Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Charles Phipps 01-20-08, 07:56 PM	* This thread is Dedicated to the poster Rinonalyrna Fathomlin. Basically, I'll be giving my reviews on the Fourth Edition Material as it comes out, rather than divide the two across two threads, I'll be reviewing both of them here and sharing my thoughts. Worlds and Monsters Review Okay, before we proceed any further. I'd like to state that I'm not a "Hater." I trust Richard Baker and his Adventuring Party of Game Designers to turn in an excellent product. On the other hand, I'm going to seriously discuss my opinions on some of his choices but they're not going to be dismissed out of hand like some people have done. To keep this thread relevant, it will also deal primarilly with those things that affect the Forgotten Realms. Overall, I'm impressed with the work on 4E. It's an evocative and fascinating work that is well detailed with a coherent and interesting mythology. The place has a large focus on the mystical and surreal in order to heighten the fantasy elements of the world while downplaying the mundane. So, I definitely recommend gamers to get it. However, I have quite a few reservations and things I would have done differently. Not enough for me to say that it wasn't a clear labor of love....but reservations. For example; Richard, do you play a lot of Exalted? Cause, either you do or you really should pick up that game since I think you'd enjoy it a great deal. You have the same "Primordial beings overthrown by the weaker and smaller gods who create their own static universe but aren't that nice" mixed with the heroes expected to be overthetop powerful figures while the environments aren't just weird and fantastical, they are WEIRD and FANTASTICAL. Plus, the Alien Fae and Lovecraftian horrors are both present with the big Sheol style Afterlife. I'm not saying these don't have a shared mythological basis but there's a pretty clear Exalted-style feel here. Richard Baker's Core Setting is what I like to term "Ultimate Greyhawk" in the Marvel sense. It's a place that has a clear similiarity to the D&D Core setting that has been left behind but it's also got striking differences that are even larger than the shift from 2E to 3E. Really, this is a totally different universe from anything that's come before in D&D's mythology. It'd be less problematic if this wasn't going into effect setting wide. But yes, there's no real way to reconcile 4E with the Old D&D world. I'm going to just say this is the Sarah Conner Chronicles while D&D 3.5 was to Terminator 3. D&D 1st Edition is still on-going thanks to Hackmaster, so we know things go on. Nevertheless, 4E might better be called Advanced Dungeons and Dragons 3E or something else to differentiate it from the D&D Core Setting we're leaving behind. Just accepting this is better than attempting to imagine the Crisis on Infinite Earths style things that would be necessary to reconcile the two. Just some basic notes of what I liked and didn't like. 1. The Dragons: It didn't really need to be said that there's no need to state that Dragons can be bad or good no matter what their color. However, it's an explicit part of the work. I think that very little is honestly changed here but Richard Baker highlights some facts that the typical Alignment Double-think is off. I did like the changes to Green Dragons, however. One questionable choice is Io is dead now and was split into Bahamut and Tiamat. 2. Giants: I appreciate Richard Baker correcting a long annoying flaw that I've had in that Giants were just too small for the kind of huge ass bad guys that I wanted. However, I'm not really sure about his solution that there's identical versions that are just shorter. In other words, there's HUGE ass Frost Giants and comparatively ting ones. It's like human and Dwarf Frost Giants. 3. Inhuman Civilizations: Ultimately, I have issues with Richard Baker's decisions that an Egyptian civilization ruled by mummies is something that's less interesting than an inhuman civilization of Salamanders. Honestly, not really. My players would have less reason to empathize with Salamanders and would be less likely to care if they were totally destroyed. Really, relatability is an important part of the gameworld. 4. The Undead: I'm not sure that I think the complication of whether undead have "souls" or not was really needed for the world to be honest and it seems like something that's just going to be needlessly confusing in the long run. Honestly, I also think he should have stuck with the idea that Negative Material Energy is evil rather than neutral but different strokes for different strokes. 5. The Shadowfel: I didn't appreciate the Eberronish combining the Negative Material Planes and Plane of Shadow to be honest. It comes off as a little too much like the Greek Underworld or the Jewish Sheoul to be honest. A bunch of ghosts wandering around in a lightless world may work for some mythologies but not all of them. I also dislike Wee Jas being renamed "The Raven Queen." 6. The Feywild: I have no problems with this depiction, even if I think that Richard is unfortunately making the Fey realms to be too "close" to humankind. I rather liked that they were powerful and mysterious where they are really very close in this setting. 7. The Afterlife: One major mistake that I think Richard Baker has made in that the gods don't know where souls go. While I always felt it was pretty dodgy that "souls melt into their deity" I'm not sure this is really better. For me, I think I'll stick with my "Fluffy Cloud Heaven." http://www.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FluffyCloudHeaven 8. The Gods and Primordials: I appreciate Richard Baker's take on the gods and this fits the Forgotten Realms very really. The gods in Richard Baker's view are not omnipotent, omniscient, or undefeatable by mortals. They're able to be tricked and often have glaring personality disorders. Honestly, I'm not sure about dividing the gods from the "Primordials" however. It's clear that Richard Baker is going for a 'Titans vs. Gods' and 'Giants vs. Gods' style battle between the Old Gods and the New Gods. However, I'm not sure if it's not another case of just making things more complex than they are. Also, I don't really think that the Origins of the Universe should be spelled out so clearly as in these books. I liked the mystery of previous editions. 9. The Combination of the Inner Planes and Abyss: Despite my hesitation, I'll agree with Richard that the Inner Planes really were pretty much damned impossible to use. I'm not sure that the Elemental Chaos is better, however since it seems like a bit of a random combination of the Abyss/Inner Planes/Pandemonium without fixing any of the flaws. Making it one plane doesn't make the unplayable regions any more playable. 10. No Blood War: I confess, I get Richard's reasoning. The Lawful Evil and Chaotic Evil fighting one another is probably something that everyone should be happy about. Nevertheless, I always felt that it provided a massive conflict that could be the source of many new adventures. It really seems to have just been replaced with the Primordial vs. God war. Also, it's one of the clearest signs this is "Ultimate D&D" rather than a continuition of the previous D&D universe. 11. Devils and Demons: I like Richard's desire to move the Devils more clearly from Demons. I don't mind the Succubi being Devils. What I am confused by is the fact that it seems to be undercut by its own text. Devils are all thinkers and corrupters now, yet they have massive armies? Without Pit Fiends, who exactly is supposed to be leading them? Likewise, if the Yugoloths are now Demons then what have the Demons really lost since the Loths are still all corruptors? I don't mind the transformation of Asmodeus and his company into Fallen Angels, though. It's almost identical to at least some of his origins anyway. What I don't get is why Richard insists that Devils make soul bargains. With Asmodeus as a god, why doesn't he just have his own religion? A bit disappointed that all the Demon Lords are not gods, though. Orcus should be, at least. The Elemental Evil also seems to be a bit weak for the Ultimate EvilTM. Overall, I'm rather pleased with this book and despite my belief it's pretty close to Exalted D20, it's not really a bad sign of things to come. I'll definitely be picking up 4E even if I ignore a great deal of the Planar Material for my old Planescape works. 12. The Far Realm: Richard blatantly says that he increased the Far Realm's importance because he created it. Frankly, I'm not sure that Illithids and Beholders should all hail from the same world of sanity-blasting madness but he seems to think it works. I'll just call it "Xoriat" however. 7/10
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-20-08, 07:59 PM	* This thread is Dedicated to the poster Rinonalyrna Fathomlin. Why? Just curious. And now, I'll read (and perhaps respond to) your post.
GreenKnight 01-20-08, 08:06 PM	5. The Shadowfel: I didn't appreciate the Eberronish combining the Negative Material Planes and Plane of Shadow to be honest. It comes off as a little too much like the Greek Underworld or the Jewish Sheoul to be honest. A bunch of ghosts wandering around in a lightless world may work for some mythologies but not all of them. Isn't it spelled Shadowfell? Anyway, this isn't a new idea. Just check out Rich Baker's OTHER campaign setting, Birthright. From everything I've read about the Shadowfell, it sounds exactly like the Shadow World from Birthright. The only thing that's missing is Halflings having originated there and possessing the ability to cross over from the world to the Shadowfell and back. With Asmodeus as a god, why doesn't he just have his own religion? I'm guessing he does. But why limit themselves, when they can get souls in other ways?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-20-08, 08:09 PM	Thanks for sharing your thoughts. A few comments, with the caveat that there is a lot in W&M that I haven't read yet. 7. The Afterlife: One major mistake that I think Richard Baker has made in that the gods don't know where souls go. While I always felt it was pretty dodgy that "souls melt into their deity" I'm not sure this is really better. For me, I think I'll stick with my "Fluffy Cloud Heaven." Yeah, I kind of agree here. I like some mystery regarding the afterlife, but shouldn't gods know about it? 10. No Blood War: I confess, I get Richard's reasoning. The Lawful Evil and Chaotic Evil fighting one another is probably something that everyone should be happy about. Nevertheless, I always felt that it provided a massive conflict that could be the source of many new adventures. I agree with that...and I also think that whether or not there's a Blood War, it's not always silly for evil forces to fight each other, because evil shouldn't become too monolithic (IMO).
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-20-08, 08:11 PM	I'm guessing he does. I thought the same thing. By the way, the Asmodeus picture is pretty neat!
GreenKnight 01-20-08, 08:14 PM	Yeah, I kind of agree here. I like some mystery regarding the afterlife, but shouldn't gods know about it? What I don't like is that the gods apparently don't provide homes for their worshippers. So what's the point, then, if you're not actually ensuring that your immortal soul is taken care of? That's not just a D&Dism, but a real worldism. If you died according to your gods precepts, then you ended up in Dweomerheart, Valhalla, or whatever. Now that's not the case? I agree with that...and I also think that whether or not there's a Blood War, it's not always silly for evil forces to fight each other, because evil shouldn't become too monolithic (IMO). True, but the lack of the Blood War doesn't mean that evil's becoming monolithic. After all, I doubt that the Demons and Devils are gonna get all huggy and kissy with each other. They're just not at each others throats as often.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-20-08, 08:17 PM	What I don't like is that the gods apparently don't provide homes for their worshippers. So what's the point, then, if you're not actually ensuring that your immortal soul is taken care of? That's not just a D&Dism, but a real worldism. If you died according to your gods precepts, then you ended up in Dweomerheart, Valhalla, or whatever. Now that's not the case? Good points. True, but the lack of the Blood War doesn't mean that evil's becoming monolithic. After all, I doubt that the Demons and Devils are gonna get all huggy and kissy with each other. They're just not at each others throats as often. Right, but I'm rather wary of the mentioned design principle that 4E will have "less evil fighting evil, because when evil is fighting itself, that means it isn't focused on the PCs". That idea has merit, but I'm worried it could lead to "monolithic evil" situations.
GreenKnight 01-20-08, 08:19 PM	Right, but I'm rather wary of the mentioned design principle that 4E will have "less evil fighting evil, because when evil is fighting itself, that means it isn't focused on the PCs". That idea has merit, but I'm worried it could lead to "monolithic evil" situations. Well, as long as we don't have Balors and Pit Fiends sitting around a campfire holding hands and singing "Kumbaya", I think it'll be alright. :D
Charles Phipps 01-20-08, 08:25 PM	Why? Just curious. And now, I'll read (and perhaps respond to) your post. I always find your comments entertaining and thought provoking to be honest, nothing more than that. Recent arguments inspired me to write this post to explain my opinions better, so I thought I'd actually mention that you were the driving force behind it (which may confuse you). Isn't it spelled Shadowfell? Anyway, this isn't a new idea. Just check out Rich Baker's OTHER campaign setting, Birthright. From everything I've read about the Shadowfell, it sounds exactly like the Shadow World from Birthright. The only thing that's missing is Halflings having originated there and possessing the ability to cross over from the world to the Shadowfell and back. I stand corrected on the spelling and noted. Nevertheless, it's really something that felt like me to be very similiar to the Underworld from "Wraith the Oblivion" and thus only adds to the Exalted-style feel I mentioned. I'm guessing he does. But why limit themselves, when they can get souls in other ways? Oh, I don't mind that, I just felt it was a curious omission and wondered whether it meant something. Yeah, I kind of agree here. I like some mystery regarding the afterlife, but shouldn't gods know about it? If Richard is going to pick and choose from Mythology, it would be rather nice if he left room for those who preferred other traditions than "Gloom" and "Doom." Though he stated that some souls stay behind to serve their deities, that's really rather different from a genuine Heaven. I agree with that...and I also think that whether or not there's a Blood War, it's not always silly for evil forces to fight each other, because evil shouldn't become too monolithic (IMO). I wouldn't have minded a "resolved" Blood War or one that was more limited in scope but his dismissal of the issue is something that really transforms this from D&D 4E to Ultimate D&D as I called it. What I don't like is that the gods apparently don't provide homes for their worshippers. So what's the point, then, if you're not actually ensuring that your immortal soul is taken care of? That's not just a D&Dism, but a real worldism. If you died according to your gods precepts, then you ended up in Dweomerheart, Valhalla, or whatever. Now that's not the case? In Races and Classes, I'll comment that Richard's "Old School" nature on D&D rather causes me some annoyance thanks to his dismissal of non-traditional gods for adventurers. He dismisses Chauntaea and other goddesses far too much. Well, as long as we don't have Balors and Pit Fiends sitting around a campfire holding hands and singing "Kumbaya", I think it'll be alright. Actually, the implications are they're probably both Demons at this point, which must be confusing as Hell for poor Bel and the Dark Eight. :-) It's like they were Baseball teams that traded! But yes, really, I always liked the idea that Devils and Demons fought each other most because they thought the other was the only REAL threat to them.
GreenKnight 01-20-08, 08:31 PM	Just so we're clear, Pit Fiends are demons, now? And all they got in return was the friggin' Succubus? What a gip! :mad:
Charles Phipps 01-20-08, 08:39 PM	Just so we're clear, Pit Fiends are demons, now? And all they got in return was the friggin' Succubus? What a gip! :mad: That was what I seemed to get from it.
GreenKnight 01-20-08, 08:44 PM	Well, here's hoping your impression was wrong, cause I prefer Pit Fiends as Devils. I can live with their appearance being changed (Especially if it's changed to something like THIS (http://www.hollywoodheroes.com/images/darknesspremium.jpg) or THIS (http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Sbk/60/60339_1_3.JPG)). But to make them Demons? For one, Demons don't need them. They already got Balors. Second, Devils pretty much need Pit Fiends. Oh well, we'll see how it all pans out.
Gunnersmate 01-20-08, 09:26 PM	I was under the impression that the blood war was what stopped them from taking over the prime. That the considerable losses on both sides mixed with the resources consumed were what kept the demons and devils weakened. If not a war with eachother than what keeps them from taking everything? I have been on a two year hiatus do to my job but will be rejoining things in a few months. Appareantly, to a very different D&D and FR
Charles Phipps 01-20-08, 09:32 PM	I was under the impression that the blood war was what stopped them from taking over the prime. That the considerable losses on both sides mixed with the resources consumed were what kept the demons and devils weakened. If not a war with eachother than what keeps them from taking everything? I have been on a two year hiatus do to my job but will be rejoining things in a few months. Appareantly, to a very different D&D and FR The Abyss is no longer Infinite and apparently, everyone amongst the gods hates Asmodeus. All the Primordials who live in the Elemental Chaos, including the Elemental Evil are also bound so they're kinda :censored: there. Really, I assume that the masses of the Gods and their Angelic Servants prevent them from taking over. It may be a bit more realistic, but I'm not too enthused about the prospect. Oddly, it restores some of the Law vs. Chaos feel of the Old Games but it removes all MENTION of Law vs. Chaos. :rolleyes:
Gunnersmate 01-20-08, 09:49 PM	Really, I assume that the masses of the Gods and their Angelic Servants prevent them from taking over. It may be a bit more realistic, but I'm not too enthused about the prospect. Oddly, it restores some of the Law vs. Chaos feel of the Old Games but it removes all MENTION of Law vs. Chaos. :rolleyes: Not sure i understand. Have the Angelics been beefed up. I am going off the Planescape boxed set Hellbound. It seemed pretty specific that the blood war needed to exist almost had to exist to ensure balance in the planes.
Gunnersmate 01-20-08, 09:50 PM	Really, I assume that the masses of the Gods and their Angelic Servants prevent them from taking over. It may be a bit more realistic, but I'm not too enthused about the prospect. Oddly, it restores some of the Law vs. Chaos feel of the Old Games but it removes all MENTION of Law vs. Chaos. :rolleyes: Not sure i understand. Have the Angelics been beefed up. I am going off the Planescape boxed set Hellbound. It seemed pretty specific that the blood war needed to exist almost had to exist to ensure balance in the planes.
Charles Phipps 01-20-08, 09:50 PM	Races and Classes My opening comment shall summarize this book very clearly for me. 4E artists really like bare midriff. Apparently, full shirts and dresses are impossible for women in 4E and this includes Dwarf Lasses. Which is strange since a lot of the Artistic forces here seem to be women. But yes, once more, we shall not be seeing "realistic armor" anywhere on the women of D&D. However, all of the guys looked like they escaped Gwar anyway so maybe it's for the best. My overall impressions of Races and Classes is fundamentally that they're trying to recapture a lot of the feel of D&D 1E and AD&D that was lost in the transition to 3rd Edition. It's a rather curious charge but it's one that impresses itself upon me. A lot of the "signatures" of 3rd Edition are eliminated. 1. No Prestige Classes: I was surprised by this move since The Prestige Class was a major cash cow for WOTC. Of course, I always recognized that Prestige Classes were nothing more than "Kits" from 2nd Edition warmed over. Frankly, I won't be surprised if there's something similiar that pops up soon. 2. 0-level Characters: The creation of "classless" characters that was foreshadowed by the SAGA edition of Star Wars was something that I personally disagreed with. While there's no need for the 20th level Commoner, it was understandable why it existed. 3. The Elimination of "Epic Levels": I was surprised by the decision but it seems like an attempt to simplify the rules while simultaneously bringing down the bar. Mordekain and Elminster are all within the 30th level limit, so they're no longer "beyond" player character aspirations. The choices that are also made regarding the actual races have been discussed to death but there's some definite choices that reflect a Post-3rd Edition and Post-Eberron mentality that I don't necessarilly agree with. Honestly, I think it's more focused on continuing the "Dungeon-Punk" theme that's meant to differentiate D&D fantasy from Tolkien (oddly, it's MORE similiar in some respects). 1. Goodbye Tanis Half-Elven: Half-breeds were the first to get the chopping block in this work and its rather easy to see why. They've been sacrificed to allow for Tieflings to fill in their role as the "romantic outsiders." There's not much point in playing a Half-Orc if you have a genuine Demonspawn to replace your 'child of evil' origins. 2. Saiyanorah Gnomes: Richard talks about what's always been a problem in D&D that no one knows what to do with gnomes. Honestly, when I told Chris at my table, you'd think Richard killed Christ. The irony is, our entire games are BUILT on Gnomes sucking and no one liking them. We just played it for laughs that they weren't aware of it. But in case you missed it, they just aren't including them in the main book, not eradicating them. 3. Tieflings and Celestials: I like the replacing of the name of the Aasimarr with Celestials for the same reason that Richard gives (it sounds like :censored:). Nevertheless, Demonspawn having their roles so dramatically increased doesn't necessarilly fill me with a lot of joy. It feels like base D&D becoming more like WOW. There was a time in D&D when Demons were rather rare. Nevertheless, it opens the door for the Fey'ri to be reclassified and made to continue in FR (even though they've been wiped out in canon) since the origin story is so similiar. 4. The Rise of the Sexy Dwarf: I don't think anyone under the age of 35 remembers the "Do Dwarf women have beards" debates unless they heard about them in KODT but clearly Richard thinks the issue needs to be settled. It was a bit of a joke at our table because Philip (our resident Dwarfphile) printed up the pictures. It's kinda weird to be honest. We :censored: him off by suggesting they were just bulky halflings since "Dwarf women don't exist." Nevertheless, the biggest change is the return of Race Hate. Dwarves HATE Giants and loathe Orcs. Frankly, the origins of the Giant Hate makes Moradin one of the dumbest looking of the gods. 5. The Eldarin Controversy that's not really so controversial: Elves are divided into two particular castes. Their's the hoitey-toity conservative and godlike Eldarin and the "live in forests and party all night long" Elves. If you take a step back, the sudden division between the two types of elves isn't that big of a change at all. I assume that the only difference in FR will be Moon Elves/Gold Elves are Eldarin while Wild Elves are not. 6. Drow are unchanged: I'm surprised that Richard more or less stated this. I thought we'd be seeing surface Drow kingdoms and the like. Instead, they're still Dark Skinned people who are evil and worship Lolth with a matriarchy underground. 7. Halflings are all Brandybucks: Halflings used to be Hobbits in the Shire then they were Kender and now they're Brandybucks. I.e. they're River Hobbits that live in Swampy terrain and probably now all speak with a Cajun accent while eating gumbo. I'm not really sure how Richard thinks this will encourage people to play them. But I am pleased to know Richard made them as tall as Dwarves. One MAJOR change, of course, is that Yondalla doesn't exist. They're children of Obad Hai and Sehaine Moonbow. 8. Humans are....well....Humans: I do like Richard explicitly saying that its a Human Racial Trait that we're drawn to Evil. Apparently, Humans are naturally cursed to give into temptation. So there's some controversial and not so controversial choices to be made there. 9. Dragonborn: To be honest, they worked in Dragonlance but arguably only in the War of the Lance. I've never really been able to get much out of Dragonborn despite my best efforts. They just don't seem that interesting and their role as the "Children of the Dragons" doesn't really grab me. They're not even Half-Dragons with all the ick that it implies. It's really like making Lizardmen a PC race. However, if this will end the attempt to make Kobolds into Dragonkin, GOD BLESS HIM. They're DOGS, *MAN*, get over it! Now onto the class changes. 1. Every Fighter is a Warblade: The Book of Nine Swords is apparently something that's going to be with every fighter. They'll be lots of manuevers and special moves. I think that they'll probably be toning down the supernatural aspects of move them to "Mageblades" (whom I assume will be the more anime style swordsmen). Frankly, I approve but it adds a lot of AD&D style complexity to combat. 2. Monks still suck: There's no sign they can use weapons from what I can tell and no real changes. 3. Paladins are going to be all Alignments: It was practically hand-stamped in D&D anyway, it'll now just be official. This makes sense in a world where Angels are Evil as well as good. Worryingly, Richard seems to indicate Paladins will have varities of Smite. I keep imagining "Limit Breaks" 4. Every Mage is an Island: No more Vancian spell-system, well there's a toast to you but I can't say I'll miss you. Unfortunately, details are very vague on what's replacing it and I have to confess that I'm worried. As Final Fantasy and other RPG games attest, the Vancian system works even if there's no damn good storytelling reason for it. Sorcerers will also be making an appearance and Warlocks. Frankly, I don't think that either are necessary if they REALLY overhaul the system. 5. Barbarians are missing: At least as far as I can tell. 6. Clerics are Nerfed: Richard spends pages extolling his Cleris but since Alignment is going to be mostly non-existent (or more precisely "Neutral" as "Unaligned" will be replacing most alignment) and there won't be any spells against Evil subtypes.....basically, most of their spell list is gone. Frankly, I don't think whatever he creates as a substitute will be the same. 7. Rogues seem about the same: Except, a lot of the skills will be combined and Backstab will be more useful. I'm pretty sure that most of the changes will be non-controversial. However, Richard's statement that everyone will be able to deal with trap is troubling since it removes one of the Core things that a Rogue does. Might as well give Swords to Wizards. 8. Druids are going to be Shapechanging more: Whoop de do. Sorry, Richard, I don't think that really invokes much. I suppose I should be grateful you're not dumping the class into the Cleric (though that's always been a valid choice in my opinion since they're really just a variant class of them----arguably so is Paladin). But overall, I'm very impressed with this work and it seems the Core Rules will not be that problematic. Still, I think 3rd Edition will be hard to top as this is much more complex whereas simplicity was the name of the game in 3rd. 7/10
Charles Phipps 01-20-08, 09:56 PM	Not sure i understand. Have the Angelics been beefed up. I am going off the Planescape boxed set Hellbound. It seemed pretty specific that the blood war needed to exist almost had to exist to ensure balance in the planes. Not sure i understand. Have the Angelics been beefed up. I am going off the Planescape boxed set Hellbound. It seemed pretty specific that the blood war needed to exist almost had to exist to ensure balance in the planes. Again, this is Richard Baker's Ultimate D&D, not a new edition of the Great Wheel. All the old material doesn't really apply here. 1. The Planes are just very large, but they're not infinite. In other words, no limitless supplies of fiends. 2. The Demons are as divided as ever with all of the Demon Lords up to their old tricks. 3. The Gods are much more interventionalist. 4. Angels are much more interventionalist and as powerful as their Demonic Counterparts, just not as good. 5. Asmodeus is "just" a greater god and no longer an Elder Power about to overwhelm the universe.
Dark Wizard 01-20-08, 10:34 PM	Again, this is Richard Baker's Ultimate D&D, not a new edition of the Great Wheel. All the old material doesn't really apply here. I like the balanced view of these commentaries, Charles. I think WotC should have applied the Ultimate concept to FR as well rather than go with the century time jump. I'm of the opinion it would be a clearer move and we would get a cleaner setting for it. I'm guessing the novels are the main reason for not starting over on the setting itself.
Ryltar Swordsong 01-20-08, 10:52 PM	I don't like a single change I've seen. I might-might- look over the core books in the bookstore, but I can honestly say I won't buy.
Charles Phipps 01-20-08, 10:59 PM	I don't like a single change I've seen. I might-might- look over the core books in the bookstore, but I can honestly say I won't buy. Eh, Most of the changes were already made towards 3.5's end. So I'm just surprised people are complaining now.
18DELTA 01-21-08, 12:06 AM	-:clap: Exellent thread! I also like how evey God will have an Angel of Death.:D But in the Devil section didn't it mention Pit Fiends a couple of times? LORD DELTA:clap:
Charles Phipps 01-21-08, 12:15 AM	All I recall was the statement that they said that Balor and Pit Fiends were fundamentally identical. It seemed clear they were changing the Demons to the "crush, kill, destroy" types. But I hope I'm wrong.
18DELTA 01-21-08, 12:23 AM	All I recall was the statement that they said that Balor and Pit Fiends were fundamentally identical. It seemed clear they were changing the Demons to the "crush, kill, destroy" types. But I hope I'm wrong. -Pg. 73 W/M says that Pit Fiends are truly the Generals of Hell, and they are never encountered alone.:eek: :D LORD DELTA:devil:
Fingoldfin 01-21-08, 12:30 AM	Eh, Most of the changes were already made towards 3.5's end. So I'm just surprised people are complaining now. Most of the changes that I like are in 3.5e so why should I buy a bunch of books filled with stuff I don't like? What bothers me most is that the designers seem to think a realist society doesn't need to exist. Gods that adventures don't worship don't need to exist. It is all geared toward hack-n-slash play not role-playing. The idea that adventures are normal people in a real world is gone. Now at level one your PC is a superhero. The MM is just a list of stuff to kill. No need to think about their society or ecology in 4e. D&D is being turned into a pen and paper version of WoW. I don't like it at all.
Charles Phipps 01-21-08, 12:46 AM	Most of the changes that I like are in 3.5e so why should I buy a bunch of books filled with stuff I don't like? What bothers me most is that the designers seem to think a realist society doesn't need to exist. Gods that adventures don't worship don't need to exist. It is all geared toward hack-n-slash play not role-playing. The idea that adventures are normal people in a real world is gone. Now at level one your PC is a superhero. The MM is just a list of stuff to kill. No need to think about their society or ecology in 4e. D&D is being turned into a pen and paper version of WoW. I don't like it at all. Counterpoint, 1. I don't think those gods don't exist. They're just not detailed. But yes, I object to the idea that we shouldn't have goddesses like Chauntaea detailed. 2. I think that's always been the case that the PCs are exceptional. This is not a new idea. Even if I don't like it. 3. I don't think that's the case.
WotC_RichBaker 01-21-08, 12:58 AM	You're giving me too much credit, Charles. I had a hand in creating some of those story elements, but very little to do with most of the others. For example, I don't think I've said a word about the Far Realm, and I've never claimed credit for creating it in the first place; I think Bruce Cordell gets credit for that. It sort of looks to me like you're using "Richard Baker" as shorthand for "all of WotC's in-house designers." I'm just one guy in the lineup card!
Charles Phipps 01-21-08, 01:00 AM	My apologies, I made a mistake there and I give full credit for Bruce Cordell and his creations. Overall, I want to say thank you for doing the entirety of the work by yourself! (Just kidding) No seriously, I want to say that your design team did an excellent job and everyone's contributions were tremendous. I stand by my objections and questions but I was overall very impressed.
Fingoldfin 01-21-08, 01:06 AM	Charles Phipps;14879059]Counterpoint, 1. I don't think those gods don't exist. They're just not detailed. But yes, I object to the idea that we shouldn't have goddesses like Chauntaea detailed. Not being detailed and not existing in D&D are the same thing. 2. I think that's always been the case that the PCs are exceptional. This is not a new idea. Even if I don't like it. I don't mind exceptional, but it feels more like they're trying to make all PCs super-human. 3. I don't think that's the case. I don't remember the exact quote about the MM in 4e, but it said that the monsters don't need many of the powers they had in 3e because they just get used in one session anyway. That's why the 4e MM will only cover the basics. I wish I could remember where I read the quote, but the clear implication was non-PCs in 4e exist only as fodder.
Charles Phipps 01-21-08, 01:15 AM	Not being detailed and not existing in D&D are the same thing. How do you figure that? While they're not "Core" deities, the fact remains that there's no "Core Setting" except in the vaguest sense. Furthermore, Chauntea isn't going anywhere in Forgotten Realms. I don't mind exceptional, but it feels more like they're trying to make all PCs super-human. Well they've still established that 1st levels aren't meant to do anything but fight Kobolds. Frankly, the moving of the level cap to 30th also means that the larger encounters are going to appropriately scaled. I don't remember the exact quote about the MM in 4e, but it said that the monsters don't need many of the powers they had in 3e because they just get used in one session anyway. That's why the 4e MM will only cover the basics. I wish I could remember where I read the quote, but the clear implication was non-PCs in 4e exist only as fodder. Well there's clearly an iteration that monsters, even Dragons, can be Good as well as evil. There's also a major focus on the Unaligned, so I don't think thats the case. I will regret if they remove large amounts of social flavor though.
Reneshat 01-21-08, 01:19 AM	There are a couple of things I need to set straight. Pit Fiends are still Devils, it was barely mentioned in passing at one point (this was mentioned between me opening the page, and replying). Barbarians are around, they will just have a variety of rages like paladins now have a variety of smites. Overall though, good commentary. I personally really liked the move to Sheol. As far as the Raven Queen is concerned, it's not exactly like Wee Jas, she doesn't seem to have any magic in her portfolio, but is picking up fate. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm getting a different feeling from her, and honestly she is one of the things that I'm looking forward to.
Fingoldfin 01-21-08, 02:00 AM	Charles Phipps;14879263]How do you figure that? While they're not "Core" deities, the fact remains that there's no "Core Setting" except in the vaguest sense. Furthermore, Chauntea isn't going anywhere in Forgotten Realms. Not being detailed and not existing are the same thing for new players who will only own 4e. Well they've still established that 1st levels aren't meant to do anything but fight Kobolds. Frankly, the moving of the level cap to 30th also means that the larger encounters are going to appropriately scaled. Ok, fair point. It's more of a gut feeling to me not a rational thought. Well there's clearly an iteration that monsters, even Dragons, can be Good as well as evil. There's also a major focus on the Unaligned, so I don't think thats the case. I will regret if they remove large amounts of social flavor though. Large amounts of social flavor were removed already. Just compare the 2e MM to the 3e or 3.5e MM. The 3e MM is just stat blocks with combat info. There is very little flavor text and no ecology or society sections. It's one of the few changes from 2e to 3e that I didn't like and the designers are already signaling that they want less flavor info in the MM. Do you get what I'm saying?
Gray Richardson 01-21-08, 03:15 AM	I have to agree that I am very impressed with the glimpse that we have been given of the multiverse in Worlds & Monsters. A lot of beautiful art, and some very good writing. I like the story elements introduced so far. I do agree with Charles, that the new multiverse, while rooted greatly in the lore of D&D, is different enough that it will be hard to jive with previous FR lore. The comparison to the "Marvel Ultimates" line is very apt. It has a feel that is oddly similar yet very different in fundamental ways from the original multiverse. But still, I think it will be fun to attempt to reconcile the old with the new and will doubtless leave me with a lot to think on and speculate about for the next few years. Will have to come up with a lot of creative explanations to try to harmonize the new lore with the old. But personally, trying to find explanations is a lot of fun for me. All this new material will provide ample seed for many interesting discussions on the forums. :)
Lord Karsus 01-21-08, 03:41 AM	-One wonders how much of this, and literally, how what is chosen will be implemented in the Realms.
GreenKnight 01-21-08, 09:35 AM	Just thought I'd make some comments and corrections, here. My opening comment shall summarize this book very clearly for me. 4E artists really like bare midriff. Apparently, full shirts and dresses are impossible for women in 4E and this includes Dwarf Lasses. Apparently bare midriffs aren't restricted to the women. Just check out the Male Human Fighter on page 88. I see belly button! And... it... irritates... me! 1. No Prestige Classes: I was surprised by this move since The Prestige Class was a major cash cow for WOTC. Of course, I always recognized that Prestige Classes were nothing more than "Kits" from 2nd Edition warmed over. Frankly, I won't be surprised if there's something similiar that pops up soon. Pg. 91 talks about Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies, the replacements for Prestige Classes. 3. The Elimination of "Epic Levels": I was surprised by the decision but it seems like an attempt to simplify the rules while simultaneously bringing down the bar. Mordekain and Elminster are all within the 30th level limit, so they're no longer "beyond" player character aspirations. Levels 21-30 are all Epic, so they haven't eliminated Epic. They've just put a cap on it. 1. Goodbye Tanis Half-Elven: Half-breeds were the first to get the chopping block in this work and its rather easy to see why. They've been sacrificed to allow for Tieflings to fill in their role as the "romantic outsiders." There's not much point in playing a Half-Orc if you have a genuine Demonspawn to replace your 'child of evil' origins. Half-Elves and Half-Orcs aren't gone. There was a section that was supposed to talk about Half-Elves, but it was cut due to space. Half-Elves have been talked about since the earliest playtest reports and will likely appear in the first PHB. They've also said that Half-Orcs will appear on DDI soon after the release of 4E. We just played it for laughs that they weren't aware of it. But in case you missed it, they just aren't including them in the main book, not eradicating them. Yep. In addition, Gnomes will likely have a write-up in the Monster Manual allowing them to be played as a PC race, with a full write-up debuting in the PHBII in 2009. 5. The Eldarin Controversy that's not really so controversial: Elves are divided into two particular castes. Their's the hoitey-toity conservative and godlike Eldarin and the "live in forests and party all night long" Elves. If you take a step back, the sudden division between the two types of elves isn't that big of a change at all. I assume that the only difference in FR will be Moon Elves/Gold Elves are Eldarin while Wild Elves are not. Yeah, Rich has pretty much said that Eladrin in the Realms will be called Moon Elves/Sun Elves, while Elves will be called Wood Elves/Wild Elves. 3. Paladins are going to be all Alignments: It was practically hand-stamped in D&D anyway, it'll now just be official. This makes sense in a world where Angels are Evil as well as good. Worryingly, Richard seems to indicate Paladins will have varities of Smite. I keep imagining "Limit Breaks" Go HERE (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20071128) for an article on Paladin Smites. 4. Every Mage is an Island: No more Vancian spell-system, well there's a toast to you but I can't say I'll miss you. Unfortunately, details are very vague on what's replacing it and I have to confess that I'm worried. As Final Fantasy and other RPG games attest, the Vancian system works even if there's no damn good storytelling reason for it. Wizards, like every other class, will be getting At Will, Per Encounter, and Per Day abilities. So they'll have spells they can cast anytime they want to cast them, spells which they can cast just once per encounter, and spells which they can cast just once per day (The once per day ones sound like they'll work like Vancian magic, so it's not entirely gone). For example, from THIS (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drcw/20071214) article, we have a Wizard who chose the spells Magic Missile and Fireblast for her At Will spells, Burning Hands for a Per Encounter power, and Sleep for a Per Day spell. Sorcerers will also be making an appearance and Warlocks. Frankly, I don't think that either are necessary if they REALLY overhaul the system. They're overhauling both, so I don't mind. The Sorcerer especially sounds like it's gonna be awesome. 5. Barbarians are missing: At least as far as I can tell. They talk about the Barbarian on pg. 82.
Flicker 01-21-08, 10:03 AM	So am i wrong in saying that 4e isn't D&D at all then? Not even a bastard child? Dragons of differing alignment types and colours (Tolkien anyone)? Asmodeus as the greatest evil? Infinite planes of evil? The blood war? Vandrian spell system? Wan't this one of the staples of D&D? Wasn't it the stand out? other systems has spell points or abilities etc but only D&D had this unique concept. It used to be the first system that everybody tried before moving on to other concepts, now I think its an also ran. I'll look at it, but i don't think D&D is unique anymore!!!!!
Gray Richardson 01-21-08, 10:41 AM	Yes, I think you are wrong in saying that. 4e is D&D. Although it is a new iteration of D&D, it will retain many of the features of the old D&D we have come to love. However, certain legacy aspects of D&D (such as the Vancian spell system and the alignment system) that have been carried down from the very beginning through all editions so far have been reexamined and if they hindered rather than helped game play, have been jettisoned or retooled in favor of streamlined mechanics that are more easily playable and fun. While they have indeed sacrificed many of the old sacred cows, the herd will be healthier, more robust, and stronger for it. ;)
GreenKnight 01-21-08, 10:47 AM	Damn shame the Sacred Cow named 'Hit Points' didn't get slaughtered, too. That's one I've been salivating over for a while, hoping it'll be made into hamburger.
Lord Karsus 01-21-08, 10:59 AM	Damn shame the Sacred Cow named 'Hit Points' didn't get slaughtered, too. That's one I've been salivating over for a while, hoping it'll be made into hamburger. -You have Unearthed Arcana? Because, I believe it has all kinds of variant rules, including Hit Points.
Ryltar Swordsong 01-21-08, 11:11 AM	Yes, I think you are wrong in saying that. 4e is D&D. Although it is a new iteration of D&D, it will retain many of the features of the old D&D we have come to love. However, certain legacy aspects of D&D (such as the Vancian spell system and the alignment system) that have been carried down from the very beginning through all editions so far have been reexamined and if they hindered rather than helped game play, have been jettisoned or retooled in favor of streamlined mechanics that are more easily playable and fun. While they have indeed sacrificed many of the old sacred cows, the herd will be healthier, more robust, and stronger for it. ;) I disagree. In my 20+ years of gaming, alignment, vancian magic and other "sacred cows" have not been a hindrance to me and those I game with. But then "different strokes for different folks".
Bluenose 01-21-08, 11:12 AM	So am i wrong in saying that 4e isn't D&D at all then? Not even a bastard child? Dragons of differing alignment types and colours (Tolkien anyone)? Asmodeus as the greatest evil? Infinite planes of evil? The blood war? Vandrian spell system? Wan't this one of the staples of D&D? Wasn't it the stand out? other systems has spell points or abilities etc but only D&D had this unique concept. It used to be the first system that everybody tried before moving on to other concepts, now I think its an also ran. I'll look at it, but i don't think D&D is unique anymore!!!!! A lot of this is not really that fundamental to D&D. Perhaps the Vancian spell system is, but the rest is the sort of thing that many homebrew campaigns are likely to either ignore or alter significantly. I know mine does, and I've been playing since before the 1st edition AD&D PHB came out.
MarkusTay63 01-21-08, 03:20 PM	First, I’d like to thank Charles for creating this more ‘comprehensive’ thread – I tried turning one of the others into an ‘over-thread’, but some people just like to create separate threads for every little thing. Also, his very neutral stance is commendable, and currently mirrors my own. I’m all over the place with my feelings on this, and each separate part of the new D&D should be examined within its own context, rather the just “throwing the baby out with the bathwater”. Furthermore, Exalted is one of the few settings I’m unfamiliar with, so it was nice to see your take on that as well. Running Commentary: I was going to point out Bruce Cordell for the Far Realms, but Rich (who is apparently not as absent as he would like us to believe) has already corrected Mr. Phipps. In fact, I even asked a question about this point in the designer’s thread, but it has thus far gone unanswered (basically, who is responsible for what?) Dragons could always be of either alignment, despite what it said in the MM – I can point to dozens of examples in older lore, but I don’t want to fill this thread up. Changing the two core ones really isn’t much of a big deal, since they already existed, and we will be getting the other two back in a later supplement. Giants – I like the core concept there, but I have to see the finished product before I make any judgment calls. It could be truly excellent, if they don’t f___ it up. Inhuman Civilizations – I think having too much of this creates a cartoonish world, not a high-fantasy one. Some of my favorite novel series have had NO non-humans (or practically none) – The Belgariad, The Foundation Trilogy, Dune (the aliens were all off-shoots of humanity), the Elric novels (the main race being the exception), Conan (with only a handful of ‘monster’ exceptions, but no races/kingdoms), FMA (with the human-created homunculi being the one exception), ect, ect… – You add too many non-human elements, and you wind-up with Pokémon, Dragontails, or the Cowboys of Moo Mesa. :rolleyes: Undead – I was always confused by how the whole ‘Undead’ thing worked, not rules-wise, but rather how it all fit together in the cosmology. People deferred to the 2e Planscape supplement On Hallowed Ground, but that was a different setting and rules edition. Souls going to a ‘final reward’, while their brain/memories floated in ‘storage’ in little bubbles in the Astral(?) seemed like a bit of a cop-out, to explain certain things. Whats the point of an afterlife, if you lose your sense of self? Hopefully, the rules regarding the three separate ‘aspects’ of life (body, mind & soul) will be handled better within the new mechanics. Feywild & Shadowfel (it really should have only one ‘L’ – it looks more fantasy-like) _ I hate to admit it, but I really like this stuff. The reason why I automatically want to hate it is because it is lifted directly from Birthright – the one and only D&D setting I never purchased a single product for. However, all prejudices aside, I think it could not only work, but work WELL. THAT’S a hard pill for me to swallow, but they’ve been avoiding creating any sort of ‘Faerie lore’ for 3e, and I think the reason behind that is that they DID – but it was SO friggin’ good, they decided to wrap an entire edition around it. Enter the Fey… ;) Other Planar stuff -I’d prefer to call The Far Realms Xoriat; its simpler, and more original sounding. After all, why the hell would creatures from there name it The Far Realms? That doesn’t sound like something ‘Anti-deluvian Horrors’ would come up with. More focus on the City of Brass, and less on Sigil is not good, but I think Sigil will become the Astral Crossroads, where as the CoB is the one for the Elemental Tempest. Gods/Divine Stuff – Most of what we know will happen is now old news - They sprung it (sneakily) on us at the tail-end of 3e, in the GHotR. Anyway, I’ve already come down off of that emotional rollercoaster. I really HATE that they got rid of Intermediate gods – even in real mythology, there were always the heavy-hitters, the secondary gods, and the ones you barely even heard about. Demi-gods being saints is a good fit, and humans being able to ascend to this status also fits, and is a major throw-back to the OD&D days. So, while I’m hating the changes to FR’s gods, I like the Core Pantheon, and am willing to wait and see what sort of IG explanation they come up with for the divine re-shuffle. Wee Jas is becoming a Fate God? Does that mean we may see her down in Zakhara? :smirk: Fiends, Gods, and other things – Fiends will still fight Fiends, if they get in each other’s way. I’m sure that on some plane somewhere, all-out war has broken out between the Baatezu and the Tanarri; that doesn’t mean that EVERY Demon and EVERY Devil gets sucked into it. That’s also canon, BTW – there are hundreds of instances of both types of fiends completely ignoring the Bloodwar and its existence. Also, there is just as much, if not more, of Demons fighting Demons! I never ‘got’ that they would all fight together in some incomprehensibly vast army – they’re CHAOTIC, for Chrisakes! With the new rules, we could have the Demons constantly attacking each other, and perhaps hiring some Devil Mercenaries to help them out. In that light, the Bloodwar becomes just a single battlefield in the multiverse, and only one set of circumstances. The Devils wanting ‘soul contracts’, and the new spin on all of this, is a bit too Judaeo-Christian for my liking, but it seems too fit, especially when we look at the Universe from an even grander scale. Still, on a purely mortal level, I don’t understand why evil doesn’t fight evil anymore – that’s a core concept in FR! In a more neutrally-aligned world, which is what it appears they are shooting for, then evil should get in the way of evil, and so should good oft-times get in the way of good. Real thinking creatures have their own agendas, and alignment has nothing to do with who they will crush if they get in their way. Gods and Primordials warring? That’s taken from nearly every single RW mythology out there, so that’s both ‘fantastical’ and ‘mundane’, because its all been done before. I can’t make any final calls with this either, but it can go either way, depending on how good the material they come up with is. The concept of ‘Elemental Evil’ is an old one, and it brings back some of that old-school flavor, so I can live with that. Fluffy Cloud Heaven – I prefer this sort of ‘cushy’ afterlife myself. Not knowing where you are going to go sort of detracts from the entire purpose of religion. Even Hades had separate places, depending on the kind of life you lead. Levels – I never got rid of the Zeroed Level Character in my games, but I used it as it was intended, not as written. Also, I only had children under thirteen be ‘zeroeth level' – between 13-16 a person is level one, and in most cases at 18 they became level 2. That’s where commoners stayed in my games, unless they were also part of the Militia, or an ex-adventurer. Normally, I start my players at 2, and then allow them to get to 3 fairly quickly. This new approach of having everyone being this level zero is just wrong. A farmer living in The North is going to be pretty damn handy with his scythe, as opposed to some new, wet-behind-the-ears city-slicker out for some adventure. For the sake of playability, I understand why they feel there is a need to simplify the rules – my sons were taken aback at the sheer number of books they needed to play (not FR, mind you, just core). Faster, more exciting encounters seems the way to go, and actually gives us BETTER chances to RP, IMHO. Up until now, the final encounter was pretty much what the adventure was all about. And nearly everything lead up to it, because it took up a good chunk of the play-session. Anything that allows me to get through combats more quickly, while yet adding more depth, is an incredibly useful tool, and will allow me to spend more time developing the adventures in other ways. Once again, all of this depends on what they actually come up with – they may have very well bitten off far more then they can chew. Mid-driffs – While I like the quality of the new art, I find some of it a bit ‘odd’. Everyone looks Oriental except Halflings, who apper to have become more Afro-American looking! And don’t even get me started on the Voltron Armor. I think Exposed Mid-driff will be a Feat in 4e – it causes a -1 modifiers to all of your opponents combat rolls because of distraction, and allows a +1 to all reaction checks while dealing with members of the opposite sex(ual inclination). :P Classes – can’t really comment on these until I see the new ones. Druids becoming even more WoW-ish… No Monk or Bard at the outset… I’m getting a feeling of dread, with some of this. I like that fighters now become interesting, and not some guy who only steps to the front and rolls dice when called upon. Races – The new take on Elves I can live with – it really isn’t all that different from what we already had.; using the name ‘Eladrin’ was imbecilic, since it would have been much better to create a new name or take one from Folklore, rather then change an existing creature into something else. Same can be said of Dragonborn, which is the SINGLE BIGGEST PROBLEM I’m am having with excepting 4e FR. When you have a setting with dozens upon DOZENS of already existing ‘scaley races’, why in Heaven’s name would you go and add yet another one?! Especially re-named Draconians! They are why I avoided DL in the first place. Tieflings – “MEH”; I can take them or leave them. I know some people are crying about their lore change, but I’m really not seeing much of a difference there (“Did I say my father was a Fiend? I’m sorry, I meant me Grandfather…”). Dwarf Women without Beards – that only changes in Core – in 3e RoF the designers pretty much threw that choice in our laps, and we can decide what clans have beards and which don’t. IMG, only the ones from the Moonshaes have beards, because they were the ones that had them in novels. I really like the new Halflings, if only because it takes them further away from the concept of ‘small humans’. I suppose that is why they are having a problem with Gnomes – right now they are just ‘small Dwarves’. I hope they come up with something decent for them down the road. Magic - I left this for last, because I think that it may be one of the touchiest subjects we will be dealing with once the rules comes out. I never liked the Vancian system, but I used it; it was well-balanced. I'm also well-aware of its limitations, not so much in game-mechanics, but in stroy-telling. I think novels may have something to do with this push, but I'm not against it. I will miss the old system, but only because it was like a crotchity old friend. Nostalgia really isn't a very good reason to keep something, though, and the new system sounds like it has TONS of potential. Hopefully, it lives up to it. Summation: So aside from trimming the Pantheon, and those horrendous Draco... Dragonborn, I can live with most of this. Its more of the way we look at things – I agree with Gray Richardson here, in that we now have a new ‘lens’ with which to perceive old lore. We needn’t change the lore, we merely need to re-evaluate what we ‘know’ happened. I’m looking forward to creating tons of home-brew lore to explain the changes, and in a way, I prefer that to the designers doing it for us. In the long run, we are going to decide what we will use in our games, not them. The setting as presented only matters to the novels, and I could take that or leave it - most of them weren't all that great anyway.
Fingoldfin 01-21-08, 04:28 PM	[QUOTE=Gray Richardson;14881305] However, certain legacy aspects of D&D (such as the Vancian spell system and the alignment system) that have been carried down from the very beginning through all editions so far have been reexamined and if they hindered rather than helped game play, have been jettisoned or retooled in favor of streamlined mechanics that are more easily playable and fun. While they have indeed sacrificed many of the old sacred cows, the herd will be healthier, more robust, and stronger for it. ;) The alignment rules should have been softened not thrown away. Law, chaos, evil, and good all exist in real life. Hitler was an evil authoritarian. His D&D alignment would clearly be lawful evil. Many people have some tendencies toward one alignment or another. Look at our political system in the US. Republicans are authoritarian. They like to follow a strong leader. They are clearly lawful. Liberals are far more chaotic. Go to any left wing meeting at a college. It will most likely start late and be slightly disorganized. Go to a conservative meeting at a college and it will start on time and have very little debating. Republicans and liberals are mostly good people that disagree on how the country should be run. In real life most people don't care. They just want to live their lives. Your average person is neutral. That's why many don't bother to vote. The second problem I have with the alignment change is it forces a major retcon of D&D cosmology. I am a big Planescape fan. I like Tanar'ri, Baaetzu, and Yugoloths. They had a rich history and lore built around them. Now they are all demons or fallen angels and feel a lot more generic. Are Slaadi also demons now? I think the alignment problems could have been fixed by emphasizing that most mortals are neutral and by explaining that alignment among mortals should be downplayed. The only sacred cow that I thought should be slaughtered was the hit point system. A first level human fighter can be killed by one hit from a great sword, but a tenth level human fighter can't be? Players are far more likely to jump into combat because they're not afraid to fight a room full of low level guards. All of my 4e complaints come down to a matter of taste really. I understand that the designers put a lot of effort into the new system and lore, but I won't buy anything I don't like.
GreenKnight 01-21-08, 04:49 PM	The alignment rules should have been softened not thrown away. From what I can see, that's exactly what's happened. Alignment's been softened, but not throw away. A couple examples of that... What changes are in store for alignment? "In the end, there's still alignment. There will be some changes though. There'll be some tweaks... Even non-gamers know what a 12th level lawful good paladin is." In response to a poster asking whether WotC considered changing the name of the paladin in light of the fact that paladins can be of any alignment, Rich Baker had this to say: "Yes, the question was considered, but ultimately it boils down to this: We want one class in the job of "holy warrior", not nine...Currently the text in the Player's Handbook says something to this effect: Paladins are almost always lawful or good. Chaotic or evil paladins do exist in the world, but they're almost never heroes; go see the DM if you want to play one." The new rules for D&D Miniatures also make mention of alignment, although they only mention Good, Evil, or Unaligned. Alignments determine who can and can't work together within a certain faction.
Charles Phipps 01-21-08, 04:51 PM	In apologies for my Bruce Cordell mistake and implications that this wasn't more a group project, I shall now actually review something by Richie Baker. This is the third major portion of the 4E material so far released. Feel free to comment on the bits that interest you. Countdown to the Realms Review The Realms of 1479 DR Ninety-four years ago, Mystra perished and the world went mad.[/quote] And thus we pick up from where the Spell Plague happened and establish that we're now 100 years in the Realms future (rounding). It's a big change that makes a lot of NPCs dead but it also prevents the Realms from being essentially a Post-Apocalyptic experience. Unfortunately, we don't get to see Alusair and Caladnei deal with the horror....or we might, I don't know. Frankly, I hope the Novels will stick with the present timeline for the next couple of years. On the other hand, I also know that Ed Greenwood has literally like THOUSANDS of pages of unused Realms Lore. A lot of this is NPCs. I can't imagine that he won't simply move what's appropriate as well. Murders aside, we'll also still have a lot of Gnome and Elf and Dwarf PCs. Plus, Legacy characters aren't always bad. The Heroes of the Lance were awesome but I *LIKED* Palin Majere and his brothers from Dragonlance. I'd be interested in meeting a Half-Elf (quirk of genetics) David Moonblade. Unchecked, ungoverned, the raw stuff of wild magic danced across the world, wreaking terrible destruction. Cities burned, kingdoms fell, luckless people were changed into monsters, and mages went berserk. This was the Spellplague, a rippling outbreak of hundreds, perhaps thousands, of magical catastrophes that left no corner of Faerūn untouched. For almost ten years new outbreaks appeared here and there, striking randomly and without warning. Wherever they struck, chaos reigned. It's a rather lengthy and terrible event that, frankly, doesn't bode well for our characters. After the return of Bane, the Return of Shade, the Fey'ri Invasion, the Cult of the Dragon's attacks, the death of Khelban, and similiar horrors....it's been a truly :censored: period for the whole of Faerun. Frankly, I don't envy any stories that are told in this period. Worse, there's no actual enemy to triumph over, it seems to be just the aftermath of the destruction of the Weave plus whatever Godswar style catastrophe is being fought in the Heavens. During the Year of Blue Fire and the terrible years that followed, heroes all over Faerūn battled to contain the magical plague. In some places they succeeded; in others, they failed and died horribly. Places guarded by powerful, persistent magical wards were largely unharmed; the Spellplague flowed around mythals and other such mighty enchantments. But even then, some mythal-guarded sites fell prey to invasions of plaguechanged monsters or the spells of maddened archmages. No place was truly safe. This will, presumably, be the end of a lot of the heroes of the past. Khelban is dead, Sylune is Dead Dead (she was already dead), and we know that Bruenor Battlehammer seems to be dead from Drizzt's monologue despite the fact that he should just be an elderly dwarf now. Drizzt's statements about the Spirit Soaring are that we'll probably also see the death of Caderly as well. Honestly, I'm not looking forward to a mass murder of heroes. In many places, the Spellplague wrought drastic changes to the very shape of the world. The vast Underdark system beneath the western Shaar suffered a calamitous collapse, leaving a miles-deep pit the size of a country where the Landrise once ran. Thay’s forbidding plateaus were lifted thousands of feet higher, leaving many of its cities in ruins. The Priador and eastern Thesk are a maze of monster-haunted foothills beneath Thay’s daunting ramparts now. Fencelike ridges of glass spires, drifting earthmotes covered in weird aerial forests, towering mesas of whorled stone… all over Faerūn magical landscapes are interspersed with the common rock and root of the lands that existed before. Even in countries that survived the Spellplague more or less intact, these “changelands” stand as striking new landmarks—landmarks that sometimes harbor monsters never before seen in Faerūn. I think the loss of the Shaar is a bit of a tragedy because we really don't need a ginormous hole where we used to have African Savannahs (While Chult is the African Congo, this was another major portion of the feel for it). Frankly, I'm not sure what the whole adventuring prospects of a ginormous hole are. It's one thing if it's like the Shadow Rift and filled with Faeries but it seems like it's just a ginormous hole. Thay seems to have been devastated but what happened 94 years ago is not necessarilly going to have much of an effect on the present era. It's been 50 years since World War 2 and it was less than that between WW2 and WW1. The human race has a tendency to bounce back from atrocity rather well. It's my hope Thay is largely unchanged. In time, the fury of the Spellplague burned itself out. New outbreaks became fewer and weaker, and finally seemed to cease altogether. Pockets of “live” Spellplague still exist in a few places known as plaguelands; one of the largest is a vast waste known as the Changing Lands, where Sespech and Chondath used to be. Few people dare to enter such places, but from time to time they disgorge horribly mutated monsters, tormenting the lands nearby. No new plaguelands have appeared in decades now, and some seem to be weakening as the years pass. But the damage has already been done This seems very little different from the Wild Magic Zones post the TOT. No one will ever be able to create a comprehensive chronology of where and when each outbreak struck, or how each town and city fared through the chaos of the Plague Years. Countless thousands of people fled from each new outbreak, migrating here and there across the continent. War, rebellion, and brigandage reigned unchecked. Mad prophets walked the world, preaching that the Spellplague was the wrath of this god or that and demanding repentance, sacrifice, or holy war in atonement. Anarchy descended over most kingdoms and lasted for a generation or more before some semblance of authority was reestablished. The world that emerged from the Plague Years was not the same Faerūn. I like the deliberate parallels between the Black Death and the Spellplague here. This is something I've been using in my own campaign where I suggest that a substantial number of people of Faerun's 64 million people perished in the horror (in my game, the total causalties of the Spell Plague are 1.4 million---which may not seem like much but is pretty damn nightmarish). The Spellplague left the cities of the Sword Coast almost unscathed. Perhaps it was attenuated by the lingering high magic of ancient Illefarn, perhaps it was deflected by the efforts of mighty heroes, or perhaps sheer chance steered the magical contagion away from the Sea of Swords; however it happened, the Sword Coast looks much as it did a hundred years ago. Frankly, this is kinda disappointing since if any place needed a thorough disaster to start anew then it would be the Sword Coast. I hate the Lords Alliance and frankly wish it would be more like Neverwinter Nights where one city could plunder or destroy one without repercussions. Certainly, Westgate and Luskan are both cities that the destruction thereof could only improve the Populous' lot. In Waterdeep the great walking statues hidden within the city arose for a single day and wrecked several wards, only to suddenly halt where they stood when the Spellplague’s influence retreated again. To this day the towering colossi remain standing where they were at that moment, while the city has been rebuilt around their stony waists. Waterdeep is still governed by its Lords, advised by the Blackstaff—the most powerful mage of Blackstaff Tower, heir to the lore of the mighty Khelben. The city remains a hub of trade and commerce; all roads lead to Waterdeep, or so it is said. Waterdeep seems to have been severely damaged but otherwise seems unchanged. One major change is that Stephen Schned's idea that Khelben's heir would continue to impersonate him is something that will not be the case. I wonder how this will be handled in the Blackstaff novel. Still, the events here are clearly too large for any single book series to cover. To the south, the city of Baldur’s Gate became a refuge for countless thousands fleeing the ruin wrought by the Spellplague in the lands south of the Sea of Fallen Stars. Where other cities and lands turned away such refugees, Baldur’s Gate tolerated them… and now, almost a century later, it is the largest city in Faerūn, sprawling for mile after mile along the banks of the Chionthar. Each group of refugees created their own neighborhood under the walls of the previous immigrants’ districts, and the city is a mad patchwork of crowded neighborhoods, each dominated by a single race or human ethnicity such as dwarf, halfling, gnome, Turmic, or Shaaran. I like the view of Baldur's Gate as the Los Angeles of the Forgotten Realms. Frankly, ethnic strife is always fun and the idea of a city of simmering racial and economic tensions is something that is rife with adventuring possibilities. Also, Baldur's Gate will hopefully start looking like a genuine Kingdom as opposed to just being a City-State. Frankly, it bodes well for it. Across the Sea of Swords, the Moonshaes have fallen into a patchwork of small kingdoms. Caer Calidyrr still stands as the chief kingdom of the native Moonshavians (the Ffolk), but over the last century the powerful mainland realm of Amn has set its sights on this land. Amnite merchant-lords control much of the large island of Gwynneth, while the warlike Northlanders hold Oman and Norland. The Feywild, the realm of Faerie, lies close to Faerūn here, and from its shadows a dire new threat is gathering—the terrible fomorians, who dream of sweeping away the human kingdoms and subjugating the islands beneath their mighty fists. The devastation implied of High King Tristan Kendrick's Dynasty is a tragedy and I think it's safe to assume that Alicia Kendrick plus her consort might have met a less than wonderful end. Frankly, I never really warmed up to them after the tragic death of Diedre whom wormed her way into my heart despite being a Priestess of Talos. Nevertheless, they're going all out Celtic Isles here and it doesn't seem to be too problematic for me. The kingdom always did seem a little too peaceful under the Kendrick's benevolent guidance (It was the "Other Cormyr" in my realms). Between the North and the Moonsea Lands lies a land under the dominion of shadow. The reborn Empire of Netheril now lies in the basin that once held the desert Anauroch. The new Netheril claims all of the lands that ancient Netheril once occupied, and seeks to dominate Faerūn just as ancient Netheril did twenty centuries ago. Much of Anauroch’s vast basin is still desolate wasteland, but the lords of Netheril have spent decades weaving mighty spells to summon water to the parched lands and fill the empty skies with rain. Slowly but surely, grassland grows over the dunes, and young forests cover the stony barrens. Well, this unfortunately confirms that the Empire of Shade managed to get through this calamity intact. I've honestly felt that they were too powerful as villains to be truly effective and Shar's priesthood rather annoys me. I was hoping that, if Netheril survived in any form, it wouldn't necessarilly be all under the dominion of Night/Dark Magic. I'm saddened to see the largest desert in Faerun go as well. Ruha and her lover Lander's adventures there seem so pointless now. Thayans are powerful but range in levels. Netheril is a magical tyranny, governed by a noble caste of shades—powerful human mages and lords who have exchanged their mortal essences for the stuff of shadow. Beneath the shade lords are the citizens of Shade, the ancient city-state that fled into the plane of Shadow when the old empire fell and survived many centuries in dark exile. They are a race of ambitious and masterful humans who strive to advance the power of their realm, hoping to earn the reward of transformation into undying shades themselves. When folk of other lands refer to “the Netherese,” they mean the people of Shade, both human and shadow-transformed. The main issue I have is that it sort of limits what can be done in Netheril. Evil Empires are all well and good but there's all manner of badness that can be done in Cormyr while it still being a "point of light." I think I may have enjoyed the old Netheril boxed set too much since it's poisoned me against the solely Shade-dominated Netheril we have now. Also, give me Zhents and Knights of the Shield scheming to dominate the Realms more than the Netherse any day. Decades ago, the Netherese subjugated the nomads of Anauroch and many of the savage humanoid tribes inhabiting the desert. More importantly, the Netherese seized control of the wealthy nation of Sembia in the Twilight War just before the advent of the Spellplague, and they have not relinquished it since. Sembia is the crown jewel of the Empire of Netheril, and provides the Netherese with the wealth and manpower they need to bring more of Faerūn under their control. Only the fragile alliance of Myth Drannor, Cormyr, Evereska, and Luruar checks Netheril’s further expansion… and Netherese diplomats and agents work constantly to break the alliance apart. Dammit, well that spoils the ending of the Erevis Cale trilogy I'm currently enjoying. While I don't mind what Richard Baker is sharing, it does make me know that Erevis isn't going to be able to save his homeland from the domination of the Shade. The Uskervans are pretty much doomed to become tools of the Shade or flee to become minor Cormyrean citizens. Ultimately, I wonder what this means for the Cult of the Dragon. Is it destroyed completely as of the death of Sammaster? Is it now a tool of the Shade? A resistance? Moved? While Netheril claims all of Anauroch and the neighboring lands, the Netherese are still few in number, and great portions of this desolate land are left to ruins and monsters. The ruined cities of old Netheril and the Underdark caverns of the monstrous phaerimm (now all but extirpated from the Realms) hold many secrets the shades want to remain hidden, and ancient treasures they seek desperately to recover. Actually, I'm surprised in a century of gathering the survivors of Netheril and breeding them like rabbits (plus wouldn't they take in the survivors of Haruula?) that they weren't able to reclaim all of their cities. I am glad that the Phaerimm are no longer everywhere. They were a monstrous blight that really shouldn't have been introduced in vast numbers. [End Part One]
18DELTA 01-21-08, 05:25 PM	Honestly, I'm not looking forward to a mass murder of heroes. -Nah...it should be fun, all those other heroes are gone now so my 12th level munchkin wont feel soo...overshadowed now!!! Phat lootz herz Iz comz!!!:rolleyes: I think the loss of the Shaar is a bit of a tragedy because we really don't need a ginormous hole where we used to have African Savannahs (While Chult is the African Congo, this was another major portion of the feel for it). Frankly, I'm not sure what the whole adventuring prospects of a ginormous hole are. It's one thing if it's like the Shadow Rift and filled with Faeries but it seems like it's just a ginormous hole. -Yeah...it would match the other hole in the Shaar huh? Or did it just enlarge their ginormuos abode. Might bode well for the stout folk. They get an even bigger sandbox to play in!!!:D I like the view of Baldur's Gate as the Los Angeles of the Forgotten Realms. Frankly, ethnic strife is always fun and the idea of a city of simmering racial and economic tensions is something that is rife with adventuring possibilities. Also, Baldur's Gate will hopefully start looking like a genuine Kingdom as opposed to just being a City-State. Frankly, it bodes well for it. -Maybe...we could play up some race riots. Those are allways fun...NOT!!!:rolleyes: Rodney King coming soon to the Realms near you.:rolleyes: Dammit, well that spoils the ending of the Erevis Cale trilogy I'm currently enjoying. While I don't mind what Richard Baker is sharing, it does make me know that Erevis isn't going to be able to save his homeland from the domination of the Shade. The Uskervans are pretty much doomed to become tools of the Shade or flee to become minor Cormyrean citizens. -I think alot of the noblity winds up in Ravens Bluff, or across the pond somewhere. Might be interesting from a rebal alliance(of thats allready been done how original WotC.:rolleyes: ) LORD DELTA;)
MarkusTay63 01-21-08, 05:45 PM	You know, a Sembian Rebel Alliance beng covertly controlled by the remnants of the Cult of the Dragon would be Camapign worthy - if they didn't already say they WILL NOT use evil against evil. They took all the fun out of the Realms. :( Yeah - I worked REAL hard at bringing back Shaareach (http://markustay.deviantart.com/art/The-Shaar-69592760), and now they just went and f___ed it all up again. I hate Ginormous holes... guess I'll be tossing that map out. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Baldur's Gate only got bigger too give Bioware a larger playground. Don't expect to see any printed material for the city - unless it comes with the CD. :rolleyes: Although 'Ghetto Gnomes' could be kinda fun. :D The Netherse rising in power really sucks. They, along with the Shadow weave, were amongst the BIGGEST complaints amongst FR fans. And yet, we get MORE of them, not less... :uh-huh: Almost as if someone has an agenda.. the fans be damned.
18DELTA 01-21-08, 05:56 PM	You know, a Sembian Rebel Alliance beng covertly controlled by the remnants of the Cult of the Dragon would be Camapign worthy - if they didn't already say they WILL NOT use evil against evil. They took all the fun out of the Realms. :( -The jerks!!!;) Yeah - I worked REAL hard at bringing back Shaareach (http://markustay.deviantart.com/art/The-Shaar-69592760), and know they just went and f___ed it all up again. I hate Ginormous holes... guess I'll be tossing that map out. -The jerks!!!;) But their are some ginormous HOLES that I do like!!!:D I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Baldur's Gate only got bigger too give Bioware a larger playground. Don't expect to se any printed material for the city - unless it comes with the CD. :rolleyes: Although 'Ghetto Gnomes' could be kinda fun. :D -The Jerks!!!;) Nah..."Ghetto Orcs' For-Shizzle!!!:P The Netherse rising in power really sucks. They, along with the Shadow weave, were amongst the BIGGEST complaints amongst FR fans. And yet, we get MORE of them, not less... :uh-huh: Almost as if someone has an agenda.. the fans be damned. -The Jerks!!!:P We should start threads about how 'Shar' and her 'cronies' are over shadowing(literaly) our 16th level munchkins, and keeping us fromz thez phatz lootz!!!:rolleyes: LORD DELTA:P
MarkusTay63 01-21-08, 06:06 PM	Phat Lewtz must be stopped!!!
Kenzuki 01-21-08, 06:09 PM	Phat Lewtz must be stopped!!! That's Unpossible!
18DELTA 01-21-08, 06:12 PM	Phat Lewtz mustz bez stoppedz!1!1!111 -:rofl:111 Fixed it for yaz!1!1!111:P LORD DELTA!1!1!1!11:D
MarkusTay63 01-21-08, 07:40 PM	I can't seem to get the whole 'Mid-driff' thing out of my head... Maybe Bellybuttons will be a new item slot in 4e. :P
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-21-08, 07:48 PM	I always find your comments entertaining and thought provoking to be honest, nothing more than that. Recent arguments inspired me to write this post to explain my opinions better, so I thought I'd actually mention that you were the driving force behind it (which may confuse you). Well, thank you.:) In Races and Classes, I'll comment that Richard's "Old School" nature on D&D rather causes me some annoyance thanks to his dismissal of non-traditional gods for adventurers. He dismisses Chauntaea and other goddesses far too much. Oh yeah, I can't say I was too happy about that, myself. Of course, I'm the type who can find reasons for the clerics of any god to go out adventuring.
Charles Phipps 01-21-08, 07:51 PM	Countdown to the Realms Review Cormyr is a strong, stable kingdom that has benefited from back-to-back reigns by very capable monarchs. Azoun V, born in the troubling times at the end of his grandfather’s reign, went on to become a just, wise, and long-lived ruler. Under his rule Cormyr quickly recovered from the chaos of the Plague Years. Azoun V successfully resisted Netheril’s efforts to bring Cormyr under its domionion, and he fought Netherese-sponsored Sembia to a stalemate in a war 40 years ago, preserving Cormyr from Sembia’s fate. Late in his reign, Azoun V enacted a new code of laws that restrained the power of Cormyr’s restless nobility and established rights for commoners oppressed by nobles. His son Foril is now king of Cormyr. Honestly, this rather sidesteps the fact that I never liked Azoun the Fifth. His mother and Alusair were amongst the best characters in Forgotten Realms while he was also living in the shadow of his father. Still, I like to think that Alusair and Caladnei are trapped in a Stasis Bubble with Vangerdahast somewhere. The bit about establishing rules for the protection of commoners from the wrath of nobles is a Big theme in Imperial Comyr since they mentioned it in Guide to the Realms, to be perfectly honest, I'm not really sure why that is since Cormyr has never really come off as a center of vast noble oppression. The nobles are :censored: yes but not causal exploiters of Ye Common ManTM. Foril has ruled for 30 years now, and while he is not the legendary warrior his great-grandfather was or the brilliant law-giver his father was, he is a shrewd statesman and administrator. Foril continued his father’s reforms, and authored the alliance of powers that keeps Netheril at bay. Standing between Sembia and Netheril, Cormyr’s best security lies in firm alliance with Myth Drannor and the Dalelands. Cormyr is wealthier and more powerful than it’s been in centuries, largely due to the foresight and determination of the Obarskyrs. It's interesting that Floril's character is immediately introduced to us by saying he's not nearly as good as the original King of Cormyr or the man that came before him that we never met. It's an interesting take for what amounts to our first introduction to the "new" Forgotten Realms. I'm a bit disappointed it's another King *yawn* and not a Queen, though. Maybe Waterdeep will have a FEMALE Piergerion this time. Nevertheless, I'm glad Cormyr is at it's 1E heights again. Cormyr now controls Daerlun and Urmlaspyr, two formerly Sembian cities that managed to break away from that realm before the Netherese yoke settled completely over them. During the chaos of the Spellplague and the years that followed, the small cities on the southern shore of the Dragonmere turned to Cormyr for protection. Only ten years ago, the thief-ruled city of Proskur proved so obnoxious to the Forest Kingdom’s growing trade and prosperity that King Foril brought it under Cormyr’s authority as well. Not all of these territories are content under Cormyrean rule. Honestly, Imperial Cormyr isn't that much bigger as near as I can tell. When I first heard about it, I had assumed that it had annexed possibly the whole of the Dalelands or had finally conquered Sembia (which would have made it an Empire and ruined any chance for Zhentil Keep to oppose it). This is, in my opinion, a slightly larger Cormyr rather than an Empire. If it has Maztican colonies and has taken over the Moonshaes, then we can talk Empire. Still, it's interesting to speculate that Proskur might have become the new Arabel (rebellious hot-seat of disconnect and murder). Adventurers in the service of the Crown find plenty of excitement in the Stonelands, the Tunlands, and the Stormhorns, where various monsters and savage tribes (some secretly sponsored by Netheril) cause no small amount of trouble. Oh for :censored: sake! :nonono: This is where Richard and the designers of the Realms are clearly preserving the "Classic" adventuring areas of the Realms but I am rolling my eyes nevertheless. It's 100 years later and adventurers are still trying to tame the Stonelands. Really, I'm annoyed there's been no mention of the Zhents so far since frankly, I could care less about the Netherese compared to the Black Network. But this goes to show you how canon will always diverge from individual games since the Stonelands have been settled in my games for a decade now. Along the shore of the Alamber Sea, old Unther was swept away by a catastrophic outbreak of the Spellplague. Where once ancient Unther stood now stands an arid mesa-land inhabited by draconic humanoids calling themselves dragonborn. This is the realm of Tymanther. The dragonborn have proven to be a proud, martial race, and in the decades since the Year of Blue Fire they have slowly tamed the ruined changeland from the Riders to the Sky all the way to the Black Ash Plain. Unther is one of the *quote* *unquote* Big Changes here. I imagine that Ed Greenwood's section of the FCS4E will be the Heartlands, because Ed Greenwood :love: the Heartlands and we can expect him to do a bang-up job with the favorite place of all Faerunian adventurers. However, Unther and the other distant regions seems to be the subjects of the most radical re-invisionings. Tymanther is not too deeply decsribed here but there's some hints of what it is. Frankly, there's no indication about the Untherese themselves (thanks to R_F for pointing this out to me) when I initially assumed they'd be the slaves of the Dragonborn. One thing, the Dragonborn are said to be a "proud martial race" so it's possible they'll be LE types. Ultimately, I'm not sure whether a city of Draconians really interests me. What exactly is their function and how do they relate to the rest of Faerun, really? The Thayans are always plotting evil, do these guys have any ambition or the portals to dominate the whole of Faerun? What makes them interesting? What motivated Richard Baker to say "I want The City of the Lizard Men." (which would make a good module title) Some say that the dragonborn are creations of Tiamat, hatched from vast incubators hidden beneath temples of the dragon-goddess in the cities of Unther. Others believe that the dragonborn are descended from the human population of the old empire, changed by the touch of the Spellplague into something no longer human. But the truth of the matter is even stranger: As it did in many other places in Faerūn, the Spellplague opened the door to some other realm entirely, wrenching the aeries and castles of the dragonborn from their native land—wherever that once was—and depositing them amid the chaos of devastated Unther. Personally, they're clearly trying to make us interested in the Dragonborn. I'm not sure that I honestly am that interested in the origins presented here. Though, the prospect of all of the Untherese being turned into Dragonkind is a bit strange and I think could well be an iteresting novel-series. The Spell Plague opening a door to another world is a bit too "Dragonlance" even if there's a lot of that going around (The Mulhorandi and Orc's origins for example) The dragonborn of Tymanther are highly militarized, and the “lords” of the land are those dragonborn who have proven themselves capable of leading their fellows. It is a harsh and unforgiving meritocracy, and each of the kingdom’s great clans is organized more like an army than a noble house. In the world from which they came, the dragonborn fought many terrible wars against true dragons, and they still harbor an ancestral hate for the winged wyrms. I'm not sure this is a good decision to be honest. if you're going to have a bunch of Tiamat worshiping Part-Dragons, then do you really want them hating Dragons? You might as well make them outright Lizardmen. Tis a pity, I was hoping this would be the Cult of the Dragon's new home. Tymanther lies atop the rubble of ancient Unther, and Untheric ruins are common throughout the land. Even in its decline, Unther was a rich and populous land, and many palaces and treasure vaults of the God-King’s favorites still wait to be discovered. In other places, broken cities carried into Faerūn from Tymanther’s appearance are likewise storehouses of gold, gems, and magical artifacts. Unfortunately, many powerful monsters settled into these Untheric and Tymantheran ruins during the Plague Years, and still pose a deadly threat to those who delve too deeply. Unther is now officially a "lost civilization" but it's interesting to wonder what exactly great stores of loot they're supposed to have. Unther was pretty much looted completely as far as I could tell. But yes, I'm concerned what happened to the enslaved people of Unther and where they are now. Also of concern is what's happened to the surrounding territories and their population for this new and vast Lizardman Kingdom. Mulhorandi wasn't really that interesting to me but I think we'd be losing a great deal of diversity if it's just now part of the Lizardman Kingdom. Ultimately, I hope they do something interesting with Mulhorandi though since I was most interested in it when it started conquering Unther. This brief discussion touches on only a few of Faerūn’s myriad kingdoms and peoples. It’s a quick sketch of how a century has changed several familiar lands, and a look at one new land that has arisen during that time. Many of Faerūn’s most iconic locales are still what they were a century ago; wood elves still roam the High Forest, and pirates still sail the Sea of Fallen Stars. Other places such as Unther have changed drastically, as described above. But above all Faerūn remains a land of high magic, terrifying monsters, ancient ruins, and hidden wonders—the essential fantasy world for your players to explore. This part of the article seems devoted to the idea of reminding us that most of the place will still be the same. Fundamentally, this is a good reminder that D&D is still a game about THIS... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goedL4v0eoo As long as this describes the Forgotten Realms, then we're alright. In upcoming previews, we’ll take a more thorough look at other aspects of the new Faerūn—the fate of the Chosen, the nature of the pantheon, how magic has changed in the world, and an introduction to some of the new threats that now menace Faerūn. Good fortune and good adventuring until next time! I shall be reviewing these as well, if people are still interested in my thoughts.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-21-08, 07:54 PM	4. Angels are much more interventionalist and as powerful as their Demonic Counterparts, just not as good. The Angels issue is something I'm not sure I like. Granted, I understand (and kind of agree with) the new design principle not to worry about needless symmetry. But it doesn't seem right to me that Demons and Devils are still pretty much all evil, while there doesn't seem to be any race of beings that's all good. Like it or not, beings of pure goodness are a pretty common thing in fantasy (or at least as far as I've seen), just as much as beings of pure evil are.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-21-08, 08:02 PM	Apparently bare midriffs aren't restricted to the women. Just check out the Male Human Fighter on page 88. I see belly button! And... it... irritates... me! Yup, and most of the male wizards seem to be bare-chested as well.:)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-21-08, 08:15 PM	This will, presumably, be the end of a lot of the heroes of the past. Khelban is dead, Sylune is Dead Dead (she was already dead), and we know that Bruenor Battlehammer seems to be dead from Drizzt's monologue despite the fact that he should just be an elderly dwarf now. Drizzt's statements about the Spirit Soaring are that we'll probably also see the death of Caderly as well. That's assuming Drizzt was talking about the SS.:) He mentioned "the greatest cathedral in the world" or something to that effect, but didn't name it.
Charles Phipps 01-21-08, 08:23 PM	True, but I don't think that there's any other Cathedrals that Drizzt has seen that equal it. Or he'd bother commenting on.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-21-08, 08:24 PM	The bit about establishing rules for the protection of commoners from the wrath of nobles is a Big theme in Imperial Comyr since they mentioned it in Guide to the Realms, to be perfectly honest, I'm not really sure why that is since Cormyr has never really come off as a center of vast noble oppression. The nobles are :censored: yes but not causal exploiters of Ye Common ManTM. Good point. It's interesting that Floril's character is immediately introduced to us by saying he's not nearly as good as the original King of Cormyr or the man that came before him that we never met. It's an interesting take for what amounts to our first introduction to the "new" Forgotten Realms. That's a great point. I'm a bit disappointed it's another King *yawn* and not a Queen, though. Maybe Waterdeep will have a FEMALE Piergerion this time. That's another great point. Honestly, Imperial Cormyr isn't that much bigger as near as I can tell. When I first heard about it, I had assumed that it had annexed possibly the whole of the Dalelands or had finally conquered Sembia (which would have made it an Empire and ruined any chance for Zhentil Keep to oppose it). Yeah, I had thought the same thing. This is, in my opinion, a slightly larger Cormyr rather than an Empire. I think it could still be called an Empire, though. Those city-states used to be independent (or part of Sembia) after all.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-21-08, 08:26 PM	True, but I don't think that there's any other Cathedrals that Drizzt has seen that equal it. Or he'd bother commenting on. I agree, I think it's probably SS myself, but since the cathedral wasn't actually named, we should probably hold off on making assumptions about which one it is.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-21-08, 08:32 PM	[Tymanther is not too deeply decsribed here but there's some hints of what it is. Frankly, there's no indication about the Untherese themselves (thanks to R_F for pointing this out to me) when I initially assumed they'd be the slaves of the Dragonborn. You're welcome.;) One thing, the Dragonborn are said to be a "proud martial race" so it's possible they'll be LE types. It's possible. But they could also be good. *shrug* They were described as having a "harsh meritocracy", but I could see societies of many different alignments as having that. At this point, we just don't know. Personally, they're clearly trying to make us interested in the Dragonborn. I like the core dragonborn, myself. Interestingly enough, 4E dragonborn seem a bit different. FR dragonborn apparently hate dragons on their homeworld and would war with them. Core dragonborn were described as having, at one point, gladly served their distinct kin (the dragons). I shall be reviewing these as well, if people are still interested in my thoughts. I am.:)
Charles Phipps 01-21-08, 08:42 PM	First, I’d like to thank Charles for creating this more ‘comprehensive’ thread – I tried turning one of the others into an ‘over-thread’, but some people just like to create separate threads for every little thing. Also, his very neutral stance is commendable, and currently mirrors my own. I’m all over the place with my feelings on this, and each separate part of the new D&D should be examined within its own context, rather the just “throwing the baby out with the bathwater”. Furthermore, Exalted is one of the few settings I’m unfamiliar with, so it was nice to see your take on that as well. Exalted is pretty much White Wolf's setting of Martial Arts Fantasy. It's set in a Forgotten Realms-esque setting but it's publishers lack Hasbro looking over their shoulder (Or TSR for that matter) and thus display all the sex, violence, and decadence implied to be in the Forgotten Realms but more or less absent from the official canon's portrayal. One questionable aspect of things is that the heroes are all effectively Chosen of the Gods and ridiculously powerful compared to mere mortals. And thanks for your compliments. Dragons could always be of either alignment, despite what it said in the MM – I can point to dozens of examples in older lore, but I don’t want to fill this thread up. Changing the two core ones really isn’t much of a big deal, since they already existed, and we will be getting the other two back in a later supplement. Honestly, my biggest worry is the implications this has to change it from Role-Playing to Roll-Playing. White Wolf and even Call of Cthulhu before it showed that there's a substantial number of gamers to whom Dice Rolling is almost an option at the table. Really; Gold Dragons, Angels, and Non-Adventuring Gods exist as necessary FLAVOR issues. It's important enough that we have an unlimited variety of monsters to kill but beyond that, there's going to be a decided need for talking to the Sidhe Lords of Goodtopia for adventure hooks. No one ever used Dryads as murder fodder to my knowledge. Inhuman Civilizations – I think having too much of this creates a cartoonish world, not a high-fantasy one. Some of my favorite novel series have had NO non-humans (or practically none) – The Belgariad, The Foundation Trilogy, Dune (the aliens were all off-shoots of humanity), the Elric novels (the main race being the exception), Conan (with only a handful of ‘monster’ exceptions, but no races/kingdoms), FMA (with the human-created homunculi being the one exception), ect, ect… – You add too many non-human elements, and you wind-up with Pokémon, Dragontails, or the Cowboys of Moo Mesa. To be honest, I think that Dwarven Kingdoms are a nice place to visit but I haven't really seen much in the way of stories set there. Elves are close enough to human beings that I've seen adventuring campaigns based out of Elven lands but otherwise, I think that most people tend to prefer the exotic to be visited but rarely stayed in. Other Planar stuff -I’d prefer to call The Far Realms Xoriat; its simpler, and more original sounding. After all, why the hell would creatures from there name it The Far Realms? That doesn’t sound like something ‘Anti-deluvian Horrors’ would come up with. More focus on the City of Brass, and less on Sigil is not good, but I think Sigil will become the Astral Crossroads, where as the CoB is the one for the Elemental Tempest. Honestly, my biggest concern is that the Far Realms undermines the Abyss. The fact is that the Abyss is the home of the most mind-blowing, sanity blasting, unspeakable horrors that are capable of being imagined. The Elder Elemental Evil is the most nastinest nasty thing in the universe and no matter what Bruce Cordell says, I'm not going to buy there's anything in the universe in the Far Realms that holds a candle to the nastiness of the Abyss. Gods/Divine Stuff – Most of what we know will happen is now old news - They sprung it (sneakily) on us at the tail-end of 3e, in the GHotR. Anyway, I’ve already come down off of that emotional rollercoaster. I really HATE that they got rid of Intermediate gods – even in real mythology, there were always the heavy-hitters, the secondary gods, and the ones you barely even heard about. Demi-gods being saints is a good fit, and humans being able to ascend to this status also fits, and is a major throw-back to the OD&D days. So, while I’m hating the changes to FR’s gods, I like the Core Pantheon, and am willing to wait and see what sort of IG explanation they come up with for the divine re-shuffle. Wee Jas is becoming a Fate God? Does that mean we may see her down in Zakhara? Well, what's in the Core Pantheon of D&D doesn't really concern me too much. I don't play the Living Greyhawk and whatever is in the Core Pantheon isn't really going to affect my games that much. We didn't see Obad Hai, Saint Cuthbert, or any of the other gods showing up in the Realms in 3E and I don't really think we'll be seeing Bahamut replace Tyr or Corellon replace Mystra in the new Realms. I am concerned about the fact that Richard has indicated there won't be a "Manual of the Planes" or godlike write-up set for the new gods like before. Frankly, it's a Faerun tradition to have ridiculously lengthy books on the gods and I'll be disappointed if its broken. Fiends, Gods, and other things – Fiends will still fight Fiends, if they get in each other’s way. I’m sure that on some plane somewhere, all-out war has broken out between the Baatezu and the Tanarri; that doesn’t mean that EVERY Demon and EVERY Devil gets sucked into it. That’s also canon, BTW – there are hundreds of instances of both types of fiends completely ignoring the Bloodwar and its existence. Also, there is just as much, if not more, of Demons fighting Demons! I never ‘got’ that they would all fight together in some incomprehensibly vast army – they’re CHAOTIC, for Chrisakes! A friend of mine asked the same question and I answered him. "It's not so much that the Tana'ari are interested in fighting the Baatezu, per say, as they'll never miss an opportunity to Bust Heads and the Baatezu think the Demons are the only real threat to them." The Devils wanting ‘soul contracts’, and the new spin on all of this, is a bit too Judaeo-Christian for my liking, but it seems too fit, especially when we look at the Universe from an even grander scale. Still, on a purely mortal level, I don’t understand why evil doesn’t fight evil anymore – that’s a core concept in FR! In a more neutrally-aligned world, which is what it appears they are shooting for, then evil should get in the way of evil, and so should good oft-times get in the way of good. Real thinking creatures have their own agendas, and alignment has nothing to do with who they will crush if they get in their way. Well, Devils ARE pretty much explicitly the Milton's Paradise Lost creations now. Honestly, I've always been annoyed that we had Satan (Asmodeus) and the Fallen (Baalzebul plus whoever else) plus Hell yet we've never had a Divine Figure equivalent or Archangels in the Seven Heavens. I'm very much of a Fan of Gaiman style cosmologies. If you're going to use Pagan Mythology, incorporate Judeo-Christian, and vice-versa. But yes, I'd happily love to see Moradin and Corellon Lantheon :censored: *HATE* each other. The same with Dwarves and Elves where the two races should be just this side of loathing one another rather than the friends/allies that Baker says they'll be. It actually was always a major theme in my campaigns. Elves hate Dwarves, Dwarves hate Elves, both despise humans but humans are oddly the only race that can get them to work together against the Orcs. Very Tolkien. Gods and Primordials warring? That’s taken from nearly every single RW mythology out there, so that’s both ‘fantastical’ and ‘mundane’, because its all been done before. I can’t make any final calls with this either, but it can go either way, depending on how good the material they come up with is. The concept of ‘Elemental Evil’ is an old one, and it brings back some of that old-school flavor, so I can live with that. It depends how the Primordials are defined, to be honest. The only likely Primordial we've got in Forgotten Realms so far is Ghaundaur. However, I'm not sure it fits the theme of the deities that the Four Elemental Gods are now all going to made Primordials unless they are going to rapidly degenerate their relationships with the rest of Faerun's pantheon for some reason. Plus, how does this effect Elemental Themed Gods like Talos and company? Fluffy Cloud Heaven – I prefer this sort of ‘cushy’ afterlife myself. Not knowing where you are going to go sort of detracts from the entire purpose of religion. Even Hades had separate places, depending on the kind of life you lead. It has the potential of some major complications if the Cosmology is linked as well. Kelemevor and Shar are likely to be on the exact same Plane. Classes – can’t really comment on these until I see the new ones. Druids becoming even more WoW-ish… No Monk or Bard at the outset… I’m getting a feeling of dread, with some of this. I like that fighters now become interesting, and not some guy who only steps to the front and rolls dice when called upon. The loss of the Bard is a tragedy. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fd/ElanOOTS.gif Overall, I agree with a lot of your statements.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-21-08, 08:45 PM	Bards aren't gone though, just coming later.:)
Charles Phipps 01-21-08, 08:53 PM	Whenever I say gone, I mean from the main book.
Charles Phipps 01-21-08, 09:00 PM	-Nah...it should be fun, all those other heroes are gone now so my 12th level munchkin wont feel soo...overshadowed now!!! Phat lootz herz Iz comz!!! I always felt Star Wars WEG handled things best. A lot of people complained they suggested that heroes be Tramp Freighter Captains rather than awesome ass-kickers, but a lot of the players I've met have no interest in being "heroes" but just the equivalent of the crew of Firefly. -Yeah...it would match the other hole in the Shaar huh? Or did it just enlarge their ginormuos abode. Might bode well for the stout folk. They get an even bigger sandbox to play in!!! -Maybe...we could play up some race riots. Those are allways fun...NOT!!! Rodney King coming soon to the Realms near you. Bah, it's just Gold Dwarves and who likes them!? ;-) You know, a Sembian Rebel Alliance beng covertly controlled by the remnants of the Cult of the Dragon would be Camapign worthy - if they didn't already say they WILL NOT use evil against evil. Well ED will be writing some of this and we know that Stephen Schned is also a fan of evil vs. evil. Richard's preferences won't be absolute, I hope. Nevertheless, if the Cult of the Dragon was exterminated completely, I wouldn't be too unhappy since the Trilogy was one of the BIG triumphs for good. The Netherse rising in power really sucks. They, along with the Shadow weave, were amongst the BIGGEST complaints amongst FR fans. My comparison of Choice. Cobra Commander was the Zhents. The Netherese are Serpentor. I prefer Cobra Commander. The jerks!!! But their are some ginormous HOLES that I do like!!! The Ginormous Hole is OBVIOUSLY a major plot point!
Kenzuki 01-21-08, 09:47 PM	Bahamut will not replace Tyr in the Realms......Torm will.:D
18DELTA 01-21-08, 11:38 PM	The Angels issue is something I'm not sure I like. Granted, I understand (and kind of agree with) the new design principle not to worry about needless symmetry. But it doesn't seem right to me that Demons and Devils are still pretty much all evil, while there doesn't seem to be any race of beings that's all good. Like it or not, beings of pure goodness are a pretty common thing in fantasy (or at least as far as I've seen), just as much as beings of pure evil are. -Nah... they would probably overshadow my 26th level munchkin. Iz wantz ze phat loowtz!11!!11!!1:rofl: Sorry.;) LORD DELTA;)
Charles Phipps 01-21-08, 11:42 PM	Now, the joke is old :-) Bahamut will not replace Tyr in the Realms......Torm will. Torm is awesome but he better not replace Tyr. Of course, I'd love to see Red Knight move to become part of the group and she'd form the new Triad since Ilmater is gone.
18DELTA 01-21-08, 11:56 PM	Exalted is pretty much White Wolf's setting of Martial Arts Fantasy. It's set in a Forgotten Realms-esque setting but it's publishers lack Hasbro looking over their shoulder (Or TSR for that matter) and thus display all the sex, violence, and decadence implied to be in the Forgotten Realms but more or less absent from the official canon's portrayal. One questionable aspect of things is that the heroes are all effectively Chosen of the Gods and ridiculously powerful compared to mere mortals. -Where do I sign up?:D No one ever used Dryads as murder fodder to my knowledge. -They do now!!!:( Honestly, my biggest concern is that the Far Realms undermines the Abyss. The fact is that the Abyss is the home of the most mind-blowing, sanity blasting, unspeakable horrors that are capable of being imagined. The Elder Elemental Evil is the most nastinest nasty thing in the universe and no matter what Bruce Cordell says, I'm not going to buy there's anything in the universe in the Far Realms that holds a candle to the nastiness of the Abyss. -I totally agree, I could really careless about The Far Realms. Hey it has Realm in the title, so it needs to be in the Realms right?:rolleyes: I am concerned about the fact that Richard has indicated there won't be a "Manual of the Planes" or godlike write-up set for the new gods like before. Frankly, it's a Faerun tradition to have ridiculously lengthy books on the gods and I'll be disappointed if its broken. -That would blow monkey snot. I needz to know how to killz the Gods so i can take their Phat lewt1111:P A friend of mine asked the same question and I answered him. "It's not so much that the Tana'ari are interested in fighting the Baatezu, per say, as they'll never miss an opportunity to Bust Heads and the Baatezu think the Demons are the only real threat to them." -Like an old Misfits concert. Get in the MOSH PIT BERK!!!:cool: The loss of the Bard is a tragedy. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fd/ElanOOTS.gif Overall, I agree with a lot of your statements. -True.:( LORD DELTA:dragon:
GreenKnight 01-22-08, 12:00 AM	Torm is awesome but he better not replace Tyr. *whistles innocently* :hides:
18DELTA 01-22-08, 12:19 AM	*whistles innocently* :hides: -I...guess somebody dosen't know yet?:D Maybe you should tell him Knight.:) LORD DELTA:hides:
GreenKnight 01-22-08, 12:39 AM	-I...guess somebody dosen't know yet?:D Maybe you should tell him Knight.:) LORD DELTA:hides: Nah, you go ahead. And make sure to use lots of smilies. LOTS and LOTS of smilies. :D
Charles Phipps 01-22-08, 12:44 AM	I thought Torm was just replacing Helm.
18DELTA 01-22-08, 12:46 AM	Nah, you go ahead. And make sure to use lots of smilies. LOTS and LOTS of smilies. :D -Damn why do all the crappy jobs fall on me. You owe me GK!!!(Shakes Fist);) :P :D -I even took the liberty of looking it up so here goes nothing.;) :P :D -Mr. Phipps could you please sit down?;) :P :D -Quote from Richard Baker (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14458644&postcount=1246) This is a really interesting suggestion, and a well-reasoned argument. So interesting and so well-reasoned, in fact, that I took the liberty of forwarding it to the other designers working on FR 4e. We had a brief huddle this morning, and I think we're going to implement it: Torm in, Tyr out. More details than that I can't reveal yet, but it actually helps "spackle in" a couple of pantheon events we were working on anyway. Thanks for the excellent suggestion, Green Knight! Quote: Originally Posted by GreenKnight I don't know about anyone else, Rich, but after this whole debacle with Helm and Tyr, I'd just like to see Tyr gone and have Torm replace him and become the new God of Justice. Yeah, he was a servant in life and a servant as a god, but I think it's time for Torm to step up to the big leagues. Let him pass on the Portfolios of Duty, Loyalty, and Obedience to another servitor deity (Possibly Nobanion or even Bahamut. Or better yet, create a new god who was once a mortal follower of Torm, a Paladin, who discovered the location of Chalsembyr, and who was rewarded by being elevated to Demigod status) while he claims the Portfolios of Justice, Guardians, Protection, Protectors, and Paladins. I think there're numerous good reasons to do so: 1) Tyr killing Helm has left a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouths. Maybe I've got a limited imagination , but I imagine that the number of Realms players who like that plotline don't even reach into the double digits, percentage wise. It's probably a stretch to say that 2-3% of Realms fans like that story. Point is, Tyr's now inextricably linked to a story which has left a bad taste in the mouths of a lot of Realms fans, and his continued presence will only serve as a constant reminder of that story. So what's the value of keeping him around? He doesn't bring anything to the Realms, but instead detracts from it. Hell, he did so even before that whole debacle, as I'll illustrate below. 2) Tyr's an interloper deity, while Torm's a native. There're other interloper deities in the Realms, but Tyr's far more stand out then the rest. For some people, he starts conjuring up images of Thor, Loki, and Odin, and frankly, I don't want to think about Thor when I'm playing in the Realms. Bad enough that the story of Fenris was altered so that Kezef the Chaos Hound filled that role. I think it's time for Tyr to pack up and go home. 3) With Helm's death, his worshippers have to go somewhere. So where will they go? They certainly won't go to Tyr. Hell, Tyr may end up losing worshippers, too, once people hear about the whole sordid story with Tymora and Helm. Torm, on the other hand, is the natural choice for Helm's former worshippers to flock to. Especially with Torm and Helm having actively directed their churches to foster good relations with each other. With Helm's death, that's where those good relations would pay off, as Torm's church is likely to end up absorbing a good deal of Helm's worshippers. With that kind of influx of worshippers, that'd easily push Torm up to Intermediate status at a minimum. 4) Torm's star has been on the rise for years, now. Ever since the Time of Troubles, we've been told in supplement after supplement how popular his church is becoming. How many more worshippers he's gaining. Torm's church seemed to be rivalling Helm's church, and Helm is/was an Intermediate God. That's a god who should be promoted, not demoted. His fairly meteoric rise in popularity can only have been helped along by the return of Bane. It was Torm, after all, who killed Bane during the Time of Troubles. With Bane returned, and Faerunians fearful about what that entails, more and more people are praying to Torm for deliverance from Bane. Faerunians are looking to Torm for salvation, and has been pointed out before, the beliefs of worshippers can change a deity. With so many people praying to Torm to defend them from Bane, Torm's role in the Faerunian Pantheon would start shifting, and he'd soon enough cease to be simply about duty and loyalty. Especially if he were to pick up Helm's Portfolio of Protection. 5) Torm's story is a powerful one. It's the kind of story that real religions are built around. He sacrificed himself to save his worshippers. He died and was resurrected. It literally doesn't get better then that. So why have a god as vibrant and interesting as Torm as a mere servitor, when the god who he serves is dull and lacklustre by comparison? Personally, I think you folks are missing a golden opportunity, here. You've got a fantastic confluence of events which can and should lead up to Torm stepping up and becoming a Greater God, taking his place as Bane's arch-nemesis. The ying to his yang and all that. It'd make for a great dynamic in the Faerunian Pantheon, and it'd be a whole lot more personal then setting up Tyr or Silvanus against Bane. The two of them literally fought each other to death, after all. Not to mention that in a lot of respects, Bane is a dark mirror of Torm. It'd be nice if they were on an equal playing field, again. Then we can just sit back and watch the conflict percolate. That's my personal wish, anyway. But at the very least, Torm should be a Lesser God (In 4E terms, I mean). Putting him down as a Demigod is a contradiction to established background, in which he does have worshippers, and churches, and clerics, and even whole knightly orders devoted to him. And all of that background has said that his faith is only growing, not shrinking. And the influx of former Helm worshippers could only make it grow, not shrink. So there's no way that Torm should ever be listed as a Demipower in the 4E Realms. __________________ Rich Baker Senior Designer Roleplaying R&D Wizards of the Coast, Inc. LORD DELTA;) :P :D
GreenKnight 01-22-08, 12:49 AM	-Damn why do all the crappy jobs fall on me. You owe me GK!!!(Shakes Fist);) :P :D You're Dirty Delta. So named because you always get the :):):):) end of the stick. :D But alright, I owe you. :P
18DELTA 01-22-08, 12:55 AM	Read (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14447733&postcount=1217) these (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14452426&postcount=1232) four (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14453745&postcount=1235) posts. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14458644&postcount=1246) You're Dirty Delta. So named because you always get the :):):):) end of the stick. :D But alright, I owe you. :P -Nah...dont worry about it.;) :P :D I just hope he doesn't do anything drastic to his self tonight.;) :P :D DIRTY DELTA:rofl:
Charles Phipps 01-22-08, 12:56 AM	.... GreenKnight, I'm placing a hex on you. Cause, I utterly disagree with all of that! Doh!
18DELTA 01-22-08, 12:59 AM	.... GreenKnight, I'm placing a hex on you. Cause, I utterly disagree with all of that! Doh! -Well, he is starting to do some DRASTIC things!!!;) :P :D Verily it Sucketh to be you Knight.;) :P :D (Kidding;) :P :D ) DIRTY DELTA:w00t: :plotting: :evillaugh :dancin: :cheer: :bounce: :heehee :smirk:
GreenKnight 01-22-08, 01:01 AM	.... GreenKnight, I'm placing a hex on you. Cause, I utterly disagree with all of that! Doh! One poster on Candlekeep stopped just short of declaring a fatwa on me, so I guess I can live with a hex in comparison. ;)
18DELTA 01-22-08, 01:08 AM	One poster on Candlekeep stopped just short of declaring a fatwa on me, so I guess I can live with a hex in comparison. ;) -Well I hope they dont try and blow up your castle!:eek: :incog: :shifty: :incog: DIRTY DELTA, I LOVE IT!!!;) :P :D
Charles Phipps 01-22-08, 01:12 AM	Still, you changed a portion of the Realms. Good for you.
18DELTA 01-22-08, 01:15 AM	Still, you changed a portion of the Realms. Good for you. -I see he is starting to come out of The Blood Haze!!!;) :P :D LORD DIRTY DELTA;) :P :D :rofl:
Charles Phipps 01-22-08, 01:30 AM	I know it's just....HE'S TYR MAN! He's like :censored: Optimus Prime! Torm is Luke Skywalker! Yo...You killed Obi Wan! :)
GreenKnight 01-22-08, 01:44 AM	I know it's just....HE'S TYR MAN! He's like :censored: Optimus Prime! Tyr Optimus Prime? Nah. Tyr's always seemed more like Alpha Trion or Sentinel Prime to me, with Torm being Optimus Prime (Think about it. Optimus Prime died fighting Megatron, killing him in the process. Torm died fighting Bane, killing him in the process. I could practically hear "The Touch" playing in the background as I was reading that fight. On top of which, Optimus Prime came back to life, and so did Torm). Torm is Luke Skywalker! Yo...You killed Obi Wan! :) :P DIRTY DELTA, I LOVE IT!!! And that's what you'll be known as from now on. Dirty Delta!
Charles Phipps 01-22-08, 01:58 AM	No No. Torm is Hot Rod. SEE WHAT YOU'VE DONE!? You've given Hot Rod the Matrix! I hope you're proud of yourself. ;-) (I'd love to see people's reactions to Richard's answer)
MarkusTay63 01-22-08, 01:59 AM	Oghma and Loviatar are in hiding now, because of GreenKnight. They heard it's 'open season' on Interlopers these days. :(
GreenKnight 01-22-08, 02:03 AM	Comparing Torm to Hot Rod, now? Thems FIGHTIN' WORDS, Charles! Put up your dukes! :monk: Oghma and Loviatar are in hiding now, because of GreenKnight. They heard it's 'open season' on Interlopers these days. Nowhere to run, baby, nowhere to hide Got nowhere to run to, baby, nowhere to hide It's not love I'm running from It's the heartbreak I know will come Cause I know you're no good for me But you've become a part of me Everywhere I go, your face I see Every step I take you take with me
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 04:57 AM	One poster on Candlekeep stopped just short of declaring a fatwa on me, so I guess I can live with a hex in comparison. ;) -That's harsh, man.
Kieran_Immerdusk 01-22-08, 11:36 AM	How do you figure that? While they're not "Core" deities, the fact remains that there's no "Core Setting" except in the vaguest sense. Furthermore, Chauntea isn't going anywhere in Forgotten Realms. If they don't detail Chauntea, she may still "be around", but new players won't pay much attention to her, as they'd probably assume that just farmers worship her, if they even think of her at all.
XHereticX 01-22-08, 07:51 PM	So that's who was behind Torm's sudden promotion... Whatever, dosen't make a difference to me anyway. So what's gonna happen to Tyr? I like the new thing with angels being able to fill any alignment, but I dunno if it will work with the Realms. Haven't the evil gods always depended on demons and devils as divine servants?
Charles Phipps 01-22-08, 07:59 PM	So that's who was behind Torm's sudden promotion... Whatever, dosen't make a difference to me anyway. So what's gonna happen to Tyr? I like the new thing with angels being able to fill any alignment, but I dunno if it will work with the Realms. Haven't the evil gods always depended on demons and devils as divine servants? I use the Christian Trinity with Tyr the Father/Torm the Son/Ilmater the Holy Spirit as a vague analogue (They have the "Hammer of Tyr" as their symbol that's blatantly a stylized cross). This will be problematic in our games. It works in my games because I had Xvim as an impersonator of an Angelic form. However, there's mention that the Gods of Evil often bully/bribe and/or coerce Demons and Devils into their service in the books. So, that's not really a problem in my opinion. We can just assume that there's celestial servants of every god. I admit, I find it difficult to imagine an angel serving Cyric or Mask however. Frankly, there's some gods the Judeo-Christian view doens't work with. With Tyr, you can just have Valkyries as a type of Angel but....still....Shar with Angels?
XHereticX 01-22-08, 08:04 PM	I use the Christian Trinity with Tyr the Father/Torm the Son/Ilmater the Holy Spirit as a vague analogue (They have the "Hammer of Tyr" as their symbol that's blatantly a stylized cross). This will be problematic in our games. It works in my games because I had Xvim as an impersonator of an Angelic form. However, there's mention that the Gods of Evil often bully/bribe and/or coerce Demons and Devils into their service in the books. So, that's not really a problem in my opinion. We can just assume that there's celestial servants of every god. I admit, I find it difficult to imagine an angel serving Cyric or Mask however. Frankly, there's some gods the Judeo-Christian view doens't work with. With Tyr, you can just have Valkyries as a type of Angel but....still....Shar with Angels? Hey, if Atropus the elder evil can have angels, why not Shar?:P
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-22-08, 08:14 PM	Having read what was written on Angels in W&M, I'm kind of "meh" about them. Sorry, but I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around the idea that angels are more like constructs than living beings. :-/ I'm not sure what to think at this point.
XHereticX 01-22-08, 08:24 PM	Having read what was written on Angels in W&M, I'm kind of "meh" about them. Sorry, but I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around the idea that angels are more like constructs than living beings. :-/ I'm not sure what to think at this point. Angels have always been nothing more than tools for the gods, except now they're extended to evil deities too. Now the uncertain fates of Archons and Guardinals, that's what POs me.
Charles Phipps 01-22-08, 08:27 PM	Having read what was written on Angels in W&M, I'm kind of "meh" about them. Sorry, but I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around the idea that angels are more like constructs than living beings. :-/ I'm not sure what to think at this point. Eh, I think they're going with the long running fanon idea that Angels are the embodiments of the Portfolios of existing Gods just like the New Paladins are the Ultimate Servants of the ideals of Gods for good and evil. Admittedly, my game table is still realing from the Tyr thing. Fuji: Clearly, I have a new mission! BRING BACK TYR! Lisa: Uhhhh... Fuji: Hail Holy Hammer Lord and his Horde of Valkyries! Lisa: While the Valkyries thing makes sense, I'm utterly perplexed why you worship Tyr.... Fuji: HELLO! He's a Blind God...and has one arm! He's like the Ultimate Samurai!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-23-08, 10:08 AM	Angels have always been nothing more than tools for the gods, except now they're extended to evil deities too. I think angels can be "tools of the gods" and still be interesting characters, though. Now the uncertain fates of Archons and Guardinals, that's what POs me. It ticks me off too. I have questions about this issue that I will bring up with Rich once he comes back.
18DELTA 01-23-08, 10:19 AM	It ticks me off too. I have questions about this issue that I will bring up with Rich once he comes back. -In one of the podcasts awhile back the designers(I think it was)Mearls and Wyatt were talking about putting a bullet in the "Guardinals" HEAD!:mad: DELTA:mad:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-23-08, 11:29 AM	-In one of the podcasts awhile back the designers(I think it was)Mearls and Wyatt were talking about putting a bullet in the "Guardinals" HEAD!:mad: Such great imagery there. :-/
18DELTA 01-23-08, 02:10 PM	Such great imagery there. :-/ -Right.:rolleyes: DELTA:raincloud
MarkusTay63 01-23-08, 02:46 PM	No more 'Doggy' Angels? :(
Lord Karsus 01-24-08, 12:42 AM	No more 'Doggy' Angels? :( -My DM has a fetish for Hound Archons. I never got it. :confused:
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-24-08, 12:52 AM	The at in MM 3.5 remminds me of Wesley Snipes in "blade" ( i think is the pose)
MarkusTay63 01-24-08, 03:15 AM	You mean this guy - http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/Hound_Archon.png Here boy... c'mon boy... yeahhhh... WHO'S a GOOD Doggie? Yeah, that's a good doggie... yes you are, yes you are... :P
Alediran 01-24-08, 06:23 AM	Hound Archoons rock, the first time I saw one it blew my mind. It was an original concept, an angel with dog shape.
Charles Phipps 01-25-08, 02:55 PM	Honestly, I'm mostly concerned right now with rumors. I've got a fun story to share that more or less boils down to the fact that in Star Wars, there's ALWAYS the "OMG they're going to Luke!" rumor everytime that something new comes out in Star Wars EU. Because it's the most panic inducing rumor possible (the other is "OMG, they're going to kill Han!"---curiously, Leia never gets it) At this point, I've heard oodles and oodles of rumors about what's going to happen with the gods and other parties in The Forgotten Realms. However, I refuse to ever panic about something until I have confirmation about it. This has saved me ridiculous amounts of grief over the years as fans in various forums have thrown hissy fits about God Knows How Much before there's anything really to complain about. Also, I'm well aware of an unfortunate tendency of developers in everything from comics to video games to fiction of just :censored: with fans by stating vague things that turn out to be misleading or false. I'm not saying that the 4E developers are but Joss Whedon loved lying to his fans to their face ("Tara will not die! Wash is immortal" etc). Rumors are what annoys me most about fandom, that and people who take their Hobby Way Too Seriously. http://www.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SeriousBusiness The Forgotten Realms is Serious Business! But yes, I'm personally interested in a great number of rumors and seeing how they choose to play out (if at all) in the lands of Abber-Toril. Here's some prominent rumors that I'm going to throw my opinions at.... * The Removal of Racial Pantheons This idea being that to continue the "Realms Deitycide" that certain gods and goddesses with overlapping Portfolios are actually faces of different deities. This, no doubt, fits the Designers view that there should be nothing wrong with a Dwarf worshiping Corellon Lantheon. BTW, the idea went over like a ton of bricks at my table. *** From the Worst RPGing group ever Phillip: If I see a Dwarf worshiping the Elf God, I club him over the head and take him to a cleric for Cure Insanity. Chris: If my gnome worships Corellon, do I get Elf Girls? Cause, Garl Glittergold kinda sucks...what with being a gnome and all. *** At this point, I'm not sure how to fully react to it because in some cases this is actually already been implemented in my table. You know the huge rivalry between Hanelli and Sune over Half-Elves? The joke is that in my games, Hanelli is actually Sune and vice versa. I just made it a point that she keeps it a secret from even her own followers who could never stomach an Elf Goddess that allowed herself to be worshiped by humans (or vice versa---Sune has been with humanity almost as long as elfdom) Likewise, at my table I toyed with the idea of Talos as the God of Monsters. He certainly fit the idea of what most people had of a rampaging force of destruction that goes down, slaughters everything, and plunders the women plus the children for slaves. Honestly, Garagos is dead at my table because Talos fit better the role of Berserker God. FYI, Torm slew Garagos in a confrontation over Tethyr. Ultimately, the idea proved unpopular with players for Talos as the God of Orcs. Instead, I was only able to implement the idea that Talos and Bane were worshipped by a LOT of Orcs. However, while Orcs kept their pantheon, I noticed that most players didn't care if I had the majority of the Giant race worship Talos and Auril. In the end, my conclusion was that most of the lesser humanoid deities were obscure enough that some replacement could occur. But Gruumsh? Not a chance. Ditto Moradin, there's no way you could reasonably combine him with Gond despite them both being Artificers. Tyr? Maybe, but he's already on his way out and the idea of Silverbeard as Torm is just too laughable for words. Some deities are undeveloped enough for this to work but most of the ones in the player character's handbook are TOO well developed just to be ditched. For example, Mask is also the God Vhaeraun in my campaign (clearly not the case in canon). Likewise, bizarrely, I always hated that Ishtar was Isis in the Forgotten Realms. The character of Isis and Ishtar as presented in Fantasy just seemed far too removed from one another for me to handle (and Inanna/Ishtar is an aspect of Sune in my games). Ultimately, I'm going to have to wait and see about how this is. I really can't imagine Sehaine Moonbow working at a bar in Waterdeep or being the Creator of the Forgotten Realms (at my table, it's also implied that Shar and she were lovers as well as the mother of Chauntaea---because gods can get around gender....which really would again make no sense with Sehaine). Ironically, despite the similiarity, this may prove one of the least popular choices they make. * The Smackdown of the Chosen Khelben was dead to begin with. Pretty much, that says everything that needed to be said with me. There were two Chosen, maybe three with Alustriel, that absolutely couldn't be killed in order to maintain any reasonable sense of the Realms. The other Chosen's name rhymes with Elemenstor. http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2005/20051107h.jpg Khelben was the straight man to Elminster. He was the guy who took being a God-Like Wizard seriously and was everything people assumed Elminster to be (the secret master of a million+ plots and counterplots). He was the terminally serious wizard that guarded the Realms by becoming it's self-appointed guardian. ...And he died resurrecting some magical Shangra-La. :rolleyes: So, honestly, the worst has already happened in my view. I also doubt they'd actually give the Blackstaff to Khelben's established successor in Danillo. Elminster is fine really and Sylune is also dead, which means nothing because she was already dead. Ironically, I got plenty of fun out of Sylune's oddly physical and affectionate ghost but it sort of cheapened any real sense of sacrifice from her. Bob Salvatore was also implying Cadderly might have also met his end in the past century. To be fair, that's not something I have a problem with. Bob created the Chosen of Deneir and can choose when or where he can die. That's what I term to be "writer's priviledge." Plus, Cadderly's story was finished as of the end of his book series despite the unofficial sequel in Servant of the Shard's later half. It occurs to me there is a 4th Chosen that I feel is absolutely necessary to the Realms. Fzoul Chembyrl. For me, he's another pretty much "iconic" example of the Realms that needs to be preserved. Fzoul and Manshoon are the Magneto and Doctor Doom of the Realms. It's like removing the Joker from Batman. It tastes "different" without the classics. It's why I could never get into 5th Age Dragonlance. They fixed almost all of the worst elements of the 5th Age but there was still a Takhasis and Paladine shaped hole in Krynn. Seriously, it's not Dragonlance without Bahamut and Tiamat. Call them whatever you like, that's who they were in my games. For me, almost every other Chosen is expendable.
Lord Karsus 01-25-08, 03:07 PM	I've got a fun story to share that more or less boils down to the fact that in Star Wars, there's ALWAYS the "OMG they're going to Luke!" rumor everytime that something new comes out in Star Wars EU. -It's about time that ****sucker died. I can't stand Luke. Have Jacen Solo but the old bastard out of his misery. The Forgotten Realms is Serious Business! -It is serious business. Khelben was dead to begin with. -Khelben wasn't killed in the '4e Transition'. ...And he died resurrecting some magical Shangra-La. :rolleyes: -What's unbelievable about fufilling one's ultimate appointed duty. His name literally means, "One who duty, honor and magic define". It occurs to me there is a 4th Chosen that I feel is absolutely necessary to the Realms. Fzoul Chembyrl. For me, he's another pretty much "iconic" example of the Realms that needs to be preserved. Fzoul and Manshoon are the Magneto and Doctor Doom of the Realms. It's like removing the Joker from Batman. -I think Fzoul's fate depends upon the fate of the Zhents in 4e. The Zhents are doing good, subjugating people, Bane is pleased, and Fzoul in rewarded. However, if they aren't doing good, Bane is unpleased methinks, and Fzoul gets it.
Charles Phipps 01-25-08, 03:21 PM	-It's about time that ****sucker died. I can't stand Luke. Have Jacen Solo but the old bastard out of his misery. Personally, Luke should live forever, he's like Superman. An icon of Modern Mythology. -It is serious business. I just recognize my Hobby is under my control at my table while whatever they say at 4E isn't really important. -Khelben wasn't killed in the '4e Transition'. Yes, hence "Khelben was dead to begin with." Which means the most important Chosen they could kill is already dead, so there's no real thing they could do in the 4E transition to the remaining Chosen that would matter to me. -What's unbelievable about fufilling one's ultimate appointed duty. His name literally means, "One who duty, honor and magic define". I guess it boils down to the fact that destroying the Sharn and resurrecting the city will, even if it lasts 10,000 years, never do as much good or as achieve as much as Khelben would alive. Furthermore, in a strictly pragmatic point, I will never use the Magical City and all the Wizards I've played would view it as another failure of concept (Magic should be spread amongst the masses and earned not kept in elite priesthoods) while Khelben was a constant in my games. Understand I'm reviewing this not from an emotional point of view but from storytelling value. -I think Fzoul's fate depends upon the fate of the Zhents in 4e. The Zhents are doing good, subjugating people, Bane is pleased, and Fzoul in rewarded. However, if they aren't doing good, Bane is unpleased methinks, and Fzoul gets it. Honestly, I prefer Fzoul to Bane. I never liked Xvim the Despot (also known as Invader Zim, "Oh my god, you killed Zimmy!", and Zimminy Do Dah) but the fact was that he worked great with Fzoul because he was the Big Dog. The Zhents are the iconic Realms baddies and the Netherese are a crashing bore to me by comparison. They're Cobra, Spectre, and Hydra all rolled into one. Frankly, the Netherese can float in their city all they want. So long as the Zhents are fine then I'll be happy. Bluntly, the Shar worshipers will never be half the threat or half the villains Fzoul and Manshoon were.
Lord Karsus 01-25-08, 03:38 PM	Personally, Luke should live forever, he's like Superman. An icon of Modern Mythology. -Luke is a Human, and eventually Humans die. He's sixty something currently. The other alternative I'd like would be him stepping down as Grand Master of the Jedi Council, and handing the role over to Kyp Durron, being as that Kyp is the most overall rounded Jedi next to Luke. Personally, though, there would be nothing sweeter than Darth Caedus handing him his ass, and demonstrating how he ran the Jedi Order to the ground. I guess it boils down to the fact that destroying the Sharn and resurrecting the city will, even if it lasts 10,000 years, never do as much good or as achieve as much as Khelben would alive. -The Sharn were not destroyed. There are still various Sharn out there, as not all Sharn were Fhaor'Quessir. As for the second point, of course it will, simply by virtue of utlilitarianism. What's greater? Khelben doing 1 millions points of goodness by himself, or 10,000 individuals doing 150 points of goodness combined? Furthermore, in a strictly pragmatic point, I will never use the Magical City and all the Wizards I've played would view it as another failure of concept (Magic should be spread amongst the masses and earned not kept in elite priesthoods) while Khelben was a constant in my games. Understand I'm reviewing this not from an emotional point of view but from storytelling value. -That doesn't negate the idea that Khelben can't exist in your, or anyone's campaign. You think Khelben, being who he is, wasn't prepared to die at any given moment? The role of Khelben can be filled by clones, journals, simulcrums (Sp?), and so on. Bluntly, the Shar worshipers will never be half the threat or half the villains Fzoul and Manshoon were. -Apples and oranges. Truthfully, they are two different types of heinious groups. The Banites are the totolitarian dictators, and the Sharrans are the evil Illuminati. Choose your poison.
GreenKnight 01-25-08, 03:44 PM	It occurs to me there is a 4th Chosen that I feel is absolutely necessary to the Realms. Fzoul Chembyrl. For me, he's another pretty much "iconic" example of the Realms that needs to be preserved. Fzoul and Manshoon are the Magneto and Doctor Doom of the Realms. It's like removing the Joker from Batman. From THIS (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14616109&postcount=1794) link. Q: Speaking of which, will Fzoul be in the 4E Realms, or is he gone? A: Fzoul remains, but in something of a new role; can't say more than that for now.
Charles Phipps 01-25-08, 03:57 PM	-Luke is a Human, and eventually Humans die. He's sixty something currently. The other alternative I'd like would be him stepping down as Grand Master of the Jedi Council, and handing the role over to Kyp Durron, being as that Kyp is the most overall rounded Jedi next to Luke. Personally, though, there would be nothing sweeter than Darth Caedus handing him his ass, and demonstrating how he ran the Jedi Order to the ground. Isn't Kyp just five years younger than Luke? What would be accomplished by handing it over to a guy whose not that much younger than him. Luke is sixty three while Kyp in his late fifites at this point. As for Darth Caedus, I like the fact that they've shown some people don't have the stomach for the Dark Side and it just leads these individuals to gibbering insanity. -The Sharn were not destroyed. There are still various Sharn out there, as not all Sharn were Fhaor'Quessir. As for the second point, of course it will, simply by virtue of utlilitarianism. What's greater? Khelben doing 1 millions points of goodness by himself, or 10,000 individuals doing 150 points of goodness combined? Overall, I stand by my point I think that whatever good this city does in the Realms or not, the fact is that Khelben would do more good than all of them combined. Like Elminster and Myth Drannor, except Myth Drannor is much more important than this city ever will be. -That doesn't negate the idea that Khelben can't exist in your, or anyone's campaign. You think Khelben, being who he is, wasn't prepared to die at any given moment? The role of Khelben can be filled by clones, journals, simulcrums (Sp?), and so on. Steven had a woman with Khelben's Memories impersonating him. that's really sad if you think about it. I accept that they killed the Blackstaff but it's pretty much like killing Batman in the DCU universe. Only, unlike in DC, it actually takes. -Apples and oranges. Truthfully, they are two different types of heinious groups. The Banites are the totolitarian dictators, and the Sharrans are the evil Illuminati. Choose your poison. Oddly, I didn't bother adding "Illuminati" to the Zhents role. Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only guy who doesn't see them as the manipulators and secret masters of the Realms. Well, there's the Knights of the Shield but the Zhents are the richest organization in Faerun with their hands in every pie. And thanks Green Knight, I really need to start reading that thread or asking the developers some of my own questions.
Lord Karsus 01-25-08, 04:10 PM	Isn't Kyp just five years younger than Luke? What would be accomplished by handing it over to a guy whose not that much younger than him. Luke is sixty three while Kyp in his late fifites at this point. -Kyp is the only Jedi I can think of who has the experience, know how, and talent that is needed to suceed Luke. He's a couple more than just 5 years younger, if I recall correctly. He was around 16 when Han rescued him, so... As for Darth Caedus, I like the fact that they've shown some people don't have the stomach for the Dark Side and it just leads these individuals to gibbering insanity. -This is why I like the character so much, and why I dislike Luke so much. I never used to dislike him so much, and I never used to like Jacen so much, but the ultimate reasoning behind both of their actions, and their biases, and such caused me to reexamine both characters. Overall, I stand by my point I think that whatever good this city does in the Realms or not, the fact is that Khelben would do more good than all of them combined. -Like I said, utilitarianism shoots that down. Of course, that's all projected, made up numbers and everything. Steven had a woman with Khelben's Memories impersonating him. that's really sad if you think about it. I accept that they killed the Blackstaff but it's pretty much like killing Batman in the DCU universe. -Yes, Tsarra, one of his apprentices, is currently using the guise of The Blackstaff. After all, she did inherit many of his memories, and in a way, became Khelben for periods of time. How long the masquerade will go, especially when the Lords of Waterdeep begin sniffing around, however, is unknown. -But, that still doesn't preclude clones, simulcrums, and whatever else, as Tsarra and Khelben merging was very much an accident, a surprise, and something that he did not necessarily prepare in advance for. Oddly, I didn't bother adding "Illuminati" to the Zhents role. Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only guy who doesn't see them as the manipulators and secret masters of the Realms. Well, there's the Knights of the Shield but the Zhents are the richest organization in Faerun with their hands in every pie. -Back when Manshoon ran things, and there was the Fzoul/Sememmon/Manshoon rival, the Zhents were much more of a group of evil, intrigue ridden merchants. Since Fzoul has gained control, however, I believe they have very much branched into more 'open' tactics, and away from the 'hidden' things.
Charles Phipps 01-25-08, 04:21 PM	I stand corrected on Luke's age, it's more like ten years. -This is why I like the character so much, and why I dislike Luke so much. I never used to dislike him so much, and I never used to like Jacen so much, but the ultimate reasoning behind both of their actions, and their biases, and such caused me to reexamine both characters. For me, I just like Luke. Be good, not because of any Republic or religious creed but because you are good and follow those because of it rather than letting them lead you. The perfect Paladin character, just a swell guy who kicks ass. -Like I said, utilitarianism shoots that down. Of course, that's all projected, made up numbers and everything. I know, but the fact remains I can't imagine 150 Wizards doing as much good as Khelben. That's just my personal bias. It's the difference between a 1000 well intentioned Blue Beattles versus One Superman. -Yes, Tsarra, one of his apprentices, is currently using the guise of The Blackstaff. After all, she did inherit many of his memories, and in a way, became Khelben for periods of time. How long the masquerade will go, especially when the Lords of Waterdeep begin sniffing around, however, is unknown. Yes, I think its a silly plot. -But, that still doesn't preclude clones, simulcrums, and whatever else, as Tsarra and Khelben merging was very much an accident, a surprise, and something that he did not necessarily prepare in advance for. Because I can, I'll just be sticking with the real Khel. -Back when Manshoon ran things, and there was the Fzoul/Sememmon/Manshoon rival, the Zhents were much more of a group of evil, intrigue ridden merchants. Since Fzoul has gained control, however, I believe they have very much branched into more 'open' tactics, and away from the 'hidden' things. Huh, I just sorta thought that they continued both ways.
MaskedOne 01-25-08, 04:40 PM	I prefer Luke breathing and relatively stable in part for the same reasons as Charles. I'm not particularly picky on whether he remains in control of the Order. Jacen/Craedus just needs to be shot for overwhelming stupidity. I find it more than a little pathetic that he took an innocent life in large part to try and avoid a potential future where he killed Luke and is now wholeheartedly pursuing an agenda that makes Luke a lethal adversary. Khelben, eh, he can still interfere if he has to and the City of Hope provides a nice concentration of strength that can be used in a variety of helpful ways that is unless the designers decide to kill it in their quest to employ strategic ordinance against powerful forces of good.
Lord Karsus 01-25-08, 04:53 PM	I know, but the fact remains I can't imagine 150 Wizards doing as much good as Khelben. That's just my personal bias. It's the difference between a 1000 well intentioned Blue Beattles versus One Superman. -Blue Beatle. He's the one that was murdered? I don't follow DC, except for whatever articles are in Wizard. Huh, I just sorta thought that they continued both ways. -Since Fzoul took over, I think that the Zhents have been more...'heavy handed' in their tactics. The blatent military take over of Hillsfar and Shadowdale, for example. Jacen/Craedus just needs to be shot for overwhelming stupidity. I find it more than a little pathetic that he took an innocent life in large part to try and avoid a potential future where he killed Luke and is now wholeheartedly pursuing an agenda that makes Luke a lethal adversary. -Jacen did everything he could to prevent such a future, but Luke's own actions ruined it.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-25-08, 08:26 PM	Overall, I stand by my point I think that whatever good this city does in the Realms or not, the fact is that Khelben would do more good than all of them combined. Like Elminster and Myth Drannor, except Myth Drannor is much more important than this city ever will be. Who's to say? There's plenty the City of Hope can offer to the Realms. It's actually much older than Myth Drannor, and many of its former inhabitants are alive again. And don't forget that Khelben's own teacher, Mentor, has returned.:)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-25-08, 08:31 PM	-Yes, Tsarra, one of his apprentices, is currently using the guise of The Blackstaff. After all, she did inherit many of his memories, and in a way, became Khelben for periods of time. How long the masquerade will go, especially when the Lords of Waterdeep begin sniffing around, however, is unknown. Much to my surprise, Steven Schend gave his own answer on Candlekeep: He said Tsarra continued her "charade" for about two decades before her cover was blown. He also added that there were more "Blackstaffs" after Tsarra. Bear in mind though that Ed is the only author whose personal musings are considered "canon", so SS's answer, while intriguing, isn't official until it's published by WotC.
XHereticX 01-25-08, 08:49 PM	I agree, Manshoon and Fzoul MUST stay, and even though I like the idea of a New Netheril ruled by Sharran Shades, they will never replace the Red Wizards of Thay in my heart:( . Also yes, a setting like Dragonlance grows quite redundant when the two gods that it was based off of are whacked and it loses it's whole post-apocolyptic feeling (though the War of Souls trilogy made me cry at the end, something no other WoTC book has ever done). I hope the Seven Sisters are still around as well, Faerun just dosen't feel...complete without them. Also, in the Orc King it hints that they are getting rid of Mulhorand????:confused: I certainly hope not, at least have one old empire remain, you've already allowed Unther to get raped by dragonborn.
GreenKnight 01-25-08, 09:10 PM	Who's to say? There's plenty the City of Hope can offer to the Realms. It's actually much older than Myth Drannor, and many of its former inhabitants are alive again. And don't forget that Khelben's own teacher, Mentor, has returned.:) Sooo... ...did Khelben ride around cross-country in an RV with this Mentor guy?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-25-08, 09:23 PM	Sooo... ...did Khelben ride around cross-country in an RV with this Mentor guy? No...but they did have a touching reunion scene.:)
GreenKnight 01-25-08, 09:24 PM	Was their reunion in an RV? :D
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-25-08, 09:28 PM	Was their reunion in an RV? :D Guess.;)
GreenKnight 01-25-08, 09:33 PM	Guess.;) Probably not. But it'd make me happier if it was in an RV, so I'll continue to believe that it happened there. :D
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-25-08, 09:34 PM	Probably not. But it'd make me happier if it was in an RV, so I'll continue to believe that it happened there. :D And that's perfectly legitimate--in your Realms, it happened in an RV.:)
Charles Phipps 01-25-08, 11:01 PM	Part of the reason that I'm not so concerned about some of the changes may also be explained in some of the radical deviations from canon that I've made in my thread over here regarding the Gods. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=14923588#post14923588
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 08:49 AM	Much to my surprise, Steven Schend gave his own answer on Candlekeep: He said Tsarra continued her "charade" for about two decades before her cover was blown. He also added that there were more "Blackstaffs" after Tsarra. Bear in mind though that Ed is the only author whose personal musings are considered "canon", so SS's answer, while intriguing, isn't official until it's published by WotC. -Oh, very interesting. -And, it's always good to have a mentor named Mentor.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-26-08, 08:07 PM	-Oh, very interesting. -And, it's always good to have a mentor named Mentor. Indeed. :rofl:
Charles Phipps 01-30-08, 04:27 PM	WHOO HOO! New Article! http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080130a Magic in the Realms Magical power and fantastic features abound in the Forgotten Realms. Arcane secrets whisper to those with the ears to hear in the eons-long movement of the continents, in rushing river rapids, in every inhalation of beasts great and small, and in the sighing cries of the wind. Raw magic is the wild stuff of creation itself, the mute and mindless will of being, suffusing every bit of matter and coursing within every manifestation of energy throughout the world. Okay, this is just flowering prose here and nothing really to comment on. Overall, I like the Hyborean Age preteniousness (but in a good way!) that Bruce is going for. Frankly, it's something that gives me some hope for the future since the Realms is nothing if not epic fantasy bordering on melodrama (but in a good way!) Overall, I get the impression from this article that the developers are actively refining the ideas they had rather than having a complete idea before the implementation. It's sort of like Realms fans read the first Draft of Steven King's Dark Tower series and suddenly lots of things are changing as we approach publication. This has ups and downs. (WHY TYR!?! WHYYYYY!) Wizards, warlocks, clerics, sorcerers, bards, paladins, and even rogues, fighters, rangers, and other adventurers call upon personally derived threads of magic to cast mighty spells, enforce pacts with enigmatic entities, heal injury, ward against evil, or accomplish physical feats that transcend purely mortal means. This is just your fairly typical description of the game's basic ideas. For me, I never quite grocked to the idea that Paladin and Clerical miracles were the same as Weave magic. Frankly, I could never quite make that work to be honest because too many people used Cleric/Paladin Magic as "White Magic" like it was Final Fantasy. Finally, I just said that the gods channeled the Weave energy through themselves like canon said they did. Dangerous monsters, too, call up frightful magic to accomplish their deceitful ends. Aberrations spawned by ancient magic seethe below the earth and above it, hungry for flesh and knowledge alike, waiting for the chance to feed. Dragons whose blood runs with magic wield abilities so potent that gods and primordials alike fear to face the most ancient of these mighty beings. Undead fuel their mind and protect their corpses from dissolution by powerful necromantic rituals, especially liches, whose never-ending acquisition of arcane knowledge has propelled more than a few into contention with divine designs. Bruce is still reiterating for the "newbies" at this point, or perhaps re-assuring radical fans that Dragons and Undead will still exist. I have my misgivings about 4E, if you wanted to "shake up the Realms" then killing Mystra or Helm would have been a sufficient 'event' to generate the controversy that everyone was angry about. [Author's Note: And that's what this is about. Controversy. It's like when they killed Supergirl in Crisis on Infinite Earths, Captain America in Civil War, and Superman in....well the Death of Superman or broke Batman's back. It gets the fans ANGRY but it also gets them interested. Both generate sales even if fans often suggest they won't buy----a lot of them still do because they're CURIOUS. Chaosium's biggest problem was the fact that they were just constantly repackaging the rules, that and they never paid their authors] Indeed, magic is so bountiful in Abeir-Toril that even the land bristles with fantastic landscapes. Great motes of free-hanging earth balance on nothing but air, amazing all those who chance upon these mighty demonstrations of nature’s glory. Again, this is just another re-iteration of the fact that we're in a [u]High[u] Fantasy game. I apprenciate this since I was worried "Points of Light" would remove some of the tremendously magical nature of the Forgotten Realms in the vain effort to become less fantastical and more "real." D&D should always reflect this physical set of laws. http://www.rpgworldcomic.com/comics/20001201.gif If fact, the Realms are so awash with magic that the world proved particularly vulnerable to a plague that fed on magic itself. You know, honestly, I half think that I shall do a write-up of the Spell Plague as a Monster. It would make a great deal of sense. "Insane Greater Magic Elemental." The Year of Blue Fire “Learn ye well the lesson of the pebble that begets a landslide. Likewise a single betrayal unleashed the Spellplague, whose consequences yet dance and stagger across Toril, and beyond.” --Elminster of Shadowdale, 1479 DR, Year of the Ageless One YAY! El speaks! I'm sorry, I'm just happy he still lives in Shadowdale. An appalling magical event called the Spellplague afflicted (and still afflicts) the world in 1385 DR. Despite its name, the Spellplague was much more than a disease. For one, it did not restrict itself to mere flesh. All things were meat to the Spellplague’s insatiable hunger—flesh, stone, magic, space, and perhaps even the flow of time was suborned. The world of Toril, its lost sibling Abeir, and even the planes themselves were infected with a plague of change. This basically changes my view a lot, in that I initially thought the Spell Plague was going to be just a madness effecting Wizards and THEY would wreck the world. Instead, it seems to be more akin to "Chaos Effects" generated by the Rod of Seven Parts unleashed upon the world. I suppose that's justifiable since magic can do ANYTHING and it's hitting the world in the face with raw incarnations of it. I'm more interested in the idea of "Toril's lost sibling Abeir." Was it a moon or perhaps Toril had a sister world? Is it a Parallel World of Torils? (Which doesn't make much sense since Abber-Toril already has a Parallel World----it's called Earth. You know, the place the Mulhorandi and Tyr are from?) Most suppose the Spellplague was the direct result of the goddess of magic’s murder at the hands of the god Cyric. Some whisper that Mystra’s death was achieved through the machinations of the goddess Shar, with Cyric her unwitting stooge. It's interesting that this isn't confirmed but I don't think this is setting up any genuine mystery since it's all but confirmed in other sources that the act of murdering Mystra is responsible for Le Spell Plague, which is French for The Spell Plague. Nevertheless, it would be interesting if it turned out to have an unrelated cause like MING THE MERCILESS. But it is interesting that they intend to focus on Cyric more yet call him "her unwitting stooge." Yes, GREAT way to reinforce that Cyric is the ultimate evil there, Bruce. This theory holds that the world’s magic was held so long in Mystra’s Weave that when the Weave lost its weaver, magic spontaneously and ruinously burst its bonds. Areas of wild magic, already outside the constraints of the Weave, touched off first when their boundaries misted suddenly away. But eventually, few parts of Toril and the planes beyond were unaffected. We should be probably grateful that the Developers for tying this storyline into existing lore about the Time of Troubles, especially due to their similiarities in aftermath. The plague raged on and on in ever-widening spirals, leaving some places completely untouched (such as many northern lands of Faerūn, including Cormyr and the Swordcoast), and radically altering others (such as Muhorand, Unther, and points south). The plague passed into the realms of demons, gods, and lost souls—dividing some realms, joining others, and generally seeding chaos. Okay, this IS good news, as it implies there's an in-story justification for the Changes to Fourth Edition. This drastically reduces a great number of my concerns and problems for the Forgotten Realms because when we moved from the Great Wheel to the Great Tree, they completely LIED to us that it would be introduced in-story and instead utterly ignored Vecna's ritual for shattering the Planes. So, THANK YOU, Bruce.. Curiously, the Sword Coast and Cormyr are going to be "Completely Unaffected" which strikes me as Odd. I think this is just meant to convey "relatively unaffected" since we know Waterdeep is hit by gigantic Stone Statues going amuck. Near-mythical realms that had passed beyond easy reach were pulled back, such as the Feywild (called Faerie in ancient days). The home of demons fell through the cosmology, unleashing swarming evil before the Abyss found its new home beneath the Elemental Chaos. Some nice acknowledgment here that the Feywild (Fairie) aka the home of the Elves was once very far away. The sudden movement of the Abyss to the middle of the Elemental Planes is going to be seriously IRKING some creatures off, though. However, its' actually a semi-decent justification for why the Blood War has tapered off. Now, the Demons have elementals to fight. So, Kudos, an excellent answer to how to end a trillion year old conflict between Law and Chaos. Even the long forgotten world of Toril burned in the plague of spells, despite having been unreachable and cut off from Faerūn for tens of millennia. Portions of Abeir’s landscape were transposed with areas of Toril in the disaster. Such landscapes included their living populations, and thus places such as Akanūl and Tymanther lie as if new-birthed on Faerūn’s face. Across the Trackless Sea, and entire continent of the lost realm reappeared (called Returned Abeir) subsuming the continent of Maztica. One thing I will say, I occasionally do it myself, but does anyone in the Realms REALLY call it "Forgotten Toril" or "The Forgotten Realms?" I mean, I've always wondered if the people of Faerun had some self-hatred going on. Like the people of Lodoss. "I'm from the Accursed Isle." But yes, apparently, there's a sort of Crisis of Infinite Earths thing going on here with it entirely likely that Unther hasn't been enslaved by the Dragonborn. It's entirely possible it's been outright EXCISED with only a portion of the original country still existing. But let's take a moment to note somethings... * Maztica is no longer located on Planet-Toril. Abeir has replaced it. While I'm somewhat grateful for the act, I'm not exactly sure why that we chose to get rid of Maztica of all places even if it was a setting that was never meant to be part of the Realms. * What does this mean for Kara-Tur? Kara-Tur is a lot more tied to the Realms than Maztica, which still had a full scale invasion going on from the Helmites and Waterdeep. I suppose the Spell Plague sort of precludes any real economic repercussions. Is it getting ditched? How about Zhakara? (Not that it ever made much sense in the Realms anyway with Calisham). But I guess my guys will have to stick to Chult when they want to go fight some evil Forgotten Ruins cultists. * Why replace Maztica at all? There's an entire undocumented (at least to my knowledge) North America Analogue and Africa too. Hell, why not make Abeir the Forgotten Realm's Australia? I'm not angry about or anything this but the guy in charge seems, honestly, a lot like Joe Quesada here. It's like he's ripping out all the pieces of the Realm's history that he doesn't like instead of working with what dozens of authors have created before. I mean, Mystra dying is one thing, but moving a continent? I felt like the dumbest man in the world when I briefly suggested Eberron's continents were on the other side of the Toril map (before my group said that was idiotic). Now, not so much. Still, I confess that I'm not unhappy with the idea that the Developers are trying to make the Realms more fantasy-like than an Earth analogue (but I don't I don't have a problem with the setting having Earth elements if its justified in the settings history like it is!*. I just remember Krynn's continent of Taladas. Really, there's nothing remotely "Krynnish" about it and unless Abeir is filled with the gods we know and love or elements related to Faerun... It's really not going to be someone that affects most people. It almost certainly assures there's going to be a Abeir: The Forgotten Continent supplement though. (Though if turns out that Abeir is just a new version of Maztica---I'll be amused) FYI-Rich, don't take it hard. I'm just surprised. The Spellplague was a potent direct agent of change, but it also set off a string of secondary catastrophes. Ooooo. Effects on the Weave For eons, the use of magic in Faerūn was focused through a god of magic, most recently Mystra. Except for certain Netherese wizards of ancient days who learned the truth, most believed that no magic would be possible without such a deity. However, with the death of Mystra and jealous Shar suppressing the ascension of a new deity of magic, it became common knowledge that magic is accessible without a god to control and codify it. Now when a spellcaster speaks of the Weave, she is just using another term for magic. Okay, a couple of point by points. 1. Nice acknowledgement of Lord Karsus and the "Raw Magic" access. 2. Mystra is still dead after a hundred years. That's no surprise but we're just being clear here. 3. Shar is somehow keeping Mystra from reincarnating. 4. Shockingly, no one has managed to take the portfolio of magic at this time. 5. Rich has stuck with the idea that Magic will be divorced from the Gods. Which is kinda sad since I liked the Gods of Magic on Krynn and Mystra a great deal. Effects on the Shadow Weave Just as Mystra controlled the Weave, the goddess Shar controlled the Shadow Weave. Not satisfied with her portion, Shar plotted to seize control of both. She miscalculated. When Cyric murdered Mystra, the Weave collapsed so completely that Shar not only failed to gather up the fraying threads, she also lost control over the Shadow Weave. Ha Ha! Sucker! Sorry, it's utterly ridiculous for me to be happy about a mechanics change :censored: over a fictional character but I just like the image that Shar has lost control over her own creation at this time. Also, one presumes she's lost some serious momentum thanks to the fact she has to keep Mystra down with her power. Just as magic persists without Mystra, so does the dusky power of shadow endure without Shar acting as an intermediary. Powerful necromancers have developed their own unique methods for accessing the dim energies of the Shadowfell. This I like, maybe it's even possible the Netherese don't all worship the Dark Lady. I'd like to see some non-evil Netherese possibilities. I do confess, though, that the Shadow Weave and Weave still come off as way too much like the Dark Side of the Force and the Light. That may have been too much of the influence of Shar and Mystra in opposition to one another plus the fact that the Shadow Weave seemed to corrupt people's sanity in so many books/Neverwinter nights. Effect on Spellcasters Many creatures that learned to cast spells and channel magic with Mystra’s Weave found themselves powerless in the Spellplague’s wake. Some never regained their power. Others worked to attune themselves to the new magical environment. Many required years to regain this facility, while others never regained the knack. Others took shortcuts to reacquire the power they’d lost, swearing questionable pacts to enigmatic beings in return for the ability to utilize arcane powers. Seems very much like the 5th Age of Dragonlance books, right down to Palin and company trying to figure out the nature of Primal Sorcery. To be honest, I wasn't terribly fond of that plot because the Jedi errr....Towers of High Sorcery tradition was actually important. Today, spellcasters access magic through a dizzying array of methods. Some murmur spells and incant rituals, some forge arcane bargains, and others pray for intervention. In truth, it seems that magic can be accessed in more ways than ever before, fueled by newfound knowledge of arcane, shadow, primal, and other sources of power. Seems about right. Though forging arcane bargains seems a bit off when NO god has power over magic now. Effect on Items Most magic items that permanently store magic, such as magic swords, cloaks, and boots, survived the Spellplague and continue to operate normally. Permanent access to magic was "installed" in these devices when they were created, so even though the Weave was used in their making, the Weave no longer played any part in their continuing operation. That said, some items that temporarily stored “charges” of magic, such as wands and staffs created prior to the Spellplague, no longer work. If such items do work, they no longer work in the same way. Another point by point. 1. Ancient Magical Items will survive the Spellpocalypse. 2. There's going to be no confusion about that, thankfully but it also is another thing very similiar to the Fifth Age of Dragonlance that I wasn't fond of (be grateful we don't have 60th Level Dragons!) 3. Wands and Staffs will be changed from the way they were in the new system. Poor Raistlin. [The secret of making magic items in a post-Weave world was relearned decades ago. Magic items are as plentiful as ever, as desperately sought by doughty adventurers, and as mysterious as they ever were. More implications that there's no happy endings for any of the heroes of the "Old Faerun." The Spellpocalypse seems to have only been recovered from in the past thirty years, which means that all of the magicians likely got the shaft. Effects on the Landscape Where magic was completely loosed, the Spellplague ate through stone and earth as readily as bone and spell. Broad portions of Faerūn’s surface collapsed into the Underdark, partially draining the Sea of Fallen Stars into the Glimmer Sea far below (and leaving behind a continent-sized pit called the Underchasm). The event splintered several of the Old Empires south of the drained sea into a wildscape of towering mesas, bottomless ravines, and cloud-scraping spires (further erasing evidence of the lands and kingdoms once situated there). Historical lands most changed by the Spellplague include Mulhorand, Unther, Chondath, and portions of Aglarond, the Sea of Fallen Stars, and the Shaar. What was once called Halruaa detonated and was destroyed when every inscribed and prepared spell in the nation went off simultaneously. This explosion was partly to blame for destroying the land bridge between Chult and the Shining South—only a scattered archipelago remains.[/quoite] Eeeesh. Where the :censored: do I even begin? Well, we've got a much clearer view of what happened to these lands at this point and it's really salting the Earth here. 1. I'm not sure what the Underchasm is supposed to be or what the effect on the Sea of Fallen Stars is. I need a visual map key here, is the Sea gone? Is there more than one gigantic pit in the Realms? Do we really NEED more than one? It's like Beattlejuice 2: Beattlejuice goes Hawaiian. Didn't we say all we needed to say in the first film? Must we go tropical? - Kevin Smith. 2. The "erasing the evidence of the lands and kingdoms once there" implies that the Immaski Empire, Mulhorandi, and Chondath are going to be probably utterly annihilated if they aren't transported fully to another world. The Developers are clearly on the belief of removing all traces of Earth and that's just a crying shame because it's one of the fun facts about Faerun that it's connected to RL. 3. Haruula......well, from what's said here, Elaine Cunningham's characters had best be on vacation. Omen is likely the only surviving Haruulan wizard alive. Sweet TYR! 4. Really, after that, that people have to take boats to Chult is a small issue. [quote=Bruce Cordell]Tendrils of the Change Plague reached many other corners of Faerūn, sometimes directly across the landscape, othertimes bypassing great swathes of land by infecting both sides of the many two-way portals that once dotted the world. That's just an "in house" justification. Pockets of active Spellplague still exist today, most famously in the Changing Land. Referred to as plaguelands, each one is strange and dangerous. No two possess the exact same landscape or features, save for the fact that entering could lead one to be infected by the Spellplague. Luckily, remnant plaguelands possess only a fraction of the vigor demonstrated in the Spellplague’s initial appearance. These lingering Spellplague pockets are secreted away in hard-to-reach locales, often surrounded by twisted no-man’s land. Most of Faerūn and Returned Abeir are entirely free of such pockets, though the plaguechanged and spellscarred may appear in any land. More or less, they're Wild Magic Zones. For me, I don't mind that "Life cannot exist without the Weave" has been de-emphasized. It turns the Weave into the Force. Effects on Creatures When the initial wave of Spellplague infected a creature, object, or spell, the target usually dissolved into so much glowing, dissipating ash. However, sometimes living creatures survived the plague's touch but were altered, twisted, or fused to another creature or even a portion of the landscape. The initial Change Plague wave had no regard for boundaries or species, or the ability of a changed entity to survive with its new form, powers, and limitations. The most unlucky of these mewling, hideously changed survivors perished within a few days. More Wild Magic effects, also possibly a reason to do Abberations but Bruce Cordell was very clear that the Far Realm was the responsible party for Abberations and not just magic gone ookey. Luckily, the initial wave directly touched relatively few parts of Toril and Abeir. Moreover, not all creatures, objects, or spells touched by the original Spellplague were doomed, but to have survived meant having to accept change. Living creatures so affected are differentiated into two broad groups: plaguechanged and spellscarred. Dude, I don't think after the above changes, that the people of Faerun would not prefer the Black Death. That just killed half of Europe. This wiped out Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Northern Africa, the whole of South America, and drained the Medaterranian. Plaguechanged A massive change in body and mind marks a creature that has survived contact with the original wave of the Spellplague during the Year of Blue Fire. Such survivors are called the Plaguechanged. Extreme alterations forge potent monstrosities in even the meekest flesh. Plaguechanged creatures are monsters, driven slightly insane by the viciousness of their metamorphosis. Few of this generation survive today, because the initial plague was so virulent, and the changes wrought were so extreme. What’s more, many decades have passed since the Spellplague’s end, so most plaguechanged creatures simply died in the interim. A few of the horrifying monstrosities remain, though, hidden away in various corners of the world. Oddly, they don't seem like they're that impressive to be honest. It's really just an excuse for a bunch of Mournland style monsters I think and unique creatures with no origins. Frankly, Faerun had plenty of reasons for these as well. Why not just let Talos curse people? Spellscarred Spellscars are a phenomena of the present, gained when someone moves too close to a plagueland (where active Spellplague yet lingers), though sometimes spellscars afflict people who’ve never had any contact with rampant magic. Some individuals—heroes and villains alike—can gain spellscars and learn to master the powers inherent in them. Player characters can gain spellscars and learn to master the powers inherent in them. Psionics or Dragonmarks? What do you guys think? On rare occasions, a spellscar appears as a physical abnormality, but more often it is an intangible mark that only appears when its owner calls upon it. When this happens, a spellscar might appear as jagged cracks of blue fire racing out across a spellscarred’s forearms hands, a corona of blue flame igniting the creature’s hair, a flaming blue glyph on the creature’s forehead, or perhaps even wings of cobalt flame. In many instances, an individual's sudden manifestation of blue fire is a reliable indicator of a spellscar. Dragonmarks. Magic in the Year of The Ageless One The ancient wonder of old magic yet lingers among the ruins of thousand-year-old empires, in crumbling towers of mad wizards, and in buried vaults of elder races. The modern marvels of living wizards, sorcerers, warlocks, clerics, druids, and other spellcasters stride the land as purposefully as they ever did, altering the world in small or large ways with each spell they cast. Indeed, without the divine restrictions of previous ages, magic is more abundant than ever, manifesting not only as inexplicable changes to the landscape, items, and creatures, but even in some of the most fantastic exploits of fighters, rouges, rangers, and other heroes. Magic truly does permeate all things. For all the changes wrought by the Mystra’s death, magic remains the lifeblood of Toril. With all due respect, Bruce, how can the ancient wonder of old magic exist in the ruins of thousand year old empires when you've established that they've all been physically transposed to other dimensions or literally crushed under cataclysmic cosmic diasters? Hell, the largest of the ancient Empire is now alive and well (Netheril). You can't tell the whole of the issue from the description here but really, some of the choices here are a bit overwhelming even for me. Also, I think what really surprises me is "wouldn't people be lynching wizards left and right?" In Dragonlance, the Cataclysm caused people to hate magicians more than ever (though they were never terribly popular to begin). This seems to be the case where Faerun's long love affair with magic to come to an end. Mystra's faith would probably be hunted to extinction and hated world over if they ever discovered she was responsible for the Spell Plague. Just my two coppers.
Reneshat 01-30-08, 04:54 PM	For me, I never quite grocked to the idea that Paladin and Clerical miracles were the same as Weave magic. Extra points for using a variating of grock. On one hand, I would guess the world that the Dragonborn come from is Abeir, so it's the same world as half of the rest of the world now. Other than that, right now I'm just in too much shock to really know what I think. I apologize to anyone that I said the changes don't seem that drastic to, or told to just wait and see what happens, it might not be that bad. I just, I just am at a loss for words at the moment. I'm torn between shell shock and some inexplicable curiosity to see what they have done. I am disgusted with the fact they changed so much, but I just have to see what they have done. I can't really explain it. Oh yeah, Forgotten Realms Dragonmarks is an idea that suck donkey :censored: !
Charles Phipps 01-30-08, 05:11 PM	I kind of hope that Abeir is actually the Shadowfell or, certainly part of it, as it would help tie in the idea's that were kicked around for so long that there was an entire planet that existed on the other side of the darkness. It would also tie nicely into Bruce Cordell's fondness for the concept from way back in Birthright. But, hopefully, there's some story there. Let's throw some general bits out here to stare at what's been changed that we can tell from this article. 1. Unther has been largely moved to another dimension: I say largely since there's implications of stuff leftover from the God Kings, that implies that at least some of the existing land used to exist. It's also possible that earlier information has been invalidated by the Developers changing their mind. Thus, the Dragonborn might have a few thousand year old culture there. 2. I'm going to guess Mulhorandi has gone the way of Carthage: In their desire to remove all of the obviously Earth elements (correct me if I'm wrong Richard), they've seemingly either transposed it with another unheard of domain or it's been destroyed in the resulting cataclysm. 3. Haruula is wiped clean off the face of the Earth like Istar during the Cataclysm: This one is fairly clear that there's pretty much no chance of rebuilding this land. What I'm concerned about is....well, what does that leave for adventurers? No, seriously, Bruce. I'm not too problematic with the slaughter of the Haruulans, they were dimwits anyway, it's the question of what takes the place of their country. You have to replace what you destroy. 4. Maztica is replaced by another continent: Honestly, I think I would have preferred the Vecna Retcon here. "Maztica never actually existed in Abber-Toril" would probably be less of a problem for me than the idea a whole continent has been exchanged. 5. The Shaar is now a bunch of waterfall kingdoms: I'm not even sure what that's about from the art. Does anyone have a copy of that Waterfall Picture there that was the concept art for it? The Shaar was a bunch of Savannahs before with Wemics. I've played there and didn't enjoy it, but what's so cool about waterfalls? 6. Dragonmarks: No objections there. 7. Chondath is toast: I'm not sure what will be the changes here but the Sea of Fallen Stars disappearing is likely to make it land-locked along its coast and that's going to have a severe effect to say the least. Frankly, I'm not sure why they got rid of Chondath. I thought people liked the Italians. 8. There's a Big...Big..Cave: I'm not sure what another big cave is contributing. Is this meant to be a kind of Hollow Earth? If so....isn't that what the Underdark is about? Unless there's a sun down there, it seems like you're just enlarging the Hollow Earth. 9. Shar loses the Shadow weave: Well...good. But with no gods over the Weave, what's the point of the Shadow Weave? Isn't it just a theme of regular Weave magic? 10. Something happened to Agarlarond: We don't know what but it seems it's largely unaffected. 11. No gods of Magic at all: Okay, not Corellon stepping up to the bat there or Wee Jass. 12. More Wild Magic Monsters: No problems there. Okay...that about cover the changes?
Charles Phipps 01-30-08, 05:38 PM	[Dividing posts for Length] Overall, I'm going to give the following positive and negative comments. 1. Natural Disasters and Geography Changes are not fun: While changing Thay into mountainous Transylvania is fine by me, there's nothing really fun to adventure against the forces of nature. When describing the Grand Canyon, you describe it as a big hole rather than the majestic sight that it is. Ergo, it all has to have some POINT to it. 2. I dislike the heavy handedness of physically transposing kingdoms over one another: Let's invoke the credo that none of this is realistic anyway and ignore the whole "Tetonic plate shifting, end of the world" scenario for ripping a continent out and then placing a new one that's probably a different size and shape in its place. Frankly, was it really necessary? Did it tell a good story? Faerun isn't the DC Universe and doesn't have a history of alternate realities and shifting dimensions the same way that the Multiverse had. If one wanted to get rid of Maztica, couldn't one actually have CHANGED the continent over the past one hundred years? I actually didn't mind the Dragonborn until recently because Faerun has a tradition of extra-dimensional INVADERS. Also, Mulhorand and Unther were important parts of people's campaigns retroactively. Even if you totally bull-dozed the Pyramids and built up a Medieval Kingdom in their place, I would have minded less than the idea that they've been sent to a new world. Because, frankly, this seems to be an endemic problem with the Developers. Do you know what happens when a titanic supernatural disaster occurs in game? Players try and fix it That's why no sooner had I introduced my watered-down version of the Spell Plague than they already began plotting how to resurrect Mystra. Only when I raised Red Knight up to Intermediate Goddess did they start treating him as Dead Dead. Do you know what they'd do if they found out Mulhorandi and Unther were replaced? They'd try and find a way to restore them. I'm not complaining, but I was curious if Richard thinks that players will see this as anything but unnatural and to be reversed. Furthermore, players SHOULD be able to reverse it because that's what heroes do. 3. I like the Abberations and Dragon Marks This may surprise people but they seem like perfectly reasonable and interesting side effects of bombarding the whole of Abber-Toril with magical energy. I actually think it's a fun little image of the X-men occurring as the Spell-Plaguers are hunted by the peasantry that fears and understands them. Yes, MANSHOONETO! 4. What's replacing the Old Empires? You can't have an ancient history in the Forgotten Realms if you've removed the ancient Empires then burned the ashes completely to the ground. This isn't a complaint but a simple observation that even if you dumped 14,000 year old Atlantis into the Realms....it's new to the people of the Realms not "rediscovered." I'm skeptical unless Abeir and the othe new lands are the greatest things since sliced bread. 5. I'm impressed by the handling of the Re-Organization of the Planes: I think that the Spell Plague re-arranging things and reality is a nice fix and doesn't compromise the intergrity of the Great Wheel or Great Rift like the original. Also, the Abyss being so utterly transformed gives a nice conclusion to the Blood War (I hope that we'll also see Asmodeus transformed into a Deity in the Realms as well-----did he perhaps murder Helm?) 6. The Weave being "free" and Shadow weave being "free" works for me: I like the idea of magic not being controlled by the gods and the Shadow Weave not being dominated by Shar works for me. I would, however, like PATRONS of magic. Corellon, Azuth, Talos, Kelemvor, and other gods patronizing it without an overarcing God controlling it works for me. Overall, I'm not fond of a lot of the changes here, I'm afraid. 5/10 There, I hope my review was comprehensive.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-30-08, 05:54 PM	Again, this is just another re-iteration of the fact that we're in a High Fantasy game. I apprenciate this since I was worried "Points of Light" would remove some of the tremendously magical nature of the Forgotten Realms in the vain effort to become less fantastical and more "real." Well, you own Worlds and Monsters--remember how it was mentioned that the D&D world would be more fantastic? I can see that design principle being applied here (heck, the preview even mentioned floating objects like this). If anything there is a conscious effort to move away from realism. However, while D&D isn't going to be "low on magic", 4E is also eschewing the idea of "magitech" (ie. elevators powered by magic), which makes me wonder how and if that will effect Eberron...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-30-08, 06:08 PM	4. Really, after that, that people have to take boats to Chult is a small issue. Not for the settlements on and around the land between Chult and greater Faerun...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-30-08, 06:12 PM	Psionics or Dragonmarks? What do you guys think? You mean "spellscars"? I'm holding my tongue, because I don't feel like being excoriated by Eberron loremasters.;)
Charles Phipps 01-30-08, 06:14 PM	Not for the settlements on and around the land between Chult and greater Faerun... At this point, I'm sure their only problem is whether or not they were Faithless or False.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-30-08, 06:20 PM	I 7. Chondath is toast: I'm not sure what will be the changes here but the Sea of Fallen Stars disappearing is likely to make it land-locked along its coast and that's going to have a severe effect to say the least. Frankly, I'm not sure why they got rid of Chondath. I thought people liked the Italians. I liked Chondath. And the Shaar. :-/ 8. There's a Big...Big..Cave: I'm not sure what another big cave is contributing. Is this meant to be a kind of Hollow Earth? If so....isn't that what the Underdark is about? Unless there's a sun down there, it seems like you're just enlarging the Hollow Earth. Maybe it has to do with the 4E concept of making the Underdark easier to access?
Charles Phipps 01-30-08, 06:28 PM	1. I never really knew anything about Chondath, to be honest. Was that the place with the girl you absolutely hated? I forget the name of that novel series but, oddly, to show how bad publicity worked. I was interested in reading it to find out why she was so annoying. 2. Is the Underdark that defined as "hard to get to"? I always assumed there some places where it was actually very easy to get to. Cause, there's a door to the Underdark underneath the Old Skull Inn.
GreenKnight 01-30-08, 06:33 PM	I think this bit is is an error on Bruce Cordell's part. Even the long forgotten world of Toril burned in the plague of spells, despite having been unreachable and cut off from Faerūn for tens of millennia. Portions of Abeir’s landscape were transposed with areas of Toril in the disaster. It makes more sense if it reads like this. Even the long forgotten world of Abeir burned in the plague of spells, despite having been unreachable and cut off from Faerūn for tens of millennia. Portions of Abeir’s landscape were transposed with areas of Toril in the disaster.
Red_Wizard 01-30-08, 06:59 PM	Pssssst. "Halruaa". ;) :P -RW
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-30-08, 07:38 PM	1. I never really knew anything about Chondath, to be honest. Was that the place with the girl you absolutely hated? I forget the name of that novel series but, oddly, to show how bad publicity worked. I was interested in reading it to find out why she was so annoying. LOL! That's the Watercourse trilogy, which takes place in Innarlith on the Lake of Steam (which, considering the location, probably didn't make out too well either). There was actually a trilogy that took place in Chondath, though--The Scions of Arrabar trilogy, which I really liked. I also enjoyed the House of Serpents trilogy, which took place in the yuan-ti ruled area of Hlondeth (which is not far at all from Chondath), Sesepch (which is apparently gone), and Chult (which is apparently now an island...). 2. Is the Underdark that defined as "hard to get to"? Apparently the 4E designers think so...or, think that there is a perception that it's hard to get to--their main point in W&M was that the interesting parts of the Underdark are harder to reach, and not suitable for players who aren't of high levels. The bits in the preview about the Underdark mentioned how getting to the Underdark would involve long treks through mostly boring tunnels, super-dangerous creatures, and complete darkness. Now, I'm not saying that those things are in themselves "good" or "bad", my point is that the designers want to make the Underdark more accessible and a place where even lower level characters can have an interesting adventure. And, I'm getting the impression that some of the land-resculpting going on in the 4E Realms map has to do with fitting the Realms into that mold (and other molds, as well).
Sullivan 01-30-08, 11:41 PM	WHOO HOO! New Article! I read the article and I come back to just dismissing 4E Realms out of hand. The game mechanics may be all well and good, but the setting is just post-apocalyptic, which is not what I want in my Realms games. So, fie to all of it I say. If and when I game in the Realms, it will be using a home brewed update to the setting to make it a 4E compatible extension of the 3E setting. I wonder how many others are going to be doing that.
Lord Karsus 01-31-08, 12:02 AM	On one hand, I would guess the world that the Dragonborn come from is Abeir, so it's the same world as half of the rest of the world now. -Abeir is a world filled with Abberations, so I seriously doubt that they come from there*. * I officially give up constantly bringing up the fact that the planet has always been Abeir-Toril, and that Abeir didn't just suddenly disapear or anything, as the designers have heavy-handedly changed that.
Reneshat 01-31-08, 01:11 AM	-Abeir is a world filled with Abberations, so I seriously doubt that they come from there*. * I officially give up constantly bringing up the fact that the planet has always been Abeir-Toril, and that Abeir didn't just suddenly disapear or anything, as the designers have heavy-handedly changed that. Ahh, here you are, using the canon novels as if that has anything to do with their actual argument. When that was brought up to Rich Baker, he said that that wasn't what was going on with the rejoining of Abeir and Toril. Since most of the planet has been replaced with bits of Abeir, my guess is it's not really Abberation land, or else we have Faerun, and a world run by beholders, aboleths, illithids, etc....
Lord Karsus 01-31-08, 01:20 AM	Ahh, here you are, using the canon novels as if that has anything to do with their actual argument. -Good point. It's like trying to buy a falafel with rupies on 8th avenue.
18DELTA 01-31-08, 01:41 AM	-I wonder what JohnKretzer, and msa think about this? :rant: -Msa's posts should be priceless.:eek: -Dragonmarks in the Realms.:rolleyes: -WTF!!!:rolleyes: 18DELTA:rolleyes:
MarkusTay63 01-31-08, 02:21 AM	So, do you all bow down to me now, since I was nearly 100% on the money? :P (except for the 'un-sundering', but the article DID mention time changing as well) Chult becoming an island... I distinctly recall mentioning that at least twice... once to Rich Baker himself. I can't say I'm suprised at any of this, but I am suprised at my own reaction to it - its almost akin to... satisfaction. Its kind of wierd to be simultaneously sad and elated. My feelings are so mixed at the moment that I can't even form an opinion right now. Well... maybe one... I miss the Shining South. :( I wonder if the new continent will be Greyhawk? :confused:
Alediran 01-31-08, 06:25 AM	I read the article and I come back to just dismissing 4E Realms out of hand. The game mechanics may be all well and good, but the setting is just post-apocalyptic, which is not what I want in my Realms games. So, fie to all of it I say. If and when I game in the Realms, it will be using a home brewed update to the setting to make it a 4E compatible extension of the 3E setting. I wonder how many others are going to be doing that. The Realms Vault team is actually doing that. We'll create an alternative realms for people who still want to play in 3rd edition and use 4th edition rules but not the FR setting.
Alediran 01-31-08, 06:31 AM	Mark don't continue to give them ideas...
Charles Phipps 01-31-08, 06:41 AM	Mark don't continue to give them ideas... Actually, that wouldn't bother me at all. We can have Hextor vs. Bane, Wee Jass vs. Kelemvor, and Pelor will mix it up with Lathander for whose the nicest bad guy. Vecna can eat Velsharoon. But yes, it seems to boil down to the fact that the Shining South has been utterly obliterated and the same for Maztica. For some reason, Zhakara and Kara-Tur are left alone though for reasons I'm not entirely sure of. For all intents and purposes, I think the new Shining South will be something that Richard Baker and his people hope will be more "interesting" and marketable than the rest. The problem was that the Shining South was never that popular in my games because it always felt so damned removed from what's important in the Realms. The only ones I ever considered using were Halruaa and Dambrath because "Non-Evil Magocracy" and "Surface Evil Drow Matriarchy with Whips---Except Not-Men Haters!" (I'm pathetic I know) So far, all we've confirmed is a Kingdom of Draconians and a Big :censored: hole. Ironically, the Big :censored: hole is right next to another Big :censored: hole filled with Dwarves. They're not really something I'm interested in playing with. I swear though, I will pitch a fit if Mulhorandi is replaced by a Kingdom of Salamanders (Guys----NO ONE LIKED THAT EXAMPLE! Humans are good! We like them!) You need something fresh and original to make the South interesting. The Dragonborn aren't going to do it unless they become somehow threatening to the rest of Faerun (I suggest Dragons). Also, Halruaa needs something in it. I don't think anyone is as Dungeon Starved for adventures that they need a new Mournlands. (And no offense guys: The appeal of the Mournland in Eberron is no one knows what caused it and everyone wonders if it'll happen to someone else's land. A mournland caused by the Spell Plague is something that lacks all tension)
Reneshat 01-31-08, 07:52 AM	I swear though, I will pitch a fit if Mulhorandi is replaced by a Kingdom of Salamanders (Guys----NO ONE LIKED THAT EXAMPLE! Humans are good! We like them!) That's only because you don't know their plan. Mulhorand has been replaced by a giant pit. Yes, the giant pit is filled with Salamanders, but you were completely overlooking the true gold of the idea, which is the giant pit. Actually, there will be no 5ed Forgotten Realms, but the uber-cool, really sick, awesome Forgotten Pits. I can't wait. Seriously, I will bet cold hard cash that Mulhorand is going to be replaced with an otherworldly Tiefling empire, possibly from the same place as the Dragonborn, so they can have them just pop in with the animosity already set in the backstory, no fuss, no muss. So anyone want to put money on it?
Rauric 01-31-08, 08:39 AM	This may not be new to anyone but I read the article and was fine with it. I am sure the campaign book will clear up certain parts I am unlear with. I hate Maztica so good times! Kara-Tur I think will be untouched I heard somewhere and I really could care less about Zhakarra. I never played or cared about most of the places they touched. I did like Halruua though but I heard they might be now considered mercenary wizards now or something. The Shar thing about supressing new gods might not be anything through her power but she might have used diplomatic means to stop a new god of magic from popping up. Perhaps she mentioned that the world had more problems due to a god of magic than it would have if there was none.
Fabius Maximus 01-31-08, 09:18 AM	Hah! I like it. Maztica's gone. Good riddance. Unther and Mulhorand are gone. Good riddance. I don't care about Chondath or Chessenta, but what about the Vilhon Reach? As I predicted, Shar's loosing the Shadow Weave, and spellcasters can access the Shadow Magic directly. I like that. Halruaa goes boom. Well, I think that's a bit much. I liked Halruaa, and I think the Shaar had potential. But as the great contemporary philosoph Mick Jagger once said: "You can't always get what you want". I like the fact that the spellcasters don't go nuts when the plague strikes. It would have been a bit tough to explain why so many of them are still around.
18DELTA 01-31-08, 10:44 AM	So, do you all bow down to me now, since I was nearly 100% on the money? :P (except for the 'un-sundering', but the article DID mention time changing as well) Chult becoming an island... I distinctly recall mentioning that at least twice... once to Rich Baker himself. I can't say I'm suprised at any of this, but I am suprised at my own reaction to it - its almost akin to... satisfaction. Its kind of wierd to be simultaneously sad and elated. My feelings are so mixed at the moment that I can't even form an opinion right now. Well... maybe one... I miss the Shining South. :( I wonder if the new continent will be Greyhawk? :confused: -YOU MUST BE STOPPED!!!;) :P :D 18DELTA:P
18DELTA 01-31-08, 10:56 AM	Vecna can eat Velsharoon. -:yuck: :uh-huh: :nonono: :twitch: :shifty: :blink: :gah: :doh: The problem was that the Shining South was never that popular in my games because it always felt so damned removed from what's important in the Realms. The only ones I ever considered using were Halruaa and Dambrath because "Non-Evil Magocracy" and "Surface Evil Drow Matriarchy with Whips---Except Not-Men Haters!" (I'm pathetic I know) -That why I liked it, plus the chains and whips. But I am a sicko anyways!!!:D So far, all we've confirmed is a Kingdom of Draconians and a Big :censored: hole. Ironically, the Big :censored: hole is right next to another Big :censored: hole filled with Dwarves. They're not really something I'm interested in playing with. -Nah, their big hole just got bigger. I am a dwarf at heart so I like really big holes. So I am kinda happy.;) :P :D -It wouldn't suprise me if the tiefling kingdom was somewhere around the old Narfell. Maybe it where Maztica used to be?:eek: 18DELTA;)
Lord Karsus 01-31-08, 12:39 PM	I hate Maztica so good times! -I did too. However, you can't just "hit the reset button" and have everything be fine.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-31-08, 01:35 PM	-Good point. It's like trying to buy a falafel with rupies on 8th avenue. Rupees? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB7rIG2GR7w&feature=related) Why, does this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmIS3DE6Q8c&feature=related) happen?:)
Lord Karsus 01-31-08, 02:09 PM	Rupees? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB7rIG2GR7w&feature=related) Why, does this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmIS3DE6Q8c&feature=related) happen?:) -Indeed, why does that always happen, that you post links to that G-d awful game? :P
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-31-08, 02:25 PM	-Indeed, why does that always happen, that you post links to that G-d awful game? :P Because the Zelda CD-i games feature amazing insights about the human experience.:) :P
Lord Karsus 01-31-08, 02:29 PM	Because the Zelda CD-i games feature amazing insights about the human experience.:) :P -...I guess...That one clip does explain capitalism, and credit.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-31-08, 02:32 PM	-...I guess...That one clip does explain capitalism, and credit. Indeed, and it teaches you how to interact with merchants in real life.
Lord Karsus 01-31-08, 02:34 PM	Indeed, and it teaches you how to interact with merchants in real life. -Walk around with your weapon brandished, and stare at their asses? Alright, I guess I'll try it and see what happens...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-31-08, 02:35 PM	-Walk around with your weapon brandished, and stare at their asses? Alright, I guess I'll try it and see what happens... :rofl: It might be fun.
18DELTA 01-31-08, 02:36 PM	-Walk around with your weapon brandished, and stare at their asses? Alright, I guess I'll try it and see what happens... -:rofl: :bow: :rofl: Tell us how that works out for ya LK!?!?!?:P -Will you need bail money?:P -Should the HANDS start a bail the boss out of jail fund? 18DELTA;)
GothicDan 01-31-08, 04:29 PM	R.I.P.
MarkusTay63 01-31-08, 04:51 PM	So far, all we've confirmed is a Kingdom of Draconians and a Big :censored: hole. Ironically, the Big :censored: hole is right next to another Big :censored: hole filled with Dwarves. They're not really something I'm interested in playing with.A small, barely-used hole, next to a big gaping hole... Nevermind... :rolleyes: Either way, it smells bad. ;)
Lord Karsus 01-31-08, 05:00 PM	-Er....:nonono:
Alediran 01-31-08, 05:07 PM	A small, barely-used hole, next to a big gaping hole... Nevermind... :rolleyes: Either way, it smells bad. ;) :rofl:
XHereticX 02-01-08, 08:15 AM	Indeed, and it teaches you how to interact with merchants in real life. What kind of deranged 3rd world country do you live in????:confused:
18DELTA 02-01-08, 11:31 AM	A small, barely-used hole, next to a big gaping hole... Nevermind... :rolleyes: Either way, it smells bad. ;) -Why you stinker!:P 18DELTA;)
Priamon 02-01-08, 11:37 AM	I'm looking forward to the 4E realms. Even if things are totaly :censored: up it will still be a change. Forgotten realms has felt stagnant to my group for a long time. I'm optimistic about alot of the changes due to the fact that while the realms has always been the potential place to adventure in for my group, there was a lot of material that I just didn't like. I'm glad that a good portion of the deities are getting killed off, I'm amazed that they were ever able to come up with that many deities in the first place. I've always hated racial deities, although I will say that few here and there tend to make things interesting. I'd actually like to see a multitude of deitie names, but few deities in existence, as different areas have different languages and different names for the deities, but possibly similar aspects of faith that apply to the same deity. I'm glad that Angels aren't all "Lawful good" but I wish that the Devils and Demons were all angels to. Good thing this is D&D and thats how I can write them!:D I'm not sure I like the introduction of the Dragonborn, why didn't they just have them show up when Abeir started showing up? Although I never really liked the Shaar anyhow so I'm not exactly against the introduction either. I'm really interested to see a map of how the Spellplague has affected things. I hope that they didn't just go- "Okay, well this place sucks, lets have it hit here, and here, and here."- I'll be kosher with it if they have it form some kind of pattern, even if its an abstract one. It does seem like they are looking at Eberron a bit and going -"Doh! Why didn't we think of that! Thats cool!"- But I'm fine with that as long as they can write it in with out being chee-zy. All in all, Regardless of what they've done, I'm still looking forward to it. I'm not going to hash on them just because they had a vision of what Faerun should be today and its different from what it was when they first made it. Really they're just a gaming group that has the money, writes and publishing companies to present all of their house rules to the rest of the gaming community. And my group has been changing things since 12:00Am 3.0 release date. So can't really blame them. my 2 cents.
Lord Karsus 02-01-08, 01:28 PM	I'm really interested to see a map of how the Spellplague has affected things. -As am I. How exactly do you illustrate gaping holes, floating landmasses, and Plaguelands? I hope that they didn't just go- "Okay, well this place sucks, lets have it hit here, and here, and here." -I am fairly sure this is what they are doing. Chris Perkins, I believe it was, stated in an interview that they were going to be changing "less popular" areas. Now, what exactly constitutes a "popular area" I don't know, but I don't think it's a stretch of the imagination to say that "less popular areas suck". -Oh, and I went to Best Buy yestarday, to by a wireless controller for my PS2, and I took the advice given to me from Zelda, minus the walking around with a weapon part.
XHereticX 02-01-08, 01:55 PM	- -I am fairly sure this is what they are doing. Chris Perkins, I believe it was, stated in an interview that they were going to be changing "less popular" areas. Now, what exactly constitutes a "popular area" I don't know, but I don't think it's a stretch of the imagination to say that "less popular areas suck". -Oh, and I went to Best Buy yestarday, to by a wireless controller for my PS2, and I took the advice given to me from Zelda, minus the walking around with a weapon part. You still play a PS2???? Grougnard...:rolleyes:
Lord Karsus 02-01-08, 02:10 PM	You still play a PS2???? Grougnard...:rolleyes: -I'd like to buy a Wii, but I can't find any that are actually physically in stores, or are reasonably priced online ($400+ doesn't cut it). And, I am not shelling out $400 on a crappy PS3 that doesn't have any games I like thus far, and fails to impress me. Oh, and I boycot X-Box and X-Box 360. Never so much as held the controller of either. -I regularly play PS1 games and SNES games, still.
XHereticX 02-01-08, 02:15 PM	-I'd like to buy a Wii, but I can't find any that are actually physically in stores, or are reasonably priced online ($400+ doesn't cut it). And, I am not shelling out $400 on a crappy PS3 that doesn't have any games I like thus far, and fails to impress me. Oh, and I boycot X-Box and X-Box 360. Never so much as held the controller of either. -I regularly play PS1 games and SNES games, still. I have a 360, and Halo 3 is a blast. But older games are good too. When it comes to electronics, I try to be up-to-date.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-01-08, 02:36 PM	I'm optimistic about alot of the changes due to the fact that while the realms has always been the potential place to adventure in for my group, there was a lot of material that I just didn't like. You could have just changed that material yourself. You didn't need WotC to change it for you.
Alediran 02-01-08, 02:37 PM	You still play a PS2???? Grougnard...:rolleyes: That's nothing. I have MAME and SNES emulators.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-01-08, 02:38 PM	-Oh, and I went to Best Buy yestarday, to by a wireless controller for my PS2, and I took the advice given to me from Zelda, minus the walking around with a weapon part. See, I was right! I'm very happy to hear that.:) I think I want a Wii now, myself...
XHereticX 02-01-08, 02:44 PM	See, I was right! I'm very happy to hear that.:) I think I want a Wii now, myself... A way for us not so physically fit individuals to get our exercise:D
Lord Karsus 02-01-08, 02:53 PM	See, I was right! I'm very happy to hear that.:) -I, for one, thought the view was good. A way for us not so physically fit individuals to get our exercise:D -I think they actually have 'exercise' games. -A D&D game on the Wii could be fun, as would any 'sword' game, really.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-01-08, 03:08 PM	A way for us not so physically fit individuals to get our exercise:D Speak for yourself.;) I like games, but overall I get plenty of exercise.
XHereticX 02-01-08, 03:52 PM	--A D&D game on the Wii could be fun, as would any 'sword' game, really. Agreed. Though if you want a sword game play Twilight Princess on the Wii. Ahh yes, our fingers certainly get enough exercise from all this typing
GreenKnight 02-01-08, 05:19 PM	That's nothing. I have MAME and SNES emulators. Heh, you're not the only one. I still play Super Mario Bros. and Mike Tyson's Punch-Out every once in a while. And after all this time, I STILL haven't beaten Legend of Zelda II. :nonono:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-01-08, 08:05 PM	Heh, you're not the only one. I still play Super Mario Bros. and Mike Tyson's Punch-Out every once in a while. And after all this time, I STILL haven't beaten Legend of Zelda II. :nonono: I've heard that game is super hard... Yes, I'm still fond of certain NES games, myself! Super Mario Bros. 3 was a great one.
XHereticX 02-01-08, 08:09 PM	Heh, you're not the only one. I still play Super Mario Bros. and Mike Tyson's Punch-Out every once in a while. And after all this time, I STILL haven't beaten Legend of Zelda II. :nonono: You my friend, need a strategy guide.
GreenKnight 02-01-08, 09:39 PM	I've heard that game is super hard... Yes, I'm still fond of certain NES games, myself! Super Mario Bros. 3 was a great one. I loved the raccoon suit, despite the fact that it made no sense that it gave one the ability to turn into a statue. It was strange, but cool. :) As for SNES games, I love Donkey Kong Country. Although the mine level in the cart was a killer. I remember first time I played it. A friend rented it from Blockbuster and we started to play it, til we got to that level. It was my turn, and I played it through, and beat it the first time. We were both pretty impressed by that performance, as that level was just damn scary. Unfortunately, the levels that followed were pretty hard, and thanks to attrition, we ran out of lives before we could reach the save point. So we had to do the mine cart level again. What. A. Nightmare! I wasn't able to beat it, again. He couldn't beat it at all. We literally spent HOURS that night trying to get past that level a second time. It was something like 3 or 4 am before we decided to just quit. :surrender Oh well. Soon as I learned about emulators, I got one with Donkey Kong Country and beat it, at last. I was pretty surprised, though, as it kept track by percentage. Turns out the 50% point is the end. I was expecting that to simply be the halfway point. You my friend, need a strategy guide. It's the same area of the game where I always get killed. It's a part where there's a choke point you have to pass by running a gauntlet which involves a bunch of bastards up on a wall chucking spears and other crud down at you. I'm not long for the game after that point. My first play through was a nightmare, though. There's a part where you can access two castles. Would you believe that I took keys from the second castle and used them to unlock doors in the first castle? D'OH! I beat it and so ended up short on keys for the second castle. Couldn't advance after that.
Charles Phipps 02-01-08, 09:43 PM	I'd like to take a moment to mourn these Realms Classics who didn't make it to 4E. Halastar, Khelben, and Sylune. Ye shall be missed.
XHereticX 02-01-08, 10:49 PM	I'd like to take a moment to mourn these Realms Classics who didn't make it to 4E. Halastar, Khelben, and Sylune. Ye shall be missed. As well as the many others that will inevidably be revealed as decreased, we salute you:(
Priamon 02-02-08, 01:44 AM	You could have just changed that material yourself. You didn't need WotC to change it for you. Thats true and we did to some extent. But there are some of those people that sit at the table and say -"wait a miniute, thats not how that area is," or something along those lines, Not to mention the time needed to do those activities. When you can only manage to play one night a week and the rest of the time your focused on work and kids and whatever else may be going on in real life... well I'd just rather deal with things the way they are and try and get the best of it. Its a lot easier for me to pick up a new book that re-hashes old material for $35 then try and re-write a portion of an all encompasing world. So like I said, I'm optimistic, I know theres going to be other stuff that I don't like, but I figure if they fix 10 things that I didn't like about Faerun then my money is well spent and I don't have to debate with the few "Canon" players at my table for 1/2 of our game night. ... .... probaly more like 3/4 of the night for the first 6 months after release about the pros and cons of the new books. heheh.:D
Lord Karsus 02-02-08, 01:49 AM	I'd like to take a moment to mourn these Realms Classics who didn't make it to 4E. Halastar, Khelben, and Sylune. Ye shall be missed. -Halaster and Khelben's deaths- especially Khelben's death- are much easier to swallow than Sylune's final death.
Charles Phipps 02-02-08, 01:58 AM	Oddly, I had no problem with it. Because Sylune shouldn't really be wandering around the Realms adventuring in a cursed half-life state.
Lord Karsus 02-02-08, 02:00 AM	Because Sylune shouldn't really be wandering around the Realms adventuring in a cursed half-life state. -Being a Chosen of Mystra comes with some drawbacks. Mystra wasn't "done" with her. Look at the mad Elven queen, whose name is escaping me at the moment. Begins with either an 'A', or an 'E'...Eloevan?
Dexter_Blacktyde 02-02-08, 06:58 AM	When you can only manage to play one night a week and the rest of the time your focused on work and kids and whatever else may be going on in real life... Only? I'm glad when I get to play one night a month - because usually it's one night every other month -, you lucky devil, you. -Halaster and Khelben's deaths- especially Khelben's death- are much easier to swallow than Sylune's final death. Why? I for one don't have a problem with her finally biting the dust. IMC she died and stayed dead. If WotC hadn't been planning to kill off almost all iconics anyway, I think it's safe to say that Khelben and Halaster would've come back. In the Realms they all do. Well, until now. DB
Lord Karsus 02-02-08, 10:07 AM	Why? I for one don't have a problem with her finally biting the dust. IMC she died and stayed dead. If WotC hadn't been planning to kill off almost all iconics anyway, I think it's safe to say that Khelben and Halaster would've come back. In the Realms they all do. Well, until now. -In my mind, a hero should die a heroes death. Like Khelben. And, in a roundabout way, like Halaster. Sylune's death was very much anti-climactic. It was more or less, "Oh yeah, you're dead. Permanently."
Charles Phipps 02-02-08, 02:56 PM	I felt that it actually had some rather horrific poignancy. Sylune is a heroine and yet she's banished by the Sharists fulfilling her dream on a technicality.
XHereticX 02-03-08, 12:19 PM	-Being a Chosen of Mystra comes with some drawbacks. Mystra wasn't "done" with her. Look at the mad Elven queen, whose name is escaping me at the moment. Begins with either an 'A', or an 'E'...Eloevan? It's Aloevan. Aloevan of Ardeep I recall. I have always wondered about her backstory. Got a link?
Lord Karsus 02-03-08, 12:50 PM	I have always wondered about her backstory. Got a link? -Embrae Aloevan of Ardeep, Chosen of Mystra and Sehanine Moobow. -All that there really is is her basic backstory. You know that, or re you looking for more?
XHereticX 02-03-08, 12:52 PM	-Embrae Aloevan of Ardeep, Chosen of Mystra and Sehanine Moobow. -All that there really is is her basic backstory. You know that, or re you looking for more? Yep I know that already, I need more.
Lord Karsus 02-03-08, 01:07 PM	Yep I know that already, I need more. -Yeah, that's pretty much it.
XHereticX 02-03-08, 01:09 PM	-Yeah, that's pretty much it. Ahh, I hate when Realmslore dosen't get more elaborate.
Lord Karsus 02-03-08, 01:14 PM	Ahh, I hate when Realmslore dosen't get more elaborate. -You could ask Ed, if there isn't an NDA on it (and, I don't know why there might be). That's what he's good for- further elaborating/illuminating things like that.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-03-08, 05:26 PM	As for SNES games, I love Donkey Kong Country. Same here! Though my favorite is DKC2.:)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-03-08, 05:28 PM	Thats true and we did to some extent. But there are some of those people that sit at the table and say -"wait a miniute, thats not how that area is," or something along those lines, Not to mention the time needed to do those activities. When you can only manage to play one night a week and the rest of the time your focused on work and kids and whatever else may be going on in real life... well I'd just rather deal with things the way they are and try and get the best of it. Its a lot easier for me to pick up a new book that re-hashes old material for $35 then try and re-write a portion of an all encompasing world. Understood. Everyone's circumstances are different.
Lord Karsus 02-04-08, 12:07 AM	Same here! Though my favorite is DKC2.:) -Mine was DKC3. :embarrass -When I was like, 10 or whatever, my friend rented that game from Blockbuster, and we stayed up like all night playing it. The only DKC game I ever beat, as I never really played any of the others. :cool:
MarkusTay63 02-04-08, 01:57 AM	It was Legend f Zelda: A Link to the Past for me. :D I've been playing video games since before computers had 'video' (my school had teletypes!), and was amazed by the technological marvel that was Space Invaders. But Zelda was the first game that ever really 'hooked' me. :cloud9:
Charles Phipps 02-04-08, 02:48 AM	http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/toon/20071219a&authentic=true My review of this is... Well, this is pretty much exactly my group except the Gnome would be asking if he could get his Race alignment changed to Chaotic Evil.
Lord Karsus 02-04-08, 03:30 AM	-Heh, you took the time to review that...:) -I'd like more of those animations.
Alediran 02-04-08, 09:23 AM	It was Legend f Zelda: A Link to the Past for me. :D I've been playing video games since before computers had 'video' (my school had teletypes!), and was amazed by the technological marvel that was Space Invaders. But Zelda was the first game that ever really 'hooked' me. :cloud9: Me too, but I could play it only when emulators were available. Another game that I loves was Super Mario World 1 for SNES.
MarkusTay63 02-04-08, 11:08 AM	Ganon would pwn Larloch! :P <well... not really...> Anyway, I can't believe you brought back that 'ebil' video. To tell the truth, this was the first time I watched it until the end - glad to see that spikey-haired cretin with bad teeth got what he deserved. Obviousy, evil is 'cool' in 4e - what happened to the world's 'heroes'? :(
Charles Phipps 02-04-08, 11:17 AM	Obviousy, evil is 'cool' in 4e - what happened to the world's 'heroes'? :( I find it amusing that the most heroic group I ever ran is made up of a bunch of freakish half-monsters. ;-)
Alediran 02-04-08, 11:45 AM	The most heroic group I'm runing is full of elves and one Aasimar.
Lord Karsus 02-04-08, 11:50 AM	Obviousy, evil is 'cool' in 4e - what happened to the world's 'heroes'? :( -They are still there. They just wear leather, and are all moody, like the X-Men in Grant Morrison's run...:nonono:
Charles Phipps 02-04-08, 11:58 AM	The most heroic group I'm runing is full of elves and one Aasimar. Mine is a Naga, Bhaalspawn, Tiefling, Half-Giant, and an Aasimar. The later one is the one that most struggles with his heritage. :-) Oh yes and a gnome but they don't count.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-04-08, 01:27 PM	-Mine was DKC3. :embarrass -When I was like, 10 or whatever, my friend rented that game from Blockbuster, and we stayed up like all night playing it. The only DKC game I ever beat, as I never really played any of the others. :cool: To each, their own.:) DKC 3 was my least favorite, but I still enjoyed it. If you ever have the desire to try DKC 1 or DKC 2, I highly recommend them though.
Lord Karsus 02-04-08, 01:32 PM	To each, their own.:) DKC 3 was my least favorite, but I still enjoyed it. If you ever have the desire to try DKC 1 or DKC 2, I highly recommend them though. -I have the Gameboy remake of DKC1, that I'm about 80% done with. Of course, I haven't played the Gameboy in a few years (I recently turned it on, and was disheartened to see that my Pokemon cartridge had it's internal battery run out, erasing all of my hard work. :weep:), but if I ever get the urge...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-04-08, 02:29 PM	-I have the Gameboy remake of DKC1, that I'm about 80% done with. Of course, I haven't played the Gameboy in a few years (I recently turned it on, and was disheartened to see that my Pokemon cartridge had it's internal battery run out, erasing all of my hard work. :weep:), but if I ever get the urge... Awww. :( I have the Gameboy DKC, myself, although I haven't finished it (heck, I don't think I even got CLOSE to finishing it).
Priamon 02-04-08, 03:03 PM	Ganon would pwn Larloch! :P <well... not really...> Anyway, I can't believe you brought back that 'ebil' video. To tell the truth, this was the first time I watched it until the end - glad to see that spikey-haired cretin with bad teeth got what he deserved. Obviousy, evil is 'cool' in 4e - what happened to the world's 'heroes'? :( Nah, its more like Evil and good don't exist as defining lines.Characters can be more dynamic. Or. they can be exactly as they have been for however long. Straight to their "alignment"
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-04-08, 07:35 PM	Well, more specifically, good and evil now mean more, according to Worlds and Monsters. If you are "good", you don't merely agree with goodly ideals, you are a FORCE for good and a defense against evil forces.
Lord Karsus 02-04-08, 10:35 PM	Well, more specifically, good and evil now mean more, according to Worlds and Monsters. If you are "good", you don't merely agree with goodly ideals, you are a FORCE for good and a defense against evil forces. -So, conversely, anything that is going to be evil is going to be brutally evil. Hmm...
Charles Phipps 02-04-08, 10:52 PM	This could have a severe effect on Orcs if they're not listed as EVIL.
Lord Karsus 02-04-08, 11:35 PM	This could have a severe effect on Orcs if they're not listed as EVIL. -Yes, which was what my 'Hmm...' was alluding to. Depending on how 'brutal', evil, and by proxy, possibly Orcs are going to be, that can throw a wrench in both the concept of 'Good Orcs' and 'Bad Orcs'.
Reneshat 02-05-08, 01:35 AM	All this discussion is going to force me to bust out my old SNES and games. All the DKC games were fun, but DKC 2 was the best in my opinion. Of course Zelda: A Link to the Past and Super Mario World were classics. However, I'm surprised I'm not seeing more Squaresoft on the list. Secret of Mana, FFII (IV), FFIII (VI), and of course who can forget Chrono Trigger. I almost forgot the Super Mario RPG game, surprisingly good, I should definitely bust it out when I bust them all out. More useful to the actual discussion, I like Charles' explanation of the reason Orcs and other races don't get along. I don't think that as a race they are any more naturally inclined towards evil, I believe it is a cultural effect, and one that has been exacerbated by the fact they are carnivores with a more limited food supply, and an evil god that is more of a pain than anything else. They should have just as much capacity for good, they simply have to work around cultural influences. Like many cultures that have dangerous and often self-destructive issues, a charismatic leader with wisdom, foresight, and the right gravitas can help lead the culture out of the pit they are stuck in. Obould seems like one of these leaders, the right man (orc) at the right time. The wise and hopeful should view this as an opportunity to secure themselves against a threat with a more long-term and effective solution by limiting the roots of the threat rather than simply the threat itself. This of course stands starkly against more traditional views of "Orcs are evil." However, it's important to note that the 3.5 MM says that orcs are "often Chaotic Evil." Not usually CE or always CE but only often CE.
Lord Karsus 02-05-08, 01:39 AM	However, I'm surprised I'm not seeing more Squaresoft on the list. -Well, we're not talking about video games. We're talking about 4e materials. If we were talking about SNES games, I would have already mentioned Sim City, Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy II/IV, Final Fantasy II/VI, Super Mario RPG, Secret of Mana, Gemfire, Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past, Super Mario World, Fire Emblem, Actraiser, Shadowrun, and a few others.
Reneshat 02-05-08, 01:44 AM	-Well, we're not talking about video games. We're talking about 4e materials. If we were talking about SNES games, I would have already mentioned Sim City, Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy II/IV, Final Fantasy II/VI, Super Mario RPG, Secret of Mana, Gemfire, Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past, Super Mario World, Fire Emblem, Actraiser, Shadowrun, and a few others. The thread was talking about SNES games (and DKC for the gameboy.) It's not supposed to be, but since everyone else was doing it....:D
Charles Phipps 02-05-08, 02:09 AM	More useful to the actual discussion, I like Charles' explanation of the reason Orcs and other races don't get along. I don't think that as a race they are any more naturally inclined towards evil, I believe it is a cultural effect, and one that has been exacerbated by the fact they are carnivores with a more limited food supply, and an evil god that is more of a pain than anything else. They should have just as much capacity for good, they simply have to work around cultural influences. Like many cultures that have dangerous and often self-destructive issues, a charismatic leader with wisdom, foresight, and the right gravitas can help lead the culture out of the pit they are stuck in. Obould seems like one of these leaders, the right man (orc) at the right time. The wise and hopeful should view this as an opportunity to secure themselves against a threat with a more long-term and effective solution by limiting the roots of the threat rather than simply the threat itself. Thanks, Renshat. Bizarrely, one of the fun themes I play with in my Forgotten Realms is taking the :censored: out of the conflict between good and evil. Maybe it's just Elminster or my own cynicism but I think the Forgotten Realms works extremely well for setting up traditional fantasy conflicts of Good vs. Evil yet also making it clear that its not always as cut and dry as the people would like it to be. One of the fun issues about Orcs and food supply is, while that certainly explains part of their racial tension. It also doesn't really do much of anything to explain Bugbears, Kobolds, and other races. In the case of Gnolls, it's purely because they're almost universally controlled by a Demon Lord whom has taken over their god. While there's genuine battles of Good vs. Evil in the Realms, all the time, I enjoy removing a lot of the grandeur. Bizarrely, this seems to help my mostly cynical twenty-somethings characters get a better feel for it. For the majority of Orcs, Kobolds, and so on. The idea of "Good vs. Evil" is irrelevant to them. They're motivated by centuries of racial hatred, being a marginalized peoples, and also the fact they're a disorganized bunch of rabbel for the most part. I suppose that I would probably very strongly liken them to Visigoths and Huns in my game. They're the Petty Evil of Day to Day Humanity given a monstrous form. They're a bunch of greedy mercenaries and brutes but not so disimilar to man. Likewise, I doubt anyone will make a testimony that the Realms have Good and Noble Humans of Gondor or Rohan to draw from. Pointing out that the Elves and Dwarves of Faerun are not perfect goes without saying. It makes the genuine heroes all the more noteworthy when they rise above the prejudices and stereotypes of the world to confront the REAL evil. Most "heroes" only care about defending their villages and livelihoods. While the heroes are people of the world with undead Kings and monstrously ambitous humans so on being the TRUE EPIC villains.
Lord Karsus 02-05-08, 02:13 AM	Maybe it's just Elminster or my own cynicism but I think the Forgotten Realms works extremely well for setting up traditional fantasy conflicts of Good vs. Evil yet also making it clear that its not always as cut and dry as the people would like it to be. -That is very true. Just look at the nearly day-to-do conversations we have on the nature of evil in Orcish society.
Alediran 02-05-08, 07:12 AM	-Well, we're not talking about video games. We're talking about 4e materials. If we were talking about SNES games, I would have already mentioned Sim City, Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy II/IV, Final Fantasy II/VI, Super Mario RPG, Secret of Mana, Gemfire, Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past, Super Mario World, Fire Emblem, Actraiser, Shadowrun, and a few others. You forgot Secret of Mana 2, only available in english if you play it on an emulator. The best graphics for the SNES, 3 different final bosses depending on character selection. Each character can select two times to change his class to an advanced form, for example the Thief Hawk can choose for the first time to be a Ninja or a Ranger. If he chooses Ranger he then can become a Wanderer (Druid :P) or a Rogue.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-05-08, 11:01 AM	-So, conversely, anything that is going to be evil is going to be brutally evil. Hmm... Yes.:) It's more than simply having "wicked thoughts" or whatever.
GothicDan 02-05-08, 11:11 AM	I do hope they do as they should, and provide large chunks of text regarding culture, society, etc. Back in 2E, these were my favorite parts of the monstrous manuals.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-05-08, 11:18 AM	I do hope they do as they should, and provide large chunks of text regarding culture, society, etc. Back in 2E, these were my favorite parts of the monstrous manuals. My educated guess is that they WILL do that, because they are focused on making sure every monster in 4E has a "place" in the setting and an interesting story behind it. They aren't importing monsters into 4E just because "they've always been there" or because of forced symmetry ("Hmm, we have the effreeti who are fire-based, and the djinn, who are air-based...now we need genies to fill in the other two elements, earth and water!").
GothicDan 02-05-08, 11:23 AM	I'm not quite sure how I feel about that, yet.
Alediran 02-05-08, 11:35 AM	Even in the Real World the balance of opposites is real, two sound waves that are exactly equal but opposite nulifies each other. Therefore taking symmetry out of D&D takes a huge part of what defines both the game and our lives.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-05-08, 01:17 PM	Well, to be honest I did find the endless symmetry to be annoying sometimes (ie. we have a race of elves who have mixed with demons, now let's have a race of elves who mixed with angels). Realistic or not, it isn't necessarily creative, and sometimes it was even lazy: W&M gave the example of a "frost lizard" that wasn't different from a "fire lizard" in any way except that it did cold damage instead of fire damage. Big deal. That's not to say there's nothing about the new races that I'm wary of (for example, the seemingly callous disposal of races that are always or usually good), but the design principle regarding "forced symmetry" isn't one that I'm necessarily against.
Lord Karsus 02-05-08, 01:21 PM	I'm not quite sure how I feel about that, yet. -Concerning certain things, like animals and creatures, I think that's a good thing. Especially if, in the shuffle, we get more information about the creatures who make the transition. Concerning other things, like Planes, I don't. Planes, you need to have opposites.
Alediran 02-05-08, 01:24 PM	Not that much symmetry. But from a Planescape poit of view, it's absolutely necessary to have a Frost Lizard if you have a Fire Lizard. Belive is power, and for each person that likes white, there is the same quantity of people who like black.
Lord Karsus 02-05-08, 01:37 PM	Not that much symmetry. But from a Planescape poit of view, it's absolutely necessary to have a Frost Lizard if you have a Fire Lizard. Belive is power, and for each person that likes white, there is the same quantity of people who like black. -Yes, which is why Planar Symmetry is good. But, having actual creatures that physically exist (Fire Lizard, Frost Lizard, etc.) isn't dependent/based on the belief of the multiverse. One of the things I disliked most about 3e is the various Monster Manuals. I only have MMI (I had MMII, but it got lost), have no problems, and in my mind, things started going downhill after glancing through MMIII. Was it really necessary?
Alediran 02-05-08, 01:49 PM	Until MMIII it was somewhat logical, just don't read MMIV, that one I almost burned it.
Lord Karsus 02-05-08, 01:53 PM	Until MMIII it was somewhat logical, just don't read MMIV, that one I almost burned it. -I knew at some point, things started getting redundant. Very much so. Different entries for 'Orc Archers', 'Orc Warriors', 'Orc Shamen', and so on...Come on....
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-05-08, 02:00 PM	Indeed, monsters started to get redundant after awhile, and it seems like the 4E designers are trying to avoid that this time (though I'm still a bit skeptical--after all, adding new stuff all the time is part of what makes money). Regarding symmetry of the planes--I got the impression that the designers didn't want to go that route because each plane requires (or so they believe) a plethora of creatures to populate it. Also, they've stated that some planes just weren't fun to adventure in (I can't vouch for the truth of that, though).
Lord Karsus 02-05-08, 02:02 PM	Regarding symmetry of the planes--I got the impression that the designers didn't want to go that route because each plane requires (or so they believe) a plethora of creatures to populate it. -Not necessarily. I don't know if templates are going to exist in 4e, but slap on the 'Fire Template' to creatures that live in the Plane of Fire, 'Water Template' to creatures that live in the Plane of Water, and so on. That, of course, is in addition to things that have obvious allegiances (Magmin are made of magma, and thus, would live on the Plane of Fire, and so on...). Also, they've stated that some planes just weren't fun to adventure in (I can't vouch for the truth of that, though). -Meh, opinions, opinions. Their opinion of 'fun' and 'adventuring' seems different from mine. I'd consider using the Plane of Vaccuum as some sort of prison interesting and fun. 'Cool', even. :)
18DELTA 02-05-08, 03:50 PM	-I knew at some point, things started getting redundant. Very much so. Different entries for 'Orc Archers', 'Orc Warriors', 'Orc Shamen', and so on...Come on.... -There is supposed to be like 5 friggin types of ORK'S in the 4E MM!!! One for every monster role.:rolleyes: 18DELTA:bored:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-05-08, 04:31 PM	-Not necessarily. I don't know if templates are going to exist in 4e, but slap on the 'Fire Template' to creatures that live in the Plane of Fire, 'Water Template' to creatures that live in the Plane of Water, and so on. That, of course, is in addition to things that have obvious allegiances (Magmin are made of magma, and thus, would live on the Plane of Fire, and so on...). Right, but that brings us back to something else they had a problem with--redundant monsters that they said (right in W&M) aren't up to par for professional game designers. -Meh, opinions, opinions. Their opinion of 'fun' and 'adventuring' seems different from mine. I'd consider using the Plane of Vaccuum as some sort of prison interesting and fun. 'Cool', even. :) Indeed, it's a matter of opinion. The designers take a dismissive attitude towards some things (like Profession skills) that no doubt rub some people the wrong way.
Lord Karsus 02-05-08, 04:33 PM	Right, but that brings us back to something else they had a problem with--redundant monsters that they said (right in W&M) aren't up to par for professional game designers. -Geeze...What don't they have a problem with? Picky, picky, picky.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-05-08, 05:46 PM	-Geeze...What don't they have a problem with? Picky, picky, picky. Heh, even I was put off by the Profession skills comment, and I don't even have a strong opinion about the issue. It more or less went like this: "Seriously, when was the last time anyone used any Profession skills in the game? And if you've used such a skill recently, your game must have been BOR-RING!" Not exactly an objective statement...
Lord Karsus 02-05-08, 06:15 PM	Heh, even I was put off by the Profession skills comment, and I don't even have a strong opinion about the issue. It more or less went like this: "Seriously, when was the last time anyone used any Profession skills in the game? And if you've used such a skill recently, your game must have been BOR-RING!" Not exactly an objective statement... -My sister's reaction to that statement: :twitch: -Said sister, who plays in my campaign, is a captain of a Spelljamming vessel, who reguarly uses her Profession (Sailor) skill to, you know, not crash her boat into things.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-05-08, 06:17 PM	-My sister's reaction to that statement: :twitch: -Said sister, who plays in my campaign, is a captain of a Spelljamming vessel, who reguarly uses her Profession (Sailor) skill to, you know, not crash her boat into things. Heh! I was thinking the same thing, who are they to say a campaign that uses Profession skills is "boring"? It's just a different type of game than they would like. You might want to pick up the preview books, just to see them for yourself.:P
Lord Karsus 02-05-08, 06:29 PM	You might want to pick up the preview books, just to see them for yourself.:P -I flipped through the first one, but I haven't done that to the first one. With a combined cost of $40...No, I don't really think so. For $40, I could find so many better uses. :)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-05-08, 06:42 PM	-I flipped through the first one, but I haven't done that to the first one. With a combined cost of $40...No, I don't really think so. For $40, I could find so many better uses. :) Heh, understood.:) I'd at least try to flip through W&M, though--the artwork is quite beautiful.
MarkusTay63 02-06-08, 12:39 AM	4e appears to be more of the 'bad' MM's - they don't want monsters that progress like PCs, therefore DMs will need examples of EVERY type of Orc possible, along with EVERY type of Bugbear, EVERY type of Gnoll, etc, etc... That will be how they will pad out the 4e MMs - not with 'creative (and often just plain strange) new monsters, but rather by given us MULTIPLE examples of the SAME EXACT MONSTER. Since 3e's 'monster scalability' is out the window (in order to reduce complexity), we now need a seperate stat block for every different variation we may encounter! How convenient, for a bunch of guys who haven't got a clue about how to come up with 'new' ideas and actually fill those books they need to sell EVERY SINGLE YEAR to us. Expect to see Goblinoid Monster Manual, volume VIII. :rolleyes: Sorry, but I'm not buying into this new form of Rolepay. :ahem:
Lord Karsus 02-06-08, 01:23 AM	That will be how they will pad out the 4e MMs... -I hope not...Not that I am going to be buying any of that, but it just doesn't sound, to me, very condusive to the long-term survival and growth of the game.
Flicker 02-06-08, 07:09 AM	LOL! That's the Watercourse trilogy, which takes place in Innarlith on the Lake of Steam (which, considering the location, probably didn't make out too well either). There was actually a trilogy that took place in Chondath, though--The Scions of Arrabar trilogy, which I really liked. I also enjoyed the House of Serpents trilogy, which took place in the yuan-ti ruled area of Hlondeth (which is not far at all from Chondath), Sesepch (which is apparently gone), and Chult (which is apparently now an island...). Apparently the 4E designers think so...or, think that there is a perception that it's hard to get to--their main point in W&M was that the interesting parts of the Underdark are harder to reach, and not suitable for players who aren't of high levels. The bits in the preview about the Underdark mentioned how getting to the Underdark would involve long treks through mostly boring tunnels, super-dangerous creatures, and complete darkness. Now, I'm not saying that those things are in themselves "good" or "bad", my point is that the designers want to make the Underdark more accessible and a place where even lower level characters can have an interesting adventure. And, I'm getting the impression that some of the land-resculpting going on in the 4E Realms map has to do with fitting the Realms into that mold (and other molds, as well). You know I had to laugh at this before I cried, not your point Rinn, the bit where you say about the perception of the underdark been difficult to get to as the developers saw it. There would be a reason for that, cos I don't care how hard Drow/Ithillids/Aboleth and all the other wonderful horrors of the underdark are, if you open it up then the 'upper' kingdoms can come and cause war, with slightly bigger populations. So there you have 200 mind flayers, well we have 20,000 soldiers, the underdark has to be closed to keep the evils a threat!!!! And why would a 1st level character want to go to a city (Menzobarranzen) for example where just looking at the wrong think in the wrong way could get it killed, yes it might be cool, but you know what, you have to be able to back up looking cool with something to it, or you aren't cool, just arrogant. And has anybody else noticed that the Forgotten realms aren't Forgotten anymore as they've just popped up and said 'hi'. I refer to my earlier points on the redistribution of geography in the, lets get rid of areas we don't think people adventure in.
Lord Karsus 02-06-08, 12:14 PM	I refer to my earlier points on the redistribution of geography in the, lets get rid of areas we don't think people adventure in. -That is almost literally what they told us in the last what they would be doing.
XHereticX 02-06-08, 07:54 PM	Yeah, as much as symmetry made sense in the larger D&D context, it did get extremely boring and redundant and I for one am glad the game is finally taking out the needless trash that built up as a result of trying to meet thisn eed with no fluff to explain it's actual place in the world. I want to see unique monsters with unique backgrounds.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-07-08, 02:55 PM	You know I had to laugh at this before I cried, not your point Rinn, the bit where you say about the perception of the underdark been difficult to get to as the developers saw it. There would be a reason for that, cos I don't care how hard Drow/Ithillids/Aboleth and all the other wonderful horrors of the underdark are, if you open it up then the 'upper' kingdoms can come and cause war, with slightly bigger populations. Heh. Again, their point is to accomodate the players more than kowtow to a sense of "realism" (I do agree that it's possible to go overboard with "realism" though, if it detracts from the game being fun). I think the idea is, why not make more use of such an interesting setting? That's not to say that every place in the Underdark is supposed to be equally safe--the guideline was make the Underdark as dangerous as you want it to be.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-07-08, 02:57 PM	Yeah, as much as symmetry made sense in the larger D&D context, it did get extremely boring and redundant and I for one am glad the game is finally taking out the needless trash that built up as a result of trying to meet thisn eed with no fluff to explain it's actual place in the world. I want to see unique monsters with unique backgrounds. I did smile when they mentioned taking out a monster that has some unpronouncable name (and they mentioned they couldn't figure it out, themselves!) like "acheaichai" or something. :rofl:
Alediran 02-07-08, 03:03 PM	I did smile when they mentioned taking out a monster that has some unpronouncable name (and they mentioned they couldn't figure it out, themselves!) like "acheaichai" or something. :rofl: If they can't pronounce that then they haven't experienced more difficult words. Or it's just that I have natural ability for languages (I dominate two languages: spanish and english) and I can manage to understand a little of other Latin Languages. That name would be pronounced Akeaikai.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-07-08, 03:07 PM	If they can't pronounce that then they haven't experienced more difficult words. Or it's just that I have natural ability for languages (I dominate two languages: spanish and english) and I can manage to understand a little of other Latin Languages. That name would be pronounced Akeaikai. Well, I'm sure I spelled the name wrong--just as it's hard to pronounce, it's hard to remember how to spell.:) The strangeness of the monster name wasn't the only issue the designers had with it, though (I think they said they found it redundant and/or didn't have an interesting enough story behind it), it was just the part that made me laugh.
Lord Karsus 02-07-08, 03:15 PM	I did smile when they mentioned taking out a monster that has some unpronouncable name (and they mentioned they couldn't figure it out, themselves!) like "acheaichai" or something. :rofl: -That one's easy: "Akiay-ky" The strangeness of the monster name wasn't the only issue the designers had with it, though (I think they said they found it redundant and/or didn't have an interesting enough story behind it), it was just the part that made me laugh. -Gee, and who's fault is that? ;)
ORC_Chaos 02-07-08, 03:15 PM	I have deleted one or more posts due to being off topic or baiting. Please keep all posts On Topic as well as civil and polite at all times. Chaos
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-07-08, 03:24 PM	-That one's easy: "Akiay-ky" You know what monster I was talking about? Heck, even I don't! It seemed like something that was pretty obscure. -Gee, and who's fault is that? ;) Great point.;) Although, it's possible that that particular monster is a "relic" that the current design team had nothing to do with. On the other hand, as I said before I am wary about "trimming the junk" from the setting, mainly because WotC makes money by putting out new stuff on a regular basis. "Clearing the field" is fine, but I find it hard to believe that the field won't eventually get filled up again.
Lord Karsus 02-07-08, 03:36 PM	You know what monster I was talking about? Heck, even I don't! It seemed like something that was pretty obscure. -No, I don't, but that's how I'd pronounce it. ;) "Clearing the field" is fine, but I find it hard to believe that the field won't eventually get filled up again. -In a few years, when the Monster Manual IV is published, how much do you want to bet that the 'Acheaichai' is a monster included in there? :cool:
Mula 02-08-08, 12:13 AM	Rino's talking about the achaierai. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/achaierai.htm)
Lord Karsus 02-08-08, 12:27 AM	Rino's talking about the achaierai. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/achaierai.htm) -That's just as easy: Ack-eye-er-eye. :: Shrugs ::
Mula 02-08-08, 10:38 PM	Yeah, I mean, anything that's pronounced "ack-ayhe-eiehe-ahaha-iii-eahaaaa-oo" is super easy. DUH.
Lord Karsus 02-08-08, 11:37 PM	Yeah, I mean, anything that's pronounced "ack-ayhe-eiehe-ahaha-iii-eahaaaa-oo" is super easy. DUH. -Just make like a monkey, and there you go. -I can semi understand the sentiment, but, some creatures are just going to have odd names. Period. For example, monsters from Kara-Tur. They are going to be Oriental sounding, some of which are going to be hard to pornounce at a glance. But, that's the (no pun intended) nature of the beast, you know?
18DELTA 02-09-08, 01:05 AM	...pornounce -Ha you said PORNOUNCE!!!:D 18DELTA;)
Lord Karsus 02-09-08, 01:12 AM	-That is, uh, awesome. Amazing how the placement of a single letter can change the meaning of a word so much. Same thing with punctuation marks.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-10-08, 07:43 PM	-In a few years, when the Monster Manual IV is published, how much do you want to bet that the 'Acheaichai' is a monster included in there? :cool: I'll bet it will be (and thanks for Mula for linking it). Having reread that part of W&M--the designers said the name was hard to pronounce and a lot of people apparently thought it looked silly, even though they admitted it's an interesting creature mechnically. So for now, they've ditched it. "Pornounce", LOL! :rofl:
Lord Karsus 02-10-08, 08:33 PM	Having reread that part of W&M--the designers said the name was hard to pronounce and a lot of people apparently thought it looked silly, even though they admitted it's an interesting creature mechnically. So for now, they've ditched it. -What's so silly about a "massive, 15-foot-tall flightless bird"? Especially in a multiverse that has Loxo, Nagas, Mimics? ;) "Pornounce", LOL! :rofl: -Geeze, I'm hearing it from everybody...:embarrass
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-10-08, 08:37 PM	-What's so silly about a "massive, 15-foot-tall flightless bird"? Especially in a multiverse that has Loxo, Nagas, Mimics? ;) True, it's not the only "silly-looking" creature in the MMs. Although, did you click on the "eye" in the link? It pops up a picture. The bird has four legs, and in spite of being Lawful Evil, it isn't very scary looking...in fact, it looks like something you could keep in a bird cage if it were smaller.:P Whatever the case may be, the designers didn't think it deserved "real estate" (they used that term) in the first MM. -Geeze, I'm hearing it from everybody...:embarrass Awww, don't worry, I thought it was FUNNY!:)
Lord Karsus 02-10-08, 08:50 PM	Although, did you click on the "eye" in the link? It pops up a picture. -No, I didn't know that at first, but that was the same monster I thought it was. Whatever the case may be, the designers didn't think it deserved "real estate" (they used that term) in the first MM. -Meh, I agree with them. In my mind, the Monster Manual should really have just the iconic monsters, the creatures in high demand. Then, subsequent books can have all of the less well-known, more "wacky" monsters. Awww, don't worry, I thought it was FUNNY!:) -Well, as long as it was well recieved...
Soltares 02-11-08, 04:36 PM	-Meh, I agree with them. In my mind, the Monster Manual should really have just the iconic monsters, the creatures in high demand. Then, subsequent books can have all of the less well-known, more "wacky" monsters. I remember getting the 3rd edition Monster Manual and seeing the Tojanida and thinking, 'what the hell were they smoking?' And how about that Yrthak!
Lord Karsus 02-12-08, 01:39 AM	-Yrthak are pretty cool. I used a tamed and trained version of them in my setting as the 'Air Force' of a particularly powerful Theocratic kingdom-bordering-empire in my setting. Them and Chocobos. That kingdom-bordering-empire seems to have a 'sun' and 'bird' motif going. Oddly, no Phoenix associated with them, though.
Flicker 02-12-08, 11:56 AM	Actually I tend to like my monsters to fill in locations. You know sort of 4/5 acquatic monsters,some desert ones etc etc, so I don't mind wierd and wacky and long as it sort of makes sense. Some of the monsters in the current MM i looked at and just shook my head, like when am i ever going to use that, then I looked at MM2/3/4 and thought ah some gap fillers and some complete crap, get rid of the crap, fill in the gaps. MM5 though was just complete crap and unfortunately given the statements about the revamp of the MM, it seems the 4e version will be filled with no use crap of only a few monsters. Out of eveything though, I'm really disappointed that the demon/devils books are scrapped, I thought Hordes of the Abyss and Legions of the Nine Hells were really well written.
MarkusTay63 02-12-08, 06:25 PM	Since MM V came out well into the development of 4e, expect it to be a harbinger of things to come. The books will have less monsters, but much larger entries including a half dozen or more variations on a 'theme'. Funny thing is, both of the fiend books came out during the early develoment of 4e, but I guess they didn't feel like put an expiration date on the cover. :bored:
Lord Karsus 02-12-08, 07:22 PM	Funny thing is, both of the fiend books came out during the early develoment of 4e, but I guess they didn't feel like put an expiration date on the cover. :bored: -Unveiling 4e was still a 'secret' at that point.
GothicDan 02-12-08, 08:23 PM	-Yrthak are pretty cool. I used a tamed and trained version of them in my setting as the 'Air Force' of a particularly powerful Theocratic kingdom-bordering-empire in my setting. Them and Chocobos. That kingdom-bordering-empire seems to have a 'sun' and 'bird' motif going. Oddly, no Phoenix associated with them, though. You stole my world! The desert-based solar theocracy, worshiping the three-faced sun god as lord of Dawn, Noon, and Dusk. Each aspect has an animal associated with it: Dawn/Phoenix, Noon/Lion, Dusk/Scorpion. There's Lesser Phoenixes which are less intelligent, fiery birds that trained people can ride, and there's the Greater Phoenixes that are proxies.
Lord Karsus 02-12-08, 08:33 PM	You stole my world! -It's proven that great minds think alike, without plagerism. Our two kingdoms only seem to have superficial similarities, however, in motif. Mine, for example, does not worship a tri-une sun deity, but instead, the sun deity. It is not located in a desert, and there is nothing particularly divine (as in the deities do not actually show their favor to the rulers of the kingdom) about it, asides for the fact that they see the sun deity as their patron, much like, say, the Holy Roman Empire. No Phoenix, either. In my setting, there is only one phoenix, and it is in no way affiliated with this place.
Markustay 02-14-08, 12:58 AM	My desert culture worships the Moon, which brings relief from the blistering Sun. :D
18DELTA 02-14-08, 01:53 AM	-Unveiling 4e was still a 'secret' at that point. -Right...those books also had 4E ideas in them. Most of what WotC put out in the last 2 years has some 4E ideas in them. Those 2 codex's were pretty good books IMHO. 18DELTA:)
Gadodel 02-14-08, 02:58 AM	Thanks for the review Charles. Any word if Durnan, Mirt or The Knights of Myth Drannor will continue or make the cut?
Lord Karsus 02-14-08, 07:23 AM	-Right...those books also had 4E ideas in them. -In retrospect, some of those "Huh?" moments make sense now. Thanks for the review Charles. Any word if Durnan, Mirt or The Knights of Myth Drannor will continue or make the cut? -Nope.
Markustay 02-14-08, 11:32 AM	Mirt becomes a demi-power under Phat Lewts. ;) <BTW, does anyone know where that thread is, with the made-up gods?)
Lord Karsus 02-14-08, 12:08 PM	<BTW, does anyone know where that thread is, with the made-up gods?) -WotC appropriated all of the content of the thread, and disappeared it, not wanting any evidence to be left laying around.
XHereticX 02-15-08, 08:52 PM	. Any word if Durnan, Mirt or The Knights of Myth Drannor will continue or make the cut? Hah, 100 after the Spellplague they should have all died from natural causes anyway. Or did they...:detect:
GothicDan 02-15-08, 11:51 PM	-It's proven that great minds think alike, without plagerism. Our two kingdoms only seem to have superficial similarities, however, in motif. Mine, for example, does not worship a tri-une sun deity, but instead, the sun deity. It is not located in a desert, and there is nothing particularly divine (as in the deities do not actually show their favor to the rulers of the kingdom) about it, asides for the fact that they see the sun deity as their patron, much like, say, the Holy Roman Empire. No Phoenix, either. In my setting, there is only one phoenix, and it is in no way affiliated with this place. Yeah. Similar themes, it seems. Both good. ;) But my growing knowledge of comparative cultural analysis, history, psychology, and soon mathematical linguistics will hopefully help me make the most realistic world possible.
GothicDan 02-15-08, 11:53 PM	My desert culture worships the Moon, which brings relief from the blistering Sun. One of the major aspects of my Sun Empire is that there's an ongoing rivalry between it and the Twilight Lands to the north, where the 'rebel' worshipers of the Moon (Sun's younger sister) and Darkness (his arch-nemesis) fled together, as Darkness seduced Moon and absconded with her into another part of the sky.
MarkusTay63 02-16-08, 12:51 AM	The little Ho! :eek: Always showing her 'moon' to everyone... and her "make-out" parties... So, is your Darkness god like Erebus? The other two sound a lot like Apollo and Athena...
GothicDan 02-16-08, 12:57 AM	Well, we don't have too much information on the actual characterization of Erebus. But I guess I'd have to say no, since according to the Theogony Erebus was one of the pre-Olympian, pre-Titanic divine figures, and hardly had any mention in Roman society. I think his name is mentioned in the Aeneid, as is Nix. He's very calm, patient, sneaky (but not overtly so, like Mask), refined, cool, etc. I sort of use him like a Yugoloth. The tripartite sun god has aspects that are LG, LN, and LE. The LG one is similar to Apollo + Athene, the LN one is sort of like Ra + Jupiter in character, and the LE one is sort of like old-school Jergal. The Moon Goddess had many aspects, too - New, Crescent, Gibbous, Half, and Full. Each had an alignment and specific portfolios associated with it - for instance, Full was passion and all of its extensions, sort of a lunar madness. Her greatest temple is also surrounded by the Slumberwood, with a magical dweomer cast on it that puts to sleep any enemies, and allows the right individuals to actually use the forest as a portal through which they can project themselves when sleeping. She's served by a flying cavalry that rides giant moths (Night has a bat-riding cavalry), and a small fleet of Twilight Vessels - great flying silvery ships that can planeshift in the light of the full moon and runs literally on dreaming clerics (like Spelljammers - they learned the technology from stolen Sun Vessels). She also has a contingent of agents/warriors, the Dream Knights, who use illusions, diversions, etc. to project their consciousnesses into the Dreamscape, where they can then enter the world again through slumbering individuals, OR battle slumbering individuals' astral selves... Of course, for this particular world, I had MANY pantheons. This was just some members of the one for the southernmost continent. Yeah.. I spent way too much time on stuff.
Charles Phipps 02-16-08, 03:00 AM	You know, I'd love to get some of you to read my book someday. You sound like the most excellent of thinkers. ;-)
Lord Karsus 02-16-08, 06:20 AM	Hah, 100 after the Spellplague they should have all died from natural causes anyway. Or did they...:detect: -Not necessarily. Them guys are all pretty old to begin with, maintaining their relative youth via Potions of Longetivity and whatnot. So, there's no real reason they'd stop drinking 'em. You sound like the most excellent of thinkers. -We are. ;)
MarkusTay63 02-16-08, 01:11 PM	I've often contemplated the fact that Torillians age somewhat slower the Earthers, or at least 'better'. There is mention of women having children into their fifties, which would have been unheard of in the Middle Ages. In the RW, girls started getting married and having children as young as thirteen, and you were considered middle-aged by the time you hit thrity! Also, Men like Azoun and the Yamun Khahan are still very fit and and are considered excellent warriors, not old men. Faerūnians appear to have a a longevity similar to Modern Earth humans, and perhaps a little greater. I figure, after they hit sixteen, that they only show the outward appearance of someone 2/3 their age. This doesn't unbalance anything, since life is rougher on Toril and most rural folks don't get to live to a ripe old age anyway. Maybe, if the Weave DID equal life (which has been noted in at least one source, but has since been down-played), its existance helped people in ways they were unaware. That means, in 4e, perhaps people will age more along the lines of RW humans of that period (Renaissance?), and we won't have people adventuring into their forties and fifties (and giving birth!) -We are. ;)I'd like to think so... I've always felt there was some 'elitism' amongst gamers... or rather, the whole 'Nerd' subculture (comics, Sci-Fi, cartoons, miniatures, etc...). It takes a certain amount of background knowledge to be able to handle most of the information our various hobbies require, and its nice to have conversations with people who don't just stare at you blankly when you use 'big words'. ;) However, 4e should be able to 'fix' that, so we can game with drooling idiots to our hearts content. :rolleyes:
GothicDan 02-16-08, 01:30 PM	The hard part is finding niches in society in which people are well-educated, logical thinkers, and NOT wastes of social space. I may be a bit nerdy and can be somewhat hermetic at times, but I very much no longer fit the 'nerd' stereotypes. I quit that back when I stopped trying to be a goth, and realized that being depressed sucked.
MarkusTay63 02-16-08, 01:45 PM	Going Goth is only fun if you want a girl(or boy)friend you can treat like crap, and they will like it, because it helps them to be all 'Emo'. Some Goth chicks are cute, but most just look bizarre. I personally prefer the intellectual 'Librarian' type... who are animals when they are alone. :D Nerd doesn't mean what it did when I was a kid - My brother-in-law is a 6'5" bodybuilder that can bench 500 lbs, but he still likes to play D&D and Warhammer whenever he gets the chance. These days, the stereotypical glases-wearing, pocket-protector using, AV-club joining Pointdexter is really a thing of the past, and is mostly just seen in comedy movies and cartoons. And BTW, most of those scripts are written by 'Nerds' who used to play D&D, and are now pulling down six figures. ;)
GothicDan 02-16-08, 01:50 PM	Now, nerd is pretty much synonymous with Asperger's. I have a touch of it (and my ADHD can be so bad at times I have to struggle constantly not to go Autistic), but it upsets me when I see parents who don't seek the attention necessary to help these kids at a younger age. A lot of people with Asperger's could have been helped during Early Intervention. But, I guess it's just more obvious to me, since my family's been in the Autistic/Asperger's/Fragile X/Down Syndrome/etc. therapy field for years and years, and I've picked up a lot.
XHereticX 02-16-08, 01:53 PM	The hard part is finding niches in society in which people are well-educated, logical thinkers, and NOT wastes of social space. I may be a bit nerdy and can be somewhat hermetic at times, but I very much no longer fit the 'nerd' stereotypes. I quit that back when I stopped trying to be a goth, and realized that being depressed sucked. That's not true actually. I know many gothic and what you would consiter emo people, and they are some of the happiest people I know.
GothicDan 02-16-08, 01:54 PM	Don't dispute my personal knowledge with your own personal knowledge. ;) Also, by definition, I consider goths/emo people to be somewhat defective just by how they look. I honestly think there's no reason not to look the best with what you have. And for males, I think, no one looks good as a goth. Females is a different story. As for the happiness issue... Well, I've had different experience. That doesn't make it factual or non-factual, though.
XHereticX 02-16-08, 02:01 PM	Don't dispute my personal knowledge with your own personal knowledge. ;) Also, by definition, I consider goths/emo people to be somewhat defective just by how they look. I honestly think there's no reason not to look the best with what you have. And for males, I think, no one looks good as a goth. Females is a different story. As for the happiness issue... Well, I've had different experience. That doesn't make it factual or non-factual, though. So that makes the subject quite subjective I should say.:P Also, there are HUGE differences between goths and emos. Goths are people that are depressed with society as a whole and seek refuge in their alternativeness, they also tend to enjoy being alone more. Emos on the other hand, have a far more personal focus and their self-hatred leads them to seek out those who can essentially "wipe away their tears." Also, many people that dress "emo" aren't emos at all but punks, and they just enjoy being all "dark" and flaunt it over others.
GothicDan 02-16-08, 02:03 PM	Pft, quit trying to quantify subcultures, especially ones that have very similar populations. By similar I mean - I bet all of them have self-esteem issues.
XHereticX 02-16-08, 02:07 PM	Pft, quit trying to quantify subcultures, especially ones that have very similar populations. By similar I mean - I bet all of them have self-esteem issues. That is a very broad generalization, and goths and emos themselves would just choke to see them grouped together in such a way. A lot of them are just poseurs anyway. As for self-esteem problems, it's not just goths and emos, not even close. People that often seem to have higher self-esteem often have the lowest of all, as they feed their self-esteem by exploiting that of others, and without that system they feel worthless (typical bully mentality).
Lord Karsus 02-16-08, 02:20 PM	-4e is emo.
XHereticX 02-16-08, 02:22 PM	-4e is emo. And 5e will be scene.
Lord Karsus 02-16-08, 02:23 PM	And 5e will be scene. -I don't even know that that is, but awesome.
GothicDan 02-16-08, 02:24 PM	That is a very broad generalization, and goths and emos themselves would just choke to see them grouped together in such a way. So, that's another way they're the same. :) A lot of them are just poseurs anyway. V. true. As for self-esteem problems, it's not just goths and emos, not even close. People that often seem to have higher self-esteem often have the lowest of all, as they feed their self-esteem by exploiting that of others, and without that system they feel worthless (typical bully mentality). I often consider religion a symptom of a low self-esteem and personal motivation, too. ;)
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 02-16-08, 02:29 PM	So, that's another way they're the same. :) V. true. I often consider religion a symptom of a low self-esteem and personal motivation, too. ;) I diagree with you on th e religion point. I'm "religious" and I have no low-self esteam problems. If anything quite the opposite, and I'm too driven for my own good :D
GothicDan 02-16-08, 02:30 PM	I diagree with you on th e religion point. I'm "religious" and I have no low-self esteam problems. If anything quite the opposite, and I'm too driven for my own good Obviously anecdotal evidence isn't going to affect my hypothesis. :)
XHereticX 02-16-08, 02:30 PM	So, that's another way they're the same. :) I often consider religion a symptom of a low self-esteem and personal motivation, too. ;) I agree with you on the latter, one of Nietzsche's better ideas. I have always been a consequentialist anyway, and the Master/Slaver personality idea makes a lot of sense to me. However, religion can work in the latter sense as well. Replacing self-centered esteem with the idea that God holds you as his "special chosen" on earth, therefore restoring and even blossoming it more or less. Dan, your points are all centered around your personal experience in an area that can highly vary, so your hypothesis is highly subjective and really dosen't count for moot if your trying to make a larger point.
GothicDan 02-16-08, 02:31 PM	Well, that's SORT of how the Jews viewed God, via their Covenant with him. No wonder I didn't have a knee-jerk negative reaction when reading about Judaism as I do with some religions. Like Buddhism. The thought of the eradication of desire and ego is so appalling to me I can't even logically describe it. Dan, your points are all centered around your personal experience in an area that can highly vary, so your hypothesis is highly subjective and really dosen't count for moot if your trying to make a larger point. They're centered around my personal experience and a hell of a lot of research across a number of fields that I feel could very well provide insight on the subject. That being said, I'm making all of my larger points. :) I'm not trying to convince anyone (yet).
XHereticX 02-16-08, 02:36 PM	Well, that's SORT of how the Jews viewed God, via their Covenant with him. No wonder I didn't have a knee-jerk negative reaction when reading about Judaism as I do with some religions. Like Buddhism. The thought of the eradication of desire and ego is so appalling to me I can't even logically describe it. They're centered around my personal experience and a hell of a lot of research across a number of fields that I feel could very well provide insight on the subject. That being said, I'm making all of my larger points. :) I'm not trying to convince anyone (yet). Buddhism just disgusts me now. The idea of living a blank life marked by transcendancy make bile rise in my throat. Being in some ways a Utilitarian, I highly object to this form of though, which essentially maroons life's worth and purpose. As for the latter, research dosen't count for much in psycological if you don't have a wide range of experience to back it up. You must utilize both the priori AND the posteri to your full advantage.
GothicDan 02-16-08, 02:38 PM	Uh, actually, it was psychology I was referencing with the above anecdotal evidence comment. It's one of the KEY RULES of psychology that you ignore anecdotal evidence, and rely only upon careful experiments. :) It's an extension of the scientific method, really. Just because I measure gravity to be 9.8 once doesn't mean that it's an indication of a significant truth of the general system. You have to have careful experiments, thousands of times, across multiple environments and test groups, before you can put forth a proposition.
XHereticX 02-16-08, 02:40 PM	Uh, actually, it was psychology I was referencing with the above anecdotal evidence comment. It's one of the KEY RULES of psychology that you ignore anecdotal evidence, and rely only upon careful experiments. :) It's an extension of the scientific method, really. Just because I measure gravity to be 9.8 once doesn't mean that it's an indication of a significant truth of the general system. You have to have careful experiments, thousands of times, across multiple environments and test groups, before you can put forth a proposition. Being just a kid that hasen't even gotten his high school diploma, I have nothing to say... That is a highly objectivist perspective there, but I more or less agree with you. Except I am not a believer in the all-encompassing ability of science. Like Kant said (and I find Kantian metaphysics to be just genius), science only explains the phenomena of the universe which are simply reactions to the Neumora, the truth. I agree with the Objectivist idea that there is an absolute truth, but I disagree with the idea that humans are even remotely capable of finding it.
GothicDan 02-16-08, 02:42 PM	You have a good start, my boy. ;) Hm... Maybe I should nap before dinner. Also, I don't think science is all-encompassing - not yet, at least. Being as I view science as a way to ultimately explain EVERYTHING (including the intangibles - like Mathematics, for instance, which is often classified as a science), however, I think it's a noble goal to one day try to explain "non-scientific" things empirically. That's one of the reasons I'm doing my Discrete project on Mathematical Linguistics. Hidden Markov Chains, mmmm.
XHereticX 02-16-08, 02:47 PM	You have a good start, my boy. ;) Why thank you. I actually find it far easier to put my many thoughts in written verse. I am far, far, simpler when speaking.
Charles Phipps 02-16-08, 03:04 PM	I often consider religion a symptom of a low self-esteem and personal motivation, too. ;) I'd argue but despite being faithful, a lot of the worst members of my faith are people who think they're letting god do their talking for them but are actually just parroting what others tell them to do. However, I think that boils down to any community based structure that can be exploited. Now I'm anxious for the next article.
GothicDan 02-16-08, 03:06 PM	However, I think that boils down to any community based structure that can be exploited. Truth.
XHereticX 02-16-08, 05:36 PM	I'd argue but despite being faithful, a lot of the worst members of my faith are people who think they're letting god do their talking for them but are actually just parroting what others tell them to do. However, I think that boils down to any community based structure that can be exploited. Now I'm anxious for the next article. It's always a relief and a pleasure to see intelligent and thoughtful Christians who remain steadfast in their faith but open in their logic. If more people approached religion in a thoughful rather than blind manner, I might even start going to church again.
Charles Phipps 02-16-08, 05:40 PM	Thanks, though sometimes I come on too strong (just ask GD) I for one have one big complaint. Shifters are not Core! I mean, Eberron's most important race! ANIMAL-PEOPLE! http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/9233/normalmopklkotmklhgsl4.jpg
XHereticX 02-16-08, 05:46 PM	Aww kawaii:) That picture brings out the anime fanboy in me, looks like something from Chobits. Though Eberron does a horrible job of replicating that animated dramatic feel and makes D&D and anime/manga look bad. But that is just my opinion.
MarkusTay63 02-17-08, 12:44 AM	I prefer cat Girls to Bunny Girls. http://fc01.deviantart.com/fs20/i/2007/251/e/0/Samurai_cat_girl_by_tickledpinky.jpg
Dexter_Blacktyde 02-17-08, 08:05 AM	My eyes... oh, my eyes...! DB
Lord Karsus 02-17-08, 08:35 AM	Now I'm anxious for the next article. -Any clue when that is? There really should be a timeline, or something, a schedule, for all of this.
GothicDan 02-17-08, 11:43 AM	The above pictures are examples of the kind of anime I despise with an unholy, burning zeal.
Lord Karsus 02-17-08, 12:00 PM	The above pictures are examples of the kind of anime I despise with an unholy, burning zeal. -Half nude prepubescent anthropomorphic animal people? Yeah, I gotta agree.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-17-08, 08:56 PM	You have to have careful experiments, thousands of times, across multiple environments and test groups, before you can put forth a proposition. Actually, you can proposition someone without doing all that work.:P
GothicDan 02-17-08, 09:47 PM	I'm scandalized! ;)
Lord Karsus 02-18-08, 01:14 AM	-...Wow.
Lord Karsus 02-22-08, 01:17 PM	-Did anyone realize that there is a second cartoon? There's one with a Beholder. I never realized that it was there.
GothicDan 02-22-08, 01:29 PM	I did. Terrible.
Lord Karsus 02-22-08, 01:31 PM	-I didn't know Beholders jive-talked.
GothicDan 02-22-08, 01:38 PM	They also know extensive Ebonics.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-22-08, 07:09 PM	I've watched both cartoons myself. Ick. That is time I will never get back.
GothicDan 02-22-08, 09:04 PM	You poor woman. :(
johnkretzer 02-22-08, 11:46 PM	Still, you changed a portion of the Realms. Good for you. Nah not really...he just set up to be a little more platable for some Realms fan. I guess on of things you missed in the preview books was a major move not to have any real world gods in D&D anymore thus Tyr has to go bye-bye...as to -Mielikki -Loviator -Silvanus -They already got rid of Helm who was just similar to a real world god -Sharess might be on the chopping block since she is really Bast -The Mulhondri/ Unther pantheon including Hoar Sorry but I will never agree to less is better in regards to flavor. Also sorry but this refers to something pages back...I am trying to stay away from the forums and if it wasn't for a snowstorm I would have. Anyway it is a nice thread Charles it is the best one dealing wit 4th edition. Anyway I am going back into lurk mode....
Lord Karsus 02-23-08, 12:45 AM	-I just can't believe that I never realized there was a Beholder cartoon. And, that's been there since...October? Since before the other one!
MarkusTay63 02-23-08, 02:41 PM	First I'm seeing it too - considering no one started a thread about it, I think a lot of people missed it. It was just as bad/good as the other one. I wonder if Hasbro is planning a new D&D cartoon - it wouldn't be the first time (http://www.tfarchive.com/creative/showentry.php?s=584).
Lord Karsus 02-23-08, 04:49 PM	I wonder if Hasbro is planning a new D&D cartoon - it wouldn't be the first time (http://www.tfarchive.com/creative/showentry.php?s=584). -I'd prefer cartoons to the other 4e promo things they have.
Dexter_Blacktyde 02-23-08, 04:49 PM	First I'm seeing it too - considering no one started a thread about it, I think a lot of people missed it. Hey, back in the day we had a very entertaining "blown waaayyy out of proportion" thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=946602) about it. DB
MarkusTay63 02-24-08, 02:15 AM	Ahhh... okay... I don't venture outside of the FR forums much... there are 'strangers' out there... :hides: ;) :P
Charles Phipps 02-24-08, 02:41 AM	Wow, the body count is high for 4E. :-) poor Anchorman. 1373 DR (Year of the Rogue Dragons) The ancient red dragon Hoondarrh, "the Red Rage of Mintarn," vents his fury on the city of Callidyrr, setting much of the city ablaze. The Great Druid, Robyn Kendrick, emerges from Feywild with a circle of powerful druids. She quickly teleports to Callidyrr with her entourage and drives away the Red Rage. -- High King Keane later succumbs to grievous wounds suffered while defending the city. Attempts to resurrect the High King are fruitless. BTW, a moment of silence for Keane. Keane showed up in our games once while he was courting Robyn's Daughter Alicia (whom slept with The_Mess' Northman Barbarian, Musim). He was an awkward but lovable lad. He shall be missed. So; Sylune, Azoun, Tanalasta, and now Keane. Man, Red Dragons are just the NPC slayer aren't they?
MarkusTay63 02-24-08, 12:26 PM	I heard they plan on using a Green Dragon for a few of them, just to 'mix it up' a bit. :rolleyes:
Lord Karsus 02-24-08, 12:49 PM	I heard they plan on using a Green Dragon for a few of them, just to 'mix it up' a bit. -Both Venoms have killed quite a few individuals. So; Sylune, Azoun, Tanalasta, and now Keane. Man, Red Dragons are just the NPC slayer aren't they? -Added in, of course, are all of the minor NPCs that no one really cares much about, or knows.
Soltares 02-24-08, 07:38 PM	-Added in, of course, are all of the minor NPCs that no one really cares much about, or knows. Alas, poor dude-who-was-holding-the-reins-to-Azoun's-horse, we hardly knew ye!
Lord Karsus 02-24-08, 08:03 PM	Alas, poor dude-who-was-holding-the-reins-to-Azoun's-horse, we hardly knew ye! -Cormyrian Farmer with Pitchfork #2 knew him well. They were drinking buddies...:(
MarkusTay63 02-26-08, 02:05 AM	Until they got in a fight over Serving Wench w/nose piercing... I heard she died while fleeing the dragon... she fell in the river and couldn't swim. Ohhh... the inhumanity of it all. Spellplagues, Dragonflights, Falling Stars... just staying alive in FR has become a full-time job. :(
Lord Karsus 02-26-08, 02:13 AM	-Dūdonahorz, hopefully, will survive.
MarkusTay63 02-26-08, 12:31 PM	He goes on to become a Chosen of Kelemvor in 4e. Isn't that a happy thought? :cloud9:
Lord Karsus 02-26-08, 12:34 PM	-If Chosen exist. Yes.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-27-08, 12:13 PM	Spellplagues, Dragonflights, Falling Stars... just staying alive in FR has become a full-time job. :( Tell me about it!
Lord Karsus 02-27-08, 12:27 PM	Spellplagues, Dragonflights, Falling Stars... just staying alive in FR has become a full-time job. :( -Don't forget planar rifts destroying entire cities, planar rifts destroying entire continents, and invading aberrations.
Charles Phipps 02-28-08, 12:10 AM	I'm going to review the new article now.
Charles Phipps 02-28-08, 05:36 PM	Countdown to the Realms III Part I of my Review Countdown to the Realms Spellplague: The Wailing Years by Brian James 02/27/2008 Dragon Features Archive Excerpt from the journal of Arleenaya Kithmaer, First Magistrati of the House of the High One Ascendant, Year of Blue Fire (1385 DR) "Reaching out northwest from beyond the horizon's rim, I beheld a sight which was at once horrifying as it was beautiful; a stormlike catastrophe rolling across the sky, which seemed to be ablaze with blue fire. Frozen in stupefying awe, I witnessed the cerulean thunderhead crash into the mighty Lhairghal, throwing pillars of azure fire skyward to snatch at Selūne's calming light. Selūne, my gods! The surface of the moon, long presented to us mortals as a barren landscape of craters and lifeless valleys, now revealed to me majestic mountains and sprawling seas; itself alight with similar cobalt radiance. A nearby exclamation from the Magehound returned my attention earthward to witness a shimmering wall of sapphire flame racing down Mhair Pass. Five breaths longer and the storm would crash into the battlement upon which I stood with a handful of loomwardens. I recall hastily whispered prayers to Azuth, a moment of unqualified stillness, and then nothing." A direct description of the Spell Plague as pretty much a swarm of magical locusts or a storm of living blue energy. Personally, I don't much care for this version. I think a madness afflicting most wizards on the Realms and "Magic Gone wild" is more than enough for this. I also wonder how the death of any goddess, even Mystra, could re-arrange the Planes. As dusk fell over the Shining South on the final day of Uktar in the Year of Blue Fire (1385 DR), a menacing storm began forming over the Mhair Jungles west of Halruaa. Beyond its massive size, the storm was particularly notable for the ribbons of blue flame that seemed to writhe and flow among its formations. In the mountains near Lhair in western Halruaa, dumbfounded priests watched in absolute silence, unable to comprehend the terrible events unfolding on the horizon. What the clerics of Azuth could not possibly fathom was that three score or more similar storms sprang up all across Toril; born instantly upon the assassination of Mystra in her heavenly dominion. Arleenaya Kithmaer and four nearby priests were teleported to safety by a quick-thinking magehound. The nation of Halruaa, however, would suffer horribly that ill-fated night. The three great mountain ranges that oft protected the nation from external invasion actually made it difficult for many Halruaans to escape the uncontrolled wild magic unleashed across the countryside. Halruaa today is best known as a magical wasteland; it is also the birthplace of the roving mercenary bands known as the Five Companies. This is the destruction of the Nation of Halruaa and I like that they're going with something a little more dramatic than 'every single spell in the country goes off simultaneously.' That's pretty much just a series of tactical nuclear warheads going off while this is much more like a plague. It allows a lot of survivors from the Halruaa states to get away. It reminds me of when White Wolf arbitrarilly killed off all the members of the Tremere Antribu and most of the Ravnos clan. The implication being that your characters were killed by writer fiat. It was stupid then and stupid now. I'm glad that they've left some room for Halruaa survivors, even though the devastation is different in my games. The cerulean storm and its aftereffects would become known in later days as the Spellplague. Despite its name, the Spellplague was no mere magical affliction. For nearly ten years the plague raged on and on in ever-widening spirals, irrevocably altering whole regions while leaving others completely unscathed. Whole countries vanished in earthquakes, fires, and windstorms, inexplicably replaced with peoples and lands from a world beyond our own. Even the starry constellations in the Sea of Night seemingly rearranged themselves in the heavens above. Scholars in later years would name this decade of chaos and upheaval the Wailing Years, or simply the Plague Years. For more details on the Spellplague and the secondary catastrophes that followed in its wake, check out the Countdown to the Realms preview article Magic in the Forgotten Realms. This is just more description of how utterly :censored: the Forgotten Realms are by the Spell Plague. Really, I tend to think that they should have come up with multiple reasons than just the single far reaching one. The Spell Plague as a magical plague works fine and even leaving natural disasters works. It's less so that it moves entire continents between worlds and other ridiculousness. To quote a friend who summarized Tolkien Age Cycles "Once everything was awesome, now everything is :censored:." The Wailing Years In game terms, the Spellplague represents the definitive event for transitioning the setting from one rules system to the next, and the loss of the Weave will have a profound effect on arcane spellcasters in your campaign. Though a small percentage of mages are driven to madness at the outset of the Spellplague, it's recommended you spare your players from this ignoble fate. Instead, wizards and other arcane spellcasters find that their magic has gone wild or departed altogether. In effect, all of Abeir-Toril is blanketed by a massive zone of wild magic. Refer to the 3rd Edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (page 55) for Table 2–1 of Wild Magic Effects. As the Weave unravels throughout the month of Nightal in the Year of Blue Fire, these wild magic zones are quickly replaced with dead magic zones until one day arcane magic ceases to function altogether. Actually, this is bizarrely what happened in my campaign before the details of what the Spell Plague came out is. The Wailing Years are currently what assails our PCs. I had every wizard, including Elminster and Khelben amongst other luminaries reduced to 1st Level Adventurers or required them to go totally insane. This actually made the Wailing Years very interesting for our game as so far it's become a race to protect the few remaining spell casters in the world and discover new sources of power for magic. So this hopefully will get a supplement at some point. Oh and as a note, we're once more calling it Abeir-Toril, so typo on your part Brian! DMs may wish to take advantage of the Wailing Years to run a low magic/melee-centric campaign using rules or concepts from sourcebooks such as Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords or Iron Heroes. Otherwise it may be wise to simply move your campaign forward to the Year of Silent Death (1395 DR) or beyond, where direct effects of the Spellplague have largely subsided and most spellcasters have once again gained mastery of their magic. See the section below on the Vilhon Reach for a description of a functioning time portal you may wish to use for this purpose. Eh, I'm not a man who moves lightly. The One Hundred Year Darkness (as I call it in my games) is a perfect time to do flashbacks too and sounds like a great adventuring period. Elves, Dwarves, and older humans can certainly do plenty of adventures during it. It seems like a great period for conflict like the Last War. Of course, with our luck, we'll never get any cool supplements on it. Included below is a timeline of key events that occurred during the Wailing Years, which may be useful to a transitional campaign set in the kingdom of Cormyr or the Vilhon Reach. Following the timeline is a brief update of these two regions, including sample adventure hooks. This I've found useful and less than useful in certain places. For the most part, I don't use the Shining South so I could honestly care less. The great irony is the parts that I use the most are Halruaa, Unther, and Mulhorand. So, it's like they threw the parts I cared about out while keeping the parts I could care less about. Sorry Brian, but its true. Timeline 1385 DR (Year of Blue Fire) The Spellplague: An unthinkable catastrophe ensues when Cyric, aided and abetted by Shar, murders Mystra in Dweomerheart. The plane itself disintegrates at once, destroying Savras and sending the gods Azuth and Velsharoon reeling into the endless Astral Sea. Without Mystra to govern the Weave, magic bursts its bonds all across Toril and the surrounding planes and runs wild. In Faerūn, this event is known as the Spellplague. Thousands of mages are driven insane or destroyed, and the very substance of the world becomes mutable beneath veils of azure fire that dance across the skies by night or by day. This is just a re-stating of the events in Grand History of the Realms. Savras' Death is tragic but honestly I never really used him that much. Alaundo was the Chosen of OGHMA in my games while Azuth's defeating Savras was the key part of his divinity. If Savras had ever returned in my ganes, then he'd almost certainly lose his power. Of course, The_Mess introduced him in his game and completely undermined that belief of mine but that's the dangers of a Shared DMing table. :-) But yes, this is certainly one way of getting rid of the overabundance of wizards in the Realms. My own thread on my world shows that I have a much smaller amount of mages in my Abeir-Toril to begin with. This just means that the main universe is now closer to my own version if they keep the numbers of mages and their levels somewhat lower than before. * Where once stood the realm of Sespech, the Golden Plains, and the Nagalands, the Spellplague reveals a surreal landscape breathtaking in its beauty, grandeur, and changeability. For the next century, active Spellplague cavorts on this territory called the Changing Lands, contorting terrain, natural law, and the flesh of any creature that dares enter. Baron Aldorn "Foesmasher" Thuragar, apparently, isn't going to be leaving much of a legacy for the Forgotten Realms 4E. Pretty much, the Wailing Times leaves this region to be little different than Pandemonium. For all intents and purposes, it's annihilated and that's tragic. I think the biggest problem I'm seeing with 4E so far is the off-hand storytelling. Instead of leaving a lot of blank spaces to fill in later, they're pretty much using the Spell Plague as a genocide solution. To simplify the Realms, extraneous realms are given the Sodom and Gammora treatment. * Cormyr is struck hard, but not so violently as many other nations. Roughly one third of all Wizards of War are slain, driven mad, or simply have gone missing in the year following Mystra's death. That's actually generous as to what happened in my games. I had it that there were only 13 War Wizards left after the Spell Plague with Vangerdahast (coming out of retirement), Laspeera, and Caladnei plus ten guys who ended up being mostly killed fighting the 616 version of Sarevok. But then again, I was using Dragonlance's Dragons of Summer Flame as a model where the Towers of High Sorcery had their entire order almost completely wiped out by Chaos and the loss of magic. Bizarrely, the two match up fairly well but this is just common sources. 1386 DR (Year of the Halfling's Lament) A portion of Toril's sibling world Abeir violently exchanges places with large sections of Chondath and western Chessenta. Displaced genasi from the Abeiran land of Shyr quickly set about creating a kingdom of their own. This is something that I do object to and rather violently. I couldn't care less about non-Realms worlds. This is like suddenly dumping the Suel Empire or Barovia in the middle of the Forgotten Realms, except worse because those are at least recognizable to most long-time D&D fans. We don't need to learn about more "new and exotic" realms when there's plenty of ones that are underdetailed to begin with. * The former expanse of the Sea of Fallen Stars is altered when wide portions of the landscape collapse into the Underdark. When the sea level reaches its new equilibrium, the average drop in water level measured nearly 50 feet. The waters of the Vilhon Reach were similarly drained, uncovering several drowned ruins from ancient Jhaamdath. I'm reminded of the Cataclysm's description in Dragons of Winter's Night where the Heroes of the Lance arrive at a town that used to be a major shipping port only to find it in the middle of the Desert. This helps me visualize the calamity and the suffering plus the poverty that will drastically change the climate and environment of the region. Honestly, it's not a pretty picture even if I never much cared for these characters. Will this become a Wild West set of Ghost towns? What is the adventuring "hook" that makes this place more interesting? I'm not sure if I get it. 1387 DR (Year of the Emerald Ermine) The Emerald Enclave begins sending agents throughout the Vilhon Wilds to counter the effects of the Spellplague. As years became decades, their original mission is slowly perverted from one of respect for and guardianship of nature to a vain struggle against forces far beyond their control. I never really got much use out of the Emerald Enclave to be perfectly honest. They seemed to be "generic druids" for the most part. I'm not sure if we're really going to get any new use of this one either (at least until we get a "Lords of Light" supplement detailing the various Harper groups and so on). Still, I like that they're now better established for villain potential. * The Prismatic Mountains, a beautiful Abeiran mountain range seeming to be made entirely of dense multicolored glass, appears between the Desertmouth Mountains and the Thunderpeaks, closing off Shadow Gap and halting overland trade along the Northride between New Tilverton and Shadowdale. Mountains of glass....okay. I'm actually rather fond of when the Realms is described as having random weird things for the PCs to encounter. I think they tend to spice up other locations that would otherwise be described as "Mountains, trees, roads, forrest....ooo look a village." 1388 DR (Year of the Tanarukka) Bullywugs tribes from the Farsea Marshes begin harrying Zhentarim forces operating throughout the Tunlands, diminishing Black Network activities in the region. The Zhentariam vs. Bullywugs. Wow, that's a confrontation of epic proportions *Sarcasm.* I can only seem that Fzoul either doesn't care or the Zhents are recovering because of the damage done to their wizards by the Spell Plague because the Bullywugs are below Kobolds for "enemies you can't take seriously." (Oh BTW, Kobolds are still chihuhuas in my games) * Some members of Cormyr's remaining War Wizards, having lost access to the Art, begin cross-training with the Purple Dragons in swordplay and martial defense. In years to come these swordmages will prove invaluable against neighboring aggression in the region. While I have no real objection to this, wouldn't the loss of the Art mean that most of these guys don't have any magic whatsoever? How exactly would they become, effectively, Bladesingers? Swordmages are more or less going to be a Human Available class of Bladesinger for 4E and it confuses me to have something like this. Of course, I never quite reconciled how Bladesingers became available for Half-Elves in the Realms either ;-) 1389 DR (Year of the Forgiven Foes) A strangely angular black monolith is sometimes visible breaking above the waves along Cormyr's coast, never in the same place twice. Ah, completely random mysteriousness. My favorite. ;-) 1390 DR (Year of the Walking Man) Dowager Dragon Queen, Filfaeril Selazair Obarskyr, dies. Alusair attends the state funeral, argues briefly and privately with her nephew the king, and disappears altogether from Court. Rumors persist of her riding through the frontiers and borderlands, but no confirmed reports of her appearance exist following the burial of Filfaeril. FYI- the Rest of the Article doesn't matter to me as much as this single paragraph. A moment of silence for Filfaeril or "Queen Fee." Her death strikes me even more harshly than the loss of High King-Consort Keane (who never ruled in our games but merely advised). Filfaeril was the Grand Dame of the Realms and one of the most beautiful women in the whole of the land, embodying grace that only the Seven Sisters could match. Quite a few player characters lost their heart to her and she was briefly the host for Sune, who believed her the loveliest of her creations. The timeline is screwing my math up, along with the fact that I've never been good at keeping dates vs. my own timeline. Is it likely she died of natural causes here or is foul play something that might have occurred? Somehow it's difficult reconcile the vibrant woman of Elminster's Daughter with someone who passes onward into the wee ends of twilight. Next, I'd like to personally thank Brian James for the "Conan ending" for Regent Alusair where there's a certain element of mystery as to what happened to her. With no body, there's no death in my opinion and I certainly think its possible that Vangerdahast might have put her into sleep just like the Heroes of Cormyr were put into sleep for the protection of the Realm. I'm disappointed that Caladnei isn't mentioned as leaving with her but it might be interesting to see what happens to her. Maybe she becomes Azoun V's consort in a May-December type romance or perhaps merely becomes the Laspeera to the Court. We could see some fun novels with her tut-tuting like Vangerdahast around Azoun V.
Lord Karsus 02-28-08, 05:54 PM	Oh and as a note, we're once more calling it Abeir-Toril, so typo on your part Brian! -'Abeir' and 'Toril' are once more 'united' (not that they ever weren't, in my book), thus we can call it that, now.
Charles Phipps 02-28-08, 05:57 PM	-'Abeir' and 'Toril' are once more 'united' (not that they ever weren't, in my book), thus we can call it that, now. I think my point was they hadn't united by that point unless you want to claim that it occured at the start of the Spell Plague.
Lord Karsus 02-28-08, 06:14 PM	I think my point was they hadn't united by that point unless you want to claim that it occured at the start of the Spell Plague. -Ah, gotcha. The first mention of 'swapping' takes place in 1386 DR.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-28-08, 06:34 PM	This is something that I do object to and rather violently. I couldn't care less about non-Realms worlds. This is like suddenly dumping the Suel Empire or Barovia in the middle of the Forgotten Realms, except worse because those are at least recognizable to most long-time D&D fans. We don't need to learn about more "new and exotic" realms when there's plenty of ones that are underdetailed to begin with. I totally agree. The timeline is screwing my math up, along with the fact that I've never been good at keeping dates vs. my own timeline. Is it likely she died of natural causes here or is foul play something that might have occurred? Somehow it's difficult reconcile the vibrant woman of Elminster's Daughter with someone who passes onward into the wee ends of twilight. It is difficult to reconcile, but I can attest from personal experience that such things do happen. It's not hard for me to believe. Of course, that doesn't mean I'm not sad about it.:(
Charles Phipps 02-28-08, 06:49 PM	Countdown to the Realms Part III Part 2 of my Review 1391 DR (Year of the Wrathful Eye) The dark druid Zalaznar Crinios leads a great host of fell beasts to sack the forest community of Gurnth. Nobanion calls his followers to his side at Machran Spire in an effort to counter the pending invasion. Okay dokey. Nothing really to say here other than Nobanion is being set up as less Aslan and more "random god of nature." That, IMHO, just makes the character to be less interesting. Nobanion should be up on Mount Celestia with Torm and his brothers. 1392 DR (Year of the Scroll) The Dragon Coast city of Pros petitions the Crown to become a vassal-state of Cormyr in order to protect it from the ravages of the Spellplague. Azoun V reluctantly accepts. By year's end, Pros' sister-town of Ilipur joins the Forest Kingdom as well. Unfortunately the receding waters of the Sea of Fallen Stars have spelled ruin for these small trading towns. Okay, I'm a little confused then for what exactly this means for *finger wag* Imperial Cormyr. So Cormyr gets a couple of new cities but both of them suck? Wow, what a tremendous change for the land that justifies them referring to as an Empire. It's like Edward calling it the British Empire for having Wales. No offense to any Welsh out there. 1393 DR (Year of the Ring) Sembian investors begin buying up land in the southern Dales. Concerned, Azoun V issues a formal objection to the Dale's Council in Archendale but the King's emissary is rebuffed. No offense, but haven't the Sembians been doing this since time began? The Sembians cannot buy up land in the Dales because they would require people to work it and if they did, then they become Dalelanders. There's not the necessary infrastructure to transform the Dales into a part of Sembia. Also, you'd think the Shades would learn better than to mess with the Zhents. * Spellscarred beings and pilgrims hoping to obtain a spellscar begin journeying to the Changing Lands in large numbers. They are welcomed in Ormpetarr by the Order of Blue Fire. Okay, that's just insane. Seriously, there's Mutants in the world ala The X-men and the reaction of people on the Forgotten Realms is they start pretty much rolling around in toxic-waste in the hopes of getting powers. Reminds me of how Adam West got lymphoma on Family Guy. 1394 DR (Year of Deaths Unmourned) Led by the increasingly mad human-turned-eladrin Shadowmoon Crystalembers, the Grand Cabal of the Emerald Enclave begins attempting -- often by violent means -- to stem the tide of spellscarred pilgrims that pass through Turmish. Question, is this a human turned Celestial Eldarin or a human turned into an Elf? Cause, either way, he's just a guy whose an eco-terrorist. * Years of straining with their conflicted Sembian and Cormyrean identities, and struggling against the rule of Netheril, culminates in the annexation of the border city of Daerlun into the Forest Kingdom. Good for Cormyr. I like it when they hand the Sembians a black-eye. I'm more interested in the possibilities that the Netherese are unable to manage to hold on against the Cormyr. If they lost all of their magical powers as well, that removes one of my major complaints about their overpowered nature for the setting. 1395 DR (Year of Silent Death) Sakkors, the Netherese floating enclave not seen since the days before the Spellplague, makes a reappearance over Daerlun in the dead of night. The following morning civil unrest breaks out throughout the city. Azoun V sends elite swordmages to restore order in the city. Again, I really enjoy the fact the Cormyr seem to be able to fight back against the Netherese on their own terms. Tone and Feel The 4th Edition Realms are shifting away from a "Renaissance" feel to a more contemporary higher fantasy environment. If you can imagine playing D&D in a world that looks like the cover of a Yes album, you're getting close. Yeah, I needed to Google it, too. The Forgotten Realms were Renaissance? I thought they were Early Dark Ages. Yes Album Covers http://www.bgsu.edu/cconline/rickert_salvo/images/edge.jpg http://yesworld.com/gallery/images/albums/Relayer.jpg http://connollyco.com/discography/starcastle/starcastle_hi.jpg And call me crazy, but...that isn't very impressive. Maybe the last one. * For visuals, go visit www.rogerdean.com. High fantasy doesn't mean that the Realms are turning into a magical steampunk setting. Eberron already has elemental-powered airships and trains, and that is not the direction set for the Realms. Instead, the landscape itself shall be spectacular, indescribable, striking, and magical. Sample Roger Dean Art http://www.rogerdean.com/images/FlightsOfIcarus600.jpg So, a lot of floating islands? Someone been playing Skies of Arcadia? Cause, if they have, they should remember it wasn't the fact the islands were flying that made them to be cool. Of course each region will maintain its own distinctive flavor. We don't think that Waterdeep belongs on a floating earthmote or that the Dalelands needs all its farmland replaced with spiky stone towers, but we want some of that element of the incredible to be a part of almost every piece of the Realms your characters visit. I actually agree with this point, though one must make the mundane common in certain areas or it loses all impact. Vilhon Reach The lands of the Vilhon Reach were affected greatly by the merging of Abeir with Toril. The waters of the Reach itself were partially drained during the Spellplague, revealing several drowned Cities of the Sword from ancient Jhaamdath. The once welcoming and cosmopolitan folk of Turmish have grown increasingly xenophobic throughout the Wailing Years. Akanūl, formerly the lands of Chondath, are now populated by genasi from the Abeiran land of Shyr, a region that will barely survive its first contact with the Abolethic Sovereignty some years later. You know, I honestly don't remember a single damn thing about Jhaamdath. Netheril and Imaskari are the only two Ancient Empires (along with Mulhorand) plus the Kingdom of the Stag that I have any recollection of. I do, however, resent the transformation of the Turmish into xenophobes since they have the Friendliest Women in the Realms according to my players. (One of those weird memes that pops up with players). I have Daggerdale for suspicious, distrusting, and unpleasant people (I know it's supposed to be a wonderful place under Randal Morn. Personally, my players have actively rejected that interpretation and hope it burns to the ground, they treat it only slightly more pleasantly than Hillasfar). Since the Year of Blue Fire, civilization has been slow to return to the wilder Spellplague-morphed regions. The notorious Changing Lands lie close by, contorting terrain, natural law, and the flesh of any creature that dares enter. The Vilhon Reach is a great example of the new "Tone and Feel" of the setting in action, making it a great region to explore some of the more fantastic locales on Faerūn. Uhhhh, what's in the Vihlon Reach that I should care about though? You've talked a lot about destruction but I see no reason to adventure there. A bunch of no longer friendly Turmish women, some new ruins of a not-particularly noteworthy Empire and some Chaos Ridden Hellholes. Okay. So? What's my motivation? *starts to evaluate* * ANDRIO'S GATE: The Reach happens to contain one of Toril's few functioning time gates; a useful tool for bringing characters forward beyond the Wailing Years (1385 DR to 1395 DR) to a more stable time period for campaign play. The time gate is located within Mount Andrus, a volcanic peak within the Orsraun Mountains on Turmish's western frontier. There the time gate has survived millennia despite several volcanic eruptions, shielded from the monstrous heat and the effects of the Spellplague by powerful, and some would say divine, wards. Adrio's Gate is activated by speaking the name of a year as given in the Roll of Years then stepping through the gate's event horizon. Good good, ripping off City on the Edge of Forever is definitely a good start. I am very sincere because it's one of the greatest sources of adventure hooks there could possibly be. I confess, I'm a little concerned about the ease of using it but I'll just assume that knowing about it a major thing in itself. FYI---Best Stark Trek episode, ever. This includes all subsequent iterations. Turmish Turmish suffered much less than Chondath, but the partial draining of the Sea of Fallen Stars did leave its busy port at Alaghōn high and dry. Today, this realm of increasingly competitive and desperate merchant costers is also a through-route for fanatics on spellscar pilgrimages to the Changing Lands. The once welcoming and cosmopolitan Turmishans have grown increasingly xenophobic, and they are guarded and suspicious of strangers, even though they remain dependent on outside trade. Yeah, I got that earlier. Also, how xenophobic are we talking here? Spitting on outlanders, murdering them in their beds, cheating them, or just a lot of racial slurs? I mean, Calisham is xenophobic but that's just elitism on their part. I could run this place as Zamora from Conan but that's not really supported in the text. North and west of Turmish beyond the Orsraun and Alaoreum Mountains stretches the forested realm of Gulthandor, ruled by a powerful and enigmatic druid in lion's form its followers name Nobanion. Gulthandor has no ties with the largely disbanded organization once known as the Emerald Enclave. Ilighōn, once the island home of the Enclave, became part of mainland Turmish when the seas retreated in 1386 DR. Now the Emerald Enclave is disbanded? Well that sucks, instead of making a generic Druid organization into a more interesting one, they just destroyed it. Eberron actually SHOULD have been ripped off here. They did some great things with Druids in their setting. * YURGRIM'S DELVE: Alaghōn remains the capital of Turmish; the city's curious architecture is the result of the Chondathan humans building over existing structures left by a previous dwarven civilization. The dwarves also left an abandoned mine -- a maze of subterranean tunnels, vaults, and catacombs that have never been fully explored, or fully rid of monsters -- beneath the city streets. Few entrances to the Undercity remain, but adventurers continue to brave their dark reaches in search of plunder. A few ancient tomes make reference to a lich queen from Unther residing below the palace, yet most discount these accounts as wild tales of fiction. Okay, Yurgrim's Delve is a nice name for the place. It's evocative and there's a clean adventure hook here with a ready made dungeon. I give my stamp of approval to the place even if it's only going to confuse players more to have a nation you wholesale replaced have it's Lich Queen here. * PRIDE OF THE FIREMANE: Zalaznar Crinios (CE dark tree druid 20), has turned away from the teachings of Eldath to embrace Malar, who "rewarded" the High Druid by transforming him into a Dark Tree (Shining South p62). Zalaznar is gathering a great host of fell beasts to sack the forest community of Gurnth (village; population ~300). Nobanion is calling all able-bodied adventurers to his side at Machran Spire in an effort to counter the pending invasion. A nice adventure hook, not particularly world shattering but definitely something the players might want to become involved in. But I'd definitely run it, if not for the fact that I already did. So, nice job Brian. (Princess Mononoke meets the Seven Samurai was one of my best games actually). Nobanion Lord Firemane, Lord of Gulthandor Unaligned Exarch of Silvanus Seen as a great protector and guardian across the Vilhon Wilds, Nobanion (No-BAN-yun) appears as a great male lion of at least twice normal size. His coat gleams with the radiance of the sun, and his mane is incredibly thick and luxurious. Sometimes the Lion God's mane ignites in a nimbus of amber and golden fire, the origin of his title "Lord Firemane." At will he can sprout the wings of a gigantic eagle. Overall, I don't really think this adds anything to Nobanion's character arc. What made Nobanion interesting as opposed to essentially being a random "Animal Lord" like the kind found in the Beastlands was the fact that he was Lawful Good. I think they should have expanded on that element and made Nobanion fully out into the Aslan figure instead of just retreating him into his Wilderness roots here that only seem to make him "less" if you honestly ask me. Frankly, it's also clear that Nobanion is no longer lawful good as well. This is one of my biggest problems with 4E so far, bizarrely. It's one thing to kill Mystra and Helm but keep their characters but making Nobanion Unaligned is like turning Tyr into a LN god. It destroys his characterization. Nobanion's "Downgrading" to Archangel did not catch me by surprise, either. But I'm shocked and stunned by making him a Neutral Deity. I'm going to ask what the Hell they were thinking on Candlekeep. Thought to be a favored champion of Silvanus, Nobanion now rules the forested realm of Gulthandor from the druidic stronghold of Cedarsproke. Beyond Gulthandor, Lord Firemane is also honored as the titular ruler of the wemic Tenpaw tribe of the Shining Plains. Clerics of Silvanus who honor the tenets of the King of Lions are known as Roaring Avengers. Someone really needs to clue people in that Wemics don't have main character potential anymore than Centaurs do. I never felt that Nobanion's interesting qualities were tied to his patronage of a people that are pretty much a bunch of fuzzy primitives in one area of the world. Even Ubtao has the Godzilla thing going for him. Now they've removed his LG nature to make him MORE the Wemic god. Exarchs The exarchs are often called demigods or heroes, and many are ascended mortal servants of greater gods, brought up from the world to serve as agents of their divine masters. Many, but not all, attract worshipers of their own, and they have some ability to grant spells, but are more often simply conduits from the mortal world to the attention of the higher gods. For example, the druids of Gulthandor pay homage to the Lion God, but in reality the character's divine spells are being granted by Nobanion's patron, Silvanus. Unlike true deities, exarchs are not bound to live in Astral Dominions with their patrons. Like Nobanion, many choose to live on the Material Plane, more directly engaged in the lives of their mortal followers. Ah, great. Hero-Deities. You know, I never much cared for Hero-Deities. Partially, this is due to the fact that no one ever plays Hero-Deities straight. Elminster, Fzoul, and plenty of others could be Hero-deities but instead they're Chosen or simply heroes. Hence, there's no real history of them being important figures in the Religion and thus not really relevant for the gift of immortality. Exarchs, actually, seem to be a return to 1E Realms versions of individuals like Torm and other gods that were allowed to wander around the Prime Material Plane doing their various good and ill deeds. I can assume they're meant to also represent entities like the Lords of the Nine and other "semi-divine" figures. I have no real objections to this. Oddly enough, there's a Realms Precedent for this as well. We have Uthgar and his barbarian Tribal Totems that represent pretty clearly much of the "Patron Deity" and smaller deity version. I don't think this is responsible for things like the death of the Drow pantheon though since there's plenty of room for gods like Vhaeraun to be sponsored by Shar or Eli by Corellon in opposing Lolth's will. Finally, exarchs in D&D campaigns are fully intended to be defeatable by any epic-level PC strong enough to attempt it. Of course, immortal beings are not just sitting around waiting for epic-level adventurers to take their life. And should the PCs even succeed in such an endeavor, they'll surely have earned the wrath of the exarch's patron deity. Well, that would impress me more, except that the preview books for 4E have already stated that PATRON DEITIES *themselves* are supposed to be able to be defeatable by PCs unlike previous versions of the gods. I just hope the Exarchs don't get reduced below Demon Princes and similiar beings to become little more than unique monsters.
GothicDan 02-28-08, 07:51 PM	Overall, I don't really think this adds anything to Nobanion's character arc. What made Nobanion interesting as opposed to essentially being a random "Animal Lord" like the kind found in the Beastlands was the fact that he was Lawful Good. I think they should have expanded on that element and made Nobanion fully out into the Aslan figure instead of just retreating him into his Wilderness roots here that only seem to make him "less" if you honestly ask me. Frankly, it's also clear that Nobanion is no longer lawful good as well. This is one of my biggest problems with 4E so far, bizarrely. It's one thing to kill Mystra and Helm but keep their characters but making Nobanion Unaligned is like turning Tyr into a LN god. It destroys his characterization. Nobanion's "Downgrading" to Archangel did not catch me by surprise, either. But I'm shocked and stunned by making him a Neutral Deity. I'm going to ask what the Hell they were thinking on Candlekeep. <3 Yeah. "Let's make Cyric TN and see what happens to his followers..." I think Nobanion was one of the more strongly, rigidly defined deities. He radiated LG as brightly as Torm or Tyr did. Shifting his alignment so drastically and turning him into a Druid... Makes him, well, the Cat Lord in my eyes.
Charles Phipps 02-28-08, 08:18 PM	Countdown to the Realms Part III Part III of my review Chondath A portion of Toril's sibling world, Abeir violently exchanged places with large sections of Chondath and western Chessenta during the Spellplague. The shattered ruins of cities lie broken at the bottom of ravines or thrust high atop stone spires, a constant draw to adventurers seeking troves of lost gold. The land today is characterized by crazed stone spires, cavernous ravines, and cliffs like petrified waves. Freefloating earthmotes host miniature forests, grasslands, lakes, and ever-replenishing waterfalls that mist the land below in draperies of mist. The wild landscape is perfectly suited to the tempestuous population of genasi that now claim the land as their own. Akanūl is the name of this genasi-ruled realm, and the capital city of Airspur holds the bulk of the nation's population. The waters of the Vilhon Reach were partially drained during the Spellplague, revealing several ruined Cities of the Sword, lost since the last days of Jhaamdath. Travelers to the region are few and far between. The few who travel through this treacherous floodplain return with madness or not at all. Okay, first Mulhorandi and now Chondath. :censored: Chondath? Dude, that's like removing Europe. Almost everyone has "Chondathan" in their language description and ethnicity. It's like having the United States but no England. Okay, fess up guys, did you have entries in the "Submit a Campaign Setting" you're mining now since Keith Baker won the contest? I had my own version, dammit, and I don't write novels in it! :-p The Chondalwood is a confusion of ravines and floating junglemotes, some sailing free, others webbed to lower jungle regions by thick vines and vegetation. The Chondalwood's vigor is impressive -- it grew in the Spellplague's wake instead of being diminished or being erased by it; witness its colonizing junglemotes spreading like airborne seeds north, south, and east, and west. The halflings and centaurs that once roamed these woods are now gone; replaced with spellscarred satyrs and feral elves who declare blood feud on any outsider entering the jungle's heartwood. Satyrs and Elves fighting each other is cool. I'm not sure what the benefit of kicking the Halflings and Centaurs out is, though. Also, wouldn't the Satyrs quickly die out since they don't have any women? * LESSER OF TWO EVILS: During a violent spring thunderstorm, a strange angular black monolith is spotted in the shallow waters off the Nun Coast near Reth. The following morning, kuo-toa harpooners flying strange winged morkoth attack the port city. The invaders are repelled by High Lady Glorganna and a detachment of Banite guerrillas. It remains unclear what the Abolethic Sovereignty was seeking in the city -- half of which lies in shattered ruin at the bottom of the Bay of Silvanus. Ah, more violence against campaign setting locations. :-) * MAGEDOOM: At the center of the Chondalwood is a ruin of ancient, toppled stone towers whose cellars are packed with gold coins. The elves of Wildhome steer well clear of it, citing terrible bodiless guardian creatures that ravage flesh, inspire madness, and target spellcasters in particular, igniting them like torches. Another nice adventure hook, though I'm wary of anything that can't easilly be statted out like "bodiless horror that can ignite people like torches." For me, I'm a lazy DM and prefer just referencing the MM. Changing Lands Where once stood the realm of Sespech, the Golden Plains, and the Nagalands, now stands a surreal landscape breathtaking in its beauty, grandeur, and changeability. Active Spellplague still cavorts on this territory, contorting terrain, natural law, and the flesh of any creature that dares enter. Earthmotes aplenty break up the sky in a strange parity with the fractured terrain below. Swaths of moving earth change with mercurial speed, and great ravines empty directly into the Underdark. Artist renditions that capture true glimpses of the place's exquisite loveliness and horrific strangeness can command large sums back in civilized lands. Uh huh, It's Pandemonium in the Realms. I get it. BTW, have you ever played in Pandemonium Brian? It's :censored: hard to DM the place and really difficult to give a justification for why anyone would want to go there. I'm not really seeing why anyone would want to venture into these locations. The Mournlands had hordes of treasure to loot and investigation to what caused it. * SCAR PILGRIMAGE: Plaguechanged and pilgrims hoping to obtain a spellscar sometimes journey here because it's the most prominent plagueland in Faerūn, as well as a great hold of the Order of Blue Fire. The stability of the plagueland's border provides an environment where the clever, ambitious, or insane can experiment with the Spellplague and its effects. As with most who brave plaguelands, few pilgrims who enter the Changing Land are ever seen again, but those who do return sometimes claim newfound power. Someone needs to get these people a copy of Warhammer. At least there, the forces of Chaos are genuinely scary. Really, I tend to think that most people realize that pure Chaos isn't terribly interesting by itself. The Order of Blue Fire seems to be important for some reason. Religion DC 30: The Order of Blue Fire appears as a benevolent service organization, but its public face is a front to a more sinister organization. It formed as a cult dedicated to the idea that the Spellplague was a holy cosmic event, the changing work of which should be encouraged to continue. The focal points of this belief system are inscrutable beings known as the Masters of Absolute Accord. The Masters can manipulate plaguelands and send visions to the spellscarred. Their guidance often leads to miraculous and terrible events that spread and nurture existing active pockets of Spellplague. Ah, here we find out why. Well it's an interesting enough organization but I think a lot of people certainly will be tired of the Fourth Edition Spell Plague event. Still, I am interested in who the Masters of Absolute Accord will prove to be in the end. Cyric? Shar (I hope not)? Someone new? But yes, kudos for having an Apocalypse Cult from all this. Motes After the plague of change, some elements of the physical world have gained a supernatural independence from certain natural laws. The most striking of these (to those unfamiliar with them) are motes. Really, I've got to say, they are very gung-ho about the Flying Real estate in 4E aren't they? No, I'm not exaggerrating. They've made an entire rule's addition just for the chance to have islands floating in the clouds like Jack and the Beanstalk. Now, I'm glad they've added it, I have had flying real-estate since the Cloud Giants but I'm curious what really is ON these islands that's attracting people? Giants? A classical answer? Dragons? Another one. Angels? Go for the Myth. Just curious what's so awesome about Gulliver's Travels' Laputa if you remove the University. I think that the Motes are an interesting thing along with the Prismatic Mountains and I appreciate the addition of Pandemonium on the Realms (even though I don't think it's nearly as interesting as the Nightmare lands in Ravenloft or....well, the Elemental Chaos that the players can visit anyway). I do think that the guys should have been focused much more on what player characetrs are supposed to *DO* here rather than it looking cool. Let me provide an Example Mount Doom http://www.tolkienforums.com/Mount_Doom.jpg Mount Doom is awesome, really. It's a volcano but it's also got a really nifty forge in it that Sauron used to make the One Ring. It's also filled with caves and all sorts of nasty creatures that Samwise could have encountered. Plus, there's the obvious plot arc that its the one place that you can destroy the One Ring. This is more like "and there's a huge volcano in the middle of the Dales now." Cormyr Now for an important part of the article because Cormyr is a place that I actually visit a lot. It's our home base along with the Dalelands and occasionally Neverwinter. Unlike the lands of the Vilhon Reach, the nation of Cormyr suffered little geological upheaval during the Spellplague Years. Instead the upheaval in the Forest Kingdom was largely political. Famine, economic hardship, and unrest among the peerage would be difficult for any ruling monarch, yet these challenges perhaps weighed more heavily upon the shoulders of young King Azoun V. Claiming the Dragon Throne in the Year of Three Streams Blooded (1384 DR), Azoun had merely thirteen winters behind him at his coronation and only sixteen months on the throne before the Spellplague sent the world spinning into chaos. Thankfully, the king surrounded himself with men and women of wise counsel, including the Caladnei, Mage Royal of Cormyr. Under his rule, the Forest Kingdom quickly recovered from the anarchy of the Wailing Years, and the young king went on to become a just, wise, and long-lived ruler. Okay, now we've got pretty much a biography of the most annoying infant that has ever walked the Realms. I like Azoun V, really. My player characters like the little brat even more because one of them is the kid's father rather than Rowan Cormaeril (oddly enough---it's Rowan's little brother). Caladnei is, unlike Alusair, definitely there with our heroes from the very beginning til end and you've got to wonder what Azoun V told his Aunt that :censored: her off so much that she actually abandoned a 13 year old to have the kingdom to himself. Neverthless, Azoun V is apparently getting treated as a better monarch than either his Aunt *OR* Azoun IV, which kinda bugs me. I was hoping we'd see Alusair get to handle all the craziness of Le Spell Plague. I do hope they make his son have some serious personality flaws because there's no drama otherwise. The Helmlands Formed during the Time of Troubles, this desolate land of howling winds and jagged rock was the site of Mystra's destruction at the hands of Helm in the Year of Shadows (1358 DR). In the months following its creation, locals named the site the Pits of Mystra, for the land was nothing but bubbling tar pits as far as the eye could see. Priests dedicated to the new Goddess of Magic cleansed the land of the fetid pits in later years, but the tear in the fabric of the Weave remained. Today a forest of towering redwoods has returned; the original was lost when Mystra's dying energy blasted the land like a million Shou cannons. In the wake of the Spellplague, the Helmlands have grown, spreading along the northern wall of the Stormhorns, stretching as far west as the foothills above Eveningstar. Wild magic still pervades the entire region, but unlike the Changing Lands, visitors may enter the Helmslands without fear of becoming spellscarred. That's a pretty :censored: huge Wasteland. Seriously man, that tears through a lot of territory and I'm not really sure if that provides anything more interesting for the region. An isolated monster-ridden wasteland is an isolated monster-ridden wasteland even if its just a slightly large one. * TEMPLE ACHERON: Once the blasted ruin of Castle Kilgrave, the imposing stronghold was rebuilt by priests of Bane following his apparent resurrection in the Year of Wild Magic (1372 DR). As the Lord of Strife himself had done during the Time of Troubles, the strifelords reshaped the ruins into an echo of Bane's Temple of the Suffering in the Barrens of Doom and Despair. Thirty-foot-high walls constructed of a seamless other-worldly material of black laced with green connect the windowless towers on four corners, and on the west side a towering 60-foot obelisk encloses a drawbridge set against the wall. Purple Dragon Knights stationed at Castle Crag patrol the eastern perimeter of the Helmslands daily, keeping a vigilant eye for any threats coming from Temple Acheron. Now this is more like it. Castle Acheron has a delightfully un-original but Tolkien-esque name. It positively reaks of evil and has clearly not been cleaned out by Harpers off-screen like my beloved Hellgate Keep was. It's also undetailed and a possible source for all manner of horrific villainies while cleaning up the relative lack of Banism in the area. Well done, Brian! Well done! Farsea Swamp This slowly growing swamp consists of two formerly separate marshes, Farsea and Tun. The swamp has mile after mile of muddy terrain swept with golden-green tall grasses broken by channels of bronze water. Most citizens of Cormyr see the wetlands as dark, forbidding places, where evil festers and foul creatures lurk in murky water to devour the unwary. While this image is largely true of the deadly Vast Swamp in eastern Cormyr, it is an incomplete and misleading portrayal of the Farsea Swamp. :rollseyes: The Swamp has been "slowly growing" for a hundred and twenty years at this point. Seriously, either its growing REALLLYYYY REALLY :censored: slowly or it's even more huge than the Helmlands at this point. Are we in Imperial Cormyr or not, because large portions of the Kingdom succumbing to Wilderness doesn't really fit my view of a thriving future-Empire. I have an idea, have them annex the Dales. Change nothing but now that the Dalelanaders have a foreign monarch. That's a chance that would be interesting *AND* create plotlines! * LEGACY OF THE BATRACHI: Amid the vast, fog-laced expanse of the Farsea Swamp rests the scattered ruins of a vanished civilization, not Netherese as many have speculated. Thick with poisonous insects and plague, few enough have glimpsed these ruins. Ornate buildings made of glass as strong as steel hint at a magical technology lost to the present day. Rumors have it that the bold can claim gold and strange secrets from the half-drowned basements, if they can but survive the swamp's pestilence and withstand the might of strange creatures set as guardians within the interior of the glassteel towers. Again, this is just my personal preference but I'm not really interested in another lost civilization. It's sort of like the discovery of a lost Assyrian city. That is totally, absolutely, awesome. However, in the context of the Forgotten Realms, my player characters really don't care when they have Netheril (Atlantis). If people discovered Atlantis with it's Hover-Technology, Genetic Engineering, and Magic Crystal Waver stuff like on Stargate, that would sorta trump a new Assyrian City. Plus, we have NEWLY lost civilizations like Chondath! :p Hullack Forest Dark and foreboding best describes the thick dense woods of the Hullack Forest. The Hullack is almost a primeval forest, with dark valleys and hidden vales that have gone unseen for decades. Ghostly creatures and odd monsters pepper the local folklore, and orcs and goblins are frequent visitors from the Thunder Peaks. In the years immediately preceding the Spellplague, large numbers of adventurers entered the forest seeking to clear it of monsters and explore its deeper regions. Thunderstone, a small town on the southern edge of Hullack Forest, was often used as a base of operations for such expeditions. These crown-sanctioned activities came to an abrupt end in the Year of the Wrathful Eye (1391 DR) when the Eldreth Veluuthra, a militant group of human-despising elves, claimed the forest as their own. A brief conflict with the elves ensued in the Year of Deaths Unmourned (1394 DR), but young King Azoun V later turned his full attention to more pressing threats from neighboring Netheril and Sembia. Okay, Cormyr is supposedly thriving and an Empire now. Yet, they get repulsed from a bunch of evils and have massive portions of its territory taken over by Swamp and Dust Plains. I'm seeing there's a disconnect between the designers again. I'm trying to be neutral here but how is the Cormyr government thriving and they have a terrorist organization having seized a portion of their territories? I'm glad the Eldreth Veluuthra (worst name ever) have not been forgotten but is Cormyr really the place for it? * REALM OF WAILING FOG: Sandwiched between the Hullack Forest and the Thunder Peaks, the Realm of Wailing Fog remains a land of desolate fens, ever-present mist, and eerie echoing calls. Even the Eldreth Veluuthra dare not explore the realm's long-ruined towers. Travelers to the region speak of a heavy feeling of "watchfulness" hanging over everything. Rumors persist that a coven of hags lives in the area, but these claims have never been substantiated. Well if it's going to be stolen wilderness, might as well add something cool. Again, I like this. Overall, my opinion is starting to be formed despite my desire to wait. I like most of 4th Edition but the Forgotten Realms were already a near-post Apocalyptic Realm of City States and wilderness. It's sort of like an argument I had with a friend of mine. About 7 years back Kyle: I don't see why we're bothering to bomb [insert country.] Charles: Because there's terrorists there. Kyle: Yes, but it's the frickin' [insert government of said nation]! Will it really make any difference if they're bombed back to the Stone Age? I was honestly hoping for some MORE civilized regions to develop during the Spell Plague as well. I've moved a little past random dungeon crawling and bandit fighting.
Lord Karsus 02-28-08, 08:38 PM	Okay, fess up guys, did you have entries in the "Submit a Campaign Setting" you're mining now since Keith Baker won the contest? I had my own version, dammit, and I don't write novels in it! :-p -For as paranoid and conspiracy-theory minded MT can be sometimes, he has a lot of compelling evidence that suggests that a great deal of the changes to the Forgotten Realms in 4e are very similar to events that took place in the Birthright setting...
Charles Phipps 02-28-08, 08:42 PM	Tragically, I was fond of the fact that Birthright was the most civilized continent in TSR's many settings. :p :)
Charles Phipps 02-28-08, 08:47 PM	Oh, and Exarchs only makes me think "Heirarchs" which makes me think. http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2005/20051107h.jpg
Involverri 02-28-08, 09:03 PM	Question, is this a human turned Celestial Eldarin or a human turned into an Elf? Cause, either way, he's just a guy whose an eco-terrorist. Shadowmoon Crystalembers is/was a level 22 hierophant druid of Silvanus. She was a human that fell in love with an elven man named Freiwin Crystalembers. When Freiwin's parents decided to return to Evermeet she accompanied them, hoping to see them to their destination as far as possible. During this trip the quartet were attacked by goblins and she died defending the elves. Later on Shadowmoon was raised in Evermeet by Amlauril I believe. She had watched her death while scrying and was so impressed by the selfless sacrifice that Shadowmoon was returned to life in the form of a wild elf. Before these events Shadowmoon was one of Silvanus' three chosen and a trusted friend of Shinthala, the previous Grand Cabal. The change in her temperament during the Wailing Years is... extreme to say the least. I don't understand how a wild elf becomes an eladrin and not an elf in 4e, but there you have it.
Charles Phipps 02-28-08, 09:08 PM	I am Realmslored. *bows head*
Dexter_Blacktyde 02-28-08, 10:28 PM	Oh boy. Of course the fans of the New And Improved Realms© will think I'm just another Old FR diehard, but I really tried to keep an open mind - which was actually quite easy because I've changed the Old Realms so much. In the first preview (which merely hinted at most of the changes) I liked some of the ideas presented therein and was curious how they'd be executed in detail. But reading this, I can't decide which attribute fits my overall impression more: uninspired or over the top. I haven't found a single evocative idea here. None. Nada. These guys make a living doing this, and they don't come up with a single idea that impresses me and stirs my curiosity? That's a feat in itself. Everything so far has been exceedingly blah, and I fail to see any inspiration. To compensate for the lack of it, we get a colorful freakshow of features, but nature gone completely haywire, wacky mountains of crystal, weird islands in the sky, a temple made of otherwordly material (plastic is the first material that comes to mind), the umpteenth sunken civilization (this time with towers of glass) and the introduction of Aslan don't exactly impress me - even less so when the designers explicitly remind me of Rodney Matthews' and Roger Dean's outlandish paintings. That's supposed to be the New Realms? And it's still supposed to be somewhat faithful to the Old Realms how? Now I got it. I took my sweet time, but eventually I got it: The Realms were too boring, too down-to-earth. Finally they're shiny and colorful and way out there enough to be taken seriously, because honestly, who needs political intrigue when he can have islands in the sky and - woot! - new dungeons that replace the countless old ones? Despite the things I didn't like - the goody two shoes orcs, the divine comedy, the lack of respect for established lore among other things - I was still looking forward to the FRCS, and I actually liked the idea of going the whole hog, deleting all the RW copies and inserting original material. I thought to myself, 'They're actually killing off the old setting by changing so friggin' much - I'd love to see the aces they have up their sleeves to make up for the loss of the old setting, because they've got to be impressive.' Judging by what I saw in the latest preview, there's little to look forward to. Absolutely nothing captured my imagination, and I was reminded of all those empty Bruckheimer blockbusters - good luck looking for anything genuinely interesting, but who cares, look at the eye candy! DB
Charles Phipps 02-28-08, 10:44 PM	Unless Orcs are suddenly Lawful Good aligned, I think they're now just LESS evil than before.
Dexter_Blacktyde 02-28-08, 10:58 PM	I don't know (yet), but first and foremost I was thinking of that hilarious snippet in AGHotR ;) DB
Charles Phipps 02-29-08, 01:52 AM	It is difficult to reconcile, but I can attest from personal experience that such things do happen. It's not hard for me to believe. Of course, that doesn't mean I'm not sad about it. Yes. Until stated otherwise, I'm chalking Queen Fee's death up to brain aneurysm. I think Nobanion was one of the more strongly, rigidly defined deities. He radiated LG as brightly as Torm or Tyr did. Shifting his alignment so drastically and turning him into a Druid... Makes him, well, the Cat Lord in my eyes. Bizarrely, it encourages me to want my version up that much quicker. I guess he won't be part of a new Triad after all. Oh boy. Of course the fans of the New And Improved Realms© will think I'm just another Old FR diehard, but I really tried to keep an open mind - which was actually quite easy because I've changed the Old Realms so much. In the first preview (which merely hinted at most of the changes) I liked some of the ideas presented therein and was curious how they'd be executed in detail. But reading this, I can't decide which attribute fits my overall impression more: uninspired or over the top. I have some things that I like about the new Forgotten Realms. Note, I'm lumping everything from 3rd Edition onwards to 4th. 1. The Death of Sylune: Her ability to move around and otherwise not be a ghost was undermining her tragic sacrifice. Honestly, I'm glad someone put a fork in her before she was overcooked completely. 2. Orcs as a viable PC race: I rather like the idea since I've never particularly treated Orcs as anything but cannon fodder in the Realms but a culture that just hates Elves, Hates Nature, and kills at the drop of a hat. In other words, Chaotic Dwarves. 3. The End of Thay-mart: It's got to be stated, this was the worst idea in the history of the Realms to me. 4. A return to magical magic: Forgotten Realms is not Eberron. Magic is something special in the world and it's important to see that it is given the appropriate fear/reverance when someone does it. Everyone and his brother a mage doesn't do that. 5. Netheril rather than Shade: I just it's not just a pseudonym and we have more than just a bigger and nastier version of the Shades. 6. Bigger Badder Balur's Gate: I like that it's now a Kingdom in its own right. 7. Imperial Cormyr: I like the idea of a larger and expansion minded Cormyr. I would have had them conquer the Dales though. 8. Resolving Plots: Shar vs. Mystra ended horribly for good but it ended along with Cyric vs. Mystra. Also, I liked the Mulhorandi and Unther war being resolved as well. We also get to lay to rest some old friends, which is bittersweet but not always bad as Azoun shows us. 9. Torm as a Greater God: So long as Tyr remains awesome, I don't begrudge his new status. 10. A focus on evil vs. good: Evil vs. Evil will always be a part of my Realms but I like the actively scheming evil they promise. 11. The Cult of the Dragon lives!: Richard Baker mentioned them. I thought they were destroyed with Sammaster's death. 12. Trying something daring: I don't agree with it but I appreciate the balls. Now I got it. I took my sweet time, but eventually I got it: The Realms were too boring, too down-to-earth. Finally they're shiny and colorful and way out there enough to be taken seriously, because honestly, who needs political intrigue when he can have islands in the sky and - woot! - new dungeons that replace the countless old ones? I'm hoping the old political intrigues will remain viable to be honest.
MarkusTay63 02-29-08, 01:57 AM	I don't agree with it but I appreciate the balls.Thats exactly what they said about the first Christmas Tree! :P
Charles Phipps 02-29-08, 02:33 AM	Recently, I think I was most surprised at how much poor Greyhawk is getting its ass kicked by the Forgotten Realms in Core material. * Bahamut will be staying Thoughts: I'm not surprised by this, Bahamut is a mainstay. He's actually made the immigration to :censored: Final Fantasy for :censored:'s sake. You really can't get more brand recognition than that. I assume, though it's not yet been confirmed that Tiamat of the 5 Heads will also be doing so. * Sehanine is Selune Thoughts: This is, to me, just renaming Selune into Sehanine rather than the reverse. Basically, Sehanine is a Core Deity but you pretty much need Selune for the epic stories of the past. I don't believe Lolth will be Shar but I think part of the reason Selune is staying is she's just a renamed Core deity now. * Corellon Latherian is staying Thoughts: Again, duh here. No real chance of Corellon NOT being part of the New Realms. The question is, will it be 30 or so IN ADDITION to the Core Deities or 30 INCLUDING the Core Deities. * Bane is replacing Hextor http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/war_drums_gallery/Aspect_of_Hextor.jpg Thoughts: This disappoints me, cause dammit, I love racist Six Armed Gods of Fascism (look at the way his arms are positioned!). Really, he's THE God of Hobgoblins in my game and it disappoints me that we're losing Hextor just because his brother sucks ass. Bane could learn a thing or two from Hextor. * Paladins of Tymora http://picasaweb.google.com/gertiebarden/4eCharacterSheets/photo#5172236767211240418 Thoughts: This took me by surprise. Not only that Tymora will be in 4E's Core as THE Luck Goddess but apparently, she's also a major person worshiped by Halflings. Almost certainly this will manage to preserve a lot of the flavor of the Halfling Race I think. Again, it makes me wonder if the developers are saving some deities by moving up. * Cleric of Amaunator http://picasaweb.google.com/gertiebarden/4eCharacterSheets/photo#5172236844520651778 Thoughts: Oh :censored: no! They are NOT replacing Lathander's awesome name with that unpronounceable :censored:! Please, Please, Please TELL me that he's GOOD and Neutral rather than Lawful Neutral. Amaunator's faith is the ENEMY in my games. My player characters hunt down and kill Risen Sun Heretics for sport, they're such :censored:! Ugh, well....goodbye Pelor. * Lolth is still around Thoughts: There's probably no real doubt on this or ever was. She's too much a part of the Realms to just vanish. Now for some other predictions. * The Mulhorandi Pantheon will be Extinct Thoughts: I honestly won't miss the majority of it. However, I will miss Set a great deal and Anhur was also a close friend of mine. However, the simple fact was that despite the awesomeness of Stagnant unlikeable Horus-Re....too many people weren't able to get into Mulhorand. Nevertheless, the wholesale wiping it out should have been done by Set because he was always part of the Realms. * Maztica's Pantheon is Gone Thoughts: I think we can all say "Well Duh" on this one. * Silvanus is Obad-Hai Thoughts: I'm thinking that he's going to be getting the Selune treatment in that a god very recognizable to readers will be pretty much wholesale imported over in his role to the Forgotten Realms to maximize ease of crossover between Core and the Realms. Frankly, at this point, we're starting to approach that 30 Gods mark with two pantheons totally wiped clean plus all the casualties of the Spell Plague amongst the Magic Deities. * Asmodeus will survive and will the Lords of the Eight other Layers Thoughts: Pretty much by nature due to Asmodeus' status now as a Core Greater God. The Lords of Nine will all, presumably, be Exarchs. * Demogorgon, Graz'zt, Orcus, and other Demon Lords will all survive Thoughts: Already confirmed in the 4E previews. The compatible cosmology will serve them well. * Ghaundaur will survive Thoughts: I'm surprised by this but it's legitimate. Since they're confirming maximum compatibility in my mind, they need someone to be the Elemental Prince of Evil and Ghaundaur has always had that role. Thus, he'll make it into the slush pile like Selune and Obad-Silvanus.
Dexter_Blacktyde 02-29-08, 08:45 AM	It's interesting how much we agree. 1. The Death of Sylune: Her ability to move around and otherwise not be a ghost was undermining her tragic sacrifice. Honestly, I'm glad someone put a fork in her before she was overcooked completely. IMC she just stayed dead. Contrary to popular belief I like it when someone important bites the dust without coming back ;) 2. Orcs as a viable PC race: I rather like the idea since I've never particularly treated Orcs as anything but cannon fodder in the Realms but a culture that just hates Elves, Hates Nature, and kills at the drop of a hat. Exactly the way I've handled them. It's just that their portrayal by Salvatore was downright horrible, and whether this is any indication or not, I doubt WotC can pull off a good-aligned orc kingdom. 3. The End of Thay-mart: It's got to be stated, this was the worst idea in the history of the Realms to me. I didn't like the idea, but I didn't hate it either. 4. A return to magical magic: Forgotten Realms is not Eberron. Magic is something special in the world and it's important to see that it is given the appropriate fear/reverance when someone does it. Everyone and his brother a mage doesn't do that. Agreed, but just in theory. The mages get killed off, but now that we have the Yes© version of the Realms with - if I am to believe the previews - magical phenomena around every corner, I doubt magic will come across as something special. It seems more ubiquitous than ever. I definitely prefer the old way. 5. Netheril rather than Shade: I just it's not just a pseudonym and we have more than just a bigger and nastier version of the Shades. I didn't welcome the Shades with open arms to begin with. One of the biggest problem of the Old Realms for me was: Why can't anything stay dead / destroyed / missing / forgotten / whatever? Without 4e around the corner (and its philosophy of killing off mainstays), I would've bet my soul that they'd brought back Khelben somehow, for example. 6. Bigger Badder Balur's Gate: I like that it's now a Kingdom in its own right. Absolutely. 7. Imperial Cormyr: I like the idea of a larger and expansion minded Cormyr. So do I, but I don't like the execution. Now they've got two additional small and struggling towns in the Southwest and Daerlun in the East, and all of a sudden it's an "Empire"? (Reminds me of Tyax - who renownedly ruled all *g*) Since they're doing away with Sembia anyway, I would've preferred an annexation by Cormyr. Now, that would be something I'd be willing to call an empire. 8. Resolving Plots: Shar vs. Mystra ended horribly for good but it ended along with Cyric vs. Mystra. Also, I liked the Mulhorandi and Unther war being resolved as well. Resolved? Brought to a hamfisted conclusion / dropped, I'd call it ;) 9. Torm as a Greater God: So long as Tyr remains awesome, I don't begrudge his new status. The upstart Torm without Helm loses much of his appeal for me. It was a great way to show that good doesn't necessarily mean good when too much fanaticism is at work. But maybe the differences between them weren't clear-cut enough for the new intended audience, so Helm had to go. But if I'm not mistaken, Tyr will get the pink slip too, won't he? 11. The Cult of the Dragon lives!: Richard Baker mentioned them. I thought they were destroyed with Sammaster's death. That's my contender for "worst idea in the history of the Realms" :D 12. Trying something daring: I don't agree with it but I appreciate the balls. I don't - as long as the result is as sub-par as it seems to be so far, I don't see any merit in killing off a setting that's been going on for twenty years, whether it takes balls or not. DB
GothicDan 02-29-08, 09:21 AM	So do I, but I don't like the execution. Now they've got two additional small and struggling towns in the Southwest and Daerlun in the East, and all of a sudden it's an "Empire"? (Reminds me of Tyax - who renownedly ruled all *g*) Since they're doing away with Sembia anyway, I would've preferred an annexation by Cormyr. Now, that would be something I'd be willing to call an empire. It's true. Technically, all an empire is the rule over non-native people. But, really, in my mind? Empires are large, too. And it would have prevented the 'Nethese Empire.' (Laugh.)
GreenKnight 02-29-08, 09:59 AM	Neither Tymora nor Amaunator are going to be core gods. Those characters were for Living Forgotten Realms.
Charles Phipps 02-29-08, 11:16 AM	I stand corrected.
Lord Karsus 02-29-08, 12:45 PM	11. The Cult of the Dragon lives!: Richard Baker mentioned them. I thought they were destroyed with Sammaster's death. -The Cult can still exist, sure. They aren't going to have much to do, though, since the Dracorage Mythal no longer exists, and there are no more Rages. * Bahamut will be staying Thoughts: I'm not surprised by this, Bahamut is a mainstay. He's actually made the immigration to :censored: Final Fantasy for :censored:'s sake. You really can't get more brand recognition than that. -Bahamut is mythological creature. Indian or Arabic, I believe.
Charles Phipps 02-29-08, 12:48 PM	Actually, depending on your intepretation, Bahamut is a product of Judaism.
Lord Karsus 02-29-08, 12:51 PM	Actually, depending on your intepretation, Bahamut is a product of Judaism. -In so much as it is a 'derivative' of Behemoth.
Charles Phipps 02-29-08, 01:21 PM	*nod nod*
MarkusTay63 02-29-08, 02:21 PM	But the entire Tiamet vs. Bahamut was a complete fabricatiuon of earlier editions of D&D - there is absolutely NO mythology to support it! Bahamut may have been derived from Behemoth, but it is a creation of TSR/Gygax. Tiamet is often associated with Leviathan, but there is no mythological basis except for some linguistic similarities. Both names were presumebly pulled from earlier Sumerian works (just as 90% of Judaism was), but the way in which they are used (merely uber-monsters) in the Old Testament was just a way of working in the superiority of the 'new' religion over the old. And its been done countless times since then, with older local gods becoming saints in Christianity. Newer religions often 'absorb' older traditions in order to better assimilate their cultures. On Topic: I too agree with much of Mr. Phipp's conclusions/estimates of 4e - well done. Amaunator just reminds me too much of 'Terminator'... and like him, he said "I'll be back..." :D
Charles Phipps 02-29-08, 02:28 PM	No, Bahamut as we know him is a combination of Marduk with Behemoth. Also, the result of equating Leviathan with Tiamat as you state. However, let's not really kick that horse while it's down. We could point out all day that Older versions are better or more accurate but every generation reworks the gods for their own use. Otherwise, we'll have to start talking about removing the Zeus elements from Jupiter. In a fictional game, it works.
MarkusTay63 02-29-08, 02:31 PM	As long as you don't start talking about "Drops of Jupiter" then I'm fine with that. ;)
Charles Phipps 02-29-08, 02:37 PM	So do I, but I don't like the execution. Now they've got two additional small and struggling towns in the Southwest and Daerlun in the East, and all of a sudden it's an "Empire"? (Reminds me of Tyax - who renownedly ruled all *g*) Since they're doing away with Sembia anyway, I would've preferred an annexation by Cormyr. Now, that would be something I'd be willing to call an empire. Unfortunately, I can't support Sembia being annexed by Cormyr. Simply put, it's about the ONLY nation-to-nation conflict in the Forgotten Realms. If Sembia was annexed by Cormyr then effectively it's a nation in the middle of a bunch of wilderness with no rivals or chance of being invaded. Honestly, I support the Dales being annexed first because it would put Cormyr as bordering 1. Myth Drannor 2. Zhentil Keep Then there's all sorts of political problems you could handle. The upstart Torm without Helm loses much of his appeal for me. It was a great way to show that good doesn't necessarily mean good when too much fanaticism is at work. But maybe the differences between them weren't clear-cut enough for the new intended audience, so Helm had to go. But if I'm not mistaken, Tyr will get the pink slip too, won't he? Honestly, I never saw Helm and Torm as that similiar. Helm for me was always the god on the edge of the Triad that was worshiped by soldiers and other people who protected things but didn't really give too much thought beyond blind loyalty. But we don't know what's going to happen with Tyr to be honest. I'm a huge fan but there's a lot of bad blood towards the Lawbringer because suddenly he murdered a close friend thanks to Writer on Board. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WriterOnBoard That's my contender for "worst idea in the history of the Realms" :D I find the Cult of the Dragon becomes so much more reasonable if you just have them worship Dragons. I don't - as long as the result is as sub-par as it seems to be so far, I don't see any merit in killing off a setting that's been going on for twenty years, whether it takes balls or not. Honestly, what few people realize is that problems can be fixed with the stroke of a pen too. Exactly the way I've handled them. It's just that their portrayal by Salvatore was downright horrible, and whether this is any indication or not, I doubt WotC can pull off a good-aligned orc kingdom. I've opened a thread in the Races board to talk about Justifying Orc-demption. Agreed, but just in theory. The mages get killed off, but now that we have the Yes© version of the Realms with - if I am to believe the previews - magical phenomena around every corner, I doubt magic will come across as something special. It seems more ubiquitous than ever. I definitely prefer the old way. I confess, I wonder what Brian James would think of the fact that I think one of the most awe inspiring scenes from fantasy films is where Aragorn and company approach the statues of Isildur and his father. No magic, just huge statues from a forgotten past. I didn't welcome the Shades with open arms to begin with. One of the biggest problem of the Old Realms for me was: Why can't anything stay dead / destroyed / missing / forgotten / whatever? Without 4e around the corner (and its philosophy of killing off mainstays), I would've bet my soul that they'd brought back Khelben somehow, for example. I tend to agree, it's like Atlantis coming back.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-29-08, 04:15 PM	Okay, I'm a little confused then for what exactly this means for *finger wag* Imperial Cormyr. So Cormyr gets a couple of new cities but both of them suck? Wow, what a tremendous change for the land that justifies them referring to as an Empire. I was thinking the same thing myself when I read that bit. Then again, this article is only about the first decade after the Spellplague. These little cities have a whole 90 years or so to recover. Question, is this a human turned Celestial Eldarin or a human turned into an Elf? Cause, either way, he's just a guy whose an eco-terrorist. Shadowmoon Crystalembers is female.:) Now the Emerald Enclave is disbanded? Well that sucks, instead of making a generic Druid organization into a more interesting one, they just destroyed it. Yeah. :-/ Well, that would impress me more, except that the preview books for 4E have already stated that PATRON DEITIES *themselves* are supposed to be able to be defeatable by PCs unlike previous versions of the gods. Great point! The idea of Exarchs being defeatable is redundant, as we've already been told that killing any deity will be possible (if difficult) for epic PCs.
Lord Karsus 02-29-08, 04:17 PM	Shadowmoon Crystalembers is female.:) -Well, with a name like 'Shadowmoon', isn't that obvious? :P
Dexter_Blacktyde 02-29-08, 06:56 PM	Unfortunately, I can't support Sembia being annexed by Cormyr. Simply put, it's about the ONLY nation-to-nation conflict in the Forgotten Realms. If Sembia was annexed by Cormyr then effectively it's a nation in the middle of a bunch of wilderness with no rivals or chance of being invaded. Honestly, I support the Dales being annexed first because it would put Cormyr as bordering 1. Myth Drannor 2. Zhentil Keep Then there's all sorts of political problems you could handle. I see your reasoning, but I like the "independent" Dales too much for this. (Just a personal preference.) Looking at the designers' willingness to pluck things from thin air, I think they wouldn't have been unable to come up with something to replace Sembia as an exclave for the Shades. Since they're introducing people and places from Abeir left and right, they just as well could have dropped some of them into the Anauroch, so you'd have a strong Netheril pitted against a strong Cormyr. I'd be equally satisfied, by the way, if Cormyr had expanded to the Southwest and annexed the whole Dragon Coast area. But in order to survive against the cities of Shade and Sembia - and in order to call itself an empire - Cormyr should cover noticeably more ground than now, I think. Honestly, I never saw Helm and Torm as that similiar. Neither did I, but I guess it was Mr. Baker in his thread who said that people who are not into FR do (or could) consider them too similar, therefore one of them superfluous. I could live without Torm instead of Helm, but again that's just a personal preference. If I had had my way, both would have stayed. There's so much you could do with each - and especially so much you could do with both of them together. But we don't know what's going to happen with Tyr to be honest. I'm a huge fan but there's a lot of bad blood towards the Lawbringer because suddenly he murdered a close friend thanks to Writer on Board. I don't recall the exact words, but I'm pretty sure that Mr. Baker strongly implied that Tyr will be yesterday's news when he replied to the suggestions of a poster (GreenKnight?) as to how to handle the repercussions of the divine comedy. I find the Cult of the Dragon becomes so much more reasonable if you just have them worship Dragons. Exactly what I've done with them. Nice to see I'm not the only one :) I confess, I wonder what Brian James would think of the fact that I think one of the most awe inspiring scenes from fantasy films is where Aragorn and company approach the statues of Isildur and his father. No magic, just huge statues from a forgotten past. I guess by now you might be getting bored with me agreeing with you all the time... DB
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-01-08, 10:59 PM	7. Imperial Cormyr: I like the idea of a larger and expansion minded Cormyr. I would have had them conquer the Dales though. Then they wouldn't really be "good guys" anymore, would they? 11. The Cult of the Dragon lives!: Richard Baker mentioned them. I thought they were destroyed with Sammaster's death. It was never the case that the Cult folded upon Sammaster's death.:) Even Richard Lee Byers mentioned on Candlekeep a while back that the cult wasn't gone just because Sam was.
Charles Phipps 03-01-08, 11:04 PM	Then they wouldn't really be "good guys" anymore, would they? Depends on who they conquered. It was never the case that the Cult folded upon Sammaster's death. Even Richard Lee Byers mentioned on Candlekeep a while back that the cult wasn't gone just because Sam was. Well it sure damned well seemed like it.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-01-08, 11:07 PM	Also, where was it confirmed that the Maztica pantheon and the Mulhorandi pantheon are "dead"?
Charles Phipps 03-01-08, 11:08 PM	Both nations and their people are totally missing from Toril. Seriously. Do we need a confirmation on that?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-01-08, 11:10 PM	Depends on who they conquered. The people of the Dalelands like being independent. King Azoun IV has in fact made subtle overtures to Shadowdale about becoming a protectorate of Cormyr, and he got politely rejected each time. If Cormyr conquered the Dalelands by force, they would not be looked upon favorably. Well it sure damned well seemed like it. The novel in question (The Ruin) never stated that the Cult of the Dragon wound up being disbanded because of the events that took place therein.:)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-01-08, 11:12 PM	Both nations and their people are totally missing from Toril. Seriously. Do we need a confirmation on that? Number one--it's UNTHER that got wiped off the map, not Mulhorand. Number two, remember what I keep saying about getting confirmed facts, and not assuming things until we have something written in canon about it.
Charles Phipps 03-01-08, 11:13 PM	The people of the Dalelands like being independent. King Azoun IV has in fact made subtle overtures to Shadowdale about becoming a protectorate of Cormyr, and he got politely rejected each time. If Cormyr conquered the Dalelands by force, they would not be looked upon favorably. Fzoul sucessfully holding the Dales for a time might change that opinion. Likewise, the possibility of Sembia invasion finally being realized. Ultimately, the next generations opinion might just change too. Especially since Cormyr is no longer a blasted hellish wasteland.
Charles Phipps 03-01-08, 11:13 PM	Number one--it's UNTHER that got wiped off the map, not Mulhorand. Number two, remember what I keep saying about getting confirmed facts, and not assuming things until we have something written in canon about it. 1. Mulhorand was *ALSO* completely replaced R_F. 2. I also asked Richard to confirm that.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-01-08, 11:18 PM	1. Mulhorand was *ALSO* completely replaced R_F. 2. I also asked Richard to confirm that. Link, please? Also, I still won't take that as conformation of these deities just winding up dead, because the designers might actually do something different with them. For example, Set gets crafty and starts establishing bases of worshipers elsewhere. I've kept saying that if you want to bother keeping track of what's confirmed information and what isn't, you should NOTNOTNOTNOTNOT make assumptions until you've seen it in print! If you want to insist on making assumptions and saying "come on, it's a no-brainer that it turns out this way", then fine, do so, but don't be surprising if you turn out to be wrong.
Charles Phipps 03-01-08, 11:21 PM	Actually, that post where I reviewed stuff was about me not reviewing canon material but actually just discussing what I thought was going to happen. Really, don't get worked up over it. But yes, I'll try and find it. Really though, I think I have a right to discuss my take on the matter.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-01-08, 11:23 PM	Actually, that post where I reviewed stuff was about me not reviewing canon material but actually just discussing what I thought was going to happen. Really, don't get worked up over it. I'm not, really.:) But you do have a list of confirmed deaths, and not all deaths on that list were in fact confirmed. I think you should be careful about that. OK, I have to leave now, so goodnight.:)
Lord Karsus 03-01-08, 11:35 PM	Really though, I think I have a right to discuss my take on the matter. -If you post something, people have the right to agree/disagree/love it/hate it as they wish. Such is the nature of a conversation.
Charles Phipps 03-01-08, 11:42 PM	-If you post something, people have the right to agree/disagree/love it/hate it as they wish. Such is the nature of a conversation. Is this where you're rebutting me or agreeing with me?
Lord Karsus 03-01-08, 11:43 PM	Is this where you're rebutting me or agreeing with me? -Neither. You said, "Really though, I think I have a right to discuss my take on the matter". In response, I am reminding everyone of the above fact.
Charles Phipps 03-01-08, 11:54 PM	touche.
Charles Phipps 03-11-08, 03:30 PM	Well, as one might guess, I'm anxiously awaiting the 30 Deities that will be listed in the next Countdown article and have my finger's crossed as to who will survive and who won't. We have a good idea that Nobanion is an Exarch but pretty much anything goes elsewise. But, without further ado, here's... The Official "My Review" God Survival Predictions 1. Amaunator --- Do to his presence in the Living Realms and build up. He'll be a LG Sun God, something we really don't need and I imagine will be taking over a lot of Tyr's old business. 2. Torm ---- All but effectively confirmed. 3. Bane ---- As a Core Deity in D&D, the authors seem to like him and he'll stay. 4. Tymora ---- The Luck Goddess seems popular as we have them even in Eberron. 5. Shar ---- There's little chance she's disappearing thanks to the story they want to tell more stories about her post Spell-Plague. 6. Cyric ---- See Shar's entry. But really, can we make him less a tool? 7. Silvanus ---- The need for a "Druid" God is accompanied by also the fact Nobanion was his servitor in the last write-up. 8. Oghma ---- The God of Knowledge will play a role as patronizing wizards and other egg-head characters in the new Realms. 9. Set ---- The God of Mulhorand and villain of Conan the Barbarian pastiches memorial will be playing a major role post-Spell Plague. 10. Tiamat ---- Likewise, a return to the fantasy staple of D&D's major villainess. 11. Bahamut ---- Will also be making a transition. I think they'll be attempting to incorporate the Core Deities as major setting deities even if they're not really appropriate for the setting. 12. Lolth ---- Again, the Spider Queen is a Core Deity we'll almost certainly see. 13. Corellon ---- My rationale for Core Deities continues at pace. 14. Moradin ---- The Dwarves need their God. 15. Selune ---- We've had her pretty much confirmed as well, she'll be effectively the Core Sehanine though, so it's arguable who lost more. 16. Sune ---- There's just too many Love Goddesses around for them not to incorporate Sune. 17. Mask ---- A God of Thieves has been around since Newhon and Bel in Conan. 18. Asmodeus ---- I debated this one but I think we'll see Gargauth's role replaced and usurped by a much larger prevalence of Devil influence in Faerun. Again, it's because he's a Core Deity that this will happen. 19. Ghaundaur ---- The Elemental Ooze God will fit into their placing the Abyss at the center of the Elemental Chaos. 20. Chauntaea ---- I was touch and go with this entry, despite her being THE Earth Goddess. However, I think they're going to keep her and somehow try and make her more militant. 21. Kelemvor ---- The Death God, I believe will be treated even more neutrally as before and probably stop his hatred of the undead. I think Kelemvor's role will be as a god of the Shadowfel though. 22. Eilistraee ---- I'm going to go out on a limb and actually suggest she's going to make it to the next edition, all evidence to the contrary. In the end, I think they'll keep her or Mielikki but not both. 23. Azuth ---- Because I think we're going to have a god of Wizards. 24. Tempus ---- Because he's the generic fighter's God. 25. Talos ---- Because you can never have too much evil. 26. The Raven Queen ---- I'm not sure how they're going to do this but I think they're going to incorporate their Wee-Jass Substitute into the Realms somehow. 27. Velsharoon --- Odd pick, I know, but I'm inclined to think this may be his hour given he's more or less as close to Vecna as FR has. 28. Waukeen --- Another off choice, the simple fact she's the goddess of money and wealth seems to me that she'll have a far larger place in the Post Spell Plague world than we're used to from her. 29. Ilmater --- His presence in Brightwater almost makes me think he'll be an Exarch of Sune but he's such a recognizable Jesus-icon, being a rewritten Issek the Jug (who was BLATANTLY Jesus down to "corrupt church subverts his teachings") that I say he'll stay. 30. Umberlee- Honestly, it was her or Ubato and the later just seems to be such a localized god that I couldn't support it.
MarkusTay63 03-11-08, 03:53 PM	I agree with nearly all of that, especially considering they went out of their way to mention Azuth's and Velsharoon's survival in the GHotR. However, Azuth might be a Saint (Exarch, Demipower, whatever) of Oghma, and Velsharoon may be the same under Shar. Same may apply to Ilmater, because of the mention of him moving to Brightwater - present in 4e, but status unknown. 20. Chauntaea ---- I was touch and go with this entry, despite her being THE Earth Goddess. However, I think they're going to keep her and somehow try and make her more militant.For some reason, this brought to mind Treants in armor with the Caloric Shield Property. :D 21. Kelemvor ---- The Death God, I believe will be treated even more neutrally as before and probably stop his hatred of the undead. I think Kelemvor's role will be as a god of the Shadowfel though.Not seeing this... I think he will still be anti-Undead, to oppose Velsharoon's (under Shar) role as the supporter of such. Remember, in 4e, the negative plane has been folded into the Shadowfel, so it's a no-brainer that Shar has some say here. And you don't think that Kelemvor will truck with those who brought his main squeeze low, do you? :confused: I picture him becoming more about 'Renewal' (nature oriented Death), then going all dark and 'Undead' on us. 22. Eilistraee ---- I'm going to go out on a limb and actually suggest she's going to make it to the next edition, all evidence to the contrary. In the end, I think they'll keep her or Mielikki but not both.I see a merger, sort of like what they are doing with Selūne and whats-her-face. Unlike that, however, which is an "always been that way" explanantion, I think this may happen IG, with Mielikki stepping in and grabbing her portfolio/merging before Lolth can take that power. We may see a new name for the combined goddess come out of that as well... something core. :rolleyes:
Charles Phipps 03-11-08, 04:03 PM	I agree with nearly all of that, especially considering they went out of their way to mention Azuth's and Velsharoon's survival in the GHotR. I too had the thought that Azuth could well be an Exarch underneath Oghma and would fit in rather well under him. Velsharoon under Shar doesn't particularly work for me but, of course, I'm not terribly fond of Shar as any form of magical goddess myself. or some reason, this brought to mind Treants in armor with the Caloric Shield Property. Hehehe. Not seeing this... I think he will still be anti-Undead, to oppose Velsharoon's (under Shar) role as the supporter of such. Remember, in 4e, the negative plane has been folded into the Shadowfel, so it's a no-brainer that Shar has some say here. And you don't think that Kelemvor will truck with those who brought his main squeeze low, do you? I picture him becoming more about 'Renewal' (nature oriented Death), then going all dark and 'Undead' on us. I don't see a corruption of Kelemvor per say but the movement towards complete neutrality does occur to me as something they might want to pull off and that includes incorporating priests who might want to take advantage of the Death domain. Just a thought on my end. I see a merger, sort of like what they are doing with Selūne and whats-her-face. Unlike that, however, which is an "always been that way" explanantion, I think this may happen IG, with Mielikki stepping in and grabbing her portfolio/merging before Lolth can take that power. We may see a new name for the combined goddess come out of that as well... something core. Very possible. We could solve a lot of riddles by finding out whose on the Core Deity list. Frankly, I've been calling Silvanus "Obad Hai" ever since 3E. If I had to have an "Honorable Mention" for deities that would survive then I'd probably have these. 1. Gruumsh --- It's almost certain he's getting combined with Talos, but I almost wondered if Talos wouldn't be the alternate name instead of the reverse as with Sehanine replacing Sune. 2. Mielikki --- Again, it's mostly her interloper Status that keeps El in her spot. 3. Siamorphe --- A goddess of Aristocrats and Nobility is something that could have well been accented, but she's in Brightwater despite being prominently featured in the build up. 4. Ubtao ---- Merely because a god of savages, giant lizards, and reptile men is sorta cool. 5. Finder ---- A bizarre pick, I know but it occurs to me that he's a deity that could well become patron of Non-Evil Rogues and so on.
MarkusTay63 03-11-08, 04:29 PM	Commentary... 1. Gruumsh --- It's almost certain he's getting combined with Talos, but I almost wondered if Talos wouldn't be the alternate name instead of the reverse as with Sehanine replacing Sune. * True, Talos could just be Gruumsh's 'Faerūnian name, and I concur that Selūne would just be a local aspect of the much-older Sehanine. Just finished Twilight Falling, and although that book predates all this 4e nonsense, Mr. Kemp firmly establishes Shar as a Primordial Power of Darknes, and most-likely pre-Torillian. The Fane of Shadows is described in such a way as to make it appear that Shar IS either the Shadow-Archtype, or the MOST powerful aspect of that Archtype, since she built the Fane, and it has power IN OVER A HUNDRED WORLDS! * 2. Mielikki --- Again, it's mostly her interloper Status that keeps El in her spot. * Lets no forget Ki, part of the Untheric Pantheon, that was just the Sumerian version of Mielikki. She died during the Orcgate Wars, but it wouldn't suprise me of her and Mielikki were both aspects of some other (core?) Goddess in the Realms (Artemis? No... not the assassin... :rolleyes: ) * 3. Siamorphe --- A goddess of Aristocrats and Nobility is something that could have well been accented, but she's in Brightwater despite being prominently featured in the build up. * Once again, her mention at the end of the GHoTR pretty much gaurantees she's still around, but I think she will embrace the 'Nobility' aspect and operate under Sune. Sune, on the other, seems to be 'collecting' gods, so I see her becoming something more substantial come 4e (Goddes of the Human Spirit?) * 4. Ubtao ---- Merely because a god of savages, giant lizards, and reptile men is sorta cool. * I think Set is going to kill him and take his stuff * :P 5. Finder ---- A bizarre pick, I know but it occurs to me that he's a deity that could well become patron of Non-Evil Rogues and so on. * If we knew who the Core power for Bards/Music/Artistic Inspiration was, I say Finder was going to be rolled into him. * As a side note, the Greek Muses fell under Apollo's sway, so perhaps Finder will wind-up under Amaunator's 'umbrella' now.
Charles Phipps 03-11-08, 04:36 PM	Well as a man whose played a Priest of Set in the Realms. I do say they have kickass outfits and I wouldn't mind a Chult dominated by the worship of the Serpent God. http://vladalucard.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/barbarian3.jpg "Now they will know why they are afraid of the dark. Now they learn why they fear the night."
MarkusTay63 03-11-08, 06:52 PM	Sorry, Kulan-Gath pwns him hands down. :P http://images.wikia.com/marveldatabase/images/0/0c/Kulan_Gath_001.jpg Not only did he battle Conan and Red Sonja, but he has BEATEN the X-Men and the Avengers, taken over the Savage Land, and even fought a Melnibonean Sorceress and Hyperion!!! He was taught by Thoth, but had to flee Stygia for practicing sorcery that even worshippers of Set found disgusting! While Thoth-Amon is stuck in the Hyborian Age, this guy has been all over the Multiverse. :dancin:
msatran 03-15-08, 01:15 AM	Sorry. Kulan Gath is not Howard Canon. Thulsa Doom and Serpent Men for the win.
MarkusTay63 03-15-08, 07:52 PM	But Kulan Gath is SO much sexier as a villain... http://spider-bob.com/villains/marvel/images/KulanGath01.jpg Seriously, can you just see the looks on your PC's faces when they open up that last door in the dungeon, and you hand them THAT pic and say "THIS is what you see..." :devil:
Charles Phipps 03-15-08, 07:57 PM	Sorry. Kulan Gath is not Howard Canon. Thulsa Doom and Serpent Men for the win. Pppft. None of the Kull villains hold a candle to Thoth-Amon and Thog!
MarkusTay63 03-15-08, 08:44 PM	And Conan BEAT Thoth-Amon, not to mention Wolverine. http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/Conan_Wolverine.jpg Whose says high-level fighters aren't fun to play? :P
Charles Phipps 03-15-08, 08:47 PM	Bizarrely, that is the first comic book I ever bought. And to this day, I insist it is surprisingly good and faithful to both characters.
MarkusTay63 03-15-08, 09:20 PM	Crazy half-healed Wolverine with his head cloven in two was just too cool. :D I have almost every one of the "What-ifs". and most of them were pretty great. The one where Wolvie Kills Dracula and becomes the Lord of Vampires (and the Punisher becomes the 'Sorceror Supreme') was awesome, and the one where Set takes over the World was just loaded with great D&D goodness. :dancin: Sorry for the momentary de-rail Charles, but I'm waxing nostalgic and I may just need to dig those "oldies but goodies" out again. :)