Neverwinter Nights [Archive] - Wizards Community

Neverwinter Nights [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TimeWanderer
01-27-04, 10:44 PM Ok, Forgotten Realms—Neverwinter Nights, the PC game.

WARNING—SPOILERS 4 THE GAME, AND ALSO SPOILERS 4 PLAYERS

I’m new to Neverwinter—one of my friends plays it and he introduced it to me. Now, I asked him if, no matter what you do, the creatures escape from their cells. He said they did.

It occurred to me that that’s something actually warned against in the DM Guide. Here’s a quote from the DM’s Guide, page 100 in the 3rd edition Dungeon Master’s Guide—
“Leading the PCs by the Nose: A bad event-based adventure is marked by mandates
restricting PC actions or is based on events that occur no matter what the PCs do. For
example, a plot that hinges on the PCs finding a mysterious heirloom, only to have it
stolen by NPCs, is dangerous—if the players invent a good way to protect the heirloom,
they won’t like having if stolen anyway just because that’s what you planned beforehand.
the players end up feeling powerless and frustrated. No matter what, all adventures
should depend upon player choices. Players should always feel as though what they
to do matters. The results should affect the campaign setting (albeit perhaps in minor
ways), and they should have consequences (good or bad) for the PCs.”

It almost seems as if the maker of the game hasn’t read the DM’s guide, and if they did, perhaps the material didn’t pierce through their skulls. Maybe the graphics are supposed to blind you to the material, or some other nonsense.

Now, I don’t mean to be picky and intolerant, and I haven’t gone very far in the game yet, but really! Please, tell me what you think. I’m sure that my excerpt makes my point clear, but maybe if you haven’t played the game it’s not as clear. I’ll answer any questions about my sanity or anything else you decide ask me.
ElGrecoETAC
01-27-04, 10:58 PM You'd probably have better luck with the Bioware NWN forums, but, what the heck--I'm game.

The problem is that video games are limited by code. You can do pretty much whatever you want pen and paper wise, but not with PC games, movies, comic books--or anything else that depends on physical material to display an adventure. Granted, it would have made more sense for the monsters to be gone BEFORE you got there, but I believe it was done that way so that players who had never played D&D before had a reference of what they were looking for.

My beef with the NWN games (I own a couple of them) is that I don't feel they do a good enough job of either justifying your rapport with the people sending you out on quests, or the fact that a 1st level adventurer is being sent out to solve all these titanic problems.

Other than that, I like NWN. Hook line and sinkers like the ones you described are necessary for a product whose very nature demands that it be linear in form.
Desies
01-27-04, 11:09 PM Being a programmer I can atest to that. The problem with video games is that they have limits and parameters that are always in place. Unfortunately the player of the game must do all the things they wish to do within these parameters.

I would like to see a DND MMORPG however. If done well this could work out nicely. The problem with such a game is role-playing. There would be no way to keep it in check, especially seeing as all those non-DND players would also have access to the game.
TimeWanderer
01-27-04, 11:18 PM yah, I suppose that's true. But still, I found a much better handling of those problems in Icewind Dale, which I take is the sequel to Neverwinter. So it must be possible...
Darkmistress
01-28-04, 12:06 AM Icewind Dale sequel of NWN? I'm not sure where you got this from, but your source of information must be pretty damn inaccurate. Besides which, IWD is a dungeon-crawl, though a good one. There's not much in ways of player's choice affecting the story, if any at all. IWD and NWN have exactly zero relation with each other aside from both being set in FR and using D&D rules. Even the developers are different: IWD and its sequel were developed by Black Isle Studio; NWN, by Bioware.

In any case, it's my opinion that the NWN official campaign is a load of electronic garbage. Bad story, repetitive quests, so-so writing, annoying characters, and laughable plot twists. My advice? Either go download player-made modules -- many of which are several light-years superior to the official campaign; check the NWVault Hall of Fame -- or give the Hordes of the Underdark expansion a try. The HotU official campaign, while loosely connected to the first one, is a quantum leap in every way imaginable. Graphics, story, voiceacting, characters, puzzle, atmosphere, et all.
Desies
01-28-04, 12:40 AM all that and the addition of Deekin the super pimp!
Desies
01-28-04, 12:40 AM oops
Stryfe6985
01-28-04, 01:07 AM I rather liked Neverwinter nights and the respective expansions. Who could not like Grimnaw, i mean that crazy monk dwarf with a thing for death, good voice acting for him, they made him nice and creepy. The only really annoying character i found was that stupid thief tommy. But HotU is the best out of all three.
Darkmistress
01-28-04, 03:16 AM Speaking of NPCs reminds me: the NPC AI in the original OC is extremely poor. Henchpeople would race off in the distance after some enemies and then either get killed or bring a big train to you. Spellcasting henchmen are simply abominable. It's marginally improved in SoU, but not much better. Improved still some more in HotU, but it's still quite awful. Sometimes the NPCs would just stop in the middle of nowhere and no matter how many times you order them to, they simply will not attack. Oh, you idiotic tiefling, swing your bloody flail at the bloody arch-devil al-bloody-ready!

Bioware should have let you control them like they did in the Infinity Engine games and KotOR.
ElGrecoETAC
01-28-04, 03:54 AM Yeah, that's why I usually put my henchman on missile weapon detail. ;)

I am really looking forward to HotU, but unfortunately no major online company will ship it to Korea for another half a year or so, due to fears of software piracy. Hopefully my base exchange will be able to order it. :confused:

Darkmistress is correct... there are a lot of modules out there that have better plots (if not all the voice acting and videos) of the main campaign. And almost none of them ask a 1st level character to save a metropolis-sized city, an act that is almost criminally irresponsible in my eyes.

The only thing that really ticked me off about the Shadows of Undrentide expansion was that it was also designed for a very young PC. I reached 20th level by playing the hardest setting in the main game and was sorely disappointed going through SoU. :(
Darkmistress
01-28-04, 04:56 AM Try Elegia Eternum. Superior to the OC in every way, and all dialogue is voice-acted. Plus original music. The sequel, Excrucio Eternum doesn't have voiceacting, but has original music and equally good (if not better) story/characters.
ElGrecoETAC
01-28-04, 09:48 AM Thank you, Darkmistress. I had been thinking about downloading that one when I get done with the Dreamcatcher series. :)
waternut101
01-28-04, 10:18 AM Darkmistress you are so right. HotU is far superior to any of the other originals, but user made Mods are even better. Dreamcatcher is very good, but still it is lacking if you are looking for a really good D&D experience. The way to go is online with DM's running the show. It is still a bit linear, unless the DM's have an entire world prepared for you to wander about it. It has actually satisfied my roleplaying needs for the past year or so. I play on a very selective and closed server with about 20 players and 4 DM's. It's very nice.

My suggestion would be go to NeverwinterConnections, and see just lurk around for a while, asking people about open games, and how to get into one with a good DM.

Anyhow, I highly suggest online games with good DM's.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TimeWanderer 01-27-04, 10:44 PM	Ok, Forgotten Realms—Neverwinter Nights, the PC game. WARNING—SPOILERS 4 THE GAME, AND ALSO SPOILERS 4 PLAYERS I’m new to Neverwinter—one of my friends plays it and he introduced it to me. Now, I asked him if, no matter what you do, the creatures escape from their cells. He said they did. It occurred to me that that’s something actually warned against in the DM Guide. Here’s a quote from the DM’s Guide, page 100 in the 3rd edition Dungeon Master’s Guide— “Leading the PCs by the Nose: A bad event-based adventure is marked by mandates restricting PC actions or is based on events that occur no matter what the PCs do. For example, a plot that hinges on the PCs finding a mysterious heirloom, only to have it stolen by NPCs, is dangerous—if the players invent a good way to protect the heirloom, they won’t like having if stolen anyway just because that’s what you planned beforehand. the players end up feeling powerless and frustrated. No matter what, all adventures should depend upon player choices. Players should always feel as though what they to do matters. The results should affect the campaign setting (albeit perhaps in minor ways), and they should have consequences (good or bad) for the PCs.” It almost seems as if the maker of the game hasn’t read the DM’s guide, and if they did, perhaps the material didn’t pierce through their skulls. Maybe the graphics are supposed to blind you to the material, or some other nonsense. Now, I don’t mean to be picky and intolerant, and I haven’t gone very far in the game yet, but really! Please, tell me what you think. I’m sure that my excerpt makes my point clear, but maybe if you haven’t played the game it’s not as clear. I’ll answer any questions about my sanity or anything else you decide ask me.
ElGrecoETAC 01-27-04, 10:58 PM	You'd probably have better luck with the Bioware NWN forums, but, what the heck--I'm game. The problem is that video games are limited by code. You can do pretty much whatever you want pen and paper wise, but not with PC games, movies, comic books--or anything else that depends on physical material to display an adventure. Granted, it would have made more sense for the monsters to be gone BEFORE you got there, but I believe it was done that way so that players who had never played D&D before had a reference of what they were looking for. My beef with the NWN games (I own a couple of them) is that I don't feel they do a good enough job of either justifying your rapport with the people sending you out on quests, or the fact that a 1st level adventurer is being sent out to solve all these titanic problems. Other than that, I like NWN. Hook line and sinkers like the ones you described are necessary for a product whose very nature demands that it be linear in form.
Desies 01-27-04, 11:09 PM	Being a programmer I can atest to that. The problem with video games is that they have limits and parameters that are always in place. Unfortunately the player of the game must do all the things they wish to do within these parameters. I would like to see a DND MMORPG however. If done well this could work out nicely. The problem with such a game is role-playing. There would be no way to keep it in check, especially seeing as all those non-DND players would also have access to the game.
TimeWanderer 01-27-04, 11:18 PM	yah, I suppose that's true. But still, I found a much better handling of those problems in Icewind Dale, which I take is the sequel to Neverwinter. So it must be possible...
Darkmistress 01-28-04, 12:06 AM	Icewind Dale sequel of NWN? I'm not sure where you got this from, but your source of information must be pretty damn inaccurate. Besides which, IWD is a dungeon-crawl, though a good one. There's not much in ways of player's choice affecting the story, if any at all. IWD and NWN have exactly zero relation with each other aside from both being set in FR and using D&D rules. Even the developers are different: IWD and its sequel were developed by Black Isle Studio; NWN, by Bioware. In any case, it's my opinion that the NWN official campaign is a load of electronic garbage. Bad story, repetitive quests, so-so writing, annoying characters, and laughable plot twists. My advice? Either go download player-made modules -- many of which are several light-years superior to the official campaign; check the NWVault Hall of Fame -- or give the Hordes of the Underdark expansion a try. The HotU official campaign, while loosely connected to the first one, is a quantum leap in every way imaginable. Graphics, story, voiceacting, characters, puzzle, atmosphere, et all.
Desies 01-28-04, 12:40 AM	all that and the addition of Deekin the super pimp!
Desies 01-28-04, 12:40 AM	oops
Stryfe6985 01-28-04, 01:07 AM	I rather liked Neverwinter nights and the respective expansions. Who could not like Grimnaw, i mean that crazy monk dwarf with a thing for death, good voice acting for him, they made him nice and creepy. The only really annoying character i found was that stupid thief tommy. But HotU is the best out of all three.
Darkmistress 01-28-04, 03:16 AM	Speaking of NPCs reminds me: the NPC AI in the original OC is extremely poor. Henchpeople would race off in the distance after some enemies and then either get killed or bring a big train to you. Spellcasting henchmen are simply abominable. It's marginally improved in SoU, but not much better. Improved still some more in HotU, but it's still quite awful. Sometimes the NPCs would just stop in the middle of nowhere and no matter how many times you order them to, they simply will not attack. Oh, you idiotic tiefling, swing your bloody flail at the bloody arch-devil al-bloody-ready! Bioware should have let you control them like they did in the Infinity Engine games and KotOR.
ElGrecoETAC 01-28-04, 03:54 AM	Yeah, that's why I usually put my henchman on missile weapon detail. ;) I am really looking forward to HotU, but unfortunately no major online company will ship it to Korea for another half a year or so, due to fears of software piracy. Hopefully my base exchange will be able to order it. :confused: Darkmistress is correct... there are a lot of modules out there that have better plots (if not all the voice acting and videos) of the main campaign. And almost none of them ask a 1st level character to save a metropolis-sized city, an act that is almost criminally irresponsible in my eyes. The only thing that really ticked me off about the Shadows of Undrentide expansion was that it was also designed for a very young PC. I reached 20th level by playing the hardest setting in the main game and was sorely disappointed going through SoU. :(
Darkmistress 01-28-04, 04:56 AM	Try Elegia Eternum. Superior to the OC in every way, and all dialogue is voice-acted. Plus original music. The sequel, Excrucio Eternum doesn't have voiceacting, but has original music and equally good (if not better) story/characters.
ElGrecoETAC 01-28-04, 09:48 AM	Thank you, Darkmistress. I had been thinking about downloading that one when I get done with the Dreamcatcher series. :)
waternut101 01-28-04, 10:18 AM	Darkmistress you are so right. HotU is far superior to any of the other originals, but user made Mods are even better. Dreamcatcher is very good, but still it is lacking if you are looking for a really good D&D experience. The way to go is online with DM's running the show. It is still a bit linear, unless the DM's have an entire world prepared for you to wander about it. It has actually satisfied my roleplaying needs for the past year or so. I play on a very selective and closed server with about 20 players and 4 DM's. It's very nice. My suggestion would be go to NeverwinterConnections, and see just lurk around for a while, asking people about open games, and how to get into one with a good DM. Anyhow, I highly suggest online games with good DM's.