New Campaign Begins: PC problem! [Archive] - Wizards Community

New Campaign Begins: PC problem! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TheGreenGriffon
04-10-04, 07:42 AM Our new campaign run under a new DM but long time player begun in the final days of Myth Drannor. All of us began playing elves of noble birth. Our job was simple. Escape Myth Drannor before it falls with our lives. In the end though we all managed to escape but the magic we had been given to lift us out of Myth Drannor failed when a wizard interupted at the last moment and we were all thrust into the present day Faerun.

Here is the problem, during all the players ordeals through escaping their homeland there was one constant. Drow. We killed them left and rigth as we tried to reach our goal and they even killed the parents of the PC which has Royalty in her blood. Needless to say we all hate drow at this point as they had a big hand in destroying our home and trying to do away with us. Now a new player has joined the group and before asking the DM designed a character that has a new class and is half-drow/half-sunelf (if thats even possible). Also the story of this new player's character involves being in a classic drow noble house whose house is collapsedd. Sure its a fine story for a PC to have but all warnings have gone out to the party that the group is composed of 3 drow hating prejudice noble elves of Myth Drannor who to them just fell yesterday. The DM warns is very unlikely the new PC will be accepted and may be even killed.

After much pleading the DM finally had to say no to the character as he doesnt want to deal with the problems of Drow on his first time out as a DM. The player says that no one on the surface of Toril even cares about drow anymore and they walk on the streets of Waterdeep freely and own shops there in public view. We having read many FR novels about the drow doubt this claim and now the player is angry. I keep telling the DM that he did the right thing as a new class and a drow race wasnt approved beforehand and it was the own players fault.

What does everyone else think about this? Comments welcome!
Tempus665
04-10-04, 07:50 AM If the DM says drow are no big issue these days, then drow are no big issue these days.

It´s as simple as that. Every DM has the right to change the world the way he wants to, but once play starts, he should be consistent.
TheGreenGriffon
04-10-04, 07:57 AM The DM didnt say the Drow our no big issue these days. This was the player who wanted to be drow's case. He was trying to convince everyone that Drow were an accepted race. Sorry if It wasnt clear. Its still early morning when Im writing this.
Mystery Man
04-10-04, 09:09 AM DM says no, the answer is no. Player needs to move on. ;)
Sammael_the_Chosen
04-10-04, 09:18 AM The player probably shouldn't even play in your group, considering that:

1) he failed to consult with the DM before making his character
2) he failed to understand that his character wouldn't fit in the group; or he wanted to cause disarray on purpose
3) he tried to tell the DM how to run his world
4) he now has a grudge against the DM and against other players

It should have been the DM's call, at any rate. Despite the fact that you have a drow-hating party, the DM could have made him fit or forced you to work with him and overcome your prejudice in time. However, the player ruined his chance of this happening when he questioned the DM.

And no, half-drow/half-sun elves are not possible. A character with two elven parents always takes after one or the other and becomes a full elf of his parent's subrace.
Ramius_Mordale
04-10-04, 09:46 AM From what I have gathered from reading the resource books that pertain to this issue, all Drow are still distrusted, even Drizzt. If Drizzt was anywhere else besides the North, he would most likely be extremely hasseled maybe even killed on sight. This is not to say that no Drow could say live in these lands or somewhere like Cormyr, where I do have a Drow character currently. BUT all Drow must keep everything low profile, even if they are the best of all Good Drow. The only reason say a character like Drizzt is even remotely accepted in the North and on some parts of the Sword Coast is cause his actions speak for him. But my friend that actually read some of the Drizzt novels is that even the Lady of Silverymoon wouldn't openly accept him (please feel free to correct me on that, I am hearing it second handed).

Now my Drow character is traveling with a Gold Elf, BUT it was forced both on us to work together (only reason me and my DM thought up why they would even bother to work together in the first place). Neither of our characters cared to even work with the like of each other but since we were getting hunted down by an organization that didn't care (and still are) we decided that our best bet of survival was to work together, but we have become gruding allies over the time that we have adventured together. And my fellow PC's Gold Elf isn't an Elf from back in the day Myth Drannor, so I would have to say, your DM made the right call.

In anycase, Drow just aren't really a super race to play because they have a whole bunch of special abilities. And really, this Drow that I talk of is the only surviving one out of 5 made that has survived past his first level. Plus I think when people play drow they base it solely off of Drizzt, not making their characters their own. Not to burst anyones bubble on this but Drizzt isn't even an actual PCed NPC he is just a novel character that was thought up by a writer. Meaning Drizzt is a book character if you want to play Drizzt, be a DM and just make him one of your NPCs and get it out of your system.

:) But hey I guess you know I don't really care for Drizzt now don't ya. ;) Eh, well thats just my opinion I suppose, anyway. To talk about the possible union between a Sun Elf and Drow Elf, one such PC in my group has a character like that and made him using 2nd Edition when he used to play it (this was long before I even was into the system and I started when 3.0 came out). But hey he had to have his DMs approval and worked with his DM on the idea. Now I really dislike it when PCs when I'm DMing to just assume I'll allow anything. That usually gets them a first ticket to having that character killed or me not allowing him to play it period. And as other people had said, what your DM says goes.

Ah this is gotten way to long as is. I think it is time for me to just shut my trap. :) Hope that helps a bit. Adios!
TheGreenGriffon
04-10-04, 09:21 PM Thanks everyone, Im hearing a lot of what was discussed with the Dm and the player in question. I think also a lot of it had to do with taking advantage of a new DM and the player thought since the new DM is his best friend that he could make whatever he wanted without consultation and got a little too attached to his character. He made a whole huge storyline that he shouldnt have made until getting the basics approved.

The DM did comprimise and was willing to allow him to play his new class but it seems it wasnt good enough. Ill appreciate anymore input guys. Keep em coming.
Narvineye
04-11-04, 05:23 PM Personaly, the drow bit wouldn't have annoyed me that much, if he feels like playing a race every other PC is predujiced against, that's his problem, the role playing would sort him out. What I wouldn't like is the new class, for me to approve that, I would have to look it up a down to make sure it's balanced, even then, it would be a mabey.
Alac Luin
04-11-04, 08:07 PM I'm intruged with the half-drow/half-sun thing you mentioned.
It is long standing lore in the realms that elf's bread true...
a sun and drow could mate, but the resulting offspring would be a full drow, or a full sun elf, I'm not sure how this fits with said charicter.

Drow still do not walk the streats freely.
Drow do not seem to fit into this ongoing story line, so he was right.
If the DM was following a Halhling story in Lurin(sp?), and a new charicter wanted to bring in a Nothern human Barbarian, the DM would be within his rights to say no allowing this human into the party.

A comprimise may be made, for the next campain to allow this caricter a place, mabey a prominant place in the story.
TheGreenGriffon
04-11-04, 09:37 PM Something I neglected to mention but remembered now. We are still not out of the woods yet. While the trip from Myth Drannor in the late 700's DR to 1372 DR was an instant one for us. Over the centuries the balor lord that wanted the party dead has never stopped looking for us for some unknown reason and has been alerted upon our arrival, we would have been slain if not for the actions of a Mysterious crazed mage who saved our lives. Now we are on the run and trying to remain under the scrying spell so to speak. Traveling with a Drow would alert everyone to where we are and give us infamy around every region we were spotted in with the drow.

I think the DM refused to allow him in simply because several of us explained our elves would not associtae with drow and he would be dealing with a split party.

Roleplaying wise everything tells us not to journey with a drow, especially one who may also be being hunted by drow society like Drizzt was.
Ramius_Mordale
04-11-04, 10:02 PM That is true, any Drow not sticking to their evil ways is on their own. And the path of the Lone warrior is a bloody and difficult path to take. Only way I could think a Drow would even be able to be apart of a party would be if he/she was sporting Eilistraee symbols in open sight and not concealing them. (Well thats assuming the party is somewhat good-aleigned). And I believe every evil Drow literally has parties out hunting down good Drow right? I'm kind of confused about all this new stuff happening down in the Underdark and Cormanthor forest.

But your reason is very sound, the less people hunting your group the better. Balor Lord? Eh, good luck with that, just don't sneeze! (Don't ask, its a long story). ;) :)
SALDAR
04-11-04, 10:34 PM Springing a new class on a new DM and expecting no resistance shows a lack of respect for the DM and the rest of the group. When introducing a new class into the game all members of my group look over it and we discuss its pros and cons. We work with it until it seems to be a balanced class then we play it. This playtesting allows us to determine its feasability and if it is unbalanced we adjust it accordingly during the game. This works well as most of us take turns DMing (6 out of 7 members) and can see blatantly unbalancing class features ahead of time, which our experience allows us to avoid during class creation for the most part.

As for the half and half elf, as stated previously by other posters, pick one of the parents' race to be. A good roleplaying/plot device could be the character could appear as a sun elf and keep its dark elven heritage a secret as long as possible to prove its intentions. Although, the way the player created and developed the character, without DM or fellow player input, will lead to a very bad situation for the playing group as upon first meeting the drow the Myth Drannans would kill it and PO the player.

The game is supposed to be enjoyed by all players and one character that would continually disrupt the fun causes bad feelings within the group. I've seen this happen before, in a 1st edition game one of our players introduced a gnome illusionist/assassin into our group just to cause problems. Our first encounter ended with a prisoner that the gnome began to torture for info, my ranger killed the gnome, thus ended the session as an argument broke out as the gnome's player said that a good ranger would not kill a fellow party member, no matter the circumstances. He was wrong as good is good and evil is evil, party member or not. He tried a similar tactic a couple of years later with a thief stealing from fellow party members, my ranger (Yes, I've played a lot of rangers) killed his character, no argument this time.
Ramius_Mordale
04-11-04, 11:00 PM Um, just my opinion here, but I really don't see why you can't have a half-sun elf/ half-drow breed? Just like we have people of mixed racial families in real life. You just don't tag them one or the other. Though I will admit that you have sound logic on the subject, but I haven't read of any such ruling on this about elves being one or the other. But when I said my friend made this PC of his, he okayed it with his DM and used the Skill and Powers (in 2nd Edition, which btw I would like to see made for 3.5) to make this perticular half-sun/half-drow character of his. But besides knowing anything about his character's past not even this guy, who PCs this character, even knows his parents. So I can't tell you anymore then that.

Anyways, ah if you know where they say that ruling on elves in the FRCS or any 3.0 or 3.5 version book it would be appreciated. Cause I'd like to look at that for future reference, thanks.
TheGreenGriffon
04-11-04, 11:33 PM From what our group understands from what we have read is that because Drow are the most powerful of the elven races as far as CR's go, there traits are dominant and thus any mixing of species always creates creatures more drow unless the other race is stronger than the other half. At least this is what we have decided. For example Half-drow despite their human half are always dark skinned (Although not as dark) as their drow blood is dominant.

Even in real life genetics have darker skin being dominant. Even if a sun elf and a drow mated most likely they would look like their drow parent despite what culture they took after.

Another interesting point is the gods themselves and what they allow. Correllon isnt exactly a forgiving deity. Orcs and Elves cannot mate and produce children simply because Correlon and Gruumsh are bitter enemies. I would think Correllon and Lloth wouldnt want their species mating either, especially Lloth.

As for roleplaying, a DM should never force the PC's to accept a character into their midst that their characters would object too. But on the other hand he should know his players and not allow a PC that would disrupt the group dynamic.

A good example was back when I was playing 2ed in FR and playing at the time a 14th level human mage with a gold elf bladesinger, a human thief, a human Paladin, an elven Ftr/Wiz/Thief, a dwarven fighter, and a human Druid. Needless to say we were a diverse group but we had been adventuring together since level 1 and had faced cities of drow before and narrowly escaped with our lives. Over 30 years of campaign time later we had generated a deep hatred for Drow (we even faced off against Drizzt on one occasion).

A new player wanted to join our group and and despite the DM's warnings rolled up a drow elf. As we traveled away from a mountain full of dragons weary from our latest honor quest we came upon a camp site with a lone traveler. he stood upon hearing us and lowered his hood showing his drow heritage.

My mage was the first to act and Mordenkainen's Force missiles greeted him quickly while the melee combatants charged in to disptahc him and to his credit he lasted 2 rounds before falling and having his body looted for all the drow had taken from us. It wasnt until the battle started and the player began to roll dice did we know it was his character. I know myself I wouldnt have acted differently. Only the paladin hadnt attacked the drow as he followed a innocent until proven guilty mentality but at the same time he was a paladin of Helm and didnt protest too much remembering our past with Drow.

Know what your getting into before you go running into a race thats not standard.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheGreenGriffon 04-10-04, 07:42 AM	Our new campaign run under a new DM but long time player begun in the final days of Myth Drannor. All of us began playing elves of noble birth. Our job was simple. Escape Myth Drannor before it falls with our lives. In the end though we all managed to escape but the magic we had been given to lift us out of Myth Drannor failed when a wizard interupted at the last moment and we were all thrust into the present day Faerun. Here is the problem, during all the players ordeals through escaping their homeland there was one constant. Drow. We killed them left and rigth as we tried to reach our goal and they even killed the parents of the PC which has Royalty in her blood. Needless to say we all hate drow at this point as they had a big hand in destroying our home and trying to do away with us. Now a new player has joined the group and before asking the DM designed a character that has a new class and is half-drow/half-sunelf (if thats even possible). Also the story of this new player's character involves being in a classic drow noble house whose house is collapsedd. Sure its a fine story for a PC to have but all warnings have gone out to the party that the group is composed of 3 drow hating prejudice noble elves of Myth Drannor who to them just fell yesterday. The DM warns is very unlikely the new PC will be accepted and may be even killed. After much pleading the DM finally had to say no to the character as he doesnt want to deal with the problems of Drow on his first time out as a DM. The player says that no one on the surface of Toril even cares about drow anymore and they walk on the streets of Waterdeep freely and own shops there in public view. We having read many FR novels about the drow doubt this claim and now the player is angry. I keep telling the DM that he did the right thing as a new class and a drow race wasnt approved beforehand and it was the own players fault. What does everyone else think about this? Comments welcome!
Tempus665 04-10-04, 07:50 AM	If the DM says drow are no big issue these days, then drow are no big issue these days. It´s as simple as that. Every DM has the right to change the world the way he wants to, but once play starts, he should be consistent.
TheGreenGriffon 04-10-04, 07:57 AM	The DM didnt say the Drow our no big issue these days. This was the player who wanted to be drow's case. He was trying to convince everyone that Drow were an accepted race. Sorry if It wasnt clear. Its still early morning when Im writing this.
Mystery Man 04-10-04, 09:09 AM	DM says no, the answer is no. Player needs to move on. ;)
Sammael_the_Chosen 04-10-04, 09:18 AM	The player probably shouldn't even play in your group, considering that: 1) he failed to consult with the DM before making his character 2) he failed to understand that his character wouldn't fit in the group; or he wanted to cause disarray on purpose 3) he tried to tell the DM how to run his world 4) he now has a grudge against the DM and against other players It should have been the DM's call, at any rate. Despite the fact that you have a drow-hating party, the DM could have made him fit or forced you to work with him and overcome your prejudice in time. However, the player ruined his chance of this happening when he questioned the DM. And no, half-drow/half-sun elves are not possible. A character with two elven parents always takes after one or the other and becomes a full elf of his parent's subrace.
Ramius_Mordale 04-10-04, 09:46 AM	From what I have gathered from reading the resource books that pertain to this issue, all Drow are still distrusted, even Drizzt. If Drizzt was anywhere else besides the North, he would most likely be extremely hasseled maybe even killed on sight. This is not to say that no Drow could say live in these lands or somewhere like Cormyr, where I do have a Drow character currently. BUT all Drow must keep everything low profile, even if they are the best of all Good Drow. The only reason say a character like Drizzt is even remotely accepted in the North and on some parts of the Sword Coast is cause his actions speak for him. But my friend that actually read some of the Drizzt novels is that even the Lady of Silverymoon wouldn't openly accept him (please feel free to correct me on that, I am hearing it second handed). Now my Drow character is traveling with a Gold Elf, BUT it was forced both on us to work together (only reason me and my DM thought up why they would even bother to work together in the first place). Neither of our characters cared to even work with the like of each other but since we were getting hunted down by an organization that didn't care (and still are) we decided that our best bet of survival was to work together, but we have become gruding allies over the time that we have adventured together. And my fellow PC's Gold Elf isn't an Elf from back in the day Myth Drannor, so I would have to say, your DM made the right call. In anycase, Drow just aren't really a super race to play because they have a whole bunch of special abilities. And really, this Drow that I talk of is the only surviving one out of 5 made that has survived past his first level. Plus I think when people play drow they base it solely off of Drizzt, not making their characters their own. Not to burst anyones bubble on this but Drizzt isn't even an actual PCed NPC he is just a novel character that was thought up by a writer. Meaning Drizzt is a book character if you want to play Drizzt, be a DM and just make him one of your NPCs and get it out of your system. :) But hey I guess you know I don't really care for Drizzt now don't ya. ;) Eh, well thats just my opinion I suppose, anyway. To talk about the possible union between a Sun Elf and Drow Elf, one such PC in my group has a character like that and made him using 2nd Edition when he used to play it (this was long before I even was into the system and I started when 3.0 came out). But hey he had to have his DMs approval and worked with his DM on the idea. Now I really dislike it when PCs when I'm DMing to just assume I'll allow anything. That usually gets them a first ticket to having that character killed or me not allowing him to play it period. And as other people had said, what your DM says goes. Ah this is gotten way to long as is. I think it is time for me to just shut my trap. :) Hope that helps a bit. Adios!
TheGreenGriffon 04-10-04, 09:21 PM	Thanks everyone, Im hearing a lot of what was discussed with the Dm and the player in question. I think also a lot of it had to do with taking advantage of a new DM and the player thought since the new DM is his best friend that he could make whatever he wanted without consultation and got a little too attached to his character. He made a whole huge storyline that he shouldnt have made until getting the basics approved. The DM did comprimise and was willing to allow him to play his new class but it seems it wasnt good enough. Ill appreciate anymore input guys. Keep em coming.
Narvineye 04-11-04, 05:23 PM	Personaly, the drow bit wouldn't have annoyed me that much, if he feels like playing a race every other PC is predujiced against, that's his problem, the role playing would sort him out. What I wouldn't like is the new class, for me to approve that, I would have to look it up a down to make sure it's balanced, even then, it would be a mabey.
Alac Luin 04-11-04, 08:07 PM	I'm intruged with the half-drow/half-sun thing you mentioned. It is long standing lore in the realms that elf's bread true... a sun and drow could mate, but the resulting offspring would be a full drow, or a full sun elf, I'm not sure how this fits with said charicter. Drow still do not walk the streats freely. Drow do not seem to fit into this ongoing story line, so he was right. If the DM was following a Halhling story in Lurin(sp?), and a new charicter wanted to bring in a Nothern human Barbarian, the DM would be within his rights to say no allowing this human into the party. A comprimise may be made, for the next campain to allow this caricter a place, mabey a prominant place in the story.
TheGreenGriffon 04-11-04, 09:37 PM	Something I neglected to mention but remembered now. We are still not out of the woods yet. While the trip from Myth Drannor in the late 700's DR to 1372 DR was an instant one for us. Over the centuries the balor lord that wanted the party dead has never stopped looking for us for some unknown reason and has been alerted upon our arrival, we would have been slain if not for the actions of a Mysterious crazed mage who saved our lives. Now we are on the run and trying to remain under the scrying spell so to speak. Traveling with a Drow would alert everyone to where we are and give us infamy around every region we were spotted in with the drow. I think the DM refused to allow him in simply because several of us explained our elves would not associtae with drow and he would be dealing with a split party. Roleplaying wise everything tells us not to journey with a drow, especially one who may also be being hunted by drow society like Drizzt was.
Ramius_Mordale 04-11-04, 10:02 PM	That is true, any Drow not sticking to their evil ways is on their own. And the path of the Lone warrior is a bloody and difficult path to take. Only way I could think a Drow would even be able to be apart of a party would be if he/she was sporting Eilistraee symbols in open sight and not concealing them. (Well thats assuming the party is somewhat good-aleigned). And I believe every evil Drow literally has parties out hunting down good Drow right? I'm kind of confused about all this new stuff happening down in the Underdark and Cormanthor forest. But your reason is very sound, the less people hunting your group the better. Balor Lord? Eh, good luck with that, just don't sneeze! (Don't ask, its a long story). ;) :)
SALDAR 04-11-04, 10:34 PM	Springing a new class on a new DM and expecting no resistance shows a lack of respect for the DM and the rest of the group. When introducing a new class into the game all members of my group look over it and we discuss its pros and cons. We work with it until it seems to be a balanced class then we play it. This playtesting allows us to determine its feasability and if it is unbalanced we adjust it accordingly during the game. This works well as most of us take turns DMing (6 out of 7 members) and can see blatantly unbalancing class features ahead of time, which our experience allows us to avoid during class creation for the most part. As for the half and half elf, as stated previously by other posters, pick one of the parents' race to be. A good roleplaying/plot device could be the character could appear as a sun elf and keep its dark elven heritage a secret as long as possible to prove its intentions. Although, the way the player created and developed the character, without DM or fellow player input, will lead to a very bad situation for the playing group as upon first meeting the drow the Myth Drannans would kill it and PO the player. The game is supposed to be enjoyed by all players and one character that would continually disrupt the fun causes bad feelings within the group. I've seen this happen before, in a 1st edition game one of our players introduced a gnome illusionist/assassin into our group just to cause problems. Our first encounter ended with a prisoner that the gnome began to torture for info, my ranger killed the gnome, thus ended the session as an argument broke out as the gnome's player said that a good ranger would not kill a fellow party member, no matter the circumstances. He was wrong as good is good and evil is evil, party member or not. He tried a similar tactic a couple of years later with a thief stealing from fellow party members, my ranger (Yes, I've played a lot of rangers) killed his character, no argument this time.
Ramius_Mordale 04-11-04, 11:00 PM	Um, just my opinion here, but I really don't see why you can't have a half-sun elf/ half-drow breed? Just like we have people of mixed racial families in real life. You just don't tag them one or the other. Though I will admit that you have sound logic on the subject, but I haven't read of any such ruling on this about elves being one or the other. But when I said my friend made this PC of his, he okayed it with his DM and used the Skill and Powers (in 2nd Edition, which btw I would like to see made for 3.5) to make this perticular half-sun/half-drow character of his. But besides knowing anything about his character's past not even this guy, who PCs this character, even knows his parents. So I can't tell you anymore then that. Anyways, ah if you know where they say that ruling on elves in the FRCS or any 3.0 or 3.5 version book it would be appreciated. Cause I'd like to look at that for future reference, thanks.
TheGreenGriffon 04-11-04, 11:33 PM	From what our group understands from what we have read is that because Drow are the most powerful of the elven races as far as CR's go, there traits are dominant and thus any mixing of species always creates creatures more drow unless the other race is stronger than the other half. At least this is what we have decided. For example Half-drow despite their human half are always dark skinned (Although not as dark) as their drow blood is dominant. Even in real life genetics have darker skin being dominant. Even if a sun elf and a drow mated most likely they would look like their drow parent despite what culture they took after. Another interesting point is the gods themselves and what they allow. Correllon isnt exactly a forgiving deity. Orcs and Elves cannot mate and produce children simply because Correlon and Gruumsh are bitter enemies. I would think Correllon and Lloth wouldnt want their species mating either, especially Lloth. As for roleplaying, a DM should never force the PC's to accept a character into their midst that their characters would object too. But on the other hand he should know his players and not allow a PC that would disrupt the group dynamic. A good example was back when I was playing 2ed in FR and playing at the time a 14th level human mage with a gold elf bladesinger, a human thief, a human Paladin, an elven Ftr/Wiz/Thief, a dwarven fighter, and a human Druid. Needless to say we were a diverse group but we had been adventuring together since level 1 and had faced cities of drow before and narrowly escaped with our lives. Over 30 years of campaign time later we had generated a deep hatred for Drow (we even faced off against Drizzt on one occasion). A new player wanted to join our group and and despite the DM's warnings rolled up a drow elf. As we traveled away from a mountain full of dragons weary from our latest honor quest we came upon a camp site with a lone traveler. he stood upon hearing us and lowered his hood showing his drow heritage. My mage was the first to act and Mordenkainen's Force missiles greeted him quickly while the melee combatants charged in to disptahc him and to his credit he lasted 2 rounds before falling and having his body looted for all the drow had taken from us. It wasnt until the battle started and the player began to roll dice did we know it was his character. I know myself I wouldnt have acted differently. Only the paladin hadnt attacked the drow as he followed a innocent until proven guilty mentality but at the same time he was a paladin of Helm and didnt protest too much remembering our past with Drow. Know what your getting into before you go running into a race thats not standard.