Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Foxlore 04-06-04, 03:36 AM	I am wondering about the events that occur in the game Neverwinter Nights (official campaigns). Specifically - The Plague and the war against Neverwinter. and the raising of Undrentide. Does anyone know what years these events take place in the FR timeline? :confused:
Brenigin 04-06-04, 03:53 AM	Well, from memory the original NWN takes place in 1372. However, events in those games aren't neccessarily part of the 'real' Realms timeline. The default answer is usually "think of the games as one particular DM's version of FR".
Foxlore 04-06-04, 04:37 AM	Thanks Brenigin, Yes, I know the 'default' answer he he, but as my players tend to be well versed in FR lore, I like to be as accurate as I can or they wil roast me at the stake for heresy :D
Dargoth 04-06-04, 05:09 AM	I doubt the NWN games will ever be Canon (especially after what happans to Waterdeep at the end of Hordes of the Underdark)
Sammael_the_Chosen 04-06-04, 06:51 AM	Both the Bhaalspawn storyline and Neverwinter Nights, Shadows of Undrentide, and Hordes of the Underdark plots are non-canonical. They never happened.
Dargoth 04-06-04, 07:58 AM	Originally posted by Sammael_the_Chosen Both the Bhaalspawn storyline and Neverwinter Nights, Shadows of Undrentide, and Hordes of the Underdark plots are non-canonical. They never happened. *Clang* Hey someone dropped a Gauntlet :D
Kuje31 04-06-04, 01:18 PM	Originally posted by Sammael_the_Chosen Both the Bhaalspawn storyline and Neverwinter Nights, Shadows of Undrentide, and Hordes of the Underdark plots are non-canonical. They never happened. Dargoth, I'll take that gauntlet and shout out WRONG! The Bhaalspawn ARE canon because 1) They have three novels written for them. 2) The characters from the novels were stat'd up in Dragon, as well as the Bhaalspawn template, as well as the info about Candlekeep. Dragon has always been official and canon for FR material. 3) There was also Volo's Guide to BG II which Ed wrote and ties into the game. 4) Two of the three novels are also listed on the official timeline found on the WOTC boards found at: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/fr/fictionlist&tablesort=1 So yes the Bhaalspawn are canon because the novels take place in 1368 and 1369.
Faraer 04-06-04, 01:27 PM	Sigh. I really don't care about this, but, The most definitive statement about the 'canon' policy is Jim Butler's from (IIRC) 1999, which confirms that TSR didn't distinguish between mediums as regards canonicity. More recently, comments from Rich Baker and WotC customer service indicate the same policy is in place. Basically, the idea that computer games (or novels, or any other medium) are non-canon has never been anything except fan invention. (Which doesn't mean WotC's attitude to licensed stuff is identical to its own stuff, it isn't.)
Cunning Linguist 04-06-04, 01:50 PM	The only thing non canon-ish, would be the super high level adventures.. Like throne of Bhaal, and Hordes of the Underdark. Both these two have realm shattering events, and would mess up the entire realms if they where canon. Just think about the PC that won Hordes of the Underdark, he went on to unite most of the lands in Faerun under his rule. How would you fit that into the normal realms?
Kuje31 04-06-04, 01:56 PM	Originally posted by Cunning Linguist The only thing non canon-ish, would be the super high level adventures.. Like throne of Bhaal, and Hordes of the Underdark. Both these two have realm shattering events, and would mess up the entire realms if they where canon. Well since Abdul (SP?) gave away the rest of Bhaal's power at the end of the novels, he's just a normal mortal now. I forgot how it ended in the game, but I know how it ended in the novels.
Sammael_the_Chosen 04-06-04, 03:08 PM	Here's why they are not canon: The Iron Throne, as described in detail in Lords of Darkness, is a completely different organization than the one depicted in the original Baldur's Gate game. No Duke of Baldur's Gate was recently assassinated. Alaundo's prophecies concerning Bhaal aren't mentioned anywhere in the canonical materials. Furthermore, it is very well known what happened to Bhaal's essence after his demise, and it had nothing to do with "creating a score of mortal progeny." Dragon's "Sillicon Sorcery" line of articles are not canon. They present optional rules inspired by popular computer games. Saradush was not destroyed in a siege of Bhaalspawn-led fire giants. The Twisted Rune was not destroyed. Nor were the Shadow Thieves of Amn. Both options were possible in Shadows of Amn. Athkatla looks nothing like it was presented in BG2. I implore everyone to re-read the appropriate sourcebooks. Bhaal's domain wasn't in the Abyss, but in Gehenna. Demogorgon was never imprisoned in the Watcher's Keep. Moving on to NWN, there was no plague there last year. The reptilian creator race is just as dead now as it was ten years ago, and there are no indications that they are going to make a comeback any time soon. Further, NWN utilized two-way time-travel, which is clearly prohibited by Mystra. Shade is the only flying Netherese city around. Surely, PGtF would have mentioned something about another flying city appearing out of nowhere and then plummeting to its destruction? I am not even going to comment on the HotU's plot, as it clearly takes place in an alternative FR multiverse.
Faraer 04-06-04, 03:20 PM	It's wholly arbitrary for you to decide that 'canonical' is defined by 'repeated in a(nother) sourcebook' and 'completely consistent with previous lore'. Many novels and sourcebooks are non-canonical by those measures. When Jim Butler said explicitly on REALMS-L that everything with the Realms logo was canonical, the events of Baldur's Gate weren't documented in sourcebooks then either. I gots no more to say on dis!
Kuje31 04-06-04, 03:27 PM	Originally posted by Sammael_the_Chosen Here's why they are not canon: The Iron Throne, as described in detail in Lords of Darkness, is a completely different organization than the one depicted in the original Baldur's Gate game. No Duke of Baldur's Gate was recently assassinated. Alaundo's prophecies concerning Bhaal aren't mentioned anywhere in the canonical materials. Furthermore, it is very well known what happened to Bhaal's essence after his demise, and it had nothing to do with "creating a score of mortal progeny." Dragon's "Sillicon Sorcery" line of articles are not canon. They present optional rules inspired by popular computer games. Saradush was not destroyed in a siege of Bhaalspawn-led fire giants. The Twisted Rune was not destroyed. Nor were the Shadow Thieves of Amn. Both options were possible in Shadows of Amn. Athkatla looks nothing like it was presented in BG2. I implore everyone to re-read the appropriate sourcebooks. Bhaal's domain wasn't in the Abyss, but in Gehenna. Demogorgon was never imprisoned in the Watcher's Keep. Think you misunderstood. The Bhaalspawn are canon because again the novels made them so, as did the stat's for the characters of the novels that were written up in Dragon, as well as the sourcebook and WOTC's timeline. Stat's from FR novels, comics, and other material that appeared in Dragon have always been considered canon. Take for example the Spider Queen novels, the stats for those are in Dragon and they are canon. This is no different then stat'ing Abdul from the canon Bhaalspawn novels. No the games themselves are not canon, but the Bhaalspawn are canon because of the reasons I listed already. Also the Bhaalspawn novels are canon because they take place in 1368 and 1369. So the author made some errors. It's not like no one makes errors in the novels or the sourcebooks. :) I mean really, Cyric has had a portfolio he shouldn't have had for over three sourcebooks now. Also its the same situation as the old SSI games. The modules and novels are canon. Or with the Pool of Radiance game that came out a few years ago. The novel and sourcebook are canon and Carrie made A LOT of errors in that novel, but it is still canon.
Bifford 04-06-04, 03:34 PM	Don't forget, BG2 and NWN both use a Great Wheel multiverse (Cyric said he lives on Pandemonium; in HotU you are told of Elysium and Sigil). FRCS now has its own cosmology; another reason why the games are not canon.
Kuje31 04-06-04, 03:50 PM	For the last time, I never claimed the games as canon. But the Bhaalspawn are canon because there are more then four canon sources that say the Bhaalspawn events did take place. The novels. The Volo's Guide to BG II and as much as some one doesn't want to admit it that book, according to Ed, was only written because of the events of the BG games and this was also why it was renamed from the original name Volo was going to call it. The timeline found on the WOTC site, and the Dragon articles both stats for the novel characters, as well as the Bhaalspawn template. If we are going to base canon material on some thing that uses the Wheel/Ring, then every 1e and 2e book is not canon, as well as the 3/3.5 books that still have errors in them to places that don't exist in FR's planes but do in the Wheel/Ring. Like the Underdark sourcebook has such an error.
Taelohn 04-06-04, 03:56 PM	Just think about the PC that won Hordes of the Underdark, he went on to unite most of the lands in Faerun under his rule. How would you fit that into the normal realms? That was only one of dozens of possible outcomes. Your alignment, love interests, what you did or didn't do in past quests, what you choose at the very end - all of those things give alternate endings. I don't see why a DM couldn't easily stick any number of characters from those games into their own - Sharwyn, Xanos, Deekin, Aribeth, whatever. They're all good NPCs. Likewise, the games are full of cool items with various stories behind them - those could also be nice to stick into a game now and then. There are a few things I would avoid, however. In the original game, you can slay Klauth and even Obould - definitely not canon, espically the latter one. The question as to why no deities intervened to battle Mephistopheles is something else that doesn't seem quite right to me. So yes, it would be more accurate just to look at it as "another DM's FR campaign" rather than as storyline canon. But that doesn't mean you couldn't take bits of it now and then for your own games, if you wanted to - there's some nice stuff there.
Sammael_the_Chosen 04-06-04, 03:59 PM	So, according to you, can a published novel ever err and be considered non-canonical? For instance, if I were to write and publish a novel under WotC that detailed the destruction of the city of Baldur's Gate by Larloch and his minions, and the subsequent forming of an undead empire in the Western Heartlands, and no sourcebook whatsoever made any references to my story, would you consider it canon? This is another fine example of why mixing novels and sourcebooks is the worst money-grubbing idea ever.
Sammael_the_Chosen 04-06-04, 04:00 PM	Originally posted by Taelohn So yes, it would be more accurate just to look at it as "another DM's FR campaign" rather than as storyline canon. But that doesn't mean you couldn't take bits of it now and then for your own games, if you wanted to - there's some nice stuff there. Thank you.
Kuje31 04-06-04, 04:08 PM	Originally posted by Sammael_the_Chosen So, according to you, can a published novel ever err and be considered non-canonical? For instance, if I were to write and publish a novel under WotC that detailed the destruction of the city of Baldur's Gate by Larloch and his minions, and the subsequent forming of an undead empire in the Western Heartlands, and no sourcebook whatsoever made any references to my story, would you consider it canon? This is another fine example of why mixing novels and sourcebooks is the worst money-grubbing idea ever. Yes some novels are considered non canon. The Double Diamond Triangle are non canon, and Once Around the Realms might be as well but WOTC can't make up thier mind. However, novels have ALWAYS been canon in FR unless noted otherwise. Heck the first official canon material printed (except for the articles in Dragon) was the novel, Darkwalker on Moonshae. If WOTC let you publish such a novel, it would be canon unless they say it wasn't. I mean even look at the 3e products, the Spider Queen novels are canon, the Shade novels are canon, etc. Novels have ALWAYS been canon in FR, unless WOTC says certain one's are not, like the Double Diamond ones. Taelohn, the novels, articles in Dragon, and the sourcebook are not another DM's campaign, they are part of the official canon FR material. Now the games you could say that they are like that but the Bhaalspawn themselves are canon in FR's history.
Taelohn 04-06-04, 04:27 PM	Sorry, I should have clarified: I was referring specifically to Neverwinter Nights (and it's two expansions) only.
Kuje31 04-06-04, 04:30 PM	Originally posted by Taelohn Sorry, I should have clarified: I was referring specifically to Neverwinter Nights (and it's two expansions) only. Forgiven then. :) :angel:
Dargoth 04-06-04, 07:49 PM	I think the arguement here is Are the PC games Canon or just official in 3ed? I can tell you that Pool of Radiance and Curse of the Azure Bonds are both Canon AND Official both have references in the FRC (Dracondos tower is abandoned on Haptooth hill and the city of Phlan has been liberated) I can tell Attack on Myth Drannor is both Canon and Official theres a PnP mpdule that makes reference to it. NWN, Shadows of Undertide and Hordes of the Underdark are OFFICIAL but NOT Canon, they have the FR logo which makes them official FR products but that doesnt make them Canon As far as Im concerned if it doesnt appear in a source book and he FR timeline then its not Canon. Ive got 20 bucks that says when the Waterdeep source boook comes out next year there will be NO MENTION OF THE EVENTS IN HORDES OF THE UNDERDARK. Mephistopheles never went on a rampage through the city of waterdeep and the city was never razed to the ground Anyone want to take me up on tht bet?
Kuje31 04-06-04, 08:12 PM	Originally posted by Dargoth As far as Im concerned if it doesnt appear in a source book and he FR timeline then its not Canon. Ive got 20 bucks that says when the Waterdeep source boook comes out next year there will be NO MENTION OF THE EVENTS IN HORDES OF THE UNDERDARK. Mephistopheles never went on a rampage through the city of waterdeep and the city was never razed to the ground Anyone want to take me up on tht bet? Then none of the Sembia novels are canon for you? Or how about the Liriel books since they don't technically appear in the time line..... :) But I agree with you that none of the NwN's stuff is canon, because there are no sourcebooks, novels, or any Dragon material for them. How about the new Rage novel, its not in the timeline.... :)
Taelohn 04-06-04, 08:28 PM	Mephistopheles never went on a rampage through the city of waterdeep and the city was never razed to the ground Well... he damaged quite a bit of it, but certainly didn't raze it to the ground. They could fix things up without too much trouble, if needbe, and I don't think it would make that much of a change on the world if they were to include it as canon (note: theoretically). But I agree with you that none of the NwN's stuff is canon, because there are no sourcebooks, novels, or any Dragon material for them. Well, Magic of Faerun includes an item called the Moonstone Mask (as the brothel in Neverwinter), and more importantly, Aribeth's Ring. I'm not sure which was produced first (I think MoF, but I'd have to check), but the fact that the flavour text/history on her ring was omitted in the book is sort of interesting... Just since I have a feeling that someone will read this without reading my posts above, and think I'm arguing the wrong point... I know the games aren't canon; I'm just saying that they could be (or at least parts of them, as the DM wishes), without any real stretch.
Kuje31 04-06-04, 08:50 PM	Originally posted by Taelohn Well, Magic of Faerun includes an item called the Moonstone Mask (as the brothel in Neverwinter), and more importantly, Aribeth's Ring. I'm not sure which was produced first (I think MoF, but I'd have to check), but the fact that the flavour text/history on her ring was omitted in the book is sort of interesting... Your right, my knowledge of NwN is very vague since I have never played it, since it didn't like my puter, and I forgot about Aribeth. However, I do have the guide books for it, because they are good realmslore. :)
Taelohn 04-06-04, 09:04 PM	Let's see what I remember... Aribeth was a female half-elf, born not far from the Neverwinter area. When she was young, both her parents and most of her village were destroyed by orcs; but she survived, set on revenge. She took her bow and began hunting them up in the mountains. One day she grew too tired and collapsed in the snow. Before she could die, Tyr (or an avatar thereof) picked her up and took her to one of his temples. She stayed there and became a paladin. If you find Aribeth's Ring in the game, it mentions that it used to belong to her, but she either lost it or gave it away (I forget which) sometime before she came to the temple. It also gave SR 17, just like the one in Magic of Faerun - which had no story attached to it at all. So either the developers of Neverwinter Nights were flipping through that book, saw the ring and decided to base a character on it; or the writers of Magic of Faerun put the ring in as a nod to the game. The latter seems more likely, but Magic of Faerun is copyrighted 2001, Neverwinter Nights is copyrighted 2002... hm. I copied her stats as they were at the end of the campaign when I played it, then fixed them up to be in-line with normal D&D rules (where discrepancies existed): Lady Aribeth de Tylmarande: Female half-elf Paladin 19/Ex-Blackguard 6; CR 25; Medium humanoid; HD 19d10+6d10+125; 262 hp; Init +2; Spd 30 ft.; AC 37, touch 17, flat-footed 35; Base Atk +23; Grp +30; Atk Astral Blade +40 melee (1d8+15/19-20 plus 2d6 sonic); Full Atk Astral Blade +40/+35/+30/+25 melee (1d8+15/19-20 plus 2d6 sonic); SA smite good 4/day, sneak attack +1d6, turn undead; SQ low-light vision, aura of courage, detect evil, divine grace, divine health, lay on hands, remove disease 5/week, special mount, use poison; AL LG; SV Fort +31, Ref +20, Will +19; Str 24, Dex 15, Con 20, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 29. Skills and Feats: Appraise +1, Bluff +10, Concentration +6, Craft (armorsmithing) +1, Craft (trapmaking) +1, Craft (weaponsmithing) +1, Diplomacy +12, Gather Information +11, Heal +6, Hide +15, Intimidate +23, Knowledge (religion) +2, Listen +3, Move Silently +1, Ride +5, Search +2, Sense Motive +2, Spot +2; Cleave, Divine Might, Divine Shield, Epic Toughness, Improved Critical (longsword), Improved Shield Bash, Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (longsword). Paladin Spells Per Day (4/3/3/2; save DC 11 + spell level) Possessions: Amulet of Natural Armor +5, Aribeth's Armor (+6 leather armor, attacker makes Fort DC 20 or is slowed), Astral Blade (+8 keen longsword, +2d6 sonic), Belt of Giant Strength +6, Boots of Striding +6, Bracers of Dexterity +6, Demonflesh Shield (+5 large steel shield, cold/acid/fire/electricity/sonic resistance 10), Nymph Cloak +6, Ring of Protection +5
Archangel 04-07-04, 04:20 AM	There is one problem: That is PC equipment, not NPC. NPC have much less equipment. With that equipment her CR rises by 1 or 2!
Taelohn 04-07-04, 04:00 PM	Ah, that's a good point. Although, in practice I think challenge ratings for PCs/NPCs should increase more slowly at epic levels, anyway. Compare the NPCs in the back of the ELH to monsters of comprable CR. And PCs are certainly more challenging than NPCs of the same level, given that ever-increasing gap in treasure. But yeah, the items I gave her would be too much for even a PC of that level... I'll weaken them a bit. But hey, Larloch has over 3,000,000 gp of items in addition to his standard ones, and they didn't change his CR. ;) Incidently, Aribeth's Armor is not leather; I just listed it as such since it has the same base AC, spell failure, max Dex, armor check, and etc. as leather armor does. It's actually made of metal - the low base AC is because it's just designed to show off her boo-er, because of it's unique design. :D
Mirtek 04-07-04, 04:35 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 Well since Abdul (SP?) gave away the rest of Bhaal's power at the end of the novels, he's just a normal mortal now. I forgot how it ended in the game, but I know how it ended in the novels. Sardush was sieged and destroyed in Throne of Bhaal yet the city was fince in FRCS and article on WotC website. Also ToB mentioned armies ravaging lands all over the Sword Coast, nothing of this has appeared in any FR supplement. Are these events (destruction of Saradush, armies all over the Sword Coast) also in the BG novels?
Kuje31 04-07-04, 04:55 PM	Originally posted by Mirtek Sardush was sieged and destroyed in Throne of Bhaal yet the city was fince in FRCS and article on WotC website. Also ToB mentioned armies ravaging lands all over the Sword Coast, nothing of this has appeared in any FR supplement. Are these events (destruction of Saradush, armies all over the Sword Coast) also in the BG novels? I don't recall sorry. :) Doesn't matter though because WOTC lists the books as canon on thier timeline.
Ilbreth Shadowblade 04-07-04, 05:31 PM	Originally posted by Sammael_the_Chosen Both the Bhaalspawn storyline and Neverwinter Nights, Shadows of Undrentide, and Hordes of the Underdark plots are non-canonical. They never happened. Can someone please tell me what happoned in Hordes of The Underdark because I never got that one?
Taelohn 04-07-04, 07:54 PM	Okay then. Note: Spoilers, for those who haven't played it. (Duh. :)) Waterdeep finds itself in trouble, as monsters pour up out of Undermountain and wreak havoc. Act 1: The hero of Undrentide is sleeping in an inn in Waterdeep. A drow matron mother calling herself the Valsharess (drow for 'queen') has her wizards project an image of the one who they believed could defeat her and stop her rise to power; which is of course your character. During the night, a drow thief sneaks into your room and steals your stuff. You wake up, grab a dagger, and kill her anyway. You can borrow some stuff from the innkeep, but not much. Going downstairs, you find that Sharwyn, Tomi, Linu, and Daelen are also in Waterdeep, hearing about the monsters and whatnot. The inn is attacked by drow, and after defeating him the innkeep reveals that he has an entrance to Undermountain in his cellar. You can also meet up with Deekin down there. A beholder pops up, zapping you and the inkeep, while Sharwyn, Tomi, Linu and Daelen rush into Undermountain. You go down there and find them, since they didn't do so great. As you go about, you eventually learn that the monsters are acting up because Halaster is missing. As you progress down to the third level, you can eventually find him being magically held and interogated by drow, who want him to open the main portal to the Underdark to allow all their forces to pour into Waterdeep. He refuses, speaking in rhyme and making fun of them. You rush in and free him, and he kills all the drow. Another Halaster pops in, then he explains how you've ruined his plan. He was only pretending to be captured - he wanted to lure the Valsharess to him so that he could kill her. Since you've messed it up, he decides to geas you to kill her and sends you to the Underdark instead. Act II: You arrive at a rebel camp of Eilistraee-worshipping drow, who are working alongside Lolth-worshippers (or they were, though she's silent now) to stem the conquest of the Valsharess. Halaster won't let you take your Act I henchman down here - with the exception of Deekin, whom he finds funny - but you can meet up with a drow assassin or a tiefling fighter to fill that position (and you get two cohorts in this game rather than just one). The Valsharess is reported to have aid from undead, mind flayers, and beholders - you need to stop this, either through making a deal with or simply destroying the offending party. It's also possible to recruit allies (such as golems). Once you've done all but one of the possible quests, the Valsharess appears to you in a dream, offering an alliance if you betray the drow to her. You must engage in a big battle, either breaking down the gates and letting the enemy in, or just destroying them all, whichever suits you. Either way, you will eventually find yourself coming face to face with the drow queen (whether she summons you there as an ally, or you march there to destroy her). It is revealed that she has captured the archdevil Mephistopheles, and is commanding his powers in order to help with her conquest. He obeys her up to this point, but when she orders him to destroy you, he says he'd rather just kill all her people, instead. He wipes out all her minions with hellfire, then frees you to go one on one with the Valsharess. After her death, the devil congratulates you - by slaying you and sending your soul to the 8th Hell of Baator. Act III: You find yourself in Cania, which is not a very nice place. You learn that Mephisto has begun conquering the Underdark himself. You can get any of your three henchmen from Act II down here (since Mephisto has since killed them). It is also possible to find the spirit of the Lady Aribeth frozen in the ice. Confused and impressionable, you can make her go with either good or evil, whichever suits your character. Afterwards, you must undergo various quests until you can eventually find the True Name of the Reaper who binds your soul here, and command him to send you back to Toril. There you find that Mephistopheles has now passed through Undermountain and entered Waterdeep, and is beginning to lay siege to it. You and your henchmen (who the devil will attempt to turn against you) must defeat him. After that, you can live happily ever after, spend eternity in Hell, or any number of things, depending what you chose.
Anthor Del Niera 04-08-04, 02:40 AM	The events from your trip through Baldur's gate are obviously not canon. The events from Abdul (Abdar, Abdillocious?)'s trip through BG are, in fact, official realmslore. You're free to ignore it, of course. But if it's an argument over what is official, then there you go. As for NwN... great game. Excellent plot. I'd love it to be canon. Don't think it'll happen, though. Not that I personally see any reason why it couldn't, but there's a lot of change. I don't know that waterdeep was really razed to the ground at the end of HotU. I always saw it as more of a "bunch of people killed but we'll move on" kind of thing. Which isn't too improbable. They just have to have an official "main character" and count his/ her storyline choices as the canon ones. I vote for Eldrion Fendlestick, my halfling fighter/ rogue. He is the best! (Oh, and I missed the whole last conversation with Meph... I used magic device on a scroll of black blade of disaster and accidentally killed him when he rolled a one on his fort save. Interesting, to say the least, as I was very low level and couldn't seem to damage him. )