measurement [Archive] - Wizards Community

measurement [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nighthawk08
07-29-05, 03:59 PM how would you do measurement in the FR world?? I noticed in the FR books that have been written by various people have used distances by tendays, but how about height?? would that just be feet and inchs or handlengths or something??
Kuje31
07-29-05, 04:21 PM Good question, and I don't believe it's ever been stated. :) Ed probably knows, so you can ask him over at Candlekeep.com. Of course, if you don't want to ask then I can go do it for you. :)
Gallameed
07-30-05, 03:12 AM I bet its something with the letters "a" and "e" in quick succession. ;)
Ssussunriyh
07-30-05, 09:36 AM In real life, weights and measures during the Middle Ages were a vast agglomeration of random events. Length was measured in fingers, hands, spans, feet, cubits, yards, miles, and days (the last being an estimate of how far a healthy person might travel at a walking pace, without overexerting himself.)

Not only was there no agreed-on relationship between the various units, but the size of the unit varied from place to place. Every local lord declared how long a yard was for trading in textiles, the typical criteria being the distance from his nose to his outstretched fingertips. Thus, a yard could vary greatly depending on how tall or short the local high-muckety-muck happened to be.

Weights were in worse shape. Cheese, wheat, and oats were all sold by the quarter, for example. A quarter of what, you ask? Why, a quarter of cheese, wheat, or oats! There was no "whole" or "half." But a quarter of wheat was more than five times larger than a quarter of cheese, which was maybe a hundred kilos. And a quarter of oats was bigger than the other two combined. And of course a quarter in one city was not equal to a quarter anywhere else.

Even the calendars were messed up. In Italy, it was possible to leave Venice in the Spring of 1232, get to Florence a few weeks later in 1233, then go to Milan and find that it was 1231. You were lucky if everyone agreed which day was Sunday and what year it was. Some people began the new year on Christmas, some a week later, and some on the first of March.

At least the FRCS has a standard calendar, although various regions count the years differently. DaleReckoning is usually given as the standard to avoid confusion. You also have feet, yards, pounds, fluid ounces, quarts, gallons, and tons, which are assumed to be more or less the same wherever you go.
Faraer
07-30-05, 02:03 PM The sources mostly use ordinary Imperial measures such as feet, inches and pounds, occasionally rarer ones like quarts. There are also Realms-specific measures like handwidth (Pages from the Mages p. 4), and what we don't know is the degree to which the standard Imperial units are an abstraction of a more complex Realms situation. We can assume that local measures are certainly in effect to an extent.

We do know that time in most of the sources is simplified from the Realms reality:Time in the Realms is NEVER measured in “hours” or “minutes.” Short-term waits can be measured in “breaths” but in cities, temples, and monasteries, the equivalent of hours are so many “bells” (yes, a bell is rung) or “candles” (which do visibly burn down) from or to a measurable event, such as dawn/daybreak, dusk/nightfall, or noon (in the Realms, noon is “highsun”). Example: The tumult began three bells before nightfall.

“Midnight” is permissible usage, and “deepnight” is its ‘more Realmsian’ synonym.

When timing is important, Realms writers should work a reference to how many bells are struck in a day (“It was the task of Brother Blackhands to strike half of the twelve bells between dusk and dawn, with Sister Elphrana tolling the bells between—and another pair of the Devout handled the twelve bells of the bright hours.”) into the narrative to make it clear that a “bell” IS “an hour.”

In Tashluta and the Tashalar, Tharsult, and in some ports nearby, a “bell” (an hour) is called a “darmeth,” with the plural (hours) being “darmar.” As in: “It’ll be at least three darmar before he gets back.” or: “But that could take DARMAR, hrast it!” This usage seems to be spreading south.

In like manner, days in the realms are never referred to as “Monday,” “Tuesday,” or any real-world ‘weekday’ name. Most folk in the Realms refer to a particular day as thus far from “the first of Mirtul” or “the last of Eleint” or one of the annual festival days, or if they must be precise, will say something like “the first day of the first tenday of Ches.” If they were writing this date or speaking of it formally, it would become “1st Ches.”

Where we would say “a moment or two,” most humans in the Realms say “a breath or two”—and what we would call a minute is “a goodly breath or three.”

Dwarves tend to call the same span of time (actually, anything up to about three minutes) “but a little while,” whereas a halfling would call the same span of time “a long song.” To a halfling, a minute is “a tune,” and 10 minutes is “three long songs.” Most halflings tend to speak of longer time periods, within a day, in terms of how much the sun has progressed.Some of the above saw print in Polyhedron.
Ssussunriyh
07-30-05, 08:13 PM If you're describing how tall a person or an object is, you could use phrases such as "a handwidth shy of six feet," or "head and shoulders above a dwarf," or "a troll's height." There really isn't much need for precision, as long as you can give someone a decent idea of what you're talking about.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nighthawk08 07-29-05, 03:59 PM	how would you do measurement in the FR world?? I noticed in the FR books that have been written by various people have used distances by tendays, but how about height?? would that just be feet and inchs or handlengths or something??
Kuje31 07-29-05, 04:21 PM	Good question, and I don't believe it's ever been stated. :) Ed probably knows, so you can ask him over at Candlekeep.com. Of course, if you don't want to ask then I can go do it for you. :)
Gallameed 07-30-05, 03:12 AM	I bet its something with the letters "a" and "e" in quick succession. ;)
Ssussunriyh 07-30-05, 09:36 AM	In real life, weights and measures during the Middle Ages were a vast agglomeration of random events. Length was measured in fingers, hands, spans, feet, cubits, yards, miles, and days (the last being an estimate of how far a healthy person might travel at a walking pace, without overexerting himself.) Not only was there no agreed-on relationship between the various units, but the size of the unit varied from place to place. Every local lord declared how long a yard was for trading in textiles, the typical criteria being the distance from his nose to his outstretched fingertips. Thus, a yard could vary greatly depending on how tall or short the local high-muckety-muck happened to be. Weights were in worse shape. Cheese, wheat, and oats were all sold by the quarter, for example. A quarter of what, you ask? Why, a quarter of cheese, wheat, or oats! There was no "whole" or "half." But a quarter of wheat was more than five times larger than a quarter of cheese, which was maybe a hundred kilos. And a quarter of oats was bigger than the other two combined. And of course a quarter in one city was not equal to a quarter anywhere else. Even the calendars were messed up. In Italy, it was possible to leave Venice in the Spring of 1232, get to Florence a few weeks later in 1233, then go to Milan and find that it was 1231. You were lucky if everyone agreed which day was Sunday and what year it was. Some people began the new year on Christmas, some a week later, and some on the first of March. At least the FRCS has a standard calendar, although various regions count the years differently. DaleReckoning is usually given as the standard to avoid confusion. You also have feet, yards, pounds, fluid ounces, quarts, gallons, and tons, which are assumed to be more or less the same wherever you go.
Faraer 07-30-05, 02:03 PM	The sources mostly use ordinary Imperial measures such as feet, inches and pounds, occasionally rarer ones like quarts. There are also Realms-specific measures like handwidth (Pages from the Mages p. 4), and what we don't know is the degree to which the standard Imperial units are an abstraction of a more complex Realms situation. We can assume that local measures are certainly in effect to an extent. We do know that time in most of the sources is simplified from the Realms reality:Time in the Realms is NEVER measured in “hours” or “minutes.” Short-term waits can be measured in “breaths” but in cities, temples, and monasteries, the equivalent of hours are so many “bells” (yes, a bell is rung) or “candles” (which do visibly burn down) from or to a measurable event, such as dawn/daybreak, dusk/nightfall, or noon (in the Realms, noon is “highsun”). Example: The tumult began three bells before nightfall. “Midnight” is permissible usage, and “deepnight” is its ‘more Realmsian’ synonym. When timing is important, Realms writers should work a reference to how many bells are struck in a day (“It was the task of Brother Blackhands to strike half of the twelve bells between dusk and dawn, with Sister Elphrana tolling the bells between—and another pair of the Devout handled the twelve bells of the bright hours.”) into the narrative to make it clear that a “bell” IS “an hour.” In Tashluta and the Tashalar, Tharsult, and in some ports nearby, a “bell” (an hour) is called a “darmeth,” with the plural (hours) being “darmar.” As in: “It’ll be at least three darmar before he gets back.” or: “But that could take DARMAR, hrast it!” This usage seems to be spreading south. In like manner, days in the realms are never referred to as “Monday,” “Tuesday,” or any real-world ‘weekday’ name. Most folk in the Realms refer to a particular day as thus far from “the first of Mirtul” or “the last of Eleint” or one of the annual festival days, or if they must be precise, will say something like “the first day of the first tenday of Ches.” If they were writing this date or speaking of it formally, it would become “1st Ches.” Where we would say “a moment or two,” most humans in the Realms say “a breath or two”—and what we would call a minute is “a goodly breath or three.” Dwarves tend to call the same span of time (actually, anything up to about three minutes) “but a little while,” whereas a halfling would call the same span of time “a long song.” To a halfling, a minute is “a tune,” and 10 minutes is “three long songs.” Most halflings tend to speak of longer time periods, within a day, in terms of how much the sun has progressed.Some of the above saw print in Polyhedron.
Ssussunriyh 07-30-05, 08:13 PM	If you're describing how tall a person or an object is, you could use phrases such as "a handwidth shy of six feet," or "head and shoulders above a dwarf," or "a troll's height." There really isn't much need for precision, as long as you can give someone a decent idea of what you're talking about.