Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shiftkitty 08-28-07, 03:55 PM	I've haven't read too many D&D novels, so I admit I am only just now finishing the Dark Elf Trilogy. I have WotSQ Book 1, but I got to thinking about how much material has passed between them. If I wanted to get the "big picture" about the drow, which books, and in what sequence* would you guys recommend? Just in case it's important, I'm most interested in Gromph**. *I ask for a sequence so I'm not left wondering about references to previous characters and events. ** I noticed in "Homeland" he's called Gomph. When did he get the 'r' in his name?
bondious 08-28-07, 05:30 PM	I'd read more of the "Drizzt" books (by Salvatore). He often deals with drow, especially in 'The Legacy', 'Starless Night', and 'Siege of Darkness', all three of which are in order, and take place (chronologically) right after the 'Icewind Dale' trilogy. After those, 'The Silent Blade' and the 'Sellswords' trilogy ('Servant of the Shard', 'Promise of the Witch King' and 'Road of the Patriarch') deal with drow, though mostly about Jarlaxle and his band, Bregan D'aerthe (along with Artemis Entreri, of course). Then there are, of course, the 'War of the Spider Queen' books, which I've never read. I'm not sure if they have anything to do with Menzoberranzan, but if you're looking for more "backstory" about the drow then I'd save those for last, since they're more recent. Away from Salvatore, there is 'Daughter of the Drow' by Elaine Cunningham, which came out some time ago, along with a second and third part (creating a trilogy) which came out fairly recently (in the past 5 years, I think). I've not read any of those, either, though I've heard that Gromph and some of the others in the Baenre family have prominant rolls, and you mentioned you like Gromph. (Oh, and I don't know when/why the "r" got put in his name, and actually never even noticed until you pointed it out.) Hope this helps!
Shiftkitty 08-28-07, 10:23 PM	Thanks! This just became my Must Read list! WotSQ is Menzoberranyr in scope. I started reading Book 1 when I got the opportunity to pick up the entire Dark Elf trilogy for (get this) 6 cents. I'm almost done with it and have enjoyed it immensely. There's a site called "Lavender Eyes" taht has a lot of fanfic, and they've got some good writers there, but since most of it assumes you're familiar with the characters, I get kind of lost. Thanks again. I think I can get these used for dirt cheap!
Zanan 08-29-07, 04:41 AM	Heya! Here's my list of the FR drow novels ... All of R.A. Salvatore's Drizzt novels, though Homeland and Siege of Darkness give the best impression about the non-surface drow Elaine Cunningham's Liriel Baenre series Daughter of the Drow (details Menzoberranzyr Drow quite well) Tangled Webs Windwalker An anthology Realms of the Underdark War of the Spider Queen - essentially a must-read Dissolution Insurrection Condemnation Extinction Annihilation Resurrection Lady Penitent Sacrifice of the Widow (excellent stuff for all interested in Eilistraeens) Storm of the Dead (out this week) Single drow on the loose ... Lost Library of Cormanthor Baldur's Gate II - Shadows of Amn (a bit about Ust Natha)
Rizogue 08-29-07, 10:03 PM	I am the Administrator of www.Menzoberranzan.net. We are currently undergoing some major reconstruction after being down for quite some time. This is the first week at the new forums, so expect the pace to pick back up in the very near future. During our prime, we were the spot for drow roleplaying information, and hope to soon be that way again. Sorry for the plug, but I figured I would point you one more place you might find useful in your endeavors into the dark City of Spiders. Rizogue
OKCPayne 08-29-07, 11:11 PM	<snip> Ust, usstan elgg dos ... Don't ask me how, it's a long story... But I know what that means without even having to look it up. It's almost like a second language to me. Bel'la Dos :cool:
killermulch 08-30-07, 12:24 AM	i've just finished WotSQ, and enjoyed them as a whole. i had a bias against reading about so much drow, but the back stabbing and strange rationlization of the characters works. a good cementing of what the drow essence is all about.
_Jarlaxle_ 08-30-07, 06:30 AM	If you like Gromph you should continue the War of the Spider Queen. Exspecially in the Ende there is a lot about him.
Wellin_Adipocere 09-06-07, 01:27 AM	I'm sure you will read on about Drizzt of course because his story goes way beyond the underdark. Not to ruin any of the books that chronologically follow the Dark elf trilogy but you must admit you can't stay on the surface forever.
DarkSongKnight 09-06-07, 04:14 AM	I'll mention that Elaine Cunningham's Starlight and Shadows series is about Gromph's daughter, Liriel Baenre. This is a great series, and may actually be my favorite. Also, The Lady Penitent series is a must read, partly because of it's look into Eilistraeen culture, but more importantly, because it is going to shape the drow of the future. I've read only three of the books from WotSQ, but haven't seemed to of missed out on much.
Shiftkitty 09-06-07, 03:33 PM	Oh, I will read more about Drizzt. I like the guy. But I like the drow in general as well, and Gromph in particular. I'm sure I'll find no shortage of Jarlaxle material, as well!
bondious 09-06-07, 03:48 PM	Oh, I will read more about Drizzt. I like the guy. But I like the drow in general as well, and Gromph in particular. I'm sure I'll find no shortage of Jarlaxle material, as well! Oh man, Jarlaxle's cool! His story is a long and confounded one, much like reading Wolverine stories, where his past is continuously shrouded in mystery, and you only get little bits at a time, and the answers you DO GET only bring up MORE QUESTIONS. It's real fun, and in 'Road of the Patriarch' you get quite a few answers, FINALLY, about Jarlaxle...but not ALL of 'em! ;)
Shiftkitty 09-06-07, 03:58 PM	Well, from what I do know about him, he doesn't seem like the kind to spill his guts out in "90's Sensitive Guy" style! Somewhat OT: Have you been to www.deviantart.com ? Someone did a picture of him and thought to hang the Lord of the Rings' "One Ring" around his neck. I though, "Yeah, if anybody was gonna end up with that thing, it'd be Jarlaxle!" This link may get you there. http://pointy-eared-fiend.deviantart.com/art/Jarlaxle-32487300
bondious 09-06-07, 05:10 PM	Well, from what I do know about him, he doesn't seem like the kind to spill his guts out in "90's Sensitive Guy" style! Somewhat OT: Have you been to www.deviantart.com ? Someone did a picture of him and thought to hang the Lord of the Rings' "One Ring" around his neck. I though, "Yeah, if anybody was gonna end up with that thing, it'd be Jarlaxle!" This link may get you there. http://pointy-eared-fiend.deviantart.com/art/Jarlaxle-32487300 I've been there once or twice, but hardly frequent it. My fiancee is an art major, and has an account, of which there is a link to in my signiature. And, as a matter of fact, she's shown me that same picture of Jarlaxle. Her and I both thought it was pretty good. As for the link I have, I think it takes you to a picture she did of Jarlaxle as well. (I'm figuring that this is the reason why you've posted a link to another Jarlaxle pic) Her pencil drawings are pretty good, in my opinion, but at the time this one was done her coloring wasn't so good, and she was just learning how to use Photoshop and Corel Painter. They've gotten better, though she still has a way to go. Still, I thought it was pretty cool for a first attempt.
Uulbaan 09-10-07, 09:41 AM	If you have the chance, check out also for the D&D RPG book «Drow of the Underdark». This is the book that hook me on drow and lead me there after to read the War of the Spider Queen serie (I just finished the third book). The FR rpg book are also interesting, but the information about drow culture is more specific and spread over many references. If you really enjoy the setting, culture and twisted way that characterize the drow culture and individual, you should also look for the books about Malus Darkblade in the Warhammer Fantasy setting (The first one of a long serie is called «The Daemon's curse». If you are interested, I can give you the other titles of the serie). You will certainly enjoy them as well since the Darl Elves of Warhammer present certain similiarities with the drow culture and way to do thing. Both serie evolve around evil main characters perspective and background. I think, however, that the warhammer one bring you much more further into the evil psyche of his characters and setting and it developpe this aspect more vividly and dig it more deeply than in the FR one (I think the FR serie is softer not because the drow are less evil than those in warhammer, but because it want and care more about reaching a wilder and younger public. Still, I find interesting to read and compared both setting and culture since they are drawn from the same basic archetype. I like also to take the drow as they are depicted. I find them much more "human" than the dark elves of warhammer. While those from warhammer are evil to the bone, the drow appear to me more like neutral people dragged into evil behavior and way of thinking because of the influence and importance Lolth have over their culture.).
Zanan 09-10-07, 10:05 AM	If you have the chance, check out also for the D&D RPG book «Drow of the Underdark». This is the book that hook me on drow and lead me there after to read the War of the Spider Queen serie (I just finished the third book). Please tell me that you actually refer to The Drow of the Underdark by Ed Greenwood?!
Shiftkitty 09-10-07, 10:36 AM	Is there a difference? I'm guessing it's the one with the female drow with the hand crossbow glaring at the viewer. If there's another, I'd be interested in seeing that one as well. DotU was the first sourcebook that I sat down and read cover to cover as opposed to scanning for the parts I was primarily interested in. I love the drow, sympathizing the most with the poor males. Growing up female in a very traditionally gender-oriented family, I know their frustration. My scores throughout my academic life were either among the highest or off the scale altogether, but it all amounted to nothing because after high school I was expected to get married and have kids. Further education was actively discouraged because it was the men who were the movers and shakers of the world. Women were supposed to sit down and marvel at their manly manliness. :rolleyes: At least there was no abuse, but the pressure to remain passive and submissive went so against my grain that it sticks in my craw to this day. I could go on, but an RPG forum is hardly the place to make a therapist's couch, eh? Suffice to say that at 40, I find myself wondering what could have been had I been born male*. (That's where I identify most with Gromph. In a lot of fanfic that I've read, he stews over what he could have become had been born female.) Anyway, I'm very interested in the WH books. I always like the dark elves of the wargame, and my brother would just get blown away by the blitzkrieg tactics I'd use. I'd like to see how close I got to their fighting style. *The drawback would be that I never would have gotten married to the wonderful guy I found. It may have been petty and mean, but I intentionally held off getting married until 35, after my parents had both died. The last thing I wanted was for them to keep nagging me about grandkids. They had plenty from my older sibs, anyway.
Uulbaan 09-10-07, 01:42 PM	Please tell me that you actually refer to The Drow of the Underdark by Ed Greenwood?! Actually, I really refer to the new source book made by Ari Marmell, Anthony Pryor, Robert J. Schwalb, and Greg a. Vaughn :D I know it have recieved many critics (especialy from the FR fans). Nevertheless, I consider this source book as a very good one and one pleasant and interesting to read as Shiftkitty have also add. I could argue to defend the book and explain why I liked it, but I won't go much further on this unless the conversion shift on this topic for a moment. I know DotU doesn't cover every aspects of the drow society since it focus only on the drows under the influence of Lolth. Since I am now currently reading the novels of FR about the drow to dive more deeply into this fantasy world, I cannot depicte the drow with all the details a hardcore FR fan could achived. However, I think the focus on Lolth as the major influence on drow's society present the advantage of making this race more distinctive in regard of the other races and patterns they could hold to characterize their culture and worship. Also, as far as my reading goes, the focus on Lolth influence in DotU doesn't seem to goes against the FR background, since in the serie WotSQ Lolth's cult hold effectively a very strong influence and importance on drow's society. However, I find the drow's portrait in DotU to be much more evil than what I can read in the serie of WotSQ. In this regard, I can understand those who have claim that drows are not as insane and single-minded toward evil as depicted in DotU. Still, it should not be very confortable to stand beside them. Especially for a human rised in a society where words such as trust and friendship mean really something. From what I understand with the reading of WotSQ is that drow are not totally alien to those feeling, but in regard of Lolth dogma and world conception over their mind, they are constantly pushed away from those sentiment. Given this, cults such as Eilistraee and character such as Dritzz get into the picture nicely and in a fashion more interesting than what I thought of them before reading WotSQ. If you like already the WH's Dark Evles from the battle version, you will then enjoy pretty much the serie about Malus Darkblade. For the record let me write the titles of the serie in order since I find their number not clearly indicated: 1- The Daemon's Curse 2- Bloodstorm 3- Reaper of Souls 4- Warpsword 5- Lord of Ruin Like the FR books, they don't hold the LotR writing qualities, but it is still an enjoyable reading. I think those from WH are a bit more original, because they are not hold to make reference at the way the background and character are play in the RPG format. These "wink" toward the rpg and their players have it pro and con I think, but at the end I think it doesn't serve the creation of original stories since it have for effect to format the narration into convention used mostly to produce exclamations such as "Aah! He is a rogue!" or such as "He is using the spell Diamondsteel !". A bit more and they write the page and the source book reference. Anyway, this is minor and we read those books a little bit for that too I guess. I find also WH books to be more explicit and violent. I didn't read much D&D novels though, but WH is notorious for these qualities. In the case if the Malus Darkblade serie, I think these qualities serves the book well because the author use the twisted and violent aspect of the Dark Elves society to ground firmly his story background and to achieve to tell a tale from an Anti-hero stand point. If the story was slightly evil and violent, the reader wouldn't be drag so well into this universe and it wouldn't give a right feeling about Malus Darkblade personality and the WH's Dark Elves society. Since the author have the liberty to dig freelly into this aspect, he better succeed to create a world and characters truly abominable and wicked. In WotSQ, however, there is one character, so far, who succeed, in my view, to reach almost the fear and repulsion you can find toward the WH Dark Elves. This character is Jaggred. Jaggred violence and whickedness sound more part of his nature and less acted than one you can find in Quenthel for exemple.
Zanan 09-10-07, 01:47 PM	@ Uulbaan and Shiftkitty ... before I go on, I#d really advice you to get the book of Ed Greenwood, i.e. one that is concerned with FR drow, not some Core MM beasts ...
Uulbaan 09-10-07, 02:39 PM	I will try to get a hand on it for sure. The whole chapter 1 in DotU was very well made and immersive I think. I liked the other options the book offer. But if we consider the chapter one was like a tale to make you believe that Santa Claus and his village could existe, I think the author succeed well to make the fantasy presented in the book as much plausible and original as possible given the space they had to do so. Because I like to compare and to try to differentiate the Drow with the WH Dark Elves since both are drawn from the same archetype, I can think we can say that a Drow who leave the cult of Lolth and switch for a good deity will remain a Drow. His nature so to speak, what make him different and distinct will remain in place (Basicly the Drow template). In the case of the WH Dark Elves, if one switch his allegence for a good one, he cease to be a Dark Elf (Druchii). So at the core of what make a WH Dark Elves one of this kind is his evilness or, in other words, his worship in Khaine. In the case of Drows, Lolth is not as fundamental (Despite her status and what she claim concerning her reign over this race). In this sens, Eilistraee argument is right as far as I know. If they leave behind the cult of Lolth, they won't loose them self totaly. They will only loose a way of living and thinking which is not completely what make a Drow weaker or stronger and different toward the other races. There is a pretty good article about what make Fantasy literature a specific kind of literature. It start with a comparison between the Sc-fi sub kind called Cyberpunk with the Fantasy kind in general. Through the articale developpement, the author succeed to pin point some interesting characteristics I think. This is the link where you can read the article: http://iopha.livejournal.com/177653.html Enjoy
Shiftkitty 09-10-07, 03:53 PM	@ Uulbaan and Shiftkitty ... before I go on, I#d really advice you to get the book of Ed Greenwood, i.e. one that is concerned with FR drow, not some Core MM beasts ... I have the 2e book about the drow. I don't recall the author. Is that the one you're referring to? That one arrived in the mail the same day I got the 3e version, so I mixed a little of both, then added some spice with the Arcane Age supplements to mix up motivation beyond a simple jihad for Lloth's sake against the surface elves.
Rizogue 09-11-07, 08:48 AM	As a Realms-based Drow Web Site Admin, I have taken that new guide to be 100% Greyhawk Canon. (You know, the place where Orcus and Lolth were both defeated by mortals... :rolleyes: ) And to think that they were about to drop the Greyhawk setting for 4th Edition just months from its release makes me crazy. I am just hoping that The Realms receives the 4E Core Book attention that Greyhawk got this time around, with Deities, regions, etc. The old second edition Forgotten Realms Drow of the Underdark was great (with a crowned Drizzt on the cover). That book, the Menzoberranzan Box Set, and 3E Underdark guide are considered the Bibles of our FR Project. The War of the Spider Queen series, and Homeland are must-reads for anyone wanting to understand an evil based drow society.
Uulbaan 09-11-07, 09:00 AM	Ok, thanks for the info Rizogue. I will go to check your web site as well :) I prefer as well the FR setting over Greyhawk.
Shiftkitty 09-11-07, 10:19 AM	I've combined both settings, but my players have a clear preference for the FR flavor, so that's the dominant atmosphere for my game.
Uulbaan 09-11-07, 10:48 AM	In our case, we use the Warhammer Fantasy background with the rules and material of D&D 3.5 :D
Shiftkitty 09-11-07, 03:15 PM	Nice little combo. My players prefer the 3x edition because they believe it has a grittier feel. Comparing the atmospheres of the two, I'd have to say I agree. We still use older material, but for the down-n-dirty feel, we play in 3e.