Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Meldread 09-28-07, 03:21 PM	There are at least four Mystra threads posted on these forums and in all of them people keep saying there won't be a Weave in 4E. I understand the argument being made, but nowhere has it been stated that this is the case and what is more the argument is flawed. The Weave does not effect how magic works in the Forgotten Realm's. It is a fluff concept and therefore its existence (in a metagame sense) is irrelevant. However, since the Weave is so closely tied to the lore of the setting I find it strange that it would not exist in some form. Having said all that, here is my prediction. When Mystra is destroyed the Weave goes poof. Shar becomes the new Goddess of Magic and the Shadow Weave becomes the default Weave of the Forgotten Realm's. The Shadow Weave has been known to drive some people insane. Therefore it makes sense as one of the main causes behind the bad things that happen during the Spellplague. Finally, we know WotC is going for a points of light approach with 4E and you cannot ask for a more appropriate way to darken the setting than making Shar the new goddess of magic, the (Shadow) Weave and Spells. That is my prediction and what I think will happen.
Lord Karsus 09-28-07, 03:44 PM	-Who knows? We shall see...
Alediran 09-28-07, 03:52 PM	I hope they don't. One of the reasons I love the realms it's that they don't treat arcane casters as the begining and end of every single evil that has befallen over the setting (like in Warcraft), or they are not persecuted in all the lands that compose it (like in Dragonlance). If they make the SW the default way to cast magic then they just killed one of the greatest part of the realms.
johnkretzer 09-28-07, 04:17 PM	There are at least four Mystra threads posted on these forums and in all of them people keep saying there won't be a Weave in 4E. I understand the argument being made, but nowhere has it been stated that this is the case and what is more the argument is flawed. The Weave does not effect how magic works in the Forgotten Realm's. It is a fluff concept and therefore its existence (in a metagame sense) is irrelevant. However, since the Weave is so closely tied to the lore of the setting I find it strange that it would not exist in some form. Having said all that, here is my prediction. When Mystra is destroyed the Weave goes poof. Shar becomes the new Goddess of Magic and the Shadow Weave becomes the default Weave of the Forgotten Realm's. The Shadow Weave has been known to drive some people insane. Therefore it makes sense as one of the main causes behind the bad things that happen during the Spellplague. Finally, we know WotC is going for a points of light approach with 4E and you cannot ask for a more appropriate way to darken the setting than making Shar the new goddess of magic, the (Shadow) Weave and Spells. That is my prediction and what I think will happen. Actualy we do know for a fact that the Weave is gone. The last year in the GHotR says it. Also sure it is 'fluff' but so is say the culture of Waterdeep. Without it these thing stop being what they once were. Logic and common sense would indicated that the Shadow Weave should go the same way that the Weave just went...unfortunaly you may be right though as Mr. Baker doesn't allow anything like logic, common sense or consistency to get in the way of his creations. So Shar and the Shadow Weave will become the new souce of magic... :rolleyes: So instead of having a interesting goddess that was struggling with her ideals and her divine duties who only once cut magic from a souce(Cyric...which she got in trouble for...which is just a double standard it isn't even funny considering all the crap he gets away with) now we have a Evil Goddess of magic, Shar who single purpose is to destroy everything. True this speculation. Also sure 4th edition is about the whole PoL simplistic way of running D&D. But considering that Mr. Baker had promised not to mess up the Realms or Eberron to inflicted PoL on the campaign settings. Now it seems to be a lie. Usualy I don't mind them keeping something under wrap such as the 'we working on 4th edition'...but I can't see the reason for the lie unless they didn't want people to reacted badly to it before it was too late.
Alediran 09-28-07, 04:22 PM	Since is not TOO late yet let's start making noise in a way they can't stop hearing it.
johnkretzer 09-28-07, 04:30 PM	Since is not TOO late yet let's start making noise in a way they can't stop hearing it. Except they already said the changes are going to happen no matter what. A bit close minded but sadly I think that is the problem is that the current staff of the WotC is very much closed mined. So what kind of noise to you think they can't ignore?
Meldread 09-28-07, 04:31 PM	Well, as things currently stand every major event that completely f0x0rs over the world is either the fault of the gods or powerful arcane magic users. So... umm... too late? :P Really, I think when we look at what we currently know it makes perfect sense. There is no reason they would get rid of the concept of Weaves altogether, and we know the Spellplague is something that happened over a period of time. It didn't just happen and go away, so in order for it to be really bad magic users would actually need to use magic. No Weave, no Magic, no real problems (aside from the world slowly dying). It also wouldn't make sense for magic users to go insane if the Weave disappears. It's happened twice before and although it may have driven some insane, it certainly wasn't widespread. However, we do know that the Shadow Weave can drive people insane and suddenly forcing everyone to embrace the Shadow Weave WOULD have that effect on many if not most magic users. Additionally, they can retcon things to say that the Shadow Weave had always used the 4E Magic System. Shar would be under the same rules as Mystra was under in that she couldn't block anyone from accessing the Shadow Weave without a good reason. (Of course, Shar really wouldn't do that anyway. If you were a serious enough threat she'd just have you killed.) Of course, this doesn't mean Shar would be the Goddess of Magic in 4E especially if there is a big jump in the timeline. However, I think it is almost a certain possibility that Shar will be the next Goddess of Magic at least immediately following Mystra's death. I also think (hope?) Selune might get a piece of the magic pie. It would be interesting to see magic divided down the middle between them both. Evil Magic goes to Shar, Good Magic to Selune and Neutral Magic to Oghma - like in the Mulhorandi Pantheon.
Meldread 09-28-07, 04:42 PM	Logic and common sense would indicated that the Shadow Weave should go the same way that the Weave just went. Actually, no according to Magic of Faerun the Shadow Weave and the Weave are separate constructs. They are not the same and if they have any connection it is only tenuous at best... I think of it this way. If the Shadow Weave is the "nothingness" (or "spaces between" - they are the same thing) between the Weave then it only grows stronger if the Weave itself does not exist. However, we know nothing about the Shadow Weave aside from the fact that it is in Shar's control. We do not know if she created it or found it. There is lots of speculation on this point, but over all there is no real reason that the Shadow Weave should stop functioning because the Weave disappears. While Shar does not need the Weave to use some of her powers, she is weakened herself if the Shadow Weave goes poof along with the Weave. Really, Shar isn't that stupid and would know the consequences of her actions. And there is no reason that Shar can't become the new default Goddess of Magic and the Weave. It would actually be somewhat ironic. Shar's portfolio of secrets would work against her in this regard - she would grow in power by vast amounts by spreading magic and making it prevalent, and yet because she is also the goddess of secrets she instead would encourage people to horde their magical knowledge for themselves.
johnkretzer 09-28-07, 04:44 PM	Well, as things currently stand every major event that completely f0x0rs over the world is either the fault of the gods or powerful arcane magic users. So... umm... too late? :P Really, I think when we look at what we currently know it makes perfect sense. There is no reason they would get rid of the concept of Weaves altogether, and we know the Spellplague is something that happened over a period of time. It didn't just happen and go away, so in order for it to be really bad magic users would actually need to use magic. No Weave, no Magic, no real problems (aside from the world slowly dying). It also wouldn't make sense for magic users to go insane if the Weave disappears. It's happened twice before and although it may have driven some insane, it certainly wasn't widespread. However, we do know that the Shadow Weave can drive people insane and suddenly forcing everyone to embrace the Shadow Weave WOULD have that effect on many if not most magic users. Additionally, they can retcon things to say that the Shadow Weave had always used the 4E Magic System. Shar would be under the same rules as Mystra was under in that she couldn't block anyone from accessing the Shadow Weave without a good reason. (Of course, Shar really wouldn't do that anyway. If you were a serious enough threat she'd just have you killed.) Of course, this doesn't mean Shar would be the Goddess of Magic in 4E especially if there is a big jump in the timeline. However, I think it is almost a certain possibility that Shar will be the next Goddess of Magic at least immediately following Mystra's death. I also think (hope?) Selune might get a piece of the magic pie. It would be interesting to see magic divided down the middle between them both. Evil Magic goes to Shar, Good Magic to Selune and Neutral Magic to Oghma - like in the Mulhorandi Pantheon. Sure it makes sense that being forced to draw upon a nihilistic souce of magic would drive one insane and such...I not arguing that. I just don't like it. Also lets look ar existing lore. The Weave was NOT made by any of the Mystras. It was created by Selune and Selune made the rules. Because overall as you mentioned the Weave supports life on the FR which is why she created it in the first place. To combat Shar. Now Shar created the Shadow Weave to have the opposite effect. And since Shar created the SW she makes the rules governing it. So no she won't have the same rules as Mystra did.
Meldread 09-28-07, 04:54 PM	Also lets look ar existing lore. The Weave was NOT made by any of the Mystras. It was created by Selune and Selune made the rules. Because overall as you mentioned the Weave supports life on the FR which is why she created it in the first place. To combat Shar. Errr... No. That is not how it worked or happened. According to the lore at the height of the battle between Shar and Selune, Shar was winning and in a desperate act Selune tore off a part of herself and flung it at Shar. It hit Shar and in turn pulled off a part of her. The two parts then melded together as one and formed Mystryl (the first Goddess of Magic) and along with it the Weave. It was an accident. However it is likely that Mystryl contained "more" of Selune's essence than of Shar's. Mystryl then sided with Selune and because of her treachery the cold war between the twin sisters began.
GothicDan 09-28-07, 05:25 PM	The Shadow Weave is dependent on the Weave. Look at how it's described in Magic of Faerun. And Ed's comments came after this.
Lord Karsus 09-28-07, 05:57 PM	The Shadow Weave is dependent on the Weave. Look at how it's described in Magic of Faerun. And Ed's comments came after this. -Not exactly. MoF clearly states, "If Mystra were to die and the Weave collapse, the Shadow Weave would persist." -If it can persist on it's own, it fairly independent of the Weave, at least from that point on.
GothicDan 09-28-07, 06:05 PM	The entire thing is full of half-truths and evasive lies. Just like politics.
MarkusTay63 09-28-07, 06:22 PM	Actually, there is newer lore in one of the two mega adventures thus far released which states that the two are in fact conjoined, just as Ed said. Since newer lore 'trumps' older, the entry in MoF is null and void. Sorry LK, point goes to GD. BTW, I only know this because it was discussed at CK, so please don't ask me any page numbers or anything. :P
Thinblade 09-28-07, 06:26 PM	But after MoF came Ed, saying that the Shadow Weave can't exist without the real Weave, and after Ed came Shadowdale: Tearing of the Weave, which explicitly states that destroying the Weave would destroy the Shadow Weave as well. Thus MoF is updated, Ed is vindicated, and the question answered: the Shadow Weave dies with the Weave. At least, that's what SHOULD happen to it. We'll just have to see what ACTUALLY happens (and the mind-numbingly stupid reason given for why). Edit: Ha! Great minds think alike.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-28-07, 06:48 PM	When Mystra is destroyed the Weave goes poof. Shar becomes the new Goddess of Magic and the Shadow Weave becomes the default Weave of the Forgotten Realm's. Nope. It's been explained several times that if the Weave goes poof, the Shadow Weave goes poof as well, because the Shadow Weave is merely a part of the Weave.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-28-07, 06:53 PM	At least, that's what SHOULD happen to it. We'll just have to see what ACTUALLY happens (and the mind-numbingly stupid reason given for why). Exactly, it should be obvious by now that lore can just be changed on a whim,.
Meldread 09-28-07, 07:29 PM	The Shadow Weave has to persist after the Weave is destroyed and here is why. - If the Shadow Weave goes poof the Shades get screwed over. As far as we know WotC is peddling out "Netheril 2.0" in 4E as per the Orc King. How do they rise to power again if they literally suffer the same fate as Netheril 1.0? - Ed himself stated that the Spellplague is not a momentary event. It is something that happens over time. We know that this is going to wipe out a lot of characters who are arcane casters. I can't remember if this is official or not, but I believe it will also drive those who don't die insane. - Now why would the Weave collapsing drive people insane? The Weave has gone poof TWICE in the history of Toril and both times nothing like this has happened. In fact Mystra 2.0 and Mystra 3.0 worked very hard to ensure that the Weave just didn't go 'poof'. That is why Mystra has so many Chosen. - We do know, however that the Shadow Weave CAN cause insanity. Even not taking the above things into account, why would Shar act in such a way as to screw herself over? I suppose it could be argued that because of all Mystra's Chosen they have the ability to hold the Weave together thus inadvertently ensuring the success and stability of the Shadow Weave as a result. That could give Shar enough time to "fix" the problem if it isn't retconned out of existence. We know Elminster survives so the Weave might not actually go poof completely.
GothicDan 09-28-07, 07:31 PM	Meldread, nothing you said infers that the Shadow Weave has to continue to exist.
Meldread 09-28-07, 07:31 PM	Of course, it should also be pointed out that since Shar had a hand in slaying Mystra her portfolios and thus the Weave would default to her control upon Mystra's death. Meaning that the Weave itself never actually goes 'poof' just Mystra.
GothicDan 09-28-07, 07:58 PM	Well, we know for a fact that the Weave goes poof. GHotR says as much.
Meldread 09-28-07, 08:23 PM	A pity I haven't picked up a copy yet. Sigh. If the Weave goes poof and ASSUMING the Shadow Weave goes poof (and really it makes sense to retcon that back to the way it originally was) then why do arcane magic users go insane or die? We've experienced this same event twice unless they are retconning it so it happened in the past, I don't see why it would happen this time unless something was different. In any event, regardless if it goes poof or not, it makes sense for Shar to become the new Goddess of Magic, the Weave and Spells. It should be pretty obvious by this point that the new FRCS is going to take place long after the last entry in GHotR.
johnkretzer 09-28-07, 08:26 PM	Even not taking the above things into account, why would Shar act in such a way as to screw herself over? I suppose it could be argued that because of all Mystra's Chosen they have the ability to hold the Weave together thus inadvertently ensuring the success and stability of the Shadow Weave as a result. That could give Shar enough time to "fix" the problem if it isn't retconned out of existence. We know Elminster survives so the Weave might not actually go poof completely. Just a slight point Shar's ultiminate goal is the anhilation of everything(including her self). As you have pointed out life on the FR is strongly based on the Weave. It's destruction would gain Shar her greatest victory, sure I could defintly see her sacrifice the Shadow Weave to gain this. So she lost it..she is the goddess of lost. As to your other points you are right it is very inconsistent, but what do you expect from the Fr design team?
johnkretzer 09-28-07, 08:30 PM	Errr... No. That is not how it worked or happened. According to the lore at the height of the battle between Shar and Selune, Shar was winning and in a desperate act Selune tore off a part of herself and flung it at Shar. It hit Shar and in turn pulled off a part of her. The two parts then melded together as one and formed Mystryl (the first Goddess of Magic) and along with it the Weave. It was an accident. However it is likely that Mystryl contained "more" of Selune's essence than of Shar's. Mystryl then sided with Selune and because of her treachery the cold war between the twin sisters began. Just curious where did you get this bit of lore? You also left out that this didn't start the war between the two. That has been going on since the start of time. Selune wants to build, Shar wants to destroy. All the gods where created because of this conflict.
GothicDan 09-28-07, 08:30 PM	In any event, regardless if it goes poof or not, it makes sense for Shar to become the new Goddess of Magic, the Weave and Spells. While Shar is one of my top five favorite deities, I highly disagree.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-28-07, 09:01 PM	In any event, regardless if it goes poof or not, it makes sense for Shar to become the new Goddess of Magic, the Weave and Spells. No it doesn't.
GothicDan 09-28-07, 09:27 PM	That is - it WOULD make a little sense, but not for the reasons that Meldread gave: nothing to do with the Shadow Weave or her slaying Mystra. Rather, she is one of the handful of deities who have experience already manipulating Raw Magic, from before Mystra was formed. That would also include Chauntea and Selune, too. Chauntea isn't really involved enough in arcane things to have much to do with it, but I wouldn't mind Shar and Selune sharing the responsibilities. Of course, I'd still like Lurue and/or Azuth to be at least somewhat involved. (But I'd prefer the LN Mystra over all of the above.)
MarkusTay63 09-28-07, 09:46 PM	I still think they'll all merge to form Sharlūnstra. :P
GothicDan 09-28-07, 10:14 PM	Mysharlune?
Dark Wizard 09-28-07, 10:25 PM	Mystr4.
Meldread 09-28-07, 10:38 PM	Just curious where did you get this bit of lore? You also left out that this didn't start the war between the two. That has been going on since the start of time. Selune wants to build, Shar wants to destroy. All the gods where created because of this conflict. Page 260 in the FRCS. Also, the war was not waged since the beginning of time. In the very beginning, before Chauntea begged for light and warmth, Selune and Shar got along and it could even be surmised that they loved each other as sisters. However, when Selune wanted to bring in light (the antithesis of night and darkness) Shar took it as a betrayal and thus began the war. While Shar is one of my top five favorite deities, I highly disagree. Why do you disagree? Out of all the deities if there will be a new Weave Shar seems the most likely pick and after her Selune. Shar has had experience "managing" the Shadow Weave for all this time, proving that she could potentially handle the job. On top of that Shar played a direct role in the death of Mystra, and typically speaking when one deity slays another the portfolios almost always go to that deity. You could argue that it could / should go to Cyric instead but that does not seem overly plausible.
Meldread 09-28-07, 10:41 PM	I wouldn't mind Shar and Selune sharing the responsibilities. That is what I am hoping for in the end. I think Shar will be the goddess of magic for awhile, but then Selune will somehow find a way to steal at least half of it away, effectively dividing the Weave up into "light" and "dark" (or good and evil). Magic has been divided up similarly by other deities in different pantheons, Mulhorandi being the prime example.
GothicDan 09-28-07, 11:05 PM	Why do you disagree? Out of all the deities if there will be a new Weave Shar seems the most likely pick and after her Selune. Shar has had experience "managing" the Shadow Weave for all this time, proving that she could potentially handle the job. Because it was by her hand that magic all over Toril failed in the first place. She's already shown that she's more interested in loss/destruction than the spread of magic, and AO only appoints those who best exemplify their portfolios. On top of that Shar played a direct role in the death of Mystra, and typically speaking when one deity slays another the portfolios almost always go to that deity. You could argue that it could / should go to Cyric instead but that does not seem overly plausible. The number of times that deities' portfolios have been directly inherited by their slayers, without any outside influence, can be counted on one hand.
johnkretzer 09-28-07, 11:05 PM	Page 260 in the FRCS. Also, the war was not waged since the beginning of time. In the very beginning, before Chauntea begged for light and warmth, Selune and Shar got along and it could even be surmised that they loved each other as sisters. However, when Selune wanted to bring in light (the antithesis of night and darkness) Shar took it as a betrayal and thus began the war. I think they have changed it slightly so that the SW wasn't like hitting a square peg into a round hole. But reading it my statement still stands. Selune had more influence on the Weave and Mystyl (it even say so). The point is the orginal Mystyl set down the rules...which Shar never followed with the Shadow Weave so why would she if she got control of the Weave? Why do you disagree? Out of all the deities if there will be a new Weave Shar seems the most likely pick and after her Selune. Shar has had experience "managing" the Shadow Weave for all this time, proving that she could potentially handle the job. On top of that Shar played a direct role in the death of Mystra, and typically speaking when one deity slays another the portfolios almost always go to that deity. You could argue that it could / should go to Cyric instead but that does not seem overly plausible. Um...becoming a the goddess shouldn't be like getting a job for one thing. Also her goal of wanting to smash the Weave would indicate me thast she is the last god to get the 'job'. Giving her the 'job' would upset the balance that the Weave makes. Selune respected the balance, Shar doesn't. Also I hope we moving away from gods being like immortals from highlanders. And lastly the SW doesn't drive people insane it corrupts them...but without the weave wizards are channeling the magic raw which propably would consume some and drive others crazy.
buzzard 09-28-07, 11:38 PM	I don't think that the destruction of the Shadow Weave is such a big loss for Shar, if it happened it's because it served it's purpose for her. That's how she works. Probably Cyric used it against Mystra, Shar only needed a powerful deity with the ability to use magic against Mystra (thus giving Cyric access to the SW to avoid Lady Magic's deny weave SDA) combined with a surprise attack of some sort. Shar wins, she gets rid of her most powerful enemy (plus her allies) and gets Cyric out of the way too, the SW served it's purpose and now she can concentrate again on choking Selūne, Chauntea and Lathander. It's not like Shar wants more things to exist :D.
The WarOverlord 09-29-07, 02:30 AM	That is - it WOULD make a little sense, but not for the reasons that Meldread gave: nothing to do with the Shadow Weave or her slaying Mystra. Rather, she is one of the handful of deities who have experience already manipulating Raw Magic, from before Mystra was formed. That would also include Chauntea and Selune, too. Chauntea isn't really involved enough in arcane things to have much to do with it, but I wouldn't mind Shar and Selune sharing the responsibilities. Of course, I'd still like Lurue and/or Azuth to be at least somewhat involved. (But I'd prefer the LN Mystra over all of the above.) I wonder how much a Netril magical relic would be worth in a Magical-less world. Or even a classical Wand of Magic Missles made before the collapse of the weave. In both cases of the Collapse of the Weave magic Items and Scrolls keep there power as it is already invested in them. Even simple pins with a rervse gravity spell could become valuable as they can be placed at one end of a hallow tube in a clockwork assembly and when the trigger is puled the pin touches the Bullet in the Tube and we have a Pseudo magical "Gun" that replaces battle mages.
MarkusTay63 09-29-07, 02:30 AM	Mysharlune?Ma..ma..ma MY Sharona!"
Lord Karsus 09-29-07, 07:48 PM	-What was the point of retconning the Shadow Weave into the Realms if, in the grand scheme, it is simply going to be written out? Bah, I didn't like it when they just added it randomly, and not they they might randomly remove it, I don't like it either. I just can't win here...
GothicDan 09-29-07, 08:06 PM	True story.
johnkretzer 09-29-07, 08:07 PM	-What was the point of retconning the Shadow Weave into the Realms if, in the grand scheme, it is simply going to be written out? Bah, I didn't like it when they just added it randomly, and not they they might randomly remove it, I don't like it either. I just can't win here... The point is that it shows very bad planning. Which is why all the changes they have done aren't very good ones.
Xaean 09-29-07, 09:11 PM	I hope they don't. One of the reasons I love the realms it's that they don't treat arcane casters as the begining and end of every single evil that has befallen over the setting (like in Warcraft), or they are not persecuted in all the lands that compose it (like in Dragonlance). If they make the SW the default way to cast magic then they just killed one of the greatest part of the realms. I couldn't agree more - making all magic some sinister creation of an evil goddess would turn the realms into a rather stereotypical and in fact boring standard setting. While Shar may well be to most powerful force of evil on Faerun - and she is one of the evil deities I like best BTW, she shouldn't be the goddess of all magic.
Reneshat 09-30-07, 07:10 AM	According to GHotR, the weave is not destroyed, but rather "bursts it's bonds" and "runs wild." This is what leads to people going insane (seeing how you have to use the Weave for it to effect you) and could simply reach some resemblance of order later under different rules (thus paving the way for 4ed.) When it refers to the "Weave's destruction," I'm relatively certain it is referring to the destruction the Weave causes, seeing how it mentions it running wild before that.
Lykor 09-30-07, 09:34 AM	Hmm, maybe Selune will get control over the Weave, then, in a fit of anger, throw it at Shar. The resulting Weave would encompass all magic on Faerun, at least until some other random diety wants a weave. This blast could even create a new goddess of magic....... hmmm......
MarkusTay63 09-30-07, 11:19 AM	The point is that it shows very bad planning. Which is why all the changes they have done aren't very good ones.It appears to me that most of what they are planning is to un-do all of their mistakes of the past. They must of realized the setting was perfect before WotC and TSR messed with it, and now they are trying to bring it back to that scarey, more primitive time. They are taking out the ill-conceived Shadoweave, putting back all of the empty space they took out in 3e, and are probably going to re-visit the ToT (it has been said that the current problems have their basis in the ToT). It sounds like we will be left with a planet closer to the one in the 1e box, but to do something so disasterous because of their lack of forsight leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.
johnkretzer 09-30-07, 11:39 PM	It appears to me that most of what they are planning is to un-do all of their mistakes of the past. They must of realized the setting was perfect before WotC and TSR messed with it, and now they are trying to bring it back to that scarey, more primitive time. They are taking out the ill-conceived Shadoweave, putting back all of the empty space they took out in 3e, and are probably going to re-visit the ToT (it has been said that the current problems have their basis in the ToT). It sounds like we will be left with a planet closer to the one in the 1e box, but to do something so disasterous because of their lack of forsight leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. Actualy not really...in the 1st edition box set the gods didn't act like complete morons...also orc were evil....and the Netherese were in the past...oh and Myth Drannor was sitting these as a challenge to adventures...the Seven Chosen( and others) were they to provide new adventurers with guidence, jobs, mentoring, and well to keep the evil high level bad guys from taking over the world till the PCs were ready. Also back then there was alot more room to be inventive...now it is just one large wasteland with unrealistic "points of Lights".
MarkusTay63 10-01-07, 02:22 AM	Thats why they are killing the gods - they turned them into idiots. I'm not saying its going to BE the 1e Realms, but it appears they are trying to reset the setting to a wilder, more primitive time. Give us that same feeling we had when we first looked throught the grey box and learned about the Realms for the first time. However, I'm sure they will fall way short of the mark. Destroying the old to give us that 'new' feeling again is counter-productive.
johnkretzer 10-01-07, 02:31 AM	Thats why they are killing the gods - they turned them into idiots. I'm not saying its going to BE the 1e Realms, but it appears they are trying to reset the setting to a wilder, more primitive time. Give us that same feeling we had when we first looked throught the grey box and learned about the Realms for the first time. However, I'm sure they will fall way short of the mark. Destroying the old to give us that 'new' feeling again is counter-productive. I guess so though you know I never felt the Realms were all that wilder and primitive, Sure it had those areas and they were great but without the balance of the more civilized and advance areas it would have been dull.
MarkusTay63 10-01-07, 02:45 PM	Exactly. Thats the whole problem with 4e Realms - The setting has always been 'Points of Light', and now they are trying to turn it into what it already is, which makes no sense. There were geat big swaths of 'savage' territory, with various city-states and small kingdoms sprinkled throughout. They took out much of the 'empty' regions with the 3e maps, and now they want to 'nuke' everything just to bring back those 'empty' areas. So what happens when they fill everything up with another ten years of lore? Do we get another 'armegeddon scenario' with 5e?