Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dargoth 06-21-03, 10:02 AM	As regular board poster will know theres been an on or off arguement going as to whether Orcus is really back There have been several threads about that so i dont want this to turn into anotherone It has been my position that there are already enough gods involving necromancy and undead ie there would not be enough worshipers to support a 3rd deity of undeath. However Hypothetical situation: You have a choice between allowing Myrkul or Orcus back as a god Which one do you choose? Personally I choose Myrkul I find him far more interesting than Orcus, I can see Velsharoon for example putting on the Crown of Horns turning Myrkul back into a god
Tempus665 06-21-03, 12:30 PM	I´d also choose Myrkul; because he has more to do with the FR than Orcus, IMO. Besides, I know a lot more about Myrkul than I do about Orcus.
Gadodel 06-21-03, 04:12 PM	I've always thought that killing off Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul was a bad idea. Elevating Cyric and Kelemvor made it worse. I'd like the Triumvirate of Terror to return in full glory-not just Bane, but all three. That said, I would I would use the BoVD as is; if you worship Orcus-the Power of Evil will grant you spells and you will have certain domains. Orcus would be an Abyssal Lord that managed trick mortals into thinking he was a Deity. Orcus would then have to make a deal with Myrkul: servitude of the Deity for access to the Realms. Myrkul would in effect have something to match any other NPC on the Realms: including Fzoul Chembryl!!!
cwslyclgh 06-22-03, 03:07 AM	personaly I would go with both... here si why... I think that the FR design teams attempt to limit the amount of dietyies in the FR is a crock... look at the real world, and the proliferation of religions here, especialy in ancient times... why should the realms be any different? I also think they should have left AO as the overgod of the FAERUNIAN pantheon, which was his original role, and not given him dominion over the whole solar system. but I personaly prefer more a more realistic view of cosmology, and the design team seems to have wanted to limit the amount of work they had to do.
Alzrius 06-22-03, 03:29 AM	Originally posted by cwslyclgh personaly I would go with both... here si why... I think that the FR design teams attempt to limit the amount of dietyies in the FR is a crock... A sentiment I wholeheartedly agree with. I liked it that there were so many deities, especially where demihumans and monsters were concerned. That, of course, raises the interesting question that the "Replacement Monster Deities" table was cut from F&P, was not offered as a web enhancement, and was ordered removed from Sean K. Reynolds web site. That leads to serious doubts about the canonity of that section... I also think they should have left AO as the overgod of the FAERUNIAN pantheon, which was his original role, and not given him dominion over the whole solar system. I disagree here. Having him be limited to all things Realmspace gave him very set and defined limits. Having him be the overpower of just the "Faerunian pantheon" would have caused trouble, since there is room for doubt there. But, these are just opinions.
Dargoth 06-22-03, 03:45 AM	Originally posted by cwslyclgh personaly I would go with both... here si why... I think that the FR design teams attempt to limit the amount of dietyies in the FR is a crock... look at the real world, and the proliferation of religions here, especialy in ancient times... why should the realms be any different? I also think they should have left AO as the overgod of the FAERUNIAN pantheon, which was his original role, and not given him dominion over the whole solar system. but I personaly prefer more a more realistic view of cosmology, and the design team seems to have wanted to limit the amount of work they had to do. I disagree Gods in the FR are tied to the number of worshipers they have and as I said earlier theres not alot of people who are attracted to Undeath as a religion theres no way theres enough worshipers to support FOUR gods ie Kiranshee, Velshoon, Myrkul and Orcus
Alzrius 06-22-03, 04:15 AM	Originally posted by Dargoth and as I said earlier theres not alot of people who are attracted to Undeath as a religion theres no way theres enough worshipers to support FOUR gods ie Kiranshee, Velshoon, Myrkul and Orcus That's your opinion though. Kiaransalee is the racial deity of undeath among the drow, so she can be removed from that equation immediately (since the others are, by default, human gods). Even then, Velsharoon is just a demigod, so he doesn't need much, and Orcus is a lesser god. Even by that token, we still don't have a clear guideline on exactly how many worshippers it takes to sustain a god at a particular divine level. And we don't know how many people are attracted to necromancy.
Dargoth 06-22-03, 06:26 AM	Originally posted by Alzrius That's your opinion though. Kiaransalee is the racial deity of undeath among the drow, so she can be removed from that equation immediately (since the others are, by default, human gods). Even then, Velsharoon is just a demigod, so he doesn't need much, and Orcus is a lesser god. Even by that token, we still don't have a clear guideline on exactly how many worshippers it takes to sustain a god at a particular divine level. And we don't know how many people are attracted to necromancy. Well consider this Velshoon is the ONLY Faerian deity with the undeath domain and that hes ONLY a DEMI POWER A demi-power can have at most "a few thousand" (page 6 of F&P) Under Worshipers in F&P Jergal and Velshoon are the only ones that have Necromancers listed and both only have enough worshipers to be Demi-powers. Now I think I can safely say that Velshoon would have more Necromancers than Jergal (Jergals a declining Demipower) So given that 75-95% of all necromancers worship Velshoon AND hes only a Demi power So I repeat: "There is not enough Necromancers and worshipers of Undeath to support a third deity for that portfolio"
Alzrius 06-22-03, 11:06 AM	Originally posted by Dargoth Well consider this Velshoon is the ONLY Faerian deity with the undeath domain and that hes ONLY a DEMI POWER I would point out that its the portfolio entry, not the domains list, thats the most indicative of what that deity governs. A demi-power can have at most "a few thousand" (page 6 of F&P) Under Worshipers in F&P Jergal and Velshoon are the only ones that have Necromancers listed and both only have enough worshipers to be Demi-powers. Which doesn't necessarily equate to how many necromancers there are - you can be a necromancer and still worship a different god. Now I think I can safely say that Velshoon would have more Necromancers than Jergal (Jergals a declining Demipower) I would agree with the statement, but not the reasoning; Jergal would likely have fewer necromancers because of his subservience to Kelemvor, who abhors the undead. So given that 75-95% of all necromancers worship Velshoon AND hes only a Demi power Now this part is where you make the crucial error - nothing says that 75-95% of all necromancers on Faerun are worshippers of Velsharoon. In fact, I'm relatively confident that you're making that percentage up. You also seem to ignore the fact, despite mentioning it, that undeath is a portfolio aspect with several gods behind it...perhaps if there was just one "definitive" god of undeath, he'd have enough worshippers to justify a higher level of power. Also, the fact that Kiaransalee, the drow goddess of undeath, recently became a lesser power seems to fly in the face of all your reasoning. Finally, as I said before, being a necromancer does not equate they worship a god of necromancy. Necromancers could just as easily worship (the prior form of) Mystra, possibly Azuth, Talos, Cyric, etc. The reverse is also true - you don't have to be a necromancer to worship a god of undeath anymore than you have to be a mage to worship Mystra...given that there could be (and are) plenty of those "lay worshippers" the last of your reasoning then dissolves. So I repeat: "There is not enough Necromancers and worshipers of Undeath to support a third deity for that portfolio" So I repeat: you are incorrect.
Herr Doktor 06-22-03, 11:51 AM	I'd say Myrkul, just because it makes more sense to me for a former god of Death to conquer death and return to power. The problem I'd say is this: The faith of Myrkul is not popular, nore are its priests numerous. Many venerate Myrkul, and offerings are made in his name at funerals and other solemn occasions, but few actually worship the god as their primary faith. With Kelemvor taken up most of those responsibilites I'd say that Myrkul is out of luck in that Orcus seems to have the upperhand in number of worshippers, now and then. I guess it might be a good idea for atleast one of the Dead Three to stay dead.
Sarelle 06-22-03, 12:18 PM	--This is my opinion of Bane/Bhaal/Myrkul/Velsharoon/Kelemvor/Orcus. I have been struggling over the return of the Triumvirate of Terror for some time, and basically I am still undecided. I love Cyric, he is one of my favourite deities, so Bhaal is the deity of the three I want to see back least. Bane is back, and I'm happy with that - Xvim was a pile of dog-cr*p, and his father, however uninteresting in personality, is basically the King of Evil. Myrkul I would like back but (and I know everyone will hate me for admitting this) I actually quite like Velsharoon. Even though it is a bit stupid, I loved the way he played Talos then played Azuth and Mystra. he's not anything like as evil as Myrkul, but I think he is fun. So I was trying to work it out and F&P says that "with the exception of Demigods, no two deities can have the same portfolio". So we bring back Myrkul as the Lord of the Undead, maybe a Lesser Deity, maybe an Intermediate deity. He shouldn't get Death back (except as a Domain), because I like the way that Kelemvor became a compassionate god of death, because no deity of death could stay in power for long if they just turned all the dead into zombies. Velsharoon would keep necromancy, keeping a close (perhaps too close) alliance/secret servitude with Myrkul, while officially staying with Azuth. Then they all survive. Except Bhaal. If all three of the Triumvirate came back that would be cool, but Bhaal wouldn't have a portfolio. Oh and Orcus should stay. Not as a god but as one of the most powerful demon lords (of undeath).
Alzrius 06-22-03, 12:45 PM	Originally posted by Sarelle So I was trying to work it out and F&P says that "with the exception of Demigods, no two deities can have the same portfolio". I just wanted to point out that that's in regards to portfolio, not domains. Just a helpful reminder.
cwslyclgh 06-22-03, 04:06 PM	and I will point out that it is technically only valid with in the smae pantheon... Mystra and Isis are both goddesses of magic, etc.
Faeryl Zauvirr 06-22-03, 09:13 PM	"has not taken up up the self-proclaimed mantle "Prince of Undeath" out of devotion or allegiance. If anything, the demon lord despises undead." This quote comes from the Book of Vile Darkness and refers to Orcus. It is for this reasons that I would like to see Myrkul as the god of undeath. However my only experiences with Myrkul came with reading the Avatars Triology as I never played 2nd ed. My impression is that he was Bane's lackey and never stood for himself.
Magus Occidentalus 06-23-03, 02:58 AM	Just a side note--I'd harldy call Myrkul Bane's lackey. If I remember the story correctly (I think from the 2ed Campaign setting): When they were divying up the powers of Jergal, Bane went first and said, "I want tyranny and strife, so I can"... not sure but it was something like world leadership, whatever. Typical evilguy stuff. Myrkul Says, "Fine, but I want the dead. for then I shall but raise my hand and steal your reign from you." Finally Bhaal goes. "Excellent, for that leaves me with death" Well, I doubt he used excellent... "and that means I can destroy you kingdom Bane by raising my hand, or your's Myrkul, by stopping it." But if either of the two Myrkul or Orcus, were to be in the realms, I'd have to say Orcus, as he is the only undead god. (As in god who died and came back as undead, not undead being who became a god)
Kelrain 06-23-03, 06:23 AM	The lines you are probably thinking of are as follows: Bane cried out triumphantly, "As winner, I choose to rule for all eternity as the ultimate tyrant. I can induce hatred and strife at my whim, and all will bow down before me while in my kingdom." Myrkul, who had won second place, declared, "But I choose the dead, and by doing so I truly win, because all you are lord over, Bane, will eventually be mine. All things must die - even gods." Bhaal, who finished third, demurred, "I choose death, and it is by my hand that all that you rule Lord Bane will eventually pass to Lord Myrkul. Both of you must pay honor to me and obey my wishes, since I can destroy your kingdom, Bane, by murdering your subjects, and I can starve your kingdom, Myrkul, by staying my hand." As for me, I'd like to see Myrkul return.
Magus Occidentalus 06-23-03, 07:37 AM	By Jove, that was it. My eternal gratitude. And that story is why I've loved Bhall ever since...
Sarelle 06-23-03, 12:42 PM	Originally posted by Alzrius I just wanted to point out that that's in regards to portfolio, not domains. Just a helpful reminder. :confused: That's what I said... Originally posted by cwslyclgh and I will point out that it is technically only valid with in the smae pantheon... Mystra and Isis are both goddesses of magic, etc. Thanks for that, I forgot that. So Orcus can definitely exist with Myrkul/Velsharoon/Kelemvor around. Just thought I would say that. Hey - imagine if Yondalla put the Crown of Horns on - she would become a halfing version of Myrkul. Lol!
Niftyone 06-23-03, 02:58 PM	Personally, I like having lots of Evil gods, the more the better. Give my Good PCs lots of cults and evil followers to beat up on. So part of me would like to see them both come back. Orcus as a minor cult following, and Myrkul trying to regain his former prominance. That being said, if you're worried about too many Gods, then there isn't really any reason that one couldn't come back, and be worshipped under both guises in different areas. Certainly, there are other Dieties that are known by more than one name in different regions (Sharess, Tempus and Set spring to mind). So then that evil Orcus cult in the Vast or Bloodstone or wherever, could be truly worshipping Myrkul and not know it. Or Orcus could be trying to get back to some prominance while pretending to be Myrkul.
loki87 06-23-03, 08:43 PM	There are some serious differences in dogma between Myrkul and Orcus. Myrkul is the God of the Dead and the "Underworld," so while the Undead and Necromancy do fall in his domain, so do funerals and cementaries. Good people said prayers to Myrkul to deliver the dead to their resting places. However, Orcus is purely the Demon Prince of the Undead, not of all the Dead. His role is far more devious, as there is little reason for any good Faerunian to venerate him. Anyway, I think there is plenty of room in the Faerunian Pantheon for both.
Klyden 06-23-03, 11:09 PM	Orcus is enough for me. Let Myrkul rest in the Crown of Thorns for the rest of eternity I say! Velsharoon and Orcus are enough Gods of Undeath for me. Oh, just to point something out...Orcus is not a deity...well...he was...for a time...but not anymore. Now he is a Demon Prince with power EQUAL to a Lesser Deity. So Lesser Deities will treat him with respect and Demi-Gods will outright fear him. However, Intermediate Deities and Greater Deities could kill him with a good deal of effort. Nuff said.
Nighttfall 06-24-03, 01:51 AM	Originally posted by Klyden Orcus is enough for me. Let Myrkul rest in the Crown of Thorns for the rest of eternity I say! Velsharoon and Orcus are enough Gods of Undeath for me. Oh, just to point something out...Orcus is not a deity...well...he was...for a time...but not anymore. Now he is a Demon Prince with power EQUAL to a Lesser Deity. So Lesser Deities will treat him with respect and Demi-Gods will outright fear him. However, Intermediate Deities and Greater Deities could kill him with a good deal of effort. Nuff said. No disagreement on that last point from me Klyden. Of course I think everyone knows where I stand when it comes to Orcus. :b: :D ;)
ysrgrathe 06-24-03, 10:00 AM	Orcus is enough for me. Let Myrkul rest in the Crown of Thorns for the rest of eternity I say! Velsharoon and Orcus are enough Gods of Undeath for me. Oh, just to point something out...Orcus is not a deity...well...he was...for a time...but not anymore. Now he is a Demon Prince with power EQUAL to a Lesser Deity. So Lesser Deities will treat him with respect and Demi-Gods will outright fear him. However, Intermediate Deities and Greater Deities could kill him with a good deal of effort. Nuff said. Let's not get ahead of ourselves now. I partially agree with the post, but i'm afraid i disagree with the opinion that orcus is on par with demis and lesser gods. In 3rd edition, he is but an abyssal lord, with not even an ounce of divine rank. A sidebar does give the option of making abyssal lords divine rank 0 or even demigods (in deities and demigods and somewhere in BoVD) but that's all it is-an option. His official stats in BoVD are pitiful compared to even the weakest demipower. kiaransalee is a wiz 20/cleric 20, more than enough to blast orcus out of the sky (she did too in the past). even without divine rank. Give her divine rank and what can he do? Let's be realistic here, look objectively at the stats of orcus and any demigod, look good and hard at the salient divine abilities, and you will notice that any creature without divine rank, is toast no matter what. And orcus has no divine rank officially. So it is myrkul all the way. orcus is a little demon , and calling him a deity is being very very generous. having said that, i still love orcus more than myrkul. he just doesnt deserve to be the god of undeath
cwslyclgh 06-24-03, 12:24 PM	In 3rd edition, he is but an abyssal lord, with not even an ounce of divine rank. Faiths and Pantheons (Which we should probably be going by here as this is the realms we are talking about) lists Orcus as a lesser god.
ysrgrathe 06-24-03, 05:08 PM	I forgot about that, But frankly, all it is, is a single line of text at the end of the book. I didn't pay much attention to it the first time i saw it. Would be interesting to know what the explanation is-and the vague explanation they give about gods having different divine ranks in diff crystal spheres is just too vague and odd for my liking. Perhaps a more in depth and logical reason would help. I mean, if he is but an abyssal lord in greyhawk for example, and a group of greyhawk heroes go to his plane and engage him, he is just an abyssal lord. what if a bunch of faerun go and engage him? why is he suddenly a lesser god? what if both groups join forces and fight him together? what is he then? a lesser deity or a no divine rank being? go figure. Until I get a concrete answer, i go for the only book which has official stats for him-the BoVD.
Nighttfall 06-24-03, 05:09 PM	:b:Orcus:b:
NiTessine 06-24-03, 11:26 PM	I'd go with Orcus, for two reasons: 1. Orcus is more fitting to be the god of the undead, being, well, an undead god. He is also cooler than Myrkul, who apparently hasn't been able to pull off the same trick. 2. There is more reference material on Orcus than Myrkul. He goes way back to the beginning days of the game, and has established more of a presence and a personality than Myrkul.
Nighttfall 06-28-03, 08:51 PM	Thanks Ni and I appreciate your reasons. Just too bad I like you so much as a good guy otherwise I'd honestly invite you into my evil Underdark FR campaign.
Klyden 06-28-03, 09:22 PM	You gotta remember that the Demon Lords and Arch Devils in the Book of Vile Darkness have not been updated to 3.5 Edition. In 3.5 Edition, all Monsters will gain Feats like your PC's. Meaning One Feat at 1st, one at 3rd, one at 6th, one at 9th, one at 12th, one at 15th, and one at 18th and so on! This means that all the Challenge Ratings as well as the overall stats are going to be changed...eventually...
Nighttfall 06-28-03, 10:12 PM	Klyden, That maybe so, but we'll see if and when that happens.
Alzrius 06-29-03, 12:38 AM	That would be nice if it did happen, but it's unlikely. The best we're probably going to get in that regard is that special 3.5E conversion guide, which will cover specific books - hopefully it'll cover the BoVD too.
ysrgrathe 06-30-03, 08:41 AM	You gotta remember that the Demon Lords and Arch Devils in the Book of Vile Darkness have not been updated to 3.5 Edition. In 3.5 Edition, all Monsters will gain Feats like your PC's. Meaning One Feat at 1st, one at 3rd, one at 6th, one at 9th, one at 12th, one at 15th, and one at 18th and so on! This means that all the Challenge Ratings as well as the overall stats are going to be changed...eventually... Funny you should say that, that's exactly what I did :) 1 feat per 3 levels, and epic feats after the the lvl 18 one :) Oh and I slapped divine rank 0 lke they suggested in BoVD. I want to keep the archdevils and demon lords within the pc's grasp, so i didnt give orcus and pazrael lesser god status (div rank 6-10) as that would make them unbeatable. What CR increase would divine rank 0 give, given that its got a lost of powers and immunities given?
Shroudrender 12-19-07, 10:03 PM	I chose Myrkul as Lord of the Undead, just as you describe Velsharoon putting the Crown of Horns on and bang he is consumed by the essence of Myrkul. If Cyric could be affected by an artifact why not Velsharoon who needs all the power he can get. Orcus being a Demon prince is just not in the running.
Shemeska the Marauder 12-20-07, 12:11 AM	Orcus being a Demon prince is just not in the running. Not really. It's all context dependant. In some instances gods are more powerful, and in some instances archfiends are more powerful.
Lord Karsus 12-20-07, 02:33 AM	-Shroudrender, how the hell did you find this thread?
Stigger 12-20-07, 07:03 AM	I have to admit, I'm impressed... dunno if even LK's thread resurrection abilities are that good. Well done you. :D
Kenzuki 12-20-07, 08:52 AM	I'm going to have to go with Myrkul, he was cooler to me than some fat, bloated demonic goat......
Lord Karsus 12-20-07, 03:03 PM	I have to admit, I'm impressed... dunno if even LK's thread resurrection abilities are that good. Well done you. :D -I'm not sure, truthfully. It's not something I want to attempt. Who knows what kind of thread might be reanimated!?
Shroudrender 12-20-07, 05:30 PM	-Shroudrender, how the hell did you find this thread? Actually I was reading the backround on Velsharoon and learned that he now seeks the Crown of Horns. So I typed in Myrkul in my browser and what do you know? a Myrkul vs Orcus thread. It has been some time since I posted anything about Myrkul so I just wanted to put my two cents in.
Lord Karsus 12-20-07, 06:01 PM	Actually I was reading the backround on Velsharoon and learned that he now seeks the Crown of Horns. So I typed in Myrkul in my browser and what do you know? a Myrkul vs Orcus thread. It has been some time since I posted anything about Myrkul so I just wanted to put my two cents in. -Wow. Whatever search engine that was needs to update!
Zanan 12-21-07, 06:48 AM	Myrkul is the god of death and the dead, essentially a personification of death as much as Mystra is that of magic. Orcus simply is a twice-slain Abyssal Lord who rules over a layer of undead, yet doesn't even like undead. No contest IMHO.
Lord Karsus 12-21-07, 11:56 AM	-You're just biased.
GothicDan 12-21-07, 11:59 AM	Myrkul. (Old school Jergal above all, though.)
Stigger 12-21-07, 03:17 PM	Everyone is biased. Its an almost inescapable problem with the human condition...
Lord Karsus 12-21-07, 03:28 PM	Everyone is biased. Its an almost inescapable problem with the human condition... -Zanan is doubly-biased, since she's a Yathrinshee. Me? I'm not, since I have nothing particularly vested in either Myrkul or Orcus. Orcus is pretty cool, having the Last Word and cheating death and everything. But, Myrkul has a 'y' and a 'k' in his name, in sucession. So, the two are ptretty evenly matched.
Stigger 12-21-07, 03:36 PM	Orcus sounds like something to do with orcs, so he is teh suxxorz.
Lord Karsus 12-21-07, 04:16 PM	Orcus sounds like something to do with orcs, so he is teh suxxorz. -Or, he's a cus. Or-cus. :rimshot: -I'm on fire today.
Stigger 12-21-07, 05:01 PM	*tosses some white phosphorous onto LK to help out the fire a bit* :P
Lord Karsus 12-21-07, 05:14 PM	*tosses some white phosphorous onto LK to help out the fire a bit* :P -Phew. Good thing I've mentioned previously that I'm immune to Fireballs, and their effects. I'm going to assume that that applies to white phosphorous as well.
Stigger 12-21-07, 07:36 PM	Yes, I know, but it really did a number on what's left of your robes...
Lord Karsus 12-21-07, 08:27 PM	-Whoops. :embarrass
Zanan 12-22-07, 04:10 AM	-Zanan is doubly-biased, since she's a Yathrinshee. Me? I'm not, since I have nothing particularly vested in either Myrkul or Orcus. Orcus is pretty cool, having the Last Word and cheating death and everything. But, Myrkul has a 'y' and a 'k' in his name, in sucession. So, the two are ptretty evenly matched. Nono ... the problem solely lies with the designers, some of whom are clearly as Orcus-fanboyish as others are Drizztfanboyish. Goatie simply is an Abyssal Lord, and just one among many. I actually think that even he cannot fathom the designers intent in returning him time and again to his much hated realm and throne.
Lord Karsus 12-22-07, 04:15 AM	Orcus: Damn it! I died on purpose this time! Why the hell do they keep on bringing me back? What, I'm not allowed to enjoy my retirement? Bhaal: *Snickers* Orcus: Laugh it up. At least they care enough about me... Bhaal: *Grows teary eyed*
Zanan 12-22-07, 01:39 PM	Bhaal *yet suddenly cracks a smile* "Got a cool PC game which is known by mil- nay billions of people, you upstart!"
Lord Karsus 12-22-07, 01:50 PM	Orcus: *Being sucked into the light* "True, but at least I don't have to hang out with that bunch of miscreants anymore! See ya!" Bhaal: *Looks around, and sees the great offal mound that is Moander shuffling towards him, the giant lizard that is Ibrandul waddling towards him, and animal fat greased Kiaransalee waltzing towards him (:P).
Mr_Miscellany 12-22-07, 02:30 PM	Hypothetical situation: You have a choice between allowing Myrkul or Orcus back as a god Which one do you choose? Hypothetically? Orcus. He's going to be on the new Monster Manual cover (at least last time I checked) and I've had lots of fun DMing him/his NPCs in my Realms Campaign. Good old fashioned bad guy. ::::::::::: But if I could have my way....I'd want them both back. Remove Kelemvor (i.e., god with coolest name but most boring presence in the Realms evar vis-à-vis his portfolio) or relegate him to demigod status in the same manner they're already rearranging things anyway, then let Myrkul get back to being the scary god of death I remember from twenty years ago. And make the afterlife more mysterious and not so straight forward, while you’re at it. Blow up the wall of the faithless and make it so that if you land in Myrkul’s domain and no god claims you....well then you’re in a kind of hellish place like no other.
Stigger 12-22-07, 03:41 PM	I'm rather fond of Kelemvor myself... just fits more with my concept of how death should work, as in nothing to be feared. Not quite a perfect fit, but better than Myrkul ever was. To each their own though.
Kenzuki 12-22-07, 07:00 PM	Orcus: *Being sucked into the light* "True, but at least I don't have to hang out with that bunch of miscreants anymore! See ya!" Bhaal: *Looks around, and sees the great offal mound that is Moander shuffling towards him, the giant lizard that is Ibrandul waddling towards him, and animal fat greased Kiaransalee waltzing towards him (:P). Hrmmmm greased up Drow goddess......:cool:
GothicDan 12-22-07, 07:35 PM	Sigh, there's that 'should' word again. Silly, silly. ;) I actually like Mr. Miscellany's idea, there. I always wanted Kelemvor to be a sort of LN/LG champion of the sanctity of the dead. Maybe with Jergal ruling over all, and Myrkul at one side. Maybe throw in Bhaal too as the god of murder and assassins. I'm all for dark mini-pantheons, especially death-related ones. I was a huge fan of the Complete Book of Necromancers.
Mr_Miscellany 12-22-07, 07:40 PM	Maybe with Jergal ruling over all, and Myrkul at one side. Maybe throw in Bhaal too as the god of murder and assassins. YES! I like this idea a lot. Now, between us I think you write better....so howzabout you throw the idea Rich's way on the Ask Rich Baker Thread? It might not be too late! :D
Kenzuki 12-22-07, 07:40 PM	Am I the only one who thinks Jergal has been masterminding everything all alone? I mean it's said that he'll work to undermine any god of death above him he doesn't like, that and he has that nasty little power of scribbling your name on his list and you die....wonder if that applies to gods too? I hope they keep Jergal around in 4 Edition, he has some GREAT possibilities!
GothicDan 12-22-07, 07:45 PM	Eric Boyd hinted in a non-canon path that Jergal may be more than he appears, as in the Age of Worms adventure series. Again, non-canon, but I think it still gives a good idea as to what MIGHT be going on in Jergal's ancient, ancient mind. He's also one of my all-time favorite deities.
GothicDan 12-22-07, 07:48 PM	YES! I like this idea a lot. Now, between us I think you write better....so howzabout you throw the idea Rich's way on the Ask Rich Baker Thread? It might not be to late! I'd feel dirty. I'm almost definitely not buying 4E FR - not just because of obstinacy, but because of money. Grad school, moving to the west coast, fraternity dues, etc. But I'll mull the idea over in my head. I wonder how popular Kelemvor is showing up on WotC's radar as the one/sole death deity...
Kenzuki 12-22-07, 07:48 PM	What path might that be oh sage?
GothicDan 12-22-07, 07:49 PM	Oh sage? Pft. I'm rusty. I didn't read all of it, but I believe in the Age of Worms FR adaption, Jergal was making a bid for greater power once again, basically.
Kenzuki 12-22-07, 08:23 PM	Could Jergal kill a god by inscribing it's name on his list? Or does that only effect mortals?
GothicDan 12-22-07, 08:46 PM	Divine mysteries, my friend.
Kenzuki 12-22-07, 08:50 PM	Guess no one better **** off the Lord of the End of Everything.... I mean....he gave the portfolio of dusk to Mrykul and Mrykul later died....and then Cyric ****** him off and then later loses his job as God of the Dead.... I played a Monk/Cleric of Jergal once, good times good times.
GothicDan 12-22-07, 09:23 PM	Really, I haven't heard much negativity about Jergal, whereas I've heard a lot about Kelemvor, and at least some about Myrkul. Even the LN Jergal of now is more proper for the lord of the dead than Kelemvor, though I always found the LE Jergal much more interesting and full of adventure potential.
Kenzuki 12-22-07, 10:20 PM	Jergal was once the most powerful deity wasn't he? I mean besides Lord Ao of course..
GothicDan 12-22-07, 10:23 PM	All of Jergal's info was in 2E - where hard and easy ways of expressing divine power wasn't as apparent. But judging from the lore written on him in Netheril: Empire of Magic, one could infer he was indeed one of the most powerful deities. But then again, all of the deities of the Netherese pantheon were exceptionally powerful. I would peg none of them as below DvR 16, most at 17, with Shar, Mystra, and Jergal at 18. But... I prefer just to have the Lesser/Intermediate/Greater delineations at least, and at best, no clear cut categories, but rather power expressed through mythological fables, fairy tales, and Epics (in-character).
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 12:38 AM	Sigh, there's that 'should' word again. Silly, silly. ;) I actually like Mr. Miscellany's idea, there. I always wanted Kelemvor to be a sort of LN/LG champion of the sanctity of the dead. Maybe with Jergal ruling over all, and Myrkul at one side. Maybe throw in Bhaal too as the god of murder and assassins. I'm all for dark mini-pantheons, especially death-related ones. I was a huge fan of the Complete Book of Necromancers. -Why would Myrkul take a divine mantle again, when we both know he enjoys being a sentient evil artifact more? Just sayin'.
Kenzuki 12-23-07, 07:33 AM	-Why would Myrkul take a divine mantle again, when we both know he enjoys being a sentient evil artifact more? Just sayin'. You never know....maybe that's just what he wants us to think....
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 10:40 AM	You never know....maybe that's just what he wants us to think.... -A possibility. I think it was written in omniscient 3e PoV, meaning the all-knowing third-party, in which case, it isn't a lie. I'm sure if he could do both, though...
GothicDan 12-23-07, 10:56 AM	It was mentioned in 2E. :) So it's all "through the grapevine."
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 11:18 AM	-Was it? Alright then, he could be lying. Why would he lie, though? As was demonstrated in Star Wars, the bad guys don't lie. The good guys do.
GothicDan 12-23-07, 11:22 AM	Your mom lies.
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 11:33 AM	-Yeah, that's nothing new.
GothicDan 12-23-07, 11:34 AM	Mine, too. *Sad.*
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 11:40 AM	-Well, we've got responsible fathers to carry us through the mess...Wait...wait...Nope, nevermind. :raincloud
GothicDan 12-23-07, 11:48 AM	We're so dysfunctional.
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 11:52 AM	-Damn it, we should lash out for attention. Not in a violent, killing way, though. Self-depreciating humor just isn't cutting it anymore...
GothicDan 12-23-07, 11:54 AM	Perhaps a Killing Storm?
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 12:08 PM	-A Killing Storm, eh? I'd lump that in with violence and/or killing. ;) -However, Corellon Larethian wouldn't grant us the ability to cast the spell if he didn't think it was justified...
GothicDan 12-23-07, 12:09 PM	So we might as well try, right?
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 12:13 PM	-Yep. If it doesn't work, no harm done. If it does, we have a divine mandate behind us, and are justified in what we're doing.
GothicDan 12-23-07, 12:14 PM	Let's start gathering the apprentices...
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 12:21 PM	-And they would be who...?
GothicDan 12-23-07, 12:22 PM	You're in charge of High Magic Personnel. You tell me. I'm just the Researcher.
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 12:32 PM	-Ugh, I'm not good with people. Alright, I'll see what I can do.
GothicDan 12-23-07, 12:38 PM	Get Merrik. And KtM. He's crazy, we might be able to convince him he's an apprentice.
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 12:44 PM	-What a band of miscreants. Feels like Suikoden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suikoden) (Best Video Game series ever, by the way).
GothicDan 12-23-07, 12:46 PM	I don't think Merrik even has any Arcane casting levels.
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 12:50 PM	-He's a Rogue. A good Rogue, though. Not in terms of power necessarily, but we all like him.
GothicDan 12-23-07, 01:05 PM	Good-aligned, Cha of about 12.
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 01:08 PM	-That's about right. He has a Wand of One-Liners +4, though, so he is a formidably opponent, and a valuable ally.
Kenzuki 12-23-07, 03:10 PM	-Was it? Alright then, he could be lying. Why would he lie, though? As was demonstrated in Star Wars, the bad guys don't lie. The good guys do. I can save Padme! - Palpatine.
Zanan 12-23-07, 06:20 PM	Give me half a dozen more off-topic related one-liners and I will notify WizO_Shadow, who's got this cool scythe just like Myrkul. One just need to read Myrkul's entry in Faiths & Avatars to end all disuccions about upstarts like Jergal, Kelemvor or that Demon Lord something. BTW, the more important* Abyssal Lords and Archfiends were updated to 3RE in the Fiendish Codices. *That's an impartial comment. I wouldn't regard Orcus as important, some designers think otherwise.
GothicDan 12-23-07, 07:11 PM	Zanan's irrational hatred of Orcus is so cute!
Stigger 12-23-07, 07:36 PM	Break clean... :P
Kenzuki 12-24-07, 11:33 AM	I've heard both Velsharoon and Larloch are looking for the Crown of Horns.....
Zanan 12-24-07, 11:53 AM	Zanan's irrational hatred of Orcus is so cute! No hatred ... for it deserves none. Utter misunderstanding* with regards to the designer crews behind the thing though. *Coming to think of it, I cannot fathom the love of goatie by designers, DMs and players alike either. Totally beyond me. (And that is actually Zanan's alter ego speaking, who harbours no special love for Kia or any other particular deity.)
Lord Karsus 12-25-07, 01:20 AM	I can save Padme! - Palpatine. -And, Palpatine didn't lie. He had the knowledge, and the power, to save Queen Amidala. That he never intended to actually share that knowledge with Anakin is up in the air. But, he could have saved Padme, if he wanted to. *That's an impartial comment. I wouldn't regard Orcus as important, some designers think otherwise. -What, are you crazy!? Based on his exploits (knowing the last word, cheating death, being Primus, etc.), Orcus is an extremely important Deity/Demon. Dan: Another good candidate for the Killing Storm? GreenKnight. While he might resist us at first, reconditioning him would yield a potent ally...
Zanan 12-25-07, 04:57 AM	-What, are you crazy!? Based on his exploits (knowing the last word, cheating death, being Primus, etc.), Orcus is an extremely important Deity/Demon. Blah ... what do I care what he does somewhere else in the D&D multiverse in same older edition. With the same authority I could lavish about Iggwilv and say she should be a deity too, as she was able to capture a mightier demon lord than Orcus the Twice-Risen*. *With a little help of some friends in the designers' department.
Lord Karsus 12-25-07, 06:12 AM	-Lore is lore is lore, edition notwithstanding. And, if you want to be conservative, and call him a Demon, he was a deity for a limited time, as Tenebrus/Orcus was Primus the One, and instigated the Great Modron March.
Zanan 12-25-07, 06:54 AM	-Lore is lore is lore, edition notwithstanding. And, if you want to be conservative, and call him a Demon, he was a deity for a limited time, as Tenebrus/Orcus was Primus the One, and instigated the Great Modron March. Essentially, was that thing he did with Primus something FR-ish? Or something Planescapeish-AD&Dish, something which Multi-COsmolgy-fans like to point on? If it was the latter, I don't bother. As for him being a deity once somewhere, I don't bother either. He's a simple unique demon called Abyssal Lord these days and that's what is important. He does not hold dominion over death either, so he was nor is a challenge for Myrkul, a greater power at his time. IMHO, Myrkul has been a better deity for his portfolio than anything that tries to emulate him now. In "my" Realms, his chosen few have reconnected via the Servant of the Fallen feat and will try to raise him again*. * ... not that they exactly need to.
Lord Karsus 12-25-07, 07:37 AM	Essentially, was that thing he did with Primus something FR-ish? Or something Planescapeish-AD&Dish, something which Multi-COsmolgy-fans like to point on? If it was the latter, I don't bother. -That you don't bother don't change the facts...Orcus/Tenebrus was, at a point, among the most dangerous beings in the multiverse.
GoldDragon 12-25-07, 08:32 AM	I also think they should have left Ao as the overgod of the FAERUNIAN pantheon, which was his original role, and not given him dominion over the whole solar system. . Er, Ao is the Overgod/Guardian of Faurianian Realmspace and everything in it's Crystal Sphere as one of It's "projects" given to It by it's Sphere's Hierarchy and direct Superior known as "The Celestial Light" This is Original AD&D Immortal Campaign stuff and Ao is at least a "Temporal" considering how many godlings he can create to run the place (mostly into theground) in It's stead...lol As for Orcus, It's meat (from it's material form) is nice ground up with a little Cinnamon and nutmeg and grilled over coals and served on a multi grain bun. Demons are powerful beings but hardly godlings as they actually are more "alternate lifeforms" that live in the outer planes and are quite easily hurt by acid attacks and sneezing powder of all things can make them literally gag to death (also rumors that tickling works and makes them die laughing) I also remember "Murky" being tired of the godling shtick and happy to be "free" from such entanglements...so....
Zanan 12-25-07, 09:19 AM	-That you don't bother don't change the facts...Orcus/Tenebrus was, at a point, among the most dangerous beings in the multiverse. Answer the question, if you please. :cool: What "things" do on other worlds has no influence on Toril and its cosmology, now or then.
Lord Karsus 12-25-07, 03:09 PM	Answer the question, if you please. :cool: What "things" do on other worlds has no influence on Toril and its cosmology, now or then. -Events that occur in other Crystal Spheres, and/or Planes are canon in the Realms. The rule that none of that mattered was instituted in 3e. Thus, everything that occurred in 2e and 1e still stands. I don't think there's anyone else on the boards who would say otherwise. Otherwise, modules like The Great Modron March, or Dead Deities wouldn't make any sense, as portions of them took place on/in Realmspace. Now you are just being obstinate.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 12-26-07, 01:40 AM	This is messed up, I have "Of Karsus" in my name and you didn't even bother mention me *sobs* You have ANY ideas how many spanish devotees I can gather?!? BTW: Suikoden was awsome until IV (I lost interes in like 30 min.)
Lord Karsus 12-26-07, 01:43 AM	This is messed up, I have "Of Karsus" in my name and you didn't even bother mention me *sobs* -My followers are a given. ;) You have ANY ideas how many spanish devotees I can gather?!? -As long as they are girls, preferably ages 18 to 26, go for it! :D BTW: Suikoden was awsome until IV (I lost interes in like 30 min.) -They were all good. Three was the black sheep of the series (because of the gameplay, not the story- the story was very good), and the original was the best.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 12-26-07, 01:58 AM	I know, what you mean I played with Chis first and thinking "These lizard people are A$$holes ambushing us for no reason" lol And You asked just in time about those girls, there's a party next door and they have TONS... (is it TMI to say I have one in my bed right now?):D
Lord Karsus 12-26-07, 02:15 AM	I know, what you mean I played with Chis first and thinking "These lizard people are A$$holes ambushing us for no reason" lol -Yeah, the story was pretty good, and very complex at times. But, the "Triune Viewpoint" thing really ruined the game for me. Like, 30 hours into the game, I was like, "Alright, I don't give a crap anymore. Can I just have my own castle, and recruit my 108 Stars, please?" And You asked just in time about those girls, there's a party next door and they have TONS... (is it TMI to say I have one in my bed right now?):D -Dude, if you have a girl in your bed right now, you have a lot of nerve to be showing your head here at the moment. Don't you have...ahem, more important things to do? :P -Tell her I said 'Hi!'. :D
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 12-26-07, 02:33 AM	I already did my "important thing" and she feel asleep... and I can't sleep cuz she's my ex and I have no intention of hook up w her again and I feel sorta bad bout it.... Anyways... I have thread related question? Why would Jergal Give All that power and then scheme to get it back? and as to my opinion of Myrkul vs Orcus I'll say Orcus just to see some thing new. that whole deterrence between him Gratz and monkey faces is tiresome BUT Kel is the better suited for the reason stigger stated above
Lord Karsus 12-26-07, 02:39 AM	I already did my "important thing" and she feel asleep... and I can't sleep cuz she's my ex and I have no intention of hook up w her again and I feel sorta bad bout it.... Anyways... -Whoops. Um, 'anyways' is right. I have thread related question? Why would Jergal Give All that power and then scheme to get it back? -Who knows, if you want to believe all that? Perhaps, like Mystra (and I hate this line of thought), Jergal was getting too powerful, and had to distribute his power. Instead of creating Chosen, he gave the power to the Dark Three, thinking he'd be able to manipulate them, making it like he never lost his power in the first place. Perhaps the three of them stealing the Tablets of Fate to hurt Ao was a plan orchestrated by Jergal. Since we're making things up here, anything that sounds good can work.
Stigger 12-26-07, 04:03 AM	Didn't it pretty strongly hint at him being bored with "having done it all"? Call it apathy or whatever, but that seems like a pretty good motivator. Particularly when it meant he might have to fight to win it all back at some point... but why would he do that when he knew how boring it actually was to actually succeed? Personally, I see him as something of an allegory for someone like a high and mighty noble who gives it all up to join a monastary... a morality tale that the Dark Three apparently missed entirely.
Zanan 12-26-07, 04:27 AM	-Events that occur in other Crystal Spheres, and/or Planes are canon in the Realms. The rule that none of that mattered was instituted in 3e. Thus, everything that occurred in 2e and 1e still stands. I don't think there's anyone else on the boards who would say otherwise. Otherwise, modules like The Great Modron March, or Dead Deities wouldn't make any sense, as portions of them took place on/in Realmspace. Now you are just being obstinate. What is it? I simply wanted a simple answer to my simple question! :D I know what you are talking about, but these days, the facts stand, whether people like it or not. Orcus is just another demon lord, much like Lolth was once Araushnee, then "demoted" to demon and afterwards reclaiming her divinity again. (In Core and FR cosmology, BTW.) Myrkul was a mortal which ascended to greater deity status. These days ... and for quite some time now, Orcus is no FR deity, not even a Core one. And it is quite unlikely that he will become a deity any time soon, for mortal worshipers do not equate with deity-making, as one poster thought. If that was the case, many a Fiendish Lord would become a deity soon - given their various cults.
Lord Karsus 12-26-07, 04:56 AM	What is it? I simply wanted a simple answer to my simple question! :D -I was originally answering...commenting on this: Blah ... what do I care what he does somewhere else in the D&D multiverse in same older edition.
GreenKnight 12-26-07, 07:41 AM	Dan: Another good candidate for the Killing Storm? GreenKnight. While he might resist us at first, reconditioning him would yield a potent ally... Can I sign up for your Killing Storm without being reconditioned?
Lord Karsus 12-26-07, 07:53 AM	Can I sign up for your Killing Storm without being reconditioned? -Take this survey. That'll determine it.
GothicDan 12-26-07, 11:00 AM	Make sure to sign that last line there, GreenKnight...
GoldDragon 12-26-07, 01:22 PM	-And, Palpatine didn't lie. He had the knowledge, and the power, to save Queen Amidala. That he never intended to actually share that knowledge with Anakin is up in the air. But, he could have saved Padme, if he wanted to. Actually, right after Palpatine killed Master Mace (with the interference of Anikin providing the opportunity) and While Anikin was on his knees saying he will do anything if his new Master will help him save his wife, Palpatine said he didn't know how to do it but together they could find the answer. -What, are you crazy!? Based on his exploits (knowing the last word, cheating death, being Primus, etc.), Orcus is an extremely important Deity/Demon. .. Only in it's own mind. Demons are powerful Creatures that know how to use and manipulate soul and spirit essence into personal power as well as tap the "faith" of such Souls and spirits in Them into additional power, but they are are not "gods" Also, as far as "Cheating Death' like all Immortals of it's type, the only way to kill it is to manage to corner it in it's personal Home plane and do so, otherwise all that is destroyed is it's Material Form (on any other plane it is killed on) and a demon as Powerful as Orcus could build a new Material form (body) and leave it's Home plane again in little as a day (after resting from getting it's ass whooped and expending Power Points to build a new body) Of course such things I just said are in the 1st edition Player's Guide to Immortals and DM guide to Immortals that has Orcus statted as a Hierarchic Immortal of Entropy that also mentions that trying to kill a immortal like Orcus on it's own Home Plane is very difficult cause 1) That's were the Immortal in Question would be It's most Powerful and 2) An Immortal can escape from it's Home Plane and force you to kill it elsewhere thereby nullifying the "guaranteed kill" if it isn't cornered and killed fast enough on it's Home Plane Only other way to make a Immortal go permanently "Bye bye" is to force it to expend all it's Permanent "Power points" which would make it explode spontaniously and then cease to exist (Much in the same manner that Bane and Torm was doing PP combat and both "Zeroed out" then....KABOOM!!!!) "Power Points" are tied directly into the "essence" of the Immortal (soul/Spirit) and only a despereate one would use up all of it's essence to "make things happen" as 10,000 experience points equal 1 "power point " and in addition to using power points possibly causing death the amount of permaent power points availible determines a Immortal's rank (Orcus is a Hierarchic at over 5000pp) and using too much of them permanently will de-rank the immortal so most will only expend power of the temporary nature
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 12-26-07, 01:36 PM	You know all this got me worndering: What't the point of havong undead followers? they don't have a soul... lil better than contrucs in that reagard...
Stigger 12-26-07, 02:17 PM	Shock Troops who don't question orders... and the whole horror/terror factor doesn't hurt much either. Though I don't really get the appeal either to be honest...
GreenKnight 12-26-07, 02:21 PM	-Take this survey. That'll determine it. ...I hate filling out forms. None of the other Killing Storms I've been a part of have been nearly as hard to join as this one.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 12-26-07, 02:41 PM	Shock Troops who don't question orders... and the whole horror/terror factor doesn't hurt much either. Though I don't really get the appeal either to be honest... Good point.:embarrass But as a cult? I mean what Jergal/Orcus/myrkul can offer some one that can technically live forever and doesn't have a soul? Full health, dental, steady job? I'm not trying to be a smarta$$ I just want to "grasp it" u know... And GK don't complain about the paperwork (you have to see the "seraph" contract), that not only to participate in this Killing Storm but is a full year's membership starting the day you sign in! And belive me when I tell you there'll be quite a few before 4E! and don't mind the small print....:D
Lord Karsus 12-26-07, 02:54 PM	Actually, right after Palpatine killed Master Mace (with the interference of Anikin providing the opportunity) and While Anikin was on his knees saying he will do anything if his new Master will help him save his wife, Palpatine said he didn't know how to do it but together they could find the answer. -Alright. He still did not lie, however. Only in it's own mind. -And in the history books. Remember, Orcus/Tenebrus slew three deities, ordered a Modron March, caused the power of the Last Word to become weakened after the entire debacle. Saying that Orcus isn't an important entity is silly. ...I hate filling out forms. None of the other Killing Storms I've been a part of have been nearly as hard to join as this one. -We're particular.
GreenKnight 12-26-07, 03:49 PM	-We're particular. Why does a Killing Storm require so much paperwork? And what's up with some of these survey questions? "Have you ever milked two score and five Feytouched Cooshees with gossamer wings?" "Have you ever born witness to the birth of an albino hermaphrodite ewe lamb"? The hell?!? Yeah, I think I'm gonna go ahead and call it. Your Killing Storm sucks!
GothicDan 12-26-07, 08:31 PM	Put him on the OTHER list, LK....
Lord Karsus 12-27-07, 12:07 AM	Why does a Killing Storm require so much paperwork? And what's up with some of these survey questions? "Have you ever milked two score and five Feytouched Cooshees with gossamer wings?" "Have you ever born witness to the birth of an albino hermaphrodite ewe lamb"? The hell?!? -Quickly scrolling down, it looked like you said something about touching coolies. Heh. :P Yeah, I think I'm gonna go ahead and call it. Your Killing Storm sucks! -I outgha whip out that Killing Storm right now, and show you how utterly massive and awesome it is! Put him on the OTHER list, LK.... -Consider it done. Hopefully, GreenKnight doesn't have any...accidents. To paraphrase Miscellany, you don't mess with a Sun Elven Selu'Taar infused with the essence of Karsus from Brooklyn...:incog:
GothicDan 12-27-07, 12:10 AM	Or a Sun Elven Selu'Taar infused with the essence of Physics and Latin. I'm also slightly higher level than LK.
Lord Karsus 12-27-07, 12:12 AM	I'm also slightly higher level than LK. -My sheer greatness makes up for that though. Remember though- I also come with KtM, and a random Karsus-infused Beholder Mage, who's out there, somewhere.
GothicDan 12-27-07, 12:14 AM	I'm pretty awesome too, you know.
Lord Karsus 12-27-07, 01:05 AM	-That is true. You're not not quite as awesome as me, though. That's play, though. We all have our own strengths and weaknesses. I'm not good at math, for example.
GothicDan 12-27-07, 01:18 AM	I'm not good at doing things at times for fear of not looking perfect when doing them. DAMN PERFECTIONISM.
Stigger 12-27-07, 04:09 AM	Dan simply looks perfect... while I am Perfect. Its a state of being, not of looking... Silly Dan. :P
GothicDan 12-27-07, 10:35 PM	AHAHAHAHAHA, no. I look far, far from perfect. In fact, my appearance is the least perfect thing about me. I just bought ANOTHER set of 25 dollar sports head phones for jogging. If these ones blow, too, I'm going to write someone a nasty letter.
Stigger 12-28-07, 06:45 AM	I wasn't referring to physical appearance. You're doomed in that respect... :P Bit of advice though, hang out with repulsively ugly people, it'll make you look better. :D
GothicDan 12-28-07, 11:21 AM	That doesn't work so well in a fraternity with even mildly athletic people. I'm going to go cry myself to sleep now. Thanks, Stigger. :(
Lord Karsus 12-28-07, 12:34 PM	That doesn't work so well in a fraternity with even mildly athletic people. I'm going to go cry myself to sleep now. Thanks, Stigger. :( -Which list is he on? Might as well get updated with all of the book keeping.
GothicDan 12-28-07, 12:39 PM	He's on the "Mean to Dan" list.
Lord Karsus 12-28-07, 12:59 PM	-Check.
Stigger 12-28-07, 02:22 PM	Glad to be of help Dan. :) :P And can we upgrade that to the 'Cruel to Dan, but kind to Bunnies' list? I'm a little off the last few days, but past performance should qualify me for it... :D