Moral Dilemma in Waterdeep [Archive] - Wizards Community

Moral Dilemma in Waterdeep [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jackshadow
03-15-04, 03:36 PM Need a little help with a moral dilemma in the party.

We're exploring the Banewarrens in Waterdeep, with a party of:

1 Aasimar Paladin of Tyr
1 Half-elven ranger/divine seeker (Eilistraee's the patron)
1 Human Bard
1 Dwarven Cleric Kalangadin (Forgive the spelling)
1 Elven Monk of Mielikki

Problem is this. During the course of the adventure, we ran into some Drow, and captured one of them (female priestess). The Paladin wants to drag her back to the High Court of Tyr for judgement, while the Ranger/DD want to take her to the temple of Eilistraee.

Can you say irresistable force versus immovable object? The paladin is playing it straight with the whole Tyrrian "stern justice for all, etc" idea, and the ranger is backing Eilistraee's "Save the Drow" idea. Two questions:

1. What, if any, official capacity does the Tyrrian church have in delivering justice in Waterdeep?

2. What is the interaction if any between the elven pantheon and the human pantheon, i.e. Tyr and Eilistraee getting along, whatever.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Kuje31
03-15-04, 04:17 PM Well Waterdeep has thier own courts that are seperate from Tyr's Church..... Sure some of the clergy of Tyr is probably in the courts, but the city itself has it's own judges, the Magisters........

In the City of Splendors box set it says some low level clergy have positions in the courts since they can cast detect lie..... But it's expensive and rarely used.
Mirtek
03-15-04, 04:32 PM In Thornhold a paladin of Tyr was arrested by the city guard and hold in prison for a few days, since his duty to Tyr did collide with the law of Waterdeep.

The church of Tyr is bound by the law of Waterdeep like anyone else and Tyr's clergy doesn't get any special treatment.
Wooly Rupert
03-15-04, 07:19 PM Where, exactly, was the priestess when she was captured, and what was she doing? And had she committed any crimes *in* Waterdeep?
J. Grenemyer
03-15-04, 09:48 PM Hello Jackshadow,

Originally posted by Jackshadow
Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Well, if it gets out of hand I’d recommend the players opt to do both.

Which is to say the Paladin ought to allow the prisoner to be turned over to the Priestesses of Elistrae for an (unforced) chance at redemption, with the unspoken agreement that should those priestesses ever determine the prisoner has failed (or is otherwise incapable) at finding redemption on her own, she’ll be immediately turned over by those priestesses to the Tyrans to answer for her crimes.

Also, Tyrans IIRC are beholden to whatever law in the area prevails. So far as I know, the laws of Waterdeep end just below its surface.

Thus, if the temple to Elistrae is below Waterdeep, then its occupants (as well as the prisoner) are outside the city's rule. Add to that the notion that the Elistraen are probably the most experienced at dealing with evil Drow, not to mention their rules for such are probably the most advanced and meticulous on the issue, so their methods (read: "laws") ought to take precedence over the city above.

My thoughts, anyway.

;)
Kezghan
03-15-04, 10:34 PM I think its been covered nicely by the other posts here, what did the drow do exactly that has them wanting legal justice? Definatly the Courts of Waterdeep are higher on the legal chain then the Faith of Tyr in the City but im sure they share numerous connections. Good luck.
Sarta
03-16-04, 01:33 AM Definitely have to agree with the above. The court of Waterdeep is where the trial should occur.

The temple of Ilistraee is in Ardeep isn't it?

It is unlikely that local officials will allow a potential prisoner to be removed from town for trial somewhere else. I can't see the Tyr worshipper allowing or aiding this either. Especially if the drow must be snuck out of town past guards.

Sarta
Wooly Rupert
03-16-04, 01:42 AM Originally posted by Sarta
The temple of Ilistraee is in Ardeep isn't it?

Eilistraee has a few temples scattered around, but the biggest one is the Promenade, which is just outside of Skullport, on Undermountain's third level. 'Tis lead by the Seventh Sister, Qilué Veladorn.

A compromise would be to not take her to the priestesses of Eilistraee, but have a couple come to her. Of course, that's not gonna be easy to work out, either...
Jackshadow
03-16-04, 09:25 AM The priestess was involved in breaching the wards securing some of the evil artifacts in the Bane Warrens. She was actually caught in an antechamber within the warrens, along with a group of Drow soldiers/bodyguards.

So, I get how the church of Tyr's justice is separate, but how does that jibe with the "first" Lord being a paladin of Tyr? Our paladin is pretty insistent that she be held accountable for her actions, but I have a hard time swallowing the fact that a Tyrrian court judge a *drow*, in a city with its own system of justice.

Thanks for the input thus far!
Wooly Rupert
03-16-04, 10:57 AM I'm not at all familiar with the Banewarrens... What are they, and where are they?

If they lie within the city, and the priestess was caught there, then turn her over to the city. After all, the city is the law... City law should override temple law. Like Mirtek said: "The church of Tyr is bound by the law of Waterdeep like anyone else and Tyr's clergy doesn't get any special treatment."

As for Open Lord Peirgeiron, he's a Lord of Waterdeep first, and a paladin second. He's always gonna try to do the right thing, but he's gonna side with the city before he sides with the church of Tyr.
HVulpes
03-16-04, 11:38 AM Well, you could always try this. Have the Paladin turn her over, but have the ranger organize a case for the Drow to be reformed by the church of Eilistraee (Sp?). It might be an interesting role play to hold a court case.

Plus there might be intrigue as different forces might try to manipulate the trial. Like a person who has lost his family to Drow trying to get her conviced. Or members of the Church of Eilistraee trying to convert the priestess before her trial.

Plus you get to combine the Paladin's role of law with the Ranger's role of redemption.

Just an idea. It might need to be developed more.
Kuje31
03-16-04, 01:39 PM Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not at all familiar with the Banewarrens... What are they, and where are they?

Banewarrens is a 3rd party module put out by Sword & Sorcery. :)
Mystery Man
03-16-04, 06:54 PM [Banewarrens] Trap heavy. Fun but can get tedious for the players.
Jackshadow
03-17-04, 10:35 AM *****Do NOT tell me anything about the module!! I want it to be a surprise!****

I think we'll have a "joint" session with the High Court and the Promenade represented, and keep it out of the City courts. Lots of political maneuvering with some powerful families that would make a public trial a Bad Idea.

I appreciate the ideas and thoughts from you guys! Definitely going to be helpful as we move forward!

Thanks!
Alac Luin
03-18-04, 11:59 AM Just a passing thought, If this priestess was the leader of the other Drow, wouldn’t she be irredeemable?

The other soldiers/bodyguards would be a better mark for conversion to Ellastraee and all.

Think of it this way, if the PC's help the priestess escape justice, like having her hide somewhere, they are guilty of aiding and abiding a criminal and would become criminals in their own right.
This may not be the case if the authorities don’t know about the crime.
It is something to think about.

The best bet is to turn her over to the civil authorities that have jurisdiction, if no crime was committed within a city, then one church has no better claim then the other.

I’ll also have to ask, what were this priestess’ crimes? Are they really any different then the PC’s? The priestess was where she wasn’t supposed to be, but were the PC’s supposed to be there? If they were working for someone, it is the employer that gets the say on what happens to the priestess.
If the priestess is guilty of “trespassing” and the PC’s were not there on an official function, then they are just as guilty of “trespassing”.
If her only other crime is being evil, well, being “evil” is not in itself a crime, it is the actions you do that are crimes.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jackshadow 03-15-04, 03:36 PM	Need a little help with a moral dilemma in the party. We're exploring the Banewarrens in Waterdeep, with a party of: 1 Aasimar Paladin of Tyr 1 Half-elven ranger/divine seeker (Eilistraee's the patron) 1 Human Bard 1 Dwarven Cleric Kalangadin (Forgive the spelling) 1 Elven Monk of Mielikki Problem is this. During the course of the adventure, we ran into some Drow, and captured one of them (female priestess). The Paladin wants to drag her back to the High Court of Tyr for judgement, while the Ranger/DD want to take her to the temple of Eilistraee. Can you say irresistable force versus immovable object? The paladin is playing it straight with the whole Tyrrian "stern justice for all, etc" idea, and the ranger is backing Eilistraee's "Save the Drow" idea. Two questions: 1. What, if any, official capacity does the Tyrrian church have in delivering justice in Waterdeep? 2. What is the interaction if any between the elven pantheon and the human pantheon, i.e. Tyr and Eilistraee getting along, whatever. Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Kuje31 03-15-04, 04:17 PM	Well Waterdeep has thier own courts that are seperate from Tyr's Church..... Sure some of the clergy of Tyr is probably in the courts, but the city itself has it's own judges, the Magisters........ In the City of Splendors box set it says some low level clergy have positions in the courts since they can cast detect lie..... But it's expensive and rarely used.
Mirtek 03-15-04, 04:32 PM	In Thornhold a paladin of Tyr was arrested by the city guard and hold in prison for a few days, since his duty to Tyr did collide with the law of Waterdeep. The church of Tyr is bound by the law of Waterdeep like anyone else and Tyr's clergy doesn't get any special treatment.
Wooly Rupert 03-15-04, 07:19 PM	Where, exactly, was the priestess when she was captured, and what was she doing? And had she committed any crimes in Waterdeep?
J. Grenemyer 03-15-04, 09:48 PM	Hello Jackshadow, Originally posted by Jackshadow Any input would be greatly appreciated. Well, if it gets out of hand I’d recommend the players opt to do both. Which is to say the Paladin ought to allow the prisoner to be turned over to the Priestesses of Elistrae for an (unforced) chance at redemption, with the unspoken agreement that should those priestesses ever determine the prisoner has failed (or is otherwise incapable) at finding redemption on her own, she’ll be immediately turned over by those priestesses to the Tyrans to answer for her crimes. Also, Tyrans IIRC are beholden to whatever law in the area prevails. So far as I know, the laws of Waterdeep end just below its surface. Thus, if the temple to Elistrae is below Waterdeep, then its occupants (as well as the prisoner) are outside the city's rule. Add to that the notion that the Elistraen are probably the most experienced at dealing with evil Drow, not to mention their rules for such are probably the most advanced and meticulous on the issue, so their methods (read: "laws") ought to take precedence over the city above. My thoughts, anyway. ;)
Kezghan 03-15-04, 10:34 PM	I think its been covered nicely by the other posts here, what did the drow do exactly that has them wanting legal justice? Definatly the Courts of Waterdeep are higher on the legal chain then the Faith of Tyr in the City but im sure they share numerous connections. Good luck.
Sarta 03-16-04, 01:33 AM	Definitely have to agree with the above. The court of Waterdeep is where the trial should occur. The temple of Ilistraee is in Ardeep isn't it? It is unlikely that local officials will allow a potential prisoner to be removed from town for trial somewhere else. I can't see the Tyr worshipper allowing or aiding this either. Especially if the drow must be snuck out of town past guards. Sarta
Wooly Rupert 03-16-04, 01:42 AM	Originally posted by Sarta The temple of Ilistraee is in Ardeep isn't it? Eilistraee has a few temples scattered around, but the biggest one is the Promenade, which is just outside of Skullport, on Undermountain's third level. 'Tis lead by the Seventh Sister, Qilué Veladorn. A compromise would be to not take her to the priestesses of Eilistraee, but have a couple come to her. Of course, that's not gonna be easy to work out, either...
Jackshadow 03-16-04, 09:25 AM	The priestess was involved in breaching the wards securing some of the evil artifacts in the Bane Warrens. She was actually caught in an antechamber within the warrens, along with a group of Drow soldiers/bodyguards. So, I get how the church of Tyr's justice is separate, but how does that jibe with the "first" Lord being a paladin of Tyr? Our paladin is pretty insistent that she be held accountable for her actions, but I have a hard time swallowing the fact that a Tyrrian court judge a drow, in a city with its own system of justice. Thanks for the input thus far!
Wooly Rupert 03-16-04, 10:57 AM	I'm not at all familiar with the Banewarrens... What are they, and where are they? If they lie within the city, and the priestess was caught there, then turn her over to the city. After all, the city is the law... City law should override temple law. Like Mirtek said: "The church of Tyr is bound by the law of Waterdeep like anyone else and Tyr's clergy doesn't get any special treatment." As for Open Lord Peirgeiron, he's a Lord of Waterdeep first, and a paladin second. He's always gonna try to do the right thing, but he's gonna side with the city before he sides with the church of Tyr.
HVulpes 03-16-04, 11:38 AM	Well, you could always try this. Have the Paladin turn her over, but have the ranger organize a case for the Drow to be reformed by the church of Eilistraee (Sp?). It might be an interesting role play to hold a court case. Plus there might be intrigue as different forces might try to manipulate the trial. Like a person who has lost his family to Drow trying to get her conviced. Or members of the Church of Eilistraee trying to convert the priestess before her trial. Plus you get to combine the Paladin's role of law with the Ranger's role of redemption. Just an idea. It might need to be developed more.
Kuje31 03-16-04, 01:39 PM	Originally posted by Wooly Rupert I'm not at all familiar with the Banewarrens... What are they, and where are they? Banewarrens is a 3rd party module put out by Sword & Sorcery. :)
Mystery Man 03-16-04, 06:54 PM	[Banewarrens] Trap heavy. Fun but can get tedious for the players.
Jackshadow 03-17-04, 10:35 AM	***Do NOT tell me anything about the module!! I want it to be a surprise!** I think we'll have a "joint" session with the High Court and the Promenade represented, and keep it out of the City courts. Lots of political maneuvering with some powerful families that would make a public trial a Bad Idea. I appreciate the ideas and thoughts from you guys! Definitely going to be helpful as we move forward! Thanks!
Alac Luin 03-18-04, 11:59 AM	Just a passing thought, If this priestess was the leader of the other Drow, wouldn’t she be irredeemable? The other soldiers/bodyguards would be a better mark for conversion to Ellastraee and all. Think of it this way, if the PC's help the priestess escape justice, like having her hide somewhere, they are guilty of aiding and abiding a criminal and would become criminals in their own right. This may not be the case if the authorities don’t know about the crime. It is something to think about. The best bet is to turn her over to the civil authorities that have jurisdiction, if no crime was committed within a city, then one church has no better claim then the other. I’ll also have to ask, what were this priestess’ crimes? Are they really any different then the PC’s? The priestess was where she wasn’t supposed to be, but were the PC’s supposed to be there? If they were working for someone, it is the employer that gets the say on what happens to the priestess. If the priestess is guilty of “trespassing” and the PC’s were not there on an official function, then they are just as guilty of “trespassing”. If her only other crime is being evil, well, being “evil” is not in itself a crime, it is the actions you do that are crimes.