Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tempus665 12-19-05, 05:20 AM	I've run into a serious problem lately, and I was hoping to get some help in trying to solve it. I've been playing D&D for over 13 years now, and I've been through the hack & slash, no sense dungeon phase. Actually, I've left that kind of playing behind me for quite a few years now. The problem is that the group I've been playing with for most of my D&D career hasn't. I don't mind playing with them, they're a nice bunch of people, and if possible I'd love to be their DM for quite a bit longer. To give you some more insight in the nature of the problem, let me say this: I love writing big campaign stories wherein the heroes have a lot of freedom to chose where they're going and what they're going to do. Elaborate plotlines criss cross the campaign and even though most of the time there is a single background story which the PC's are working on, there's always a myriad of things for them to chose from. I think that's a lot more fun and realistic than railroading them from one adventure to the next. The players I'm talking about though, are still mainly interested in their personal gain, and personal advancement. This hampers the roleplaying somewhat. They're trying to roleplay, but they just don't quite grasp the concept yet. I feel I can't offer them what they want, and they can't offer me what I want, and I would really like to solve this 'problem' in-game. The reason I'm posting this in the FR forum (besides the fact that I don't visit the general boards) is that I want to use FR stuff to somehow find a way in between, something that makes both the players and me happy. I'm currently running a campaign in Waterdeep. I've asked the players beforehand what kind of campaign they wanted, and they agreed upon playing good characters doing good deeds, mostly. It's centered around signs and clues left behind by the Netherese, that, when read and acted upon in the correct manner, will enable their readers to do something big. I haven't quite figured out what that big thing is yet, and that really doesn't matter for what I'm asking here. The players will be busying themselves finding these signs and puzzling them together. This means that even though a lot of the campaign takes place inside the city walls, they will also be doing a lot of fieldwork (and that doesn't just mean plowing their way through dungeons). A perfect example of what I don't like them doing (especially in the light of their choice to play good characters that follow good deities) and they find perfectly normal is this: they witnessed an explosion while trudging down a street in Dock Ward. The explosion completely blew away one wall of a residence, killing a number of people in the streets. The first thing the rogue does, is loot these corpses before the guards arrive. I don't agree with that at all, especially not from a CG follower of Tymora. A while later that day (yes, it was a busy day, but I was creating the hooks necessary for the campaign to really start), the PC's witnessed a wild mage's spell go awry. Two things happened, even though the PC's haven't realized it yet: the resulting wild surge affected the wards that keep Waterdeep from plunging into Undermountain, and one of the houses near the wild mage sacked into the floor. The other thing that happened was that a Netherese executioner was dragged from the Sargauth Enclave (in the past) to Waterdeep (in the present day). This executioner crawled up from underneath the rubble created when the house went down, and he killed the wild mage with one stroke of his blade. At the same time an old sun elf comes walking down the street, obviously confused, and mumbling about how this can't be, the Mythal and having to go to the Pantheon immediately. He drops down and hits a cobblestone with his head (resulting in his death). The two things the PC's were most concerned about by now, were the beautiful staff carried by the elf and the pouch on the wild mage's belt. :confused: That's just to give you an idea. I hope someone has taken the trouble of reading my post and can offer me some tips or guidelines. Thanks!
burning666 12-19-05, 07:05 AM	I sympathise with you mate as i too had the same sort of thing happen in my FR campaign a few years back and it is very frustrating. Heres what i did but please bear in mind it might not work for you. If they insist on just looking for material power objects give them exactly what they want but give them strong cursed items. I did this a few times and the players soon got the message. Be more heavy handed with them , beef up npc`s and monsters and make them role play more. Remember it is your campaign that they are playing and no doubt you have taken a lot of time and effort to make it good , so don`t let anyone ruin it for you , after all DM`s have to have fun also. Hope i was a bit of help.
Another Gnome 12-19-05, 08:04 AM	No matter what you cater to the players, the more complicated it looks on the surface, the less interest there will be to it, especially if it appears to involve considerable risk to the characters' well-being or, heavens forbid, to the stuff they already have. Personally, I wouldn't expect much more than what you described happening. Being a hero is a fool's job, it's just something that happens as a natural side-effect of looting and pillaging mostly evil guys. The only reason anyone becomes an adventurer is personal gain; some people merely wrap themselves in self-delusion and think what they're doing somehow serves this or that noble goal or cosmic purpose. Do not mistake that for lack of roleplaying! Quite the contrary, that's the most realistic approach to a character's motives you could ever hope for.
Lord_Mordecai 12-19-05, 08:30 AM	If your players are primarily interested in material gain, use that to your advantage. Drop subtle hints of powerful weapons or large sums of money that could be gained by doing what a powerful NPC wants. It may seem a little cliche to make such an NPC the benefactor of the campaign, but if it will guide your players' actions in a useful direction, it's worthwhile. Also, it never hurts to interject a few greedy NPCs into your story. For example, your players went for the elf's staff. Well, a staff is, generally speaking, a difficult item to conceal without magical aid. If their greed is so blatant, perhaps an encounter with a high-level rogue or wizard bent on obtaining such items would help to point out that it isn't always a good idea to draw unnecessary attention to one's self. Lastly, keep in mind that your players are adventurers. Unless they are all Paladins or Lawful Good Clerics or Monks, they are going to do what they can to get ahead in life. Seizing opportunity when it presents itself is the hallmark of a long adventuring career. So, instead of introducing random items into the game, put some thought into it. Drop items that have a specific, if hidden, use for that campaign. For instance, a looted pouch of gold might be just enough to pay for information necessary to further the storyline. Or maybe a merchant is looking for a magical staff and is willing to trade a useful sword or magical trinket that one of your characters could benefit from.
Vaprak001 12-19-05, 12:31 PM	I know of this problem only too well, having a small playing group, sometimes only one, who like to 'try out' all types of characters but can only play in one dimension. Necessarily I play a number of npc's alongside the party, and many conflicts have arisen in playing these 'extras' according to their alignments. However, I tend to reward individuals for good play, more than the party as a whole. Using your examples: If your players are greedy nothing would rile them more than the uber powerful staff you mentioned 'choosing' to be used only by the player you deemed worthy. If all the players were deviating from alignment then the staff might not function at all until a players actions made atonement. A CG theif acting in such a callous and selfish manner, is asking for trouble if his luck starts to run out because his deity doesn't like what she sees. Try secretly starting to subtract 1 from every role the theif makes, and make it cumulative with further transgressions. He'll get the point soon enough, or at least have to start a new character. I think the key is to be harsh but fair, punish poor role playing and reward good. Even give good individual experience point awards for problem/plot solving not just defeating monsters. If however, the players find looting dead bodies the most fun, your hard campaign writing work is for the most part going to be wasted. In such a case I think you may just have to start a new party of Neutral characters!
Crust 12-19-05, 09:43 PM	The players and the DM have to be on the same wavelength. There needs to be an understanding about certain rules governing alignment and what a character would or wouldn't do based on deity, class, etc. It seems like your players have a very limited idea of how to play the characters they've chosen. Does that rogue know anything about Tymora, or is it just the name of his deity to him? Definitely remind the player that his character's good alignment makes it impossible for him to rob the recently killed, out in the open, in front of people, etc. Such a chance event might have caused him to count his blessings for not being in that building. Remind your players that your game isn't a session of Final Fantasy or Baldur's Gate where everything they kill gives them 29 XP and 15 GP. I've had to callously slay PCs to teach them that lesson. ;)
Krash 12-19-05, 11:50 PM	Until they get tired or mature beyond the "I kill it and take its stuff" mentality, put them in Undermountain. They'lll soon get tired of hack and slash and looting - if they survive. -- George Krashos
Lord Karsus 12-20-05, 12:53 AM	-I know your pain, friend. The small group I am involved with is so similar. In a campaign I once ran, the PC's recovered a legendary blade that would have eventually allowed the wielder to lay claim to an entire ancient kindgom. Although I tried to stop them, and hamper it, the characters eventually sold the weapon to an antiques dealer. Eventually, I just scrapped the campaign... -Unfortunatley, there is nothing you can really do about players like this. Perhaps before the game starts, and everyone is assembled, bring it up. Everyone knows that the point of D&D is to have fun. I am sure that the PCs will recognize that you might not be having the best of times, and try to fix the problem they've been causing you.
louhas 12-20-05, 04:03 AM	Yeah, I'm a hardcore roleplayer/storyteller who is surrounded by powergamers. They have tried to roleplay, I'll give them that, but they usually wind up slipping back into a phase where they just want to kill, level up their characters and accumulate wealth. It's no fun when you spend a ton of time working on an adventure, only to have the session basically wasted by people who don't appreciate the work. Basically, I feel your pain. I think I'd have to say that the most effective way to deal with it is to be very blunt. That works for me, when I really need to push things through. Usually just the threat of penalties can do it. If you need more, I've had some fun by putting some baddies who are totally different and don't offer a straight fight to have some fun with the players. My group is now deathly afraid of Tiefling Monks, as they were nearly taken out by a pair that were hired to keep the PCs busy as an assass tried to take out the merchant they were supposed to protect. They were quite focused on the game when their characters were in jeapordy. ;)
Sweethug 12-20-05, 05:04 AM	Here are a few things you can do. I am not telling those will work but your campaing is worth the effort. 1 - Talk to them about your vision of the game and how things could get done. 2 - For each of your characters, get a scale and downgrade or upgrade their alignement score (there are lots of house rules to manage this). Eventually they will switch alignement and this will match and reflects their behaviour leading to having troubles with legal authorities in many major cities. 3 - If your rogue loots warm dead bodies in front of a crowd in a good city, this should have some immediate and brutal repercussions. The angry mob should at least try to hang him right there. He will be chased down by the local police, eventually arrested and there should be a trial. 4 - If your rogues ever dies, in no way he can reach tymoras plane. He will be juged by kelemvor to an eternity of pain. This can make him think twice about his actions if his comrades manage to get a rez for him. 5 - Your PCs are hooked to their magical gear or wealth : rogues can strip them off, if they get captured or left for dead, strip them off all those.
aliira-sunstar 12-20-05, 07:10 PM	I let my PC know how much I appreciate RPing. They get XP for good ideas or attitudes (I think my 6th lvl players got 800 XP for RP in one session) and just 80 per cent for just killing a foe/monster. I also let them know IF they can find ways out of battle (not always possible but very interesting RP-like when they do find a way out) with RPing, they get RPing XP plus 50 per cent of the monster's/foe's CR as if they had killed it. They also get PENALTIES for real bad OOC behaviour or anti-RP crap, but after the first three times I did that they RP really improved and I rearely have to turn back to that. Make some of the encounters so tough the ONLY way they can get out of it is by RPing, and good RPing at that. I had a forest encounter chart which I would role and play out any of the creatures that came out. The players could try to avoid, battle or talk to the creatures. Once I rolled a 100, which was a green dragon- so they RPlayed their way out. Eventually RPing became a big issue for both me and all of my players, which really helped my DMing RP quite a bit too. About the items fetiche, I agree with an earlier post- curse 'em. Or, for example, when they went to retrieve the body loot, you coould have a loose piece of masonsry fall on them, smashing one of their legs or arms so bad that they became crippled, even with magic healing (Tymora got ****** at that rogue!)
Faraer 12-20-05, 07:42 PM	Talk with your players. Find out why they play as they do; why do they play amoral characters? Are they immature generally, or do they approach roleplaying games differently from other fictional media for some reason? See if they can get their power-fantasy fix elsewhere. See if they're amenable to trying a more cooperative and imaginative kind of campaign. Why do you want to deal with it in-game? I have never once heard of such an approach working, have you? If they're your friends you should be able to communicate with them rather than trying to manipulate them.
Lord Karsus 12-20-05, 10:56 PM	-Another way to encourage good RPing skills is to award "bonus points" and similar incentives. Yeah, your group might get the 1000 Experience Points for slaying that Orc hoarde, but give little EXP boosts to good Rping. Give the wizard a few points for using a ventrilocism spell to create some discord among their ranks. Give the rogue a few points for being roguish. And so on...Before you know it, PC's will be scouring their character sheets, looking for different skills, feats and abilities to help out in their non-combat situations.
Tempus665 12-21-05, 04:39 AM	I got a lot of good advice so far, thank you people! It's good to see I'm not the only one facing this problem. I have written a couple of your tips down which I think will improve our game the most. Why do you want to deal with it in-game? I have never once heard of such an approach working, have you? If they're your friends you should be able to communicate with them rather than trying to manipulate them. I can talk to my players, but with things like this, somehow things very quickly get a little tense. Not all of them are able to deal with criticism very well and some of them think I'm attacking their personal styles of playing when I say something about it. In-game I can make the characters see why what they're doing isn't what they're supposed to be doing (according to the choices they made during character creation), without things getting personal. Even though they are my friends, they tend to get a little edgy when I critique them. It sucks, I know, but that's how it is.
Faraer 12-21-05, 08:10 AM	Well, good luck, and let us know if you make any progress. You've chosen a tough route, but a doable one if (a) they are themselves (though they don't know it) prepared for your kind of play and (b) you can, through enthusiastic roleplaying of NPCs and staging of great roleplaying moments for them, give them experiences to inch them in that direction.
kmccoy 12-21-05, 12:00 PM	I think the general consenses is the same. Everyone's played with powergamers when what you want is good roleplaying. I know it can be frustrating but try not to be too hard on your pcs either. In one campaign I was playing a cleric who took lvls in Morning lord of Lathander because it worked into my DMs plotline. At one point I was given the choice of being killed or converting to the draco lich prestige class (not sure of the actual name now) with no penalty. I chose to die becasue my character was devout in worship of the morning lord. I chose right, I was subsequntly saved and awarded some nice armor and a mace that I'll admit was a little uber powerful (I think it was a +11) for my decision. Keep in mind I dint ask for anything thats what my DM gave me for good roleplay. As it turned out our DM wasnt able to continue so he gave the campaign over to his friend the next week. Within an hour of when we started Lanthanders Temple in Waterdeep was completly destroyed and right before I went into my temple it stared raining somekind of purple rain that completly blocked out all divine spellcasting abilities. I wasn't given a check to know what it did or where it came from so I went into the temple and was immediatly attacked my 30+ Greater shadows and Wraiths and pretty much instantly killed due to str drain. On top of that I lost all my posessions and was unable to retrieve them in any way. It seems our new DM had a chip on his shoulders for clerics and put me in a position where he knew I had no chance of surviving. So I guess my point through all this rambling is don't be a powergame DM because your PCs want to powergame. Thats an aspect you'll always have to deal with. You can make them rolepay for those powerful items they want, don't just give them to them, but just dont completely take them away either.
Vaprak001 12-21-05, 12:18 PM	Man, that must be the cr*ppiest DM i've ever heard of! Your original DM must have been fuming when he heard. I've never fired a DM before but that guy crosses the line! :eek: