| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Uzzy04-11-08, 07:53 AM | http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4pod/20080411e22 Transcript later. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin04-11-08, 12:01 PM | Yeah, if I could see a transcript, I'd appreciate it.:) |
| Lord Karsus04-11-08, 12:08 PM | -Yeah, same here. Things are always that much better in copy and pastable text. ;) |
| Daenaan04-11-08, 12:55 PM | From that webpage above, you can listen to it without downloading it. Mostly, it's more of exactly what we've known for some time now. Lots of "it'll be so much better" and Baker and Cordell saying things like "it'll be easier for people to approach". Both talk about how it'll be easier to write novels for the Realms. And Cordell probably says "cool" more times in a half hour than I do in a week. Lots of chuckling around "old things" that "didn't work" (for them, as novelists) and are now gone. One part in the new FRCS will be a set of (mini?) adventures to help new DMs to get into the new Realms and get a feel for it, and (one?) will be set in the city of Loudwater. Greenwood's been working on a new continent "in the west", returned from "Abeir", that will feature an empire of Dragonborn. |
| Lord Karsus04-11-08, 01:14 PM | -****! Ascendency of the Last is a hardcover!? ****! |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin04-11-08, 04:05 PM | -****! Ascendency of the Last is a hardcover!? ****! What the hell?! Daenaan, you're saying that basically this podcast contains no surprises, just more of the same? Oh well. I still wouldn't mind seeing a transcript. |
| Daenaan04-11-08, 05:07 PM | What the hell?! Daenaan, you're saying that basically this podcast contains no surprises, just more of the same? Oh well. I still wouldn't mind seeing a transcript. I didn't really hear much that was new to me at this point... although I did get really bored with the chuckling, the pats-on-the-back, and "this new Realms will be cool", "yeah cool!" stuff and went to the kitchen briefly. They also talked about how some of them wanted to play in Rich Baker's FR realm of Vaasa, with the warlock knights, but I couldn't tell if that was just his campaign or something that'll see its way into 4E. I guess the one "newish" thing I heard was part of what they put Greenwood to work on, which is the new continent "in the west" that was zapped over from Abeir - and it'll have an empire or kingdom of dragonborn. |
| Stigger04-11-08, 06:00 PM | That play on something other than Quicktime? I hate that program with a violent, bloody, and seething passion and dont' want to bother DLing it if I need that steaming pile of garbage. |
| Faraer04-11-08, 06:02 PM | Per the "Countdown to the Realms" (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080111a) articles, the dragonborn land is Tymanther, not in the west but in Unther's place. (I called it being assigned to Ed a few months back.) No hint of what they think the advantages are of replacing Unther instead of having Tymanther in a different gate-linked world and thus having both? |
| Uzzy04-11-08, 06:10 PM | This is copied from EnWorld. I would have done one myself, if I hadn't been at work for the past seven hours. *Red Wizards are led by Zsass (sp? that lich guy). They're scarier and so is Thay. The enclave Red Wizards are unwelcome expatriates who can't return home. *They avoided ret-conning, instead writing story explanations for the changes, they reiterated the policy that FR should be able to include anything in D&D, and they said they used particularly tough fits as opportunities for creativity. *There was more talk about bringing back a sense of wonder and mystery for old players while making the setting accessible to new players, but at the same time, they made sure that the veteran FR fan's library wasn't rendered obsolete. There are supposed to be a lot of "easter eggs" for long time fans of the setting. *Rich made it a particular point that they weren't trying to shoe horn every setting into the PoL philosophy. *Most entries in the book are two pages, but some, like Waterdeep's are longer. (Waterdeep's is six pages.) The entries concentrate more on adventure hooks and settings than history. *Ed is part of the merging of two worlds stuff. Bruce and Rich spoke excitedly about his contributions to the book. They also mentioned that he had written a 100+ page fluff bible for 4E Waterdeep, and that he was writing a novel series set in and around Waterdeep. *The book contains a starting adventure set in Loudwater, and is designed so that you can roll up some characters, play the starting adventure, and then start using the rest of the book to run a campaign. This is for new players who have no idea what FR is about. *There's a fifty page chapter covering villain groups, NPC antagonists, and monsters specific to FR. There's probably other stuff I forgot, but that's a bunch of it. The only thing they really went into detail on were the changes to the Red Wizards. It was more talk about their design philosophy in regards to FR in 4E. |
| capnvan04-11-08, 07:29 PM | Easter eggs? :pbbbtt: Am I the only one who played D&D before I played a computer game? Or do I not wanna know? |
| Dark Wizard04-11-08, 10:11 PM | They also talked about how some of them wanted to play in Rich Baker's FR realm of Vaasa, with the warlock knights, but I couldn't tell if that was just his campaign or something that'll see its way into 4E. Rich confirmed a few months back on the Ask the Designers thread that the Warlock Knights of Vaasa will be one new organization in the new Realms. No details beyond the name of the organization, but the name does give you the gist of it. |
| MarkusTay6304-12-08, 01:35 AM | I made a fairly comprehensive list of comments on the Podcast over at Ck (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9912&whichpage=42), so I don't feel I need to repeat them here. I was only able to get through half of it before I got too queezy to continue. :( Bottom Line: I'm still seeing the conception that FR had "too much detail", which is an utter fallacy that they still insist on clinging to. I guess thats why all we are getting is two books and thats it. I suppose its at least one more then Greyhawk got in 3e. :rolleyes: |
| Stigger04-12-08, 02:35 AM | I thought Greyhawk got two books in 3e... that thin one with the map with the very basic thumbnail of stuff, and then the thicker Gazeteer which I never really looked at. And no, you're not the only one capnvan. ;) |
| Lord Karsus04-12-08, 06:47 AM | -Does anybody want to help me develop, and begin playing my campaign setting? ;) -After reading that transcript, I'll just chuckle a bit. I'll give this to them, they stick to their guns, no matter what. |
| MarkusTay6304-12-08, 10:11 AM | And they do seem to enjoy each other's company, I'll give them that. :D At least we know four people who will be playing in the new FR... Then again... maybe not. ;) @Stigger - I have the larger Tome, and now that you mention it, I think I remember a thinner one. Strangely, I have the map in my thicker one, so if that came with the other book, then I wonder what has become of it. :confused: Either way, I think you're right - there were two book for GH. Just like 4e's Core... errr, I mean 'Flagship'... setting is going to get. :( |
| Lord Karsus04-12-08, 10:23 AM | At least we know four people who will be playing in the new FR... Then again... maybe not. ;) -Haven't they said in the past that no one in the office has played a Forgotten Realms campaign in years? |
| Stigger04-12-08, 10:56 AM | Yes, I believe they did say that... and what confidence that inspires... Markus, the bigger one might have come with one, I really have no idea though as I never picked it up. Can't say Greyhawk ever did all that much for me though, so I never really even looked at it in the store either. |
| MarkusTay6304-12-08, 11:08 AM | -Haven't they said in the past that no one in the office has played a Forgotten Realms campaign in years?Because they weren't familiar with the setting... obviously. :rolleyes: Now that they literally 'wrote the book', I would hope they know enough to run the game at this point. But then again... perhaps not. Trying to listen to the second half of this thing - who's "Meestra"? Is she the new god of Magic after Mystra/Midnight? :confused: ;) :P |
| Lord Karsus04-12-08, 11:17 AM | But then again... perhaps not. Trying to listen to the second half of this thing - who's "Meestra"? -If gotten all over their pronunciations of things in the past, too. They do talk funny. -How do you say it? I say 'Miss-tra'. |
| MarkusTay6304-12-08, 01:01 PM | I say Mie-straa. Also, I love RB talking about Corameer... :rolleyes: I had to actually figure out what in hell he was talking about there. :P |
| Daenaan04-12-08, 01:33 PM | It's miss-tra, not mee-stra. :mad: See here (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Mystra). Someone should tell Cordell to read 1st edition Realms, which has a pronunciation guide for all the gods. He can't even get her name right before killing her. Wait... maybe that's the workaround... they killed an imposter goddess Meeestra, and our lovely Mystra is FINE and hidden somewhere in an Ao-protection program. |
| MarkusTay6304-12-08, 01:47 PM | Yes! Thats it! They desroyed everything they could not pronounce! :eek: Also note they specifically said "all those little villages along the roads" are gone - So they basically NUKED everything Ed wrote about in the Volo's guides. I guess they couldn't be bothered with reading those, either. :bored: |
| Daenaan04-12-08, 01:59 PM | Yes! Thats it! They desroyed everything they could not pronounce! :eek: Also note they specifically said "all those little villages along the roads" are gone - So they basically NUKED everything Ed wroye about in the Volo's guides. I guess they couldn't be bothered with reading those, either. :bored: Why read about what they were planning on torching? Frankly, it's just further proof that everything they've done is to make the new Realms better for themselves as authors. They didn't like reading background material before writing the next trilogy. Well, I have news... no more novels for me. Yep, MY Realms is in an Ao-protection program, permanently safe from their deicidal urges and RSEs. :) |
| MarkusTay6304-12-08, 02:24 PM | I have no intention of reading any novels set in the new era either, even if written by Elain or Ed. I won't read about something I have no interest in. :( |
| Lord Karsus04-12-08, 02:56 PM | I have no intention of reading any novels set in the new era either, even if written by Elain or Ed. I won't read about something I have no interest in. :( -Sadly, me too. Forgotten Realms novels used to make up a large part of my reading diet in the past couple of years...:( |
| capnvan04-12-08, 03:57 PM | Also note they specifically said "all those little villages along the roads" are gone - So they basically NUKED everything Ed wrote about in the Volo's guides. Interesting. They've gone whole hog for the PoL thing, huh? Guess they don't really care too much about explaining where the food comes from for all those people living in the cities, huh? |
| Stigger04-12-08, 06:58 PM | Who needs plausability when you having something as cool and sick as the 4e Realms? :P :D |
| capnvan04-12-08, 07:40 PM | Who needs plausability when you having something as cool and sick as the 4e Realms? :P :D Dare I ask, given that I've been reduced to referencing urbandictionary (http://www.urbandictionary.com/) all too often, but is "sick" in this context intended to be good, or is it a misprint for "slick"? Or am I showing my age by even asking? |
| Daenaan04-12-08, 07:58 PM | Dare I ask, given that I've been reduced to referencing urbandictionary (http://www.urbandictionary.com/) all too often, but is "sick" in this context intended to be good, or is it a misprint for "slick"? Or am I showing my age by even asking? Age thing. |
| capnvan04-12-08, 08:53 PM | Age thing. Dern punk kids! |
| dav04-12-08, 10:28 PM | Dern punk kids! And their music! Never forget their music... |
| Stigger04-13-08, 11:54 AM | Heh, was more a sarcastic reference to one of the words used to describe the new setting by a dev. But yes, it is definitely an age thing. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin04-13-08, 09:15 PM | Also note they specifically said "all those little villages along the roads" are gone - So they basically NUKED everything Ed wrote about in the Volo's guides. What the hell? That's the worst thing I've heard about this podcast so far, actually. Those little villages along the roads weren't too detailed, which is what I thought newcomers to the setting wanted? |
| MerrikCale04-13-08, 10:46 PM | Lots of chuckling around "old things" that "didn't work" (for them, as novelists) and are now gone. probably 'cause they can't write |
| Lord Karsus04-14-08, 07:51 AM | What the hell? That's the worst thing I've heard about this podcast so far, actually. Those little villages along the roads weren't too detailed, which is what I thought newcomers to the setting wanted? -They don't know what they want. -That said, the debates about how food for large cities is produced is going to be getting a jolt of life, now. |
| Jiggawha04-14-08, 10:03 AM | 2 pages on Impiltur, that's a potential improvement yet there's the adventure for the new players, what a waste of space, just like in the previous CS |
| MarkusTay6304-14-08, 10:15 AM | I don't know if it's me, or them, or whatever, but I still find the whole 'Abeir' thing incredibly confusing. At one point, RB makes it sound like a new continent to the west, and at another he says pieces of it replaced pieces of Faerūn. Does that mean that the missing places (like Unther) will be found on this new continent to the west? Or is that just one continent that replaced the Maztican one wholesale, while other parts of Abeir replaced pieces of places? That has got to be one of the worst plot devices ever - the Designers are even having trouble understanding it, I think. :( Those little villages along the roads weren't too detailed, which is what I thought newcomers to the setting wanted?Too many tiny little 'Points of Light' for them. They need wide swaths of 'unknown' beteeen the major urban areas to meet with the 4th edition criteria. probably 'cause they can't writeOkay, that made me laugh... HARD. :rofl: |
| Lord Karsus04-14-08, 10:18 AM | I don't know if it's me, or them, or whatever, but I still find the whole 'Abeir' thing incredibly confusing. At one point, RB makes it sound like a new continent to the west, and at another he says pieces of it replaced pieces of Faerūn. Does that mean that the missing places (like Unther) will be found on this new continent to the west? Or is that just one continent that replaced the Maztican one wholesale, while other parts of Abeir replaced pieces of places? -As I continue to harp on when I talk about it, we don't know what 'Abeir' is: Is it a continent? A planet? A Demiplane? A Plane? What? -Putting everythign we know on the matter together, this is what I think is likely: 'Abeir' is a mobile demiplane, much like Ravenloft, or Neth. It "attached" itself to 'Toril' long ago. It was then "repelled". The Spellplague, for whatever random reason, caused Maztica to change place with a specific landmass on 'Abeir'. In effect, it caused a switch between Maztica, and a part of 'Abeir'. |
| Stigger04-14-08, 10:59 AM | Not sure I'm going to be able to bring myself to even look at the 4e Realms if this is the sort of thing we can expect from it... revulsion is beginning to overcome morbid curiosity. |
| Rauric04-14-08, 11:05 AM | Perhaps the Weave and the current gods were made to dismiss Abeir and keep it and it inhabitants trapped "elsewhere". With the Weave gone it has tried to reclaim the planet. During the 100 years the gods or mortals are able to stop the Abeir invasion but not before it reclaimed parts of Toril. |
| Stigger04-14-08, 11:11 AM | Seems logical enough actually... still leaves a foul taste in my mouth. Don't really care for stories like that myself. But hey, if someone else likes it, I still have the earlier edition stuff to make me happy. |
| MarkusTay6304-14-08, 11:29 AM | Hmmmm... Now I'm picturing an evil (Chaos?) Demi-plane, that travels about the multiverse 'invading' various worlds, like a fantasy version of a huge space armada. Not too shabby.... Like LK says, it 'links' with various worlds, either enslaving them, or more likely using them up for resources (their intelligent species?), and then moves on to the next. When it reached Toril, it met it match, so to speak. It was 'sealed off' from the rest of the Universe, and the Weave was the mechanism that kept it at bay. Which means I was RIGHT, and the Weave being 'neccessary to cast spells' was just a story made up by the church of Mystra (since we know it wasn't neccessary at all). I new that Mystra was 'hiding something' with all of the propaganda her priests spread, and now we have a VERY big reason for it. The 'Magical' Weave was just a cover-story!!! I'm still not loving it, but I can work with it. Thinking of the Aberrations as 'aliens invading from another dimension' at least makes some sense, even if I don't think it really belongs in FR. The Realms have a VERY long history of 'invasions' from peoples and monsters from 'elsewhere', so that part does fit in with the Realms back-story. |
| Rauric04-14-08, 11:33 AM | I like to think that the beings from Abeir were the original inhabitants and the gods were the beings who decided that these "aberrations" had to go. Maybe the Abeirans want what is theirs. Perhaps that is why the aboleths (beings left over from the Abeiran purge) remember how they ruled the planet. This isn't an invasion but a reclaimation of what was theirs to begin with millenia ago. The Old Gods are returning, and bringing the TRUE WORLD with them!!! Mwahahaaaaa!!! |
| MarkusTay6304-14-08, 11:47 AM | That I DON'T like - having the Abeirations as the origianl inhabitants goes against established lore, and just rubs me the wrong way. Having them as invaders, and making headway against the Creator Races, makes more sense. Then perhaps many of their gods sacrificed themselves in order to seal away Abeir, and that is why those gods (except for a couple of Sarrukh ones) cease to exist, and why ultimately those races still 'failed'. A lot depends on what will happen with the Fey (Le'Shay) - Bruce Cordell does seem to have a plan for them, and he hinted at it back in Darkvision. That novel had both 'Elder Evils' (Aberration 'gods'?), and the Le'Shay (a cameo) involved at some point in the past, helping the Imaskari keep them at bay. Could the Imaskari 'God Wall' merely been an extension of the Weave's 'True Purpose'? :eek: Stay Tuned........ |
| Alediran04-14-08, 11:49 AM | I like to think that the beings from Abeir were the original inhabitants and the gods were the beings who decided that these "aberrations" had to go. Maybe the Abeirans want what is theirs. Perhaps that is why the aboleths (beings left over from the Abeiran purge) remember how they ruled the planet. This isn't an invasion but a reclaimation of what was theirs to begin with millenia ago. The Old Gods are returning, and bringing the TRUE WORLD with them!!! Mwahahaaaaa!!! Haven't we already had that in Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion? They even had something similar to prevent Oblivion from taking back the world: The Dragonflame that is ignited every time a new emperor is coronated. Each new data about New Crap they launch only serves to remind me how right I was when I made The Realms Vault. |
| Rauric04-14-08, 11:50 AM | Who writes history and lore? The victors thats who. If I were the new gods I would want to erase as much of the truth away as possible. It doesn't help beings who crave worship to have "their" mortals looking for the original gods and the secrets that they hold. |
| Rauric04-14-08, 11:51 AM | Haven't we already had that in Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion? They even had something similar to prevent Oblivion from taking back the world: The Dragonflame that is ignited every time a new emperor is coronated. Each new data about New Crap they launch only serves to remind me how right I was when I made The Realms Vault. I never played Oblivion. I am just giving an idea I have on what they plan. Just trying to be positive than negative. |
| Alediran04-14-08, 11:55 AM | I played it like five times. The whole main plot revolves on the idea that the Daedric god (the Daedra are your Elder Gods defeated by others, except they were never removed completely) of destruction tries to assasinate the royal family to prevent anybody from igniting the Dragonflame again, they also steal the Dragon Amulet, the artifact necesary to the ignition ceremony. The character's job is to stop that god's plans. |
| Rauric04-14-08, 12:15 PM | Ah. Well if I never played it and came up with a similar idea for TORIL/ABIER then odds are the development team (who probably have not had time to play PC games) came up with same idea but on their own. Plus FR is a copy of several overused plots already. What is one more to ad to the mix? ;) |
| Lord Karsus04-14-08, 12:27 PM | Perhaps the Weave and the current gods were made to dismiss Abeir and keep it and it inhabitants trapped "elsewhere". With the Weave gone it has tried to reclaim the planet. During the 100 years the gods or mortals are able to stop the Abeir invasion but not before it reclaimed parts of Toril. -Sorry. I answered you in the Ask-the-Author thread. Hold on, and let me retrieve it: -That doesn't fit with the timeline of 'Abeir'. GK and BRJ have already 'confirmed' that 'Abeir' was flung away in -31,000 DR. Mystra, and the Weave, would have been created long before that. -There is no "history is wrong" angle, because all of the information we have on 'Abeir' is told from a 3rd person omniscient viewpoint- unless there is specification that it isn't. And, there isn't. |
| Lord Karsus04-14-08, 12:31 PM | Like LK says, it 'links' with various worlds... -No, I didn't say it links with other worlds. We only know that is was somehow linked with 'Toril' in the past. Nothing else. |
| Rauric04-14-08, 12:52 PM | ...and I think that link was because Abeir was Toril until the New gods deposed the Old Gods. Again the Weave may have always been there or perhaps the gods led their followers to believe it was always there. If it was there maybe it was redesigned to hold back Abeir. Perhaps it has nothign to do with Abeir except it disturbance let the Old gods "find" Toril again and since the gods and magic was in such disarray for 90 some years it allowed them to retake what was theirs. |
| msatran04-14-08, 12:54 PM | And they do seem to enjoy each other's company, I'll give them that. :D At least we know four people who will be playing in the new FR... Then again... maybe not. ;) @Stigger - I have the larger Tome, and now that you mention it, I think I remember a thinner one. Strangely, I have the map in my thicker one, so if that came with the other book, then I wonder what has become of it. :confused: Either way, I think you're right - there were two book for GH. Just like 4e's Core... errr, I mean 'Flagship'... setting is going to get. :( And just like other spin doctors who prominently present their point of view, they get you into bed, !@#$% you in the a**, and throw you out the door. That's what "Enjoying each other's company" means at Wizards. |
| Lord Karsus04-14-08, 01:04 PM | That's what "Enjoying each other's company" means at Wizards. -That's pretty...err...bad... |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin04-14-08, 01:47 PM | Quite a vivid mental image, too.:P |
| Lord Karsus04-14-08, 01:58 PM | -Well, leave it to him to make insane and off-colored outlandish statements. ;) |
| Jiggawha04-14-08, 01:59 PM | Can't stand all this Far (notice ''Far'' - how common it should be) Realm/abberation ****, I'm sick of seeing (and describing) piles of sentient entrails all over and that it gains so much attention. I will ever ignore Stardeep. I wasn't against Abeir at first, it had the potential to replace some stuff that was forced and didn't fit into FR. In our modified campaign there is a civilized race that predates the Creator races, that naturally developed, a druidic plant race, not unnatural like abberations, I doubt Chauntea would support the rise of ''mucus sovereignity''. |
| Rauric04-14-08, 02:05 PM | What if Chauntea was not always the earht goddess of the planet though? What if Abeir was what was before and the new gods decided they had to go? |
| Lord Karsus04-14-08, 02:09 PM | I wasn't against Abeir at first, it had the potential to replace some stuff that was forced and didn't fit into FR. -The entire notion of 'Abeir' being a seperate entity, filled with, as far as we know, Aboleth and other Aberrations, is extremely forced, if you ask me. In our modified campaign there is a civilized race that predates the Creator races, that naturally developed, a druidic plant race, not unnatural like abberations, I doubt Chauntea would support the rise of ''mucus sovereignity''. -I don't believe that there is anything native about the Aberrations of 'Abeir'. They are all extraplanar, as I understand it. What if Chauntea was not always the earht goddess of the planet though? What if Abeir was what was before and the new gods decided they had to go? -Chauntea, along with Mystryl, Shar and Selūne, was one of the first entities to exist in Realmspace. Nothing existed in Realmspace before them. |
| Rauric04-14-08, 02:26 PM | So the current gods want everyone to believe.;) I think the 4E book will add this in there. It will do a bit of a retcon perhaps and say that the current gods we know and thought were on Toril at its creation is true, but those gods were also alive during Abeir's end and they were the casue of its displacement. |
| Lord Karsus04-14-08, 02:31 PM | So the current gods want everyone to believe.;) -As I've said before, information written in a 3rd party omniscient POV isn't wrong, misinformed, or anything else. That said, the stories of Mystryl, Shar, Selūne and Chauntea aren't exactly confirmed (as far as I know) as they are myths. Of course, given that the Sarrukh, Batrachi, and so on existed, Chauntea and Mystryl already existed. Thus, the Weave already existed. |
| Rauric04-14-08, 02:40 PM | Perhaps the Weave only existed on Toril? Perhaps it existed the whole time and Mystra was able to tap into it? It is like the whole Luke/Darth thing and what Obiwan said about peoples perspective. The answers will come in August, I am just throwing out some ideas as to what Abeir is and was. |
| Lord Karsus04-14-08, 02:42 PM | Perhaps the Weave only existed on Toril? -The Weave exists in all of Realmspace. Otherwise, magic would not be possible on, say, Garden, or any of the other planets in the solar system. Perhaps it existed the whole time and Mystra was able to tap into it? -The Weave? Mystryl/Mystra was/is the Weave. |
| Rauric04-14-08, 02:56 PM | Perhaps Mystras creation unintentionally displaced abeir then. Maybe when Mystra/Weave came into being Abeir ended and Toril began. P.S I never use the term Realmspace since to me that signifies Spelljammer and that reminds me of bad times and a bad idea IMO. |
| MarkusTay6304-14-08, 02:56 PM | As far as we know...;) -Sorry. I answered you in the Ask-the-Author thread. Hold on, and let me retrieve it: -That doesn't fit with the timeline of 'Abeir'. GK and BRJ have already 'confirmed' that 'Abeir' was flung away in -31,000 DR. Mystra, and the Weave, would have been created long before that. -There is no "history is wrong" angle, because all of the information we have on 'Abeir' is told from a 3rd person omniscient viewpoint- unless there is specification that it isn't. And, there isn't.And I've adressed this over in the "Ask the Dsigners" thread. The information about the beginning of the world and the Creator races has been changed several times over, so we have a canon precedent about that information's innaccuracy. :P The Dragons have a completely different myth.. so are YOU deciding which is correct? :uh-huh: Anything they want to change pre -17,600 is perfectly fine with me. Blame it on prehistoric misinformation, or the 'Changing of the World' when it was sundered, but either way, I have no problem with it. Every other week we learn new stuff about the Real World that disproves older information. Why just last night, I learned that the Philistines were a very advanced culture, and the Israelites were 'philistines' (the deregatory slang term). That from two Jewish archaelogists, who's research is being blocked by the Israeli Gov't (for obvious reasons). Once again, a case of the 'victors' writing history to suit their own ends. There are hundreds of examples of that (the Romans were especially fond of historic revision), so does it really matter so much if a little of that trickles into a fantasy setting? I love the history channel, and other information networks, because I find out that most of the stuff I learned as child is no longer true. Science has retconned history. :D |
| Rauric04-14-08, 03:01 PM | So there is a bit of info on Abeir from Stardeep? What is the general summary of the story? If ya don't mind. |
| Lord Karsus04-14-08, 03:03 PM | Perhaps Mystras creation unintentionally displaced abeir then. Maybe when Mystra/Weave came into being Abeir ended and Toril began. -I adressed this point. Abeir was slung away in -31,000. The Weave, as well as the Creator Races, all existed on the planet at this time. Toril obviously existed. Abeir was slung away because of the "Lost Deities". Read Stardeep, please. As far as we know...;) And I've adressed this over in the "Ask the Dsigners" thread. -Yes, and I've countered it. Let's continue the discussion here, instead of there. The Dragons have a completely different myth.. so are YOU deciding which is correct? :uh-huh: -Myths are myths. No one has ever said anything different. Every other week we learn new stuff about the Real World that disproves older information. Why just last night, I learned that the Philistines were a very advanced culture, and the Israelites were 'philistines' (the deregatory slang term). That from two Jewish archaelogists, who's research is being blocked by the Israeli Gov't (for obvious reasons). Once again, a case of the 'victors' writing history to suit their own ends. There are hundreds of examples of that (the Romans were especially fond of historic revision), so does it really matter so much of a little of that trickles into a fantasy setting? I love the history channel, and other information networks, because I find out that most of the stuff I learned as child is no longer true. Science has retconned history. :D -The Forgotten Realms don't work that way. In the way the setting is presened, we have a script of the world. That canon, unless noted, is wholly unerring. Things were as this script said. Case closed. This script is completely objective. It has no agendas to get across. -Why is this concept so hard to understand? |
| Rauric04-14-08, 03:08 PM | Basically I am saying that anything can happen. Meaning it may not be true today but tomorow the writers may work/retcon something around the old "facts". Anyway I have not and will not read Stardeep. If what you say is true and the Old Gods repelled and invasion from Abeir then I have to rethink things. |
| Lord Karsus04-14-08, 03:12 PM | Anyway I have not and will not read Stardeep. If what you say is true and the Old Gods repelled and invasion from Abeir then I have to rethink things. -Indeed. Hold on, and let me dig out a thread: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=966630 -MT, was it you that wanted to see that, or was it Rino? |
| MarkusTay6304-14-08, 03:17 PM | So you are expecting a higher level of accuracy from a game setting then scientists are able to provide about our world? :uh-huh: For all we know, our own Earth could have Sarrukh and Batrachi 31,000 year ago. Like I said, I don't like them messing with newer history (stuff after the Crown Wars), but primordial stuff like that I would expect to take with a grain of salt. They've changed it several times already, so why would changing it one more time be worse? I personally HATE Abeir and the Aberrations, but I would rather see them change a few things to make them fit better, then to just ignore how they fit into the planets history. If they can come up with a reasonable (key word there) storyline, I'll except it, even if I hate it. As of right now, I'm still trying to figure out how the hell Dragon-people (who hate dragons :rolleyes: ) and Genasi were able to live comfortably side-by-side with the Aberrations of Abeir. I picture it as a place with all sorts of weird psuedo-natural floating terrain (like a lava lamp), and anything that is not an Aberraition should NOT have come from there. Unless Abeir itself was a prime world/Plane that was taken over by the Far Realms. Maybe it was a demi-plane like Ravenloft, that became 'infested' with Aberrations. Still, I don't see how others survived there with things like Aboleths and Illithids running the place. |
| MarkusTay6304-14-08, 03:20 PM | -MT, was it you that wanted to see that, or was it Rino?It was me, and I checked it out the last time you posted a link. :) You know, thats the third set of 'Lost Deities' I've seen for Faerūn. Someone should call the FBI or something... :rolleyes: |
| Lord Karsus04-14-08, 03:34 PM | So you are expecting a higher level of accuracy from a game setting then scientists are able to provide about our world? :uh-huh: -Accuracy, when we are given the completely objective, correct script? Yes. Why do you have such trouble grasping the concept? It was me, and I checked it out the last time you posted a link. :) -No, someone asked me recently, and I coundn't find that link, and thought it had been archived. I guess it was her, then. You know, thats the third set of 'Lost Deities' I've seen for Faerūn. Someone should call the FBI or something... :rolleyes: -There are multiple sets, from multiple cultures, in multiple settings. |
| Rauric04-14-08, 03:37 PM | Perhaps the dragonborn and genasi did live on Toril and got swept away with the aberrations when they were repelled. |
| Rauric04-14-08, 03:42 PM | This is your quote LK "-Long ago, apparently, Aberations and their deities either ruled Abeir-Toril, or attempted to rule Abeir-Toril. As we know from the events of Stardeep, their incursion was repelled at the hands of some ancient, "lost deities". Basically, this conforms with the idea of "Antediluvian Aberrations", from Lords of Madness. Now, this brings up the question, who were these deities who existed long ago, before the dawn of recorded history, and what happened to them?" Ok. So as you said long ago Aberrations and their gods (ghaunador possibly) ruled Abeir-Toril (I say lose the Toril part). Some forgotten gods sent them away (and perhaps many of their followers) to someplace else. Those gods ensed up sleeping. Right? |
| Lord Karsus04-14-08, 03:55 PM | Ok. So as you said long ago Aberrations and their gods (ghaunador possibly) ruled Abeir-Toril (I say lose the Toril part). -The planet was 'Abeir-Toril' until 'Abeir' was flung away. Some forgotten gods sent them away (and perhaps many of their followers) to someplace else. Those gods ensed up sleeping. Right? -They wouldn't be the Sleeping Deities if they weren't sleeping. ;) :cool: |
| Stigger04-14-08, 04:07 PM | That whole Abeir-Toril thing still bugs me... was the first name I learned for the planet, and it bothers me that a simple contraction of a name led to all this stupidity... |
| Rauric04-14-08, 04:07 PM | Perhaps the parts that were ruled by Aberration were named Abier and the places rules by the other gods were called Toril. Did they mention what the current gods were doing during this time? Did they mention Shar, Selune or Mystra at all? If not I wonder why? |
| Lord Karsus04-14-08, 04:11 PM | That whole Abeir-Toril thing still bugs me... was the first name I learned for the planet, and it bothers me that a simple contraction of a name led to all this stupidity... -Agreed. Perhaps the parts that were ruled by Aberration were named Abeir and the places rules by the other gods were called Toril. -The planet's proper name (and in my mind, it's current name) was called 'Abeir-Toril'. Did they mention what the current gods were doing during this time? Did they mention Shar, Sleune or Mystra at all? If not I wonder why? -In the context of the novel, no, as said deities had no place in the story Bruce Cordell was telling. That said, all existed. |
| Stigger04-14-08, 04:12 PM | Because it was just the blasted name of the planet and not meant to impart some hidden secret meaning that's apparently been pulled out of some developer's arse perhaps? |
| Rauric04-14-08, 04:14 PM | Perhaps it was Ed's idea on how to bring his non-TSR ideas into WOTCs FR. |
| Stigger04-14-08, 04:18 PM | Well, whoever came up with it deserves a swift kick of utmost pain in the posterior... Ed or no Ed. |
| MarkusTay6304-14-08, 04:19 PM | Maybe the Aberrations cam first, as Ruric believes (and Stardeep suggestes), but at some later date all of those Ichyoidic Creatures lived in a certain part of the planet - the 'Abeir part'. Then, there was a great famine, and Sushi became a main staple of everyone's diet in Toril (the other part). they went over to the Abeir half, and used those poor creatures as a food source (hence - 'Abeir'-rations). Those gods were really trying to save the poor little critters from gettin' all 'ate up', and now they're back, with a vengeance. :devil: Kind of turning stuff, so it's a "who ate who first?" thing. ;) |
| Stigger04-14-08, 04:21 PM | *snicker* |
| Rauric04-14-08, 04:21 PM | I think Ed is going to be writing about some of the unidentified land masses finally. They might be tied into the Abeir returning story or something else. Not sure yet. |
| Lord Karsus04-14-08, 04:24 PM | Because it was just the blasted name of the planet and not meant to impart some hidden secret meaning that's apparently been pulled out of some developer's arse perhaps? -Yes, 'Abeir' was originally the name of Jeff Grubb's campaign world, and he just tacked that onto 'Toril' arbitrarily, so that 'Abeir-Toril' would be the first entry in the Cyclopedia of the Realms. Nothing more, nothing less. I think Ed is going to be writing about some of the unidentified land masses finally. They might be tied into the Abeir returning story or something else. Not sure yet. -He has been tasked to write 30,000 words, I believe. Of that, a portion of it (I don't know how much) was supposed to be about the new continent to the west- 'Abeir'- that replaced Maztica. |
| Rauric04-14-08, 04:29 PM | Ahh, I did not know that. So Ed is going to be doing stuff about Abeir then? I am assuming that the Maztica/Toril stuff was replaced by Abeir stuff. |
| Lord Karsus04-14-08, 04:34 PM | So Ed is going to be doing stuff about Abeir then? I am assuming that the Maztica/Toril stuff was replaced by Abeir stuff. -Presumably, since Maztica swapped places with the portion of 'Abeir' that is replacing it. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin04-14-08, 09:03 PM | Perhaps it was Ed's idea on how to bring his non-TSR ideas into WOTCs FR. I'll agree with that idea when I see ironclad proof of it. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin04-14-08, 09:04 PM | -Well, leave it to him to make insane and off-colored outlandish statements. ;) Him and Markus.;) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin04-14-08, 09:07 PM | Can't stand all this Far (notice ''Far'' - how common it should be) Realm/abberation ****, I'm sick of seeing (and describing) piles of sentient entrails all over and that it gains so much attention. I will ever ignore Stardeep. I wasn't against Abeir at first, it had the potential to replace some stuff that was forced and didn't fit into FR. In our modified campaign there is a civilized race that predates the Creator races, that naturally developed, a druidic plant race, not unnatural like abberations, I doubt Chauntea would support the rise of ''mucus sovereignity''. Piles of sentient entrails. Mucus sovereignty. More great mental imagery!:D |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin04-14-08, 09:09 PM | -Indeed. Hold on, and let me dig out a thread: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=966630 -MT, was it you that wanted to see that, or was it Rino? Could have been me, in any case thanks for the link! |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin04-14-08, 09:11 PM | Because it was just the blasted name of the planet and not meant to impart some hidden secret meaning that's apparently been pulled out of some developer's arse perhaps? Go to the head of the class, you're correct. ;) |
| capnvan04-15-08, 03:19 AM | So you are expecting a higher level of accuracy from a game setting then scientists are able to provide about our world? :uh-huh: Well, yeah, actually. For the obvious reason that a game setting is completely arbitrary. There is no history - there's only what the designers have come up with. I haven't picked up the GHoTR yet, but if there were an invasion of pink giant space hamsters in there, I might say, wow that's a really dumb idea, but it would still be part of the canon, and therefore "true" for the purposes of the setting. Which is one of the reasons that the designers ought to have been exceedingly careful in the alterations and changes they have wrought! Ultimately, even if they say 1+1=3, that's the canon for the Realms! (Albeit, some of us might just say, "You know, we're not going to be playing in the canon Realms anymore." I, for one, have pretty much already made that decision - unless we're still playing in the canon Realms as long as its pre-Spellplague, I guess.) Changes are not made because the designers have discovered some new truth, or some better way of describing the Faerunian world. That's what science does. Changes are made in a game setting to promote some agenda (be it more sales, to have it make "better sense," etc.). Despite the bleatings of a fair number, and the failings of individuals, science doesn't have an agenda, other than explaining the natural world. Which is the point - this isn't a natural world. It's fiction! In short, the designers are, in the closest sense of the word, God as it comes to the Realms. When they say, "Let there be light," there's light. While their motives may not be perfect, they have, essentially, omniscience and omnipotence. And, as we've learned, with great power comes great responsibility - one should be careful hurling around those destructive forces. A lesson that apparently hasn't made it to the Pacific Northwest. |
| Lord Karsus04-15-08, 08:12 AM | Him and Markus.;) -Yes, them two. But, in a lovable way. Not like others that make outlandish statements, but are inflamatory. |
| Lord Karsus04-15-08, 08:14 AM | Could have been me, in any case thanks for the link! -I'm sorry I didn't find it earlier. When I was going through my 'subscribed threads', I must have glossed over it, and I figured it was archived, and gone. But, I found it, so there you go. Well, yeah, actually. For the obvious reason that a game setting is completely arbitrary. There is no history - there's only what the designers have come up with. I haven't picked up the GHoTR yet, but if there were an invasion of pink giant space hamsters in there, I might say, wow that's a really dumb idea, but it would still be part of the canon, and therefore "true" for the purposes of the setting. Which is one of the reasons that the designers ought to have been exceedingly careful in the alterations and changes they have wrought! Ultimately, even if they say 1+1=3, that's the canon for the Realms! (Albeit, some of us might just say, "You know, we're not going to be playing in the canon Realms anymore." I, for one, have pretty much already made that decision - unless we're still playing in the canon Realms as long as its pre-Spellplague, I guess.) Changes are not made because the designers have discovered some new truth, or some better way of describing the Faerunian world. That's what science does. Changes are made in a game setting to promote some agenda (be it more sales, to have it make "better sense," etc.). Despite the bleatings of a fair number, and the failings of individuals, science doesn't have an agenda, other than explaining the natural world. Which is the point - this isn't a natural world. It's fiction! In short, the designers are, in the closest sense of the word, God as it comes to the Realms. When they say, "Let there be light," there's light. While their motives may not be perfect, they have, essentially, omniscience and omnipotence. And, as we've learned, with great power comes great responsibility - one should be careful hurling around those destructive forces. A lesson that apparently hasn't made it to the Pacific Northwest. -You put it in such a sucinct way that I could not. |
| Stigger04-15-08, 09:00 AM | Well said Capn, could scarcely agree more. |
| MarkusTay6304-15-08, 09:35 AM | A matter of opinion again, I think. I don't think changing stuff about the DISTANT past is all that bad, because I personally think its more realistic that way (no one really knows what happened back then). To say that everything is known about a planet 32,000 years in the past is VERY unrealistic, so the further back we go, the less reliable I feel the lore is. If you want to take everything you read as the absolute truth, then thats fine, but weather its a game world or the Real one, new facts become available all the time. These new facts don't neccessarily change things, but often change how we view certain events. For instance, we have always known that Karsus screwed up and dropped Netheril on it's head, but now we have new lore to help explain how a genius could have made such a stupid mistake. Not really a retcon, as much as new information putting a different slant on things. If they turned around and said Ioulum is the one that cast the spell, then that would be a retcon. If we went further back in the past, to the time of the Creator Races lets say, then not so much. I just don't see history set in stone like that - at least not as far back as we are discussing here (pre-Creator Race/ beginning of the World). So, I have a question now for everyone: Some of us plan to move forward to 4e FR, while a lot of us plan on sticking with 3e Realms and disregarding all the new lore. However, where do we draw the line? :confused: Bruce Cordell's Stardeep novel was clearly written as a precursor to 4e, but it was written in 3e... so do we choose to ignore it as well? |
| Keryth04-15-08, 09:50 AM | Perhaps the Weave and the current gods were made to dismiss Abeir and keep it and it inhabitants trapped "elsewhere". With the Weave gone it has tried to reclaim the planet. During the 100 years the gods or mortals are able to stop the Abeir invasion but not before it reclaimed parts of Toril. OHhkay. When did we stop playing D&D and start playing TORG? |
| Lord Karsus04-15-08, 09:52 AM | -There is an 'Abeir' thread. Let's try to keep all discussion of 'Abeir' in that thread, because it's getting extremely annoying going back and forth, saying the same exact thing in seventeen different threads. |
| Stigger04-15-08, 10:02 AM | I ignore most of the novels myself... keep what little I want of them, discard the rest, at least as far as my own campaign is concerned. Discussion around here is a bit different though. As to history, were it the real world, an understanding of history would be constantly refined as we discover more evidence of events, and is something I have no problem accepting. However, in a fictitous world, a historical model is far more static, with no new discoveries to the historical record other than the ones the designers choose to include, so its a lot less palatable to me when someone comes along and adds new things to the past simply for the sake of doing so. Having said that, I have no problems with additions that clarify or explain some of the events that are already known, but when its apparently something put in place to 'justify' some new thing that is completely out of context with the established world, it just rubs me the wrong way. Probably why I don't like all this Abeir stuff... it was clearly presented (in 2e at least, possibly 1e as well) that Abeir-Toril was the name of the planet, nothing more. To add in all this lost world garbage in order to justify injecting a designers obsession with Abberations is just asinine to me. If they wanted to add them in, there are a variety of ways it could have been done without such an invasive mauling of prior lore. Same goes for all this Shar/Shadow crap as well. The inclusion of things itself I don't really have a problem with so much as the manner its gone about in. |
| Lord Karsus04-15-08, 10:06 AM | If they wanted to add them in, there are a variety of ways it could have been done without such an invasive mauling of prior lore. -It's not like Aboleth, and other Aberration-type creatures don't exist...:rolleyes: |
| Stigger04-15-08, 10:08 AM | Indeed... there's a variety of ways they could have brought them to the forefront without the historical revisionism. |
| Rauric04-15-08, 10:28 AM | OHhkay. When did we stop playing D&D and start playing TORG? Hey look! Dice rolling, dragons, dungeons and smelly nerds. looks like D&D to me. Thanks for interjecting some incredible insights into this conversation. LK doesn't agrre with me or like the idea but he has a bit more class. Plus he is probably about 20 years yourr junior. ;) Anyway this could be someone elses idea than the designers everyone usually hates on. Ed is working on the new continents which will seemingly be Abeir. |
| Jiggawha04-15-08, 11:24 AM | What if Chauntea was not always the earht goddess of the planet though? What if Abeir was what was before and the new gods decided they had to go? possible, or according to Ed Chauntea is the planet, she isn't like Mystra, just an interface for accessing raw magic, maybe it's like in the Gaia hypothesis, aberrations are unnatural, the disease of the planet, cancerous tissue that got spit out once, now it's back due to the lowered immunity |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin04-15-08, 01:42 PM | -Yes, them two. But, in a lovable way. Not like others that make outlandish statements, but are inflamatory. Yes, I agree. They are lovable.:) -I'm sorry I didn't find it earlier. When I was going through my 'subscribed threads', I must have glossed over it, and I figured it was archived, and gone. But, I found it, so there you go. Thanks! |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin04-15-08, 01:45 PM | Anyway this could be someone elses idea than the designers everyone usually hates on. Ed is working on the new continents which will seemingly be Abeir. It could be someone else's idea, but not Ed's, as per what he has stated on Candlekeep. Just because Ed is detailing an area (and actually trying hard to make what he writes good) doesn't mean it was his idea to bring the area into the Realms in the first place. |
| Lord Karsus04-15-08, 02:07 PM | Yes, I agree. They are lovable.:) -In a grizzley bear kind of way, of course. |
| Dark Wizard04-16-08, 12:08 AM | So, I have a question now for everyone: Some of us plan to move forward to 4e FR, while a lot of us plan on sticking with 3e Realms and disregarding all the new lore. However, where do we draw the line? :confused: Bruce Cordell's Stardeep novel was clearly written as a precursor to 4e, but it was written in 3e... so do we choose to ignore it as well? I'm steadily forming my divergent Realms as more information comes out. I want to attempt my own take on it using as much of the official information as possible, up to a point. Sometimes I feel like making sculptures out of the dirt they hand us. It's a fun challenge. My only problem is time constraints. Not everyone gets a full time job B.S.ing. The designers are blessed to have a job that lets them get creative. Anyway this could be someone elses idea than the designers everyone usually hates on. Ed is working on the new continents which will seemingly be Abeir. Maybe he wants to work on something new, if given the chance, rather than put all his effort on the main part of the setting he spent decades establishing, yet got trampled over by others. Not unlike diversifying his investment portfolio after a bit of a fall in the market. |
| SmartPaladin04-16-08, 02:10 AM | Yeah... I'll probably buy 4E FR. There, I said it. And the whole time I'm playing I'll be doing my best old man to all the younger players. "Ya know? Back in my day, we didn't have Dragonborn, or Swordmage's, we had a Goddess of Magic, and other deities who were their own "people" and not just the same deities in different clothing! And ya know what? We liked it!" I'll probably also buy at least one of the 4E novels. Swordmage sounds cool... I'm a sucker for sword and sorcery. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin04-16-08, 02:46 PM | So, I have a question now for everyone: Some of us plan to move forward to 4e FR, while a lot of us plan on sticking with 3e Realms and disregarding all the new lore. However, where do we draw the line? :confused: Bruce Cordell's Stardeep novel was clearly written as a precursor to 4e, but it was written in 3e... so do we choose to ignore it as well? I'm going to. We do we draw the line? I think each person has an answer that they are comfortable with--there isn't a "one size fits all" answer here.:) I actually made the decision to start ignoring certain novels before the 4E announcement was even made, and so I'll happily discard certain 3E lore that I dislike, as well. |
| capnvan04-16-08, 04:55 PM | So, I have a question now for everyone: Some of us plan to move forward to 4e FR, while a lot of us plan on sticking with 3e Realms and disregarding all the new lore. However, where do we draw the line? In the sand? :hides: |
| Stigger04-16-08, 07:20 PM | Really, a line doesn't need to be drawn. A good idea is a good idea, regardless of edition (or setting even, really), and as such should be adopted (with a bit of modification to make it coherent of course) if its appealing. |
| Grimslade200104-17-08, 10:37 AM | So what are peoples thoughts on the rejiggering of the Red Wizards into inhabitants of the Plateau of Leng? It melds a little better with how I portrayed the Red Wizards, aloof and mysterious evil. The imagined evil of the residents of the plateau are tame compared to the reality. Maybe this means the Zhents can have their corrupting evil schtick back. |
| MarkusTay6304-17-08, 11:05 AM | I like it (oh no! A 4e FR compliment!) :eek: I would rather have them be the dark and mysterious uber-necromancers Ed wanted them to be, then the super-store building Thaymart merchants. I LOVE how they split the Thaymart guys ooff from the Thayans - two seperate groups works better for me, and actually adds some interesting dynamics. I always pictured their mercantile efforts in competition to Aurora's, there magical might rivaled by Halruua (sadly, now gone), and their plans of world domination in contention with the Zhent's. One of the few things I'm interested in the 4e world are these two groups of Red Wizards, and how they handle the interplay between 'Szass's boys' and the expatriates. And I've decided to design a world of my own for 4e, with help from my son, loosely based on FR, with bits thrown in from several other settings I admire. Three, maybe Four, continents, and lots of and lots of Islands, big and small. Each continent will have a completely different flavor, so I don't have to go off-world to have different campaigns going. :) One of the key concepts I'm going for is different races, rather then sub-races. My 'High Elves' (Eladrin) will be more like Moorcock's Melniboneans, or the Undying Court of Eberron. Wood Elves a completely different group (the Aelfir?), as will the Dark Elves. Different Races altogether (with perhaps a common parentage hidden way back in time). Same for Dwarves and others - I don't want any subraces - each race will be unique unto itself. I'm thinking this is really the way to go IMGs - the future of FR holds very little interest for me. Now I can just take what I like from each edition and setting, and not have to worry about how 'canon' anything is. I find it funny that I used to wrry about that - I had the city of Shade in my FR, just because it was canon, but choose to ignore. Pretty silly, huh? Why have stuff you don't like in your games? Paul Kemp made me realize that Shades can be cool, when done right. Now I can use them, without all that 'long-lost city returning' crap they kept piling on us in 3e. That means, come August, I might not have much reason to hang-out here anymore. :( |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin04-17-08, 12:26 PM | So what are peoples thoughts on the rejiggering of the Red Wizards into inhabitants of the Plateau of Leng? Apparently, the Plateau of Leng is straight out of Lovecraft's works. I'm not in favor of making the Realms Lovecraftian, because that's not what the setting was meant to be about. I liked the old Red Wizards better. The old Thay was NOT safe and happy place, it did not need to be tweaked like this. And, this particular tweaking reeks of designers changing a part of the setting just because they like their ideas more (in this case, Lovecraftian stuff), not because those ideas mesh well into the setting. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin04-17-08, 01:12 PM | That means, come August, I might not have much reason to hang-out here anymore. :( What about the company?:( |
| Stigger04-17-08, 03:01 PM | What Rino said, on both counts. |
| Keryth04-17-08, 03:45 PM | So what are peoples thoughts on the rejiggering of the Red Wizards into inhabitants of the Plateau of Leng? It melds a little better with how I portrayed the Red Wizards, aloof and mysterious evil. The imagined evil of the residents of the plateau are tame compared to the reality. Maybe this means the Zhents can have their corrupting evil schtick back. Never liked the whole Enclave idea, so, I've basicall ignored it since 3.0 came out. Therefore, 4e Thay still holds nothing for me, because my Red Wizards never stopped being evil Archmages and stayed out of the magic item business. Then again, my Realms has not been canon for some time. Never liked Shade, so, I derailed that by having Iolaum realize what was happening with Karsus and Shade and put certain contingencies in place using Chronomancy. Whne the magic was triggered to bring Shade back, it triggered Ioulaums magic, and destroyed Shade abd used the magic of that enclave and the spells to bring it back to instead bring NETHERIL back, subsuming Anauroch and deeating the ancient plans of the Phaerimm. Made a duplicate in essence, so, the fall of Netheril and all it entailed still happened but now Netheril is in the present. They make a far better enemy than the shades and keeps Shar in her place, as a MINOR deity. No lame shadow weave either. |
| Alediran04-17-08, 04:34 PM | I love the enclave's idea, perfect oportunity to make players stand in their toes when they got caught in the middle of conflicts between the red wizards enclaves and the local authorities. Especialy when the player's used the red wizards to acquire magic items. |
| MarkusTay6304-17-08, 07:35 PM | I didn't realize that the Plateau of Leng was a Lovecraftian reference. Can I change my vote now to DEEP HATRED of the change? I thought it was some RW Tibetan-type place. :( What about the company?:(For that, yes. :) Plus, we still discuss things here that aren't FR (like mechanics), and FR fans tend to have some pretty cool ideas. I suppose it would be a waste to stop using such a resource. And besides, a lot of my countries will be based on FR ones, so that can be my excuse to still come here. :D |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin04-17-08, 09:13 PM | I didn't realize that the Plateau of Leng was a Lovecraftian reference. Can I change my vote now to DEEP HATRED of the change? Yes, by all means! For that, yes. :) Plus, we still discuss things here that aren't FR (like mechanics), and FR fans tend to have some pretty cool ideas. I suppose it would be a waste to stop using such a resource. And besides, a lot of my countries will be based on FR ones, so that can be my excuse to still come here. :D I'm glad to hear it.:) |
| Alediran04-18-08, 08:44 AM | MT, you can also come to The Realms Vault for that. It's one of the reasons I had when I created it, and you should check my PbP campaign. It's getting very interesting, I love DMing with players who know the realms. |
| Keryth04-18-08, 09:13 AM | I love the enclave's idea, perfect oportunity to make players stand in their toes when they got caught in the middle of conflicts between the red wizards enclaves and the local authorities. Especialy when the player's used the red wizards to acquire magic items. Perhaps. I just never could swallow the idea of magic Marts, much less ones run by Red Wizards. And the idea of places WILLINGLY letting the Red Wizards into their cities under the auspices of being magic merchantys, was just...wrong. Never liked the idea |
| Lord Karsus04-18-08, 09:31 AM | Perhaps. I just never could swallow the idea of magic Marts, much less ones run by Red Wizards. And the idea of places WILLINGLY letting the Red Wizards into their cities under the auspices of being magic merchantys, was just...wrong. Never liked the idea -As I've discussed before, it's a sensible and natural evolution of Thay's "war machine". |
| Stigger04-18-08, 03:17 PM | To be honest, while I accept it as something that happened, I still think the enclave idea is just stupid. I could swallow it much more easily if it weren't for that Thayan Soil concept that's part of the deal... I just can't see many nations going for that in the Realms. |
| MarkusTay6304-18-08, 06:48 PM | I prefer to think of them as Thayan Embassies, and that most nations figure "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer". The 'mart' part grew out of that, as a way for the various Enclaves to independently support themselves (as investing Zulkirs and Tharchions realized they were being watched as readily as they were watching, and cut-off funding). It probably started out with the enclaves opening something akin to an 'open-air market' with fresh fruit and vegetables - Thayan Oranges would go over BIG in the colder regions. Then as time went on, they started to include other, non-Thayan merchandise (now acting as traders), probably from far-off kara-Tur and other exotic locales. And eventually, all of this lead to a 'back room' sort of affair, where 'items of special interest' could be sold to discreet customers. It's become something of an 'open secret', since many of the 'authorities' find a use for the Thayan magic themselves. Thats how I look at it - an evolution over the last fifteen years or so, wherein the initial purpose has change quite a bit from the original intent. Thats part of why I like the new take on them for 4e - It fits with my way of thinking, and is an obvious evolution for a group of embassadors-turned-merchant, cut-off from their homeland. I never thought of them as a big storefront on a busy street with a huge neon sign out front and a giant inflatable Beholder hovering over the place. ;) |
| Stigger04-19-08, 02:29 AM | They weren't intended to be neon-lit supermarts of magic, at least that wasn't my impression of them. But the fact that they started with the ministry of foreign trade, which at the time was an insignificant bureau, does suggest that you may be right about their more mundane commercial origins. Considering that they supplied a lot of the Inner Sea coastal nations with food, it would seem likely that it was indeed agricultural in its original incarnation. Not too sure about the exotic angle though, but if that's your take... ;) Still don't like the embassy aspect of it though. |
| MarkusTay6304-19-08, 10:15 AM | Well, the embassies were really fronts for spying (just like in the RW), but the places that had them were smart enough to realize this (just like the RW). Figure they were just one of Thay's many plans that failed. Now, all of these Red Wizards have gotten used to operating independently, out form under the Zulkirs thumbs (for the most part), and are now making the best of it. These days, the spying stuff doesn't go much beyond giving a safe-house to Red Wizards who are out 'in the field' on missions. And I wouldn't put it past some of those Enclave Leaders (in Waterdeep and Tethyr?) to work with local authorities, and use their own information networks to point out 'dissidents' and spys (including their own!). Thats the way RW informants work - the cops leave them alone, and look the other way, as long as they provide info to fry bigger fish. If you play them that way, as self-serving expatriates, then the whole thing makes much more sense (especially considering the 4e changes). |
| Stigger04-19-08, 02:56 PM | The Waterdhavian Enclave isn't actually operating legally (or openly for that matter)... but I see your point. ;) |