ? 5th and 6th lvl spells could not be directly cast like the others but they must be "infused" into talismans. I'd like to go 6th level, only to make them a classes that are actually playable, their spell list would still be limited in scope, and all spells should work more like infusions. This can be assured by "touch spells". Now with the word "talisman" 1st level class ability "Lesser Talisman" -a single use magic item, on par with the scribe scroll. 4th level "Greater talisman"- Craft wondrous item feat. Craft Magic Arms and armor around 6th or 7th (someone has to craft the armor for eagle/jaguar knights :) ) Brew potion, craft wand/staff and rod are not available (at least not free class abilities). Something along these lines.
MarkusTay63 05-04-07, 02:34 PM	If you look at my (and Lavekkia's) kara-Tur Index, I have a section for Totem, Talisman, and Fetish magic. Whatever you guys come up with here will be equally applicable to the Malatra (and Northern Wastes) region as well. Instead of using 'lesser' and 'greater', perhaps we could use these names which are found in source and have more flavor? I was thinking a fetish would be quick and easy one-shot magic item, like a feather enchanted with a spell or an animal tooth. I pictured the Talismans slightly more powerful, like something that would give a permanent +1 to hunting skill or 'to hit' bonuses. However, I was thinking that this type would be connected to the spirit-world and work like a psuedo-magical item, so that the powers granted from carrying it only work within so many miles of the tribal lands. This type would require more work to create, with the warrior having to go on a 'vision-quest' to findall the materials, and then a Shaman would assemble them together to create something like a 'medicine-pouch'. Losing your 'medicine-pouch' would be a disgrace, and you would have to go on a quest to receive inspiration for another one. Finally, a 'Totem' would be a permanent item, similar to a priest's holy symbol. By invoking the 'spirits', you can use the magic held within. This type would not have the range penalties, but the spirits could deny useage if it were put to a use not condusive to the spirits wishes (like attacking your own tribe). I only thought about all this because I was going to do it for the other thread. I'm working on a generic 'primitive magic user' that will be scaleable to meet the needs of specific tribes and regions, ranging from Shaman and Witchdoctors to Juju mon and Wise Women (or even hedge-wizard). They're magic will primarily use Druid spells, but also borrow heavily from both the priest and Wizard lists depending on the tribes 'affiliations'. EDIT: I found the post that listed all the sub-species of Rakasta - The Thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=833411)
MarkusTay63 05-05-07, 01:33 AM	Found some rather bizarre refernces to Esh-Alakarin, which appear to be canon. The Scoop (http://www.spelljammer.org/npcs/shipcrews/Lacanha.html) It does change some things, I'll have to check, but I don't think the Dragonfly was a uniquely Elven vessel. If it was, then the Drow may have built it as well. However, the inside of the ship is filled with Mayan-style artwork, which points to the Azuposi or some of the other Maztican peoples. Must ponder this new bit to work it in.... :plotting:
lavekkia 05-05-07, 06:51 AM	I'd like to go 6th level, only to make them a classes that are actually playable, their spell list would still be limited in scope, and all spells should work more like infusions. This can be assured by "touch spells". Now with the word "talisman" 1st level class ability "Lesser Talisman" -a single use magic item, on par with the scribe scroll. 4th level "Greater talisman"- Craft wondrous item feat. Craft Magic Arms and armor around 6th or 7th (someone has to craft the armor for eagle/jaguar knights :) ) Brew potion, craft wand/staff and rod are not available (at least not free class abilities). Something along these lines. Is the Bard spell progression good to you ? Requiring touch range forr all spells could be a good compromise. I would also add Somatic components to every spell and require that somatic components need 2 free hands; maybe casting a spell could require a std action AND a movement (expending a move action and having a free square nearby). For spells with longer casting time a 5ft step could be enough. Quickened spells could pose a problem (since you have not enough move actions). Craft Wand, Rod, Staff and Forge Ring should be outright banned and maybe granted by some PrC. Potions could be substituted by unguents applied on the skin to achieve the desired effect.
lavekkia 05-05-07, 07:27 AM	I was thinking a fetish would be quick and easy one-shot magic item, like a feather enchanted with a spell or an animal tooth. Not bad ;) Useable by anyone or only by the Artisan ? I pictured the Talismans slightly more powerful, like something that would give a permanent +1 to hunting skill or 'to hit' bonuses. However, I was thinking that this type would be connected to the spirit-world and work like a psuedo-magical item, so that the powers granted from carrying it only work within so many miles of the tribal lands. This type would require more work to create, with the warrior having to go on a 'vision-quest' to findall the materials, and then a Shaman would assemble them together to create something like a 'medicine-pouch'. Losing your 'medicine-pouch' would be a disgrace, and you would have to go on a quest to receive inspiration for another one. Sounds good. The tribal lands would be delimited by some symbol (skulls of animals and enemies appended to tree branches, primitive wind bells and such). Destroying Enough of them would shrink the tribe territory and placing more of them would expand it further. They could also work like arcane eyes or like alarm spells. Some of them could even carry a glyph of warding or other nasty thing. Finally, a 'Totem' would be a permanent item, similar to a priest's holy symbol. By invoking the 'spirits', you can use the magic held within. This type would not have the range penalties, but the spirits could deny useage if it were put to a use not condusive to the spirits wishes (like attacking your own tribe). Like bringing the lands of your ancestors with you. Maybe totems should have a hollow interior which actually holds some earth of your village (or something more disgusting ;) ). And if your village for whatever reason is destroyed... :evillaugh If you settle into another region the totem loses its powers
MarkusTay63 05-05-07, 11:50 AM	Not bad ;) Useable by anyone or only by the Artisan ?Anyone. The Shaman/tribal priest would be able to cast spells, so this would not be as useful to him as to someone else. I'm thinking something like this - "When you get to the river of winter spirits, young brave, follow the path to the falls of enlightenment. Into these waters place the item I have given you, and a vision you shall have..." Just one use, and usually having to do with something to aid the tribe, but not neccessarily. Thats pretty open-ended, so just about any spell could be placed in such an item. I would make the item holding the spell be more rare depending on the spell level, with something like a 9th level spell being placed in "the feather of the Thunderbird" - You get the idea. The tribal lands would be delimited by some symbol (skulls of animals and enemies appended to tree branches, primitive wind bells and such). Destroying Enough of them would shrink the tribe territory and placing more of them would expand it further. They could also work like arcane eyes or like alarm spells. Some of them could even carry a glyph of warding or other nasty thing.I like that A LOT! We are so going to have to use that, it is chock-full of flavor! :D Like bringing the lands of your ancestors with you. Maybe totems should have a hollow interior which actually holds some earth of your village (or something more disgusting ;) ). And if your village for whatever reason is destroyed... :evillaugh If you settle into another region the totem loses its powersMore great ideas. I love the 'earth-inside' thing, it fits into everything else so well. Perhaps the Talismans would then work 'further afield', with the wearer bringing a small circle of his 'tribal lands' with him where ever he goes? There is SO much we can build upon that! It even fits in with established canon - the whole Winwalker affair with Liriel; she was able to use Drow items (specifically called psuedo-magical items in 2e Monstrous manual) on the surface because she put some faezress into it and carried a small piece of homeland with her, so the Windwalker was actually a Talisman (although, perhaps one that had achieved artifact status, given the outcome). Nothing like tying together loose bits of lore and have it work seemlessly. Good call.
Mazaron 05-05-07, 03:42 PM	[QUOTE=MarkusTay63;12294960]@Mezaron - nice list, I can work with that. :D ***Thanks. I am rather fond of several of them, though I have to admit many have not been play-tested. Most of them could just be Maztican versions of creatures found elsewhere, like the Pinyon Corvay sound like Kara-Tur's Tengu, and Proto-dragons could be the drakes from the Mystara setting; I was thinking of placing them here myself, good call. The rest could be written up as well, they are a great addition. ***The Tengu I don't know so well. Is that like the Kenku? The Kenku has arms, the Pinyon Corvay looks a lot like a large crow, it doesn't look really different in terms of anatomy. Proto-dragons I meant as descendend from ancient pre-dragon stock but are not primitive in the sense of not being specialized or intelligent. They are highly specialized and unique to Maztica. The kelp dragon is a sea going dragon of just off-shore, lives in pods or schools, and never go on land though they have relationships with land-based humans. The canyon one looks very lizard-like in appearence but that is an adaptation so it can hide and slither into tight areas in canyons, caves, and caverns (oh, and fly too). The jungle one is flightless, is very hard to see, spends a lot of time in the trees, and humans often pass by it not knowing it is there (unless the dragon wants to feed and oh where did the cleric go?). No one ever hears any screaming. Unfortunately, the never made a Maztica one (AFAIK). ***Dragon a year or three ago had some new Maztican (or really Mesoamerican) monsters. I don't remember the names of any one of them or what issue, I am sure you could search for them on paizo (spelling).com. But yes, Maztica was very very monster light. I gather most of what they did was suggest monsters from other settings, such as giant insects, snakes, crocodiles, and the like. The boxed set had just a couple of monsters. Definately will work those Drakes/Proto-dragons into the history of the region, I'm thinking a lot of ancient 'Draconic' influences way back. ****I could post what I have if you like. Even though it is 2E it still might be something to work with. Let me know.
Alac Luin 05-05-07, 06:52 PM	If you look at my (and Lavekkia's) kara-Tur Index, I have a section for Totem, Talisman, and Fetish magic. <snip> Those are some good ideas, and are definitely something to work with. Found some rather bizarre refernces to Esh-Alakarin, which appear to be canon.<snip> I guess this is why someone claimed they were humans in the other thread. Drow have been known to build spelljammers similar to other elven vessels. We should ask do we really want to tie Drow to this area? (I'm ok with it, just some others really really hate drow :) ) Is the Bard spell progression good to you ? Requiring touch range forr all spells could be a good compromise. I would also add Somatic components to every<snip> Craft Wand, Rod, Staff and Forge Ring should be outright banned and maybe granted by some PrC. Potions could be substituted by unguents applied on the skin to achieve the desired effect. I would want this class to be actually playable, IMO the original boxed set had these classes nerfed beyond playability. I like the Bard progression, but I can understand if it's believed to be to much. Pally or Ranger is to light. Something in between may work (I don't know of one to use as reference). Somatic and Material components, maybe getting rid of verbal components, since their magic is tied to working with their special materials. I don't think those craft feats should be banned, but referenced that characters need a good fluff reason to gain these feats, thought behind this they could learn them from the newcomers to the true world. ***Thanks. I am rather fond of several of them, though I have to admit many have not been play-tested. Most of them could just be Maztican versions of creatures found elsewhere, <snip> I'm sorry I didn't mention this earlier, I do like several of those creatures on your list. I'll be back to reference some of them in the future when I get a better chance to give it more then a once over.
Mazaron 05-05-07, 07:42 PM	I'm sorry I didn't mention this earlier, I do like several of those creatures on your list. I'll be back to reference some of them in the future when I get a better chance to give it more then a once over.[/QUOTE] **Thanks. Any help I can offer please don't hestitate to ask. I may have had too many sentient creatures on the list but I was planning on populating my campaign's equivalents of North, Central, and South America and the Caribbean plus my New World would lack many of the sentient creatures found in Faerun (or be replaced by something Maztican, such as the fey by the skippers, etc.).
Mazaron 05-05-07, 07:58 PM	My ideas for a shaman or witch doctor: Sorry, keeping in mind I don't play 3E or 3.5 and only know some things about it: 1. I assume clerics still undead right?! Well, instead of having them turn undead, they could turn spirits. Determine which creatures in the setting are spirits (they don't have to be incorporeal) and compose a chart of them for them to turn. Oriental Adventures had at least in 1E lesser and greater nature spirits. I seem to recall *something like that* in 3E MMs though the OA nature spirits was a bit more diffuse and not as powerful. 2. Alternately, shamans/witch doctors can summon various spirits at various levels (and/or various natural, mundane wildlife like jaguars, eagles, bears, wolves, crocodiles, etc.). 3. They should be able to brew poisons and antidotes. You could construct some sort of chart to indicate failure or success (and types of failure, such as explosions or attracting bad spirits). 4. They could construct one shot magic items or weak ones, like a bracelet that could keep away (percentage chance based on level of shaman) snakes that would bite, or or small personal protective figures that give a bonus to saving throws but are used up.
MarkusTay63 05-05-07, 08:44 PM	There is a class in Complete Divine called the Spirit Shaman, that works pretty much that way. Drakes are rather unintelligent, armless dragons. They are smarter then animals, but not nearly as clever as true Dragons. The 'dragons' you are describing sound like the Linnorm (Norse Dragons) featured in 2e Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume 1. I was planning on placing them to the north in Anchorome, because I'm working on tying that region to the Norse in certain aspects, because the Azuposi tribe is blood-related to the Illuskans (according to GHotR). The connection is weak after 17,000 years, but it is one of the reasons that Azuposi are far lighter then most other 'new world' inhabitants. The blood has been thinned through racial mixing, but I could see some of the original norse-like culture surviving further north, including the dragons. Would you mind very much if we kept the more primitive drakes in Maztica, and somewhat more evolved (but still less then true dragons) Linnorms to the north? It would make more sense continuity-wise, and allow me to continue to develop this region as the 'cradle of dragon civilization'. I still have no idea how thats going to work out, considering that most scholars believe that dragons arrived on Toril already fully evolved. I'm sure we can come up with something if take this approach. I do like the mention of the carribean, and I'm thinking a more sinister island culture off the coast between Anchorome and Maztica. No area like that exists AFAIK, but since the maps are pretty innacurate where this region is concerned, there could be a chain or two of small islands nearby. I be thinkin' Voodoo mon, with all sorts of bad mojo. ;) @Alac Luin - How about the Plumaweaver being based on the Bard, and the Hishnashaper being based on the Ranger. The Hishna seems more combat oriented, just give him back-stab as his combat style at level 2, rather then the 2-weapon or bow styles. Most of the Drow I plan for this area are no longer around (including the newest ones, who were ALL turned into driders as per canon). As of right now I have only one 'functioning' Drow group in the region, and it does not live underground or worship Lolth. In fact, they will be VERY similar to the Elves in Eberron... :devil:
Mazaron 05-05-07, 09:07 PM	[QUOTE=MarkusTay63;12310067]There is a class in Complete Divine called the Spirit Shaman, that works pretty much that way. **I used to have a 2E supplement that was all about the spirit shaman, the entire supplement. It had a number of new spells, spirit creatures, spirit abilites. Kind of specialized, it was well done though. It would be ideal for a Precolumbian type campaign setting. Drakes are rather unintelligent, armless dragons. They are smarter then animals, but not nearly as clever as true Dragons. The 'dragons' you are describing sound like the Linnorm (Norse Dragons) featured in 2e Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume 1. I was planning on placing them to the north in Anchorome, because I'm working on tying that region to the Norse in certain aspects, because the Azuposi tribe is blood-related to the Illuskans (according to GHotR). The connection is weak after 17,000 years, but it is one of the reasons that Azuposi are far lighter then most other 'new world' inhabitants. The blood has been thinned through racial mixing, but I could see some of the original norse-like culture surviving further north, including the dragons. ***I use drake more generically to indicate any small, winged dragon, usually four-limbed, one of those pairs of limbs being wings. They do not have age categories and often do not have breath weapons. I have several on my website, such as the pine drake and the salt drake. I didn't imagine my protodragon as drake - your analogy of the linnorms (or if anyone remembers landragons) is a great deal closer. In fact, pretty much spot on. Definitely not conventional dragons but also definitely dragon-like and powerful. The protodragons developed in isolation and plus who wants to find the same old dragons you find in Faerun? It wouldn't make much sense to find most of the dragons in Maztica that you do back across the Trackless, and even though are related might have developed intersting differences. Would you mind very much if we kept the more primitive drakes in Maztica, and somewhat more evolved (but still less then true dragons) Linnorms to the north? It would make more sense continuity-wise, and allow me to continue to develop this region as the 'cradle of dragon civilization'. I still have no idea how thats going to work out, considering that most scholars believe that dragons arrived on Toril already fully evolved. I'm sure we can come up with something if take this approach. ***I don't like calling the protodragons drakes, they are large animals (plus I like the idea of drakes flitting about in many habitats). The canyon protodragon I had living in the deserts and canyons of Maztica, in warm regions, corresponnding to the Anasazi type peoples mentioned in the boxed sets and one of the supplements. The kelp protodragon was found off the coasts, particularly the western coasts, in generally cool waters (which is where you find kelp, along with maybe wereotters or seawolves). The jungle protodragon was found in warm, humid, rain forest, particulalry in Lopango and points south. So no problem with the linnorms being north (maybe they are circumpolar, living throughout northern Toril, even into Kara-Tur). I would think you would want to steer away from dumping all the chromatic, metallic, and gem dragons here and there...too many dragons for one thing, plus not reflecting the isolation Maztica would have. I do like the mention of the carribean, and I'm thinking a more sinister island culture off the coast between Anchorome and Maztica. No area like that exists AFAIK, but since the maps are pretty innacurate where this region is concerned, there could be a chain or two of small islands nearby. I be thinkin' Voodoo mon, with all sorts of bad mojo. ;) ***Oh yes. GURPS has some great voodoo stuff. Cannibals would be great there. Perfect place of course for pirates!
lavekkia 05-06-07, 07:58 AM	Those are some good ideas, and are definitely something to work with. I guess this is why someone claimed they were humans in the other thread. Drow have been known to build spelljammers similar to other elven vessels. We should ask do we really want to tie Drow to this area? (I'm ok with it, just some others really really hate drow :) ) The few drow that sail wildspace usually steal spelljammer vessels and refit them to suit their needs. (by obscuring windows and creating opaque crystal domes over the exposed decks). Drow also have two kinds of ships (the jade spiders) shaped like spiders and hollow with the community into the inside cavern. All the ships emanate faerzness (the Underdark radiation) to protect the drow pseudo magical items. I would want this class to be actually playable, IMO the original boxed set had these classes nerfed beyond playability. I like the Bard progression, but I can understand if it's believed to be to much. Pally or Ranger is to light. Something in between may work (I don't know of one to use as reference). Do you mean in between by spell power reaching 5th lvl spells or number of spells per level ? Somatic and Material components, maybe getting rid of verbal components, since their magic is tied to working with their special materials. A bit too much differences if you ask me. Let's see what others think about it I don't think those craft feats should be banned, but referenced that characters need a good fluff reason to gain these feats, thought behind this they could learn them from the newcomers to the true world. Agreed. Those feat were banned but newcomers reintroduced them teaching to artisans the new forms of magic. Those feats however will have a new prerequisite: Craft Of New Magic feat ; a regional feat available only in the regions most influenced by newcomers. I'm sorry I didn't mention this earlier, I do like several of those creatures on your list. I'll be back to reference some of them in the future when I get a better chance to give it more then a once over.
MarkusTay63 05-06-07, 01:50 PM	Don't feel like doing the multi-quote thing - These Drow are in no way connected to the current 'Space Drow'; they didn't even worship Lolth and it is doubtful that actually ever made it into space (even though their ship(s) could do it). The ship(s) was built to fight a terrestrial war with a local unknown enemy, who could have very well been the ancient Proscador Elves. The fact that they would have built a ship closer in design to something a surface Elf would have come up with actually makes much more sense then them using a current Drow model. For all we know, the one that is still in current use by the Harpers could have been the proto-type, and the finished model(s) was stolen by the original Elves of this region several millenia ago. These Elves then left Realmspace to found their own world, away from other 'stinky' races. And now we have a VERY scarey piece of lore - the EIN culture is based on technology STOLEN from Dark Elves! :eek: Ohhhh, the shame of it... :gah: granted, I only have about 70% of the stuff that came out for Spelljammer, but I'm fairly certain space Elves and Space Drow don't fight. They may not be best buds, but from what I read there is little to no aggression on either of their parts. Given the preponderance of MANY other evils in space, this makes quite a bit of sense as well. The last thing the EIN need is yet another enemy to fight. Not with all those Scro Tums flying around... ;) Other News - All feats should now be allowed (due to 15+ years of cultural exchange), and I think that ANY primitive caster (Shaman, Hishna, pluma, witch, etc...) would use ALL THREE components. Think American Indian - They danced, chanted, and threw 'mystic powders' into the flames. They even smoked big 'peace'um pipe'. ;) Balance is important for this region, because it's under-powered presentation in 2.0 is what turned a lot of people off. Figure there was some sort of Ban on 7+ magic, but now that Quotal's returned (probably as an indirect result of the ToT) the ban has been lifted. I read that the anti-magic 'shield' above Maztica is no longer present, which is why Spelljammers can land again. Perhaps this shield was part of a much larger magic-dampening effect, placed there by the ancient Maztican gods to protect the humans from the further depredations of Elven High-Magic? (The Sundering pi$$ed a LOT of people off, even deities).
lavekkia 05-06-07, 05:38 PM	IEN and drow don't fight; that s true. Because drow are so few that it s very difficult to encounter them. Still drow sometimes manage to steal Armada ships (especially the older ones, the Monarch class ships) and refit them. IEN however officially denies it and claims that drow do not sail the wildspace. They probably do it to cover their shame but i suspect there s another reason we don't know. (and that we probably never know since Spelljammer is discontinued) By the way all elven ships are crafted using Elven High Magic rituals, so they can't have stolen technology from drow. Other News - All feats should now be allowed (due to 15+ years of cultural exchange), and I think that ANY primitive caster (Shaman, Hishna, pluma, witch, etc...) would use ALL THREE components. Think American Indian - They danced, chanted, and threw 'mystic powders' into the flames. They even smoked big 'peace'um pipe'. All feats allowed it s ok. But some limiting factor (represented by my regional feat or some other system you propose) is needed: while it s true that cultural exchange has happened certainly not every spellcaster everywhere in Maztica and nothern regions in Anchorome suddenly has learned how to craft magic items. Edit: i m rethinking about it; while i feel that the feat is needed i think that should not be a regional one. The spellcaster could have learned the new ways of magic later in his life. Balance is important for this region, because it's under-powered presentation in 2.0 is what turned a lot of people off. Figure there was some sort of Ban on 7+ magic, but now that Quotal's returned (probably as an indirect result of the ToT) the ban has been lifted. I read that the anti-magic 'shield' above Maztica is no longer present, which is why Spelljammers can land again. Perhaps this shield was part of a much larger magic-dampening effect, placed there by the ancient Maztican gods to protect the humans from the further depredations of Elven High-Magic? (The Sundering pi$$ed a LOT of people off, even deities). While i like the in game explanation for the disappearance of the magic ban i think that this could destroy the setting: Maztica IS a low magic region, suddenly making tons of magic items and powerful spells available is not advisable. Obviously we could "overpower" other things: we could make the fierce warriors of Maztica even fiercer and powerful.
MarkusTay63 05-06-07, 11:32 PM	That would have to be left up to the individual DM's campaign style. If the players are going to be natives, or at least limited to native-level tech, then everything is on an even keel. However, if players are going to run around in enchanted plate armor, shooting guns, and casting wish spells then the natives definately need to 'crank it up a notch'. Take the removal of the MDF (Magic-Dampening Field) and put it in a sidebar, and give DM's the choice of old-school vs new. The original Spacecraft from this area, the Lacanha, worked using Micha, but that doesn't mean that the original inhabitants couldn't have figured out how to power their ships using High Magic later on. Perhaps, when the gods saw what they were attempting, that is when the MDF was erected, effectively putting the Esh-Alakarin out of business.
Alac Luin 05-06-07, 11:59 PM	Maztica IS a low magic region, suddenly making tons of magic items and powerful spells available is not advisable. I kind of disagree with this feeling. Sure, there are no known Mythals and such (but I could imagine one with the "savage" elves.) There are plenty of magic items in use in the true word. It doesn't rival, say, a drow city in density, but it does rival the Silver Marches. By the lore, all eagle/jaguar knights have the ability to shape shift as a Lycan. Most nobles have pluma fans that float over their heads to provide shade and a cooling breeze. Merchants traverse the streets carrying their wears on floating pluma liters. Priests of Zaltac have been known to use snake skins that function similar to Iron Bands. These items are things that that would be constructed by item creation feats. The quantity available would be lowered by the fact that no "wizard schools" exist and not having organizations as highly, um, well, organized, such as the Red Wizards.
MarkusTay63 05-07-07, 12:28 AM	You are both right. We aren't talking about making this the new Halrua, just leveling the playing field just a bit. On a day-to-day basis, most people in Faerūn DON'T have magic and almost never encounter it. Cormyrian Farmer w/pitchfork #2 wouldn't know a dweomer from a dingbat. Even as magically powered as the Realms are, it is still held in the hands of a select few. Nobles on both sides of the sea could afford 1 or 2 simple 'creature-comforts', but it doesn't mean they can go around hurling lightening bolts. Every tribe must have some religious leader, just as every village in FR has a priest. It really is all just the same; because of the smaller populations you are going to have less casters overall, but on a case-by-case basis it all works out pretty even. The only thing that really needs to be adjusted 'power-wise', IMHO, is the top-end of local casters. If we don't want to disturb the status-quo, then we merely say that Cordell never encountered anyone with true power. Somewhere, deep in the jungles, there could be a cabal of powerful shaman that act like a druid circle. They could have 'retired' from their positions as tribal shaman (after training a replacement) and simply 'wandered off into the jungle'. Perhaps their divination magic fortold of the coming of the Golden Legion, but they also foresaw that their interference would only make matters worse. If Cordell's men had encountered any real resistance he might have sent back to Amn for reinforcements, and there could be ten times as many of them in maztica right now. These 'High Shaman' could very well be hanging back, biding their time. In this way, we don't change the flavor as presented, but we give the DM a balancing factor if he needs it (like when players start playing 'shoot-the-native').
Occam 05-07-07, 05:53 PM	I was planning on placing them to the north in Anchorome, because I'm working on tying that region to the Norse in certain aspects, because the Azuposi tribe is blood-related to the Illuskans (according to GHotR). The connection is weak after 17,000 years, but it is one of the reasons that Azuposi are far lighter then most other 'new world' inhabitants. The blood has been thinned through racial mixing, but I could see some of the original norse-like culture surviving further north, including the dragons. What the...?? <checks Grand History, reads> Huh. I had never noticed that Ancient History section before. That sure doesn't jibe with my own Torilian prehistory, but I may use some ideas anyway. However, it also conflicts with previous (loose) canon, with respect to the origins of the Azuposi. In City of Gold, as well as another source I can't recall just now, it's at least strongly hinted that Monkey led a group of people from the Ama Basin (either Wu-haltai or Issacortae, the sources differ) to Maztica, possibly via a route beneath the earth, who settled and became the Azuposi. Man, I wish I could remember what that other source was that mentioned Monkey.
Alac Luin 05-07-07, 09:32 PM	<snip> Every tribe must have some religious leader, just as every village in FR has a priest. It really is all just the same; because of the smaller populations you are going to have less casters overall, but on a case-by-case basis it all works out pretty even. The only thing that really needs to be adjusted 'power-wise', IMHO, is the top-end of local casters. If we don't want to disturb the status-quo, then we merely say that Cordell never encountered anyone with true power. <snip> When dealing with Maztica, when talking about "tribes", it is not always the same as when we are talking about "tribes" of Uthgardt. We are talking about towns and cities. In the words of Cordell's adviser referring to the place the 3rd major battle of the the legion, "This town of Palul, more like a city on Faerun" Another thing that made Cordell's campaign so easy is the Mazticans waged warfare differently. Unit sizes were much larger, making them more dependent on the few commanders. This leads to large units surrendering because they don't know what to do. Spellcasters were not accustomed to take the field of battle, that was something for the warriors. Politically speaking, it made little difference to that priests and artisans who lead the nation, they still served the deity first. Without having battle experience, the clerics did not even consider taking the field. When the Maztican spellcasters did take to the field of battle, it took an act of divine intervention to save them. Remember, the Golden Legion fought only three major battles before this and each one was lost by the Maztican for reasons of the way they conducted warfare more then "magical weakness". Ulatos- bad tactics on the natives' part. Kultaka- Cordell would have been defeated if it wasn't for the destruction of the command and control of the opposition. Palul- Cordell was able to turn the ambush to his favor, surprising small pockets of enemy troops systematically destroying them. Since these small pockets were not used to small unit operations they failed to act accordingly. The most magically advanced society would have been in Far Payit, Cordell never even came close to this area, and only encountered Troops from Far Payit as allies. So, yes, Cordell never encountered the high end casters until the battle that concluded with the Night of Wailing, in itself more of a contest between deities then anything else.
MarkusTay63 05-08-07, 01:02 AM	Man, I wish I could remember what that other source was that mentioned Monkey.So do I. :( I read that 'some' people came from Kara-Tur through the Underdark, but I don't remember anything about Monkey. I don't think it specifically said that they were lead, but I really don't see large groups of humans migrating through the Underdark naturaly. I was thinking that they were brought across as slaves originally, perhaps of the 'Ancients' or some other species. It doesn't say anything about them being abducted, but it would just make more sense that way. @Alac Luin - Point Taken, but we both seem to agree that Cordell pretty much 'stumbled' his way to victory. Had any sort of decently organized resistance met him, or a group of casters, it probably would have turned out much different. Just because there aren't any groups of powerful mages in current canon doesn't mean we can't 'seed' a few into the background. I was thinking that the old power-max (what was it, lev 6?) was really just a cap for tribal casters, and anyone who acheived power greater then that would be invited into some 'secret jungle society'. If you've read the Wheel of Time novels, the powerful mages in those stories were the Aes Sedai, and they were constantly suprised by the 'hidden power' of the the casters from other primitive societys (such as the Aiel's Wise Ones). I think what would be both balanced and in keeping with the flavor of this region would be some way for the local priests to 'cut off' Arcane magic from someone. Something like a an anti-magic field would work, and would be a very simple way of leveling the playing field. We could simply say that the Shaman has 'beseeched the spirits' to intervene, and that is what is cutting off the magic to a caster. Also, some Rashemi-style magic, with controling the 'spirits of the land' would work very well. I think the appearance of a Nature Elemental would have made Cordell's men turn around and swim back to Faerūn. :D
Occam 05-08-07, 11:02 AM	I read that 'some' people came from Kara-Tur through the Underdark, but I don't remember anything about Monkey. I don't think it specifically said that they were lead, but I really don't see large groups of humans migrating through the Underdark naturaly. I was thinking that they were brought across as slaves originally, perhaps of the 'Ancients' or some other species. It doesn't say anything about them being abducted, but it would just make more sense that way. OK, I think it was one of the Volo novels, in which it's said that Monkey led a group of Issacortae through a portal to Maztica, via Pandemonium. Kinda farfetched, and I don't think the words of Volo count as unalterable canon, so you can probably take it or leave it. BTW, I'm considering using a version of that for my own campaign background. As a millennia-long cooling trend takes hold, the Maraloi attempt high elven magic to provide a warm sanctuary in the Ama Basin. As is often the case with such magic, it works, but with disastrous unforeseen consequences, as the glaciers on the mountains forming the Basin's boundaries melt in a dramatic flood, leaving the swampy region we see today. Monkey led some people to safety in Maztica. (Another possibility: the Esh Alakarans may have been Maraloi that also came along with Monkey.) This might've been about 8000 years ago, and I'm not sure if the timing actually works out yet.
MarkusTay63 05-08-07, 11:39 AM	This is mostly conjecture on my part, but it is based HEAVILY on everything I've read - The Issacortae (along with the Pazruki) are not part of the 'Lung' ethnic group (Orientals). The Issacortae are their own seperate and distinct racial group, and the Pazruki seem to be a mixture of them and the kalmyk (an early Khosite-like people) who lived north of the Ama Basin and along the eastern shores of Yal Tengri (the Great Ice Sea). The fact that it is canon that some peoples migrated to the 'true world' from Kara-Tur is mostly 2e's constant borrowing from RW history for kara-Tur. The similarities in culture and physical appearance of many native Americans lead anthropologists to believe that the Americas were settled by Asians thousands of years ago, so we are seeing the same explanantion here in FR. I have the original Meso-American type peoples pegged as a seperate and distinct racial group, distintantly related to the Shaarans. The tribes living on the western coast of Anchorome would have more distinctively Oriental features because of the KT emigrants. The tribes on the East coast, however, are MUCH lighter in skin tone and have nearly no Oriental qualities. This is because they have heavy amounts of Illuskan blood (see GHotR). The Azuposi are originally part of that eastern group from further north (Anchorome) and the tribes that have migrated far south have 'picked-up' much of the Maztican culture (that from City of Gold). They do worship a completely different set of gods, however. So Mazticans, AFAIK, are one of the 'purest' racial groups on the planet. The people of this group who were left in Faerūn after the sundering have mixed with others, but there was none of that with the Mazticans. The dog people might have some Lung blood, but the Lopango are probably the only exception, having mixed with the darker-skinned folk in Katashaka. The Issacortae are the ONLY proto-group I do not see evidence of in this region. Are you positive about that reference? Perhaps I can get at least a second poster to back it up? Was it in Once around the Realms? I read that book when it first came out and I remember next to nothing about it; maybe I should go on 'safari' today and brave the wastelands of my attic. Anyhow, if I can get some confirmation on that then it would be VERY easy to work in - the whole entire center of Anchorome is pretty empty still (in MY mind, anyway). Plus did Volo say specifically where Monkey brought these people too? One last thing, Volo is notorious for having incomplete or even false information, and that novel was meant to be a parody.
Occam 05-08-07, 03:38 PM	The Issacortae are the ONLY proto-group I do not see evidence of in this region. Are you positive about that reference? Perhaps I can get at least a second poster to back it up? Was it in Once around the Realms? I read that book when it first came out and I remember next to nothing about it; maybe I should go on 'safari' today and brave the wastelands of my attic. Anyhow, if I can get some confirmation on that then it would be VERY easy to work in - the whole entire center of Anchorome is pretty empty still (in MY mind, anyway). Plus did Volo say specifically where Monkey brought these people too? One last thing, Volo is notorious for having incomplete or even false information, and that novel was meant to be a parody. It may have been Once Around the Realms, and yeah, I wouldn't take it as gospel. I do remember that the Monkey-related reference was in relation to the Issacortae, which conflicts with the City of Gold reference to the Wu-haltai. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that IMC the great flood in the Ama Basin is what ended the Maraloi culture. More appropriate for the Kara-Tur thread, I guess I've wandered.
Alac Luin 05-08-07, 05:42 PM	@Alac Luin - Point Taken, <snip> I was thinking that the old power-max (what was it, lev 6?) was really just a cap for tribal casters, and anyone who acheived power greater then that would be invited into some 'secret jungle society'. I want to apologize for my "rant" earlier. I wasn't really disagreeing with anything/anyone in particular, in fact I was agreeing with a few things. I was just trying to put a few things in perspective. I think I got it off my chest, so I'm better now. As for a "power-max", I can find three references, as it pertains to any spellcasters. Payit- Level limit of of 5, unless they served Qotal, in that case they had no limit. Maztican- Could only advance to 5th level of priest, unless they served Zaltec of Qotal. If they served either of these two deities, they could advance to 20th level (no limit). Green Folk- These people had a cap of 9th level in every class. Plumaweavers or Hishnashapers seem to have no level restrictions, but they don't exist in some societies. According to the game notes, the Payit don't have either of these classes available, but the only character ever detailed of these classes (that I have seen published) happens to be Payit.
MarkusTay63 05-09-07, 07:09 PM	Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that IMC the great flood in the Ama Basin is what ended the Maraloi culture. More appropriate for the Kara-Tur thread, I guess I've wandered.LOL :D Wait 'till you see my 'History of the East' timeline. That is EXACTLY what I have down for them (have it up either tonight or tomorrow). As Krash said in the other thread, great minds think alike. ;) According to the game notes, the Payit don't have either of these classes available, but the only character ever detailed of these classes (that I have seen published) happens to be Payit.Typical of 2e. The good part is, it leaves open much interpretation. Figure with the Payit, some tribes have them and some don't. Each tribe is like it's own little society, and their could be vast differences between cultures, even if of the same racial stock. Sounds to me that all of the level 'caps' were artificial, like the old racial 'caps' in 1e. It was done for balancing regions mostly, because if the natives were equally powered they should have never 'lost'. We can just chuck all of that with 3e, and find moe sensible ways to explain the lack of (visible) high end casters. Like my 'secret society' thing, or perhaps high level priests used to make the 'juiciest' sacrificies. You know, come to think of it... :plotting: The sacrificing themselves could go a long way to explain the complete lack of Uber-NPCs. In 3e, the higher-level the sacrificial victim, the better your chance of having your 'prayers' answered. To put it simply, becoming powerful in Maztica was detrimental to your health. :P So, with the sacrifices ended there could easily be some up-and-coming munchkins.
Iakhovas 05-09-07, 09:02 PM	Just a minor point that I thought I would mention: Though they are sometimes referred to as the Payit, the true ethnicity of the humans that live in Payit/Far Payit is Itza.
Alac Luin 05-09-07, 11:02 PM	Just a minor point that I thought I would mention: Though they are sometimes referred to as the Payit, the true ethnicity of the humans that live in Payit/Far Payit is Itza. "Payit" is the term used as the race where dealing with level restrictions/available classes (the "Peoples of Maztica" chapter.) Itza is more commonly used for those of Far Payit only. Those in Payit are descended from them, so yes they are both from the same Itza stock.
MarkusTay63 05-09-07, 11:07 PM	And there is a differential for male and female as well - 'Itza' boy 'Itza' girl Usually shouted out at birth by the midwife. Sorry... couldn't help myself... :rolleyes: <jotting down 'Itza' and filing it away for later use>
Occam 05-10-07, 10:49 AM	The sacrificing themselves could go a long way to explain the complete lack of Uber-NPCs. In 3e, the higher-level the sacrificial victim, the better your chance of having your 'prayers' answered. To put it simply, becoming powerful in Maztica was detrimental to your health. :P If you have it, check out the sacrifice rules in Book of Vile Darkness. I was thinking of using those to provide tangible (and very tempting) benefits for the ritual sacrifices performed by Mazticans. Oh, wait, I just realized that's probably what you're talking about.
MarkusTay63 05-10-07, 01:53 PM	Oh, wait, I just realized that's probably what you're talking about.Great minds think alike. ;)
The Ubbergeek 05-16-07, 12:46 AM	This thread, like the kara-turan-turned one, is cool. :) Now, if such a similar thread could be made for Al-Quadim... :(
The Ubbergeek 05-21-07, 08:28 PM	Just something to add (and to bump up)... This classic cartoon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wKboOd7E2E) is a good source of inspiration for Maztica. :) At the very least for the feeling. :)
Alac Luin 05-21-07, 10:15 PM	How about this, in English this time :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbVNZ-cghz0&mode=related&search= or a dungeon delve scene, finding a spelljammer no less ;) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KNJ9Q_UD2I&mode=related&search=
lavekkia 05-26-07, 08:22 AM	Shameless bump. BTW where s the OP ?
MarkusTay63 05-26-07, 11:20 AM	The Internet ate him. :(
lavekkia 06-07-07, 07:12 AM	I don't want to sound rude but if everyone agrees i would like to start posting stuff; the OP seems to have disappeared and i would not like this thread to die. A first draft of the ToC is ready: if i won't receive negative answers this evening i ll update it to my first post in this thread.
Iakhovas 06-07-07, 09:06 AM	Definitely don't let this thread die. I am a big fan of Maztica and am eagerly awaiting the results of this project.
MarkusTay63 06-07-07, 03:28 PM	I don't want to sound rude but if everyone agrees i would like to start posting stuff; the OP seems to have disappeared and i would not like this thread to die.How about starting a "Maztica Revisted" thread, with YOU as the OP. Then you can place the TOC in your first post, and modify it at your leisure. If the OP hasn't been around, then I don't think that it would be rude at all. I will most likely just do the maps for this for now, because I'm way behind with the stuff I promised for Lord Karsus' Elven Netbook thread, as well as stuff I'm looking forward to doing for the K-T thread.
lavekkia 06-07-07, 06:07 PM	How about starting a "Maztica Revisted" thread, with YOU as the OP. Then you can place the TOC in your first post, and modify it at your leisure. If the OP hasn't been around, then I don't think that it would be rude at all. I will most likely just do the maps for this for now, because I'm way behind with the stuff I promised for Lord Karsus' Elven Netbook thread, as well as stuff I'm looking forward to doing for the K-T thread. I have put much thought on it but i fear a duplication of threads and posts... There s no problem to me in managing a new thread but at least in the short period my contribution will be not much. I ll think about it