Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Soul_Reaper 06-14-06, 05:58 AM	Greetings Forgotten Realms Enthusiasts; Having played FR sometime ago, I now return with an interesting idea [to me anyway] and just need some more knowledgeable FR players to assist me with the ideas. Basically, I want to make a Modern Forgotten Realms campaign with some friends over on the d20 Modern Gaming Boards of this site. ============================== General Idea: Humans have populated the land with cities and such [Waterdeep is a MAJOR trade hub and has grown to a size larger than the largest US cities, almost a series of mini-cities], as well as developing new technologies. Dwarves have become the major mineral and petroleum exporters of the modern Realms, while gnomes have been forever making new and better technologies (these guys are the most likely ones to be scientists and engineers). Meanwhile, Elves have taken to a techno-phobic lifestyle, living much like the Amish in the US, preferring to use generations old methods to build housing and farm. Halfling and Half-Orcs have integrated in human society almost seamlessly, half-orcs taking to tougher jobs such as factory work and security jobs. Drow have slowly driven upwards from their underground caverns into major cities, taking the place of mafia (for older drow) and gangsters (younger, more hot-headed drow), mainly working at night due to their light sensitivity. Magic and Technology: Magic and Tech oppose each other, each causing the other to be less effective when they are nearby. It has been founded that magic auras take a similar form to radiation, and are likewise blocked by large lead sheets. Mages are therefore shunned due tot heir effect on tech [has the effect of a low continuous EMF], and when they need to get transport there is usually a section of the transport designed for mages specifically, (e.g. a lead plated carriage on the back of a train.) ============================== Developed Ideas: Through thousands of years of use, what once was a strong fabric of magic draped over Toril has become...threadbare. The Weave is just that, a multitude of strings that casters manipulate and knit together to form their own spells, but the name isnt symbolic like most thought. Casting pulls more threads from the strong sheet and it becomes ever thinner. Then gaps appear where certain strings are taken wholly out. Similarly, the Shadow Weave has also lost it's stability due to the fact that its framework is the Weave itself, thus the more strings lost from the Weave, the more threadbare, in turn, the Shadow Weave becomes. Disturbed at this unforseen side-effect of magic use, Mystra increased the ban of higher level magics to cover some of the lower level spells so that she could use her abilities to restore the Weave. The gods of artifice, having also lost power amoung there followers, were also hurt by the drop in high-magics, but to lessen the burden of lost magic, they promotted the creation of more technologies, which in turn advance technology all over Faerun. As timed passed, the weave was restored to it fullest and high magic once again accessable, and so, technology developement soon faded into the background once more. But as time slowly passed, the wave once again started to fall away, and the ban reimposed. An thus the cycled continued, till today, where technology has reached the equivalent of the Industrial Era of the planet Earth, while magic is back at full strength, Mystra having just released the most recent ban on high-magic, which started some 100 years ago... ============================== Current Question: What would the seperate races be like from this change? For example, instead of mining iron, would dwarves now mine coal for the new machinery that has developed? Disclaimer... I understand that many people may disagree with this, and say it changes the feel of FR, but I intend on trying to maintain the magical aspect of the Realms, while adding technological advancements.
Karsus the Mad 06-14-06, 07:46 AM	There's a Modern FR thread over on the D20 Modern boards. The way they seem to be doing it is that magic, over the centuries, is waning (to explain the 5th level spell cap in modern), and that the deities are less effective/present due to the ever more individualistic ideals of modern society replacing the age old worship of the pantheon. The way you describe what you want makes it sound like Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura, where magic and tech are two sides of the same coin, and have always waxed and waned in opposistion to eachother, especially the part about the train...it's exactly that in the game ;) It might be useful for you. Basically, I’m interested on possible ways that this could occur given the state of the Realms. Yet again, a magical catastrophe, resulting in the death of the goddess of magic (yet again). People, mundanes and mages alike, have finally had enough of unreliable spellcasting. Some turn to Shar and her weave, while others turn to psionics. Most however turn to simple machines they've always known about but have dismissed. Utilizing their great intellect and creativity (boosted by the Gondar), they begin dramatically increasing the variety and functionality of technology.
BadCatMan 06-14-06, 10:14 AM	Arcanum had the interesting idea where magic works against nature, but technology works with it. Thus Druids might actually support technology against magic. This is an awesome idea.
Soul_Reaper 06-15-06, 12:58 AM	Sounds interesting... Now all we have to do is describe this "catastrophe" that caused the sudden drop in magic, which could very well be the death of the Goddess of Magic... again... MInd you, one of my players wanted to have the Goddess around, maybe she has reincarnated... again... and is as she was before, just weaker from her death. Any thoughts?? Also, anyone interested making this into a proper brainstorming thread and what-not, including such things as future FR companies, eg. Gnome Industries :D
BrianCritchley 06-15-06, 01:03 AM	perhaps she's just been weakening as gond has been strengthening.
Soul_Reaper 06-15-06, 01:17 AM	Well, I was thinking because FR is a magically inherit place (ie. lots of magic around), the number of mages would at first outnumber engineers, technicians etc by a large number. The Death of the goddess of magic would have many mages without power (until she returned), and many would-be mages may instead lean towards technology instead of becoming mage apprentices. This would in turn lead to more followers of Gond and thus and increase in his power. Thats one take on the situtation that caused tech growth to suddenly increase. EDIT: This might even lead to the creation of an evil technology god, maybe wanting to use technology to cause mayhem and destruction - i.e. war. Then you can have a relegious wars between tech and magic.
GothicDan 06-15-06, 01:50 AM	The death of the Goddess of Magic would cause all major civilizations to pretty much collapse, and in time, unless a new God of Magic powerful enough to maintain the Weave stepped in, may well destroy much of the world. This is the canon answer, from Ed Greenwood. Take it as you will. I'm just giving the info. :) Perhaps this would result in Shar getting a chance to expand her Shadow Weave... Which might be a kind of cool alternate setting, where Magic is ruled by Evil, and thus giving a reason for why technology had to be developed (and perhaps why AO may have lifted the ban off of it, in order to make "good" technology to counter Shar's evil magic). If NO magic deity stepped in.. Abeir-Toril and Realmspace might well eventually unravel in a great apocalypse. Magic is "built" into it, so to speak. It's the spark of - not life itself - but creation and potential. Though I'd still allow some of the more advanced magical races with powerful pantheon leaders who hold the portfolio of magic (notably the Elves) be some of the last surviving "good" wielders of magic. But to have magic weaken overall would weaken all of the reality of Abeir-Toril. As I said.. Just how canon stands. Not sure if you knew the above. I'm assuming you care, at least, because what FR fan wouldn't care about FR? ;) You picked the setting the least likely to become what you want it to be with any sense of logic... A better bet probably would have been an alternate Prime world altogether, unless you just don't care about all of the above lore. :)
BadCatMan 06-15-06, 02:02 AM	Maybe there's only so much magical energy to go around? When Auppenser wakes up, Psionics takes off again. And maybe Shadow magic gains in popularity (maybe Shar loses the portfolio?). Then new magical systems arise, like Incarnum, Truenaming and Binding (all optional, given that they're not in d20). Then there's Gnomish artificers and their very-nearly magical devices. Then with so many different spellcasters syphoning magical energy off in different directions, no one magical system gains ascendency, and all become limited. Then maybe spellcasters of different flavours ally together and battle it out to cause their chosen magic to gain power once more. Halruuans ally with Thayans to stamp out the new Mind Mages, for example. This could lead to some magical apocalypse, perhaps, or be the current state of the Realms in your game. How far ahead do you plan to set this? What year? The year names might provide some clues to adventure ideas (as they were intended, I guess). The highest level of tech and culture in the Realms is about the Renaissance, I think, so I guess 400 years into the future might be about right. I'm starting a Psionics only game set in a late 1800s style world. In it the Dwarves/Duergar are a highly industrious empire, fascist and powerful. I think in a modern Realms, the Duergar would also have great factory cities, and probably have a fascist / communist / totalitarian dictatorship, if they keep going as they are. You'd have to stay carefully non-Eberron in this endeavour, just to keep it unique.
Old Sage 06-15-06, 02:05 AM	The death of the Goddess of Magic would cause all major civilizations to pretty much collapse, and in time, unless a new God of Magic powerful enough to maintain the Weave stepped in, may well destroy much of the world. This is the canon answer, from Ed Greenwood.Indeed. Ed's said as much in both his '04 and '05 replies -- repeatedly. Perhaps this would result in Shar getting a chance to expand her Shadow Weave... Which might be a kind of cool alternate setting, where Magic is ruled by Evil, and thus giving a reason for why technology had to be developed (and perhaps why AO may have lifted the ban off of it, in order to make "good" technology to counter Shar's evil magic). If NO magic deity stepped in.. Abeir-Toril and Realmspace might well eventually unravel in a great apocalypse. Magic is "built" into it, so to speak. It's the spark of - not life itself - but creation and potential.Consider this tidbit from Ed regarding the destruction of Mystra - "However, until a new deity rose to control whatever new system of magic replaced the Weave (remember, Mystra IS the Weave; for her to be destroyed “beyond re-creation,” Azuth and all of Mystra’s Chosen, in whom parts of her power reside, would have to be destroyed, too), magic would be wild or simply wouldn’t work. Probably magic items would do SOMETHING when their stored powers were unleashed, but not function as their wielders expected them to (and not under any precise control or exhibiting any consistency of effects)."
Soul_Reaper 06-15-06, 02:36 AM	So... other then the world collpasing as we know it, what other paths can we take? :D EDIT: I intent this not to go all eberron-like as we have magic conflicting with technology, as opposed to what occurs in eberron.
BadCatMan 06-15-06, 07:48 AM	Maybe the other gods get sick and tired of mages and clerics becoming the most powerful beings in the Realms, and petition Ao to get magic curtailed to give non-spellcasters a chance. And thus Ao turns D&D rules into d20.
GothicDan 06-15-06, 10:19 AM	Maybe the other gods get sick and tired of mages and clerics becoming the most powerful beings in the Realms, and petition Ao to get magic curtailed to give non-spellcasters a chance. And thus Ao turns D&D rules into d20. ... The Gods get sick of their most powerful worshippers being the most powerful people in the Realms? Yeah, I see Lolth deciding to depose all of her Priestesses real soon. And AO wouldn't give a hoot. The Realms is Modern.. For the Realms. The earth's history line is vastly different than Faerun's. To turn FR into the vision above, you have to go back thousands and thousands of years, changing events, and retroactively change the nature of magic and the gods themselves - right now, they attend favorably to their lay worshippers since the ToT, so people aren't about to turn against them as a whole any time soon. If clergy could work real, reliable miracles as they can in FR (let alone Wizards), do you really think we would have reached a true industrial age at all? So.. I'm saying, it is impossible with how things stand NOW... But not if you change history and the nature of the FR setting itself. I hope this doesn't offend - you DID want to know the ways it could occur, given the state of the Realms as-is. And I'm saying, as-is, from a purely socio-historic point of view, I think it's impossible. If the Realms hasn't industrialized when some cultures (such as the Elves) have had a pretty unbroken period of technological history for the past 15,000+ years (several times more than of any human culture's existence), what makes you think they're about to start now? And I wouldn't say "maybe the Elves just don't like it," since given history, we've seen may Elven-like cultures who eventually industrialized, either forcibly or otherwise (the Celts, the Norse, the Greeks, etc.). Once more.. Not meaning to offend.. But you're asking about the plausibility of the current Realms. It's just not plausible.. But it could be if you either want to ignore a bunch of things or change history, or a bit of both. I would start with drastically dilating the length of established history in the Realms to make it more believable, because if the Elves, who were fully civilized 15,000 years ago before they came to Faerun, truly had been developing cultures on Faerun for the past 15 millennia, then they'd be actually advanced past our current technologies most likely. I'm just using the Elves as one example of many, mind you. I'd say the same for the Dwarves, who also have a period of long unbroken histories; individual nations have fallen, but the overall culture and learning within their society has remained intact. They haven't undergone great upheavals like the Dark Ages wrought on Europe, which put them back centuries, if not millennia, in advancement.
BadCatMan 06-15-06, 11:35 AM	... The Gods get sick of their most powerful worshippers being the most powerful people in the Realms? Yeah, I see Lolth deciding to depose all of her Priestesses real soon. And AO wouldn't give a hoot. Eh, just a stretch, without causing another apocalypse in the Realms. :D
Soul_Reaper 06-16-06, 01:28 AM	They haven't undergone great upheavals like the Dark Ages wrought on Europe, which put them back centuries, if not millennia, in advancement. Very good point. :D Ok then, what would be required to cause such and upheavel, and thus allow for an alternate path of advancement, one more technology orientated?? Maybe another ToT, or a Great War?
MaskedOne 06-16-06, 02:07 AM	Since I have a distinctly vested interest in seeing Mystra stay around in some form or fashion, I may as well try and provide a way to weaken magic a bit. Would it be plausible that a threat of some form or fashion could show up that could 1) keep Mystra and possibly the rest of the pantheon occupied in large part for centuries 2) force Mystra to tap such vast quantities of Weave energy that many higher level magics aren't easily available by virtue of the fact that much of the power that would be available for them is being continually diverted elsewhere Shar would have to be similarly distracted or lose the Shadow Weave but could diverting sufficient power to oppose an unkown threat indefinitely serve as an effective explanation why higher level magics are far more rare?
BrianCritchley 06-16-06, 02:48 AM	why not just not explain it and sortta just shrug and admit this is a differnt "take on the realms" but yeah to change faerun to d20 modern well you'd loose all real sembalance to the realms other then a few place names. then again it'd still be truer to the realms then some movies are to the book they claim to be based off so knock yourself out.
Soul_Reaper 06-16-06, 03:54 AM	why not just not explain it and sortta just shrug and admit this is a differnt "take on the realms" but yeah to change faerun to d20 modern well you'd loose all real sembalance to the realms other then a few place names. then again it'd still be truer to the realms then some movies are to the book they claim to be based off so knock yourself out. Well, just saying "its different because its different" is one way... but whats the fun of that when you can brainstorm some cool ideas. :D Masked One had an interested point, maybe a diety/enity from another Universe has moved into Faerun a) eating/destroying several gods and absorbing their portfolio's b) and it requires Mystera's / Shar's combined magical power of the weave and shadow weave to hold the enity at bay. This could lead to a interesting cult popping up, which causes trouble all on its own by summoning creature's from their master's home realm (outside the current FR comsmopology, maybe dragged in by a Portal/connection made by alien entity.) EDIT: Here is a possibility for 'the entity'. Very brief, just a basic overview. The Nameless One This entity appeared from the void of space, confusming all in its path. He is also known as the Mad God, as he thinks unlike anything or anyone known in Faerun. Just to think of him causes mortal minds to go insane. From what one can discern from the Nameless One's actions is that it releashes in death, chaos and destruction, yet it is unknown if the entity does indeed feel anything, so alien is its nature. He appears as a swirling mass of darkness, with writhing tentecles emerging outwards from the mass, only to be confused once more into the darkness moments later.
BadCatMan 06-16-06, 09:08 AM	Just tossing ideas around here. It needn't be anything big that causes the changeover. d20 seems to be a low-powered system in comparison to D&D - magic is learnt via a prestige class. So maybe say that PCs are comparitively lower in power, potential mages are still in training, only becoming fully fledged wizards when they hit that PrC.
Soul_Reaper 06-16-06, 09:12 AM	Just tossing ideas around here. It needn't be anything big that causes the changeover. d20 seems to be a low-powered system in comparison to D&D - magic is learnt via a prestige class. So maybe say that PCs are comparitively lower in power, potential mages are still in training, only becoming fully fledged wizards when they hit that PrC. Thats true, but I think what we are trying to work out is why all the technology suddenly srung up, as the current level of magic causes tech advancement to stagnate.
BadCatMan 06-16-06, 09:39 AM	I daresay technology would be cheaper, easier to learn and operate, and a damn sight more reliable when it comes to wild and dead magic zones. A ruler looking to inflict some serious harm on an enemy nation would find it a lot easier to train and equip all his peasants with muskets - load, point, shoot, repeat - than teach them all wizardly arts and equip each one with a wand of magic missiles or the like. Magic may be quite powerful in the Realms, but it seems to remain relatively rare and localised. While powerful mages battle it out in spell-duels over the battlefield, the peasants are still hacking at eachother with non-magical weapons. That might be a good idea: make technology the 'peasant's magic'. Mages are rich, well-to-do, and they often keep the magic for themselves. So the peasants learn to do without 'dem mages', and take up cheap and easy technology. The Lantanese supply this cheap tech to eager commoners and lower merchants, who take to steam-powered ploughs and the like. Then there will arise two strata to Faerunian societies: a rich, powerful, magic-wielding upper-class, ruling over an extensive, technological lower class. Maybe a few revolutions here and there alter the status quo and modern-ish societies then develop. Maybe angry tech-wielding former commoners stamp out mages in their lands, and magic goes underground or falls out of fashion.
GothicDan 06-16-06, 09:25 PM	Thats true, but I think what we are trying to work out is why all the technology suddenly srung up, as the current level of magic causes tech advancement to stagnate. Also, why suddenly the universal law of Faerun that higher level tech simply does not work is gone... ;) Unless we're simply going to pretend that law of physics never existed. If it hadn't, then Faerun's tech level would probably be greater, but there's no reason that magic would be diminished at the same time.
BrianCritchley 06-16-06, 09:41 PM	Also, why suddenly the universal law of Faerun that higher level tech simply does not work is gone... ;) Unless we're simply going to pretend that law of physics never existed. If it hadn't, then Faerun's tech level would probably be greater, but there's no reason that magic would be diminished at the same time. problem with this is that surely gond'd have something worked out. but yeah the fact is that the moidern world would be a world where Mystra was dead and Gond was "in her place" as it where
Soul_Reaper 06-17-06, 12:37 AM	Well... maybe Gond pentioned the other gods for an increase in tech, and they aggreed (no need to go into details), and thus the more advance tech could be developed and used... the magic-tech interference a strange side effect of the development. A little of the current topic, but im thinking that for really long distance travel, people would use portals set up in a 'no technology' zone - which makes it rather safe from things like terrorist attacks and what-not, thanks to the effect of the Portal's magical interference on the technology.
GothicDan 06-17-06, 12:59 AM	The thing is, it's not something that Gond has control over. It's just a law of the Faerunian Crystalsphere. This would require major, major, drastic changes to happen. As soon as tech interfered with magic, every deity, including Gond, would stop it, since his clerics use magic, too, and he'd lose power, and all of the deities would.. Including Chauntea and Mystra.. And the world would be annihilated. Magic is a part of Faerun, like protons and electrons are a part of ours. If there's no protons and electrons, there's no earth. Now, having magic BE there, but perhaps harder to access.. That'd be something different. Perhaps only CERTAIN individuals - legendary masters of magic - can access the Weave at its full strength, and perhaps this is very dangerous (something like Wild Surges happening randomly).
Soul_Reaper 06-17-06, 01:14 AM	Wel... If i recall, Mystera blocked 10th Level+ spells when the City of Shade fell right? Well, could something or the sort happen again? Only allowing truely skilled mages to access spells up to 9th? If so, what would have to happen for Mystera to do such a thing?
GothicDan 06-17-06, 03:48 AM	This happened when Karsus cast his Avatar spell, and resulted in the original Goddess of Magic, Mystryl, having to sacrifice herself to prevent all of Faerunian magical civilization from crumbling (and possibly destroying much of Abeir-Toril itself), as Karsus was unable to channel the power needed to keep the entire Weave going after he 'stole' Mystra's power. So, an entire civilization - possibly more - fell and Mystryl was killed (but came back) before this was done, and even then, Mystra reincarnated still allowed the Elves to cast true 10th level spells up until the Time of Troubles. And, even then, in 2E, there was still a SLIGHT possibility for certain archmages (probably the Chosen among them) to use true 10th+ level magical spells, and Elven High Magic could, with more effort, create effects just as powerful. There would have to be a significantly greater magical catastrophe than Karsus's Avatar spell for Mystra to ban 6-9th level spells from the majority of the populace... AO could block the magic, though. For what reason is the question. Perhaps, somehow, Mystra's Chosen were all destroyed, and before she could redistribute her boost in DvR, she soared up to Overgod status. But it was brief enough that AO could smash her back down again, and throw a ban on very powerful magic (6th+) in order to MAKE SURE that such a thing would never happen again. And I'd imagine he'd do the same to the Shadow Weave, just in case. He'd probably allow Mystra to eventually make more Chosen, albeit it less (or to keep any that may have survived), who could still access the full depth of the Weave, to make sure that it wasn't COMPLETELY destroyed (since that would result in all civilization failing). But note that this would still be a RSE probably as major as the Time of Troubles.
Soul_Reaper 06-17-06, 04:05 AM	That idea sounds rather sweet. :D So we got some BBEG killing of the chosen - sounds fun.
GothicDan 06-17-06, 04:12 AM	In a way. As much as I really HATE the idea of randomly killing the Chosen, which so many 3E players seem to love, it may be one of the few plausible (... well, most plausible I can think of) ideas to bring about the state of Faerun you wish. I'm not sure about a BBEG killing the Chosen, though. It would probably have to be something more fantastical. And I'd probably allow the Elves to keep more powerful magic, because they're so heavily tied to it in the first place, and because their patron deity (DvR 18, I believe) is a major god of magic. But this would still leave the gods as significant influences. You'd still have to blend magic and technology, to a point.. And Gond's DvR would slowly but steadily climb. With this "restriction" on the Weave, Shadow Weave users would still become more prevalent (and there's no restriction on their spells over 6th level - well, as I said above, there MIGHT be, but there's probably a better chance there wouldn't be, because Shar would have done nothing wrong), which would probably give Shar the might needed to finally kill Selune. Unless it was Shar herself that orchestrated all of the Chosen to suddenly die at once, boosting Mystra's power, and thus AO punished Shar as well. All in all, it would make for a very much cyberpunk, gothic, nihilistic future Faerun. With the restriction on the Weave, Abeir-Toril would feel less vibrant, less alive... More dead. *cough* Shadowrun *cough* Or maybe Mage: The Ascension, if you want a more antagonistic duality of magic and technology. Another cool idea would be a cabal of Gnome Druids who embraced Technology as the next step in Evolution.
Soul_Reaper 06-17-06, 04:29 AM	In a way. As much as I really HATE the idea of randomly killing the Chosen, which so many 3E players seem to love, it may be one of the few plausible (... well, most plausible I can think of) ideas to bring about the state of Faerun you wish. Instead of killing them, could their power be cut off from Mysteria somehow? And I'd probably allow the Elves to keep more powerful magic, because they're so heavily tied to it in the first place, and because their patron deity (DvR 18, I believe) is a major god of magic. Yeah, i was planning on making elves the main magic users in the realms. All in all, it would make for a very much cyberpunk, gothic, nihilistic future Faerun. With the restriction on the Weave, Abeir-Toril would feel less vibrant, less alive... More dead. This is something I dont want, I'd prefer to keep the feel to the Realms as much as possible. Would retaining high level magic, but making it more difficult to reach it work better - I think d20 Fantasy, made by Skrittiblak here on the boards does such a thing. Which is what I think I prefer, but what we need is a reason for technology to suddenly start developing faster than it has previously. Btw, Im thinking at maybe 1000-2000 years ahead of the current timeline, plently of things can happen during that time. EDIT: Their would still be alot of it seen around, and mages would be as common as they are now, especially in smaller rural comminutes where technology is not as pervalent. The only different is that the spell level is reduced... Another cool idea would be a cabal of Gnome Druids who embraced Technology as the next step in Evolution. Heh, that would be an interesting thing to see.
Crust 06-17-06, 09:43 AM	As someone mentioned, Faerun's history is vastly different from our own. In Faerun, the sword has been the weapon of choice (if you will) for thousands upon thousands of years. When considering our own history on Earth, one might say, "Boy, you'd think dwarves or gnomes would have already designed and created the first internal combustion engine by now, or the elves would have created a means to propel oneself through the air without relying on magic." How technology hasn't made any progress past the sword can only be explained by magic. With magic in the world, there's no need for technology. Not everyone can cast magic missile, scorching ray, expeditious retreat, haste, or stoneskin, but anyone can drive a car, don a vest of kevlar armor, pull a trigger, or press a button and launch a nuclear missile. With this in mind, technological breakthroughs (especially those involving warfare) are ground to a halt, often by wizards themselves. Khelben himself has expressed the dangers of simple technological advancements like gunpowder. Magic users in general can't allow technology to advance because magic would then become obsolete, and the average Joe could point a revolver at any magic user and kill him/her rather easily. Wizards hold most of the cards on Faerun. I think they'd like to keep the deck stacked in their favor, rather than allow the common person to hold any power over them or others through technology. We'd have Lex Luther types challanging Elminster. Do we want that? We've seen this idea in the Arthurian legends and in Tolkien's Middle-earth. When the fey creatures depart, when magic ceases to be, when Men become the dominant race, then the "Modern Age" is allowed to begin, and technology becomes necessary. It's often the case that magic and techology have trouble coexisting. It seems logical to me. Like oil and water, they don't mix well. Those who want their cake and eat it too will vehemently defend the idea that magic and technology CAN coexist. It's possible. Anything's possible, really. Does it make sense? Tolkien didn't think so. It doesn't seem to be endorsed by the core rules or the FRCS. It's an interesting dynamic in fantasy literature.
MaskedOne 06-17-06, 10:16 AM	Another option on limiting magic which may or may not be plausible and depends on whether you like the Shadow Weave. Mystra manages to take the Shadow Weave and starts to integrate it with the Weave. However, she is not aware that the Shadow Weave itself has always been a trap and partway through process, the Shadow Weave destroys itself rather dramatically at the same time destabilizing the Weave that it's partially integrated with. Mystra has managed to partially stabilize matters but higher level spells are still unless cast by an extremely skilled caster or with the support of a divinity of magic likely to result in a wild magic surge. As such, most spellcasting traditions have limited the training in and use of such magics. In the meantime, Gond's church aquires an influx in wealth from various seemingly upstanding members of different communities and eventually constant patronage from various nations providing a chance for tech to develop. The conspiracy aspect being below: This is one of Shar's odder plots. She wants to bring down the world if memory serves and she doesn't have the magical capacity to do it with any certainty. Instead she's going to set Mystra back centuries and quietly support Gond in the hopes that eventually weapons tech will be developed capable of accomplishing her goals. Arranging for her to get the idea is simple enough, a planeswalker in her service at some point spent time in Earth and came back with tales of some of our less pleasant equipment. Gond does not know who his benefactor is and may not even be aware that a greater divinity has been backing him.
Blackheart 06-19-06, 10:27 AM	This comes late, but I only just read the thread. The discussion reminded me of an idea I was going to use in my own game that went unused, so I thought I would expand it and share. Through thousands of years of use, what once was a strong fabric of magic draped over Toril has become...threadbare. The Weave is just that, a multitude of strings that casters manipulate and knit together to form their own spells, but the name isnt symbolic like most thought. Casting pulls more threads from the strong sheet and it becomes ever thinner. Then gaps appear where certain strings are taken wholly out. Similarly, the Shadow Weave loses it's stability due to the fact that its framework is the Weave itself, thus the more strings lost from the Weave, the more threadbare, in turn, the Shadow Weave becomes. The gods, Mystra in particular, find this disturbing and startling...an unforseen side-effect of magic and to ensure the existence of the world, Mystra extends her ban to cover lower levels of magic so that she can work to restore the power lost within the Weave. The gods of artifice aren't opportunists in this scenario, as they are just as hurt by the loss of powerful magics among their followers, but to ease the burden of lost magical utilities, they promote the creation of lower tech items, maybe bringing the world not much farther than the late Rennaisance or early Victorian Age as far as tech goes.
TempusELoT 06-19-06, 08:07 PM	I concur with Blackheart on this topic. Having the Weave and Shadow Weave becoming "threadbare" and thus Mystra placing some ban on higher level spells takes into account the necessity of magic on Toril, and allows for some sort of advancement of technology by the gods of artifice. maybe bringing the world not much farther than the late Rennaisance or early Victorian Age as far as tech goes. I think that's a good estimate of the technological level that could occur in this scenario. This scenario leaves one point not yet considered. What happens when Mystra completes repairs of the Weave? Wizards and clerics would again have access to the most potent magics, thus the need for technology would be countered just as it is now. And we know we can't completely remove or deaden the Weave or Toril ceases to be. I really think it would be a cyclical effect. Magic is used until the Weave grows "threadbare" and then techonology is used to compensate until the Weave is repaired. And thus is starts again.
Karsus the Mad 06-19-06, 08:49 PM	This scenario leaves one point not yet considered. What happens when Mystra completes repairs of the Weave? Wizards and clerics would again have access to the most potent magics, thus the need for technology would be countered just as it is now. That depends on whether or not wizards and clerics would have retained the knowledge of how to access higher magic (a very good possibility). And we know we can't completely remove or deaden the Weave or Toril ceases to be. Nah, Toril wouldn't go pop ;) Magic as it's known on Toril would cease, but that's about it. Spellcasters would have to figure out other ways to harness magic (a good way to introduce variant spellcasting rules, etc). I really think it would be a cyclical effect. Magic is used until the Weave grows "threadbare" and then techonology is used to compensate until the Weave is repaired. And thus is starts again. I really like that idea. It's similar to arcanum, although it's a natural cycle.
Soul_Reaper 06-20-06, 12:03 AM	I really think it would be a cyclical effect. Magic is used until the Weave grows "threadbare" and then techonology is used to compensate until the Weave is repaired. And thus is starts again. That sounds like a very cool idea. Ill think I use that for the game, and add it to the first post of this thread. :D Now... next Question: What would the seperate races be like from this change? For example, instead of mining iron, would dwarves now mine coal for the new machinery that has developed.
GothicDan 06-20-06, 12:14 AM	Nah, Toril wouldn't go pop Magic as it's known on Toril would cease, but that's about it. Spellcasters would have to figure out other ways to harness magic (a good way to introduce variant spellcasting rules, etc). This isn't all. Ed Greenwood commented on what would happen if the Weave was destroyed. Since it permeates every aspect of Faerun, all of the natural forces of the world would rampage. I'd imagine it'd be something like if, for a brief a time, Talos and Shar had DvR 20.
BadCatMan 06-20-06, 01:50 AM	What would the seperate races be like from this change? For example, instead of mining iron, would dwarves now mine coal for the new machinery that has developed. Dwarves wouldn't stop mining anything. Everyone would still iron, mithral, adamantine, etcetera. They would just expand their operations to include new underground resources: coal, oil, gas, etc - things they may never have thought of a use for before. Dwarves would likely grow quite rich and powerful and influential, somewhat like the rulers of the middle east. (The same would go for Duergar in the Underdark.) Humans and Dwarves would become increasingly dominant.
GothicDan 06-20-06, 02:19 AM	Gnomes would probably become the scientists, while Dwarves would most likely become the Engineers; as I said above, I could see the Gnomes becoming Technomancers. And I think that the Elves would probably be the last bastion of true magical power in the land. (Especially because, with or without the Weave, they could probably still access a certain amount of it due to Corellon.)
Soul_Reaper 06-20-06, 02:32 AM	Gnomes would probably become the scientists, while Dwarves would most likely become the Engineers; as I said above, I could see the Gnomes becoming Technomancers. And I think that the Elves would probably be the last bastion of true magical power in the land. (Especially because, with or without the Weave, they could probably still access a certain amount of it due to Corellon.) Yeah, the elves being the dominate magic users was my original idea, and this is supported by their religion. :D
GothicDan 06-20-06, 02:37 AM	Cool. I could see Lantan as becoming sort of the City of Technology...
Soul_Reaper 06-20-06, 02:47 AM	Cool. I could see Lantan as becoming sort of the City of Technology... Yeah Also, maybe we can have a feat, or series of, that allow the integration of magic and tech - ie. gnome technomancers. :D This is opposed to the usual Magic Vs. Tech thing.
GothicDan 06-20-06, 03:10 AM	No more crunch... Please.. *whimper*
BadCatMan 06-20-06, 04:02 AM	I'm making a homebrew campaign setting at the moment that is very similar to this, but based around Psionics in an late 1800s style world. Most of what I've done veers far from FR, but some might still apply. Gnomes, with their skill at Craft: Alchemy (aka Chemistry), invented gunpowder, became pioneering chemists, and discovered a number of medicines. They also invented drugs, and gnomish opium dens are common. Dwarves are mostly a lot like the Duergar. They developed big factory cities, shrouded in pollution and gloom. They also built dams, bridges and other great earthworks. Goblins are skilled riders, they became civilised and produced elite cavalry. In the future, they might develop automobiles. Kobolds are skilled miners and compete with the Dwarves. They built secure, well-trapped banks deep underground (I have no underdark), and they are quite rich. Orcs, being quite strong and quite dumb, became the perfect slaves and were exported around the world. Now they're free, and trying to integrate, but are discriminated against.
Soul_Reaper 06-21-06, 09:46 AM	Well, with the periodic fall outs of magic, I can see drow and other humaniod species being driven from teh udnerground thanks to the stronger monsters that inhabit the underdark. Also, psionic creatures, ie. Mindflayers, would be alot more effective during the periods - possibily leading to the Illithid wars or something similar, where the Illithid try to invade the surface along with their minons - another strong influence for the development of tech, plus it gives some intersting history. :D
Zsych 06-21-06, 03:04 PM	I suggest the creation of powerful raw magic users. Perhaps a new system or school of magic that only epic casters can access. But drawing from raw magic too often, or too much, causes the Weave and Shadow-weave in the area to destablize, creating dead magic(and shadow-magic) zones... not too much of an issue for these raw magic drawing epic mages. The raw mages wield much more power than regular mages, and are essentially immune to the activities of gods since gods need the Weave or Shadow-weave to cast spells(when they learn to wield raw magic, it'll be a seperate issue... if they learn, and can tolerate dead magic zones themselves) Thus these elite and mostly immortal mages continue to exist, and expand their powers. On the other hand, increased numbers of dead magic zones, create unreliable magical ability for regular mages. Magic is also being syphoned off from all of Toril to try to fix the dead magic zones, weakening what magic they have left(this is going too far :)). Insert Lantan's technological devices giving mages much the same overall ability as before(or at least enough ability to make them consider themselves powerful :)), without dependence on magic. And thus Mages start to dedicate their high INT scores to something other than magic... :) Some might turn to paths like Incarnum, but many might not find their natures being along those lines. And of course, many who can, will simply go to other worlds to save their magic if they can't stop the change. .............. Somehow this whole idea is reminding me of Dark-Sun and the sorceror-kings. The raw mages would preferably have to be part of one group originally, if they are to survive the gods' initial reactions... before they start becoming invulnerable. These characters also studying gods/divine magic and coming up with a limited version of the Imaskari style spells, may also be useful to some degree. Hmm.... i think that the time when the raw mages are just seriously starting to weaken the Weaves, and the mages are only starting to turn away from magic(with tech coming in)... might be a good point in time to begin the game. Plus it lets you bring in guys like Elminster in very different circumstances(at the losing end of a war gone bad).
GothicDan 06-21-06, 03:56 PM	Of course, using Zysch's scenario, you would have to toss the fact out the window that mortals, regardless of level, cannot channel raw magic in Faerun. Mystra, however, can. And this would create group of insanely powerful archmages... Which doesn't seem to be what you're going for in your world.
Karsus the Mad 06-21-06, 07:55 PM	Well, technically, mortals can...MoF, but it's exceptionally difficult and can easily destroy even a skilled and patient mortal...tho' the FRCS says it can't... Wonderful example of wotcism :rolleyes: Why need a pantheonic cataclysm? Maybe something more mundane could be the cause. Simple improvement of the overall learning of commoners eventually produces a learned-class of society not exclusive to scholars or the wealthy. When a society is relatively learned, it'll naturally begin utilizing that knowledge, experiment, fail, revise, experiment again, fail, tweek a bit more, experiment, succeed, put into common use, experiment upon existing common use, improve, replace as new common use, etc, etc.
GothicDan 06-21-06, 08:31 PM	That would still leave a lot of deities in place.. And improvement over technologies wouldn't immediately reduce the power of magic. Just advancing technology wouldn't make people apathetic towards magic; I'm studying physics and I still want to be a wizard. :p
ArnimThayer 06-21-06, 11:18 PM	I did a similar campaign for D20 modern when Urban Arcanna came out called Realms 2000. Overall, the premise was fairly embraced by my players, except for the use of D20 Modern mechanics (which are fine... my players were not as familiar with them, though). We borrowed the Occuptions from a project called Classically Modern from the Merlin's Workshop website (recommend checking it out) after initially helping playtest the system created there. We used some Modern real-life models for FR countries, such as Cormyr being a monarchy (i.e. Britian) with the true ruling power being various noble families, via a Council (i.e. Parliment). We didn't delve too deep into the why of things (like limited magic and such) because to the characters in it, life had been this way for centuries (keep in mind, this is 600+ years later). I limited the campaign arc geographically, to ease the players into it, using an assassination plot against the monarchy by a prominent Council member as the backdrop; finding out the who and why was the basis of the campaign. And this worked out fine, with far less stress on me as a GM. I follow a myopic perspective with GMing. I try to never create more than is going to directly effect the players. In this way, I don't find myself disappointed when the players choose a different path than I have plotted. I "wing it" for the remainder of the session, then spend the time in between planning and prepping for the choice they have chosen. Sometimes this works well, sometimes not. But either way, I find I waste less time DMing this way. The players could care less if I know all the noble families and notables of Waterdeep if they are never going to go there. As a DM you have to be prepared to go with the flow of your players. I say create and explain only what you feel is relevant to your story.
Soul_Reaper 06-22-06, 12:15 AM	I was considering the same thing (for the government etc), and I will look into the Classically Modern - I've looked over it briefly before. Where basically doing up the 'how it happened' bit because over on the d20 modern gaming boards, it helps to have a nice intro saying why 'xyz' is in effect. Plus it is interesting to brainstorm the ideas. :D Anyway, so far we have; - Dwarves being major resource exporters, large factory cities with pollution to go with them. They are very good engineers and thus also build dams, bridges and other great earthworks. Dwarves tend to apply the ideas that the gnomish scientists develop. (Engineer - scientist relationship) - Gnomes would be the scientists, and have invented a lot of the tech that is available in the current time period, ie. guns, motor cars, engines, etc. They also have developed a lot of drugs and the like, having discovered a large number of modern medicines. - Goblins (in my mind) would become the underclass worker, possibly moving more to crime due to their lack of physical strength (as opposed to orcs, see below). - Orcs (and half-orcs), first act as perfect slaves, due to their low intelligence and great strength. Soon however, they are given rights and integrate into society, but are discriminated against. They mainly take the underclass factory jobs, or jobs that require brute strength. - Elves would act as the last bastion of magic, and would not look towards technology to solve their problems. Instead they would follow a more natural lifestyle (much like they do now, with their homes as part of the trees, etc.) and would still practice a lot of magic - even though they at times did not have access to the more power magics. - Drow are pushed up from the underdark by more power races, as without the use of powerful magic, they are fighting a losing battle. Instead the populate to the lower areas of the major cities, taking up living in the sewers and such. Eventually however, they would move into more prosperous positions, and form mafia-like organisations run by elder drow while the younger ones for gangs and the like. Any ideas for the other races? Such as halfling, and the placentouched?
BadCatMan 06-22-06, 01:44 AM	Tielfings would likely fall into crime, while Aasimar would become celebrities (movie stars, models), due to Cha bonus, or priests, preachers, doctors, psychiatrists due to Wis and innate goodness. Also lawyers and judges for the lawful ones. Genasi would take to professions that put them close to their associated elements. Water Genasi sailors and swimmers, Earth Genasi miners, Air Genasi pilots. Halflings, as ever, would have their own communities in all the other human lands. Adapting but unified. A bit like Jewish people (no disrepect intended). Rangers could be like the Rangers we have here in Australia - conservationists, finders of lost dogs and cats, mediators in neighbourhood disputes. Or rescue workers. ('Course, Rangers don't exist in d20, so something close to it.) One thing I noticed putting together my world was giving all the cool history to the non-humans, and forgetting about everything humans are capable of. Because they are capable of anything, I tended to assume they did everything else and practically ignored them.
Zsych 06-25-06, 12:04 PM	My rawmages won't be too much of an issue, if they're not power hungry as such. People with Larloch or Ioulaum's attitudes, interested in improving themselves(and not really caring about others) are more or less enough. As for whether you can use raw magic or not... psionics manage it just fine :) Personally, i'd expect such raw magic users to be wizards or sorcerors that also have monk training :) As for science overriding magic... Let's assume that science is being used to make things. Mass proudction kicks in, and science provides better lives to the people. Magic in general(with Netheril style magic gone) cannot serve the same purpose for the community, being mainly something that serves the elites of the society(due to it's cost). Over time men turn towards technology, including intelligent people(aka potential wizards). Wizards come to be looked down on, as people who work only for their own growth and benefit(and possibly immortality), and ignore the common man, so that good oriented people start turning to science........ And overtime, science ends up in a higher standing than magic. Yaay!!!! :)
GothicDan 06-25-06, 08:02 PM	Let's assume that science is being used to make things. Mass proudction kicks in, and science provides better lives to the people. First flaw of your argument: you're assuming something as truth without analyzing all of the variables attached to the postulated situation.
Zsych 06-26-06, 04:46 AM	@Dan: I'm saying it only in the sense that he can use such an idea as the basis for why magic is no longer as popular. If he wants to add detail to it, he can. Another thought i was having... going by my combined magical items concept from the Shade vs. Evermeet thread... Wizards could develop magical constructs(combining several magical items) that simulate 10+ spells. Let's say 10 9th level part magic items, to make an item that is effectively 10th level. Add some Imaskari style research, and Mystra has more than enough reason to be worried, limiting magic. If you ignore the Imaskari idea... let's say it's good, freedom loving people who've achieved such magic that Mystra bans. Possibly also banning their ability to use magic as a whole(in some cases), which turns out to be bad judgement, and those with higher magic, decide to start portaling out to get away from Mystra's attempts to keep them in the Middle Ages. Eventually Mystra stops the use of Portal spells :) Making some of the more proud people reject her magic... leading to some taking up Shadow-magic, and some stopping magic altogether.. and somehow reaching Gond's path. It's obviously just a basic idea of course... Whatever suits you. I'd like to hear what you finally come up with Soul Reaper(assuming you use any of our ideas :)). Hmm... i'm suddenly seeing Elminster as in charge of propoganda to improve the way people look on Mystra and magic :)
Xavier_of_Cormyr 06-26-06, 09:50 AM	the whole idea seems very Final Fantasy to me (games III & VII especially) so maybe rip a bit off of that franchise for ideas?