Post/Author/DateTime	Post
guru7892 06-09-04, 10:48 PM	ok, my dm is planing starting a forgotten realms campaighn this summer, but he has been acusing me of meta-gaming when i've been looking through the forgotten realms campaighn setting book. now i really dont know how this is metagaming, and at first glance it looks like it, but what really is in the book? all it really has is a little bit about each place in faerun, and the general thoughts of the people. and personally i dont know what the campaigh is about, only the city. now unless knowing the major imports and exports, population, and other crap is metagaming, am i doing something wrong? could i also be doing something right? what are your thoughts on players knowing the places of faerun? (if you must know the city is athkatla)
aravilar_holistacia 06-09-04, 11:14 PM	In my opinion that wouldn't be metagaming. Unless your DM took his campaign idea right from the book, I don't see why you can't read about the city's people. Unless he wants to have your characters obtain ranks in Knowledge (Athkatla local) or something.
Boz Shulun 06-10-04, 02:02 AM	Unless your DM wants all of the characters to be recently unearthed from under a rock, I don’t see why you couldn’t know about the world around you. Sure minute details about every nation, city, etc. would be a bit much. But knowing basic knowledge about your neighboring nations would be completely believable. I would find it frustrating to try to play a game, having ranks in Knowledge (history) or (geography) and have to constantly ask… “Who are they?” or “Where is that?”
Lashan 06-10-04, 06:26 AM	Perhaps you should look at different books? I guess it all depends on what it is you are looking at. Lords of Darkness isn't a good one to look at. Some parts of the FRCS might not be good to look at. Races of Faerun might be good to view, as it most likely doesn't have stuff that ruins the game in it, but gives good character background. I think that your DM might be wanting to show FR to your gaming group through his eyes and he is going to enjoy doing so. If you look ahead, it ruins his fun. Another idea is to try to find out what area your character is from, and then read up on that area. Not the stuff that only the DM knows, but other things such as city names or import/export stuff would be ok.
Cthulhu 06-10-04, 02:38 PM	I think Lashan has the right of it. Its simple courtesy to the person doing all the hard work of putting together the campaign. If he asks you not to read certain books than simply don't read them. You will get the information you need from your DM. That said forbidding access to the FRCS might be a little extreme. Unless your group is composed of canon monkeys who scream if anything is the little bit off there shouldn't really be a problem with it. Its full of generic info that is good for players to know.
Autosponge 06-10-04, 05:20 PM	Don't delve too deeply into the included adventure scenarios in case your DM wants to run one or more of them. But you can certainly read up on the description passages about people, places, faiths, etc. The more you know, the better your character background should be.
guru7892 06-10-04, 11:42 PM	well, im planing on doing alot of reading on the calimshan area, and probably some ports, since my father is a merchant and i was a pirait, untill my boat crashed into the sword coast... i was mostly planing on learning ports and the area of claimshan and chult, the place where my father did the majority of his trading. but during his days as a mate he sailed as far north as waterdeep, and as far south as, well chult. and i, being a pirait have done the same. the onlything i know about athkatla is that they import calimshan weapons, wether or not its leagal, they still are the best weapons in calimshan, and probably the best in all of faerun, not counting some dwarfich axes and hammers, only swords... he he he, i love advertising my fahters weapons, and i really need to get out of charictar... but yes i plan on learning the big ports in faerun, but ill casually not go into athkata because the gaurds would kill us from the amount of loot me and my captain have stolen form their ships.
Lashan 06-11-04, 12:19 PM	I would suggest asking about the FRCS. There is information in there that could spoil things for new time FR fans. Sure, a lot of the info is generic, but there is a lot that might spoil things. The players might not know some of the high level stuff, or about all the gods, or....who knows what? I say if your DM won't let you read some stuff, then I would advice against it. I would ask him if there are even portions of books that you can read. He should be happy that you are making the extra effort for the game, but don't spoil his fun.
Monsoon28 06-11-04, 01:05 PM	How about asking the DM to photocopy the sections that might help in developing your pirate's background, then he can blackout/cutout sections he doesn't want you to look at (such as Plots and Rumors.) It wouldn't make sense if your character didn't know anything about the Nelanther Isles, Lantan, Calimshan... This is of course if he's the only one with the book, would be pointless if you then just grabbed the book from someone else.
guru7892 06-12-04, 02:15 AM	Originally posted by Monsoon28 How about asking the DM to photocopy the sections that might help in developing your pirate's background, then he can blackout/cutout sections he doesn't want you to look at (such as Plots and Rumors.) It wouldn't make sense if your character didn't know anything about the Nelanther Isles, Lantan, Calimshan... This is of course if he's the only one with the book, would be pointless if you then just grabbed the book from someone else. ACUALLY IM UNDER THE IMPRESSION OF TWO THINGS -ONE; I HAVE CAP LOCKS ON -two: im the only one with the book, why my dm is seeming run a faerunian campaighn with out the faerunian guide, ill never know. but he keeps telling me stuff about the campiaghn, well i more talk to him and me more tell me stuff, but its not like my char knows it, and as long as theres a big hat somewhere, hes in!
At 06-12-04, 04:38 AM	Perhaps that's why he doesn't want you reading it... Perhaps he is simply using the skeleton of the setting and filling it up with his own material? Otherwise I'm not sure what the problem is.
Monsoon28 06-12-04, 05:33 AM	If he can't be even bothered to purchase the FRCS, I don't think he has any right to call you anything, The book is filled with alot of useful Player Info and it is YOUR book. Ask him what bothers him about you reading it? Other than 'Plots and Rumors', the Green Bones adventure at the back and some monster stats, there is nothing really wrong with you reading it. Ask if he changed the history somewhat, your character is from Toril so he is likely to know something, What year is he placing the campaign in? This might have something to do with it?
The_EvilDungeon_Master 06-14-04, 11:51 PM	Hi all, as Guru's DM mayhaps I should explain some things. The reason I told him not to metagame, was that he was looking up all the information that he could on the exact area my campaign was taking place in. I have no qualms with him reading all the other sections, I'd just rather him not know everything about Athkatla, considering that his character doesn't even come from there and has never been there (That's important to the plot, actually). Having minor knowledge upon the area, that's fine with me, I'd just rather you don't know everything considering that I probably missed a thing or two anyway, Guru. Also, it's not so much that I "Can't be bothered to buy the FRCS" rather than I "Don't really have much money and I can get most all of the info I need online anyway". -TEDM
Boz Shulun 06-15-04, 12:44 AM	Nuff Said.
ruleslawyer 06-15-04, 04:39 PM	Just to be precise, this is not metagaming. It might be defined as "cheating" (reading privileged information to gain unfair advantage), though that's hardly a fair word for what happened here. "Metagaming" means acting totally out of character in order to exploit particular aspects of the rules that have no physical existence in the game world. For example, a player that has his 3rd-level rogue disbelieve an ancient red dragon because "the DM would never put something of that high a CR in this dungeon" is metagaming. But I digress...
Monsoon28 06-16-04, 04:23 AM	Evil DM, Just sounds like you needed to explain your reasons to guru, but then again you are Eeeevvill.
The_EvilDungeon_Master 06-16-04, 07:38 PM	Originally posted by Monsoon28 Evil DM, Just sounds like you needed to explain your reasons to guru, but then again you are Eeeevvill. I have obtained Enlightened Evilness! I can now do evil deeds subconciously!
guru7892 06-17-04, 01:29 AM	considering you dont own the book, i have no idea how much is valid. second there really isnt very much information on anything, least reading the section wouldnt tell me anything about the camapighn. personally i found more about the campaighn by talking to the 'evil' dm over a msn messager than i probably could have by reading the exerpt about athkatla. the FRCS does a good job of saying enough but not to much, thus making a very flexable area. from what hes acually told me about the camaighn i could cheat or 'metagame' my char to a large degree, something im not going to do, becasue piraits just dont have the kind of things that i would need. so will somebody please tell me a very minor detail about a city form the FRCS, i doubt you could find one. (and no portal locations or crossroads, because i sail a ship gall dang it (well acually my (now dead) captain does, i just go on the other ships and take the loot, as well as other shipbard jobs) im rambling on again arnt I? well... BUY CALIMSHAN RAPIERS!!!
Monsoon28 06-17-04, 04:59 AM	Well if you really wanted to learn more on Athkatla the City of Coin, I'd suggest getting your hand on ADD2E's: Volo's Guide to Baldur's Gate II as well as FR3 Empires of the Sands (with info on the entire region), also you might be interested in Empires of the Shining Sea (Calimport and the Lake of Steam specific). But NO Metagaming! ;)
Monsoon28 06-17-04, 05:09 AM	Well if you really wanted to learn more on Athkatla the City of Coin, I'd suggest getting your hand on ADD2E's: Volo's Guide to Baldur's Gate II as well as FR3 Empires of the Sands (with info on the entire region), also you might be interested in Empires of the Shining Sea (Calimport and the Lake of Steam specific). But NO Metagaming! ;)
The_EvilDungeon_Master 06-17-04, 05:27 PM	Originally posted by guru7892 personally i found more about the campaighn by talking to the 'evil' dm over a msn messager than i probably could have by reading the exerpt about athkatla. the FRCS does a good job of saying enough but not to much, thus making a very flexable area. from what hes acually told me about the camaighn i could cheat or 'metagame' my char to a large degree, I don't tell you anything that would allow you to cheat, other than the name of the city.
guru7892 06-17-04, 07:41 PM	Originally posted by The_EvilDungeon_Master I don't tell you anything that would allow you to cheat, other than the name of the city. but isnt the campaigh about a theif guild and a vampire group battleing it out on the strees of la, umm i mean athkatla?
Nightingale 7 06-19-04, 10:39 AM	but isnt the campaigh about a theif guild and a vampire group battleing it out on the strees of la, umm i mean athkatla? cough,cough (BG2) cough,cough!
Lomir 06-19-04, 04:01 PM	I dont see what the problem is even if he whould know about the area in detail as long as he treats it ooc info.
Chewbacca's LightSaber 06-19-04, 04:45 PM	My two cents... IMHO I don't think reading the FRCS is metagaming but that's just me. If my GM asked me not to read something, even if I thought he was nuts, I wouldn't. Probably because he's my friend and there's a certain level of trust there. Which brings me to my next point... Trust... is it there? Guru have you been caught or accused of metagaming in the past? Maybe your GM is just being extra cautious with you. Also if my GM was going to run a campaign and didn't own the setting and I did, I might consider loaning it to him. Now EVERYBODY sing!!! ~THAT'S WHAT FRIENDS ARE FOR!!!~:D But seriously, think about. Now where did I put those two cents?:nonono: Edited: It's too nice a day to be snide.
guru7892 06-21-04, 12:13 AM	Originally posted by Chewbacca's LightSaber My two cents... IMHO I don't think reading the FRCS is metagaming but that's just me. If my GM asked me not to read something, even if I thought he was nuts, I wouldn't. Probably because he's my friend and there's a certain level of trust there. Which brings me to my next point... Trust... is it there? Guru have you been caught or accused of metagaming in the past? Maybe your GM is just being extra cautious with you. Also if my GM was going to run a campaign and didn't own the setting and I did, I might consider loaning it to him. Now EVERYBODY sing!!! ~THAT'S WHAT FRIENDS ARE FOR!!!~:D But seriously, think about. Now where did I put those two cents?:nonono: Edited: It's too nice a day to be snide. well i havent meta-gamed befor ( nor have i ever, except this accusation), but i have been a pain in the ass, mostly because im a leo and hes a something else, we both like to control and we often are at odds. im also a very argumentitive person that is good at getting my point accross. also the edm lives a good distence from me and i dont trust the american postal system ( well i just dont use it) but i will lend him my copy of the FRCS when it is the easiest for me to do so.
JRR 06-23-04, 04:44 PM	I actually encourage my players to read the FRCS, I just get tired of explaining EVERYTHING to them. As many of the posters have said, it doesn't contain enough to spoil a campaign. Don' you know something about Asia? Mexico? South America? Have you been to all those places? Plus the DM has freedom to change it to work for him. So the FRCS isn't the end all be all.
guru7892 06-23-04, 09:43 PM	Originally posted by guru7892 well i havent meta-gamed befor ( nor have i ever, except this accusation) blah blah blah blah blah blah yak yak yak ok befor any one says something, i know no really i do
The_EvilDungeon_Master 06-24-04, 08:38 PM	Originally posted by Nightingale 7 cough,cough (BG2) cough,cough! Well actually I was just asking him a question based on his character, and I was playing BG2 a ton that day... :D
ruleslawyer 06-25-04, 08:36 PM	Originally posted by Monsoon28 Well if you really wanted to learn more on Athkatla the City of Coin, I'd suggest getting your hand on ADD2E's: Volo's Guide to Baldur's Gate II as well as FR3 Empires of the Sands (with info on the entire region), also you might be interested in Empires of the Shining Sea (Calimport and the Lake of Steam specific). But NO Metagaming! ;) Actually, Lands of Intrigue (available for free on the WotC site) is a more complete and up-to-date treatment of Amn than Empires of the Sands.
Monsoon28 07-03-04, 05:27 PM	Doh! Thanks ruleslawyer, totally forgot about that one! :nonono: I even have the free d/l myself...can't believe I forgot :nonono: Edit: on a side-note, funny enough my current PBEM has landed us in Athkatla! Laughed when I found myself there.
Decepticons 07-05-04, 12:51 AM	Don' you know something about Asia? Mexico? South America? Have you been to all those places? Yes but I have a television, the internet, and access to many books...most people in FR don't have access to any one of the above, let alone all three. As a DM, I personally wouldn't run something "canned" out of the FRCG, but that's just me. I have forbidden my players to read certain sections of certain books in the past. Since one of those players DM's as well, I can't really cut him off, but we do try to keep our campaigns from overlapping and requiring the same splat books at the same time. Luckily FR is a big place. That being said, if your DM asked you not to read something, you probably shouldn't, especially if the other members of the party don't have access to that book. I'll also say this. In the past, I openly caught a character cheating. He basically hosed himself by telling me his character would walk up the stairs to the east, when I hadn't told the party there were stairs to the east yet. From that point on I knew he was using a copy of the map I had, and went out of my way to test him. After he took 20 to search two rooms that the original material said contained hidden treasure, I knew I wasn't just chasing phantoms and went out of my way to kill him. Regarless of your Zodiac sign, it's best to do what the DM requests of you. I find that it extends life.