Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Unamis 04-29-06, 05:46 AM	I wasn't quite sure which sub-forum would be the best place for this kind of a thread, but I have been wondering where would a person with a Multiple Personality Disorder go after his or hers death? The soul is usually judged by Kelemvor, and then A) sent to the deity that it follows/chooses to follow in death; B) smacked to the Wall if Faithless; or C) sent to the plane closest to the persons allignment. There's a problem with each of these, as now a single body carries two minds and personalities - and we could argue about even two souls, but can we ever say for sure? So, how should the victim of MPD be judged? According to the personality she/he was born with? What if the two different personalities both worship the gods, but different ones, or even rivaling ones? I know this is a bit unorthodox subject, but since actually one of my players is playing such a character, the question has been brought up a few times.
Blades_of_Fury 04-29-06, 07:18 AM	I think the soul would be riped apart if there is one, or split up if there are more and then sent to the right place
Gray Richardson 04-29-06, 01:04 PM	Souls are not judged by Kelemvor unless they are false or faithless. It's a common misconception that Kelemvor judges all souls. He doesn't. Only if a god does not come for you is your soul called to the Kelemvor's city to be judged. When you die in the Realms, your soul goes to the Fugue Plane where it hangs out waiting for its patron god (or an agent of that god) to come pick it up. Only your patron god or an agent of that god can collect your soul. In theory, a soul can only have one patron god. But I can conceive of 2 options for a character with multiple personalities. 1) Option One: The soul really only has one patron god. This may be the patron of the true/base personality, or alternatively the personality that is most dominant, or perhaps the one with the strongest belief. This is for the DM & the Player to decide together (well, really the DM is the ultimate authority). Under this option, only one god could collect your soul. 2) Option Two: The other option would be to say, okay each "alter" or personality can have its own patron god. So when you die, your name appears on the "list" of each of the gods you called patron. At that point, the god (or his agents) could approach you and ask you to go with him. These agents don't show up instantly when you die. They show up anywhere from an hour, a day, or up to a week after you die (depending on how busy the god or his agents are). So the agent that approached you first would have dibs on your soul. But here's a kicker: you don't have to go with that agent. Depending on which alter was active at the moment, you could decide to either go with the agent or decline and wait around for someone else. If you decline, then you would have to wait around for another agent to approach you. The same gods agents may approach you multiple times. "You sure you don't want to come to Arvandor? It's pretty nice. We have a pool..." You will keep being approached by agents of your patron gods until you accept and go with one of them. You may have to wait around until one of your alters is approached by an agent of its own patron or possibly is persuaded to go with the agent of one of the other alter's patrons. I imagine that with skillful diplomacy checks an agent might convince an alter to go to that god's paradise, even if that wasn't the patron god of that particular alter. The longer you wait, the greater the chance that you might be approached by a honey-tongued devil that will try to convince you to go to the Nine Hells and fight in the Baatorian army. They are allowed to lie and use trickery, so they might persuade you to go under false pretenses, but you would still have to agree voluntarily. Alternatively, if you hang around too long on the Fugue, a group of raiding demons might kidnap your soul and take it down to the Abyss. They do that periodically. Another hazard is that Dendar sometimes wakes up hungry and roams the plane gobbling up petitioners. She might eat you if you tarry too long on the Fugue. Lastly, if you keep denying the requests of your patrons' agents, then your soul might eventually be called to Kelemvor's city to be judged. If he judges you as faithless, you might end up in the wall. If he judges you as false, he might sentence you to punishment which would range from light duties around the City, on up to torture of varying degrees. He might also just try and talk you into making a decision about which patron you should go off with. How Kelemvor exercises the duties of his office is really for the DM to decide.
Herobane 04-29-06, 05:30 PM	I should pay attention to this, and you'll know why if you know of Tiax... Or Chulutu...
Lord Karsus 04-29-06, 11:38 PM	-One way to explain why Multiple-Personality Disorders exist in the first place is that, through some sort of planear mishap, a single body ends up with more than one soul. So, upon death, each individual soul winds up going to the realm of his/her deity. That's my take on it, anyway...
Auburn 04-30-06, 01:13 AM	I'd say each personality is one aspect of the person as a whole, and whichever god is closest overall average of all the personalities together determines their fate in the afterlife.
Vasyek 04-30-06, 01:40 AM	-One way to explain why Multiple-Personality Disorders exist in the first place is that, through some sort of planear mishap, a single body ends up with more than one soul. An neat theory, but it requires the insanity to be an accident that preceeds the formation of identity, which is a lot less interesting than it existing as a state that could potentially afflict anyone, conjoined souls or no, under the right circumstances. I do like the idea of two souls leaving the mortal coil as a result of developing multiple-personalities, though. Maybe each mortal soul has a center of sorts, and when that center is shaken to a sufficient degree, it tears itself into fragments.
Another Gnome 04-30-06, 05:04 AM	There's a problem with each of these, as now a single body carries two minds and personalities - and we could argue about even two souls, but can we ever say for sure? If a mortal can't decide whom he or she wants to spend the rest of eternity with, it's Kelemvor's job to clean up the mess while Jergal matches the accounts. Nothing special about it where the gods are concerned, and it's not like losing one or two potential souls actually makes a difference to a deity. Mortals really aren't as all-important as many players would like to think their characters to be... :ghosted:
Lord Karsus 05-01-06, 12:20 AM	An neat theory, but it requires the insanity to be an accident that preceeds the formation of identity, which is a lot less interesting than it existing as a state that could potentially afflict anyone, conjoined souls or no, under the right circumstances. -I've never met anyone with Multiple-Personality Disorder, and it's been a while since I studied it in AP Psychology, a few years back. Is insanity neccesary? I'm sure that it is possible for a person to be perfectly normal, asides for the fact that they suddenly switch between different identities. -Remember though, this is D&D. To explain nearly anything, we can just say something along the lines of, "Oh, it's magic", and it doesn't have to conform to normal reality. I do like the idea of two souls leaving the mortal coil as a result of developing multiple-personalities, though. Maybe each mortal soul has a center of sorts, and when that center is shaken to a sufficient degree, it tears itself into fragments. -Upon his death, Karsus was split into three different fragments. Of course, the circumstances of his death were extravagant. It's suffice to say that his situation isn't going to be the default situation. But, it does show that it is possible for a soul to be split into different fragmants. Whether the fragments are independent, dependent, or something completely different, is up to each individual DM though, since not much on the status of Karsus, and why he is the way he is now has been said.
Vasyek 05-01-06, 11:24 AM	-I've never met anyone with Multiple-Personality Disorder, and it's been a while since I studied it in AP Psychology, a few years back. Is insanity neccesary? I'm sure that it is possible for a person to be perfectly normal, asides for the fact that they suddenly switch between different identities. Wouldn't know how technically valid it would be to call someone with Multiple-Personality Disorder insane, I was using it more in a layman's sense. Having two minds that may or may not know of each other, may work at counter-purposes with one another (if movies are to be believed), and that are a generally drastic and irrational coping method (insofar as shutting a part of yourself off to let another pick up the slack is drastic, and something a rational person approaches only in compartmentalization) fit my unprofessional bill for insanity. -Remember though, this is D&D. To explain nearly anything, we can just say something along the lines of, "Oh, it's magic", and it doesn't have to conform to normal reality. You can, but that doesn't mean anything is necessarily gained by doing so. I'd say psychological effects influencing metaphysical destiny if they become sufficiently entrenched, as per my theory, is fantastic enough. -Upon his death, Karsus was split into three different fragments. And Cyric's momentary diffusion into a raving host of selves when Mystra stripped the use of magic from him, supports the notion of extreme imbalance potentially yielding this sort of effect. I'd imagine not all of the personalities would necessarily make it to an afterlife: subordinate personas might simply be devoured in a post-mortem equivalent to in utero absorption, and destructive ones/personalities unknown to the base persona or vice versa might have a marked predisposition to linger as ghosts or other appropriate undead. One supremely troubled mind producing a Caller in Darkness could even be possible... hell, I could see sufficiently depraved creatures/faiths actively 'breeding' them in this way.
GothicDan 05-01-06, 12:31 PM	Disassociative Identity Disorder is the canon term for Multiple Personality Disorder. It's a "Disorder" - insanity really isn't a psychological term anymore. Psychotic, however, is. Check the DSM. :)
Gray Richardson 05-01-06, 09:26 PM	Since we are talking about a fantasy world, we needn't necessarily assume any psychological disorders. There are lots of reasons for different personalities to occupy the same body: Lycanthropy, Potions (Jekyll & Hyde), Curses, Posession, etc.
Aaron L 05-05-06, 12:58 AM	Well, if you want some real world info, multiple personality disorder, or its clinical name: dissasociative identity disorder, happens when someone undergoes such traumatic experiences for such a long period of time that thier mind attempts to dissassociate itself from certain memories or emotions (or pain), sometimes the ego actually disolves and the persona "breaks apart," and while most of thier personality "pulls back", a small part remains in contact with reality, in control, and that part sometimes shifts to another part. So, sometimes an "aggressive" personality element will be on the surface, for example, and sometimes another will be. But they are incomplete personality fragments in dominance over the personality, not a new identity. The disorder is so rare that only something like 80 or so cases have been reported, ever, in like 300 years. There is some controversy over whether it is a real condition or not. In any case, it is accompanied by depression and many other psychosis. And its always a very, very bad condition, an "insanity" The idea that the soul actually fragments in such a situation is interesting. But it would be just that, a shattered soul, and each peice would be just one aspect of a whole individual. If they did go to seperate afterlives, it could be a very interesting problems for the deities involved. Is each ones tuck with a peice of a shatteresd soul? Do they get into a fight over who has the right to claim all of the peices?
Sliced_Mustard 05-07-06, 06:46 PM	rather than splitting up a soul to be divided amongst all applicable afterlifes, one could assume that death "cures" the disorder and the individual's true personality is all that remains. this would seem to imply that the disorder is a physical malady that is cast off when the soul is separated from the body; but one could also make the assumption that the shock of dying puts the individual's mind right. of course, another possibility is that the soul remains mentally ill and it goes to no outer plane --remaining on the material plane as a ghost until its unfinished business is resolved. in this case, its unfinished business would be getting its mental disorder sorted out so that it is truly a soul of one mind at peace with itself. anyway, what god would want to draw into itself a damaged soul? that is what happens to souls when they go to the afterlife, isn't it? merge with the essence of their god after spending time as a petitioner? a soul of an individual with multiple personalities would be impure to the god (unless, in the unlikely scenario, all personalities shared the same beliefs and ethos), and such an impurity would be rejected rather than absorbed into the divine collective.
Vasyek 05-07-06, 07:40 PM	rather than splitting up a soul to be divided amongst all applicable afterlifes, one could assume that death "cures" the disorder and the individual's true personality is all that remains. this would seem to imply that the disorder is a physical malady that is cast off when the soul is separated from the body; but one could also make the assumption that the shock of dying puts the individual's mind right. One could, but where's the fun in that? It's needlessly optimistic, gratuitously pat. People should suffer until they muster the will or clarity to suffer no more; having death super-glue their fractured psyche back together, or otherwise ameliorate any other internal conflict/trauma trivializes resolve, choices, and history that would otherwise be instrumental to their definition as man or spirit. in this case, its unfinished business would be getting its mental disorder sorted out so that it is truly a soul of one mind at peace with itself. Or further transfiguration through madness. There's no bottom on that ride, after all. anyway, what god would want to draw into itself a damaged soul? All souls are damaged to one degree or another. Gods should be used to a measure of dysfunction, and short of the truly epic variety, frays in the mind and spirit may well recede iｎto memory along with all the other pecularities of a once distinct perspective when incorporated into the god's greater whole. There are also those who are connoiseurs of imperfection　and dissonance. Do you think they want their petitioners attaining anything that vaguely resembles peace? Aside from these sadists and voyeurs there would be the stoics, who mark the progression toward wisdom by the hardships endured. They too might have use for troubled souls, if only on the condition that they endeavor to overcome their ailments. a soul of an individual with multiple personalities would be impure to the god (unless, in the unlikely scenario, all personalities shared the same beliefs and ethos), and such an impurity would be rejected rather than absorbed into the divine collective. Who says it's an impurity? the diffusion of one into many could well be viewed as miraculous, as wrenching and inspired as any living birth (if that scene does anything for you, anyway.) And who says all the personalities go to the same place? any number of divergent fates could claim them, depending on their outlooks, actions, faith, or lack of the same. this would seem to imply that the disorder is a physical malady that is cast off when the soul is separated from the body; but one could also make the assumption that the shock of dying puts the individual's mind right. I don't see how their ability to overcome their maladies or inability to do the same defines them any less than their other thoughts or actions, nor why it should fade from consideration in light of their soul's journey.
Sliced_Mustard 05-07-06, 09:06 PM	vasyek, I was merely offering alternative options, not answers. as for the answer about the ghost concerning the bottomless ride of madness, I agree that this is what's likely to happen. most ghosts do not resolve the problems that tie them to the world of the living; its usually up to someone else to discover what troubles the ghost so that the matter could be resolved and the ghost can move on from the mortal plane. People should suffer until they muster the will or clarity to suffer no more; having death super-glue their fractured psyche back together, or otherwise ameliorate any other internal conflict/trauma trivializes resolve, choices, and history that would otherwise be instrumental to their definition as man or spirit. it no more trivializes things than a heal spell being a cureall for nearly all forms of damage and disorder within the body. I was merely suggesting the possibility that death could shock the mind back to rightness, not that it should. besides, are the mind and soul even the same thing? insanity could very likely be rooted in the physical aspects of the brain, so once the soul is freed of the body, it very well could be freed of its mental disorders. Who says it's an impurity? the diffusion of one into many could well be viewed as miraculous, as wrenching and inspired as any living birth (if that scene does anything for you, anyway.) And who says all the personalities go to the same place? any number of divergent fates could claim them, depending on their outlooks, actions, faith, or lack of the same. I said it was an impurity as a means to illustrate a point for yet another alternative, not an answer. as for whether or not all personalities go to the same place, who says that multiple personalities can go to different places? only if the soul is fractured could different personalities go to different planes. this begs the question does multiple personality disorder split the soul? it doesn't necessarily have to, not according to anything I've read other than some people's opinions, and no one's opinion is more valid than anyone else's. so if a single soul with multiple personalities of differing belief systems goes to a single god in the afterlife, then I would say very much yes that all personalities that do not match that god's ethos would be considered impurities. anyway, how about contributing to the subject more constructively rather than just shooting down my ideas individually? its
Vasyek 05-07-06, 10:19 PM	vasyek, I was merely offering alternative options, not answers. And I was responding to them from the basis of my own opinions. Perhaps a bit redundant, given that I've already posted them in this thread, but there it is all the same. it no more trivializes things than a heal spell being a cureall for nearly all forms of damage and disorder within the body. And the mind, thanks for reminding me... rest assured I have a problem with that as well. besides, are the mind and soul even the same thing? Given the correlation between thoughts, philosophy, and the afterlife in FR and d&d in general, I'd say that even if they're not, the soul's susceptibility to the mind's influence is well established. insanity could very likely be rooted in the physical aspects of the brain, so once the soul is freed of the body, it very well could be freed of its mental disorders. Couldn't the same be argued for any aspect of personality or emotion? They are rooted within us physically, insofar as they can be decisively altered by physical or chemical interference. What would make insanity less resonant than other characteristics, then? only if the soul is fractured could different personalities go to different planes. this begs the question does multiple personality disorder split the soul? That would be my general preference, given sufficient development of the various personalities, of course. In a cosmology where creeds and perception can measurably influence the hereafter, why shouldn't emergent personas harbor the potential to be as real as the ones that they hatch from? it doesn't necessarily have to, not according to anything I've read other than some people's opinions, and no one's opinion is more valid than anyone else's. Yet there are objectively discernible qualities to any given opinion; the possibilities they stifle or egender being my principle basis for response (aside from the mild affront to my aesthetic, anyway.) anyway, how about contributing to the subject more constructively rather than just shooting down my ideas individually? its Rest assured, if I saw anything I could deem salvageable in your approach I'd have addressed it accordingly. That said, I believe I explained the reasons behind my airing of grievances/criticism but I do agree that it was an unnecessary indulgence, what with this thread and its responses not existing for my sake alone (regrettably.) Still, I'll ask you this: what do you think your approach would add over those that afford the potential for dispersal and thus the effort of individual growth or mutual reincorporation?
Old Sparky 05-07-06, 11:51 PM	Couldn't the same be argued for any aspect of personality or emotion? They are rooted within us physically, insofar as they can be decisively altered by physical or chemical interference. What would make insanity less resonant than other characteristics, then? That would be my general preference, given sufficient development of the various personalities, of course. In a cosmology where creeds and perception can measurably influence the hereafter, why shouldn't emergent personas harbor the potential to be as real as the ones that they hatch from? Here's a thought, petitioners seem ignorant of their mortal lives. The soul, once separated from the physical body, maintains the essence of the character but not their memories. That being the case, I'd say that lends some credibility toward S_M's ideas. Your's, on the other hand, seem based entirely in your personal preferences. I mean, come on... "One could, but where's the fun in that? It's needlessly optimistic, gratuitously pat. People should suffer until they muster the will or clarity to suffer no more; having death super-glue their fractured psyche back together, or otherwise ameliorate any other internal conflict/trauma trivializes resolve, choices, and history that would otherwise be instrumental to their definition as man or spirit." Needlessly optimistic? People should suffer? It sounds to me like you've got more of a skewed perspective on afterlife issues and that makes your opinions less than useful for me. Thanks for sharing, though.
Vasyek 05-08-06, 12:29 AM	Here's a thought, petitioners seem ignorant of their mortal lives. The soul, once separated from the physical body, maintains the essence of the character but not their memories. That being the case, I'd say that lends some credibility toward S_M's ideas. They are ignorant of the particulars of their mortal lives, but shaped by their experiences through them nontheless. Petitioners and outsiders may well maintain peculiarities in perspective/behavior that were developed from their forgotten pasts, their obsessions and aversions can be obliquely keyed to defining moments in their lives, and those who knew them as mortals may instill a vague sense of familiarity within them. And there are those who do not lose their memories or have them returned to them by their gods/rulers. That being the case, I don't see how his ideas as to the transient physicality of madness are lent any credibility. Your's, on the other hand, seem based entirely in your personal preferences. I mean, come on... Indeed, they are entirely personal, but it's not as though I didn't amend them with reasoning which can be regarded in and of itself. Needlessly optimistic? People should suffer? It sounds to me like you've got more of a skewed perspective on afterlife issues and that makes your opinions less than useful for me. Thanks for sharing, though. You're quite welcome. My views on what people do or don't deserve aside, do you agree that all unresolved conflicts/trials being cast aside in death is in any way productive from either a broader perspective or the god's own? Is the afterlife not a purification process in which the spirits grow closer to their faith/paradigms through personal conviction, enlightenment, and sacrifice?
Old Sparky 05-08-06, 01:14 AM	Nah.
Zsych 05-11-06, 08:30 PM	IMO, we tend to deal with different situations with different mindsets. Sometimes when you meet a friend you haven't seen for many years, you start using part of the behavior you had as friends back then. A different kind of personality in a way, a different older approach to friendship. I think that multiple personalities are essentially an extreme version of this situation. At any time some things are considered important and kept at the front of your thoughts, and some at the back so that you can't recall them(even if you can in other circumtances). With multiple personalities, a choice is made to ignore whole parts of the memory in decision making under certain circumstances. ... in other words, my opinion is that the soul is basically the same, just the way of dealing with the world is varying. I'd bet on either the dominant personality choosing the soul's fate, or the person having to be judged by Kelemvor, if he has no specific dominant faith. Adherence to allied dieties should be less of a problem than adherence to opposed dieties IMO.
Herobane 05-11-06, 09:04 PM	-I've never met anyone with Multiple-Personality Disorder, and it's been a while since I studied it in AP Psychology, a few years back. Is insanity neccesary? I'm sure that it is possible for a person to be perfectly normal, asides for the fact that they suddenly switch between different identities. We've got MPD! We swear! We swear to Tempus that we do!
Zsych 05-14-06, 02:52 PM	I recall you were the guy talking about worshipping FR dieties, so i may actually believe you :)
ywhtptgtfo 05-14-06, 07:05 PM	I'd say each personality is one aspect of the person as a whole, and whichever god is closest overall average of all the personalities together determines their fate in the afterlife. I partially agree and disagree. Assuming each soul has a distinct nature, each different personality will be given a different weight when two aspects join together. The aspect that's the closest to the soul's preference will likely have the strongest influence. As a result, it probably would not be simply the average of the personalities.
Herobane 05-15-06, 10:16 PM	I recall you were the guy talking about worshipping FR dieties, so i may actually believe you :) Damn straight. ;)