Netheril and Hebrew [Archive] - Wizards Community

Netheril and Hebrew [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lord Karsus
04-16-06, 02:09 AM -I was staring at the word L'olam, and noticed it looked a lot like Ioulaum. I did some further research, and things got a little stranger. Take all of it as you will...

L’olam (Forever): Ioulaum
-Ioulaum has lived for a very, very long time
Ka’as (Anger): Karsus
-Karsus did have bouts of madness and anger
Nesher (Eagle): Nether
-Nether was the King of Seventon, much like eagles are known as “Kings of the Birds”
Iyun (Investigative Research): Conginio Ioun
-Most of his life was spend researching and perfecting his Ioun Stones
Halvah (Jewish Sweet): Halavar
-Halavar was a LG Arcanist, liked by many, like halvah is a sweet liked by many
Nokhri (Foreigner): Noanar
-Noanar was a foreigner Arcanist from the South
Lord shadow35
04-16-06, 02:26 AM Yo that is messed up! Damn! Please don't find one for shadow.
Lord Karsus
04-16-06, 02:32 AM Yo that is messed up! Damn! Please don't find one for shadow.

-I wouldn't say it was "messed up", but it is it strange coincidence.

-I wouldn't be able to look up Lord Shadow's name, because we don't know his real name. Lord Shadow, obviously, is not his actual name. Telamont might not be his real name either, since Telamont and Lord Shadow might not be the same people.
Kadasbrass
04-16-06, 02:58 AM There may be a connection. Its not easy coming up with a unless supply of names for countless characters from countless books. Sometimes inspiration is burrowing a little here and there and then adding something new to it.
Lord Karsus
04-16-06, 03:01 AM There may be a connection. Its not easy coming up with a unless supply of names for countless characters from countless books. Sometimes inspiration is burrowing a little here and there and then adding something new to it.

-I'm surprised that no one has ever realized this connection, or at least never chose to say anything about it.
Lord Karsus
04-16-06, 03:25 AM Umm ... yeah, whatever you reckon. Does it make people feel like they have a greater "handle" on the Realms when they can make real world = Realms connections of this type?

-- George Krashos

-Krash, I am 100% against the entire "Real World Realms Equivalent" kinds of things. Like I said, the word L’olam really reminded me of Ioulaum. The meaning could have some connotations towards Ioulaum. And, then when I looked up a few more people, I found more similarities. I'm not saying there is, or should be a connection between Netheril and the Jewish people, but I find it an interesting coindicence that so many names from Netheril seem to be taken from Hebrew. I am also "amazed" that no one else seems to have stumbled upon this.
Old Sage
04-16-06, 03:33 AM -Krash, I am 100% against the entire "Real World Realms Equivalent" kinds of things.Well, it's not really a question of being "for" or "against" it as such. Ed and other FR game designers and authors have all said that Faerun is mostly not based on -- or rather similiar to -- Earth cultures, except for the parts that TSR added on.
Lord Karsus
04-16-06, 03:37 AM Well, it's not really a question of being "for" or "against" it as such. Ed and other FR game designers and authors have all said that Faerun is mostly not based on -- or rather similiar to -- Earth cultures, except for the parts that TSR added on.

-Let me clarify then. I am against others thinking that Faerūnian cultures/places are based, and/or have real world equivalents. That seems to cover all bases.
ClobberinTime
04-16-06, 10:09 AM Look, first of all, whatever anyone says or would like to believe about their own work it is completely impossible for FR cultures to not be a dim reflection of those of earth. Its just not the way the human brain/mind operates to be able to pull something out of whole cloth like that and re-weave it in a completely original way.

On another note, almost all FR names are chosen to be phonetically possible, i.e. they all have at least one vowel, etc.... You can probably find words that are phonetically similar to those cited above in virtually evey language of the world, not just hebrew, so I wouldn't make too much of a big deal out of it. Just pick up a forgein language dictionary and go to town.
JaiaDrottsingr
04-16-06, 01:43 PM Example for English: The Simbul, English variant: symbol, The Simbul is a SYMBOL of many things to those of Shadowdale.
:P
Old Sparky
04-16-06, 03:56 PM -Let me clarify then. I am against others thinking that Faerūnian cultures/places are based, and/or have real world equivalents. That seems to cover all bases.
I'm against you being against that. It helps some people identify with the fantasy culture when it has similarities to real-world cultures... some DMs will throw an appropriate accent (if capable) into the speech of NPCs from such cultures, and look at historical texts to get an idea of fashion, general way of life, laws of the land, etc.

The thing about the Realms is that its so damned big that only a handful of areas get so much detail that they can stand on their own without a real-world equivalent... these other places leave players & DMs alike scratching their heads trying to fill in the blanks --unless we're supposed to assume the details of life & culture in Waterdeep apply to every city, kingdom, and broad-spanning region throughout Faerun (something I hope is not the case).

With the exception Mulhorand which has its culture imported from another world that happens to resemble Egypt an awful lot, I don't think we're meant to assume that the Moonshae Isles (which seem to have alot of Celtic flavor) actually stemmed from Earth's Celtic culture... or the Bedine in the Anauroch desert are supposed to be from Earth's middle east, and so on. They share similarities which helps people get a feel for region, but they are independant of one another.

Of course, there ARE definitely ties between Earth and Toril. This was always the case and the intention of the world designer. But if mythological beings from our world retreated to Faerun and happened to bring some of Earth's culture and mythology with them, that certainly doesn't ruin a thing about the Forgotten Realms for me... it requires no more or less suspension of disbelief than the idea that Elminster visits Ed Greenwood here on Earth, sometimes hiding the author so he can meet with other wizards, and shares information with Ed to be passed along to us in game form in official published supplements. Its no big deal, but if any given issue doesn't sit well with a given DM or game group, the solution is simple: change it for your game, don't get annoyed that other people enjoy it.
JaiaDrottsingr
04-17-06, 08:05 PM The Black Jungle is a real place, and its inhabited by many fearsome creatures. Not many could survive there, either.
Shemeska the Marauder
04-18-06, 12:42 AM I think you're finding connections were none are present. You can take a sampling of words from any Faerunian culture and if you look long enough you can find apparent similarities to words in real world languages. That said, you can then rationalize some sort of connection therein, but it doesn't mean that there was any connection in the first place.

The human brain likes finding patterns, be it finding a giant face or kermit the frog in martian bluffs and craters, or hebrew words in Netherese names and places. In either case, there's no alien face or muppets on mars, nor I think any hebrew influence in Netheril. ;)
GothicDan
04-18-06, 10:58 AM With the exception Mulhorand which has its culture imported from another world that happens to resemble Egypt an awful lot, I don't think we're meant to assume that the Moonshae Isles (which seem to have alot of Celtic flavor) actually stemmed from Earth's Celtic culture... or the Bedine in the Anauroch desert are supposed to be from Earth's middle east, and so on. They share similarities which helps people get a feel for region, but they are independant of one another.

Note that both of these cultures were tacked on later by TSR and were not a part of Ed's original Realms.

As has been said, Ed works in general cultural/psychological archetypes, which all human beings, regardless of culture or history, share to a point. To extend these similarities beyond this very basic root is to try to see symbolism/representation in the Realms where there was not supposed to be, and which (as far as I can tell) there is not.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lord Karsus 04-16-06, 02:09 AM	-I was staring at the word L'olam, and noticed it looked a lot like Ioulaum. I did some further research, and things got a little stranger. Take all of it as you will... L’olam (Forever): Ioulaum -Ioulaum has lived for a very, very long time Ka’as (Anger): Karsus -Karsus did have bouts of madness and anger Nesher (Eagle): Nether -Nether was the King of Seventon, much like eagles are known as “Kings of the Birds” Iyun (Investigative Research): Conginio Ioun -Most of his life was spend researching and perfecting his Ioun Stones Halvah (Jewish Sweet): Halavar -Halavar was a LG Arcanist, liked by many, like halvah is a sweet liked by many Nokhri (Foreigner): Noanar -Noanar was a foreigner Arcanist from the South
Lord shadow35 04-16-06, 02:26 AM	Yo that is messed up! Damn! Please don't find one for shadow.
Lord Karsus 04-16-06, 02:32 AM	Yo that is messed up! Damn! Please don't find one for shadow. -I wouldn't say it was "messed up", but it is it strange coincidence. -I wouldn't be able to look up Lord Shadow's name, because we don't know his real name. Lord Shadow, obviously, is not his actual name. Telamont might not be his real name either, since Telamont and Lord Shadow might not be the same people.
Kadasbrass 04-16-06, 02:58 AM	There may be a connection. Its not easy coming up with a unless supply of names for countless characters from countless books. Sometimes inspiration is burrowing a little here and there and then adding something new to it.
Lord Karsus 04-16-06, 03:01 AM	There may be a connection. Its not easy coming up with a unless supply of names for countless characters from countless books. Sometimes inspiration is burrowing a little here and there and then adding something new to it. -I'm surprised that no one has ever realized this connection, or at least never chose to say anything about it.
Lord Karsus 04-16-06, 03:25 AM	Umm ... yeah, whatever you reckon. Does it make people feel like they have a greater "handle" on the Realms when they can make real world = Realms connections of this type? -- George Krashos -Krash, I am 100% against the entire "Real World Realms Equivalent" kinds of things. Like I said, the word L’olam really reminded me of Ioulaum. The meaning could have some connotations towards Ioulaum. And, then when I looked up a few more people, I found more similarities. I'm not saying there is, or should be a connection between Netheril and the Jewish people, but I find it an interesting coindicence that so many names from Netheril seem to be taken from Hebrew. I am also "amazed" that no one else seems to have stumbled upon this.
Old Sage 04-16-06, 03:33 AM	-Krash, I am 100% against the entire "Real World Realms Equivalent" kinds of things.Well, it's not really a question of being "for" or "against" it as such. Ed and other FR game designers and authors have all said that Faerun is mostly not based on -- or rather similiar to -- Earth cultures, except for the parts that TSR added on.
Lord Karsus 04-16-06, 03:37 AM	Well, it's not really a question of being "for" or "against" it as such. Ed and other FR game designers and authors have all said that Faerun is mostly not based on -- or rather similiar to -- Earth cultures, except for the parts that TSR added on. -Let me clarify then. I am against others thinking that Faerūnian cultures/places are based, and/or have real world equivalents. That seems to cover all bases.
ClobberinTime 04-16-06, 10:09 AM	Look, first of all, whatever anyone says or would like to believe about their own work it is completely impossible for FR cultures to not be a dim reflection of those of earth. Its just not the way the human brain/mind operates to be able to pull something out of whole cloth like that and re-weave it in a completely original way. On another note, almost all FR names are chosen to be phonetically possible, i.e. they all have at least one vowel, etc.... You can probably find words that are phonetically similar to those cited above in virtually evey language of the world, not just hebrew, so I wouldn't make too much of a big deal out of it. Just pick up a forgein language dictionary and go to town.
JaiaDrottsingr 04-16-06, 01:43 PM	Example for English: The Simbul, English variant: symbol, The Simbul is a SYMBOL of many things to those of Shadowdale. :P
Old Sparky 04-16-06, 03:56 PM	-Let me clarify then. I am against others thinking that Faerūnian cultures/places are based, and/or have real world equivalents. That seems to cover all bases. I'm against you being against that. It helps some people identify with the fantasy culture when it has similarities to real-world cultures... some DMs will throw an appropriate accent (if capable) into the speech of NPCs from such cultures, and look at historical texts to get an idea of fashion, general way of life, laws of the land, etc. The thing about the Realms is that its so damned big that only a handful of areas get so much detail that they can stand on their own without a real-world equivalent... these other places leave players & DMs alike scratching their heads trying to fill in the blanks --unless we're supposed to assume the details of life & culture in Waterdeep apply to every city, kingdom, and broad-spanning region throughout Faerun (something I hope is not the case). With the exception Mulhorand which has its culture imported from another world that happens to resemble Egypt an awful lot, I don't think we're meant to assume that the Moonshae Isles (which seem to have alot of Celtic flavor) actually stemmed from Earth's Celtic culture... or the Bedine in the Anauroch desert are supposed to be from Earth's middle east, and so on. They share similarities which helps people get a feel for region, but they are independant of one another. Of course, there ARE definitely ties between Earth and Toril. This was always the case and the intention of the world designer. But if mythological beings from our world retreated to Faerun and happened to bring some of Earth's culture and mythology with them, that certainly doesn't ruin a thing about the Forgotten Realms for me... it requires no more or less suspension of disbelief than the idea that Elminster visits Ed Greenwood here on Earth, sometimes hiding the author so he can meet with other wizards, and shares information with Ed to be passed along to us in game form in official published supplements. Its no big deal, but if any given issue doesn't sit well with a given DM or game group, the solution is simple: change it for your game, don't get annoyed that other people enjoy it.
JaiaDrottsingr 04-17-06, 08:05 PM	The Black Jungle is a real place, and its inhabited by many fearsome creatures. Not many could survive there, either.
Shemeska the Marauder 04-18-06, 12:42 AM	I think you're finding connections were none are present. You can take a sampling of words from any Faerunian culture and if you look long enough you can find apparent similarities to words in real world languages. That said, you can then rationalize some sort of connection therein, but it doesn't mean that there was any connection in the first place. The human brain likes finding patterns, be it finding a giant face or kermit the frog in martian bluffs and craters, or hebrew words in Netherese names and places. In either case, there's no alien face or muppets on mars, nor I think any hebrew influence in Netheril. ;)
GothicDan 04-18-06, 10:58 AM	With the exception Mulhorand which has its culture imported from another world that happens to resemble Egypt an awful lot, I don't think we're meant to assume that the Moonshae Isles (which seem to have alot of Celtic flavor) actually stemmed from Earth's Celtic culture... or the Bedine in the Anauroch desert are supposed to be from Earth's middle east, and so on. They share similarities which helps people get a feel for region, but they are independant of one another. Note that both of these cultures were tacked on later by TSR and were not a part of Ed's original Realms. As has been said, Ed works in general cultural/psychological archetypes, which all human beings, regardless of culture or history, share to a point. To extend these similarities beyond this very basic root is to try to see symbolism/representation in the Realms where there was not supposed to be, and which (as far as I can tell) there is not.