Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Simbul 04-09-05, 03:04 AM	I was reading over Unapproachable East the other day, and taking note of the many geographical barriers that lie between Thay and Aglarond, Rashemen and Thay, Thay and Mulhorand, etc, etc. Aglarond and Thay are separated by the Umber Marches, the Tannath Mountains, and the thirty mile long seamless Watchwall created by the Galeb Duhr. Rashemen and Thay are separated by the Gorge of Gauros and other features, while Mulhorand is virtually incapable of invading Thay due to similar geographic chokepoints. In addition Thay itself is protected by virture of the majority of the nation lying upon a plateau with very few passes by which it can be entered. While all of the above is very interesting, and provides a logical explanation for the existing borders, it is virtually useless in a campaign setting where magic is as common as drinking water. Exactly how is a 30ft high 10ft wide wall going to stop a nation full of wizards from invading? Aside from spells like Fly, Mass Fly, Disintergrate, Stone Shape, Passwall, etc, there are also the numerous flying mounts the Thayans use. In addition, a wall, gorge, mountain range, or residing on a plateaus isnt going to do much against portals or teleportation either. Arguebaly any city in the realms could be besieged from within using a simple Teleportation Circle, unless we are to assume that every major metropolis in existance has a Weirdstone, a Mythal that aroints Teleportation spells or has a prevalent Dimensional Lock, or half a dozen overlapping Forbiddance effects cast on it. How do we go about creating defenses for cities, castles, forts, and keeps in a world where people can fly (or ride mounts that can), walk-through-walls, blow them up, or simply materialize out of thin air? While a 12th century castle-keep may be a nice aesthetic form of architechture for the realms, to give it a European-esque feel, it is hardly a viable defensive structure given the large numbers of flying monsters and magical abilities available in the world at hand....
GothWulf 04-09-05, 03:20 AM	<SNIP> How do we go about creating defenses for cities, castles, forts, and keeps in a world where people can fly (or ride mounts that can), walk-through-walls, blow them up, or simply materialize out of thin air? While a 12th century castle-keep may be a nice aesthetic form of architechture for the realms, to give it a European-esque feel, it is hardly a viable defensive structure given the large numbers of flying monsters and magical abilities available in the world at hand.... LOTS of catapults and ballista, IMO Wulfe
Another Gnome 04-09-05, 04:06 AM	Teleporting armies is the nuclear weapon of Faerūn; every country has it, nobody uses it. And when there aren't that many wizards able to cast tele-circle or create a portal, it's easy to determine who pushed the button, which in turn gets things back to the status quo of the high and mighty. Say Thay decided to conquer Aglarond by surprise attack via teleporting in every major city. Chances are the Simbul's residence is a tad better protected against such tactics, so she'd likely survive and have little problem licking any wounds she might suffer. Now then, Simbul my dear, if you were the Thayan archmage responsible for teleporting troops in, would you push the Simbul against the wall up to a point where she has nothing left to lose and has a good idea of who's responsible? A shaky explanation, of course, but enough to keep me from losing my sleep over it. :)
Preternatural 04-09-05, 03:44 PM	The various armies of the Realms likely still use a large number of conventional troops. Magic is like modern technology, and mages and various fantasy creatures are like our fighter planes and cruise missiles. Sure they blow up a lot of stuff, but even today, if you don't have physical troops on the ground, the territory isn't yours, it's nice and charred and burned, but it's not yours. You still need your orcish hordes or legion of shining knights to hold the territory and eventually subjugate or convert the residents. Then again, some of the more magic heavy places might have magic walls that are more difficult to disintegrate, etc. And what's to say defending city or what have you doesn't have their own magic users or other people to kill your magic users. If it wears a funny hat and no armor into battle, kill it first. If it wears plate armor emblazoned with some holy symbol and starts praying, kill it first. Like today, we have AAA guns, SAM and Patriot missiles to defend against incoming enemy fighters and missiles. Not to mention our own fighter jets which would get into dogfights (or the brief modern equivalent) which is like a mage duel. And like modern times, fighter jets and bombers (magic users) are more expensive and fewer in number than infantry (footmen) and tanks (cavalry). Training a fighter pilot probably takes a good deal more time and resources than a regular grunt.
Gray Richardson 04-09-05, 05:19 PM	Simbul, you have hit on a question that I too have pondered over the years. In a fantasy world with aerial combat, fortifications would necessarily have to consider attack from above as well as from the land. Walls would logicaly extend over and above a castle or settlement, so that you might end up with something like domed cities and castles. Or something like the Colliseum with retractable metal plating to act as a shield during wartime. We have examples from World War II of building bunkers and digging complexes underground. I think it likely a city might dig an extensive network of fortified catacombs below the town for when the populace needed a place to retreat to during times of aerial attack. Maybe this explains in part why so many races took up residence in the Underdark.
Nyat 04-09-05, 10:06 PM	This is why after much thinking I've decided that if my character ever gets a base of operation (other than the castle I just got out of a Deck of many things [which is now probably inhabited by Zents, damn Zents]) its going to be extradimensional. Oh, and dont forget the possibility of tunneling up under a city/fortress.
The Simbul 04-10-05, 12:46 AM	Teleporting armies is the nuclear weapon of Faerūn; every country has it, nobody uses it. And when there aren't that many wizards able to cast tele-circle or create a portal, it's easy to determine who pushed the button, which in turn gets things back to the status quo of the high and mighty. Say Thay decided to conquer Aglarond by surprise attack via teleporting in every major city. Chances are the Simbul's residence is a tad better protected against such tactics, so she'd likely survive and have little problem licking any wounds she might suffer. Now then, Simbul my dear, if you were the Thayan archmage responsible for teleporting troops in, would you push the Simbul against the wall up to a point where she has nothing left to lose and has a good idea of who's responsible? A shaky explanation, of course, but enough to keep me from losing my sleep over it. :)The randomly generated NPCs in an average metropolis in the realms will have four wizards whose character levels are 1d8 +12, and from the result of those rolls the levels of all other wizards in the community will be extrapolated. Likewise, a metropolis will have four Sorcerers whose level is 1d6 + 12, and so and and so forth for other spellcasting classes. These NPC's are above and beyond the named or special NPC's in a given community. The ability to cast a Teleportation Circle isnt limited to the listed and named NPC spellcasters, and the Thayans dont have to resort to a Zulkir or named NPC to create one. In addition, scrolls or castings of the afforementioned spell can effectively be purchased in virtually any sizable city. The Simbul can go cast a Legend Lore to find out what wizard cast the Teleportation Circle if she wants to, but chances are its going to be a little late by that point, and I imagine her attention will be elsewhere for some considerable time.
Another Gnome 04-10-05, 04:26 AM	The Simbul can go cast a Legend Lore to find out what wizard cast the Teleportation Circle if she wants to, but chances are its going to be a little late by that point, and I imagine her attention will be elsewhere for some considerable time. The Simbul example was precisely assuming it to be too late: Thay invades by means of powerful magic, takes the defenders by surprise, and reduces major cities to smoldering ruins. At that point vengeance would be all it's about, and chances are the Witch-Queen of Aglarond wouldn't be too careful about her aiming. Thus it's safer for the Zulkirs to use conventional troops and tactics, as it takes away attention from themselves, and the extended period of time of the attack is much less likely to invoke a sudden counter-reaction without any regard to it being potentially suicidal. Anyway, yeah, I didn't think of the level of arcane casters being higher in FR or the use of scrolls. But I didn't mean it as fool-proof explanation either. :)
Derren S. 04-10-05, 05:01 AM	The reason is imo that magic was not taken into account when the FR was made. The whole geography and society was build after an normal medival image and then magic was slapped on top of it.
JWSIII 04-10-05, 05:57 AM	CAstles are also woefully ineffective against having a wall of iron created at 2000 ft. - smouldering rubble level ineffective. Generally, my players are discouraged from doing this the same way that russia is discouraged from using nukes - it goes two ways. This, of course, means Thay wouldn't be constantly invading Aglorond, and I know this, the two theories aren't really compatible, but it is the theory I use to play the game with my inventive players. Heck, if you want to get really disgustingly sick, the dinosaur killer asteroid is estimated at 1 mile by 1 mile. Simply use proctivs move mountain, fly to 20 miles (approximate edge of atmosphere), and dispel magic. Enter new era in 10,000 years when the scattered remnants of humanity crawl out from under the latest ice age. Not sure how to reconcile all of this, mostly we just sweep it under the carpet to a degree and go for more traditional types magic/army combinations. (In fact, ALL reconciliation between the peasant base and the adventurer elite are nearly impossible - many adventurers have gear equaling the yearly income of an entire country of millions of people in the late epic levels... The peasant economy is effectively worthless in terms of purchasing; you will make VASTLY more as an adventurer than a duke minding vast estates... the weird disconnects are not in any way limited to war).
CzarGarrett 04-11-05, 09:03 AM	I think the limiting factor is cost. Sure, you could have an entire batallion of Gishes on Pegasi flying over the walls, but look at the cost. Training in martial combat, arcane studies, training the pegasi, training the gish to ride a flying horse, etc, etc. For the same cost, you'd be able to have half a dozen necromancers supporting a couple hundred light or medium infantry. Its the same reason why calvary was more the 'elite' units of Medieval armies and most of the time it was pure infantry.
dragonfriend 04-11-05, 09:24 AM	Ok, there are so many wizards and sorcerers...but who says tha every 16th level arcane caster has 16+ of intelligence. Teleport is a spell in the player's handbook...and we have also complete arcane, magic of faerun,. etc... a wizard knows only a limited number of spells. Think, magic is not so widespread in the Realms. And of all these wizards, sorcerers..and cleric, only a few want to go into a battle...it is better an army of 9 int 9 wis 1st level warriors
The Demonbinder of the Abyss 04-11-05, 09:42 AM	I always thought that the watch wall of Aglarond was to keep the undead from the Umber Marches (i think its this one) out of Aglarond, and to keep watch in case an army came from Thay. I don't think that the Simbul truely believes the wall will stop Thay from invading, more so just sound an alarm. Of course keeping the undead out I am sure was the main reason...
Nyat 04-11-05, 07:51 PM	I like to think that teleportation is merely for bad guys get aways and to make life easier for the PCs. So I like to imagine that outside of gameplay these kind of tactics aren't possible, it just makes it easier that way. Oh and... Ok, there are so many wizards and sorcerers...but who says tha every 16th level arcane caster has 16+ of intelligence. Teleport is a spell in the player's handbook...and we have also complete arcane, magic of faerun,. etc... a wizard knows only a limited number of spells. A caster wouldn't have made it to level 16 if its main casting stat wasn't higher than 16, especially after magic items. And wizards can write down a lot of spells in their spell books, sorcerers are the ones with a limited number of spells known. Think, magic is not so widespread in the Realms. :OMG! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: I'm not sure if that was supposed to be funny or what. But if you were saying that magic isn't widespread in the realms...well the mere idea is comical.
MaskedOne 04-11-05, 11:42 PM	How do we go about creating defenses for cities, castles, forts, and keeps in a world where people can fly (or ride mounts that can), walk-through-walls, blow them up, or simply materialize out of thin air? While a 12th century castle-keep may be a nice aesthetic form of architechture for the realms, to give it a European-esque feel, it is hardly a viable defensive structure given the large numbers of flying monsters and magical abilities available in the world at hand.... Flight can be met partially by arrows, dispellings, catapults and ranged spells and partially by the simple expedient of weather control. I'd expect that an army trying to fly through a hail storm or high winds will have a very bad day. Wards will protect the keeps, castles and fortifications to some extent. A layer of metal in a wall will also limit the efficiency of stone shape and render passwall worthless under 3E rules as neither have any effect on metal. Hmm, lead counts as a metal and also blocks some forms of divination. It sounds like a good choice of materials to me. Now, these defense while useful do not guarantee security. Any wall can be breached, any ward bypassed so the defenders will need to keep a couple reserve units and a very good watch on what occurs. If enemy forces can get past the defenses then a quick response may be sufficient to take them out and plug the breach in your defenses. Note also that teleporting into a building that is protected against scrying is also more difficult. You need to be familiar with a place to teleport to it. As I doubt the armies of Aglarond provide tours of their facilities to Thayans, the wizards working the spells will have to play spy before they can send anyone into a building protected against scrying and that comes with risks. Cities are far more difficult to protect but they are also far less useful to assault. Teleporting an army into a city is tricky business. You will be noticed soon enough and once you are then you have a problem. All it takes is to find where the enemy forces are coming in and cutting them of from support becomes very easy. Let's take the Thayan example. Some moron decides to use teleport circles to bring in a lot of troops quickly. Where do they want to come out? In the street, if they're spotted then guards will arive soon after and all it takes is a well placed dimensional lock, forbiddance or a large object to cut them of from their support. If they try for a building then the easiest way to prevent access is simply to have a mage knock it down. Teleporting into a solid object doesn't work. Coming out of a teleport 20 ft up over a pile of rubble when you expected to be in the second floor of a building should should hurt like hell. Anyone want see if cellars survive the building above dropping and how much fun getting out of said cellars will be? Teleportation effects can provide ways to deal massive damage to a city but don't expect to get an army in. Special ops teams, assassins, spies and wizards certainly but infantry and cavalry is not going to happen. Mundane defenses alone aren't enough against enemies with powerful magic but careful construction, combined with the right magic of your own and a well trained and organized military should hold against most enemies. A careful watch on the opposition will do the same. If you can catch them preparing then you can potentially prepare to both meet the initial assault and deliver a counter-attack to their home. Right then, there endeth my short rant. Hopefully, some of it was useful.
Nyat 04-11-05, 11:49 PM	But none of the defenses you mentioned would be able to protect against disintegrate spells (aka wall-be-gone) and you underestimate Thay's ability to use wizards. If they went in with teleportation circles the red wizards could use the vast magic at their disposal to obliterate everything nearby, even guards. And by this point the only way to launch an effective counterattack would be by throwing even more mages at them.
MaskedOne 04-12-05, 12:11 AM	It became impossible to ward a wall a against Disintegrate, when? I mentioned warding for a reason. I'm not idiotic enough to believe that it can be utterly ignored. As for the destructive power of Thay's mages, that type of trick can cause a lot of damage but in the end they are still poorly supported troops far behind enemy lines and the opposition is not exactly made up of cultists who refuse to wield magic. They're dangerous but unless the Zulkirs can work together and feel like coming to play, the attackers are still going to die. Finally every high powered wizard playing re-usable cruise missile inside Aglarond is one that is not defending Thay from external threats or defending their own holdings from underlings or rivals. If the high level wizards of Thay could work together and trust their underlings and anyone left behind then maybe depending on the strength of Aglarond's spellcasters they could destroy a city. It would be very risky for them to try it though and I'm not betting on it happening.
Nyat 04-12-05, 12:39 AM	I frankly don't know much about Warding as I have never really paid much attention to it, so I missed that. You would need to remember to ward the ground under the wall too for obvious reasons (when the ground beneath the while vanishes, guess what happens to the wall). And I'm pretty sure Thay has a larger number of mages than Aglarond and would have the advantage there. But at the very least warring nations could use teleportation circles for guerrilla warfare, port in a troop of mages that unload all their most destructive spells as fast as possible and then port back. And I just remembered my favorite spell ever. I wonder if any of the Zulkirs happen to have a scroll of Apocolypse from the Sky lying around :devil:
Derren S. 04-12-05, 01:49 AM	About which Wards are you talking? It sounds nic in theory, but there are no such wards as you desribe them in D&D to my knowledge.
dragonfriend 04-12-05, 02:25 AM	A caster wouldn't have made it to level 16 if its main casting stat wasn't higher than 16, especially after magic items. And wizards can write down a lot of spells in their spell books, sorcerers are the ones with a limited number of spells known. :OMG! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: I'm not sure if that was supposed to be funny or what. But if you were saying that magic isn't widespread in the realms...well the mere idea is comical. 16+ is a very high stat, not everyone could have it so I think that a certain number of wizards (and sorcerers) in the Realms would advance to high levels even if they don't have high stats. And, I know there is a lot of magic in the Realms but not in every day life, it is more an adventurer point of view. :D
MaskedOne 04-12-05, 03:01 AM	About which Wards are you talking? It sounds nic in theory, but there are no such wards as you desribe them in D&D to my knowledge. Provided that no one objects to my classifying a wall as an object and that Disintegrate keeps the saving throw in 3.5 then Augment Object from the Stronghold Builder's Guide cast by a high level character provides a limited defense against Disintegrate. Other spells, items or wall augmentations could concievably be of use (probably of more use) as well. I'd look for them but its almost 3 in the morning and I'm done for the night. I'm not referring to a specific Ward. I'm using the word as a general term for protective magic and there is a great deal of that in D&D. It's just a matter of knowing what to look for.
Bloodtide_the_Red 04-12-05, 03:08 AM	This is more of a question of Game World vs. Real World. The Game world is set up to have a game in it, naturaly. A Real World is realistic. I can see three big points here. 1)Average Ability Scores are 10-11. That's like 80% of the world. The Players and the NPC's they fight are the exceptions. Everyone else in the world is an average bland unnoteworthy nobody. The Realms would be full of 10 and 11 Int wizards. Yes, they suck(and are 'unplayable characters' to most), but they are there and make up a bulk of the population. You don't see theas folks in the books, naturaly, because they are boring. And yes, there would be 'dumb' wizards...ones with Int's of like 13, so that even though they are 10th level, they can't use higher level spells. 2)As Gamers, we get the gods eye view of everything. We can easly say that a character takes this feat and that or gets this spell. It's a bit harder, for real. A Relams character can't just open a book and say 'oh I will learn how to do that'. They have to do it all the hard way. 3)Time. In the Game it's quite easy for the PC's to go up a couple levels per game year....at least. Generaly, a Pc gets to 20th level way before their characters 25th birthday. It's rare to even see a PC over the age of 30...yet it's quite common to see a Pc of level 20+. In the real Realms, it takes a life time to get levels, not a couple days. We don't know many birthdates...but we have at least one good example. King Azoun was born in 1307, and he was a 20th level fighter when he died in 1371 at age 64. So if he could have gotten thoes 20 levels before his 25th birthday...he'd be more like 100 th level when he died. Remember that 3E is more about 'just the players', then making a complete world. They dropped all the non comabt non adventure stuff to make the game 'more fun'. BT
dragonfriend 04-12-05, 05:52 AM	quote everything :) Bloodtide
CzarGarrett 04-12-05, 10:31 AM	I think we're forgetting the Domino effect. Thay attempts to invade Algarond, big time. The Simbul calls for aide. Lets say that troops from Comyr, Waterdeep, and the Silver Marches go to help Algarond. Sembia takes advantage of Comyr's lessened troops. Obould expands strength in the Silver Marches. Waterdeep gets harassed by pirates. Mullhondi goes after Thay. Unther tries to hit Mullhondi. Neighboring nations take advantage of weakened nations. Adventurers run around fighting everywhere. Its a complete mess. And no one really wants that.
BrianCritchley 04-12-05, 02:55 PM	also, let's keep in mind that teleporting while effecdtive for strike teams isn't hugely effective in terms of armies. a teleportation circle has a 5 foot radius. being GENEROUS thats 25-30 people that can be teleported I belive (more like 6). now then, a nation only has so many 18th+ level wizards (how many realms in FR have more then 2 or 3 metroplises?) now then. an attacking nation will certinly use this to teleport "strike parties" to key areas. but this isn't hugely reliable. thuws you're gonna have to attack via conventional means as well. further more, the nation your attacking is going to have wizards whose soul job is to PREVENT teleportation, and of coruse the real important aeras are gonna be warded I mean... show of hands here people, who here doesn't think the symbul wards her palace agaisnt teleportation magic? hmm nobody? didn't think so. now, in the event a single nation has MUCH more magical power then a rival we might see a quick "magical strike" however if their magical power is roughly equal you get stale mate and physical armies of course being important. you'll note all the major powerplayer nations in faerun all have large numbers of spellcasters
Nyat 04-12-05, 07:29 PM	1)Average Ability Scores are 10-11. That's like 80% of the world. The Players and the NPC's they fight are the exceptions. Everyone else in the world is an average bland unnoteworthy nobody. The Realms would be full of 10 and 11 Int wizards. Yes, they suck(and are 'unplayable characters' to most), but they are there and make up a bulk of the population. You don't see theas folks in the books, naturaly, because they are boring. And yes, there would be 'dumb' wizards...ones with Int's of like 13, so that even though they are 10th level, they can't use higher level spells. With an intelligence of 10 a wizard would only be able to cast 0-level spells, with an intelligence of 11 the wizard could cast level 1 spells. Explain to me how this wizard manages to gain levels. Th thing is, NPCs gain levels in one of two ways, adventuring (which they would have no chance in hell if they had an intelligence to low to cast their spells) or studying/practicing (which they again would be incapable of with such low int, they just wouldn't be able to grasp the finer parts of wizardry). Any character of 10th level or higher is considered a high level character, they aren't normal people, thats why they will have higher than average stats, especially since they will have access to magic items (see preconstructed NPCs in the DMG). A 10th level wizard with an int of 13 is like a 10th level fighter that was born without arms, it requires some major explanation. 3)Time. In the Game it's quite easy for the PC's to go up a couple levels per game year....at least. Generaly, a Pc gets to 20th level way before their characters 25th birthday. It's rare to even see a PC over the age of 30...yet it's quite common to see a Pc of level 20+. In the real Realms, it takes a life time to get levels, not a couple days. We don't know many birthdates...but we have at least one good example. King Azoun was born in 1307, and he was a 20th level fighter when he died in 1371 at age 64. So if he could have gotten thoes 20 levels before his 25th birthday...he'd be more like 100 th level when he died. I only have my 3.0 books at hand so these numbers will be from those books, I'm pretty sure they are the same or at least close enough though. Level 20 is 190,000xp so for the basis of this he had 190,000xp at the age of 20 and lets just assume he would gain the same amount of xp it had previously taken him 64 years in just 44. That would put him at 380,000xp which would be level 27, not 100. To get to level 100 he would need 4,929,000xp and would thus need to get experience 25.9 times faster than he actually did, which is absurd.
The Simbul 04-13-05, 11:58 AM	NPCs with adventurer class levels use the elite ability score array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8), and the pregenerated statistics for nameless and inconsequential NPCs with class levels are fully detailed in the Dungeon Master's Guide. In fact, even some NPC's with NPC class levels (like all the 1st level humanoid Warriors in the MM) use the elite ability score array. The "ability array" of 10,11,10... is intended to cover the 1st level commoners who will never advance and make up the overhwlming majority of the world's population. NPCs with adventurer class levels do not fall into this category. The randomly generated NPC Wizards in a FR Metropolis represent only an elite fraction of the cities population, and as such will have an elite ability score array. As for the capacity of a Teleportation Circle, it has a duration of 10 minutes per level. 10 rounds = 1 minute, so we can easily teleport a large number of elite warriors per casting, and a spellcaster can always cast the spell multiple times since it is dependent on concentration.
Bloodtide_the_Red 04-13-05, 10:19 PM	-----With an intelligence of 10 a wizard would only be able to cast 0-level spells, with an intelligence of 11 the wizard could cast level 1 spells. Explain to me how this wizard manages to gain levels.............. Now I'm not saying theas characters would not suck.....they would suck huge time. I do think they make up a huge chunk of the world. Do I think that their would be a 12th level wizard with a Int of 10 who simply sits around and casts his 0 level spells. ---adventuring (which they would have no chance in hell if they had an intelligence to low to cast their spells)...... Not exactly true. He could easy adventure with a powerful group and get --group XP. Or he could go on very easy adventures...lots and lots of them. ---studying/practicing Well, he could do this. Sure he is not a good student or anything....but it will get him XP. And there is 'other' XP. Like all the bonus stuff in the DMG, such as getting XP for ideas or such. ---A 10th level wizard with an int of 13 is like a 10th level fighter that was born without arms, it requires some major explanation. Or maybe a 10th level fighter with a Str of 11. Sure he'd suck at combat, but he still be there, filling out the world. I think a 'dumb' wizard could be just happy making potions of 0level spells. BT
Argent 04-14-05, 12:08 AM	A partial reason for mundane defenses comes from an item that has been around since 2nd ed. The Wierdstone. It stops all divination and teleportation spells, spell like effects, supernatural abilities, or like abilities from functioning in a SIX MILE RADIUS. That is over 110 square miles of land that is protected. Yes the item costs 250,000 GP, but bear with me and take out a map of the city you live in and draw a six mile radius circle around the center of downtown. Now unless you live in an older european city or a densely populated area like Manhattan, you might not realize how many people can live inside city walls encompassing this space. Now with a city like Velprintalar (pop. 66,000+), a one-time property tax of 0.1% would bring in more than enough money for a single Wierdstone. So it would be easy to assume that if needed the city could acquire one. So for an army to spy or arrive, some walking must be involved. Hence the need for walls and gates For dealing with Thay's flying mounts, you'll notice that Aglarond has its own flying cavalry. Flying cavalry is something that is assumed to be rather expensive. Consider the analog to US Air Force Pilots. The price of the planes not withstanding, it costs taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars just to train a single fighter pilot. Are aerial troops highly beneficial, yes. But training an entire army of them how to fly and fight at the same time on mainly carniverous animals that are larger than they are (like griffons, giant eagles, etc). is likely to be cost prohibitative. So many countries (Waterdeep, Evereska, Aglarond, etc.) maintain small groups of troops with such training, but it isn't given out willy nilly. Fly spells seem to be problematic, but still face a numerical and timing restriction. Pre Epic, Wind walk can get seven people, and Fly lasts 1 minute/level moving at around 10 mph. Overland Flight would be better, but its range is personal. Figuring that a country is attacking one with similar population base, spell casters are likely to use dispel magic and the like to bring the opponents to the ground. Wile the enemy is slowly floating down, rater helpless to move about, archers and spell casters can pepper the attacker full of missiles from the cover of their towers. This gets me to one of the best reasons for mundane defenses-cover/concealment. Firing wands/arrows from behind an arrow slit gives you many benefits. It doesn't matter wether your attacker is airborne or moving on the ground. They have a harder time of hitting you. Archers also help when it comes to invading armies with disintegrate. Disintegrate is a medium range spell. (100 ft+10 ft/lv). Longbows have a 100 ft. range increment. With a maximum of ten range increments, there is a range of 700 ft. that the wizard must cross before being able to unleash his disintegrate spell. If you want to build a 12 ft. thick stone dome over the city and cast hardness on it so it has 920 hp per ten foot section with a hardness of 30, do so, but realize too that people need to live there. By means of example: I just finished building a vault for a party stronghold that needed to hold some evil artifacts as well as our normal loot. I could have made it more secure, but it still needed to be accessable, and sometimes utility has to come before defense. If you are still looking at ways of fortifying a city/medieval castle, I would suggest checking out the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook, the section on Lair Wards in the Draconomicon, and Dragon #325.
Nyat 04-14-05, 12:33 AM	-----With an intelligence of 10 a wizard would only be able to cast 0-level spells, with an intelligence of 11 the wizard could cast level 1 spells. Explain to me how this wizard manages to gain levels.............. Now I'm not saying theas characters would not suck.....they would suck huge time. I do think they make up a huge chunk of the world. Do I think that their would be a 12th level wizard with a Int of 10 who simply sits around and casts his 0 level spells. See what the symbol said, people with class levels are not normal people, they are elites ---adventuring (which they would have no chance in hell if they had an intelligence to low to cast their spells)...... Not exactly true. He could easy adventure with a powerful group and get --group XP. Or he could go on very easy adventures...lots and lots of them. No group would let them tag along and get XP, because this character is effectively a commoner with better skills and 0-level spells, every group would ditch him. And he would not get XP for the adventures he would be capable of. ---studying/practicing Well, he could do this. Sure he is not a good student or anything....but it will get him XP. And there is 'other' XP. Like all the bonus stuff in the DMG, such as getting XP for ideas or such. Getting up to level 10+ on bonus XP assigned by the DM is highly unlikely. Maybe if this character drew from a deck of many things repeatedly and got very very lucky. ---A 10th level wizard with an int of 13 is like a 10th level fighter that was born without arms, it requires some major explanation. Or maybe a 10th level fighter with a Str of 11. Sure he'd suck at combat, but he still be there, filling out the world. I think a 'dumb' wizard could be just happy making potions of 0level spells. No, a 10th level wizard with int 11 cannot compare to a level 10 fighter with 11 strength. The fighter can still use his weapons, the mage can't use his spells (except for first and 0-level...).
The Simbul 04-14-05, 12:43 AM	Well the Weirdstone really should have been a minor artifact, given that a six mile radius Dimensional Lock would either require applying the benefits of Widen Spell several thousand times (which actually isnt possible), and its powers effectively rival a minor mythal. That said, it isnt the most viable of options, especially when you need to make use of teleportation yourself. But as I stated earlier, I don't imagine every single city in the realms has a Weirdstone, Mythal, or multiple overlapping Forbiddance spells, and if they do then perhaps its a sign of a problem with the Teleportation rules. While I imagine the Simbul's Palace is warded against teleportation (either through magic items, Wondrous Architechture, a Wizardly Mythal, etc), I think if any city-wide wards existed they would have been mentioned specifically in Unapproachable East. Likewise it would be assumed that if any other cities has specific defenses that they would mention them if/when such cities are written up in sourcebooks. On a side nore, while Aglarond has a Griffonrider prestige class, the griffonriding legions of Thay outnumber Aglaronds Griffonriders 5 to 1. Now of course quality and quantity are not the same thing, but those are still difficult odds to defend against.
Argent 04-14-05, 10:47 AM	I'm not about to argue with you that wierdstone should have been a minor artifact or had a much smaller range. But if you want to get around it, cast a sending and tell a guard to turn it off for a few rounds. Maybe countries use something similar to a sliding DEFCON scale or even an often mentioned bizzarrely color coded one. Based on current political situations, countries activate or deactivate certain wardings and effects. I agree that most cities should have had a write up of any applicable city wide defense networks, but look at the write-ups on cities that have large wardings. I never remember there being a mythal effect in Waterdeep that holds up the plateau it rests on in 2nd ed. or most of 3rd for that matter, but one arrived in Lost Empires. Silverymoon was first warded and now has a full fledged Mythal. Volo's Guides (from 2nd ed.) were full of places that had wardings. Wards and the like are probably not written up because a good ward is one that most people won't notice. In the US, the National Security Agency's computers sort through millions of e-mails, phone conversations, etc. The FBI makes a record if you withdraw or deposit more than $5,000 cash from the bank to watch for money laundering or drug dealing. Credit card companies track individual purchasing habits and look for a sudden shift to guard against fraud and theft. Most people feel very comfortable going through their lives without worrying about such defense and intelligence gathering tasks because they have no impact on legitimate daily activities, and are in many cases beneficial to your average citizen. With ready access to defensive spells, most modest sized metropolises likely have some form of warding and intel gathering capabilities. Zentil Keep may rely on human spies to check up on strangers in the city, but wouldn't the Zhents have an easier time just bugging (via scrying sensors) all the rooms at all of the inns in the city; thus being abile to gather more intel and helping them in trade negotiations, etc. Back to Aglarond, I like to give it the analogy of Israel. A nation that borders the sea, has distant allies that don't adjoin its borders, and has hostile territory on its doorstep that it must maintain constant vigilance against. In 1948, six nations attacked the fledgeling State of Israel in hopes of annihilating it. Israel gained territory and annexed 20% of the west bank in the conflict, through good intel and utilizing trained troops-many having arrived following conflicts in WW II. In 1967, this small country attacked two of its neighbors-Jordan and Egypt-and ended up with the entire Sinai Peninsula. Well trained troops, and good intelligence (which Aglarond is often depicted as having-see the old novel Red Magic by Jean Rabe) are very good guages of the ability of one state to assert military dominance over another, despite numerical strength. Even during the recent Intifadah, Israel manages to make well coordinated strikes against Hamas, Al'Aska Martyrs Brigade, etc., but the other groups, often due to infighting, are often unable to undertake attacks on the IDF. The situation between Thay and Aglarond may be somewhat analogous. The Symbul is a singular, powerful, highly charismatic leader with an established chain of command. Thay's forces are spread out among competitive Zulkirs who look out for their own intrests, often above those of national well being. Unlike Israel, which was founded recently, Aglarond has been around for centuries. Both share a history of powerful empires and have had a chance to capitolize on natural defenses. Aglarond's is the Yuirwood. Its description talks of old enchantments and strong magics, but leaves specifics up to the DM. It has been hinted that some of these effects block or re-route divinations--a tremendous asset to a nation that has to worry about an empire of wizards scrying on it.
The Simbul 04-14-05, 01:53 PM	Well I never insinuated that Aglarond is defenseless, and I am aware of numerous real world examples of seemingly weaker nations overcoming impossible odds (although I would contend that in the current era Israel is by far more the goliath than the david in every aspect of military might other than their national size). My contention of a Weirdstone not being useful or likely in Velprintalar is due to the fact that the Simbul repeatedly makes use of teleportation magic within her palace and to enter in or out of it, often to the suprise of her on hand guards and apprentices. In addition, the inability to use scrying magic prevents the Simbul and her guards and handmaidens from finding would-be spies or assasins who might be in Velprintalar itself. In the latter case they would not know why the divination was blocked, for there are numerous locations in the east that block divination (scrying) spells.
ClobberinTime 04-14-05, 02:52 PM	The novel Last Mythal shows a number of cases which ring true from game mechanics limiting the usefulness of both teleport and of flying. First off the main reason you don't just fly or teleport a 10% or 20% chunk of your army into enemy territory is the first maxim of war- Never divide your forces. Splitting an army into parts can make it easier to take apart piecemial, and eliminates one of the big advantages of having grunts, i.e. its hard to spot the wizards from the soldiers. 2, Flying is way overrated, you have no cover at all, true it eliminates the cover of walls but it also exposes a part of your army to attack. As a defender you should focus on the flying part of the army first. 3, Teleport can be a mixed blessing, in last Mythal a bunch of demons/loths use teleport to attack weak points in the enemy line, problem is it was a ruse and the defending forces were ready for them and pounced on them with superior non teleporting numbers and forced a retreat. If you can bring a larger force down on the teleporting force when they jump in then you can wipe them out. the best thing a fantasy army can have is lots of low level spell casters with a thousand wands of fb and lb with like 5 charges each at the lowest level to make them affordable. Also javelins of lightning or javelins of FB are great also. In fantasy battles like in real war the goal is to destroy the other guys army more than it is to hold territory, territory will be lost, let the RWizards take over your trap ridden palace, or gather there and set of an epic RW slaying spell, then take out their army.
Argent 04-14-05, 07:05 PM	Well I never insinuated that Aglarond is defenseless, and I am aware of numerous real world examples of seemingly weaker nations overcoming impossible odds (although I would contend that in the current era Israel is by far more the goliath than the david in every aspect of military might other than their national size). Besides just land mass, the IDF is smaller than the armed forces of Syria at a 1:3 margin and Egypt at about the same degree. When you look at the armies of Syria, Jordan, and Egypt combined, the forces are at a 1:7 disadvantage. What makes them a military goliath is the defense spending, training, and intelligence capabilities. But I digress... My contention of a Weirdstone not being useful or likely in Velprintalar is due to the fact that the Simbul repeatedly makes use of teleportation magic within her palace and to enter in or out of it, often to the suprise of her on hand guards and apprentices. The Simbul likely doesn't have a Wierdstone guarding the palace and Velprintalar, but she likely has some type of similar wards that are more tailored to her needs. Surprising your apprentices by teleportation when you're an archmage either means that you have apprentices who are easily surprised by the use of a rudimentary (at least for the Simbul) spell, or they have the impression that such spells aren't supposed to work there--a much more likely situation for the Simbul's palace. Just like the forbiddance spell can be tailored to alignment and passwords, it is likely that the wardings in use by the Simbul don't affect certain individuals. There are many examples of people becoming "attuned" to warding magics, and thus being able to avoid some or all of the strictures normally imposed on individuals. The Spellguard of Silverymoon is an example where a mythal is used, but it is likely that less powerful spells can be fashioned to accomidate users as well. Wierdstone, forbiddance, dimensional lock, guards and wards, etc. aren't the be all and end all of protective magics. They are just the ones that you can errect quickly and are most commonly utilized. With the resources that a kingdom, country, or epic level character has at their disposal, creating custom magics that might have hour or week long casting times is not out of the question. Hallaster Blackcloak teleports about Undermountain with ease, despite all of the magics that otherwise make it unsafe for almost everyone else. He has worked on the wards that he installed so that he himeslf is immune to many of their effects. Why can't the Simbul or any other ruler do the same. Having a high level wizard(s) working on your defenses for decades provides you with an enormous homefield advantage when it comes to foiling a number of specific types of spells, but unless you have mythal scope defenses, it still won't turn away the rampaging army of orcs, shambling mounds, or dragons. At best your defenses may slow them down for a bit. In this gap fit the mundane defenses. Walls and missile fire slow down invaders much more at this point. Can a series of well placed disintegrate spells take out a section of wall? Undoubtably, Yes. But so can a number of well placed stones hurled by 1st level warriors utilizing a catapult. Since there are many more 1st level warriors than 11th level wizards, the object of mundane defenses it to account for that fact. It is about mitigating the risks. The cost of errecting a stone wall to keep out your average orc horde is likely much less than errecting a mythal to keep out high level wizards and their lackeys that are of an alignment opposed to yours. Since there are more orcs that will inflict a far greater amount of damage on the general populace than there are wizards, mundane defenses function as a good military strategy.
The Simbul 04-15-05, 12:33 AM	Deleted post, dont want to take this thread seriously off topic.
Derren S. 04-15-05, 01:53 AM	Argent, which wards are you talking about? In D&D highe level wards don't exist. Or at least I don't know of them so please which items spells do you mean when you say "ward"?
Argent 04-15-05, 02:27 AM	-Derren The "wards" I'm taking about were a concept presented by Ed Greenwood in the Volo's guide books from 2nd ed. Notably Volo's Guide to The North and Volo's Guide to Cormyr. The first book presented a 7th level wizard spell that allowed the caster to have permanent magical effects guard a specifically designated area. People that posessed special "ward tokens" could pass through the spell's area unaffected. Those without tokens could find that a wall of force keeps appearing to block their way or that monsters suddenly teleport to their vicinity. This spell has yet to be updated for 3.5, and likely will never see print as a castable spell, due to the complicated mechanics...which is too bad really. Both of the aforementioned books are available for free download on the Wizard's Website: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads
Myssa Rei 04-15-05, 02:27 AM	Getting up to level 10+ on bonus XP assigned by the DM is highly unlikely. Maybe if this character drew from a deck of many things repeatedly and got very very lucky. Now, this is pretty problematic for a campaign that is based on battles and encounters, but in a campaign like Ed Greenwood's home realms campaigns this isn't necessarily the case. Case in point: no one among the Knights of Myth Drannor -- the characters of the players in Ed's campaign -- (except Dove) has ever gotten beyond level 17, even after more than 20 years of campaigning. Now, back to the topic. I'd support the fighter-pilot analogy when it comes to mundane defenses vs. magical might. Despite what we might commonly think, magic is expensive. It's always far more economical (and practical) to use non-magical means to accomplish an end. Even in societies steeped in magic (such as the Elves, the Thayvians, or the folk from Rashemen) turn to mundane means. A friend of mine once said that spells eventually run out, but swords and arrows can go on as long as the arms that wield them can. I'd imagine in a 'standard' army in Faerun (or anywhere else for that matter), spellcasters would account for less than 20% of its total number, and of those 20%, possibly only 5% is more powerful than level 11. And it's quite possible that those 20% won't even be on the front line; they'd be the ones blasting openings in an opposing army's line, but they won't follow the charge in. There are special cases, of course. Like in the Elven Crusader described in the Forsaken House novel, where the spellcasters were seeded amongst the fighter-types.
Sephyr 04-15-05, 02:07 PM	Don't forget one of the more important issues with invasions (something the U.S. really needed to think about)... knowing how to get back out. You send a 1000 of your men teleporting in, with a wizard, if the wizard dies, those guys are done for. Also, it's extremely important to keep a supply chain flowing. Otherwise, no food or equipment, even if the men can loot, your army will quickly break down into chaos. Now, let's think in fantasy perspective. There are SO many contingency spells out there, if I was playing as the Simbul, I would lay over all sorts of programmed illusions, warning triggers, clerics' divinations, etc. The moment a Red Wizard enters my lands, I will know. How long would it take her to defeat that wizard? 10 rounds or less? Considering all this, having your men fly or teleport into an enemy territory that is just as magically infused as your territory poses TOO MANY uncertainties. Perhaps that's why all the monsters like to stay in place? It's a scary, scary world out there. :P I just also wanted to add, that you're all thinking in terms of a single battle. That's not going to happen. An invasion, no matter HOW powerful your army is, is going to take many many battles because the territory demands it. People will hide, people will fight back. It's not going to finish in 1 hour. It'll take months. Flying/teleporting can maybe hit them hard and fast, but it's not substantial enough to be worth it.
Weiser_Cain 04-15-05, 03:17 PM	Orcs can jus eat the local populace...
ElGrecoETAC 04-15-05, 05:38 PM	No offense, but I don't think the comparisons and analogies being used here are either accurate or relevant. I'll keep on with Thay and Aglarond, since it's the established discussion topic. Thay is the aggressor here, and is responsible for many invasions on Aglarond, as well as many other nations. The first part of the discussion--"why is there a need for mundane fortifications?"--is easy. They have them because the Thayans, like everyone else, maintain mundane weaponry and armies. But why do they maintain them? Well, for one thing, the leaders of Thay are evil. The Simbul is too powerful to be killed outright, and there is a checks-and-balances power play in place that prevents any one powerful Empire from flying off the handle too often. But that doesn't mean Thay will just leave Aglarond alone. So they send occasional armies of mortals and monsters and undead. To the Zulkirs, these are just resources, and resources are to be expended. And frankly, they strike me as the sort of cruel, despicable people, who would sent all sorts of soldiers, experimented-on creatures, and other assorted monstrosities to perish just to keep the Aglarondians on their toes, and to prevent them from making anything better of their nation. I certainly don't see Szass Tam or any of the other Zulkirs as nationalist or zealous enough to accompany these armies. They don't care for them--it's just a minor move in a greater chess game; a simple distraction. They might send minor magi or promising Red Wizards, but I would wager that this is more to test someone before giving them some higher station. So rather than having these "teleporting" or "gating" armies, you have these folks who use their spells to influence the key moment of the battle. Like someone else mentioned, they seek out the key nodes of a force to eliminate them, or use a powerful spell to influence the outcome. Sprouting a Wall of Stone, Fire, or Force to ruin the enemy's momentous heavy cavalry charge and thus ruin their battle plan, for example. Or secreting a line of a dozen 5th-6th level Wizards and having them simultaneously unleash a streak of fireballs on the enemy's main front right before the Thayan charge. Thus, you don't really have so many invading flying, gating, or teleporting armies that ignore terrain and fortifications. They do show their face in Realms Lore, infrequently, but good nations rarely commit to such outright warfare, and leaders of evil ones often worry too much about the potential cost to themselves. Walls and fortifications, therefore, maintain their usefulness. Bottom line, the sort of important Red Wizards who pull the old "Teleport Circle in the middle of the Simbul's palace" care too much about themselves to try some half-cocked commando mission all the time. Especialy since, as the timeline shows, they've tried doing so just against the Simbul (never mind her whole kingdom), in the past, and failed. Will you see this sort of thing again? Sure. We saw examples of how massive magical effects play a role in both strategic and tactical aspects of warfare in "The Return of the Archwizards" trilogy and "The Forsaken House", and I wager we'll see their like again. A better topic to focus on, I think, would be the role of the average soldier/warrior in a magic heavy world like that of the Forgotten Realms. While Wizards and leaders of magocratic nations have learned to counter each others' effects, the need for armies to invade and take hold of places remains--and the soldiers themselves remain as vulnerable to magic as ever. Reading through "The Forsaken House", for example, I thought that Rich Baker did well to illustrate how horrific it must be for some 1st level Elf Fighter with a regular longsword having to stand his ground while a horde of Tanar'ri and Yugoloths marched on him. He knows, just like we do, that he can't do anything to harm it, but he's gotta stand there and take it.
SpeedyMunky 04-15-05, 06:15 PM	My two cents... (edit: bolding my main points for those who are tired of reading wordy posts) for every disintigrate spell, the home team has a wall of stone spell or scroll to patch the hole up with... NPCs don't have DMs... they have to use 'real world' experiance... and as a side note... you get XP for overcomming a challenge... fighting a monster is A challenge, but so is starting a buisness, buying a house, getting married, having children, playing chess, dealing with said wife and children, putting up with a boss, figuring out what to do when your roof starts leaking and you cant afford to fix it because of the wife and children... etc.. etc.. so on and so forth.... (not to rag on wives and children... but having to think for and support 4 or 5 people is much more of a challenge than for just 1) Adventurers go for the glory, they'd rather risk thier lives and get very rich and very experienced in as short a time as possible... whereas the 'average' person just wants to live. Yes they take longer to earn the experience, but they still do. The 'average' mage who lives in a city earns experience dealing with rivals, figuring out how to get people to come to his store instead of Joes down the street, so what if he can only cast 0 and 1st level spells, the average person can barely afford those. He makes little trinkets and minor potions to ease the lives of the people that support him. His interest isn't in casting meteor swarms and lighting bolts, its about getting enough money to buy his little tower and retire. When the towns and cities are broken down, and it says there are X number of high level classed people living there, most of those should be middle aged retired adventurers.... such as whats his name that runs the Yawning Portal in Waterdeep... or Mirt the Moneylender.... very few would be actual active adventurers, and that being said, most of them just want to run thier tavers, lend thier money, sit in thier towers and live the good life... they've had thier fill of rushing off to fight other peoples wars...
SpeedyMunky 04-15-05, 06:19 PM	Also, why have mundane defenses? A sense of security... (however false) Why put locks on your doors and windows? If someone really wanted in all they have to do is break a window... but it makes YOU feel safer, and it keeps out anyone who isn't really intent on getting in.
Weiser_Cain 04-16-05, 01:35 AM	My thoughts on this are that mundane defenses are for the mundane in low magic fantasy and reinforced by magic in mid to high magic fantasy while still serving it's mundane purpose to those without magic.
Songrimm 04-16-05, 10:17 PM	As to warding: somewhere in my book collection i have one that deals with herbs and ointments and some such. its not from the coastwizards and i dont remember the title right now. however, in this book are presented some potions and ointments to reinforce building materials, like making your wall more resistent to acid or increase the hardness. this all has its cost mind you. but this is just one solution. as to why nobody starts a real big war, i think czargarett is right with the domino effect. and as elminster pointed out in the frcb everyone good is watching everyone bad and vice versa. thats why the good guys dont go beating up bads or change the political arena. and the badies like to know their enemies. and stat-wise, even if you take a normal person (10 and 11 stats) by reaching 16 level this person could increase his stats four times. makes 14 or 15 int to me. but i would asume that every normal person tries to get a job where they can shine, do something they are good at. so i say the average wizard would start out with a 12 or 13 int min. that would become a 16 to 17 int at 16 lvl.
ClobberinTime 04-17-05, 12:46 PM	Two things- Hordes of Orcs have destroyed nations greater than Aglarond, with no special spell casters at all, because in the end, no group of 20th level characters can stop a horde of a 100,000 orcs, its like trying to fight the ocean. Second- No RW wants to be involved in invading aglarond, because likely they will return to their towers to find their spell books and magic pilfered and themselves replaced in the RW hierarchy with someone else..
Nyat 04-17-05, 01:03 PM	Two things- Hordes of Orcs have destroyed nations greater than Aglarond, with no special spell casters at all, because in the end, no group of 20th level characters can stop a horde of a 100,000 orcs, its like trying to fight the ocean. Orc aren't that hard to take out, just need some awesome area effect spells like Earth Reaver (7d6 damage with a radius of 20 ft +10 ft per caster level), or if you really want to get nasty use apocolypse from the sky. You could make some nice epic spells with the weather function of the energy seed as well. And as to fight the ocean, you just need to dump some Spheres of Annilihation and some portals in it and it'll eventually be gone (joking)
ClobberinTime 04-17-05, 07:03 PM	Now they won't kill you either, but they will overrun any city in faerun.