Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xae'an 06-24-03, 05:47 PM	I noticed that the FRCS is contradicting itself on the question about the most powerful arcane spellcaster. In the description of Shadowdale on page 139 it says that "if Elminster is not the most powerful mortal being in Faerun, it's not clear who is". But on the other hand in the description of the Seven Sisters it says that "the Simbul...is the most powerful wielder of arcane magic in Faerun..." Certainly it can be said that one is strictly more powerful than the other, since both have different qualities where they shine. Elminster has a greater selection of spells (the old sorcerer - wizard debate again...), while the Simbul has her supernatural abilities as e.g. shapechange and protection from spells. Wizards of the Coast could have avoided such a discussion altogether by not giving such titles to any character. Nevertheless I'd find it interessting to know what other people think about this topic.
Maskanodel 06-24-03, 08:32 PM	I think they said the Simbul was the most powerful arcane spellcaster in the world because even though Elminster is stronger then he is(more levels overall), she's still the most powefrul arcane spellcaster (more overall arcane levels). Hope this cleared it all up.
Kilamar 06-24-03, 09:10 PM	Originally posted by Maskanodel she's still the most powefrul arcane spellcaster (more overall arcane levels). That is when you neglect all the Uberspellcaster that sit under every second stone in the Realms. Kilamar
Dargoth 06-24-03, 09:49 PM	Actually its not the simbul or Elminster. Theres a wizard somewhere in the FR who still has access to 10th level wizard spells ( I cant remeber who it was...it may have been Larloch) there was a special exemption where this one wizard get still access the forbiden magic, it was in one of 2ed books so it may have changed.
endowhin 06-25-03, 03:22 AM	Possibly Szass Tam? -Endowhin
Chosen of Shar 06-25-03, 03:28 AM	Lord Shadow. Netherese Arcanist with a caster level of 35...
Alzrius 06-25-03, 03:47 AM	Originally posted by Chosen of Shar Lord Shadow. Netherese Arcanist with a caster level of 35... And what product is he detailed in?
NagisaKaworu 06-25-03, 08:19 AM	While there are still debates about this among members of the board, you can find High Prince Telemont Tanthul (well, his levels, that's all) in the Lords of Darkness accessory; the same book states he is the Lord Shadow of legend.
Alzrius 06-25-03, 10:53 AM	Ah, I get it. My thanks "Kaoru by the sea". ;)
Psionycx 06-25-03, 12:38 PM	Telemont has a whopping 35 levels, 10 of which are Shadow Adept and 5 are Archmage, so he's packing heat in a serious way. I don't understand the Simbul's stats anymore. As I understood it, Wizard and Sorceror levels don't stack (maybe I'm wrong about this). So technically she's a much lower-level spellcaster than she was in 2E (where she was a 30th level Wizard). However, Elminister seems to get more special powers every time I turn around, so I can see why he'd be the favorite.
PhilCW 06-25-03, 12:58 PM	One must not forget the Demilich Shoon packing in 2e 36 levels of pure necromancer goodness. Halaster Blackcloak is also a very powerful wizard.
Jin 06-25-03, 01:03 PM	I'll have to throw in my chips with Dargoth on this one. Larloch, who is now ONLY 32nd level after his 12 level nerf from Ed Greenwood's 2nd edition version, is one tough lich per his entry in LoD. Personally, I've kept him at his full former glory. Why on earth did they insist an making all the good guys so...good?
Savras 06-25-03, 01:16 PM	'Cause if not, a Wiz 1 with control over a nation could come in (and the Red Wizards power would rise like hell in this debate). I vote for Larloch and the Creeping Doom- a Black Dragon Great Wyrm (true name: Daurgothoth) who is also a Dracolich and a Wiz 20\Acm5, CR *49*. Sor caster level: 15, Wiz caster level: 25. All abilities of Great Black Wyrm Dracolich, many cool items (many Epic items...). Hoah! Savras P.S.: I think you might want to add Azuth to the list.
cwslyclgh 06-25-03, 01:23 PM	I would think that Mystra would be the most powerful arcane caster...
Savras 06-25-03, 01:33 PM	Hmmm. O.K. But if gods are out (including Azuth)? Savras
Maskanodel 06-25-03, 01:39 PM	Was Savras a mortal? If so, how did he reach divinity?
Baron Phylos 06-25-03, 01:44 PM	A member of the Twisted rune is higher level than Larloch Larloch is Wizard 20/ Epic12 (So Wizard 32) Rhangaun of the Twisted Rune is a Wizard 20/Acm5/Epic8 (so Wizard28/Acm5) For a total of 33 levels Other high powered twisted rune members weight in pretty high too Kartak Spellseer: Necromancer26/Archmage5 Priamon "Frostrune" Rakesk: Wizard 23/Archmage4 Shangalar The Black: Wizard22/Archmage5
evilrabbit101 06-25-03, 01:51 PM	out of curiosity... how many of these spell caster can cast epic level spells? and how many epic spells can they cast?
Savras 06-25-03, 02:18 PM	Originally posted by Maskanodel Was Savras a mortal? If so, how did he reach divinity? A good question. Savras was either a god, or a halruan diviner that went through divine ascension. His battles with Azuth occured either when Azuth was mortal or after his divine ascension. There is no answer about that. Irksome. Savras
Jin 06-25-03, 02:25 PM	Originally posted by Baron Phylos A member of the Twisted rune is higher level than Larloch But the 3ED write up on Larloch is quite amusing. His 26+ ioun stones more than make up for being down 1 level. As someone else asked about epic spells, he can cast 1 spell of levels 10 thru 21. I'm personally still going with Ed Greenwood's 44 total levels. (Wizard20/Archmage5/Epic19) He also still had access to 10th & above spell levels back then. Savras, very good call on the Creeping Doom... (Must think outside the humanoid box...)
Savras 06-25-03, 02:34 PM	Thanks Jin. If I were Creepy, I would cast Antimagic Field and charge any Wiz around. Savras
The Simbul 06-26-03, 02:35 AM	The Simbul is Faerun's most powerful Arcane Spellcaster. There is a difference between Levels and power. There is also difference between being the most powerful mortal being and being the most powerful wielder of Arcane Magic. Not all of Elminster's power as a character comes from his levels as a Wizard (a vast majority of it does but not all of it). For the record, having more raw character class levels does not make one inherently more "powerful". Quite frankly IMHO the powers from the Chosen of Mystra template outstrip any benefit someone like Telamont might reap from having 2-3 more character levels. As for The Simbul's 3rd edition "transformation", yes i do agree that a Sor20/Wiz10 is not appropriate. While that was techincally Min/Maxed under the FRCS's limited Epic advancement system, it is quite an irrelevant and erroneous character build when one introduces the Epic Level Handbook. A number of people on this board use our own revisions of Faerunian NPC's and almost everyone i have met has re-written her as a Sor30/Acm2 As for Epic Spells: Originally posted by evilrabbit101 out of curiosity... how many of these spell caster can cast epic level spells? and how many epic spells can they cast? Originally posted by Jin As someone else asked about epic spells, he can cast 1 spell of levels 10 thru 21. There is a HUGE difference between Epic Spells, and Spell Slots beyond level 9. Larloch has the pre-ELH FRCS version of Improved Spell Capacity, which allows him to add Metamagic Feats to a spell of 9th level or lower that would increase the spell's effective level beyond 9th. I.E. he can cast a Maximized Meteor Swarm or a Still/Silent Wish. Epic Spells are created via the rules in the Epic Level Handbook and require the Epic Spellcasting Feat, along with alot of Gold, XP, and Research Time. So far, only ONE Arcane spellcaster on Toril has the Epic Spellcasting feat and that is The Simbul Since we are bringing up 2nd edition material, it bears noting that the 2nd edition version of The Simbul would almost certainly wipe the floor with nearly any other 2nd edition non-Chosen of Mystra spellcaster in a matter of a few rounds. One only needs to read the description of Eye of Mystra from The Seven Sisters to attest to that little fact. Failing that she knew and was capable of casting any Wizard spell of 9th level or lower, had access to incredibly powerful spells that no other Mages did (one example: see the OLD version of The Simbul's Spell Trigger), could make virtually any save vs spell on a d20 roll higher than a 1 (and with more bonuses to spare), was immune to many of the often used 'no-saving throw' spells, could further ward herself with an almost unrestricted use of the Mantle spell, and had numerous other talents, tricks, and powers up her sleeve. It is rather unfair to introduce the logistics of a pre 3.0 Larloch without considering the power of other characters in the old D&D system. Fundamentally, there is a great rift between what is stated in a characters bio/description and how that is represented (or misrepresented) in their stats. It has been stated elsewhere that the people who wrote many of the NPC statistical write-ups were not the same people who wrote their biographical information. It is also somewhat of a problem when "iconic" characters are made mechanically weak in order to "reflect" the different aspects of the character, and to avoid "min/maxing", meanwhile the exact opposite approach is taken with newer Epic NPC's, apparently for reasons unknown to the gaming community. It also bears noting that while many of the other mentioned characters here have been around for thousands upon thousands of years (i.e. Netherese survivors) she has managed to equal them in sheer Experience levels in a matter of Centuries. In perhaps only 5 years she has gone from level 30 (1368 DR, 2nd edition) to level 32 (1372, DR 3rd edition). She is a Sorcerer, she is one of Mystra's Daughters, and one of Mystra's Chosen. One can hardly come up with a better set of criteria for Toril's "most powerful arcane caster" or for any mortal who could be more in-touch with the workings of the Weave. Nevertheless the of The Simbul, as a character, IS Faerun's most powerful Arcane Spellcaster, regardless if less-than-stellar number-crunching reflects this or not. P.S. Read Elminster in Hell
ysrgrathe 06-26-03, 08:33 AM	Mhhh... In my opinion, going by the books is a very bad move-in the books, silver fire from the chosen (4d12 dmg) kills anything instantly, just check the archwizards trilogy-beholders, phaerimm, illithids-now, i can't see any of these monsters dying from 4d12 (26 pts of dmg average). So it's very wrong to quote FR novels. Simbul as written in the ELH, is not very good-her wizard and sorcerer levels don't stack, so she is a mere lvl 22 caster. The chosen powers are good, but hardly awesome (apart from the whopping con bonus). Even in 2nd ed she paled compared to larloch (46th lvl?) As for 3rd ed.. all these really high lvl casters have been nerfed, and atm Lord Shadow, Telamont Tanthul, seems to be the highest caster level and highest HD character (on par with El). I think number of caster level is definitely an indication of power, and his shade template gives him a whopping SR of 46. simbul and elminster would have BIG problems beating that. Not to mention that his darkness spells are so hard to dispel (35 caster plus tenacious magic feat) he will never be robbed of darkness magic. Of course until we see his final stats, we cannot be sure. I have a feeling his stats will be relatively poor, because if they slap the number of items that larloch has (telamont is older than larloch after all, and he is netherese too) then telamont would be unstoppable. It also depends how one uses Mordenkainen's disjunction-it doesnt really clearly state that a caster level check is required. However, it does say 'ending the effect as a dispel magic spell does' That can be interpreted in many ways, but one interpretation is to allow it a caster lvl check(like dispel magic-tho without the cap), its only sensible-u aint gona see lvl 17 mages dispelling spells from lvl 30 casters after all. Now, if one does uses caster level checks for disjunction, then someone like larloch, rhangaun, and telamont have a huge advantage over someone like simbul and elminster, due to the higher caster levels. It just depends how one uses disjunction-maybe 3.5 will clarify it. Saying ' ill go with larloch's 2nd ed. stats, he is the most powerful' is erroneous, because he clearly isnt that powerful in 3rd ed. he is 32nd lvl and thats it. His main strength is his mighty magic items and his hordes of liches and vampires under his command. In the books, authors ignore stats and they just tell a story, plain and simple. It is rarely reflected in official stats. So i put my money on telamont personally, he is the highest level caster in 3rd edition so far. peace
Savras 06-26-03, 08:43 AM	I still think Tellie Tanthul (and the Simbul, for that matter) would be hard pressed against Creepy. He would just cast an Antimagic Field and kill 'em with his claws. And he is a Wiz 25\Sor 15, just in case. Might not be most powerful *in arcane magics*, but most powerful. Savras
ysrgrathe 06-26-03, 08:54 AM	True savras, but that can be said of any dragon-just slap an antimagic field and rip any caster a new orifice. Then again, epic spellcasting allows the destruction of antimagic fields with 100% success chance by using the destroy seed in the ELH. its easy enough to make it an counter antimagic effect with duration, so antimagic fields are supressed. At that point, you get a dead dragon. :) simbul has the epic spellcasting feat, she could do it-dunno about telamont, he aint got official stats. Simbul, It is very easy to say "*whine whine* simbul's stats are not right. lets change them to sor 30/acm 2" but the fact of the matter is, that is that version of her stats, which doesnt mean anything in the official rules done by WoTC. Don't get me wrong, Simbul was one of my fave in 2nd ed. and the change to sor30/acm2 is warranted, but that is not what she is. And since this is a vote, we HAVE to use the official stats, otherwise we can go on forever, each person saying 'but MY Larloch is lvl 46, he will rip all of them apart' etc etc.
The Simbul 06-26-03, 10:43 AM	Many of Toril's characters existed before Forgotten Realms was liscensed to TSR, and likewise many of them existed long before WoTC decided to butcher them in the FRCS, which was released BEFORE a viable Epic Level advancement system was created. Under the FRCS "Epic Sidebar" system, many of Faerun's iconic NPC's were desperately crammed and broken in order to fit them into the new ruleset, which at the time did not have a complete system for post level 20 characters. There is a fundamental difference between a "Character" and the Numbers and Abbreviations that are refereed to as their "stats". But since we are going by the stats, and since many of the 3.0 versions of these characters were written up prior to the ELH, then perhaps we should simply use the FRCS "Epic Sidebar" system for a moment to prove a point: The Simbul Sor20/Acm2/Wiz10 Larloch Wiz20/Epic12 Under that system all that Larloch recieved for his 12 "Epic" levels were addtional spell slots of each spell level 10-21. He did not recieve skill points, level depdendant benefits, or more importantly AN INCREASE IN HIS CASTER LEVEL. Under the FRCS system, a listing of "Epic" in a characters level/class block only gives them a single benefit from a very small list. A character would only gain Caster Levels if they increased in a +1 spellcasting class PrC. Therefore under the pre-ELH system The Simbul actually has a higher caster level than Larloch. In fact her 22 caster level was not at all an issue since most of the pre-ELH FRCS characters only had a caster level of about 25 or so. The only exeption was Telemont, whose level/class block was min/maxed visa ve that system, to give him a caster level of 35 (Wiz20/Sha10/Acm5). There was no reason to multiclass The Simbul, other than a designers min/maxed exploit in a poorly done Epic Advancement system. She had a "single minded drive to master more magic than anyone", and in 2nd ed AD&D, unlike many of her sisters who multiclassed across the board, she instead stuck to one profession (the Mage) and excelled in it Higher than any of her sisters or any of the Chosen. As for my arguement pertaining to 2nd edition spell battles, perhaps i should have elaborated: Eye of Mystra -Level 9 spell -Can only be cast by a Chosen -Dispels and banishes all active magical effects on the target -Dispels and banishes all permanent magical effects on the target -Dispels and banishes all "hanging" magical effects on the target -Dispels and banishes all enchantments on magic items possessed by the target -Strips the target of all of his/her spells per day -No saving Throw -No Magic Resistance roll Under that scenario an extra 14 spellcaster levels does not especially amount for much, i would never make an absolut-esque statement like that on these "flammable" message boards if i didnt have anything to back it up :) Oh and for the record I do use my own versions of Larloch, Telemont, Halaster, Elminster, and their statistical write-ups see just as much favorable attention as The Simbul. There are numerous reasons for any DM to re-write many of the "official" NPCS in the Epic Level Handbook Appendix, the primary reason being that Elminster is the ONLY ONE who was completely revised in terms of feats, skills, ability score adjustments, saving throws, and the like. The rest of the characters who already had write-ups in the FRCS were effectively a poor cut & paste job whose only real change was digustingly poor artwork and an Epic Feat or two.
ysrgrathe 06-26-03, 11:28 AM	The example of the eye of mystra spell just shows how infinitely superior 3rd edition is compared to previous editions (we are playing 3rd ed. here, right?). No more 'lets create ridiculous spells because we like it that way' thing.That spell would be well into the epic nowadays, and i'm glad its gone, because it reeks of munchkin. If we go back to second edition, there are several examples of monstrous spells in the 'Secrets of the Magister' too. Besides, now that Shar is the goddess of the shadow weave, she can bestow similar power spells to her major servitors. 'Eye of Shar' *grin* My point is, we *have* to agree to something-namely, what is the reference point? Is it the novels? Is it 2nd edition? is it 3rd edition? going by the novels: living:simbul (but larloch never appears much, so its difficult to say, and telamont never really does much in the return of the archwizards, so hard to tell) dead:karsus going by 2nd ed-karsus (overall) else simbul going by 3rd ed.-telamont going by my games:telamont (i am loathe to just change chars completely from the official rules, no matter how badly done-if they were meant to be better, greenwood would have said 'OI! NO!') Maybe if we all put these four different categories it would clarify things on who votes what :)
Lilian The Lady Ghost 06-26-03, 02:43 PM	I hope someone will manage to grow his wizard to 60th level, so he will say he's the strongest. And he'll be right!!! :P I have a question: what do you mean by the most powerul arcane spellcaster? If you intend the higher caster level then there should be no discussion, if you mean the one who will win over anyone, then there should be no discussion (Isn't Elminster the "favourite" of the creator of the world? read AO). Period. _____ Ehm, I was surely sarcastic but I meant no real offense :angel:
Jeiroth 06-26-03, 03:44 PM	So far, only ONE Arcane spellcaster on Toril has the Epic Spellcasting feat and that is The Simbul Eh? How about them handfuls o High Mages, they all have epic spellcasting. Personally, I would not bet against the Srinshee (level 30 wiz + unknown levels in High Mage) in any spell battle. Especially in 2e with that 10th level spell of hers and the Ruler's Blade (Free Highmagic). Mythanthors spell that disrupts all magical barriers works wonders against magical protections too. And you can be sure she knew that spell as well.
ysrgrathe 06-26-03, 03:52 PM	Actually the most powerful of them all is....yes, you got it-Telagaunt! he is CR 49 after all! and is soo mighty he is able to talk to us on the forums! :) then again simbul can too *grin*
Savras 06-26-03, 04:08 PM	Daurgothoth has the same CR, and he would rip Telagaunt (I think you might have meant Telamont). Anyway, we must first clarify what we mean by most powerful- can win the battle? Then Larloch, with his *army* of *liches and Wiz vampires* rules supreme (most of them are Nehtrese, and they are at *least* 15th level, few millenia old, taught by Larloch himself...). So, what is powerful? Savras P.S.: Daurgothoth wins anyway :P
ysrgrathe 06-26-03, 04:13 PM	hehehe no i did mean telagaunt..as in one of the members who posts on these boards . It was a joke :) Yeh daurgothoth is powerful, but i think you'll find that if converted to 3rd edition, he will have sorcerer levels, not wizard levles, to add to his caster level until he reaches 25th caster level. We need his official 3rd ed. stats.
Maskanodel 06-26-03, 04:38 PM	Those 25 levels of Wizards are his official 3e stats. You can find them here. (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=fr/fx20020327wn)
ysrgrathe 06-26-03, 04:40 PM	yay thx for the help, any other famous/powerful npcs they released stats for that i dont know about? (in web enhancements etc.)
Jeiroth 06-26-03, 04:59 PM	Daurgothoth would get owned by any epic casting mage. Any Epic spell would easily punch through his antimagic field.
Maskanodel 06-26-03, 05:06 PM	Originally posted by ysrgrathe yay thx for the help, any other famous/powerful npcs they released stats for that i dont know about? (in web enhancements etc.) Not an archmage, but Cadderly Bonaduce was released here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/fr/deneir)
The Simbul 06-26-03, 05:16 PM	Originally posted by Jeiroth Eh? How about them handfuls o High Mages, they all have epic spellcasting. The "thus far" in my original post was referring NPC's printed thus far, it was not in reference to Epic Spellcasters who have or have not emerged during Toril's timeline. Unless Races of Faerun has a stat-write up for Srinshee or any other noteworthy NPC High Mages, then I am sorry to say that The Simbul is the only Arcane Spellcasting NPC to have the Epic Spellcasting feat. Until WoTC releases statistical NPC write-ups for Faerunian characters using Epic Level Handbook rules aside from those in the ELH appendix, then that is simply the sad truth.
Psionycx 06-26-03, 06:00 PM	I also have to say that I don't especially agree with the decision to make the Simbul a Sorceror. While I understand that there would have been some desire to assign the newly-created class to some at least one major character, it doesn't really fit her historical profile. Allasra has always been shown as being fascinated by the acquisition of magical lore, a trait far more common to wizards than to sorcerors, who tend to create their own magical systems. Also, as we all know, what sorcerors gain in freedom to spellcast, they lose in versatility. Their spell slots are fixed, which would prevent even the Simbul from ever learning a truly wide range of spells compared to her peers.
Xae'an 06-26-03, 07:51 PM	Even though some elven high mages might have epic spellcasting, they are NOT chosen of Mystra, which IMHO makes them less powerful then the Simbul, even though they might have a higher caster level. Propably the elves would not have retreated to Evermeet if they had some spellcasters as powerful as the Simbul. As far as the Netherese wizards go, I can't tell as I do not have any stats for them (I started with 3E). I didn't want to start any number-crunching, if I did, sorry for it. I know that power can not only be measured in mere levels but speaking of levels I don't think Elminster's additional non-arcane-spellcaster-levels (fighter1/rogue2/cleric3) signicficantly add to his over all power, they merely reflect his life before he became the mighty mage he is now - they help to define his personality, nothing more (I just find the thought of him running out of spells and fighting a dragon with his sword ridiculous). So I do think that "most powerful wielder of arcane magic" and "most powerful mortal being" are effectivly the same. Elminster is the one individual always mentioned first when it comes to powerful wizards, therefore e.g. the "Elminster speaks" series. He is on the first page of the FRCS and in the novels he is Mystra's "favorite" chosen. Yet he often appears rather as a wise old sage than as somebody who single-handedly defeats entire armies. The Simbul on the other hand does not have a wide range of spells and is therefore less versatile (She can still shapechange into a great wyrm gold dragon and deal with her enemies in that form anyway...). Unfortunatly I don't know how the Simbul is described in the novels (I have already ordered Silverfall, but I don't exect to get it within the next few months). BTW, look at Wyrms of the North and see the description of Balagos, the paragraph about his fate somehow indicates that the Simbul seems to be more powerful than El, since he needed a cabal of wizards while she could deal with the wyrm alone.
Sculdar 06-27-03, 05:18 AM	Shoon VII in 2ed was a Lvl 36 necro...... But Larloch was a Level 46 Magician...and the most powerful character i can remember....sadly they reduced him to a "minor" power. So Today i thin it would be Lord Shadow perhaps
Masakado 06-27-03, 08:19 AM	Originally posted by Sculdar Shoon VII in 2ed was a Lvl 36 necro...... But Larloch was a Level 46 Magician...and the most powerful character i can remember....sadly they reduced him to a "minor" power. So Today i thin it would be Lord Shadow perhaps I don't think they reduced Larloch. His stats on paper are very impressive. One thing about level stacking in 2ed and 1ed. It was more or less done to show that there are clearly some entities that PC's shouldn't mess with. However, you still had your devoted few who thought, "I can't wait until my party is all 40th level, so's we can take down Larloch." :rolleyes: I love the threads that have, "So after we killed Ssass Tam," in them. :)
Neblin of the Green 06-27-03, 09:29 AM	Originally posted by Psionycx I also have to say that I don't especially agree with the decision to make the Simbul a Sorceror. While I understand that there would have been some desire to assign the newly-created class to some at least one major character, it doesn't really fit her historical profile. I would actually attempt to differ on that statement. Considering her heritage, the levels of sorcerer show the inherant flow of the weave in her being. So if I'd have to interpret her character statistics, I would have started in saying that as she was developing and her major attention was on holding of the Red Wizards and soothing the hassles of running Aglarond, she was leveling up in Sorcerer. It was only once this tenuous stability was formed was she able to dedicate herself to her passion - discovering and building a wealth of arcane power. In come the ten level of wizard. The archmage levels are given, due to her total packing setup. Other mages especially the likes of Elminster, and this opinion is based on a long-ago-reading of Making of a Mage, never had the base talent and needing coaching and developement. Thus single-minded wizard levels. --- Lets see how that gets torn apart ----
Savras 06-27-03, 03:40 PM	Originally posted by ysrgrathe hehehe no i did mean telagaunt..as in one of the members who posts on these boards . It was a joke :) Duh! :embarrass Originally posted by Jeiroth Daurgothoth would get owned by any epic casting mage. Any Epic spell would easily punch through his antimagic field. Errr... Really? Mayhap thou forgets he is a GREAT BLACK WYRM with 20 levels of Wiz and 5 of Archmage, in addition to his inherent 15 levels of Sor, his Dracolich abilities and natural weapons. He is not CR 49 for no reason, you know. But I digress. As another powerful mage I'll throw in Zalathorm, King of Halruaa (Div 19\Loremaster10). He knows you come. And he (and his court) are prepared. Savras
Telagaunt 06-27-03, 05:39 PM	Originally posted by ysrgrathe Actually the most powerful of them all is....yes, you got it-Telagaunt! he is CR 49 after all! and is soo mighty he is able to talk to us on the forums! :) then again simbul can too *grin* Oh I'm not that powerful :embarrass :smirk: Plus, my make below has a spellcaster level (for wizard) of only 22. However I do I have an actual revised self pc who's CR is only 39 :smirk:
Telagaunt 06-27-03, 05:49 PM	For my two cents on the topic.. For strictly CR wise, the two most powerful mages (mortals actually) that I've seen are Elminster and Telamont who are of equal CR. El- Ftr 1, Rog 2, Clr 3, Wiz 24, Acm 5 CR: 39 Telamont- Wiz 20, Acm 5, Sha 20 CR: 39 (I do wonder if they'll change his levels to Wiz 10, Sha 20 though because of the epic PrC now available) But I think Simbul is more powerful than Elminster. Note that the FRCS says she's the most powerful arcane spellwielder. She has sorcerer levels (and note she does use wish spells to change the spells she knows), and I'm not going to get into that whole which class is better, but she does have a crap load of useful supernatural abilities and being a Wiz 10 still gives you access to plentiful spells. I think it's wrong that she only has 2 levels of Acm also... I think she's definately a level 5 Archmage but I guess they didn't want her CR as high as good ol' El :rolleyes: Although Larloch's stats are in the LoD I much rather see him revised because of the Epic rule change, see the kind of epic feats, and stuff he'll have. Although I think he'll have a lot of Improved Spellcaster levels. And he's also the only mortal I've seen with an Intelligence score higher than Elminster! :D
Kilamar 06-27-03, 07:06 PM	CR wise Shoon VII has 36 levels of Arcane Spellcaster +2 CR for the Lich Template +6 CR for the Demi-Lich Template for a nice and easy CR 44. Kilamar
Savras 06-27-03, 07:20 PM	Originally posted by Kilamar CR wise Shoon VII has 36 levels of Arcane Spellcaster +2 CR for the Lich Template +6 CR for the Demi-Lich Template for a nice and easy CR 44. Kilamar Wrong- these are *2e* stats, and should be revised. In addition, I do not think there is a Wizards of the Coast "Demi-Lich Template", so that's off, too. And of course, my pet dragon, Creepy, is CR 49. So there! http://www.geocities.com/sirgrimsage/Smilies/Savrasrolleyes.txt http://www.geocities.com/sarlis4fr/3eyewink.txt http://www.geocities.com/sarlis4fr/3eye_grin.txt Savras
Garnet Hardeon 06-27-03, 08:36 PM	I was just wondering (since the topic's on who's the most powerful/who are among the most powerful mages in Toril), how precisely does Queen Amlaruil of Evermeet figure into this? Theoretically I guess, since I have yet to encounter her stats for 3rd Ed. But considering from the fiction (notably Elaine Cunningham's Evermeet novel), she's a Chosen of the Seldarine (one assumes the entirety of the Elven Pantheon), wields Elven High Magic freely, has the resources of the People and is considered to be one of her realm's most powerful defenses. Or is there some product out that I just don't know about? Just asking.
Savras 06-27-03, 08:40 PM	Originally posted by Garnet Hardeon I was just wondering (since the topic's on who's the most powerful/who are among the most powerful mages in Toril), how precisely does Queen Amlaruil of Evermeet figure into this? Theoretically I guess, since I have yet to encounter her stats for 3rd Ed. But considering from the fiction (notably Elaine Cunningham's Evermeet novel), she's a Chosen of the Seldarine (one assumes the entirety of the Elven Pantheon), wields Elven High Magic freely, has the resources of the People and is considered to be one of her realm's most powerful defenses. Or is there some product out that I just don't know about? Just asking. And Creepy goes down. Drat! How could I forget her? *grumbles off* Savras
Kilamar 06-28-03, 08:35 PM	Originally posted by Savras Wrong- these are *2e* stats, and should be revised. In addition, I do not think there is a Wizards of the Coast "Demi-Lich Template", so that's off, too. As long as it is not revised, we have to use what we got. The Template can be found in the ELH. Kilamar
Gadodel 06-28-03, 08:46 PM	Before I could vote-wisely(!), I would have to see complete write ups of many of the Spellcasters that have been mentioned and few that have yet to be mentioned. I would want to go off of more than just Class(es)/PrC's and the levels held in same. I would need to see Feats, Skills (and their ranks), Magical Items at the character's disposal, Spelllists etc. I would also have to see their Cohorts and Strongholds-which EVERY smart Spellcaster would surely use. I would also want to see biographies so that I might get an idea of Personality and Tactics. However, since a lot of this is not available; I will vote just for fun! My vote, based on "guesswork" of said above criteria; as to whom the most powerful spellcaster would be-goes to: Halaster He equal to many of those named already, but also has the most dangerous stronghold any smart wizard could want!!!
Talint Moonstar 06-29-03, 02:28 PM	Just an afterthought on the Creeping Doom vs. the High Prince argument. If one includes abilities listed in the novels: Spoiler from the Return of the Archwizards: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . The High Prince has some ability that completely dominates Malygris (Telamont actually made Malygris bow before him) , the blue dracolich that rules over the other blue dragons of the Anauroch, through sheer willpower. Therefore, it only stands to reason Telamont could do the same with the Creeping Doom. He might have to work a little harder at whatever he does, but it still might be possible. But, if one doesn't include the novels. One Antimagic field and Telamont is dragon bait.:angel: Maintaining the original argument of the most powerfull spell caster: how are you defining "power." Some spellcasters rule their own kingdoms: The High Prince, The Simbol, Halaster (to a certain degree). If the kingdoms and all of its resources are included and brought to bear, I think the High Prince would come out on top. The Red Wizards are too chaotic to unite against a common foe. They might put up that kind of front, but each Zulkir would try to expand his own power in the process, decaying the united front from beneath.
Lilian The Lady Ghost 06-29-03, 03:17 PM	Dracoliches, being undead, are immune to mental effects, so Creeping Doom (what a funny name! sounds like a bard-teasing nickname) wouldn't suffer any kind of mental manipolation. Being undead makes him my favourite in this contest. Still I'm impartial (how can I be impartial and prefer someone? well a neutral being can do this and much more :P )
Talint Moonstar 06-29-03, 03:32 PM	Good point. I don't know how Telamont would be able to do this (this could be an interesting campaign idea). How is this Archmage able to completely bend this undead and immensely powerful being to do his bidding? Maybe he has some kind of connection with the cleric/ undead relationship, thus allowing him to exert his will. Cult of the Dragon mages are also able to control dracolich with their amulets ( I forget what they are actually called). Maybe Telamont has some sort of ability that is comparable. He is, after all, a mage on par with, if not surpassing, Sammaster. :fight!:
Savras 06-29-03, 03:56 PM	Mages from the Cult do not *control*, at most they persuade. Remember- the true *rulers* of Faerūn are the Dead Dragons, and no mortal can command them. Hmmm, demilich... I still like Creepy. Anyway, resaurce-wise, Larloch wins- he have a palace better gaurded than Halaster's, an army of liches and vampires, most date back to Netheril's day, all "Archmages" (not the class, just powerful wizards) and a huge amount of lesser undead. He needn't worry about food supply (the vampires can eat the enemy), about defending his citizens (hasn't got any) and if the need arises, he'll just slaughter a country and raise them as an undead army or get Szass-Tam do the job, 'cause, if I remember correctly, Szass-Tam likes to do favours to Larloch, and mayhap owes him one. Anyway, he would propably get a cool spell devised by Larloch for his trouble. Savras
The Simbul 06-29-03, 04:28 PM	The problem that faces Daurgothoth (in regards to Arcane Spellcasting) is fundamentally the same that faces The Simbul...in that Wizard/Sorcerer levels do not stack in terms of Caster Level Checks. His highest caster level is 25, with an additional +1 to caster level checks via Spellpower +1. Since Telemont is one of the few min/maxed characters in 3rd edition i think i will use him as an example. I do recall someone here mentioning Telemont's spell resistance was somewhere around 49. In terms of spellcasting Daurgothoth has a Wizard caster level of 25, +1 to checks via Spellpower +1, and +2 to SR checks via Spell Penetration. That gives him a 1d20+28 to beat a SR of 49, even on the best possible roll he still falls short by one point. Now the reason i bring up Telemont is because unlike many of the spellcasters listed here (Elminster, The Simbul, Halaster, Larloch) he does NOT draw upon Mystra's Weave. Although Shar's weave is by no means superior, it does give it's wielders the luxury of casting within the confines of a Dead Magic area. It is well presumed by his statistical and biographical entry that Daurgothoth draws upon Mystra's weave for his spells, powers, and supernatural abilities, hence the reason that the Chosen do not interfere with him is because as stated in his entry: "...powerful figures such as Elminster, Khelben, Laeral, and Alustriel. These archmages will not act or speak out against him, because the magical experimentation and advances Daurgothoth is making are precisely the sort of thing Divine Mystra encourages so that magic will continue to grow." It has been mentioned that if Daurgothoth were to cast an AMF and proceed to melee a spellcasting opponent, he could easily overcome them. Despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of his powers (spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural effects) are inhibited by the Antimagic Field. So lets assume Telemont and Daurgothoth decide to have a falling out. Even if the Shade Prince did not have Epic Spellcasting, he (or any other Archmage) still could easily research a non-epic spell that destroys or even dispells Antimagic Fields. But even without that, chances are of all the Shades, Telemont is most likely to be able to get his hands upon a Shimmaryn, or other device which holds and carries a Dead Magic area. However unlike Daurgothoth's tactic of using an Antimagic Field to gain a melee advantage, Telemonts use of the Shimmaryn gives him a far more potent Magical advantage, since all of Daurgothoth's spells, spell abilities, and supernatural powers can be rendered useless while Telemont still has free reign and use of his own. He could easily cast a spell to reflect, absorb or ward against Daurgothoth's physical attacks, while his spells breach Daurgothoth's reduced magical defenses (SR 31 is about all he can count on for protection at this point). Unlike Mystra's Chosen, who have the ability to permanently destroy Dead Magic areas via Silverfire, Daurgothoth has very little at his disposal to combat such an unfair tactic.
The Simbul 06-29-03, 04:34 PM	P.S. Daurgothoth's Bonemelt spell is virtually a complete rip-off of The Simbul's Skeletal Deliquescence. If nothing else, the Gods of Magic should slap him for blatant plagiarism. :behold::behold::behold:
Savras 06-29-03, 04:52 PM	Originally posted by The Simbul P.S. Daurgothoth's Bonemelt spell is virtually a complete rip-off of The Simbul's Skeletal Deliquescence. If nothing else, the Gods of Magic should slap him for blatant plagiarism. :behold::behold::behold: Actually, as he is *far* older than the Simbul I think it went the other way around. You stole his spell! Thief! Thief! Savras
The Simbul 06-29-03, 06:10 PM	Originally posted by Talint Moonstar Maintaining the original argument of the most powerfull spell caster: how are you defining "power." Some spellcasters rule their own kingdoms: The High Prince, The Simbol, Halaster (to a certain degree). If the kingdoms and all of its resources are included and brought to bear, I think the High Prince would come out on top. The Red Wizards are too chaotic to unite against a common foe. They might put up that kind of front, but each Zulkir would try to expand his own power in the process, decaying the united front from beneath. When you get into the realm of "who will come to the aid of whom in a spell battle " is when this discussion really goes out of the window: Larloch has vast armies of Vampires, Liches, and Archmages. Telemont has the entire City of Shade at his command Halaster does have all of Undermountain to take refuge in Szass Tam (...rofl :bored: ) MIGHT unite a small part of Thay beneath him (of course the day Red Wizards become loyal to anything other than their own greed and incompetence, is the day that Spellfire Channelling Ewoks with +35 Vorpal Longswords fall from the sky) All of the above are impressive allies and add a large amount of detail and depth to the discussion... but Elminster has MYSTRA (and to a slightly lesser degree so does The Simbul, Khelben, and the others). Not to mention his vast number of other allies spread far and wide across Toril. Personally I would put the Lady of Mysteries above and beyond any of the afforementioned allies, followers, or cohorts of Faerun's other Archmages. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/fp_gallery/fp1/Mystra_symbol.jpg
Mirtek 06-30-03, 06:43 AM	Originally posted by evilrabbit101 out of curiosity... how many of these spell caster can cast epic level spells? and how many epic spells can they cast? No one fo them can cast epic level spells. The Simbul is the only one who has the epic spellcasting feat, but even she doesn'Ät know any epic spell
ysrgrathe 06-30-03, 08:35 AM	The problem that faces Daurgothoth (in regards to Arcane Spellcasting) is fundamentally the same that faces The Simbul...in that Wizard/Sorcerer levels do not stack in terms of Caster Level Checks. His highest caster level is 25, with an additional +1 to caster level checks via Spellpower +1. Well actually, in the official stats, the 5 levels of archmage that daurgothoth has add up to his 15 sorcerer levles, which allows him to cast 9th lvl sorcerer and wizard spells from both classes, so he is effectively a sor 20/wiz 20. I couldnt quite figure out why he had 9th lvl sor spells too, then I put 2 and 2 together :). Until we get revised ELH stats (or basic stats altogether) for larloch, telamont, etc etc, it is a matter of wild debate on who is the most powerful. Even then there will be a great deal of debate. The chosen have mystra as their major ally, so, as simbul says, you can't really beat that. But, Shade and its denizens are the most potent force at shar's disposal, and she will interfere if mystra decides to put up an appearance. So as far as allies are concerned, shade and the chosen are equally matched (except shade can hundreds of high lvl caster-250 shade arcanists lvl 15+) as well as the princes (cr 22-35, excluding telamont). Even the chosen would be hard pressed to overcome that-which is what the return of shade is all about-something that the chosen can't just eliminate out of hand. Since when did we decide to turn ,the most powerful arcane spellcaster, into 'who has the best allies' ? :P Ah and welcome to this thread telagaunt, was wondering when you would make your appearance!
Talint Moonstar 06-30-03, 02:41 PM	I took the original reason of this thread to be "who is the powerful spellcaster in the Realms." However, "powerful" can be interpreted in different ways. I believe the ability to summon aid or the best uses of one's resources (even if that resource happens to be a kingdom, or even a god) is a characteristic of one's power. Now this could easily develop to a good guys vs. bad guys epic war, so let's say the most powerful, one on one, if they just happened to encounter one another in the wilderness, and not outfitted to blast a certain being out of existance. With the final round pitting the Simbul, Elminster, Larloch, Telamont, the Creeping Doom, or Halaster, I think they are all pretty much on par with one another, so I guess it would just fall to the fates, the roll of the dice. :D
Prince Forge Of Avalon 07-01-03, 01:32 AM	You know its funny, if you wait around long enough ( say 1 year or so) the threads tend to repeat themselves. As this topic has waged for a long times on the boards, everyone tends to vote for thier particular favorite. Now the only mistake that caught my eye while reading this thread is the fact that the Srinshee ( at least to all appearances according to El in Hell) is a Chosen of Mystra, and if that is the case, I would have to vote for her, even thought there are no 3.5 ed stats for her that i know off. But off course she is one of my FAVORITES!
Slaygar 07-01-03, 03:54 PM	Sorry, but for my choice of the most powerful arcane caster I choose Felgolos "The flying mistfortune". He casts as a 14 level sorc right now, as a Juvinile bronze dragon. Give him as much time as the symbul and he will wipe the floor with everyone!
Rysellan 07-01-03, 04:48 PM	I believe that the Srinshee (in 2nd Ed. a 30th level Elven High Mage) is not detailed or included in 3E because of the fact that she's dead. To the best of my knowledge, she disappeared after claiming the Ruler's Blade following the Coronal's death.
Telagaunt 07-01-03, 09:16 PM	Originally posted by ysrgrathe Ah and welcome to this thread telagaunt, was wondering when you would make your appearance! Well, if it weren't for a freind of mine I probably wouldn't have seen it. I might have seen the thread about and decided to click it, but who knows ;) :smirk: On pg2 some people talk about a Chosen of the Seldarine.. Who is this elven girl? Is there an actual template for this?
Kuje31 07-01-03, 09:29 PM	Originally posted by Rysellan I believe that the Srinshee (in 2nd Ed. a 30th level Elven High Mage) is not detailed or included in 3E because of the fact that she's dead. To the best of my knowledge, she disappeared after claiming the Ruler's Blade following the Coronal's death. She's not dead. She shows up in El in Hell and might also be in El's Daughter. We shall see.
Alzrius 07-02-03, 01:01 AM	Originally posted by Telagaunt On pg2 some people talk about a Chosen of the Seldarine.. Who is this elven girl? Is there an actual template for this? For a list of all the canon Chosen so far (and no, most of them don't have a template made for them), go here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=525776#post525776
Garnet Hardeon 07-02-03, 07:31 AM	(I'm getting this info out of inferring from sources such as E. Cunningham's "Evermeet". Spoilers below for those who haven't read the novel.) As mentioned in the second page, Queen Amlaruil of Evermeet is a Chosen of the Seldarine; her daughter Ilyana is one as well. Ilyana though, recently died in battle to protect Corellon's Grove from Malar's Elf-Eater. The Chosen of the Seldarine have exhibited some powers, notably the ability to cast Elven High Magic at no penalty; a noticeable lack of aging and high vitality (which, for an elf, is extremely pronounced, given their long life spans), the ability to coalesce faith magic (as Ilyana demonstrated in creating a minor goddess form to battle the Elf-Eater), mimicking some clerical spells (such as Speak with Dead, etc...) and have demonstrated a profound connection to their deities. Theyhave also shared some of the benefits of their Chosen status with lovers. Zaor, King of Evermeet, was summarily affected to share some of his wife's gods-given vitality. I presume that the Chosen draw their strength directly from their gods. When in her deities' home plane (Arvandor), Amlaruil was able to create an illusion effective enough to deceive the Elf-Eater to choosing new targets. The targets affected? Lolth and Malar. That she can get past the SR of opposing gods at full power is an indicator of rather strong magical ability. I personally feel Amlaruil kicks ass. :)
Alzrius 07-03-03, 01:07 AM	Originally posted by Garnet Hardeon As mentioned in the second page, Queen Amlaruil of Evermeet is a Chosen of the Seldarine; her daughter Ilyana is one as well. Ilyana though, recently died in battle to protect Corellon's Grove from Malar's Elf-Eater. Added these two to the list of the Chosen, above.
Dungeon_Master 07-03-03, 05:12 PM	Tell me if I get annoying with this, ok? I'm sorry, but anyone who played the game can and will tell you that the novels were wrong on multiple points. Imoen should have been in the first book. She grew up in CandleKeep with (insert your characters name here). Khalid did NOT beat Jahiera (IMHO, she was more likely to beat him;) ). Also, if Abdel ascended to godhood in the books (I dont think this is the best ending, personally), why is there no "Abdel" listed in the diety section of the FRCS?:smirk: Once again, if this is annoying, please do tell me. Also, why doesn't it seem like the writer acctually PLAYED the game? Maybe its best if this is left out of FR history though. Maybe a nice adventure you build a campaign around, sort of like "Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil", would be better for this... Just my random thought.
Kuje31 07-03-03, 05:54 PM	Originally posted by Dungeon_Master Tell me if I get annoying with this, ok? I'm sorry, but anyone who played the game can and will tell you that the novels were wrong on multiple points. Imoen should have been in the first book. She grew up in CandleKeep with (insert your characters name here). Khalid did NOT beat Jahiera (IMHO, she was more likely to beat him;) ). Also, if Abdel ascended to godhood in the books (I dont think this is the best ending, personally), why is there no "Abdel" listed in the diety section of the FRCS?:smirk: Once again, if this is annoying, please do tell me. Also, why doesn't it seem like the writer acctually PLAYED the game? Maybe its best if this is left out of FR history though. Maybe a nice adventure you build a campaign around, sort of like "Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil", would be better for this... Just my random thought. Because he didnt ascend. So there's no reason to list him as a god in the 3e books. He is just a normal adventurer now, since Bhaal's blood was removed from him. Most of the characters in the novels died also. I dont care what the game says. Yes I know that the games are different, however, the novels and the sourcebook are what is used for canon. The games are not, and so there are going to be differences between the two. It is the same as the game Pool of Radiance: Attack on Myth Drannor. The novel is different then the game, as is the modual, so again the modual and the novel are canon, the game is not. Or even the old games for the Pool of Series. Alias is only a npc in the old Curse of the Azure bonds games. She is not a character you can control in the game. Or even the characters from the other Pools Of novels, they don't even appear in the game. Abdel doesn't even exist in the game, but he does in the novels. So again, novels and sourcebooks based on the games are canon, they games themselves are not.
Dungeon_Master 07-03-03, 11:46 PM	Kuje, no offense, but I'd like to question if you've played the games before you say the novels are canon, personally. IMHO, I'm kind of tired of people treating the novels like holy writ.:smirk: The novelists are not the game designers, and I personally think they should not be entrusted with the fate of the sourcebooks. Speaking of sourcebooks, you said something about a sourcebook on the events chronicled in BG. I haven't seen one for 3rd edition yet. Like I said, a module for this could be even better than putting it in as "history".... Anyhow, I'll end this post with this: Before novelizing an FR PC game (or any computor game), maybe it would be best to have someone write it who has played the game and will stay true to the main events of the game. The game should be canon in this case, not the novel, if it is insisted that this be FR history.
Kuje31 07-04-03, 12:31 AM	Originally posted by Dungeon_Master Kuje, no offense, but I'd like to question if you've played the games before you say the novels are canon, personally. IMHO, I'm kind of tired of people treating the novels like holy writ.:smirk: The novelists are not the game designers, and I personally think they should not be entrusted with the fate of the sourcebooks. Speaking of sourcebooks, you said something about a sourcebook on the events chronicled in BG. I haven't seen one for 3rd edition yet. Like I said, a module for this could be even better than putting it in as "history".... Anyhow, I'll end this post with this: Before novelizing an FR PC game (or any computor game), maybe it would be best to have someone write it who has played the game and will stay true to the main events of the game. The game should be canon in this case, not the novel, if it is insisted that this be FR history. And im tired of people claiming that the novels are not official. As I said, who cares if the games and the novels don't match. The games are not canon, the novel and the sourcebook is, and so the sourcebook and the novel are written from that perspective. Ah forget it. Why would they make a sourcebook for 3E, when there is one for 2e and it was one of the last sourcebooks for 2e. Just like the 2e/3e hybred modual for the Pool of Radiance: Attack on Myth Drannor game. A lot of that game does not make it into the sourcebooks and novels either, why does not one complain about that game? Hmmm maybe cause it was so bad? I will admit I did not play that game because of all the bugs in it. If the game is canon then you are right it does not match the history of FR, however the game is not canon. The sourcebook and the novel is, this is not a hard concept to understand it has always been so. Games written way back for the Commodore 64 (gods I am showing my age here) have always been this way. Namely the first Pools of games, and Curse of Azure Bonds game. Alias is written into FR's history, not the party who is in the Curse of the Azure Bonds games. You don't see for example Tommy's party as part of the worlds history or Bobs or Jims, etc. Only Alias, since she was written about in the novels and the sourcebooks. The games vary differently then the official material. And yes for your information I have played every Black Isle game up to Neverwinter Nights.
Telagaunt 07-04-03, 01:05 AM	Originally posted by Alzrius For a list of all the canon Chosen so far (and no, most of them don't have a template made for them), go here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=525776#post525776 Thanks
Araciel 07-04-03, 01:15 AM	karsus had "Karsus' Avatar" the only 12th level spell ever...cause when mystra was born, she (supposedly) made it so no spell above 9th level could be created but we all know what happens when mystra puts her foot down... people get stepped on, cause...she's a goddess...they can be gigantic .....and they live in the heavens...cept in forgotten realms they live on other planes... i need a nap
hoganjr54321 11-20-03, 02:26 PM	IF I had to choose I would chose elminster:cool:
Shylo Slick 11-20-03, 08:59 PM	In the original FR "1e version" the 5 most powerful spellcasting creatures would have been,... 1. Kartek Spellseer 31 lvl necromancer "rumored to be netherese" 2. Flamesterd 28 lvl firebased master 'who lived underwater" 3. Shoon 26 lvl incancatrix - demi lich "stuck in a book" 4. Elminister 26 lvl normal wizard and extraordinary sage 5. Shimmergloom GW Shadow Dragon with 11 pips per die -back then 8 was the normal max allowed "supposedly the realms greatest ever shadow dragon" back then realm dragons got double the normal physical attacks allowed, and could use their breath weapon as often as desired as long as the total damage was within their 3x hp limit " an ancient red wyrm with 88 hp could breath once for 264 hp of damage or breath 264 times for 1 hp of damage or any combination within that range, the early realms dragons could kill anything on the opening round if they wanted too. "264 hp damage sv. for 132 damage" if you were not immune you were dead. ever since then the power, class levels, and such have changed constantly with every new accessory or edition introduced, and it appears this trend is still continueing, and always will. the most powerful spellslinger in the realms is the one they are about to introduce in the next wave of new accessories, updates, and editions. and yes larloch was around then but he had no stats and the only time he was ever introduced was in ed's personal game to teach his pc's a lesson on humility, "Ed had him disentegrate the island they where on, and plunged them into the sea. Talk about over doing it." TSR should have had the balls to drawn a line to what Ed could introduce into THEIR gaming world a long time ago, just because you thought of something first doesn't mean you can control it forever, especially when some of the things your proposing are utterly stupid.
Kuje31 11-20-03, 09:09 PM	Originally posted by Shylo Slick and yes larloch was around then but he had no stats and the only time he was ever introduced was in ed's personal game to teach his pc's a lesson on humility, "Ed had him disentegrate the island they where on, and plunged them into the sea. Talk about over doing it." TSR should have had the balls to drawn a line to what Ed could introduce into THEIR gaming world a long time ago, just because you thought of something first doesn't mean you can control it forever, especially when some of the things your proposing are utterly stupid. This wasn't Larloch. :). It was Shaan, the Serpent-Queen. :) "I'm reminded of the original Realms campaign, and the Company of Crazed Venturers attacking Shaan the Serpent-Queen (who briefly appeared in a Wizards Three DRAGON article). She was busy working magic on a small island off Mintarn. They attacked, broke her concentration, and she looked up with an irritated frown. They bid her stop, or they'd destroy what she was working on; to demonstrate, one of the Company mages touched (and disintegrated) a stone he was standing beside. She shook her head in derision, and touched the island beneath them, disintegrating IT, and dumping the Company into the chilly sea waves for a long swim...whilst she turned back to her spellcasting, floating on nothing and ignoring them once more."
Baptor 11-25-03, 01:55 AM	Ah here we go. I agree with the Simbul totally and irrevocably on the issue that levels and numbers and such do not translate all of a persons power. A great deal of it yes, but not all. Elminster is hands-down the most powerful mortal in the realms, not because he is the most powerful wizard, but because he is the best wizard. This has been talked about before and I think that first sentance was actually a quote from Ed. Elminster doesnt pack as much heat as the Simbul or Larloch or whomever as far as raw power, but old El is far more experinced than they are, and most liches have gone insane and thus have a glaring weakness. (Read LoD description of Larloch's mental health) Elminster knows almost every spell there is and knows all the capabilities of those spells. He can take a transmute rock to mud spell and vanquish an army, for he knows all sorts of ways to use spells to clever and tricky ends. Upon this, he can stand his own in melee combat due to his past fighter experinces, which make him radically diffrenet than other would-be god mages of the realms. Silver Fire, and I do agree with the previous post on this, does far more damage than the books say. (My own home brew version is thus 1d6 per Hit Die of user, DC 20+ highest mental ability score, penetrates spell resistance, and any magical defenses) Thus Elminster's silver fire deals 35d6 damage. And if you think thats overpowered, it is. :P Despite El's sliver fire, he is still the best simply because the old rooster knows everything about anything, and will always be better than you. Conisder a expert marksman with a pistol and a fool with a shotgun. Shotgun is stronger, but the marksman will win. I quote an old addage. Age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill. This holds true. As for the Simbul being the MOST powerful spellcaster, I dont personally know. Its a toss up for me between the following chaps. The Simbul Larloch Telamont Tanthul And that lich thats the leader of the Twisted Rune, cant recall his name off hand. Each has strengths and weaknesses, and sorry Simbul, Larloch and Telamont both have epic spellcasting in my write ups, which I can make available if anyone wishes me to. I agree that of all the chosen, the simbul was shafted, I also personally think of her as a 30th sorcerer 2 archmage. But of course, I dont run any of these legends as foes or such in my games. If some fool did attempt to kill a Chosen or one of the uber liches, they would almost certainly die a most terrible death at the hands of some spell or combination of spells they never thought exsisted or was possible. Despite the fact that this debate could last forever, the truth is none of these people would ever directly challenge the other to a duel of fates, because as mentioned in the sidebar "Concerns of the Mighty" in the FRCS by Elminster, each knows that although they might win, their oppoenent could likewise blast them into oblivion. They dont take such chances.
Baptor 11-25-03, 02:03 AM	Originally posted by Kuje31 And im tired of people claiming that the novels are not official. As I said, who cares if the games and the novels don't match. The games are not canon, the novel and the sourcebook is, and so the sourcebook and the novel are written from that perspective. Ah forget it. Why would they make a sourcebook for 3E, when there is one for 2e and it was one of the last sourcebooks for 2e. Just like the 2e/3e hybred modual for the Pool of Radiance: Attack on Myth Drannor game. A lot of that game does not make it into the sourcebooks and novels either, why does not one complain about that game? Hmmm maybe cause it was so bad? I will admit I did not play that game because of all the bugs in it. If the game is canon then you are right it does not match the history of FR, however the game is not canon. The sourcebook and the novel is, this is not a hard concept to understand it has always been so. Games written way back for the Commodore 64 (gods I am showing my age here) have always been this way. Namely the first Pools of games, and Curse of Azure Bonds game. Alias is written into FR's history, not the party who is in the Curse of the Azure Bonds games. You don't see for example Tommy's party as part of the worlds history or Bobs or Jims, etc. Only Alias, since she was written about in the novels and the sourcebooks. The games vary differently then the official material. And yes for your information I have played every Black Isle game up to Neverwinter Nights. Toche I played through the BG series with 1 character all the way through every expansion and finished Throne. That character and his party are written up in my game. Sure thats not cannon, but its my world, and every character played in my game is likewise written up if he survives the voyage. I highly consider the novels as cannon and official. The only one I truly ignore is the BG game novels, because christ no one takes those seriously. I played the game, payed the cash and worked my ass off to get that char to where he got. So he is the hero of that story in my world. Other worlds may differ, but thats cool its your world. Disagreements will arise, after all, some folks dont want novelists messing with thier world. You build a huge story in Tilverton with all these characters and bam Troy destroys it. For some that is unacceptable, and I totally understand. For my part though the main novels speak the truth, until I decide otherwise.
Darkmistress 11-25-03, 03:43 AM	Originally posted by Dungeon_Master Kuje, no offense, but I'd like to question if you've played the games before you say the novels are canon, personally. Uhm... Are you aware that the neither the novels nor the games are canon, in any way, shape, or form? If they were, the events would certainly have been mentioned in some sourcebook or another; they were hardly minor. The whole Bhaalspawn saga is just another home-brewed campaign. They are not official. At all. Kthxbye~ IMHO, I'm kind of tired of people treating the novels like holy writ.:smirk: The novelists are not the game designers, and I personally think they should not be entrusted with the fate of the sourcebooks. And I am tired of people who keep screaming, "But the novels mess with the rules! They are not canon!" The sourcebooks are hardly holy bibles, themselves. You know, most of the inconsistencies and errors come from the sourcebooks, not the novels. Like the "mythal" in Silverymoon, among other things. Or changes that just don't make sense, rape the earlier published material and mutilate its corpse -- new cosmology, anyone? I have yet to read a novel that violently contradicts a sourcebook. A sourcebook that violently contradicts a novel -- now that's another matter. Catti-brie marrying Wulfgar, anyone? In your place, someone could've said, "The game designers, I personally think, should not be entrusted with the fate of the novels." Ridiculous. The novels went through WoTC's proofreaders/editors; if they were that implausible, do you think they'd have been published?
Kuje31 11-25-03, 04:05 AM	Originally posted by Darkmistress Uhm... Are you aware that the neither the novels nor the games are canon, in any way, shape, or form? If they were, the events would certainly have been mentioned in some sourcebook or another; they were hardly minor. The whole Bhaalspawn saga is just another home-brewed campaign. They are not official. At all. Kthxbye~ And I am tired of people who keep screaming, "But the novels mess with the rules! They are not canon!" The sourcebooks are hardly holy bibles, themselves. You know, most of the inconsistencies and errors come from the sourcebooks, not the novels. Like the "mythal" in Silverymoon, among other things. Or changes that just don't make sense, rape the earlier published material and mutilate its corpse -- new cosmology, anyone? I have yet to read a novel that violently contradicts a sourcebook. A sourcebook that violently contradicts a novel -- now that's another matter. Catti-brie marrying Wulfgar, anyone? I dont know if this was adressed to me or not, but again the novels are mentioned in a sourcebook, it's called Volo's Guide to Baldur's Gate 2. Heck even on the back of that sourcebook it says, "You've played the game, now experience the same thing as the game but in your table top FR game." And the 1st novel is also listed on the official WOTC FR time line on the WOTC site. And since Dragon is also official and it has stats for the characters it doesn't matter if they are written up in a sourcebook or not. Dragon is official, it always has been and it continues to be so. There are many things in Dragon that Ed or Steven Schend or others have written up over the years, but have never made it into sourcebooks due to space reasons or other factors but they are still considered official realms lore. Take the stats for the Spider Queen characters, they are not in official sourcebooks but they are in Dragon so they are official. And for your other part of this, take the whole Earthmother mess. There's three novels and two sourcebooks where it says she returned and even the 1st Planescape box set had these two as seperate deities. Then there's three to four sourcebooks where it says she is part of Chauntea, even though she isn't supposed to be because when she returned Chauntea's worship ended on the Moonshaes, since Robyn, Alicia and the rest of the druids on the Moonshaes started to worship the Earthmother and spread her faith back among the Ffolk.
Kuje31 11-25-03, 04:17 AM	Originally posted by Baptor Toche I played through the BG series with 1 character all the way through every expansion and finished Throne. That character and his party are written up in my game. Sure thats not cannon, but its my world, and every character played in my game is likewise written up if he survives the voyage. I highly consider the novels as cannon and official. The only one I truly ignore is the BG game novels, because christ no one takes those seriously. I played the game, payed the cash and worked my ass off to get that char to where he got. So he is the hero of that story in my world. Other worlds may differ, but thats cool its your world. Disagreements will arise, after all, some folks dont want novelists messing with thier world. You build a huge story in Tilverton with all these characters and bam Troy destroys it. For some that is unacceptable, and I totally understand. For my part though the main novels speak the truth, until I decide otherwise. I take the BG novels seriously. I thought they were alright, considering they were based on the game, and I liked how they ended. It was a perfect way to explain how the novels and sourcebook are different then the game they were based on, and they don't really leave many errors in the history of FR, since the main character doesn't go on to become a deity. Now the last Pools of novel I could have done without, since there are way to many things in there that the author got wrong..... But it is still canon, since it ties in with the module and I believe there was also a article or two in Dragon about that module and novel. However, I am not talking about MY or your version of FR. I am talking about TSR'S/WOTC's canon version of FR. There is the official world and then there is every ones homebrew world. Trust me, my version of FR is nothing like TSR'S/WOTC's canon FR. So because there are three novels written for that game, a sourcebook and about three Dragon articles the BG games are canon in TSR'S/WOTC's world, just like Curse of the Azure Bonds or the Pool's of, or Attack on Myth Drannor. Neverwinter Nights is not, since the book of short stories never saw the light of day and there is no module for it, except for the article came out in Dragon, since Dragon is official.
Lilian The Lady Ghost 11-25-03, 05:04 AM	Wasn't the topic The Most Powerful Arcane Spellcaster?
kedi 11-25-03, 07:54 AM	While lord dark (Lorloch) poseses the greatest spells, acording to FRCS, Simbul is the poseses the greatest Arcane power ever
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-25-03, 05:56 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 I take the BG novels seriously. I thought they were alright, considering they were based on the game, and I liked how they ended. I thought the third book was pretty good. I also liked the ending--Abdel ended up with the "Bhaal essence" that he was born with, but he just accepted it and went on with his life. I liked this better than what was in the game (*all* your Bhaal essence is removed, what a cop out). I thought the second book in the series was about average. Not great, but I honestly didn't hate it as much as I thought I would (I don't even know why, myself). I *DID* hate the first book, though. Not just because of how it differed with the game, but the way it was written. But maybe I'd have been a fairer judge if I hadn't played the game first.
aelryinth 11-25-03, 09:57 PM	Either in Dragon or On the WoTC boards they introduced the Chosen of Auril...I think she was a Cleric/so20ish Heirophant/5, and she definitely had Epic Spells...they statted two of them out for her. Can't remember anything else, however...you'd have to go back and check. And I'm fairly sure they gave the Simbul knowledge of some Epic Spells.. ==Aelryinth
Alzrius 11-25-03, 11:29 PM	Originally posted by aelryinth Either in Dragon or On the WoTC boards they introduced the Chosen of Auril...I think she was a Cleric/so20ish Heirophant/5, and she definitely had Epic Spells...they statted two of them out for her. Can't remember anything else, however...you'd have to go back and check. And I'm fairly sure they gave the Simbul knowledge of some Epic Spells.. ==Aelryinth It wasn't in Dragon, or I'd remember it. Likewise, as far as I know, anything on the boards wouldn't be official. Originally posted y DarkMistress Uhm... Are you aware that the neither the novels nor the games are canon, in any way, shape, or form? If they were, the events would certainly have been mentioned in some sourcebook or another; they were hardly minor. The whole Bhaalspawn saga is just another home-brewed campaign. They are not official. At all. Kthxbye~ Kuje already pointed this out, but I just want to echo that this entire sentiment is wrong. The games aren't inherently canon, but novels are unless we know otherwise. The Bhaalspawn events (it always keeps coming back to this) were canon, since they got a Dragon mention...but even without that they would be unless there was a specific reason they couldn't be.
Alzrius 11-25-03, 11:30 PM	Originally posted by aelryinth Either in Dragon or On the WoTC boards they introduced the Chosen of Auril...I think she was a Cleric/so20ish Heirophant/5, and she definitely had Epic Spells...they statted two of them out for her. Can't remember anything else, however...you'd have to go back and check. And I'm fairly sure they gave the Simbul knowledge of some Epic Spells.. ==Aelryinth It wasn't in Dragon, or I'd remember it. Likewise, as far as I know, anything on the boards wouldn't be official. Originally posted y DarkMistress Uhm... Are you aware that the neither the novels nor the games are canon, in any way, shape, or form? If they were, the events would certainly have been mentioned in some sourcebook or another; they were hardly minor. The whole Bhaalspawn saga is just another home-brewed campaign. They are not official. At all. Kthxbye~ Kuje already pointed this out, but I just want to echo that this entire sentiment is wrong. The games aren't inherently canon, but novels are unless we know otherwise. The Bhaalspawn events (it always keeps coming back to this) were canon, since they got a Dragon mention...but even without that they would be unless there was a specific reason they couldn't be.
Kain's avatar 11-26-03, 12:10 AM	It wasn't in Dragon, or I'd remember it. Likewise, as far as I know, anything on the boards wouldn't be official. She's in the ELH, and yes, she is quite powerful, but this is supposed to be most powerful arcane caster. ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-26-03, 12:11 AM	I personally like Richard Baker's take on the matter: What's canon is whatever you want to put in your game.
Darkmistress 11-26-03, 01:38 AM	The Bhaalspawn events (it always keeps coming back to this) were canon, since they got a Dragon mention...but even without that they would be unless there was a specific reason they couldn't be. I remember from somewhere that a Bioware (BIS?) developer stated that the BG saga is not canon. My memory could be playing merry hell with me, but I'm fairly certain that the BG saga -- novel or game -- isn't canon.
Kuje31 11-26-03, 01:59 AM	Originally posted by Darkmistress I remember from somewhere that a Bioware (BIS?) developer stated that the BG saga is not canon. My memory could be playing merry hell with me, but I'm fairly certain that the BG saga -- novel or game -- isn't canon. Your going by what a bioware developer said? Well again the game isn't, however the novels, the soucebook, and the dragon articles are, which are all based on the game. Same thing happened with the old Pools of games, or Curse of the Azure Bonds game, or Pool of Radiance:Attack on Myth Drannor since that game also has a novel and a sourcebook and if I recall right a dragon article. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/fr/fictionlist Looking at the list there are also many stories printed in Dragon that are on that list, and also the comics. Baldur's Gate Philip Athans 1999 1368 1368 Interplay Computer Game tie-in So WOTC deems it official, since it is in the FR timeline and took place in 1368. Pool of Radiance II Carrie Bebris 2000 1369 1369 SSI Computer Game tie-in Just like the Pool of Radiance novel took place in 1369. :) Baldur's Gate II Philip Athans 2000 1369 1369 Interplay Computer Game tie-in Or again this one took place in 1369.
Alzrius 11-26-03, 02:14 AM	Originally posted by Kain's avatar She's in the ELH No, she isn't. The "she" that I was referring to in aelryinth's post was the so-called "Chosen of Auril". You are referring to Iyraclea from the ELH. While the levels do match, Iyraclea is NOT Auril's Chosen, and it never says she is in the ELH.
Alzrius 11-26-03, 02:21 AM	Originally posted by Darkmistress I remember from somewhere that a Bioware (BIS?) developer stated that the BG saga is not canon. My memory could be playing merry hell with me, but I'm fairly certain that the BG saga -- novel or game -- isn't canon. The key thing to remember here is that the Bioware people can only speak for their computer game in this regard (and to be honest, they don't have the authority to even do that, since WotC owns the Realms and can make whatever they feel like canon). Thusly, novels are a separate province, and so Bioware has no authority to make any declaration over them. Ergo, the status quo, that novels are canon unless proven otherwise, holds true. Further evidence of the novels' canonity is found in the two Dragon magazine tie-ins. Dragon content is always canon (hence why it says its official on the cover). Thus, the material referenced in those tie-in (I don't have the issue numbers, but one was a character gallery, and the other was the Bhaalspawn template) is most definately canon. Ergo, the novels, describing the related events, are also.
Sculdar 11-26-03, 05:55 AM	Originally posted by aelryinth Either in Dragon or On the WoTC boards they introduced the Chosen of Auril...I think she was a Cleric/so20ish Heirophant/5, and she definitely had Epic Spells...they statted two of them out for her. Can't remember anything else, however...you'd have to go back and check. And I'm fairly sure they gave the Simbul knowledge of some Epic Spells.. ==Aelryinth Don“t remember the name exactly...but the maiden of the Great Glacier is Clr20/Hir5 is mentioned in the Epic Level Handbook......and she has Epic Spells (Icerazor and something like that)...but she was "only" a cleric of Auril and not "chosen".
*Shimmergloom* 11-26-03, 08:12 AM	Originally posted by Shylo Slick 5. Shimmergloom GW Shadow Dragon with 11 pips per die -back then 8 was the normal max allowed "supposedly the realms greatest ever shadow dragon" back then realm dragons got double the normal physical attacks allowed, and could use their breath weapon as often as desired as long as the total damage was within their 3x hp limit " an ancient red wyrm with 88 hp could breath once for 264 hp of damage or breath 264 times for 1 hp of damage or any combination within that range, the early realms dragons could kill anything on the opening round if they wanted too. "264 hp damage sv. for 132 damage" if you were not immune you were dead. *Looks really smug* :embarrass
Alisttair 11-26-03, 12:45 PM	The most powerfull arcane spellcaster was my PC who found one of the three known nearly impossible to find time gates and ended up in the time of Netheril, then made copy of the spell Karsus' Avatar but tapped into the Shadow Weave instead to cast it and stole Mystryl's divinity immediately after Karsus did (thus stealing it from Karsus) with the blessing of Shar, thus being able to hold and control the power of the weave, and therefore became Shar's consort and have merged the Weave and the Shadow weave into one allmighty source. Due to his divine stature, the time conduit of the portal could not bring him back at the end of the year and so he has beeb a god since. The other PCs arrived back to the time however and they found that on the ground, the sun could be seen in only rare locales as the fall of Netheril was saved and now in 1373DR there are floating cities pracitcally everywhere and the only remaining gods are my PC and Shar who have taken over every portfolio and split evenly amongst themselves. AO was shocked by this chaotic change and told the two sole of his gods that they made a big mess so to hell with it they can do whatever they please from now on, he was done with Toril....and thus Ao decided to go to Krynn and marry Takhisis.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-26-03, 03:52 PM	Again, I say, who cares? Rich Baker said he refused to settle the BG debate, saying what is "canon" is whatever you want to put in your game. And that's the answer I like best.
Lilian The Lady Ghost 11-26-03, 08:09 PM	Originally posted by Alisttair The most powerfull arcane spellcaster was my PC who found one of the three known nearly impossible to find time gates and ended up in the time of Netheril, then made copy of the spell Karsus' Avatar but tapped into the Shadow Weave instead to cast it and stole Mystryl's divinity immediately after Karsus did (thus stealing it from Karsus) with the blessing of Shar, thus being able to hold and control the power of the weave, and therefore became Shar's consort and have merged the Weave and the Shadow weave into one allmighty source. Due to his divine stature, the time conduit of the portal could not bring him back at the end of the year and so he has beeb a god since. The other PCs arrived back to the time however and they found that on the ground, the sun could be seen in only rare locales as the fall of Netheril was saved and now in 1373DR there are floating cities pracitcally everywhere and the only remaining gods are my PC and Shar who have taken over every portfolio and split evenly amongst themselves. AO was shocked by this chaotic change and told the two sole of his gods that they made a big mess so to hell with it they can do whatever they please from now on, he was done with Toril....and thus Ao decided to go to Krynn and marry Takhisis. Your unnamed mage-god has my vote! :D who offers more?
Baptor 11-28-03, 07:26 PM	Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin Again, I say, who cares? Rich Baker said he refused to settle the BG debate, saying what is "canon" is whatever you want to put in your game. And that's the answer I like best. Totally agreed, 100%.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-29-03, 12:26 AM	I'm so glad, Baptor. :)