| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Falkomur06-21-03, 06:16 AM | Who is/was Mordenkainen? Where did he live? Where did he come from? What did he do? Lot's of questions but It will only take a minute to answer right? TNX ;) |
| Another Gnome06-21-03, 07:36 AM | Mordenkainen is the big-name wizard of Greyhawk, similar to what Elminster is to Forgotten Realms. See Epic Level Handbook for Mordenkainen's stats and stuff, though I guess you can find something about his history by doing a web search as well. At any rate, he has no actual relevance to Realms. |
| Falkomur06-21-03, 07:49 AM | You are probably right, but in "The seven Sisters" ADnD accesory he makes an appearence in The Simbul's entry. It seems that he knows El and The Simbul. Therefore I asked the question. But thanks for your reply, I'll take your advice and do some research across the net. |
| The Simbul06-21-03, 11:16 AM | That was an exerpt from a short story by Ed Greenwood called "Once more the Three", it was a meeting between Elminster, Mordenkainen, and Dalamar, three Archmages from separate campaign worlds, whom while discussing other subjects decided to share some of their more unique spells. At one point The Simbul made an appearence and shared a spell from her own collection "Alamanther's Return " (see Magic of Faerun for it's 3rd ed write up) which had been created a number of years ago by an apprentice of hers whose name adorns the spell's title. However in the 3rd edition D&D and Forgotten Realms Cosmology rules, such a meeting cannot and presumeably never actaully did happen, hence the reason why the above poster said Mordenkainen is not truly relevant to the realms. As for many of the Player's Handbook spells that bear the names of some of the greyhawk spellcasters? well one could either change the names of those spells to attribute them to Faerun's more famous spellcasters, or simply take the SRD approach and remove the personal names from the spells title alltogether. |
| Falkomur06-21-03, 11:36 AM | Thanks for your explanation Simbul. I really liked the stats and story with Mordenkainen. Any ideas how I could incorporate him into my campaign. I know the Greyhawk campaign setting has an unexplored west, so you could cut the crap with Orientel Adventures and but the Greyhawk continent next to Faerun's right? |
| Faraer06-21-03, 12:55 PM | Mordenkainen is Gary Gygax's highest-level PC. When Gary got a break from DMing his Greyhawk Campaign, another DM (usually Rob Kuntz) would step in and DM for Gary and others. Mordenkainen was born in the Wild Coast of the continent of Oerik and has a citadel in the north of that continent; the closest Realms comparison is Khelben Arunsun. The character as played by Gary, as written by Gary in his novels, and as published by TSR after Gary left the company are all rather different. Anyway, Ed likes the World of Greyhawk setting, hence the "Wizards Three" articles. And as I've argued previously, the instances of cross-world travel are both far too numerous and far too integral to the setting to be retconned by WotC; despite implications of the FRCS, they haven't made that retcon and I don't expect they will: rather they'll hedge and keep quiet over the whole issue. |
| Gadodel06-21-03, 04:02 PM | Originally posted by Falkomur Thanks for your explanation Simbul. I really liked the stats and story with Mordenkainen. Any ideas how I could incorporate him into my campaign. I know the Greyhawk campaign setting has an unexplored west, so you could cut the crap with Orientel Adventures and but the Greyhawk continent next to Faerun's right? Mordenkainen could easily be incorporated in The Realms. Mordenkainen's main agenda on the Flanaess is to keep the balance. That agenda could easily take him into the Planes, which could be how or why he has arrived on Toril. Among other places as well. Mordenkainen could be *that* Wizard that takes no sides, but rather aides those that can aid him. There is a rumor that Bigby and Khelben know of, but dislike each other; that could be incorporated in the Realms as well. I think that since many spells are named after Greyhawk Spellcasters, another avenue of connection can be made: Mystra. Since she is a Goddess of Magic, she may have had Elminster seek out Mordenkainen and befriend him. Likewise, Mordenkainen-seeing so many possible students in the Realms would jump at the chance to come to Faerun. |
| Thrudjelmer06-21-03, 04:40 PM | Originally posted by The Simbul However in the 3rd edition D&D and Forgotten Realms Cosmology rules, such a meeting cannot and presumeably never actaully did happen, hence the reason why the above poster said Mordenkainen is not truly relevant to the realms. And this is why the absolute separation of the campaigns and completely new (useless) cosmology of the Forgotten Realms was a waste of the developers' time and our money. It would have been better to simply skip this whole notion and WotC could have accomplished the separation of the FR from standard D&D by simply putting a disclaimer on the back of each FR sourcebook that said something to the effect of: Forgotten Realms sourcebooks require only the PH, DMG, MM, and FRCS. |
| Telagaunt06-21-03, 05:21 PM | Mordenkainen is like the Elminster of the Greyhawk Campaign. He is a N male human Wizard 27; CR: 27. One reason his spells (and people like Otiluke, Bigby, etc..) have their named spells in the PHB is because they're big plane travelers. Mordenkainen traveled to Toril, had some influence, met El and The Simbul. He is only 80 years old but appears as a 40 year old. He doesn't fight for good or evil, rather for the underdog to balance the fight out. He is seen as an enemy from the following Greyhawk Campaign NPCs: Evard the Black, Terik and Rary. He also leads a powerful group of wizards called the Circle of Eight. But I'm just summarizing up his biography in the ELH :D |
| Selvarin06-21-03, 05:32 PM | But I prefer the Khelben comparison over Elminster since even Mordenkainen isn't as twinked. :D Anyhow...Khelben "the Younger" (a descendent of Khelben, I forget the exact relation) currently resides in Greyhawk. |
| Mirtek06-21-03, 06:11 PM | I think we all agree that seperating the cosmologies was one of the worst ideas ever. It all worked so much better when all campaign worlds were part of the same multiverse. |
| Maskanodel06-21-03, 07:22 PM | Originally posted by The Simbul " it was a meeting between Elminster, Mordenkainen, and Dalamar, three Archmages from separate campaign worlds, whom while discussing other subjects decided to share some of their more unique spells. " Is that Dalamar the Dark (I think thats his nickname) from Dragonlance? Has Raistlin Majere ever made an appearance in the Realms? |
| Straploknight06-21-03, 07:38 PM | Originally posted by Falkomur I know the Greyhawk campaign setting has an unexplored west, so you could cut the crap with Orientel Adventures and but the Greyhawk continent next to Faerun's right? Blasphemy... As for the campaign worlds cut off from each other, you can still use the shadow plane as a cross-roads of sorts if you want to go that route. |
| Dr_Draco06-22-03, 02:48 AM | Originally posted by The Simbul However in the 3rd edition D&D and Forgotten Realms Cosmology rules, such a meeting cannot and presumeably never actaully did happen, hence the reason why the above poster said Mordenkainen is not truly relevant to the realms. Unless you use the 2E module "Die, Vecna! Die!" That module explains the changes to the cosmology. :behold: Dr. D |
| Alzrius06-22-03, 03:02 AM | Originally posted by Selvarin But I prefer the Khelben comparison over Elminster since even Mordenkainen isn't as twinked. :D Anyhow...Khelben "the Younger" (a descendent of Khelben, I forget the exact relation) currently resides in Greyhawk. IIRC, Khelben "the Younger" is the grandson of Khelben "the Elder". KtY resides in Greyhawk, while KtE is currently pretending to be KtY back on Toril; presumably only a close few know the truth there. Originally posted by Mirtek I think we all agree that seperating the cosmologies was one of the worst ideas ever. It all worked so much better when all campaign worlds were part of the same multiverse. Agreed. The idea of giving the Realms a separate cosmology was born of WotC's (almost manic) desire to make sure that books didn't become cross-dependant. Now that they're beginning to relax in that regard, they're beginning to see that going too far in the other direction is just as bad (e.g. Deities & Demigods and the Epic Level Handbook). It seems like they're just going to continue on with their current course though, for better or for worse... |
| Falkomur06-22-03, 12:52 PM | In the Epic-level handbook Mordenkainen has a great staff :D and that minor artifact key...does anyone know how he got those? |
| Thrudjelmer06-22-03, 02:18 PM | Originally posted by Straploknight Blasphemy... As for the campaign worlds cut off from each other, you can still use the shadow plane as a cross-roads of sorts if you want to go that route. And you speak of blasphemy... If I want --and I do-- I could just assume they are just two different worlds in the same Prime Material plane, separated by the vastness of space. I could also assume that other worlds, such as Earth, still exist in the grand scheme of things in an alternate Prime which required travel to the Astral Plane to get to. What's the point of the Plane of Shadow, then? Two things: Its still a transitive plane, but used mostly by those who prefer to travel in the dark, and its the best way to get to Ravenloft! Past FR history ties into Ravenloft... and I'm not going to allow some idiotic ruling about the Realms being alone in the cosmology rewrite my own campaign history. |
| Selvarin06-22-03, 02:25 PM | Aha! Thanks for reminding me of that, Alzrius. Was that in an old Polyhedron issue or...?...I wish all the FR material from those magazines were in PDF format. As for the Silver Key of Portals, I found this in WG5 Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure : Silver Key of Portals: This item appears to be a regular-sized silver skeleton key (silver worth equals 33 gp). It is, in fact, a minor artifact that was found in an abandoned chapel to Dalt, the lesser god of portals and enclosures. (It is conjectured by Mordenkainen that this forgotten god led him to find the Key, for he has learned that Dalt is of a chaotic good alignment and gives generously to those he favors). It's possible that Gary Gygax has written more about this minor artifact in one of his articles for Dragon magazine. |
| Another Gnome06-22-03, 02:41 PM | I think we all agree that seperating the cosmologies was one of the worst ideas ever. It all worked so much better when all campaign worlds were part of the same multiverse. For the record - only in my opinion, of course - the only thing sillier than the "one cosmology, fits all" philosophy was the Spelljammer stuff... :behold: As long as those two things are kept out of the Realms, I won't complain about anything they do with the setting. |
| Falkomur06-22-03, 02:45 PM | A lot of replies and ideas to incorporate him in FR, thanks guys, but I had another question about Mordenkainen. Who gave him the epic staff of fiery power as described in the ELHB. Any ideas? |
| Alzrius06-22-03, 09:57 PM | Originally posted by Selvarin Aha! Thanks for reminding me of that, Alzrius. Was that in an old Polyhedron issue or...?...I wish all the FR material from those magazines were in PDF format. It would indeed be convenient if the old Polyhedron materials were put on a CD-ROM archive like the Dragon materials were...same for the old Dungeon materials also. I don't know the original source of the information, but I got the answers here: http://www.candlekeep.com/fr_faq.htm#_Toc16090566 |
| Ovim Ironstar07-05-03, 06:02 PM | Spelljammer has already played HEAVILY upon the history of Faerun as seen in the novel, Evermeet. The elves there had a fleet of 10(?) spelljammer ships due to, I belive, an a ship of the elven armada crashing upon the isle and one of the wizards or princes noticing. |
| Another Gnome07-05-03, 06:43 PM | Ovim, that's just what I meant. Spelljammers have had not a single word given in the new FR material, and Planescape is actively cut off from Realms cosmology (or the other way around if you prefer), and I truly hope no word of them will ever be there. I'm sure PS and SJ have their good sides, but they are effectively separate settings and should remain as such. It's obviously too late to do the separation in the old material, so I can only hope that the current edition keeps that stuff out of the Realms. * * * Though I have to admit the Wizards Three articles were quite funny. There, now this reply has almost talked about Mordenkainen. |
| Herr Doktor07-05-03, 07:17 PM | Originally posted by Another Gnome Ovim, that's just what I meant. Spelljammers have had not a single word given in the new FR material, and Planescape is actively cut off from Realms cosmology (or the other way around if you prefer), and I truly hope no word of them will ever be there. I'm sure PS and SJ have their good sides, but they are effectively separate settings and should remain as such. It's obviously too late to do the separation in the old material, so I can only hope that the current edition keeps that stuff out of the Realms. * * * Though I have to admit the Wizards Three articles were quite funny. There, now this reply has almost talked about Mordenkainen. A one-way portal to Sigil lies beneath the Abbey of the Sword, this is detailed in Faiths and Pantheons which is a 3E Forgotten Realms campaign accessory. I don't know too much about Planescape, but if I remember correctly Sigil has got something to do with it? I'd say then that, that is a definite link, and current. |
| Selvarin07-05-03, 07:26 PM | But it doesn't go into detail with how 'integrated' it all is with FR, at least to the extent it was previously. That, I think was more problematic. Not everyone wishes to think of the Forgotten Realms connecting to other settings/worlds in the way it once was, nor the ramifications. |
| Mirtek07-06-03, 05:08 AM | Originally posted by Selvarin But it doesn't go into detail with how 'integrated' it all is with FR, at least to the extent it was previously. That, I think was more problematic. Not everyone wishes to think of the Forgotten Realms connecting to other settings/worlds in the way it once was, nor the ramifications. The problem is: The FR are clustered with connections and references to the old ways. Even some FR designer sometime said that if they had realized how much of this stuff is in the realms earlier, they had thought twice about seperating the multiverse. Now the FR is filled with races and gods from worlds which no longer exists and portals to places which no longer exist and mages casting spells they shouldn't know. Elves come from annother world (teleportation/planeshift spell) Orcs come from annother world (gate) Beholders come from annother world (spell jammer) Tyr, Miellikki, Loviatar, Talona, Tyche come from annother world (stumbled upon Toril while searching for worshippers) Many spells in the PHB come from annother world (through planewalking mages) and that's just the top of the iceberg |
| Sarelle07-06-03, 05:32 AM | Originally posted by Mirtek Elves come from annother world (teleportation/planeshift spell) Orcs come from annother world (gate) Beholders come from annother world (spell jammer) Tyr, Miellikki, Loviatar, Talona, Tyche come from annother world (stumbled upon Toril while searching for worshippers) Many spells in the PHB come from annother world (through planewalking mages) and that's just the top of the iceberg I'll expand that a bit: -Elves come from annother world (teleportation/planeshift spell/portal) -Dwarves come from another world (portal?) -Orcs come from annother world (gate) -Half-orcs need orcs to exist -Beholders come from annother world (spelljammer) -Tyr, Mielikki, Loviatar, Talona, Tyche, and Orcus come from another world (stumbled upon Toril while searching for worshippers) -Many spells in the PHB come from another world - Mainly Greyhawk (through planewalking mages) -The whole Spelljamming campaign, refernces in novels and pieces of history based on -The meeting between El, Mordenkainen, Dalamar and the Simbul -The book Tymora's Luck where a kender comes to Toril -Numerous discrepencies about the change of planar structure (references to gods housing up in Celestia/Arborea/Acheron/the Outlands etc.) And many more Okay people keep adding to this list! :) |
| Another Gnome07-06-03, 05:35 AM | I have no issue with links to other cosmologies as such, as I think the Plane of Shadow functions as a "hyperspace" between cosmologies, and it'd not be too far-fetched to think a portal can link through the PoS without actually opening there. That makes nearly all the references to immigrants and visitors from other realities work pretty much the way they always have, only difference being that such travelers are actually from different multiverses and not simply from a neighboring "crystal sphere" or whatnot. However, something I don't think the Realms need is the arrogant Planescape attitude (that of the setting, not the players) or elven spaceships, just like there's no need for nuclear bombs and laser rifles. |
| Savras07-06-03, 07:30 AM | Kiaransalee is a drow necromancer from another world. The Mulahorandi and the Untheric people are from a diffrent world, brought by the Imaskarai. I had another one, but it fled my mind. If I'll recall, I'll post it. Savras |
| Alzrius07-06-03, 07:32 AM | Yeah! Let's keep this list growing! Here are a few more additions: -Elves come from annother world (teleportation/planeshift spell/portal) -Dwarves come from another world (portal?) -Orcs come from annother world (gate) -Half-orcs need orcs to exist -Beholders come from annother world (spelljammer) -Tyr, Mielikki, Loviatar, Talona, Tyche (now Tymora and Beshaba) Akadi, Grumbar, Istishia, Kossuth, and Orcus come from another world (stumbled upon Toril while searching for worshippers), as do the old Untheric and Mulhorandi pantheons, not to mention the demihuman and monstrous gods. -The peoples of Unther and Mulhorand are descended from people brought from another world via Imaskari portals. -Many spells in the PHB come from another world - Mainly Greyhawk (through planewalking mages) -The whole Spelljamming campaign, refernces in novels and pieces of history based on, such as two short stories in Realms of Magic. -The meeting between El, Mordenkainen, Dalamar and the Simbul -The books Finder's Bane, which partially takes place in Sigil, and Tymora's Luck, where a kender goes to Toril. -Numerous discrepencies about the change of planar structure (references to gods housing up in Celestia/Arborea/Acheron/the Outlands etc.) -Waukeen was rescued from the demon lord Graz'zt in the Abyss, thanks to adventurers who used the Infinite Staircase, a planar pathway. |
| Sarelle07-06-03, 07:48 AM | :D This is fun! Thanks Alzrius and Savras. Come on people keep adding to this list and making any additions/corrections needed. I've added half-elves, Kiaransalee, Khelben the Elder/Younger and a couple more. -Elves come from annother world (teleportation/planeshift/gate spell/portal). -Half-elves/Fey'ri need elves to exist. -Dwarves come from another world (teleportation/planeshift/gate spell/portal). -Orcs come from annother world (teleportation/planeshift/gate spell/portal). -Half-orcs/Tanarukk need orcs to exist. -Beholders come from another world (Spelljammer). -Tyr, Mielikki, Loviatar, Talona, Tyche (now Tymora and Beshaba), Akadi, Grumbar, Istishia, Kossuth, Kiaransalee (drow necromancer from another world) and Orcus come from other worlds (most stumbled upon Toril while searching for worshippers), as do the old Untheric and Mulhorandi pantheons, not to mention the demihuman and monstrous gods. -Corellon Larethian, Lolth, Garl Glittergold and Moradin's Greyhawk aspects/personalities/versions of. -The peoples of Unther and Mulhorand are descended from people brought from another world via Imaskari portals. -Many spells in the PHB come from another world - mainly Greyhawk (through planewalking mages). -The whole Spelljamming campaign, references in novels and pieces of history based on it, such as two short stories in Realms of Magic. -The meeting between Elminster, Mordenkainen, Dalamar and the Simbul. -The rivalry between Khelben and Bigby. -Khelben the Elder (of FR) being the grandfather of Khelben the Younger (who now resides in Greyhawk), as well as KtE imersonating KtY in Faerūn and the two occasionally visiting each other. -The books Finder's Bane, which partially takes place in Sigil, and Tymora's Luck, where a kender goes to Toril. -Numerous discrepencies about the change of planar structure (references to gods housing up in Celestia/Arborea/Acheron/the Outlands etc.) -Waukeen was rescued from the demon lord Graz'zt in the Abyss, thanks to adventurers who used the Infinite Staircase, a planar pathway. |
| GoodOlWillickers07-06-03, 11:57 AM | If you were playing in 2nd edition with all of the Planescape and Spelljammer stuff (which Wizards killed and took one big step to ruining the game) Mordenkainen's spells got to Farun by travelers through Sigil and Spelljammer pilots. Actually, there is an issue of Dungeon/Polyhedron that makes a 3e Spelljammer, but it's weak at best. Crystal spheres aren't even mentioned. Considering that they had to work with 3e, though, it was pretty good in that respect. Peace -Will |
| Savras07-06-03, 01:35 PM | Are you sure Grumbar, Istishia, Kossuth and Akadi are from a diffrent plane? BtW- are the gith ever mentioned? That's one, then. Also, everyone knows about the planespanning empire of the illithids, but I dunno if that counts. The Portal to Sigil in the abbey of the Sword (3e!). Savras |
| Faraer07-06-03, 02:02 PM | Well, Every one of 200 articles and dozens of game products by Ed (and many others) based on the framing fiction of information passed from a Realms source, made explicit in dozens of instances Vangerdahast and Mordenkainen both competed for the hand of a young extraplanar beauty Graz'zt in For Duty & Deity is a big crossover with Oerth (father of Iuz, etc.) Elminster and Khelben many times said to spend much of their time on other planes and worlds such as Oerth and Krynn Tamper Tencoin used to adventure with a Nehwon ghoul Gates to other worlds: Yulash, the Chasmleap Bridge, Cloak Wood, the Yuirwood, Weathercote Wood, Undermountain, Dhedluk, and several other places The fundamental premise and name of the Forgotten Realms, and the basis of high-level Realms campaigns as stated by Ed and implicit in several places. It being part of a multiverse is as much a basic principle of the Forgotten Realms as its quasimedieval setting and its grounding in 20th-century swords & sorcery. Mirtek, that's interesting if true about the designers not realizing the extent of the connections. Do you have a source you can refer us to? |
| Alzrius07-06-03, 02:29 PM | Originally posted by Savras Are you sure Grumbar, Istishia, Kossuth and Akadi are from a diffrent plane? They aren't native to Realmspace/Toril, if that's what you mean. Those four elemental gods are part of the Faerunian pantheon, but they originated there about as much as Tiamat did. They're elemental gods of the elemental planes, and have very little concern with Prime matters. They're also quite multispheric. BtW- are the gith ever mentioned? That's one, then. Also, everyone knows about the planespanning empire of the illithids, but I dunno if that counts. I can't think of anything specifically FR dealing with the gith at all... By the way, one more tie to another world: Gondegal, who once conquered Arabel, is still alive and well in the demi-plane of Ravenloft. In fact, add also in there the FR-RL crossover adventures Castle Spulzeer and The Forgotten Terror. |
| Ovim Ironstar07-07-03, 03:21 PM | Not to mention the novel; Elminster in Hell was based in the 3E time/powerframe and had a DIRECT portal to one of the many layers of 9 hells opening into Faerun directly which Mystra had to intervine directly to close and then all the powerful spell and swordswingers it brought into play to try and rescue him |
| Jaxian Redleaf07-08-03, 04:34 AM | I think it's cool to bring in other campaign looks just imagine the face on your players when you say: oh Mordenkainen walks into the room! (I did this one on my players, lets say they was a little confused after that) |
| avian tiefling07-08-03, 12:51 PM | in my experience, one of morenkainen's greatest contributions to ADnD is the spell Mordnekainen's sword. You know, the one that conjures a magical sword that levitites and attacks people. this spell is also mentioned in "Servant of the Shard," for anyone familiar to Salvatore's works. |
| Sarelle07-08-03, 04:51 PM | Okay I've created a new post, with updated info from the letest posts, for the Fr cosmology discrepencies list/discussion, as it is running off topic here. Click here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57419) to get to the new thread. |
| Mirtek07-08-03, 05:23 PM | Originally posted by Faraer Mirtek, that's interesting if true about the designers not realizing the extent of the connections. Do you have a source you can refer us to? As far as i recall that has been said in a thread with a topic similar to this thread. But i don't recall any exact source, sorry |