Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Alchemidus 10-26-03, 01:45 AM	I was wondering if anyone out there knew more about the illithiads deity, i forget the name off the top of my head. Espicailly the dogma and stuff like that. I have searched through pantheons and deitys of fearun and psionics handbook mosters of fearun and even some non WOTC materail to find it. It is listed breifly in the fearun's deity book but no description of it. Any help would be greatly appriacited
Israfel666 10-26-03, 01:56 PM	The only info about Ilsensine that I know of is a brief, 1-page description of her divine realm (the Cavern of Thought) in the Planescape sourcebook Sigil and Beyond (part of the Planescape Box Set)
The_Sleeper 10-26-03, 02:06 PM	Tproblem with this is that so very little is actually known about Illithid origins and their god. What little i have found is by no means canon and took hours to find on the net. I have an article i found a while back saved so ill post it for you here. I dont remember where i found it though. I hope this helps, but be warned, it might be a long read. You also might want to check out this site: www.planewalker.com/loz/index.shtml The origins of the illithid race By Jurgen Hansa. Well met, fair reader. Since you are reading this dissertation, I am assuming you know the basics of illithid life, powers and society. An excellent work on these matters is found in a volume called ‘The Illithiad’, which I gather is a pun on the author’s home world. While I in no way wish to degrade that excellent work, it left some big gaps in vital areas. I feel that the true key to understanding the illithids is to look at their origins. If we can understand their beginnings and their strange god(s) we might be able to understand the illithids and find an effective weapon against them. If nothing else, it is a fascinating study. * * * * * * * The best source of history regarding the origins of the illithids are the so-called Sargonne Prophecies, a set of tablets older than most civilizations (and, indeed, some Prime worlds!). While little concrete is said, it mentions the arrival of an immense object that crashed into a world, bearing illithids onboard. Exactly where this thing came from, no one knows. The current theory that carries most weight is the mysterious ‘place’ beyond the known Multiverse called the Far Realm (or the Beyond, or the Outside). I don’t believe this theory. I think it was a spelljamming vessel (or something similar) that came from another Prime world, or another plane, probably the Astral, considering the illithid’s fondness of that plane. Theory of illithid evolution. Why must there be an earlier version of the illithids? Consider this: the illithids are dependent on thrall races for propagation of the species. They may produce offspring, but these offspring require humanoid beings to merge with to become true illithids. I seriously doubt that illithids sprung fully formed into their present shape, with thralls at the ready. What then is the original form? The neothelid. Neothelids nowadays occur when the following conditions are met: 1) an illithid community is destroyed, or leaves the Elder Brain pool and vanishes. 2) There are some surviving illithid tadpoles 3) One eats all the others, and then crawls out of the pool to search for food on its own. 4) It eats the brain of a sentient creature. Obviously, neothelids are rare. Yet I believe this is the original form of the illithid. Through painstaking research, and much luck, I have been able to discover some neothelids living alone. Like illithids, they are hermaphroditic, and at some periods lay eggs in shallow, warm pools. These eggs hatch to tadpoles identical to illithid tadpoles! With the help of some powerful friends, I made one pool my laboratory. If left on its own, the tadpoles swim and eat each other. The last tadpole crawls out, and becomes a new neothelid. Also, this mindless beast procured food for its offspring, even without the intelligence to think of this on its own, or the presence of older ‘parent’ neothelids to pass this behavior on to its young. Of course, the concept of neothelid ‘parents’ is one that hardly merits close consideration. While I hesitate to proclaim that I have at last beyond doubt found that neothelids are the original form of the illithids, I think it quite likely. Yet the problem still remains. Even if they grow to the immense, slug-like beings that are neothelids they must still devour a sentient brain in order to manifest their intelligence. The only native intelligence any expeditions have found on the Sunset world were the illithids, leaving us with a pretty puzzle. However, there are native anthropoid life forms on the Sunset world. They look little like humans or elves or dwarves, or gith or any commonly seen sentient life on the planes, yet are bisymmetrical and sentient. To a degree. They are basically brutish, have no discernible culture or society, and have barely figured out that hitting others with a stick is more effective than using your hands. Still, this is more than the neothelids have before they eat sentient brains. I have been as yet unable to procure any illithid specimens native to Ssrik Akuar, nor any of its anthropoids. Even if I could, I could hardly be so evil as to allow any being, however brutish, to be killed and transformed into a mind flayer. Future expeditions are necessary! But I digress. Assuming that at one point a neothelid encounters sentient life; something that has never happened before in the history of the two species involved. What happened then? It would seem likely that the neothelid would eat the brain and become sentient. Then we would have a sentient neothelid, not an illithid. How then would illithids have arisen? A neothelid experiment? An accident? Intervention by a third party? Or perhaps instead of being eaten, the food (read: sentient being) was deposited at the side of a pool of spawn; still alive, but only barely. The budding neothelids would have found an easy opening to start eating: the ear (or nose, or analogue of those things on the being in question). Then strange things would occur. Why would the ceremorphosis take place? Why wouldn’t the host die, and the spawn merely become a neothelid? Again, was there some third party in play here? The Sunset world. I believe this world to be the one where the illithids first arose. The githzerai know of this world, and were my guides on it. They do not believe this world to be the homeworld of the illithids, despite the similarities between the life forms and the fact that nowhere has there been found, or rather, reported, more ancient than here. The Sunset world, or Ssrik Akuar, is very different from most Prime worlds (at least those we are generally aquatinted with). The flora and fauna is almost wholly different than normal worlds, with few humanoid life forms, or normal animals (such as birds, deer, fish, lizards, dragons, etc.) The plants seem to be nearly sentient, or at least partially mobile, and slimes, oozes and amorphic beings of all kinds are found in abundance. Most noticeable, perhaps, is the sun. The sun of this world is small and dim, about half the size of the suns of most Prime worlds. This means that even on the brightest day, it is very dark and shadowy. If illithids did indeed first come into being on the Sunset world, this might just explain the abhorrence they hold for the suns of our worlds. Despite the noticeable absence of recognizable life forms here, there are plenty of analogs. There are many 'plants’ and ‘animals’, and nearly all of them seem to follow the same basic pattern; soft, pulp-like flesh, and tentacles. There are a number of different creatures that bear the same general characteristics as the illithids. Primarily is the presence of tentacles, nearly always found in multiples of four, often with an orifice at the center. Though there are some few colonies of mind flayers living here, the world seems nearly free of sentient life. This was not always so, since we found many ruins of ancient illithid cities. Talking of the illithids, the illithids of Ssrik Akuar are different than the illithids found on most other worlds. It is hard to describe to novices in what way, but the difference between the githyanki and the githzerai springs to mind. From what I have seen it is somewhat less than between those two estranged races, at least physically. I have not seen any of the ‘normal’ illithids on this world, and my ‘zerai guides didn’t know of any. This could arise from the fact that I have yet to see any familiar humanoids here. If they have none, what do they use for ceremorphosis? Why this place was abandoned, we can but speculate, but there were some records of the illithids making a new world. It would seem logical that this world was Penumbra, which the unimaginable might of the Illithid Empire somehow managed to create. But it leaves nagging questions. Why are there only these strange illithids on Ssrik Akuar? Why do they seem far less advanced than the ‘normal’ ones? What really happened? To conclude, I believe I have found what species the illithids first evolved from, and where they did it, but I have yet to find out how. Perhaps later, I shall have the answer. (And the reply by Phil Smith, the Phillithid) Barash Vah, currently adrift in the Ethereal Plane Dear Professor Hansa, That the illithids are a spacefaring race cannot of course be doubted; any student of gith lore, or indeed of the illithids, will know that the illithids are a major race in arcane space, and furthermore that they once held a vast interspheric empire. Having travelled to Ssirik Akuar, and conferred with sources who claim to have travelled to Penumbra, I find that there are many gaps that need to be filled. I fear, however, that my theories are in danger of conflicting with your own. My method, I think is simple; I wish to achieve a form of synthesis, addressing both the Far Realm thesis and your own Sunset World antithesis. In doing so, I hope to present a plausible theory that, while probably missing some fine details, will provide a slightly better fit for the known facts. That Penumbra was a later seat of the illithid empire and not a homeworld cannot be doubted; having studied the artifacts brought back as I have, I am sure you are as aware as I am that Penumbra is an artificial world. An exodus from Ssirik Akuar is quite likely too; your examples of other native life-forms, or illithidae, is particularly compelling. However, I feel that in examining the peculiarities of the species there, you may have neglected some of the simpler attributes that they have in common. Each species reproduces in an amphibian manner -- by laying soft eggs which hatch into tadpoles of a remarkably similar type. However, as you note, illithids reproduce by ceremorphosis -- the humanoid form is not their natural shape. Who is to say, therefore, that the other illithidae have their forms as a natural shape. They could also achieve ceremorphosis, albeit not in a manner quite so regimented as that favoured by the illithids. Looking to the neothelid, I feel I have to disagree that this is necessarily the natural development of the illithid tadpole; my reason for this is that such a development is in fact neoteny -- the inhibition of the process of metamorphosis. While this does occur in nature -- look to the world of insects and observe the queen bee, or indeed to the world of amphibia and observe the axolotl -- this is not the only natural process. The neothelid is in fact an overgrown tadpole. I suggest, dear Sir, that there is an alternative -- or indeed that there are several alternatives! Beside ceremorphosis (in the case of illithids) or neoteny (in the case of the neothelid) there is always the possibility of straightforward metamorphosis. Largely conjectural, one might say, and in earlier times I would be inclined to agree. However, among samples brought back from Penumbra were the carcasses of creatures who bore many similarities to illithid tadpoles, which we have come to describe as illithocytes. These creatures, while only semi-intelligent, are able to bond together in clusters, and feed upon energy within the psychosphere of a planet rather than the traditional cephalophagy of such related creatures. Other developments may of course be conceivable; quadropedal amphibia may be another development. Of course, one mystery needs to be solved; what prompted the first ceremorphosis? While I cannot pretend to offer a truly definitive answer to such a question, I suspect that in this mystery lies a reason for neothelids not becoming the standard development as opposed to the illithid; if neothelids were truly the dominant form of development, would they lower themselves to the extent of assuming the human form? Such creatures, if discovered, would merely be dissolved and their brains eaten. You do of course note this problem with your usual rigour, but I feel the idea of humanoid specimens being deposited for easier feeding is perhaps a little too glib. Neothelids are as vile as their illithid cousins, and possess comparable levels of intelligence -- however, they are invariably isolated and not particularly family-orientated. Such charity would, I think, be quite beyond them. As to the third party thesis, I shall address that later in my missive. With these levels of doubt brought back, I think other theories can be entertained. I maintain that the Far Realm holds some answers. Whenever breaches through the barriers of space and time are made, the realm contaminates all it touches. Pseudonatural creatures come through, and indigenous creatures are twisted -- the wystes and dharculi being classic examples. There are places on worlds where the barriers are not quite as rigid as we would like. I suspect that Ssirik Akuar has many such places -- the world bears many species that we would readily class as aberrations -- indeed, they are in a majority. The idea of proto-illithids you propose does bear thinking about, sir. I suggest that native humanoids on the sunset world may have journeyed through such a breach and become infected. Such specimens would of course have been rather more primitive than the beings we know and loathe now, but within a few generations of higher intelligence and greater lifespans their sophistication would have advanced sufficiently to resemble modern illithids. The acquisition of humans and other such species would, I think, have occurred once they had developed series helms and ventured beyond their sphere. We are led at last to the third party thesis. We are also left with the matter of Ilsensine, the god-brain of the mind flayers. In combining the two, I fear that my theory is rather alarmist, but I shall describe it anyway, in the hope that it will be disproved. If the mind flayers are from the Far Realm, then it is quite possible that Ilsensine is a similarly alien being. Having a significant amount of believers, it could easily find its way into the Outer Planes and establish a domain. However, as we all know, powers tend to gravitate toward the Outer Plane that most closely matches their respective alignments. That Ilsensine is evil cannot be doubted. Why, then, is it located in the Outlands rather than the Grey Waste? Sheer force of will and belief is one possible idea. The God-Brain would benefit more from location at the hub of the Great Wheel; more beings pass through the Outlands. Indeed, the City of Doors is located above it. Ilsensine seeks knowledge and influences. Few other places are quite so useful. Indeed, Ilsensine's influence seems to be extending once again -- the reaches of the Caverns of Thought have touched upon the Dwarven Mountain and Gzemnid's Realm. I feel that we can discard the Astral Plane thesis, however; few races are native -- I feel the illithid interest in the Astral is purely a strategic one; it extends everywhere, and is an ideal medium of travel. Furthermore, it is the home of their fiercest enemies. If I were at war with a species committed to my extinction, I for one would wish to know exactly where they were! Finally, Sir, I find that the elemental compass you sold me has broken down again. I would be grateful if you would direct me to a being capable of repairing it before I end up entombed in the Plane of Earth again. I remain, Sir, Your faithful colleague, Barash Vah And on the subject, something about illithid gods. An extract of the thesis 'On the Origin and Nature of the God-Brain Ilsensine' by Jurgen Hansa Greetings. Some of you may have read my small text on the origins of the illithid race. My most esteemed colleague Barash Vah, a scholar of insight and experience, raised a number of questions about my findings and, more importantly, my conclusions about the beginnings of these foul creatures. Of particular interest to me was the suggestion that Ilsensine may originally have come from the strange place called by many scholars ‘the Far Realm’. Indeed, it seems quite likely when one thinks about it, and wanderlust (and knowledgelust, if I may be so bold as to coin a phrase) bit me. Once again, I sallied forth, accompanied by those indespensible githzerai guides/guards, who had helped me on my previous excursion, to Ssrik Akuar and beyond. Many tedious and nerve-wracking days and nights followed; locating, clearing out, and exploring ancient illithid ruins in search of written records of their history and religion. The reports of the sites and the finds there are detailed in appendices A through J, one appendix per site, with illustrations of the sites, landscape and artifacts found. Appendix K details my brief studies on a strange life-form we encountered in Wild Space while traveling to Penumbra. While the expedition was originally to have been limited to Ssrik Akuar and a few minor, though ancient Prime worlds, an extraordinary stroke of luck ensured our making an unscheduled stay on the legendary Penumbra itself! Appendices H though J detail this portion of the journey, which, though fascinating, I have decided in interests of brevity to keep as short as possible. Nota bene! The lack of importance of writing in illithid society, the problems of translation the alien mind-set and the extreme age of the sources must be taken into account when considering the veracity of the following piece. It is undoubtedly rife with error. Still, I hope this may cast some light on the subject, and failing that, stimulate discussion and the hope of future expeditions to ancient illithids sites and get the younger generation interested in illithidology. Lastly, I must thank Bliss of the Believers of the Source, who has provided me with much help on interpreting the artifacts and writing found. .................. In brief, my research has lead me to this conclusion: Following the Rule of Three, there were three beings from what was described only as ‘someplace else’, that came to our Multiverse. Virtually nothing is known about this place, or even if it exists as we understand existence. Whether this is the Far Realm, or another plane unknown to us, or a known plane but unfamiliar to my sources, or whether it matters, I have no idea, though I believe it to be the aforementioned Far Realm. (Due to the extremely brief volume of knowledge on the so-called 'Far Realm', I have decided to consider it an aspect of existance outside our Multiverse). What is certain is that these beings were not native to the Prime (see Appendix C for this argument). They came from a somewhere that is a place of chaos and strange happenings. Beings such as we can scarcely perceive, much less comprehend, dwell there, changing their ‘world’ with the merest thought. During the unimaginable span of time the Multiverse as we know it has existed, some beings have come from this place upon occasion. (my arguments for why this 'place' is not Limbo are also presented in Appendix C). But we are concerned with three specific beings here. For lack of a better term, we shall call these beings gods, for they were of such power, or near enough. Two of them are known by name: Maanzecorian and Ilsensine, though whether these are their true names, or whether they even had names before being named by their worshippers, is unknown. The third I have not been able to find the name of. There is only one source I have found that mentions this god, some illithid-script found on the Sunset World. This source was decayed nearly beyond recognition and comprehension, but with the help of some powerful magic (a spellscroll which, along with it's mates, cost a good portion of the money used on this expedition, I might add), it was restored enough to read. I don’t know exactly how old it was, but it was in excess of 100, 000 years (possibly many times that number, considering the lengthy history of the illithids). It is not a long text, a couple dozen ‘pages’ of an archaic and difficult version of qualith with some highly abstract pictures, and is mainly concerned with glorifying Ilsensine (see Appendix D). Be that as it may, the three gods were each credited with helping create the illithid race. Ilsensine was the leader, and gave the spark of life and endowed them with their mind-powers. The Unnamed Being gave them their physical form and the Elder Brain. Strangely, there is no mention of what gifts Maanzecorian gave; he is merely mentioned as having helped create the mind flayers. Perhaps Maanzecorian's contribution was neglected in the text or perhaps It didn’t have anything to do with the creation of illithids and was mentioned just to avoid any divine wrath that might be forthcoming at this possible slight. Strangely, the script, as near as my guides and I could make out, made no mention of ceremorphosis, but seemed to imply that humanoid shape of the illithid is its natural one (supporting your refutation of the theory presented in my previous paper, dear Barash). No mention of thralls or any lesser life-forms was made in this script, which can be attributed to a number of things, including the unworthyness/unimportance of lesser beings in the illithid society, or, my personal belief, the lack of intelligent beings to keep as thralls. Ilsensine and Maanzecorian have been the uncontested lords of the illithids for as long as we know. But where is this third god now? As far as we can determine, there is only one god of the illithids, Ilsensine, now that Maanzecorian is dead. The script mentions that this unnamed god was slain somehow, probably by Ilsensine and Maanzecorian. Though the exact meaning of the script is impossible to understand for a mere human such as myself (and barely more so to my gith guides) it seems the god is dead. Ilsensine and Maanzecorian killed it for some reason. However, this passage gives me pause: (some concepts, possibly vital ones, are untranslatable, and are therefore necessarily left out. Others are varied semantics and shades of meaning peculiar to qualith/illithids): “Great Ilsensine and Maanzecorian killed *Unnamed* and cast *Unnamed* Beyond to lie until End of Time. *Unnamed* was not of life and is [not/true/thrall] dead.” Let me again emphasize the peculiar language of this passage, strange even for an illithid. I (with the help of one of my githzerai guides who is knowledgeable about such things) interpret this as meaning the Unnamed God was not so much killed as defeated and cast back to the Far Realm. Does this mean the Unnamed God will come forth again in the future? Perhaps this being was truly killed, and its ‘body’ floats in the Astral. Perhaps this being can be woken to life again, as rumors say that tanar’ri lord known as Orcus has. Perhaps It was merely driven back to the Far Realm, and is there plotting Its return. Perhaps It doesn’t care about the illithids it once was worshipped by or Its former colleagues. (Tentative plans are being made to track down the location of this god. They will probably be scrapped due top the lack of funding, and my sense of self-preservation overuling my normally dominant curiosity). The current state of things. With Maanzecorian dead, Ilsensine is now the sole deity worshipped by the illithids. Ilsensine, as Scholar Vah mentioned, resides in the Outlands, while its nature is by our standards most definitely evil. Now, most gods gravitate to the plane that best suits their alignment. But I believe this is more a matter of convenience than necessity. The reasons for this are as follows: I feel that Ilsensine is in the Outlands not only because of the reasons Scholar Vah listed, but also because Ilsensine is not really evil as such. A strange statement, to be sure, but allow me to elaborate. First of all, good and evil as we know it is seen from the point of view of beings native to our Multiverse. While some evil beings may not acknowledge that they are evil, or even that evil exists as good beings see it, they are still native to our Multiverse and bound by is laws and their loopholes (to bring the views of my Faction into the discussion). Ilsensine, not being native, is subject to fewer of the laws, mostly because of its wholly alien mind-set. It sees everything as its enemy and rightful thrall, and therefore is the antithesis of just about everything in existance, placing it squarely in the Outlands with respect to all other philosophies. One might then ask why aren’t all races and individuals that see themselves as the rightful rulers of everything placed in the Outlands? As I have mentioned before, I believe that it has something to do with being native to this Multiverse. Alas, I cannot prove anything of what I say about this matter, and I may be totally wrong. Lastly, to you, dear Barash Vah, for I am sure you will receive a copy of this document, I can but offer my humblest apologies for the shoddy piece of equipment I sold to you. Rest assured, this is the last time I shall purchase anything at “Ber’nee’s Discount Planar Equipment Emporium”. (On reflection, the name should have tipped me off). I shall send by special messenger a replacement which I purchased at “Joh-Bawb’s Excellent Elemental and Ethereal Instruments”. I feel sure that this new compass will perform admirably Yours, in the pursuit of Knowledge Jurgen Hansa, Fraternity of Order
Kuje31 10-26-03, 02:31 PM	9569, The Illithiad 9570, A Darkness Gathering 9571, Masters of Eternal Night 9572, Dawn of the Overmind Might be of some help, the first was a 2e sourcebook on Mind Flayers, and the other three are modules that tie into the sourcebook. But as I said they are all 2e, but they should still be of some use.