Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Iakhovas 11-16-03, 09:08 PM	Lord of Stormweather p.270 It opened easily, revealing an endless expanse of clockwork machinery--not just a room, but an entire world of gears and pistons and wheels. Cogs and levers formed the plains and the mountains, even the seas and clouds of the mechanical world. Tremendous clusters of pulleys and chains floated above the land like clouds. Everything was the color of metal: dull lead, bright brass, deep copper, black iron.I'm delighted to see that author Dave Gross included the Plane of Mechanus in his latest Forgotten Realms novel. It just proves you cannot divorce the Great Wheel from the Realms no matter how hard you try.
Ryltar Swordsong 11-17-03, 12:41 AM	I'm not trying very hard since my FR is still connected to the Great Wheel. I still can't understand why WotC decided to officially seperate the Realms from the cosmology that it had from the beginning.
Crust 11-17-03, 07:26 AM	I prefer the Great Wheel. The fact that the FR gods exist in these odd planes with no explanation or breakdown of the cosmology is very disappointing. I'll stick with the Great Wheel. What else can anyone do?
Darkmistress 11-17-03, 08:17 AM	I have yet to meet anyone who actually likes the new cosmology over the Great Wheel. So my eternal question remains: why did that change occur?
Gez 11-17-03, 09:47 AM	Sigh... The change occured because the Great Wheel's grouping of deities by alignment made no sense. The new FR cosmology was meant to give a grouping of deities by pantheons. One place for the dwarven gods (although not all of them are LG), one place for the Triad, etc. In the Great Wheel, Bast was with the Elven gods, while Isis was with the Dwarven gods. Now, Bast and Isis are together. But, since they separated deific outer planes (home of deities) and raw alignment outer planes (like the Abyss), they could have kept the Great Wheel in addition.
Another Gnome 11-17-03, 10:48 AM	I like the new cosmology. The "been-there-done-that" over-arrogant attitude of the Planescape setting was what I disliked the most about it, and I'm only too happy now that those multicosmic freaks can no longer claim to better know how and why things in the Realms work than the natives of the world do. Kick in the Planescape face the new cosmology is, and the more separate, the better! That said (and sort of referring to the starting post), Manual of the Planes (as well as FRCS) suggests that different realities can be connected to one another. Effectively, that makes Torilian cosmology still connected to Great Wheel, with the biggest difference being that a Realms-dweller taking a trip to the Abyss can now choose between Torilian Abyss and the Great Wheel Abyss, or any other Abyss for that matter (it simply requires rerouting via Plane of Shadow instead of straight through the Astral). I can't see what the problem with that is - FR players who want to adventure in a Planescape environment can do so as they always have, and those who prefer not to grovel in the feet of those self-proclaimed high-and-mighty know-and-be-it-all's, the Realms provide a safe haven where not even the mightiest of Sigil has any business sticking her nose into. And when the new cosmology finally gets fleshed out in PGtF, what more could one want? Well, now that I think of it, the bloody Spelljammers could be kicked out as well, but as long as they're not mentioned in any new product, it'll do...
Shemeska the Marauder 11-17-03, 12:00 PM	*the mightiest in Sigil sticks her sleek, well groomed, jackalesque snout into your safe haven* And here is where I make my obligatory comments about clueless backwater primes and their deluded, delihtfully misinformed views of planar mechanics. I withold my total judgement though till the PGtF comes out. From what I've heard, they're backtracking to some extent. Just not likely enough probably to either make sense or make me happy about it. Mount Celestia is going to be at least one plane included in the revised FR cosmology. So maybe there's hope of some sense yet being included here. Like terming the FR 'planes' as domains within the actual larger outer planes. Again with the obligatory, yet unspoken comments.
Ojin 11-17-03, 12:19 PM	I have to agree with Another Gnome, I actually really quite like the new FR cosmology. I prefer to see the deities grouped by portfolios and pantheons. It just seems to make more sense having all of the deities of magic (LN, NG, NE) in one place, all the Morndinsamman (LG, NG, N, NE, CG) located on a single plane, to have all the Seldarine (CG, CN) located on one plane, the Mulhorandi pantheon (LG, LE, NG, N, NE, CG) on their own plane, etc... When my group ran planar adventures, our motivation wasn't "let's head Gray Wastes/Hades or Mount Celestia/Seven Heavens and see what's out there" (although in fairness we did want to explore the planes to some extent, we just had more pressing needs as heroes back in Faerun). Rather our motivation was to rescue a friend trapped in the Palace of Loss from the minions of Shar (that one did't work so well) or present ourselves for judgement in The Court (domain name) of Tyr himself (that one had better consequences - I won't go in a rant about his other domain in Ysgard). My only quibble with the new cosmology is where certain extraplanar creatures go and that one is pretty simple to deal with using only minimal effort. This will get even easier with the Player's Guide to Faerun as it apparently explains that the Slaadi dwell in Warrior's Rest, Yugoloths are from Blood Rift (likely the battlefield of the Blood War), and so on. For those die hard fans of the Great Wheel, there's always transit through the Plane of Shadow or if Shemeska is correct that might not even be necissary. Just my two bits.
Kuje31 11-17-03, 01:20 PM	See I see the opposite. The changes to me dont make sense. Take Eilistraee for example, it doesn't make sense she lives in the Abyss.... She hates her mother and she's not evil. But I really don't want to get into this topic again, since we just had this discussion a week back. Unfortunally ripping the Wheel/Ring out of FR destroys so much FR history its just sad.
Faraer 11-17-03, 02:26 PM	To quote Ed G., "mortal PCs can't know the truth about the gods anyway, because every in-game source (supreme priests, avatars of the gods themselves, holy writings) they could possibly learn all this stuff from is biased". The planes are infinite, mysterious realms of which both the old and new maps are only maps, partial and fallible. Of course, nothing in the FRCS says that Nirvana/Mechanus, Limbo, and any other plane you want can't be reached from Toril as well as the gods' dwelling-places. Although the AD&D planes were added to the Realms before its official publication, in many ways the outer planes (based on equally important good-evil and law-chaos axes, and with names from Earth mythology) were never a close fit. The change I regret is the playing down of travel between worlds, one of the Realms' original cornerstones.
Xae'an 11-17-03, 07:36 PM	The main problem about the new cosmology is not the grouping of deities in pantheons instead of alignments, in fact that's a pretty good idea, the problem is that they never explained why the cosmology changed that significant, the avatar series novels are all based on the great wheel - and suddenly the Great Wheel doesn't exist any more - that makes no sense, they could have explained the whole situation, such as Ao rearranging the whole universe after the avatar crisis or the Trial of Cyric, but the didn't. IMO that is the reason why so many people dislike the new cosmology, entire worlds disapparing or coming into existence over night without any apperent reason or impact on Faerun is simply too hard to imagine.
Iakhovas 11-17-03, 07:46 PM	Originally posted by Faraer To quote Ed G., "mortal PCs can't know the truth about the gods anyway, because every in-game source (supreme priests, avatars of the gods themselves, holy writings) they could possibly learn all this stuff from is biased". The planes are infinite, mysterious realms of which both the old and new maps are only maps, partial and fallible.I'm not a PC. I'm a dungeon master and more importanly a Realms enthusiast and I want facts. I'll choose what information I wish to hide from my players. When the few facts I *do* get, change for no apparent reason, then I have a right be upset. The new cosmology break years and years of established canon. It's like waking up one day as an American and finding out that Canada and Mexico have disappeared. The Canadian and Mexican people still exist, but they now live together in a new country called "Dweomerheart". What!?! Don't worry, you can still get to Canada and Mexico but only if you travel through "The Shadow Plane" to get there! Huh?!?
Kuje31 11-17-03, 08:24 PM	Originally posted by Xae'an The main problem about the new cosmology is not the grouping of deities in pantheons instead of alignments, in fact that's a pretty good idea, the problem is that they never explained why the cosmology changed that significant, the avatar series novels are all based on the great wheel - and suddenly the Great Wheel doesn't exist any more - that makes no sense, they could have explained the whole situation, such as Ao rearranging the whole universe after the avatar crisis or the Trial of Cyric, but the didn't. IMO that is the reason why so many people dislike the new cosmology, entire worlds disapparing or coming into existence over night without any apperent reason or impact on Faerun is simply too hard to imagine. No most people dislike the new planes, because it rewrites almost twenty years of FR sourcebooks and novels. :) And a lot of the material of Planescape. Take the Orcus example for example, he came back in Planescape, but a lot of people argue he should not be a deity in FR since he did die. But if FR is not part of the Great Wheel/Ring, then Orcus really shouldn't be a deity in FR. Or Khelben didn't need to make his Warding Whip spells, since then he never met Mordinkien (sp?) from Greyhawk. And grouping deities by pantheons doesn't make sense either, as you can see from my example of Eilistraee. Why should a good deity live in a place of evil, like the Abyss?
Xae'an 11-17-03, 08:31 PM	Eilistreae resides in Aravandor most of the time, she has a realm in the Demonweb Pits too, but she rarely visits it. And even if she did, she might be a force of good in a place of evil, undermining the Abyss from within.
Kuje31 11-17-03, 08:52 PM	Originally posted by Xae'an Eilistreae resides in Aravandor most of the time, she has a realm in the Demonweb Pits too, but she rarely visits it. And even if she did, she might be a force of good in a place of evil, undermining the Abyss from within. Which again proves my point, since she exiled herself from Arvandor, after she accidently shot Corellon and almost killed him. So now she lives back in Arvandor..... Great another stupid idea. Sorry Eilistraee living in Arvandor or the Demonweb Pits is just plain stupid, unless you ignore every thing that's been written before. Or just ignore that stupid tree, and cut it down from it's base, so it falls over dead. Even F&P says she's still exiled from Arvandor, so how in the heck can she live in Arvandor?
Ryltar Swordsong 11-17-03, 10:41 PM	Actually, Eilistraee's realm, Svartalfheim, is on Nidavellir, the third layer of Ysgard. And no 3/3.5e FR product can convince me otherwise.
Kuje31 11-17-03, 10:45 PM	Originally posted by Ryltar Swordsong Actually, Eilistraee's realm, Svartalfheim, is on Nidavellir, the third layer of Ysgard. And no 3/3.5e FR product can convince me otherwise. I know that, but we were debating the stupid change where 3/3.5 FR isn't part of the Great Wheel/Ring. So according to those books Eilistraee lives in Arvandor (even though she's still exiled from Arvandor, according to the FRCS and Faiths & Pantheons) or the Demonweb Pits, which doesn't make any sense either.
Ryltar Swordsong 11-17-03, 10:55 PM	And my contribution to the debate was that I totally ignore the 3/3.5e FR cosmology for many reasons, including that brainless example.
Kuje31 11-17-03, 10:59 PM	Originally posted by Ryltar Swordsong And my contribution to the debate was that I totally ignore the 3/3.5e FR cosmology for many reasons, including that brainless example. :angel: The new planes always just make me :twitch:
Srinshee 11-17-03, 11:22 PM	So if we wanted to simulate Nidavellir/Svartalfheim in the 3e cosmology, we could just add a chunk of plane to warrior's rest, right?
David Lazaro Saz 11-18-03, 12:32 AM	I'm not getting all the references to the new planar organization... What books are available that describe them? The only one I can remember is the FRCS and the descriptions there are very short. I also know that the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide to Faerūn is supposed to describe it further but is is still some months away.
Kuje31 11-18-03, 12:45 AM	Originally posted by David Lazaro Saz I'm not getting all the references to the new planar organization... What books are available that describe them? The only one I can remember is the FRCS and the descriptions there are very short. I also know that the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide to Faerūn is supposed to describe it further but is is still some months away. Faiths & Pantheons has a little more info, since it lists the deities home planes. :)
Gez 11-18-03, 06:30 AM	Originally posted by Kuje31 See I see the opposite. The changes to me dont make sense. Take Eilistraee for example, it doesn't make sense she lives in the Abyss.... She hates her mother and she's not evil. No gods live in the Abyss. When I said that the new FR cosmology divorced deity planes from alignment planes, I mean that totally. The Abyss exist, but the closest thing to a deity you'll find there is a demon prince. That's why you could keep easily the whole Great Wheel. The Great Wheel is the alignment planes. It's inhabited by outsiders and their boss. But not the slightiest divine being in sight, unless they're touring in vacation. Warrior's Rest, House of the Triad, Barren of Doorm & Despair, etc. are, on the other hand, on the Great Tree. There are some connections between the Tree and the Wheel, but overall, not much. The Wheel is not directly accessible from the Prime, because of the weird form of the Astral.
David Lazaro Saz 11-18-03, 09:06 AM	Originally posted by Kuje31 Faiths & Pantheons has a little more info, since it lists the deities home planes. :) Uh, so this thing is REALLY new... Thank you for the answer!
Kuje31 11-18-03, 01:48 PM	Originally posted by Gez No gods live in the Abyss. I meant the Demonweb Pits. :). Sorry, my Great Wheel/Ring material was creeping in when I first wrote the Abyss, and if you read one of my other replies I fixed my mistake. Still my point stands it doesn't make sense for Eilistraee to live in the Demonweb Pits or Arvandor.
Kuje31 11-18-03, 01:49 PM	Originally posted by David Lazaro Saz Uh, so this thing is REALLY new... Thank you for the answer! Not that new. :). It came out a few sourcebooks ago. :)
Another Gnome 11-18-03, 02:36 PM	[quote]Still my point stands it doesn't make sense for Eilistraee to live in the Demonweb Pits or Arvandor.[quote] Technically she doesn't - she lives in her very own divine realm that is physically connected to Demonweb Pits/Arvandor. It's similar to me not living in the United States of America even if I share the same reality with the people there on the wrong side of the Atlantic. No physical barrier exists between the two countries, but they're still clearly separate from one another. * * * That reminds me, an earlier comparison between the changes in cosmology to Mexico and Canada disappearing would be more like the Andromeda star system suddenly jumping to the other side of the galaxy. Even if some people could tell it's happened, it'd have absolutely no effect to anything around here, except that our armada of interstellar spaceships would need to be rerouted.
Kuje31 11-18-03, 02:50 PM	Originally posted by Another Gnome Technically she doesn't - she lives in her very own divine realm that is physically connected to Demonweb Pits/Arvandor. It's similar to me not living in the United States of America even if I share the same reality with the people there on the wrong side of the Atlantic. No physical barrier exists between the two countries, but they're still clearly separate from one another.[/B] The FRCS says, "Arvandor: The elven pantheon (the Seldarine) and Eilistraee." "Each deity associated with a plane has a private realms attached to and PART OF (you forgot to add that part it seems) of that plane (as in she lives in Arvandor), much as the rooms of an inn is connected to the main hall." So she does have a realm in Arvandor itself, it's not "connected" to Arvandor. It is IN Arvandor itself. Or Faiths & Pantheons, "Homeplane: Arvandor (or the Demonweb Pits)."
David Lazaro Saz 11-18-03, 03:36 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 Not that new. :). It came out a few sourcebooks ago. :) It is in the perspective of the fourteen years I've been playing in the Realms, isn't it? :)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-18-03, 03:52 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 No most people dislike the new planes, because it rewrites almost twenty years of FR sourcebooks and novels. :) This is one of the main reasons I dislike the change. Did the cosmos *change*, or is the Great Wheel (in relation to the FR) considered to have never existed? If the FR has always been the way it is in 3E, does this mean the events in Tymora's Luck never happened? And that's just one example. The change I regret is the playing down of travel between worlds, one of the Realms' original cornerstones. I agree, Faraer. As a few posters mentioned before, does this mean Khelben, Elminster, and others have never had run-ins with the Greyhawk wizards (has the FR been fully divorced from the other game worlds besides just the planes???).
Kuje31 11-18-03, 03:52 PM	Originally posted by David Lazaro Saz It is in the perspective of the fourteen years I've been playing in the Realms, isn't it? :) True enough :)
Kuje31 11-18-03, 03:54 PM	Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin This is one of the main reasons I dislike the change. Did the cosmos *change*, or is the Great Wheel (in relation to the FR) considered to have never existed? If the FR has always been the way it is in 3E, does this mean the events in Tymora's Luck never happened? And that's just one example. I can't answer that, because there isn't a answer (maybe there might be one in the Player's Guide....).
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-18-03, 03:56 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 I can't answer that, because there isn't a answer (maybe there might be one in the Player's Guide....). That is more or less my point, though. :) There may be an answer in the future, but since the 3E Realms came out, we've just been left hanging.
Kuje31 11-18-03, 04:09 PM	Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin That is more or less my point, though. :) There may be an answer in the future, but since the 3E Realms came out, we've just been left hanging. Aye, well I haven't cause I cut that tree down and burned it's roots, so it never ever ever grows again. :)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-18-03, 04:11 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 Aye, well I haven't cause I cut that tree down and burned it's roots, so it never ever ever grows again. :) Good for you. :) I prefer the old system myself, but the new system supporters do make some good arguments for their case, as well.
Kuje31 11-18-03, 04:24 PM	Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin Good for you. :) I prefer the old system myself, but the new system supporters do make some good arguments for their case, as well. I guess they do? They haven't convinced me that the changes make sense though. :) But then I know i'm a stubborn :censored: and it takes a lot for me to change my mind, when i'm dead set against a change that doesn't make sense to me.
primemover003 11-18-03, 04:58 PM	Originally posted by Srinshee So if we wanted to simulate Nidavellir/Svartalfheim in the 3e cosmology, we could just add a chunk of plane to warrior's rest, right? Actually The Gates of the Moon would be a better fit than Warriors Rest (which is more like Limbo, than Ysgard). But like Ryltar, I too say Svartalfheim is Eilistraee's realm on Nidavellir, layer the 3rd, Ysgard.
David Lazaro Saz 11-18-03, 05:44 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 I guess they do? They haven't convinced me that the changes make sense though. :) But then I know i'm a stubborn :censored: and it takes a lot for me to change my mind, when i'm dead set against a change that doesn't make sense to me. Some words about change from Ed Greenwood seem appropriate here: Ed Greenwood interview (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Castle/2566/ed-interview.htm) As to the larger issue of change: well, unless excited by the possibilities of profit or something shiny and new, humans tend to hate change. We also tend to view our fantasy playing as a refuge from the ever-changing real world, particularly if we have high-stress jobs or frantic lifestyles. So change comes reluctantly... but my players and yours truly also view the Realms as real... and real places feature change all the time. I don't view the Realms as a static landscape that a designer is changing, but as a real place where consequences flow from events and actions, and change happens. It's a difference in approach that can best be illustrated by a common comment on the Realms list: "Your new Exploding Toadstools spell is useless, because Shrieker Blaster already does that a level lower and with a shorter casting time.
Kuje31 11-18-03, 06:12 PM	Originally posted by David Lazaro Saz Some words about change from Ed Greenwood seem appropriate here: True enough, but there's a difference between changing some thing, and just making tons of errors while doing it. I know the old list some of us put together about the plane changes has been buried, but it has over 30+ errors on it, because of the new changes in the planes. Yes Yes I know the old material "is no longer" used, but it still doesn't make it right to just invalidate almost 20 years of material and make glaring holes in the history of the world. Either stick with the Great Wheel/Ring or stick with the new planes. Stop putting portals to Sigil in the books (there's one in Faiths & Pantheons) or portals to Pandemonium (which is in the new Underdark sourcebook). Yes both are errors, but it is still confusing. Shrug, and well I know Ed doesn't even play 3/3.5, so yes his quote is useful, but then again it isn't really. You know, for those who are still reading this, here's the link for the mess they made with the new planes. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57419&highlight=sigil
David Lazaro Saz 11-18-03, 07:41 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 Either stick with the Great Wheel/Ring or stick with the new planes. Stop putting portals to Sigil in the books (there's one in Faiths & Pantheons) or portals to Pandemonium (which is in Underdark). Yes both are errors, but it is still confusing. I'm completely with you on this, Kuje. I'd like to see a good explanation and I hope that with time it would be given. After all, I remember more inconsistencies from the 2nd ed. era than I have seen in the third. So the new crew at the helm has all my support. :)
Kuje31 11-18-03, 08:06 PM	Originally posted by David Lazaro Saz I'm completely with you on this, Kuje. I'd like to see a good explanation and I hope that with time it would be given. After all, I remember more inconsistencies from the 2nd ed. era than I have seen in the third. So the new crew at the helm has all my support. :) Grin, well Ive seen more errors in 3e's 10 or so FR sourcebooks then I have in 1e's and 2e's 120+ sourcebooks. :) The planar changes alone cause most of it. And don't mention the glaring errors in the Silver Marches sourcebook. :)
CNichols 11-19-03, 12:19 AM	Originally posted by Kuje31 You know, for those who are still reading this, here's the link for the mess they made with the new planes. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57419&highlight=sigil Very interesting. If anyone is interested in further details on the links between the Forgotten Realms and Ravenloft campaign settings, I'd be most happy to supply them - they are actually surprisingly extensive. The above link touches on only a few of them. Chris Nichols
Kuje31 11-19-03, 12:23 AM	Originally posted by CNichols Very interesting. If anyone is interested in further details on the links between the Forgotten Realms and Ravenloft campaign settings, I'd be most happy to supply them - they are actually surprisingly extensive. The above link touches on only a few of them. Chris Nichols :). Well I don't need them since I have many of the 2e material on Ravenloft and most of the novels. :) And most of the 3e material also.
Another Gnome 11-19-03, 12:38 AM	Kuje31: The FRCS says, "Arvandor: The elven pantheon (the Seldarine) and Eilistraee." "Each deity associated with a plane has a private realms attached to and PART OF (you forgot to add that part it seems) of that plane (as in she lives in Arvandor), much as the rooms of an inn is connected to the main hall." I didn't forget to add that, I was taking a different viewpoint to it. The Seldarine can't actually prevent Eilistraee (not even Lolth should she feel like it), no matter how exiled she is, from walking around in Arvandor as such, as they don't control the entire plane (the rooms of an inn approach). Eilistraee could well have her realm on the plane and still remain separate from the elven pantheon residing there, just like she (probably) does with the drow pantheon. That is to say, it's only a problem if you make it look like a problem. ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-19-03, 12:38 AM	Originally posted by Kuje31 I guess they do? They haven't convinced me that the changes make sense though. :) But then I know i'm a stubborn :censored: and it takes a lot for me to change my mind, when i'm dead set against a change that doesn't make sense to me. I'm more or less the same way, myself. :) While the people who like the new system made some good arguments (all pantheons grouped together), it isn't enough to change my opinion, either. Then again, I know one plane (the Barrens of Doom and Despair) is full of gods who aren't "grouped" together at all, and differ not only in terms of alignment (LE and CE), but also dogma--by this I mean they are not "strung" together like, say, the deities of Fury's Heart are. Not to mention that they hate each other and aren't allies, for the most part, but that can be true on any evil plane.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-19-03, 12:42 AM	Originally posted by Kuje31 True enough, but there's a difference between changing some thing, and just making tons of errors while doing it. And not explaining why and how the change even occured (in Realms terms, not designer's terms).
Kuje31 11-19-03, 01:43 AM	Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin I'm more or less the same way, myself. :) While the people who like the new system made some good arguments (all pantheons grouped together), it isn't enough to change my opinion, either. Then again, I know one plane (the Barrens of Doom and Despair) is full of gods who aren't "grouped" together at all, and differ not only in terms of alignment (LE and CE), but also dogma--by this I mean they are not "strung" together like, say, the deities of Fury's Heart are. Not to mention that they hate each other and aren't allies, for the most part, but that can be true on any evil plane. Aye yup, and originally I wasn't going to reply to this thread, since we've had this arguement over and over again for three years almost. But this is the one realms change that I guess I just really really really dislike. It doesn't effect me that much since I have the old material, but as the saying goes, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." The old planes were not broke, and now there are many many holes in FR's history because of this dumb change. And your right, if they were going to change it (and again maybe the Player's Guide might have info on this) then explain how it came about as a IN GAME reason. And where do the rest of the pantheons fit, like Maztica's, Kara-tur's, Zakhara's, Giant's, etc...... Oh wait, they got "killed off" cause "There was to many deities in FR."
Kuje31 11-20-03, 11:22 PM	Hmmm. Posted on Sean's boards. http://pub17.ezboard.com/fseankreynoldsboardsfrm2.showMessageRang e?topicID=780.topic&start=21&stop=29 -------------------------------------------------------------------- "A bit more information was revealed on Friday night during, of all things, the Book of Exalted Deeds chat at WotC's site: kalex says, "Considering the confusion concerning the cosmology of core 3E and the Forgotten Realms, what are your opinions on what can be used from the BOED in a Forgotten Realms campaign? /ga" james_wyatt says, "Just wait'll you see the Player's Guide to Faerun..." james_wyatt says, "I think it's all usable. In fact, we moved Mount Celestia into the Realms cosmology specifically to make more of it usable. (It's a part of another plane.)" Presumably, Mount Celestia was moved onto the House of the Triad, the non-racial Lawful Good plane in the FR cosmolgy, and the one which holds the deities that "used to" live in the Seven Heavens. I'd imagine that certain other planar features made their way into the FR cosmology as well, but will have to see just which ones made it, and which did not. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Duke Sammael Baby Bean Posts: 27 (11/18/03 11:43 pm) Reply Re: [FR] Some Player's Guide to Faerūn Tidbits ------------------------------------------------------------------- So, let me see... we'll make the FR cosmology unique... by creating a bunch of new planes and then copy/pasting elements of the Great Wheel into it? I knew this would happen. And if this is the way they are handling it, they might as well have left the Great Wheel. ----------------------------------------------------------------- seankreynolds Vomit-Flavored Bean Posts: 4166 (11/19/03 7:05 am) Reply ezSupporter Re: [FR] Some Player's Guide to Faerūn Tidbits ------------------------------------------------------------------- Heh.... -- Sean K Reynolds http://www.seankreynolds.com Check out my two newest books, Anger of Angels and Path of the Magi --------------------------------------------------------------- Garen Thal Look at the big brain on me! Posts: 1056 (11/19/03 11:11 am) Reply Re: [FR] Some Player's Guide to Faerūn Tidbits ---------------------------------------------------------------- "So, let me see... we'll make the FR cosmology unique... by creating a bunch of new planes and then copy/pasting elements of the Great Wheel into it? I knew this would happen. And if this is the way they are handling it, they might as well have left the Great Wheel." I can't say that I'm thrilled with the decision, but certain elements of the FR cosmology are drawn from the D&D cosmology anyway. The Abyss is the Abyss, and Hell is Hell; in fact, Ed Greenwood's description of the Nine Hells is what became the official D&D version (again, because back then, there was only one cosmology). I think this was more of a concession to fans of the Great Wheel cosmology that wanted to continue using the traditional planes in their campaigns than anything else. I'm not defending the choice (it certainly isn't one I'd have made), but my feeling is that it's not just "let's rearrange the Wheel for FR."
Mirtek 11-21-03, 06:04 AM	Originally posted by Gez [...] The change occured because the Great Wheel's grouping of deities by alignment made no sense. The new FR cosmology was meant to give a grouping of deities by pantheons. One place for the dwarven gods (although not all of them are LG), one place for the Triad, etc. And this new system of grouping the deities makes even less sense. IMO it's a "strange" (to do not break any CoC) move to place them by pantheon and not by alignment which makes absolutely no sense. There are now living deities together who would never ever willingly live this close to each other. And they didn't even to it for all of them, while now the other pantheons were moved together, the faerunian pantheon is still clustered over the whole planes. So why didn't they ban all faerunian gods to a single place as well? Bane and Cyric as neighbours might look stupid, but it's not any different from making Set and Horus-Re into neighbours.
Iakhovas 11-21-03, 07:18 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 james_wyatt says, "I think it's all usable. In fact, we moved Mount Celestia into the Realms cosmology specifically to make more of it usable. (It's a part of another plane.)" In other words. We didn't put Mount Celestia back to enhance the setting... No, we put it back so that we can sell more BOED sourcebooks.