Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Strider_of_Harrodale 11-17-06, 08:30 PM	Anyone know if there are going to ever be new PC games? I'd even be willing to accept third edition...Sorta learned how to figure what my THACO is in that world....But...Just barely. I'm getting tired of IWD and IWD2 over and over.... None of my DOS games will play and I'm thinking of going back to school for game design just to develop one....."Without Cheats Available"
Lord Karsus 11-17-06, 08:34 PM	-Well, if you don't know, there is Neverwinter Nights. An awesome game, and it has a few expansion packs. If you want the game, your best bet is to get Neverwinter Nights Platnium, which includes all of the expansion packs. That cost be $29.99 at Best Buy. -Neverwinter Nights II just came out a week or so ago. I've yet to get it, but it's had some pretty good reviews, so I hear.
theartistformerlyknownas 11-17-06, 08:40 PM	They released Neverwinter Nights Diamond, which has (supposedly) even more than the platinum edition, but I don't know the details. And I just recieved a free copy of Neverwinter Nights II, but have yet to play it.
Lord Karsus 11-17-06, 08:44 PM	They released Neverwinter Nights Diamond, which has (supposedly) even more than the platinum edition, but I don't know the details. -What more could there be!? And I just recieved a free copy of Neverwinter Nights II, but have yet to play it. -Free...Lucky dog. :rolleyes:
theartistformerlyknownas 11-18-06, 12:39 AM	-What more could there be!? Well, they put it in a new box, and slapped a more expensive price tag on it. -Free...Lucky dog. Compliments my brother, along with the new notebook to go with it. Bastard has money to burn, and likes to rub my nose in it... :rolleyes:
BadCatMan 11-18-06, 12:59 AM	NWN Diamond has some new mini-adventurers thrown in, after they were only available on the BioWare website. You only mentioned IWD - have you not heard of Baldur's Gate? Plus there's Demon Stone, and some other BGs for the Playstations and stuff. Dude, have you been under a rock? :D
BrianCritchley 11-18-06, 02:20 AM	Neverwinter Nights 2.
starsheep 11-18-06, 02:57 AM	NWN Diamond is the original game, both expansions, as well as three of the six premium modules (Kingmaker, ShadowGuard, Witch's Wake). Got it for 20 bucks at EBGames. That is what I call a bargain.
BrianCritchley 11-18-06, 03:47 AM	the premium modules are also pretty good. although with the amount of free good content out there it's questionably worth the money
Davidw 11-18-06, 03:34 PM	Anyone know if there are going to ever be new PC games? Yes. Quite a few, I imagine. :)
Valten 11-19-06, 05:42 PM	Do what I did because I played a lot of BGII and other infinity engine games modified with mods which pleased me to practically no end. Then I bought Neverwinter Nights, completed it and started rping on various rp persistent worlds. For NWN2 I'll be getting it in a few days (my computer should be fixed then) then I'll be working on a PW for rp with others. Will be setting it in the Moonsea www.zhentilkeep.net It's a great alternative to pnp because I don't know anyone who pnp's so I do it online.
Strider_of_Harrodale 11-19-06, 07:33 PM	Thanks everyone... Yep...Played Baldurs Gate and BG2... I've recently purchased Dungeon Lords and Dungeon Siege II...DS II is not bad but from what I cal tell trying Dungeon Lords....It's all Hack and Slash...:eek: (probably for folks with Gamepads or PS2 or have stayed out all night to get PS3). Doom sorta discribes these types well.. Ive thought about Neverwinter Nights....(Used to have toe old version..(Can't find the disks) but I am NOT about about to pay some service so I can play On-Line with folks that do nothing else and have plenty of time to XP up their folks and then just kill the new guy. Love to fine some real gamers that play once a week or so at someones house with a DM that doesn't need a Campaign Setting to Be a DM....;) (Gues I kinda got spoiled wilt the last one I had while in Philly). I don't mean to sound synical :P but I'm just not impressed with having to own a specific type of Game system to get a good variation of Role Playing Games. I'd really like to see if they could bring back Eye of the Beholder in a version that would work on XP....Now, That was a KOOL few weeks of play...
Strider_of_Harrodale 11-19-06, 07:36 PM	Nope...No Rock...Work, and when I can get a chance to play...I'd like to have to use my head and not just hack and slash..
Strider_of_Harrodale 11-19-06, 08:03 PM	To Valten... That would be a bit of alright...I'll be waiting to hear more... Looks like I've got to break down and get NWN ...
BrianCritchley 11-19-06, 08:23 PM	[QUOTE=Strider_of_Harrodale;1068639 Ive thought about Neverwinter Nights....(Used to have toe old version..(Can't find the disks) but I am NOT about about to pay some service so I can play On-Line with folks that do nothing else and have plenty of time to XP up their folks and then just kill the new guy. I ...[/QUOTE] *sighs* NWN is 4 years old and there are still people who think it's some MMORPG. it's not. you buy it and that's that. you do not have to pay to play it online. it's free.
Lord Karsus 11-19-06, 08:30 PM	Ive thought about Neverwinter Nights....(Used to have toe old version..(Can't find the disks) but I am NOT about about to pay some service so I can play On-Line with folks that do nothing else and have plenty of time to XP up their folks and then just kill the new guy. -NWN has an on-line part, true, but it is also a single-player game. I, for one, have never played it on-line. It's just as enjoyable playing with yourself than playing with others...Heh... Love to fine some real gamers that play once a week or so at someones house with a DM that doesn't need a Campaign Setting to Be a DM....;) (Gues I kinda got spoiled wilt the last one I had while in Philly). -Then...Look for some. :P I'd really like to see if they could bring back Eye of the Beholder in a version that would work on XP....Now, That was a KOOL few weeks of play... -Oh, that reminds me. Eye of the Beholder is a game for the Game Boy Advance. I don't know if it's the same one you are remincing about (EotB was a little before my time), but there's another option for you.
Red_Wizard 11-21-06, 09:19 AM	Also, Baldurs Gate 3 (followup to the real BG series, not the Dark Alliance who ha) was re-announced in 2004, and was supposed to be released, or at least clarified along with NWN 2 (No word yet). It was orginally started by Black Isle, until they went under, and Atari took up the rights. Now what i wanna see, is a Demon Stone 2, but this time with atleast some minor form of Character customization. That was an amazing game, all it needed was the choice to be someone from your own imagination to make it doubly so. edit: Aslo, did you play the expansions for BG, and BG 2? and the Heart of winter for IWD? And, if you have NWN, look for a module called Cormyrs Crown (i think thats right), was supposed to be a premium Module, and it was scrapped after compeltion. That is, when your done the game itself, and the 2 expansions. And ofcourse don't go online with it afterwards (or come to the freakin awesome NWN2 :P)
Noxweather 11-21-06, 10:12 AM	I'm playing NWN2 at the moment and was waiting what seemed like forever for it’s release. I play the original BG and IWD computer games and loved them; NWN2 is the first game I’ve actually went out and purchased for many years. However after installing the DVD and being totally under whelmed by the intro and its clichéd use of ‘bullet time’ an hour or two of solid playing it has left me feeling very disappointed. The game (like most computer games these days IMO) is extremely linear, the graphics aren’t great, Uthgar isn’t there (so bang goes my barbarian idea), the looped music is annoying, the elves are just plain fugly, and the character voices are hammy at best. The lack of customisation is my main gripe, I mean come on even those WWE wrestling games they churn out every few months have way better options for character creation than this supposed roleplaying game and that’s just a beat em up! When are they going to make a computer game that does pen and paper roleplaying even the slightest bit of justice? I would at least like the illusion that I can shape the story line and not ride the rails… Maybe I’m just an old grump and should steer clear of computer and video gaming for a decade or two? Ah well…
Valten 11-21-06, 11:08 AM	I think when they went very close to pnp with temple of elemental evil it put a lot of people off the idea. Otherwise with nwn2 I believe they'll be a doing a lot more for the expansions. If you're like me then you wouldnt trust proper rp to single player, it's better online.
Diffan 11-21-06, 11:31 AM	Now what i wanna see, is a Demon Stone 2, but this time with atleast some minor form of Character customization. That was an amazing game, all it needed was the choice to be someone from your own imagination to make it doubly so. Yes, if had Char custom, it would be fantastic. Though I'm sure people are sick of hearing this, but after playing the game, I was wondering if there was a cheat that allowed you to play Drizzt's character through out the rest of the game? Being a fan of his (and of RAS's works) I fought better with him than Zhai and if he can disappear like she can, It would be more fun.
Mr.Sinister 11-21-06, 12:26 PM	Well, you can play an Eye of the Beholder module under Neverwinter Nights. If you get the game, try: http://nwvault.ign.com/ Lots of free and very entertaining fan-made modules, including many pen&paper-based modules. Worth the try.
Red_Wizard 11-21-06, 01:08 PM	Yes, if had Char custom, it would be fantastic. Though I'm sure people are sick of hearing this, but after playing the game, I was wondering if there was a cheat that allowed you to play Drizzt's character through out the rest of the game? Being a fan of his (and of RAS's works) I fought better with him than Zhai and if he can disappear like she can, It would be more fun. Well if you've played either LOTR: TTT, or LOTR: RoTK, you'll know that the game is using the same engine, just somewhere inbetween the two graphics wise. So instantly i assumed that like those games, characters would be unlockable at the end for play use through again....and i was thuroughly dissapointed to find out they were not.....Not to mention the game finished on one of the poorest, most emotionless cutscenes in all history:P
Davidw 11-21-06, 01:47 PM	I'm playing NWN2 at the moment and was waiting what seemed like forever for it’s release. I play the original BG and IWD computer games and loved them; NWN2 is the first game I’ve actually went out and purchased for many years. However after installing the DVD and being totally under whelmed by the intro and its clichéd use of ‘bullet time’ an hour or two of solid playing it has left me feeling very disappointed. The game (like most computer games these days IMO) is extremely linear, the graphics aren’t great, Uthgar isn’t there (so bang goes my barbarian idea), the looped music is annoying, the elves are just plain fugly, and the character voices are hammy at best. The lack of customisation is my main gripe, I mean come on even those WWE wrestling games they churn out every few months have way better options for character creation than this supposed roleplaying game and that’s just a beat em up! When are they going to make a computer game that does pen and paper roleplaying even the slightest bit of justice? I would at least like the illusion that I can shape the story line and not ride the rails… Maybe I’m just an old grump and should steer clear of computer and video gaming for a decade or two? Ah well… I'm playing NWN2 myself right now and I can't say I'm very impressed with it. It's sluggish as anything even with loads of the special effects turned off and I have a pretty decent system. Then again, I'm not sure I'd enjoy it more even with all the special effects on: the storyline is a yawn so far, I've had companions forced on me that I don't want, the voice acting is painfully bad, and it looks like a really ugly game compared to the clear and crisp graphics of BG1 and 2. Actually it looks ugly compared to NWN1 so I shudder to think what all the processing power the game requires is actually doing; it sure isn't making the game look any nicer. Personally I'd have been happy with a game using the same engine as Baldur's Gate and the same kind of gameplay. And I'd like some decent NPCs as well. Give me Minsc and Aerie and Nalia and Imoen and the like, not these faceless two dimensional wonders that seem to populate today's games.
BrianCritchley 11-21-06, 02:42 PM	I've had companions forced on me that I don't want once you get to neverwinter you don't have to take em. until ya get to neverwinter you only have 3 companions that you kinda well.. need. the game being balanced as it is. Personally I'd have been happy with a game using the same engine as Baldur's Gate and the same kind of gameplay balduer's gate was good but the engine is just a little obselete. I suspect NWN2 may have been intendeded as sort of a "test bed" for BG3. sorting out any teething problems etc with the engine
Jiggawha 11-21-06, 02:52 PM	Personally I'd have been happy with a game using the same engine as Baldur's Gate and the same kind of gameplay. And I'd like some decent NPCs as well. Give me Minsc and Aerie and Nalia and Imoen and the like, not these faceless two dimensional wonders that seem to populate today's games. I've always wondered why they've abandoned old 2D ''view'' of BG II and IWD, it still looks much better than NWN II which has ten times greater graphic requirements. FR looked much more real in those games. As much NWN was a good game in some aspects, in graphic it sucked. I'm sure that if new game would be released with BG II it would sell much better.
Davidw 11-21-06, 03:17 PM	once you get to neverwinter you don't have to take em. until ya get to neverwinter you only have 3 companions that you kinda well.. need. the game being balanced as it is. I haven't really found myself needing the companions, though. I disliked the requirement to level my initial companions up so I just left them as they were, figuring that as they were still level 1 they'd get killed so much quicker so I'd be rid of them. Guess what? They do get the killed but then the game just brings them back to life because they're necessary to the plot. Talk about a lame ass bit of game writing... But even now I'm 4th level and my companion is 1st level, I'm finding I don't need him in combat. He gets killed almost every fight and I finish off the rest of the enemies on my own. But you're saying if I can stick with the game's many faults till Neverwinter, I can get rid of all my companions? Might be worth playing for that reason alone. balduer's gate was good but the engine is just a little obselete. I suspect NWN2 may have been intendeded as sort of a "test bed" for BG3. sorting out any teething problems etc with the engine The engine in Baldur's Gate might be dated but it still produced some stunning graphics. Even today, I prefer the nice sunny graphics of BG and Icewind Dale to the leached-of-coloured graphics you get in NWN. And no one's ever going to convince me that better graphics = better game. They don't. Oblivion was a beautiful game but I still didn't care for it much.
Diffan 11-21-06, 04:04 PM	well, since the release of NWN2, i've heard good and bad reviews on it. I haven't played it yet, and I'm not totally convinced that I should buy it. Hells, I don't even know if my comp can run it, lol. But, I have to say that I loved the BG/IWD games, espically IWD II with the 3.0 rules. To those who are playing it right now, do the NPC's in the game react to your character's race, like if I played a Drow, would I be attacked on sight, or just automatically welcomed into their fair city as a common hero?
Ranger REG 11-22-06, 02:37 AM	well, since the release of NWN2, i've heard good and bad reviews on it. I haven't played it yet, and I'm not totally convinced that I should buy it. Hells, I don't even know if my comp can run it, lol. But, I have to say that I loved the BG/IWD games, espically IWD II with the 3.0 rules. To those who are playing it right now, do the NPC's in the game react to your character's race, like if I played a Drow, would I be attacked on sight, or just automatically welcomed into their fair city as a common hero? From what I hear it takes up all your PC's resources. Even if you do meet the Recommended specs, it's still sluggish. Makes wonder if they wrote the program on a supercomputer. Or a PC with just Windows OEM (not including MSIE).
Paradisio 11-22-06, 02:51 AM	But even now I'm 4th level and my companion is 1st level, I'm finding I don't need him in combat. He gets killed almost every fight and I finish off the rest of the enemies on my own. :confused: My party always has the same experience as my main character, and are thus the same level... So I'm a bit confused while you have a level 1 with you, even the LA companions wouldn't be that low in comparison.
BrianCritchley 11-22-06, 04:56 AM	well, since the release of NWN2, i've heard good and bad reviews on it. I haven't played it yet, and I'm not totally convinced that I should buy it. Hells, I don't even know if my comp can run it, lol. But, I have to say that I loved the BG/IWD games, espically IWD II with the 3.0 rules. To those who are playing it right now, do the NPC's in the game react to your character's race, like if I played a Drow, would I be attacked on sight, or just automatically welcomed into their fair city as a common hero? the abd reviews just prove that you can't please everyone all the time. should you get it? sure, go for it, yes there are bugs but what those who dismiss it as crap tend to conveniatly leave out is that Obsidian like bioware before it is very much working with the community to develop patches that fix bugs improve performance etc.if your computer can handle it pick it up. even if those who claim the "campaign" sucks well.. they forget the real beauty with NWN and NWN2 is the ability to make custom modules. I mean I've not played one of the offical campaigns for NWN1 in at least 2 years
Davidw 11-22-06, 08:42 AM	:confused: My party always has the same experience as my main character, and are thus the same level... So I'm a bit confused while you have a level 1 with you, even the LA companions wouldn't be that low in comparison. They have the same experience; I just never levelled them up.
Alediran 11-22-06, 10:01 AM	Belive me when I tell you that you should level them up, things get tought after level 6, and not even my Sun Elf Wizard could kill everything by himself, much less if it where another class.
Aldareth 11-22-06, 10:18 AM	oh yes u better level them up :D my pure dwarfen fighter was down in one round :weep: ( Play D&D mode! )
Davidw 11-22-06, 01:55 PM	Well, it's a moot point anyway. I've quit the game to go back and replay Baldur's Gate 2 instead. Having a real blast so far. :)
BrianCritchley 11-22-06, 05:20 PM	Well, it's a moot point anyway. I've quit the game to go back and replay Baldur's Gate 2 instead. Having a real blast so far. :) but but BAULDER'S GATE 2 SUCKS BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO HAVE NPCS TRAVEL WITH YOU! :P
Davidw 11-22-06, 05:23 PM	No, you have the option of leaving them behind if you don't want them. But while leaving the NPCs behind in NWN2 would be great because they're so awful, who'd ever want to leave Minsc and co behind?
BrianCritchley 11-22-06, 05:32 PM	No, you have the option of leaving them behind if you don't want them. But while leaving the NPCs behind in NWN2 would be great because they're so awful, who'd ever want to leave Minsc and co behind? meh you can leave em behind once you reach neverwinter it's not that far. and frankly the NPCs are useful. neeshka helps open locks which is great if your not a rogue, khelghar is a useful fighter and that's always handy to have. elanee well.. a token healer is good. and the AI controls these characters so it's not like they are a major problem. that being said yeah the characters aren't QUITE as entertaining as the BG2 ones. the 3 way catfight between vicona, aerie and jaheria alone was hilarious
Strider_of_Harrodale 11-22-06, 08:05 PM	Thanks for ALL the inputs folks... Soooooo....What are the "Recommended" PC Requirements for NWN2 anyway??
Davidw 11-23-06, 08:30 AM	A lot higher than what it claims on the box. :) Seriously, my computer has 1.5 GB of RAM, a 3 GHz processor and a 512 MB graphics card and it was sluggish as hell. Don't buy the game unless your specs are quite a bit better than mine. (Actually, don't buy the game at all. Believe me, you'll regret it if you do.)
Red_Wizard 11-23-06, 09:31 AM	I disagree regretting buying it, but it's all really dependant on how much you enjoy the realms, and how you look at the game. If you just like games, and aren't an uber freak about the realms, you'll be on the fence for liking the game....if your like me, and would own the game, even if all it was was 10 minutes of a scene of grass growing in the heartlands, then you'll enjoy it alot better:P
Davidw 11-23-06, 01:47 PM	I don't see why liking the Realms has got anything to do with it. If that was the case, you'd either love or hate every game set in the Realms. NWN2 is just a hugely flawed game with so many things wrong with it that it's a wonder it ever got made in the first place.
Red_Wizard 11-23-06, 04:28 PM	it's made by Obsidion, were you expecting something different ? :rolleyes: But for me it has everything to do with the Realms. I knew it had a very good chance of being bad, and it's about what i figured it would be after playing it. BUT, because it is set in the forgotten realms, i not only pre-ordered it, but i pre-ordered the limited edition. Same with the old Game Blood and Magic, terrible, boring, and flawed RTS, but hey, it's the Realms, so i have to own it.
Davidw 11-23-06, 06:28 PM	Don't tell me you went and bought Pool Of Radiance as well? Ye gods, that's the only game in the history of the world that makes NWN2 look promising.
Valten 11-23-06, 06:38 PM	It helps to install some extra drivers, I'll look for a very good one for ATI and I've been told it works wonders for it, NVidia might be around as well on the same site.
wesleytj 11-23-06, 09:25 PM	I don't see why liking the Realms has got anything to do with it. If that was the case, you'd either love or hate every game set in the Realms. NWN2 is just a hugely flawed game with so many things wrong with it that it's a wonder it ever got made in the first place. The first NWN was the same way when it was first released. Tons of bugs, it was shutting down people's PC's, wouldn't play on about 1/3 of the most used graphics cards out there, would erase games for no good reason, and so on. Plus is was slow and sluggish on even the best systems. Then they patched it a few times and it was good. And then they patched it a few more times and it was rock solid. That's how all PC games are nowadays. Your best bet with ANY major PC game is to fight the urge to be first on the block to own it, and wait about 2 months before buying it. Then when you do, most of the major problems will be past, and you'll even save money in the process as well. Computer games don't stay at retail long. I GUARANTEE you'll be able to find NWN2 on ebay for $30 in February. That's the route I'm taking. FWIW, your later quote about pool of radiance is very true. Unfortunately, I was suckered in on that one and was EXTREMELY disappointed.
Davidw 11-24-06, 06:09 PM	Actually I bought NWN 1 when it first came out and it ran pretty smoothly on my fairly average computer. I don't remember my exact specs back then but I *think* it was something like 800 Mhz processor, 256 MB of RAM and a 32 MB graphics card. Hardly cutting edge even back then. I never noticed any of the other problems you've mentioned. FWIW, your later quote about pool of radiance is very true. Unfortunately, I was suckered in on that one and was EXTREMELY disappointed. Oh yes, that was one bad game. For all its faults, NWN 2 will never be as bad as that.
wesleytj 11-24-06, 06:30 PM	Actually I bought NWN 1 when it first came out and it ran pretty smoothly on my fairly average computer. I don't remember my exact specs back then but I *think* it was something like 800 Mhz processor, 256 MB of RAM and a 32 MB graphics card. Hardly cutting edge even back then. I never noticed any of the other problems you've mentioned. Trust me, there were plenty. I didn't have it as bad as some others either, but the forums were lit up with people with serious issues right from the outset. The point is that NWN2 will work out it's issues as well. Oh yes, that was one bad game. For all its faults, NWN 2 will never be as bad as that. Yeah, at least we can be fairly certain that NWN2 will actually BE proper D&D rules instead of a slap***** job.
Red_Wizard 11-24-06, 10:37 PM	With nwn2 patched up already, and a system that is minimum or better running it, i have no issues with how it looks or runs. it could look better i'll agree, and IMO this is what NWN 1 should have looked like, with 2 being closer to DND online, or even Dark Messiah, with SWG customization.
Lord Karsus 11-24-06, 11:32 PM	That's how all PC games are nowadays. Your best bet with ANY major PC game is to fight the urge to be first on the block to own it, and wait about 2 months before buying it. Then when you do, most of the major problems will be past, and you'll even save money in the process as well. Computer games don't stay at retail long. I GUARANTEE you'll be able to find NWN2 on ebay for $30 in February. -It's a definite test of will. But, we all have each other, right?
Red_Wizard 11-25-06, 10:41 AM	For me though, it's not about saving the money when it comes to the Realms. It's like owning a piece of them, and to me, spending alittle extra to be the first is ok in my books ;). As for bugs, think of it as taming your new piece of land....sure once all the orc kin are driven off, land prices will change and be easier to manage, but only you can say you went through it and still came out ahead :P
Diffan 11-25-06, 11:44 AM	You know, I didn't think Pool of Radiance: Ruins of Myth Drannor was all THAT bad. I mean, it was the longest dungeon crawl I've ever played and it was extreamly hard. I hated the point buy system, as it was for NWN and probably NWN 2 (Ugh) but I guess I can get over that aspect, and if PoR:RoMD was more real time, it would've been alot better. Aside from that, I saw the trailers for NWN 2 and it did look promising. Though I think i'll wait a few months, perhaps 6 or 7 for the price to go down and for the bugs to get sorted out before I buy the game.
Davidw 11-25-06, 12:32 PM	It wasn't the long dungeons that bothered me in Pool of Radiance (I actually quit playing before reaching my first dungeon), but the huge gameplay flaws. The turn-based aspect was a major pain: one character walks, then a second character walks, then a third character walks, and so on... Combat was the same. You could be standing right next to an enemy yet if you'd used your attack for that round, you had to stand there and wait patiently for 10 seconds or so until you could attack again. Terrible, terrible gameplay design.
Red_Wizard 11-25-06, 06:45 PM	You know, I didn't think Pool of Radiance: Ruins of Myth Drannor was all THAT bad. I mean, it was the longest dungeon crawl I've ever played and it was extreamly hard. I hated the point buy system, as it was for NWN and probably NWN 2 (Ugh) but I guess I can get over that aspect, and if PoR:RoMD was more real time, it would've been alot better. Aside from that, I saw the trailers for NWN 2 and it did look promising. Though I think i'll wait a few months, perhaps 6 or 7 for the price to go down and for the bugs to get sorted out before I buy the game. You don't like point buy?:confused:
Diffan 11-25-06, 08:41 PM	You don't like point buy?:confused: I despise point buy. When I DM, I never use it. It's a waste because not everyone is going to have the same stats and what not. I let my PC's roll 4d6 for their abilities and take away the lowest rolled die. They do that 7 times, rerolling their lowest score. If they don't like their scores after two times, then I'll resort to point buy.
wesleytj 11-26-06, 12:27 AM	i'm not a big fan of point buy either, but the main reason i didn't like pool of radiance was that it claimed to be something it wasn't. it was heralded as the first pc rpg to use the new d&d 3rd ed rules. that was, at the very best, a massive stretch of the truth, if not outright deception. the races were very limited, the classes even more so. i don't remember the details much anymore, i think that's my brain doing itself a favor by shutting down those bad memories, but i remember feeling very very cheated. :weep:
Diffan 11-26-06, 04:22 AM	i'm not a big fan of point buy either, but the main reason i didn't like pool of radiance was that it claimed to be something it wasn't. it was heralded as the first pc rpg to use the new d&d 3rd ed rules. I thought Icewind Dale II was the 1st with 3rd ed. rules. But anyhow, I can see your point with all the class and race restrictions. That's why I liked IWD II over the other BG/IWD games. The 1st NWN wasn't bad, espically when they got all the bugs out of it and I thought the story line was pretty interesting. I'm still gonna wait a while and check out more reviews.
Red_Wizard 11-26-06, 10:35 AM	I despise point buy. When I DM, I never use it. It's a waste because not everyone is going to have the same stats and what not. I let my PC's roll 4d6 for their abilities and take away the lowest rolled die. They do that 7 times, rerolling their lowest score. If they don't like their scores after two times, then I'll resort to point buy. See i don't mind any stat creation method, my only qualm is, it's impossible to make a RP character with 4 rolled dice. Rolling dice is for a powergamer, or someone who wants to make a completely random early epic character. As for not everyone having the same stats, i'm going to right off point out your dead wrong. With a point buy, everyone has identicle ammounts of points going into their stats, and thus completely fair, even stats all around. Also, if you have a character concept, you can make that character exactly the way you invision him, without worry of him having a stat that wouldn't make sence (ie: a wizard with a 18 str). With rolling now, you can have a wizard who is better at everything stealth oriented than your rogue, and on average, you will have one character toting around 94, and another with 71 or less....much more varied than any point buy... The one and only campaign i ran with pointbuy (that was meant to be RP) i Had a fighter and a thief with 3 18's, and 3 that weren't below 13, then i had 2 people with 1 18, and not a single other skill above 14.... I'm not saying your wrong for liking rolling over Point buy, only parts of your reasoning as to why it's better....
Diffan 11-26-06, 11:25 AM	I'm not saying your wrong for liking rolling over Point buy, only parts of your reasoning as to why it's better.... Yea, I can see your point on the point buy system being fair. Everyone gets the same about of points and thus no one is hugely better than the other. But that's the exact same reason as to why I don't use the system, no game is completly fair. I give them two chances to get good stats, if that doesn't happen, then we go to point buy. But another reason I don't like point buy is because it's so hard to have a decent character who's class involves more than one important ability modifier, ie...the paladin, cleric, duskblade,... They all have at least 3 abilities that require (for a good character) to be in the 15+ range. You can't get that with point buy. I'm not exactly sure but you get what, 36 points to start with and all your abilities start at 8. Every time you put a point into an ability it costs 1 until 14? then it's two til 16 then it's three? I dunno, I just think rolling's easier.
Davidw 11-26-06, 11:26 AM	I don't like the point buy system myself, though I imagine it's a power gamer's dream. When I played Icewind Dale II, it had a point buy system and so I used it to make my two fighters and barbarian each have a Str and Con of 20. My wizard had 18 in Int. My rogue had 18 in Dex. Basically, it was unrealistic as hell. A point buy system allows you to make a 1st level character who could quite easily handle someone two or three levels higher.
Diffan 11-26-06, 11:31 AM	Yep! Besides, rolling is fun and adds some diversity among your party. Who says a Wizard can't have a STR of like 16 or 17? Why do all wizards have to be spindly limbed skinny people you could break with a good swift kick??
Red_Wizard 11-26-06, 01:16 PM	I don't like the point buy system myself, though I imagine it's a power gamer's dream. When I played Icewind Dale II, it had a point buy system and so I used it to make my two fighters and barbarian each have a Str and Con of 20. My wizard had 18 in Int. My rogue had 18 in Dex. Basically, it was unrealistic as hell. A point buy system allows you to make a 1st level character who could quite easily handle someone two or three levels higher. That was your path to choose from, not a character based one, so much as a power one. Should you want to create a character of more realistic proportions, then point buy is the way to go. If you choose to jack one stat up to rediculous levels, you lose in other places...which in a game like IWD is fine, but for a PnP campaign, when playing a character with some manner of character, you should spread out your points more interestingly. As for a power gamers dream, it is far from it...maybe one stat is uber, but when the remainder suffer, your gonna die faster, fail more saves, or not be able to carry as much (as an example). On the note of a first level character easily handling a character of two or three levels higher, that is largely false....maybe a fighter gets a few good rolls, but a wizard or a Sorcerer would be dead very quickly...hell, they die quickly even when fighting someone of the same level. Which, in the end is no diff from a rolled game ;) :P Ultimatly your entitled to your own opinion, but i fail to see how you think the point buy system is un-realistic, especially when compared to a rolling method. PB allows only one uber stat (again only should you choose that route), and alot of low ones....Rolling can lead to all uber stats at first level (or alternatly all bad ones). Perhaps if you tried using the 28 PB method, you might notice what i'm getting at when i discuss this :). Yep! Besides, rolling is fun and adds some diversity among your party. Who says a Wizard can't have a STR of like 16 or 17? Why do all wizards have to be spindly limbed skinny people you could break with a good swift kick?? I agree rolling is fun, and an interesting way to make random characters....but rolling is a terrible way to make a character you have in your head already.... Also, i'm not saying a wizard can't have a 17 strength, i made one not to long ago with a high Str, Dex, and Con, with only a 14 intelligence, and a better Chr than his Int. But that was all part of a character concept. I mean if i roll a..... 18, 16, 13, 14, 14, and a 15 (just rolled those as i was writing this :P) What is an interesting Character i can make with that. It is an all round semi-Uber :P I Can't make a dim witted rogue, an unwise sorcerer, a slow fighter......basically nothing with a realistic flaw.....Maybe i'm alone on this, but i like to play a character who is flawed, sometimes even drastically. Personally i'd be happier with a 17, 15, 13, 10, 10, 9....with that i can make all kinds of interesting things......What i'm trying to say is sure i can get both those examples with rolling, but only on a fluke....with PB, i get exactly what i want, and my character is exactly as he is imagined :)
Red_Wizard 11-26-06, 01:18 PM	Yea, I can see your point on the point buy system being fair. Everyone gets the same about of points and thus no one is hugely better than the other. But that's the exact same reason as to why I don't use the system, no game is completly fair. I give them two chances to get good stats, if that doesn't happen, then we go to point buy. But another reason I don't like point buy is because it's so hard to have a decent character who's class involves more than one important ability modifier, ie...the paladin, cleric, duskblade,... They all have at least 3 abilities that require (for a good character) to be in the 15+ range. You can't get that with point buy. I'm not exactly sure but you get what, 36 points to start with and all your abilities start at 8. Every time you put a point into an ability it costs 1 until 14? then it's two til 16 then it's three? I dunno, I just think rolling's easier. There is 26 low, 28 standard, 30 high, 32 high powered...i've always gone with a realistic 28 36 is getting rediculous...
Davidw 11-26-06, 02:10 PM	Ultimatly your entitled to your own opinion, but i fail to see how you think the point buy system is un-realistic, especially when compared to a rolling method. Well, my 1st level fighter in Icewind Dale II had Str 18 and Con 20; so +4 to damage, +4 to attack and +5 hit points. If I wanted to, I could have made an entire party of 1st level fighters with the exact same stats. Now, you roll up a party of 6 1st fighters and pit 'em against mine. If you win more than 1 fight in 10, I'll be surprised.
Diffan 11-26-06, 02:20 PM	There is 26 low, 28 standard, 30 high, 32 high powered...i've always gone with a realistic 28 36 is getting rediculous... Yea, i wasn't sure. I haven't done it in a while. So all your stats start out at 8, then it takes 1 point to raise it to 9, and so on until what 15? then it costs 2 until 17 and then eighteen costs 3? I'm not sure if that's right or not.
Red_Wizard 11-26-06, 02:33 PM	If i roll up a max set of fighters you'd lose everytime, randomness in Character generation is not an RP quality. Also, with the IWD point buy, your using a higher than average point buy system, Use an average system (ie; 28) and you won't get that kind of character. Secondly, if you try to play that fighter, what would they be hmm? A slow, dumb, ugly, moron...sure they can tank it out, but where is the RP value of that? Lastly, point buy won't let you go to 20 (least not as described in the DMG 3.5, or in a program such as E-Tools ;)), it caps at 18, which is the best you can achieve with a roll aswell, and that costs a rediculous ammount of points. Here is a 28 point buy character, human, getting as close to what you described as possible.....18, 10, 16, 8, 8, 8......and that is powergamed compared to a rolled one...18, 13, 18, 14, 12, 16....and thats an average in between roll, middle of 9 i did. If you wanna compare Game stats now, in BG, i can just kept rolling until i got what i want, which is uber....and i'd easily pit my Rolled BG Character in any situation against your PB one from IWD :P Sure it might get an even balance in the fighting area, but then you dont get any ability to talk to people, know anything of game value, make a will save, have usefull skills outside of combat, etc :P All i'm saying is PB character is better for RP value, and Rolling is better for a random, general power oriented character. Again i'll say if you prefer it thats fine, but there is no feasible way that a PB system is superior powerwise to a roll one (unless you wanna get into a over powered point buy, like 32+, and then it starts to compare again to the rolled versions) ....and there is no way a Rolled one can have a character idea generated prior to the rolls ;) (least not an exact visualized version of that character ;):P)
Red_Wizard 11-26-06, 02:36 PM	Yea, i wasn't sure. I haven't done it in a while. So all your stats start out at 8, then it takes 1 point to raise it to 9, and so on until what 15? then it costs 2 until 17 and then eighteen costs 3? I'm not sure if that's right or not. 8-14 = 1 14-15 = 2 15-16 = 2 16-17 = 3 17-18 = 3 and from 28, thats 16 right there also to my original post, i make the modification that it is 15 low powered, 22, then 28, and 32
Davidw 11-26-06, 02:41 PM	If i roll up a max set of fighters you'd lose everytime, randomness in Character generation is not an RP quality. How'd you figure that out? If my party have higher attack, hit points and damage than your party, it stands to reason I'll win more often than not. Also, with the IWD point buy, your using a higher than average point buy system, Use an average system (ie; 28) and you won't get that kind of character. Secondly, if you try to play that fighter, what would they be hmm? A slow, dumb, ugly, moron...sure they can tank it out, but where is the RP value of that? Since when has anyone ever tried to roleplay in a game like Icewind Dale II? Sure, in pen 'n' paper AD&D, it makes sense to roleplay - you could argue it's the whole point of playing - but in a PC game it's kind of pointless. Lastly, point buy won't let you go to 20 (least not as described in the DMG 3.5, or in a program such as E-Tools ;)), it caps at 18, which is the best you can achieve with a roll aswell, and that costs a rediculous ammount of points. In Icewind Dale II, you can play non-human characters. I think dwarves get +2 to constitution (maximum of 20 for a starting character) and orcs get +2 to strength (maximum 20). But even if the cap was 18, I could still give my fighters a strength and constitution of 18 which would give them the edge over any 1st level fighters that were 'rolled'.
Red_Wizard 11-26-06, 02:54 PM	How'd you figure that out? If my party have higher attack, hit points and damage than your party, it stands to reason I'll win more often than not. Cause with a rolled character if i roll 'til i get 18 in everything (using a game basis) i would get 18 in dex, giving me a 4 higher AC (provided we each take no armor, or armor to balance us using only start gold) which means on average you hit me less, and should we both take dwarves ( per your example) then we have the same HP all around, meaning i should and would win out more times than you. Since when has anyone ever tried to roleplay in a game like Icewind Dale II? Sure, in pen 'n' paper AD&D, it makes sense to roleplay - you could argue it's the whole point of playing - but in a PC game it's kind of pointless. Noone, but the point is not that theres no RP in IWD, its that you say PB is more of a Powerhouse stat builder than rolling, and that you don't like it. I Can understand not liking it in a game, only cause the rolling gives you a superior character everytime.....But in PnP, if you want an interesting, RP character, PB is always the way to go. In Icewind Dale II, you can play non-human characters. I think dwarves get +2 to constitution (maximum of 20 for a starting character) and orcs get +2 to strength (maximum 20). But even if the cap was 18, I could still give my fighters a strength and constitution of 18 which would give them the edge over any 1st level fighters that were 'rolled'. I know, but then they also get minuses elsewhere, making them worse...ie: a 6 Chr.....Also, again you can only get 2 18's in PB if you use something higher than 28, which while still not coming super close to rolling, is bringing a character closer to Uber again, at which point you may as well be rolling. Secondly, i can roll all 18's, or i could roll all 3's.....the point is Rolling has a chance of being to uber, or the equivalent of a corpse in ability (the average still leaning more to uber)...both are IMO no good for a Pre envisioned RPable character.
Davidw 11-26-06, 03:00 PM	Cause with a rolled character if i roll 'til i get 18 in everything (using a game basis) i would get 18 in dex, giving me a 4 higher AC (provided we each take no armor, or armor to balance us using only start gold) which means on average you hit me less, and should we both take dwarves ( per your example) then we have the same HP all around, meaning i should and would win out more times than you. Ah, but I'm going by official rules there and you're cheating. :) If you use the rules, you're only allowed to roll the dice a certain amount of times before you choose your characters, right? In that case, unless you're incredibly lucky, you'll never end up with characters as strong as those readily available in a point buy system.
Red_Wizard 11-26-06, 03:02 PM	But we're talking game wise, which is the only feasible situation in which you'd put all your points into only 2 stats ;) edit: also, the example i gave above was an average roll i took from 9 basis rolls.....and compared to one where all points are place into 2 stats, it still beat it, having matched your 2 18's, and then beat all the other 8's you have in other stats
Davidw 11-26-06, 03:05 PM	Exactly. I don't think anyone ever claimed otherwise.
BrianCritchley 11-26-06, 03:10 PM	Exactly. I don't think anyone ever claimed otherwise. honestly, doing that in some games might work, but well, in many games especially the 3E games skills are important to have
wesleytj 11-26-06, 05:35 PM	the way we do it tends to bring out more balanced characters, albeit balanced high... we roll 4 d6 per stat, rerolling all ones, and dropping the lowest. we do that seven times and keep the best 6. that means you see a lot of stats in the 12-15 range, and then one or two a little higher. rarely anything 10 or lower. it's a little higher powered, but i figure adventurers should be above average compared to random peasants, and i certainly make sure they are challenged. nothing wrong with making the characters feel genetically superior. :)
Alurvelve 11-27-06, 02:44 AM	Wesleytj that exactly how I have my pcs make thier characters. I was never I big fan of the point buy system.
Red_Wizard 11-27-06, 11:04 AM	Taking 7 rolls, and doing 7 columns of this, i then took an average of each ability across, which resulted in this. str: 13 dex: 13 con:15 wis:14 int:13 chr:13 bonus:13 Pretty good you say right? nice an low, nothing to complain about there? Heres what can be achieve with a 28 point buy, when trying to compare to those stats. Str: 13 dex:13 con:13 wis:13 int:13 chr:11 Whats sad about that, is out of all i rolled, i did not get a single colum that could be made with point buy, and that was before subtsituting in the bonus 7th roll for a poorer roll of the first 6. My lowest rolled column came up 16,11,16,12,11,12,10....and still, the best i could achieve with a point buy method was 16,11,12,12,11,12. Not super drastic, but that was the lowest of the rolls, and still wiped out PB.. My point through this whole matter is still, with a set character idea, and wanting a rpable character, PB is always the way to go...you get exactly what you want, the character remains real, and you dont have to change a character concept based on good or bad rolls. Though i will also point out, i have nothing against rolling, or those who choose to, i just hate hearing things like "pb is over powered" or "i strongly dislike pb just because its dumb" :P....as long as someone has a good reason for not using it, its fine :)
Davidw 11-27-06, 01:04 PM	Taking 7 rolls, and doing 7 columns of this, i then took an average of each ability across, which resulted in this. str: 13 dex: 13 con:15 wis:14 int:13 chr:13 bonus:13 Pretty good you say right? nice an low, nothing to complain about there? Heres what can be achieve with a 28 point buy, when trying to compare to those stats. Str: 13 dex:13 con:13 wis:13 int:13 chr:11 The second set are poor stats and not the kind of thing anyone would really take. Can you imagine a fighter choosing a strength of 13? Or a mage choosing an intelligence of 13? No, the fighter would have 18 strength and just have low wisdom, intelligence and charisma. The mage would have high intelligence and lose out on strength.
Red_Wizard 11-27-06, 01:37 PM	I know, but that is the closest i can get the PB to the average of all the ones i rolled up...and the rolled still wins out. Also, with point buy, as you add more, it costs you more, so after awhile, rolling really pulls away....Well, basically anything past 14 for stats, and rolling already dominates PB in power.
Davidw 11-27-06, 01:50 PM	The rolled wins out because you're deliberately underplaying the point buy system. With point buy, I could have a group of 6 1st level fighters each with a strength and constitution of 18; with rolled stats, you'd be lucky to have even one character one powerful. Sure, the point buy party would lose out to the rolled party in other areas, but for pure power gaming point buy allows you to hit the highs that rolled doesn't. BTW: thanks for helping me divert this thread away from terrible PC games. :)
wesleytj 11-27-06, 03:02 PM	The rolled wins out because you're deliberately underplaying the point buy system. With point buy, I could have a group of 6 1st level fighters each with a strength and constitution of 18; with rolled stats, you'd be lucky to have even one character one powerful. Sure, as long as they don't mind having a crap statline the rest of the way around. Unlike previous editions of D&D, it's pretty important to have a decent score in ALL your stats for something or another. The only stat a fighter can really ignore, for example is Cha. St is obvious, Dex is important for AC, ranged attacks, and initiative. Con for hit points and Fort Saves. Int for skills. Wis for Will saves, their weakest in progression, making them a BIG target for nasty spells, like Sleep and Hold Person. Charisma is really the only throw-away for fighters. You could make similar arguments for other classes, and some are even tougher still. What the throw-away stat for a paladin? Sure, the point buy party would lose out to the rolled party in other areas, but for pure power gaming point buy allows you to hit the highs that rolled doesn't. Not true. That's the thing with rolled stats...you might get lucky. In the example above, the guy averaged out 7 rolls. There will be more highs and lows. For instance, I rolled up a character last year with 2 17's and an 18. So by level 8, I had a guy with 3 18's. It was a sorceror with 18 cha, dex, and int, and a 16 con to boot. Bottom line is, using my dice rolling method (7 rolls of 4d6, reroll 1's, keep best 3, lost worst) I'll generally get statlines that are not possible with a 28 point buy. You can't 28 point buy 2 16's and 4 14's for instance, that's not overly uncommon in my system. I'll take that over a guy with 2 18's and the rest 8's any day. BTW: thanks for helping me divert this thread away from terrible PC games. :) happy to help...there's only so much you can complain about pool of radiance. :cool:
Davidw 11-27-06, 03:19 PM	I actually meant NWN 2. But yes, it's nice to see the discussion has turned to something else. Not true. That's the thing with rolled stats...you might get lucky. In the example above, the guy averaged out 7 rolls. There will be more highs and lows. For instance, I rolled up a character last year with 2 17's and an 18. So by level 8, I had a guy with 3 18's. It was a sorceror with 18 cha, dex, and int, and a 16 con to boot. With the emphasis on the word "might". With point buy, I could roll up 6 1st level fighters with strength 18 and constitution 18. If you were really lucky you "might" roll up a character as good, but odds on your rolled up characters would be weaker.
Diffan 11-27-06, 03:26 PM	there's only so much you can complain about pool of radiance. :cool: IT WASN'T THAT BAD OF A GAME!! :P I can see all the pros and cons for PB, but if we're strictly going out of the PHB, I say do what the book says and roll. It creates more lively characters IMO. As for rolling, I do it practically the same way wesleytj does it, except that I allow my players to allocate 2 points from any of their stats. I know, even MORE power gaming, but hey, I like throwing heavy Sh*t at them!
Davidw 11-27-06, 03:35 PM	Oh, I dunno. I could complain about Pool of Radiance all day given the chance.
wesleytj 11-27-06, 04:15 PM	With the emphasis on the word "might". With point buy, I could roll up 6 1st level fighters with strength 18 and constitution 18. If you were really lucky you "might" roll up a character as good, but odds on your rolled up characters would be weaker. But again, if you're willing to give them 18ST and 18CON, you've tanked the rest of their stats. That's NOT a good character. You missed the whole point of what I said. Those 6 1st level fighters would be laid low by being extremely easy to hit with a low dex (and therefore AC), and low reflex and will saves.
Davidw 11-27-06, 04:22 PM	Low dexterity. Let's see... On the 28 point buy system, I could have strength and constitution both of 18 by using all 28 points (unless I've worked that out wrong), and have 8 points in all abilities. So my dexterity penalty would actually be 1, therefore meaning my armour class would only be down a single point. That wouldn't make a huge amount of difference in the big scheme of things. The saves I'm not too sure about as I don't tend to follow the rules that closely, but my intelligence, wisdom and charisma would likewise be 8, so therefore I'd only be at a slight disadvantage when it comes to saves. On the other hand, I've got +4 to attack and +4 to damage and +4 hit points. My 1st level fighter has a great attack bonus, great damage and more hit points than any other character of the same level. Pit me against a fighter of the same level who was rolled up fair 'n' square and I bet 90% of the time I'd win.
wesleytj 11-27-06, 04:45 PM	using my system, the average stat is about 14. when you re-roll ones, the average roll on a single d6 is 4, you'd have 4 of those, and lose the lowest of the 4. that's an average of a +2 across the board in all stats, tho of course there will be a little fluctuation. and you roll that 7 times and keep the best 6. so lets say at the end you have 2 16's, 2 14's, and 2 12's. Certainly well within the standard deviation, probably a bit on the low end if anything. having a -1 stat bonus to all your saves, versus a +2 in my case, is a big difference. you'll fail 15% of the time more. you example (lvl 1 fighter vs lvl 1 fighter) is also flawed, because you're just assuming a straight hand-to-hand melee combat. sure, in those circumstances, your min-max guy would problably win. but if you miss your spot and listen checks (likely since they'd suck), and my rogue makes a good hide and move silently check (likely with good skill checks), and I shoot you in the back with my crossbow from close range, getting the sneak attack bonus, then suddenly it's a little different, isn't it? especially with your low ac, you might be dead before you even knew the battle had started. even if that doesn't work, that would have been the surprise round, then the next round the rogue, with the higher dex would likely get initiative first, and you'd still be flat-footed, so there's another attack with sneak attack damage on the charge... that's just one example. what about the mage who casts sleep? better make that will save at -1, if not you'll take a coup de grace. even if it is just a dagger, you're probably dead.
Davidw 11-27-06, 04:51 PM	Ah, but now you're basing the combat on things I never said. Sure, my fighter might be outclassed by a sneaky rogue or a wizard with a sleep spell, but that was never the point I was trying to get across. The point being: that my 1st level fighter on the point buy system would be better than a 1st level fighter on a rolled system. Likewise, my 1st level point buy rogue would kick the ass of your 1st level rolled rogue because I'd have higher dexterity and probably higher strength and constitution as well. My 1st level wizard would outclass your 1st level wizard in almost every respect because he'd be guaranteed an intelligence of 18 whereas yours would be extremely lucky to have an intelligence anything like that. My point buy party would wipe the floor with your rolled party 90% of the time. If you won, it wouldn't be because you had the better party; it'd be down to sheer luck.
Red_Wizard 11-27-06, 04:55 PM	Why are we back to this again??? What good is the character who has two great stats, and nothing else to offer? They are dumber than a commoner, slower than most people of same or lower level, not likely to make any wise choices, and have no physical, or persuasive appeal....If you wanna go back to computer games, i can point out again that all i have to do is keep rolling 'til i get what i want. Now, if i go with the best example of of rolled stats i had earlier, the second lowest set of rolls, was 17, 17, 17, 14, 13, 14.....that will never be possible with a PB system. Now congrats, if you wanna use point buy to make that character, and pit it against this character, maybe in a fight you'd win more, roughly 55%-60% at best, but this character can do everything equally good.....it isn't bad at anything....Hence the term Uber. Rolls make Ubers, PB gets you realistic Role Play focused characters.....sure you can RP an uber, but despite the comic factor, who really would enjoy playing someone like rambo for more than a session or 2....not me. I'm not really sure how else to explain something to you....Just cause you CAN jack up two stats, doesn't mean you should, as it makes for poor RP....and once those two stats are bought and you have nothing left, a rolled character could roll a 18 3 times, and instantly be better than you...heck, with a 10 on 4 rolls, and 2 18's, they have already rolled better than you can get with 28......So how is it over powered???
Davidw 11-27-06, 04:59 PM	It's overpowered because I could create a group of 6 1st level characters with 18 in their prime ability. Could you do the same with your rolled up party? Ignore roleplaying for the moment. That isn't what I'm getting at.
Red_Wizard 11-27-06, 06:04 PM	No, you can get one stat at 16, and one at 18, and have a 10 in something else. With BG, ToTSC, BG2, ToB, IWD, and IWD:HoW yes.....in a rolled game yes i could. Which is the only situation where RP can/should be aside. Next, a wizard with an 18, and maybe an 16 con, gets no dex.....with 16 dex, has no con, and at first level even with an 18 int that only mean you get a +4 you the DC of you spells, and a bonus spell, nothing else of amazing value. So is it your suggestion that a wizard, who can't carry anything, either fails all their Init/ref saves, or loses in fort, and has less (in the case of 8 minuses to) their HP, is a superior character (rp aside) to the a wizard who is (using my second highest rolled stats from earlier set from the start with a) sporting a something like this 17, 17, 17, 14, 13, 14? Lets compare so you have an example to work from. str:8 dex:8 con:16 wis:10 int:18 chr:8 str: 13 dex: 14 con: 17 wis:17 int: 17 chr:14 Which wizard would you rather play ?:P
Davidw 11-27-06, 06:07 PM	Your power gamed character certainly, but if your idea of fun is to constantly reroll stats until you get something you fancy, you go for it.
Red_Wizard 11-27-06, 06:19 PM	I rolled 4 dies, 7 times and dropped the lowest, as per the example above to which i was responding. Then i did seven columns, and took the average in order to get a comparritive result to base a PB character off of. The results were as follows. 16,14,16,14,15,13,15 14,14,15,17,14,14,14 16,14,16,15,12,12,14 16,11,16,12,11,12,10 <-- Note this is the lowest one of the lot. 15,16,18,13,15,15,10 14,14,14,18,15,13,12<- My mistake, i think this one is second lowest on recount. so much worse ;) 9,17,17,14,13,14,17 <--the one i used as the example Not one of those can you make in a PB system, and as you can see, all of them are more powerful in the long term of real pnp rp, that having a PB stat of 18, and one of 16, hardly matters. with the newer 2nd lowest one, you can see an 18, and a 15 (15 being only one away from 16) and all the other stats are well above the 8 that PB let you get :P....so whos character is more powerful ?;)
Davidw 11-27-06, 06:23 PM	Damn. You're good at dice rolling. I bet any board game you play, you come out on top, right? :)
Red_Wizard 11-27-06, 06:26 PM	well, whether or not your being sarcastic, yes....but it won't translate to the casino, i tried several times:banghead:.....it sounds odd, but my mother is good at rolling high to, but again only on board games, so unfortunatly no growin up rich for me :P edit: it also doesn't convert well to the important rolls in DnD either...only goofy rolls, and ones for knowing stuff :P for example, my sorcerer who lifted an iron portcullis when the barbarian halfling, and human paladin failed together:P
Diffan 11-29-06, 08:29 PM	Even with all this arguing, I still fail to see the benifits of using the PB system when rolling is better for your Character. It might be slightly more powerful but that should no way affect the way you role play your character. Just because I have an 18 in Cha doesn't mean that people will love and adore me, hells I could be a complete a**, and role play that accordingly, but still have a high CHA. Point is, rolling is better IMO and I would only use PB if I was running an epic level campaign.
BrianCritchley 11-29-06, 09:39 PM	Even with all this arguing, I still fail to see the benifits of using the PB system when rolling is better for your Character. It might be slightly more powerful but that should no way affect the way you role play your character. Just because I have an 18 in Cha doesn't mean that people will love and adore me, hells I could be a complete a**, and role play that accordingly, but still have a high CHA. Point is, rolling is better IMO and I would only use PB if I was running an epic level campaign. the PB system is a balance thing, keep in mind NWN1 and NWN2 are designed to be multiplayer friendly so they need a system to allow balanced equal characters and to avoid people with -7s in all stats playing with a munchkin who rolled and rerolled till he got pure 18s
Red_Wizard 11-30-06, 12:27 AM	Even with all this arguing, I still fail to see the benifits of using the PB system when rolling is better for your Character. It might be slightly more powerful but that should no way affect the way you role play your character. Just because I have an 18 in Cha doesn't mean that people will love and adore me, hells I could be a complete a**, and role play that accordingly, but still have a high CHA. Point is, rolling is better IMO and I would only use PB if I was running an epic level campaign. You COULD be, but then you would either not be playing your character, or you would be playing Chr as purly a physical appearance stat, at which point should a roll come up that required you to make a believable lie, you wouldn't get the bonus from it. With pb, you put what you want in each stat to make your character, exactly how you invision them, with rolling, your gonna get stats that don't make sence for the character you had in mind, and i guarantee that you won't play your character the way his stats say he should be played. Rolling just doesn't make believable, pre-created characters. It makes ubers, that don't make sence from an RP stand point. Even making up the concept after you see the rolls doesn't make sense, as (unless you like your characters to stand out from everyone else, which i know some do) most, if not all adventurers are just ordinary people who wanted something more exciting out of life....not some prodigy amongst the populous of their originating town. If that were the case, the Realms, and every other world for that matter, would have Nietchian as a base race, and all of the other races would become moot, as none could possibly compete with the prodigious new human evolutionary state.
Davidw 11-30-06, 02:50 AM	the PB system is a balance thing, keep in mind NWN1 and NWN2 are designed to be multiplayer friendly so they need a system to allow balanced equal characters and to avoid people with -7s in all stats playing with a munchkin who rolled and rerolled till he got pure 18s I don't think there is any multiplayer in NWN2.
Ramenth 11-30-06, 03:15 AM	Isnt IWD2 3rd Edition? Edit: NWN2 already has multiple PW's set up.
Gladi 11-30-06, 03:28 AM	Bright day Pn dice-rolling. Maybe you can roll high now, but it is worse when actual rolling a char. I just play a rolled campaign and with 18; 9; 15; 13, 7, 13 my char isn't that super-powered slayer you make him to be. ;)
Davidw 11-30-06, 08:31 AM	You COULD be, but then you would either not be playing your character, or you would be playing Chr as purly a physical appearance stat, at which point should a roll come up that required you to make a believable lie, you wouldn't get the bonus from it. As I said a while back, point buy is a power gamer's dream. And since when have you known a power gamer to give a damn about what's believable and what isn't?
Diffan 11-30-06, 08:48 AM	Even making up the concept after you see the rolls doesn't make sense, as (unless you like your characters to stand out from everyone else, which i know some do) most, if not all adventurers are just ordinary people who wanted something more exciting out of life....not some prodigy amongst the populous of their originating town. This is what the PHB says on page 8 about abilities. "...An adventurer-say, a dwarf fighter or a gnoll ranger-probably has better scores than say a dwarf tax collector or an unexceptional gnoll, at least in the abilities that matter most to that character, and player characters are above average overall. So yea, adventurers are higher than just ordinary people.
Bluenose 11-30-06, 09:30 AM	Bright day Pn dice-rolling. Maybe you can roll high now, but it is worse when actual rolling a char. I just play a rolled campaign and with 18; 9; 15; 13, 7, 13 my char isn't that super-powered slayer you make him to be. ;) Well, your characteristic total is 75. Compared to a point buy character who doesn't pick up any ability over 14 because it isn't cost effective, if they have 28 points they might have 76, or with 32 points they'd have 80. If they want one or more stat to be higher than 14, then they will have less. The extreme example of a character with two 18s (in a 32pt buy) has all their other stats at 8, and a total of 68 - 7 worse than you, with only two stats providing any bonus and four giving a penalty. I get the impression you don't regard your character as particularly powerful, but it would cost 35 points to buy those stats, or 34 if the 7 was treated as -1. In my experience not many DMs let you spend that many points.
Red_Wizard 11-30-06, 11:18 AM	This is what the PHB says on page 8 about abilities. "...An adventurer-say, a dwarf fighter or a gnoll ranger-probably has better scores than say a dwarf tax collector or an unexceptional gnoll, at least in the abilities that matter most to that character, and player characters are above average overall. So yea, adventurers are higher than just ordinary people. Your answer to my statement goes further to proving my point that yours :P. "An adventurer-say, a dwarf fighter or a gnoll ranger-probably has better scores than say a dwarf tax collector or an unexceptional gnoll, at least in the abilities that matter" As you will see in the bold, that is my point. In the ability scores that matter....NOT in the ones that don't make sence, or have no revelance. Yes a Dwarf, or a Gnoll who are mercenaries and swing swords all day long are gonna have a higher Strength, or maybe even a Con than the tax collector, but chances are the Tax Collector is infinatly better with numbers, and possibly even with dealing with those who don't wish to pay their taxes (Int, and Chr) PB makes a believable RP character, where you can say "My Gnoll is really good at lifting heavy loads, and seems to work, and work, and work, and never get sick or tired....but he isn't to sharp when it comes to complex things, and he tends to be alittle tipsey when not paying attention to where he's going". Now when you roll, I can bet you whatever you want that you won't be able to believeably do that Character. Why? Cause you will roll good for all his stats, even if it is atleast a 10 in something, he is around average in it, and thus not bad. Sure, maybe you roll a nice 17 for str, and a 16 for con, but your just as likely to get a 14 for int an/or wis....maybe even something higher in CHR, and by that point you have an uber, not just someone who is good at what they do, someone who is good at what everyone else does aswell. Get it yet?
Alediran 11-30-06, 11:25 AM	It's simple, if the scores that you got in Roll are high in some areas for what you envisioned, you simply lower them, no DM will tell you that you can't.
Red_Wizard 11-30-06, 11:26 AM	As I said a while back, point buy is a power gamer's dream. And since when have you known a power gamer to give a damn about what's believable and what isn't? How is it possible you still think that PB is a power gamers dream? I LOVE pb, and I LOVE RP, and PB is the only way to get a character that makes sence from conception, to play. YES, you can put 18 in one stat. YES you could then have 16 in one other. But after that you have one 10, and 3 8's. Your argument simply doesn't make sence. If you like rolling thats fine, but to honestly think that rolling gives you weaker, more balanced characters, is beyond loony. A PB Character can buy you the same character no matter how many times you make it. You will have to do alot of rolling to try and get you same roll back to back :P. Maybe your problem is your just seeing how close rolling makes your stats, and the great difference PB leaves....but i assure you 15's across the board in a roll, is uber compared to 1 18 :P ;)
Red_Wizard 11-30-06, 11:28 AM	It's simple, if the scores that you got in Roll are high in some areas for what you envisioned, you simply lower them, no DM will tell you that you can't. But once you start lowering you roll, can you then add to a roll you envisioned higher. Probably not, but if you don't like what rolling makes for your character why use it? Ultimatly, if you want a character a certain way, GO WITH POINT BUY...
Alediran 11-30-06, 11:33 AM	If from a story's point of view one stat should go up while another goes down I usually allow one swap of no more than 2 points if the stat to raise is even, 1 if is odd.
Red_Wizard 11-30-06, 12:20 PM	But a wizard who then has say a 12 str, and a 16 int, could make their int 18, and taking a 10 str, while still maintaing all other stats, and ending up with the very thing Davidw thinks is powergamed in PB ;)
Davidw 11-30-06, 12:22 PM	Maybe your problem is your just seeing how close rolling makes your stats, and the great difference PB leaves....but i assure you 15's across the board in a roll, is uber compared to 1 18 :P ;) You think a power game would settle for 15's instead of an 18? Seriously? I'd imagine there are dozens of power gamers running around with 18 strength and 18 constitution and not caring less about the rest of it. A fighter doesn't need high intelligence or charisma unless you're roleplaying him properly - and power gamers don't roleplay.
Red_Wizard 11-30-06, 12:33 PM	You think a power game would settle for 15's instead of an 18? Seriously? I'd imagine there are dozens of power gamers running around with 18 strength and 18 constitution and not caring less about the rest of it. A fighter doesn't need high intelligence or charisma unless you're roleplaying him properly - and power gamers don't roleplay. No they don't, but if its a power game campaign, they may aswell take 18 on all their die, and then just have the dm run a hack and slash camaign where they all start with +5 vorpal swords :P. If your goal is to powergame, Point Buy is still not the way to go. If you are a power gamer in a PB, RP campaign, then it is up to the DM to play to your lack of strengths accordingly, which will lead to one of three things. A new, RP character is created, The Power Gamer leaves the group, Or the powergamer gets killed off, and has to make a new character, perhaps even forming a viscious Power Gaming Cycle. In no sense of the word is PB a power gamers dream. Heres an example of someone i know who is beyond a power gamer. Level 20/10/10 STR: 25 +7 DEX: 28 +9 CON: 26 +8 INT: 24 +7 WIS: 28 +9 CHA: 24 + 7 Thats something he made just because...and one of his weaker characters. If a Powergamer wants to Power game, he doesn't take something pathertic like an 18, and a 16 as his only high stats.
wesleytj 11-30-06, 01:31 PM	Ah, but now you're basing the combat on things I never said. Sure, my fighter might be outclassed by a sneaky rogue or a wizard with a sleep spell, but that was never the point I was trying to get across. The point being: that my 1st level fighter on the point buy system would be better than a 1st level fighter on a rolled system. Sure. A first level fighter you min-maxed will beat a more well rounded one in an empty room with straight gladiator style combat, more often than not, although the likelihood that the one with higher dex winning initiative might make a difference. But that was never the point. You were saying that your 1st lvl fighter with 18st and 18con was a power gamers dream. I just showed examples in which your powergamers dream would be very easily killed by basic players. The point is that your min-max guy has serious flaws that can not be overlooked, unless you only plan on ever facing other lvl1 fighters who do not try anything unusual, and just stand toe to toe with you . That's a pretty strict set of conditions. Like I said previously, a much stronger character is one with a few 16's or so in prime stats, 14's or so in secondary stats, and 12's or so in less important stats. Likewise, my 1st level point buy rogue would kick the ass of your 1st level rolled rogue because I'd have higher dexterity and probably higher strength and constitution as well. My 1st level wizard would outclass your 1st level wizard in almost every respect because he'd be guaranteed an intelligence of 18 whereas yours would be extremely lucky to have an intelligence anything like that. Doubt it. You might have a higher dex, but you probably wouldn't have better st or con. Average stat using the 4d6 system is 14, that's an average of a +2 bonus across the board. And strength doesn't matter much for a rogue anyway, just take weapon finesse. And your unstated assumption that the party would have the rogue go one on one with the rogue, the mage go one on one with the mage, and so on, is silly. What would actually happen is that my mage would put your rogue and fighter to sleep because they'd have crap will saves, and the rest of my party would overwhelm your mage, then casually coup de grace your sleeping beauties. Having 18s in your prime ability is great, but sacrificing the rest of your stats to do it is foolish, "power-gamer" or not. My point buy party would wipe the floor with your rolled party 90% of the time. If you won, it wouldn't be because you had the better party; it'd be down to sheer luck. Again, I highly doubt it, but I'm getting really tired of arguing with you about it. It's obvious you'll ignore 90% of what I say anyway, and that there's no convincing you of even the most remote possibility you could be wrong. Just try it a few times. Roll out 4d6, reroll ones, and take the best 3. Do that 7 times and throw out the worst. How often do you get stuck with a character who doesn't have at least 1 or 2 results of 16 or higher? And how many times are you stuck taking anything less than a 10 anywhere else? Then remember, the difference in most cases between a 16 and an 18 is only +1 on a d20. That's only a 5% difference. Back to your original example, your 18St fighter will hit 5% more often than my 16ST fighter, assuming equal dex, but since mine will be AG14 instead of AG8, I'm 15% harder to hit. Sure, you'll have more hit points, but it's not nearly as cut-and-dry as you claim. And again, I am more likely to make my will save too.
Red_Wizard 11-30-06, 01:37 PM	Glad to see i'm not the only one who sees things from this side.
Davidw 11-30-06, 01:40 PM	If a Powergamer wants to Power game, he doesn't take something pathertic like an 18, and a 16 as his only high stats. He does if he wants to keep to a semblance of the rules.
Davidw 11-30-06, 01:41 PM	But that was never the point. You were saying that your 1st lvl fighter with 18st and 18con was a power gamers dream. I just showed examples in which your powergamers dream would be very easily killed by basic players. The point is that your min-max guy has serious flaws that can not be overlooked, unless you only plan on ever facing other lvl1 fighters who do not try anything unusual, and just stand toe to toe with you . That's a pretty strict set of conditions. That *was* the essence of what I was saying: that a point buy 1st level fighter would be stronger than a rolled 1st level fighter.
wesleytj 11-30-06, 02:20 PM	That *was* the essence of what I was saying: that a point buy 1st level fighter would be stronger than a rolled 1st level fighter. And I gave you examples showing why you were wrong. Your first level fighter MIGHT be better against mine, in strict terms of one on one combat. But if faced with a 1st level mage with a very common sleep spell, you might be in trouble because you have a pretty lousy chance at making your save. But don't let me tell you anything.
Gladi 11-30-06, 03:09 PM	I get the impression you don't regard your character as particularly powerful, but it would cost 35 points to buy those stats, or 34 if the 7 was treated as -1. In my experience not many DMs let you spend that many points. Actually he is strongest character I ever played, and being barbarian (bar/mar) he mows down enemies nicely- but two times already, due to lost will save roll, he went to mow down the party. And we also have paladin with 15 9 13 9 11 15.
Davidw 11-30-06, 03:11 PM	And I gave you examples showing why you were wrong. Your first level fighter MIGHT be better against mine, in strict terms of one on one combat. But if faced with a 1st level mage with a very common sleep spell, you might be in trouble because you have a pretty lousy chance at making your save. But don't let me tell you anything. Er... exactly what are you arguing with me for then? My point was simple: that a point buy 1st level fighter would almost certainly be tougher than a rolled 1st level fighter. You seem to be agreeing with me, and then turn around and complain about it.
wesleytj 11-30-06, 03:36 PM	Er... exactly what are you arguing with me for then? My point was simple: that a point buy 1st level fighter would almost certainly be tougher than a rolled 1st level fighter. You seem to be agreeing with me, and then turn around and complain about it. Because that was NOT your original point. And even THAT point is only true under very strict circumstances, something else you apparently can't see despite every effort by me and others. You know what? Never mind. I'm tired of talking to a brick wall.
Davidw 11-30-06, 03:37 PM	Methinks I touched a nerve there. :)
Red_Wizard 11-30-06, 04:20 PM	The largest issue here is that you think that point buy is a powergamers dream. What you're saying to validate the point, is getting increasingly more and more refined so that the powergamers dream is superior, so long as everything falls into place perfectly to make it so. If you take what you think is a Powergamers dream, and pit it against a true hack and slash power gamers character, it'd all come down to rolls, cause if i wanted to make a character whose sole purpous was to destroy stuff, and nothing else RP oriented, then i'd just take 18 in all my stats and be done with it. But in every normal feasible sitution, that might occur in a real, atleast semi-RP oriented campaign PB will give you a realistic character, and rolling will make a far superior one. With a rolled character, you are almost always garaunteed to come out with pluses to all your stats, and rediculous set up for pre envisioned characters. Maybe your 18 str, 16 con fighter does something special, but he is failing saves, going last for init, not charming or talking to anyone, and not thinking for himself beyond "me like smash...stuff". To me power gamers want to be the best at everything, the focus of all situations attention, and with a PB character you aren't going to get that. When you compare the two methods i just don't see how you think that PB is a power gamers dream. You can only get one possible outcome with PB when something is maximized...Rolling has the potential for something beyond reasonable on every roll made. Then, when you start adding feats to a rolled fighter, they quickly become a tanked charcater, that no PB character could touch.
Bluenose 12-01-06, 08:43 AM	Actually he is strongest character I ever played, and being barbarian (bar/mar) he mows down enemies nicely- but two times already, due to lost will save roll, he went to mow down the party. And we also have paladin with 15 9 13 9 11 15. Well, both your barbarian and the paladin fall within one standard deviation of the average 4d6 drop lowest roll for their total characteristics. The paladin shows the advantages of dice rolling well, because no-one making a point buy character would waste a point to get a characteristic up from 8 to 9. At the same time, a point buy character with 28 points will never have characteristics that are higher than one standard deviation of the average roll, and quite often will be lower than average. I think to some degree point buy shows itself best with simpler character types, that don't need several high stats. So a fighter with 18 Str and 16 Con, with everything else at 8, is probably better in most situations than one who's been rolled with a wider range of abilities. But you can roll high - about 30% of rolled characters will have two stats of 16 or higher - and some character types, paladins among them, don't have many characteristics that they really want to be low. You won't get that sort of character from a point buy system without a DM who's more generous than they really should be.
Red_Wizard 12-01-06, 01:00 PM	lol, so i was talking to a friend of mine who just started playing DnD, and she likes Rolling better (mainly bacause her character can do everything, and shes a newb). But that's besides the point, I just wanted to show you guy's her obviously not uber stats. 17/20 (elf)/13/13/16/10 Clearly i have been wrong all along....wait, no I havn't :P
wesleytj 12-01-06, 01:04 PM	Clearly i have been wrong all along....wait, no I havn't :P Hehehehe glad I'm not the only one.
Yxunomei 12-02-06, 04:27 AM	I haven't played NWN 2 but I've got a question to any who have played it... is the strongholds feature anything like that in Baldur's Gate 2: Shadows of Amn?
Bluenose 12-02-06, 08:28 AM	Not very much. It's the same for everyone, for one thing. I don't want to give out spoilers, but you do get to do quite a bit in and around it.
BrianCritchley 12-02-06, 03:49 PM	I haven't played NWN 2 but I've got a question to any who have played it... is the strongholds feature anything like that in Baldur's Gate 2: Shadows of Amn? it's much MUCH MUCH better
Davidw 12-02-06, 06:36 PM	Ah, but the game sucks by comparison with Baldur's Gate 2. Then again, it sucks by comparison with most games.
Yxunomei 12-02-06, 09:11 PM	Well I am biased to all those Black Isle infinite engine games.
Dead_Mage 02-27-08, 07:56 PM	I've changed my personna but not my realization that D&D Obviously will constantly change.... Seems there are over 127 posts here now... I have gotten into the NWN Diamond edition and like it though it took lots of getting used to no THAC0.....and the realization that a bigger number is better (If it's you).. Got hold of DosBox from my son and am able to play all the old games that were GREAT in their day...EOB 1, 2 and 3 etc.. Ahhhh Whuppin' a beholders a!! or stalks is always rewarding.. Really wish NWN would let you get a "Party" together instead of having to wup the baddies yerself once the helper gets his bod dusted and your familiar is recalled...Damn!!