Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arctic Knight 01-21-04, 09:17 PM	we are losing our Message board? arrghhhh An Edit Added By BigSis To Make This Thread Easier To Follow The orginal announcement reads as follows ~ The Book Publishing Department of Wizards of the Coast has decided that as of January 23, 2004, the company will no longer provide message boards for novels on our web site. The message boards relating to roleplaying games and other Wizards of the Coast products will continue to be supported. There are many other sites that provide forums in which fans can offer their opinions of our products. We encourage you to take advantage of them. To facilitate this, during the next few weeks we will be providing links to author sites with and without message boards. If you have questions about this policy, please direct them to the Wizards of the Coast Customer Service Department at custserv@wizards.com.
Kuje31 01-21-04, 09:38 PM	Originally posted by Arctic Knight we are losing our Message board? arrghhhh Ah! That's crap :( BAH. BAH I say!
cwslyclgh 01-21-04, 09:55 PM	That bites big time... BAD WotC... BAD... :::shakes rolled up newspaper::: :mad:
Dargoth 01-21-04, 10:24 PM	grrrr *Im sorely tempted to send WOTC Customer service a nasty email*
Darkmistress 01-21-04, 11:51 PM	Sigh. Oh, well. I guess I'll hop off to somewhere where you can actually post remotely negative things and not get your threads locked.
Another Gnome 01-21-04, 11:54 PM	You just had to get that said, eh, Darkmistress? :D
Darkmistress 01-22-04, 12:00 AM	Originally posted by Another Gnome You just had to get that said, eh, Darkmistress? :D But of course. It's kind of like getting fired by your boss (whom you've hated for a long time), so you use this one last chance to call him names to his face and/or punch him in the nose. :smirk:
Shemeska the Marauder 01-22-04, 01:09 AM	Already sent customer service a polite, direct message expressing my disappointment and concern that whatever the reasons for this decision, someone needs to have their head examined because this is likely to negatively impact their novel sales. I can name at least 5 novels that I would not have gotten if not for the positive reviews on this forum. I'm not going to go out of my way to visit a dozen different author's messageboards to get book reviews to decide what to spend my cash on. *sigh*
Simon Says 01-22-04, 03:30 AM	Why is it I can't find this announcement!? Link please! EDIT: Found it! AAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!!! What, did Darkmistress tick off R.A. Salvatore???
Darkmistress 01-22-04, 04:13 AM	Originally posted by Simon Says What, did Darkmistress tick off R.A. Salvatore??? Uh-huh. Sure.
Seismo 01-22-04, 04:26 AM	Goodbye Novels forum. There were some good times.
Darkmistress 01-22-04, 04:41 AM	Hmm. Anyone frequents the Candlekeep forum? I took a look there and lurked briefly (read briefly: all of five minutes scanning through the pages). It's less active than here, though, naturally... *fills migration forms and hums*
Another Gnome 01-22-04, 07:24 AM	What the... damn, I didn't first even notice the board will be gone (or is it just closed?) tomorrow already... Oh well. The novel boards haven't been my primary concern here anyway, so I'm mostly indifferent about the situation. When it comes to novel issues, methinks I'll start frequenting at RAS's.
Elf_NFB 01-22-04, 07:31 AM	This just sucks
Grimbones 01-22-04, 07:53 AM	Originally posted by Another Gnome You just had to get that said, eh, Darkmistress? :D Heh. The Forums without Darkmistress would be like a random encounter table without orcs. Love her or hate her, she's a part of the experience. Seriously, I was hoping Dark would post a final 10 page manifesto. You know she's been holding back. I'd love to read what that woman really thinks.
Crust 01-22-04, 07:59 AM	So what does this mean? If someone posts a thread about a novel in the FR General section, Big Sister will scold us and close the thread?
Freakboy 01-22-04, 08:07 AM	This is a sad day indeed!!! Why would wizards shut us down. I guess its a financial decision. They figure there are other forumns to discuss novels and not so many for the power gamers to talk about their 87th level characters in. Really frustrating. I love this message board best of all the ones I frequent with any regularity. Will miss it.
Webster 01-22-04, 09:27 AM	When you send letters, be sure to keep it polite. Run it through a spelling checker. If they get enough mail, they may change their minds. (No promises, but it's worth a shot.)
BlackAce1000 01-22-04, 09:58 AM	:confused: :uh-huh: *Sulks* *Goes off to the RA Salvatore Forums.*
Feiht 01-22-04, 11:07 AM	Maybe O-Love over at http://www.o-love.net/realms/index.html can start a forum since we all link to that webpage anyway for a good source for novel info :D
WizO_BigSister 01-22-04, 11:11 AM	I am going to move this thread across to the General forum so it is not lost when the Novels forums are closed. I am happy for discussion to continue, but please … no swear words and no attacks blaming individuals for this. Also please bear in mind this decision was not made by the moderators of Wizards forums but we do have to enforce the decision. Although it is not normally allowed to advertise other forums here (this usually belongs in the Ads forums) for now you can post links to alternate sites for discussing the novels. Originally posted by Crust So what does this mean? If someone posts a thread about a novel in the FR General section, Big Sister will scold us and close the thread? No. BigSister will politely remind you of the new rules; then close the thread. * It will be allowed to make references to novels when it is appropriate to the topic being discussed (e.g. If you are discussing “The Origens of the Moonblades” of course you will be able to mention “Evermeet: Island of the Elves.” As another example when discussing the nature of Cormyr as a campaign setting of course you can refer to the Sembia novels.) * It will also be allowed discussion of the iconic characters who appear both in novels and supplements. *It will not be permissible to post literary criticism of any novels in any thread. * It will not be permissible to post a thread started specifically to discuss a novel.
Herr Doktor 01-22-04, 11:25 AM	Originally posted by WizO_BigSister *It will not be permissible to post literary criticism of any novels in any thread. * It will not be permissible to post a thread started specifically to discuss a novel. How about asking for novel sources on in game material? That's all I ever really used the Novel forum for.
WizO_BigSister 01-22-04, 11:37 AM	It would be fine to start a thread about an in-game topic, and ask for info on it from all sources including novels. Make it clear in your title and post what the topic actually is, rather than using the name of the book or series. As an example:- if your party wanted to visit one of the towns in Icewind Dale it would be fine to ask for information given in the various novels about the buildings, the way the inhabitants talk to strangers etc. What you have to make clear is that the thread is to discuss the towns, not the various books. If someone posts a long criticism about how and why the books may differ from other sources, or the merits of the writing style then the thread will be closed.
Crust 01-22-04, 12:06 PM	Originally posted by WizO_BigSister *It will not be permissible to post literary criticism of any novels in any thread. * It will not be permissible to post a thread started specifically to discuss a novel. What a load of horse poo! Why has Wizards denied us the right to post about the novels on this board? There isn't even an explanation as to why it was done! Were the authors whining too much? "Crust keeps saying that my characters aren't good enough! Make him stop!" :bigeyes: I can't think of a reasonable reason as to why this was done. There's a link on the main page that says "Books," and Wizards is canning the novels forum. They're a publishing company! Publishing=books. I can't be the only one whose brain hurts trying to figure this one out. And the fact that we can't give critiques concerning the novels is something I'd expect in Cold War Russia, or Baghdad, not in America. This really leaves a bad taste in my mouth, like the feeling I get when I see Nazis celebrating a book burning. And of course, the whole "free speech" argument gets stuffed back down our throats with that good-old "CoC" get out of jail free card, which is also a load of bull. The fact that we aren't given an explanation in the same announcement shows a real lack of professionalism. Why am I even saying this? Knowing the way things have been handled lately, this post will be promptly deleted, and I'll mysteriously vanish with no trace. This is an insult to the intelligence of millions of people who buy FR novels, and the hundreds of people who post about them here. But what would anyone else care except the posters?
Wooly Rupert 01-22-04, 12:23 PM	Well, I personally am not affected by this. I check two forums, this one and the deities one. But I do have to wonder about the decision to close off a source of free advertising... I can't say that I've read any FR novels because someone told me they were good, but there have been a lot of other books I've read because I'd heard they were good. Thinks I that disallowing this kind of talk can only hurt them in the long run.
Myztek 01-22-04, 12:38 PM	[deleted - someone already made my point]
J. Grenemyer 01-22-04, 01:02 PM	Hello Everyone, I read Mel's message and decided to skip the email part by calling customer service instead. Their response went something like this: We have nothing to do with the message boards and have no idea why the Books Department would do something like that. I can only hope that Mel's advice to send an email means that such emails will be routed to someone within the company that actuall does have something to do with making such decisions. As to the "Why" of it: Is it possible that the Novel Boards have been determined by Wizards to have a significantly negative impact on (1) Novel Sales, or (2) are considered a "distraction" for authors with deadlines? Lastly, it's really going to be sad to not have a Forum on the WotC boards where the authors and fans can interact. I wonder how Paradox feels about this? :(
Crust 01-22-04, 01:21 PM	Originally posted by J. Grenemyer I read Mel's message and decided to skip the email part by calling customer service instead. Their response went something like this: We have nothing to do with the message boards and have no idea why the Books Department would do something like that. I can only hope that Mel's advice to send an email means that such emails will be routed to someone within the company that actuall does have something to do with making such decisions. That doesn't surprise me at all. :rolleyes:
J. Grenemyer 01-22-04, 01:28 PM	Hi Crust, Originally posted by Crust That doesn't surprise me at all. :rolleyes: Don't give up hope yet! I emailed Melanie (WotC Mel) directy, and am hoping for a reply later today. :D
Crust 01-22-04, 01:35 PM	I received my reply, and it read... "The Book Department of Wizards of the Coast has decided to shut down the novels message boards for business reasons. There are lots of other sites on the web that support message boards devoted to novels in Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Magic: The Gathering, and other worlds. Over the next couple of weeks we'll be posting links to author sites, including some that support message boards. We appreciate your input on this matter." Buisness reasons. Wow, that explains everything. Is anyone paying to use the novels forum? Are sales slipping in that area? No. And am I supposed to believe that the people who post here and read these messages male up a large percentage of the WotC consumer? Highly unlikely. We're being redirected to author sites? What? Is this supposed to be some attempt to discipline us in some way? Suddenly the maturity level of the management of these boards has dropped considerably.
Signal9 01-22-04, 01:39 PM	ah crap, i enjoyed reading the forums here... Anyone have any other good FR novel forums?
RoaP 01-22-04, 01:56 PM	Sheesh. Talk about capricious decisions. I guess the hundreds of posts per week this board got was not a good enough reason to keep it going? Bizarre. Oh well, hopefully I'll see you all around somewhere. A very fond farewell, especially to all you MOP-er wannabe's and the MOP-er real deal, Kameron.
Faraer 01-22-04, 01:56 PM	The best place to discuss all aspects of the Realms is the Forgotten Realms Mailing List (http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?SUBED1=realms-l&A=1), of course. It has much higher signal-to-noise than the wizards.com boards, which is typical for email lists over web boards (digest-only lists have the best ratio). The candlekeep.com forums, as well.
J. Grenemyer 01-22-04, 02:00 PM	Howdy All, Perhaps all the novel authors banded together and told WotC to close the boards for all the crap being hurled at them. Also, I wonder if Rich Baker has been "advised" not to talk about Novels when he visits the message boards. After all, WizO BiSis put a relatively tight leash on all future novel discussion. Mind these are just the wild theories of a buy who has yet to discover any solid facts about the situation. :confused: I still haven't got a reply from Melanie. Hopefully she will be able to give some concrete reasons. :) [EDIT: I just saw that RAS and Thomas M. Reid are lurking on these boards. I wonder if they will have anything to add?]
WizO_BigSister 01-22-04, 03:20 PM	Can I please remind you of a couple of points. Don't make personal insults or remarks about anyone. You are allowed to disagree with what somebody has done. You are not allowed to attack their character, or make insulting remarks about why you think this particular person has done it. If I have to take action on posts like this it is not because I am censoring posts that disagree with the decision ... it is because I will be applying the same rules of conduct to this discussion as to any other posts. Please remember * "Please bear in mind this decision was not made by the moderators of Wizards forums but we do have to enforce the decision." * Mel is part of the moderator team * "If you have questions about this policy, please direct them to the Wizards of the Coast Customer Service Department at custserv@wizards.com."
ElaineCunningham 01-22-04, 03:30 PM	Originally posted by J. Grenemyer Is it possible that the Novel Boards have been determined by Wizards to have a significantly negative impact on (1) Novel Sales, or (2) are considered a "distraction" for authors with deadlines? I don't know whether or not this board has any discernible impact on novels sales, one way or another, but I sincerely doubt that WotC is worried about the potential distraction it presents to writers. When the schedule gets tight, writers spend less time on interaction and more time on writing. If a writer is determined to be distracted, there are plenty of other venues. Disapointment is understandable, but hurling insults, innuendo, and hyperbole accomplishes nothing. Consider this: publisher-supported forums for novel critiques and reader/author interaction is not a "Right." In fact, it's very uncommon. Look around -- most publishers do not support online forums such as this one. Most message boards are found on fan-supported sites or author websites, NOT on publishers' websites. In short, what WotC is doing puts them in line with most other book publishers, not with despotic, book-burning regimes. I've been off the boards for a while due to writing deadlines, but stopped by today because FR writers received a form letter advising us that the board would be shut down. It has been a long run, and I've appreciated the fun, the sharing of Realms-lore, the many great moments.
B4Real 01-22-04, 03:34 PM	Originally posted by ElaineCunningham I don't know whether or not this board has any discernible impact on novels sales, one way or another, but I sincerely doubt that WotC is worried about the potential distraction it presents to writers. When the schedule gets tight, writers spend less time on interaction and more time on writing. If a writer is determined to be distracted, there are plenty of other venues. Disapointment is understandable, but hurling insults, innuendo, and byperbole accomplishes nothing. Consider this: publisher-supported forums for novel critiques and reader/author interaction is not a "Right." In fact, it's very uncommon. Look around -- most publishers do not support online forums such as this one. Most message boards are found on fan-supported sites or author websites, NOT on publishers' websites. In short, what WotC is doing puts them in line with most other book publishers, not with despotic, book-burning regimes. I've been off the boards for a while due to writing deadlines, but stopped by today because FR writers received a form letter advising us that the board would be shut down. It has been a long run, and I've appreciated the fun, the sharing of Realms-lore, the many great moments. Elaine, I just wanted to let you know I am a big fan of your ELF SONG book. From the in depth detail you have in the book it seems you must be really into music ? Do you play an instrument ? ~B4Real
ascendance 01-22-04, 04:02 PM	Originally posted by ElaineCunningham Consider this: publisher-supported forums for novel critiques and reader/author interaction is not a "Right." In fact, it's very uncommon. Look around -- most publishers do not support online forums such as this one. Most message boards are found on fan-supported sites or author websites, NOT on publishers' websites. In short, what WotC is doing puts them in line with most other book publishers, not with despotic, book-burning regimes. I don't know about any other publishers, but I do know that Baen has some pretty comprehensive webboards for discussing the works of their authors. However, their forums weren't exactly general. Rather, they had individual boards to discuss the works of specific authors. I think part of the problem with the forums here is that it was probably too large and too all-encompassing. There's no sense of community, and hence, people don't feel like there's any need for respect towards authors. At the same time, because of the way RPG book publishing works, you can't break things down via authors.
Signal9 01-22-04, 05:40 PM	Hopefully they reconsider, but it doesnt look like they will.
Voronica Whitney-Robinson 01-22-04, 06:50 PM	Along with Elaine, I have to say I will miss the opportunity of dropping by and exchanging a few words with the people on this site who love the Realms. Thanks to all of you who took the time to comment, both the positive and the negative, on anything I was associated with. I learned a lot here. Take care to everyone.
J. Grenemyer 01-22-04, 08:14 PM	Hello Everyone, Well, it looks like we may never get to the bottom of this. “This Reporter” (;)) was unable to turn up any solid reasons for the Novel Board closures. However, I can say WotC Mel was surprised that CustServ were not all made aware of what was going on, since Books had apparently assured WotC Mel that they had already informed CustServ about the pending Novel Board Closures prior to Mel’s posting the Wizard Novel Forums announcement (a full two days ago, for those who are counting). WotC Mel informed me that she had forwarded my initial email inquiry to CustServ so I might get some answers (and also to help get them back on the ball). About an hour after I got Mel’s response, I received from CustServ the same canned response that Crust had been sent (and later posted on page 1 of this thread). So it looks like CustServ isn’t interested (or able) to answer specific questions. About the only working theory I left have that seems reasonable is that the Books Department had to pay part of the operating costs for the Novel Boards, for which they couldn’t justify the expense. Regardless, it looks like theory and conjecture are all we’ll have. In closing, it’s really, really sad to see the sum of the last couple years worth of work (on the part of WizO’s Paradox, Autumn and BigSister) to make the FR Novel Boards a welcome place where authors and fans can interact ultimately go to waste. So long Novel Boards and thanks to the WizO’s for working hard to make it worthwhile for as long as it lasted! J. Grenemyer [EDIT: Spelling]
Ryltar Swordsong 01-22-04, 08:50 PM	Yet another insane decision from the bigwigs at WotC. I'm not surprised anymore by the stupidity of the corporate heads at WotC and Hasbro.
PeteWyrd 01-22-04, 09:15 PM	Perhaps, Hasbro is selling off WoTC and this is merely the first part of said deal.....
Shemeska the Marauder 01-22-04, 10:00 PM	I would doubt that highly. I can however agree that if somehow the books division was in part financially liable for the novel boards' upkeep than they might feel happily content to axe it to keep numbers looking better. Were that the case I highly doubt the person making the decision would have any connection to the community here, they'd be stuck somewhere in middle management or a number cruncher. Suffice to say it's a free service by WotC and their's to change or remove at their whims, regardless of how some of us feel. I feel bad for the Wiz-O's having to handle the fallout of the board closure, but it's completely out of their hands. It's a product of operating in a corporate environment and unless any of us are Hasbro stockholders, which I am not, we can't much complain besides express regret.
Plunderer_of_the_planes 01-22-04, 10:08 PM	Originally posted by PeteWyrd Perhaps, Hasbro is selling off WoTC and this is merely the first part of said deal..... Add in the shutdown of the WOTC stores and Gamekeeper you might be on to something. Then again it may be as said a cost that was unjustified that needed to be liquidated. Alot of companies have had to trim some lately. Even the Parent company of where I work has had to. (trust me thats a big thing since the Parent company in question is Yamaha) Best thing to do is just sit back and wait. It'll hopefully iron out soon.
Shemeska the Marauder 01-22-04, 11:08 PM	I dunno, Hasbro seems to be doing well and their stock price has stayed fairly constant from $20-22 since last year sometime. *shrugs*
Plunderer_of_the_planes 01-22-04, 11:28 PM	Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder I dunno, Hasbro seems to be doing well and their stock price has stayed fairly constant from $20-22 since last year sometime. *shrugs* You do have a point there. I dunno the reasoning buit as long as they keep the sourcebooks coming I am not going to get worried. I do feel bad for those that used the novel threads but since I wasn't a big fan of most of the D&D novels ( there are a select few I like) it doesn't affect me that much. Like I said just ride it out it'll get better.
J. Grenemyer 01-23-04, 12:58 AM	Hey Guys, I just visited the Magic MetaBoard and found out they are discussing this issue there as well. Of note is a post by WotC Mel that makes it quite clear that there is no "back-charging" of Boards Costs to different departments withing WotC's corporate structure. Thus, the Books department is not responsible for paying the costs of hardware, software and mod salaries for the various Novel Boards. That's another theory shot down... Oh well, I'll post any other pertinent info as I find it. J.
Darkmistress 01-23-04, 02:05 AM	*inserts a ten -- no, make that twenty! -- pages manifesto here that rants about... uh... I don't know, how much Darkmistress hates Drizzt, how Darkmistress doesn't like the styles of Mr. Salvatore or Greenwood in general, etcetera? Oh, and how she fangirls EC/Richard Lee Byers and War of the Spider Queen books. And Jennifer Hale's voice, if anyone's interested* There you go. :D *leaves by the back door and takes the actual rant to her Livejournal* WizO_BigSister said: *It will not be permissible to post literary criticism of any novels in any thread. Interesting, that, though I doubt the criticism is a major reason. (Authors' feelings hurt...?) I mean, does it actually affect the sales of novels? IMO, it has the opposite effect. I wouldn't have bought as many FR novels as I have if I didn't see recommendations on this forum. And no matter how many times I criticize Mr. Salvatore's books, I highly doubt people go, "Oh, Darkmistress says they're bad, so they must be! I'm not gonna buy 'em!" Swell. We can only speculate, though it prickles my brain, too. I wonder if it's something as obscure as what happened to the General Gaming on Interplay site?
Adrian Moonbow 01-23-04, 02:13 AM	It still makes no sense, though. It was one of the most visited boards, and THE reason for me to stay around here... I love all you nice authors that found time to chat with us lowly fans, and thanks to the WizO's (especially Bigsis) for keeping the chaos at bay these last couple of years. I'LL MISS YOU, NOVEL FORUM!!!:bigeyes: :bigeyes: :bigeyes:
cwslyclgh 01-23-04, 05:02 AM	I say we all go over to RAS web site and bother him so much that he makes WotC put bringing the board back as a clause in the contract for his next Drizzt book just so we will go away :smirk:
*Shimmergloom* 01-23-04, 08:37 AM	I enjoy/ed lurking on the novels forum. I can catagoricly state that without it there's no way i would have started reading the WOTSQ series. And as a direct result of postitive recommendation by various members, I picked up book 1 of the Avatar Series. Very glad I did so, indeed! It looks like I might too have to move elsewhere. :sad:
mother1219 01-23-04, 01:21 PM	While I certainly am not angry about the boards being removed, as some people clearly are, I have to say that I will miss them. I am not going to attempt to speculate as to why WotC is shutting them down, because it's really not my concern. As Ms. Cunningham pointed out, most publishers do not even have this sort of thing for their readers. I always appreciated that WotC did...it was one of many things that made them different in a good way, at least for me. However, I am not paying the bills and I am not monitoring this board. That would be a considerable undertaking and one which I'm sure costs money and time. It's WotC's call ...the board's are theirs. I respect that. I think it's kind of like borrowing a cool game from a friend. Eventually they're going to ask for it back. When they do, you can whine and moan, but why? That friend will be less likely to loan you anything again after that, and who could blame them? Just say thanks be glad you had use of it while you did. So, thank you WotC, for giving us this board. It was not only useful, but fun as well. To all of my fellow board-goers that I have listened to and have come to respect on these boards, some of them I even consider friends, I hope to see you somewhere else out there in the ether. Keep writing and reading :) To the authors, editors, and other professional folks in this industry (EC, RLB, Lowder, Archer, Reid, Baker, the list goes on and on), thank you very much for all of the time and energy you have put into your advice and insights on this board. Take care, all. -M1219
Selgaunt 01-23-04, 03:17 PM	Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder Already sent customer service a polite, direct message expressing my disappointment and concern that whatever the reasons for this decision, someone needs to have their head examined because this is likely to negatively impact their novel sales. I can name at least 5 novels that I would not have gotten if not for the positive reviews on this forum. I'm not going to go out of my way to visit a dozen different author's messageboards to get book reviews to decide what to spend my cash on. *sigh* Couldn't agree with you more!!! I also purchased at least 3 novels of which i had no idea they were out! Thanks to this board, i get all the info I need in one place!!!
Edward Bolme 01-23-04, 03:30 PM	So what other boards are available besides Candlekeep? Gotta decide where I'm gonna move. Or set up a board of my own.
J. Grenemyer 01-23-04, 03:30 PM	Hello Everyone, I think I found as good an answer (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2403271#post2403271) as we are ever going to get on the Magic Meta Board. (With thanks to Kerrick, Sleeper Agent) I'll re-post the relevant section below: Dear Mr. Mabie, Thanks for the detailed input. I'll discuss with others here the possibility of a Magic storyline forum. In brief, our decision to close the boards has to do with resources. We have an extremely limited marketing budget, and it made more sense to us to devote those resources to other aspects of our web site than to maintaining boards, especially when a lot of authors have message boards on their sites and when there are many other forums on the web for discussing our novels. Quite frankly, we were influenced as well by a lot of the negative discussion and author bashing that's gone on. Too often a small group of people have hijacked threads to attack authors and their works, driving many authors off the boards altogether. It didn't make a lot of sense to us to sponsor a forum dominated by attacks on the very products we're trying to sell. I agree with you that a lot of people may be upset by our decision, but I think it's for the best. However, as I said, I'll discuss the idea of some sort of Magic storyline board with the folks here, and we'll see. Thanks again for your input. Best, Peter Archer So it looks like is was -to a degree- our fault. Sad, that. :(
WizO_BigSister 01-23-04, 05:41 PM	J. Grenemyer thanks for copying that letter over here. It is extremely helpful. Although the Novels Forum was my biggest headache (for reasons outlined in Peter Archers letter) I have to say I did not want to see it go. I fought as hard as I could to discourage bashing, and encourage balanced and constructive discussion. The amount of nasty, unbalanced mud slinging posts had dropped significantly, and that I was actually really pleased with the way people were showing maturity and intelligence. The "good" posts and the "good" posters vastly outnumbered the problem posts and posters. Let’s not get into blaming and singling out of people; and let’s avoid naming the "problem" posters. That will achieve nothing, it could incite a nasty fight, and it breaks the CoC. Besides, they have already seen the consequences of their actions. So well done to the majority; and commiserations on losing your board. :sad:
Dargoth 01-23-04, 06:07 PM	Originally posted by Edward Bolme So what other boards are available besides Candlekeep? Gotta decide where I'm gonna move. Or set up a board of my own. I actually wouldnt mind seeing a new board/website where all the authors are invited ie a central location for fans and the authors to talk about there novels. My first choice would be to have a forum on the O Love site.
WotC_Mel 01-23-04, 06:20 PM	Posting for Mary Kirchoff ____________________ The decision to close WotC's book message boards rests solely with me and has been in the planning for some time. As an author and a publisher, I fully understand the value of the boards to consumers, WotC, and the authors. However, as the vice president of publishing for Wizards, which includes both Books and Roleplaying Games, I also understand the cost in time and resources. It is my responsibility to make sure those resources are wisely spent. Creating separate Books and RPG forums for discussion for each of our worlds was made years ago, at a time when Books and RPGs were in separate divisions of the company with separate marketing budgets. The Book Publishing department has made a business decision to focus on website content and other initiatives due to the fact many of our authors have their own boards where fans can converse. I'm sorry for the loss of connection some long-time web friends may feel as a result of this decision, but I hope that they will be able to reconnect at our other boards or those provided by our authors. I understand that it's far more interesting to speculate about corporate conspiracies, but there really isn't one here. I'd be less than honest if I didn't admit that the final decision was made easier in light of the volume of extremely negative and insensitive chatter last fall that distracted authors, and the Publishing and Web team staffs alike. We take very seriously our responsibilities to our fans, our authors, and our company to publish the best shared-world fiction and bring it to market in the best possible light. Now everyone will have a little more time to do just that. Mary Kirchoff Vice President, Publishing Wizards of the Coast
tuathadedanannprincess742 01-23-04, 07:04 PM	They're closing the novels forum? I hate that! Nine tenths of my posts were there. (This is my first post under this name, but I'm really yawgmoth_742: someone - Great_Mosquito - deleted my cookies, I don't know my password, and my e-mail is down for some reason.)
James Lowder 01-23-04, 08:06 PM	Originally posted by J. Grenemyer Perhaps all the novel authors banded together and told WotC to close the boards for all the crap being hurled at them. Since no one else has addressed this, I will. Some of the authors--myself included--have had discussions with the book department about the negative tone of the boards. The first and best and most often repeated suggestions put forward by every author with whom I've discussed this matter--and that includes Bob Salvatore, who is being unfairly singled out by some of you as the cause of this turn of events--was the same. Over the past months and years, Bob and I and other authors--many of whom no longer participate on the boards--suggested more active monitoring of threads, less tolerance of the negativity that made the boards and fiction-related threads increasingly uncomfortable and unpleasant for fans and authors alike. We wanted the interaction to continue here, but in a more constructive and upbeat atmosphere. Please note, though, that these discussions were not the first had on the subject of the boards, as the note from WotC VP Mary Kirchoff makes clear. WotC recognized a problem long ago, and decided that closing things down now was the best and most cost-efficient way to solve it. But the solution is not what the authors demanded. The authors' voices were only some of many in the discussion. The problems we cited were only some of the myriad factors that went into WotC's decision. So fans should not be laying their unhappiness for this decision at the authors' feet, particularly at one author's feet. There are certainly details neither the authors nor the WizOs were made privy to, considerations that a corporation has to make that are wildly complicated. In the end, WotC mgmt. made what was obviously going to be an unpopular decision--they had to know the backlash was coming, and certainly don't like being thought of as random and despotic. So it's unlikely they made that decision lightly. We all have to trust that they did what they did for sound reasons, and move on. Most of the writers who participated here are not hard to find on the Internet, so I'm certain you'll continue interacting with them at places like Candlekeep or the message board at rasalvatore.com. For myself, thanks for your continued interest in my work. I'm certain I'll be chatting with many of you again. Cheers, James Lowder
RoaP 01-23-04, 08:27 PM	Originally posted by WotC_Mel Posting for Mary Kirchoff ____________________ I'd be less than honest if I didn't admit that the final decision was made easier in light of the volume of extremely negative and insensitive chatter last fall that distracted authors, and the Publishing and Web team staffs alike. We take very seriously our responsibilities to our fans, our authors, and our company to publish the best shared-world fiction and bring it to market in the best possible light. Now everyone will have a little more time to do just that. Mary Kirchoff Vice President, Publishing Wizards of the Coast I have to say that I am quite disappointed that a decision of this magnitude (meaning that it affects so many loyal fans) was made because you viewed a number of "negative and insensitive" posts as being distracting. As you have pointed out yourself, the chatter will still go on at other websites and thus will continue to be distracting, if authors and editors chose for it to be. And in the same fell swoop, it seems to be a slap in the face at Big Sister who (in my opinion) did an excellent job patrolling the Forums. In the end, you have let a few bad apples spoil the bunch. And the worst part is that it seems you are shuffling the blame off on the posters for causing the death of our own Forum. Mr. Lowder's post was much more diplomatic and I really appreciate it. He was trying to stave off the perception that the authors (or a single author) was instrumental in shutting our beloved Forum down. If it was a budget decision, please just say it was a budget decision. The extra paragraph you posted, which I have quoted above, seemed as "negative and insensitive" as anything I have read onthis Forum.
Simon Says 01-23-04, 10:47 PM	I have to say, I'm disappointed as well. And while I don't want to sit around and bash the authors, this obviously falls squarely in their laps. Perhaps it's because the right side of their brains are dominant (and I see it in artists and actors as well), but really, the authors are simply too sensitive. Case in point: critiques. Now ... everyone knows there are bad people in any message board environment, trolls and the like who only wish to stir up trouble. But these kinds of people are by no means the majority. Still, many of the authors seem to react in an extremely negative way to ANY critique, even when sandwiched between praise. I don't have enough fingers on my hands to count the number of authors who will readily reply, "Thanks for reading! Have a nice day!" to a glowing review, yet if even one negative thing is mentioned or if anyone DARES (GASP!) suggest something to one of these professionals, the critic usually get zero response. Unless said response is Elayne Cunningham rushing to (fill in the blank)'s defense. Well, at least she has the gumption. I guess. WotC authors: a troll is a troll is a troll; you can smell one a mile away, and we (the general enlightened readership) understand that you wouldn't want to debase yourselves to look the lowest common denominator in the eye. Either would we. But if 75% of a given group of people all have the same suggestion to the same author, likely there's something to these suggestions. I was all set to give my review of "The Sapphire Crescent", to strike up some discussion, get some buzz going, but I don't think I'll bother now. Why? It's time for me to fly. No more Forgotten Realms books for me. Consider this my official boycott. I'll be hanging out in the Eberron forum, where THAT world's creator routinely hangs out, answers critiques (yes, there are actual CRITICS of something that hasn't even been RELEASED yet), and looks the naysayers dead in the eye. Good day.
Lord Karsus 01-23-04, 11:19 PM	:( :sad: So unfair... volume of extremely negative and insensitive chatter last fall that distracted authors, and the Publishing and Web team staffs alike. Now, tell me...Where is the "volume of extremely negative and insensitve chatter"? Grr....I'm so angry right now, I don't even know what to write....
Bump 01-23-04, 11:48 PM	I know that Doxxie and the Wiz_os WANT to have writers post with us. I'm sure none of them are happy with this. James- Isn't there something you can do? You and Elaine and maybe even Bob can get together and say something to WOTC? What were some of the other options and things that were discussed? Surely this extreme measure of closing things down couldn't have been the ONLY option available. The Wiz_os are already accused of being thoght police. Well now everyone is censored. Thanks. Good job. As far as negative posts, I didn't see that many. Sure, one or two bad posts by some jerks, but I didn't see a need for such an extreme "close all the novel forums". From what I've heard, there were NO negative posts at all on the Magic Novel forums. And yet, those are gone as well! The majority of posts were positive! Those novel boards were better behaved than the general boards! So if you writers want to continue to communicate with fans, join us in our writing campaign to keep the boards!
Nate Palm 01-23-04, 11:58 PM	What a goofball decision to make. Like another poster stated above, I was gonna skip the WotSQ series until I read all the POSITIVE feedback on the FR Novels Board. Now not only is that board gone but we can't even discuss the novels on the FR General board!? Insanity. 'Nuff Said. Brock
cwslyclgh 01-24-04, 12:22 AM	it may have been a dumb-ass discision, but what is done is done... no sense crying over what we have no control over... although I must say that if the authors are letting some negative comments by faceless jerks on a message board be a "distraction" as in affecting thier work performance.... I think WotC needs new to find new authors, because the ones they have seem to have some serious psychological dependency issues. (not that I am saying that the authors were actaully being distracted... I am simply rebutting to the position given by "the management").
BobROE 01-24-04, 12:36 AM	Originally posted by James Lowder Some of the authors--myself included--have had discussions with the book department about the negative tone of the boards. The first and best and most often repeated suggestions put forward by every author with whom I've discussed this matter--and that includes Bob Salvatore, who is being unfairly singled out by some of you as the cause of this turn of events--was the same. Over the past months and years, Bob and I and other authors--many of whom no longer participate on the boards--suggested more active monitoring of threads, less tolerance of the negativity that made the boards and fiction-related threads increasingly uncomfortable and unpleasant for fans and authors alike. We wanted the interaction to continue here, but in a more constructive and upbeat atmosphere. Please note, though, that these discussions were not the first had on the subject of the boards, as the note from WotC VP Mary Kirchoff makes clear. WotC recognized a problem long ago, and decided that closing things down now was the best and most cost-efficient way to solve it. But the solution is not what the authors demanded. The authors' voices were only some of many in the discussion. The problems we cited were only some of the myriad factors that went into WotC's decision. So fans should not be laying their unhappiness for this decision at the authors' feet, particularly at one author's feet. There are certainly details neither the authors nor the WizOs were made privy to, considerations that a corporation has to make that are wildly complicated. (Sorry I quoted so much). Now I can accept that the Novel forum itself was shut down for cost reasons (or at least somewhat, I can't see that the maintanance costs were that high since the have the server space for all the rest of the forums). However I don't think the ban on discussing the novels was because of the cost. It is directly due to complaints about negativity, which I feel should just be ignored by authors if it bothers them. I think it's just a ludicrous decision to try to prevent any sort of discussion about novels from going on here, it's just going to cause more work for the mods, and annoy/anger members. Adam
James Lowder 01-24-04, 12:37 AM	Originally posted by Simon Says I have to say, I'm disappointed as well. And while I don't want to sit around and bash the authors, this obviously falls squarely in their laps. Hi: To be clear about this: As far as I know, none of the authors complained about critiques. Negative comments go along with the job. What prompted the concern among some of the authors were the numerous personal (not critical) attacks, the bullying of fans when they said positive things, the lies and outright libel that were being posted. This is a corporate site, so those things--accusations of dishonesty, plagiarism, and the like--have more weight when posted here than when they are posted elsewhere on the net. And when that concern was voiced it was accompanied by suggestions for stricter posting rules and the like, not a request for all critical comments to be eliminated. As a WotC VP has already posted, the company shared the concern about negativity, but their reasons for shutting down the boards went far beyond that single issue. Cheers, James Lowder
James Lowder 01-24-04, 01:06 AM	Originally posted by Bump James- Isn't there something you can do? You and Elaine and maybe even Bob can get together and say something to WOTC? Hi, Bump: WotC's decision involved factors that go beyond the authors' concerns or, to be blunt, their business. (I spent enough time on the other side of the editorial blotter, in house at TSR, to feel comfortable saying that. I'm not privy to the details of this decision, but I sat through enough similar meetings back in Lake Geneva to imagine all the things that might have come into play. It ain't pretty. ;) ) WotC considered what the authors suggested about the boards and what the WizOs suggested, but whatever other issues management had--well, they demanded different, stronger action than either the authors or WizOs proposed. I accept what they've decided, even if it's not the decision I would have made, and trust that they did what they did for good reasons. There are good forums at Candlekeep and rasalvatore.com, and the best thing would likely be to move the party to one of those places. Maybe the various problems to which WotC is reacting will pass. Maybe one of those forums will turn into such a haven for fans and authors that WotC will reconsider. Or maybe the discussions will simply work much better somewhere that is not complicated by specific corporate responsibilities and limitations. Cheers, James Lowder
Lord Karsus 01-24-04, 01:09 AM	Will all of you authors stay here with us, and comment on other topics related to your work? Or, will you all abandon us?
Wooly Rupert 01-24-04, 01:21 AM	Originally posted by BobROE I think it's just a ludicrous decision to try to prevent any sort of discussion about novels from going on here, it's just going to cause more work for the mods, and annoy/anger members. Adam I'll agree with this part. Shutting down the novel forums is a major step, as it is. Disallowing all talk of novels, unless it is relevant to a non-novel thread? That's going a bit far, thinks I. Basically, unless we say "yeah, something like that happened in this novel", then we can't even mention novels... I dunno, maybe it's just me, but thinks I that that is overkill.
Ryltar Swordsong 01-24-04, 01:44 AM	Bah, I'm done with WotC novels from now on. I can't give negative comments about books I don't read, right?
Thenger 01-24-04, 02:53 AM	Hello All, Well cost, that is what they say? Sorry but I dont' belive that, I used to keep a server & forum going, you know much it cost me in a year to keep it going? Oh about 50 bucks for the domain name and 250megs of space. Cut it down by the size, dont' let people use avatars and that will open up a ton of room, since honestly ansii text is very small in size. I play EQ and I their are a TON of sights that have this if not more traffic then the book section and are kept up by a single person. Money? Last I checked WoTC sells about 2 D&D books and has the cash to keep up one forum for a year. If they want to give an answer at least lets be smart bout it. They already have the domain name in WoTC forums, so that drops to about 20 bucks a year, heck lets say 30!!! Oh another easy way to keep the space low, give a cut off date of like; if any post is older then 6 months perge it out of our data-base. Easy as pie. Darkmistress, if you can please PM me or write it on this forum of other good boards that talk about novels I would be in your dept. I only recently came to WoTC site and honestly only checked the novel section daily the rest perhaps once a week if that. To many people dont' have thick skin, which amazes me to this day still. One of the boards I go to daily uses the "f" word every other post and slams people that most of know 24-7 all in good fun. The chance to speak to some of the authers of the War of the Spider Queen was awsome though, they are all excelt writers and my hat goes off to each of you. I would willingly go to their web sites and forums if they have them set up, please post the links if they are. Once again, cost is just another line used when the truth of the matter is to far behind the line. I deal with the computer's and I know what the costs are since I ran a web site for a while. Simple answer for the masses that dont' know the information is wonder, but for those that do know the info on such things... It's like a slap in the face by WoTC. Thats all, have a nice night or not so nice.
Thenger 01-24-04, 03:01 AM	Hello All, Um one slight point. Even if Mr.X says that Book X sucks he still had to buy the book to read to say it sucked? Or am I tottaly wrong and thinking that they say Book X sucks for the heck of it? This makes no sense to me what so every and is very silly by WoTC. Grow thicker skin, take a step in the real world for the folks that cry in a corner cause people say Book X is bad. It's part of being an auther to hear about who likes and dislikes your work, actors deal with it on a daily basis, as an auther you do fall into a famous realm where people are going to throw negative things your way. It's how human nature is. This is just a forum where nothing is going to happen to the people. Some of the that cry need to leave their cush chairs and go out and see what real life is like without having a huge bank roll to buy anything and everything you want. Yes, I know I am not like this normaly, but this is just such foolish desion and everyone involed in it needs to stop watchen Babmi, and really Thumber... PS: What this decision did really now, is going to clatter up other areas of the boards. If people really wanted to be mean though the could creat countless of new topics. WoTC, be happy it's just a couple topics as it is.
WizO_BigSister 01-24-04, 03:14 AM	Last warning folks. Don't make personal remarks and insults. You do not need to name a person in order to insult them .... posting that all people who hold one position are stupid, whining, crying, too full of themselves etc etc etc is a personal remark and an insult aimed at an entire group. What you are doing is attacking the person rather than the opinion. Any more posts like this and I will start editing them out, and also taking action in private.
Wooly Rupert 01-24-04, 03:15 AM	Originally posted by Thenger PS: What this decision did really now, is going to clatter up other areas of the boards. If people really wanted to be mean though the could creat countless of new topics. WoTC, be happy it's just a couple topics as it is. Incorrect. We are specifically disallowed discussing novels, unless it's in reference to the thread's topic. If I started a thread on, say, the Drizzt Do'Urden books, it would be nixed. If, on the other hand, I started a thread on drow lifestyles, people could use and freely refer to the Drizzt books. Even discussing the possibility of a particular novel has proven to be disallowed.
Another Gnome 01-24-04, 03:21 AM	One of the boards I go to daily uses the "f" word every other post and slams people that most of know 24-7 all in good fun. And how many of those people being slammed all in good fun dare not to say anything in fear of getting even more dirt thrown on them? One man's fun is another's hell - just because you or even the majority of people visiting a given forum ignore hostilities doesn't mean those hostilities don't exist, nor that everyone ignores them and takes them as harmless humor. Though I'm not pointing out you in particular here, just making a statement that it is not lacking a thick skin that is a problem when it comes to personal insults, the problem is ever having a need for that skin.
Dargoth 01-24-04, 03:36 AM	Originally posted by WizO_BigSister Last warning folks. Don't make personal remarks and insults. You do not need to name a person in order to insult them .... posting that all people who hold one position are stupid, whining, crying, too full of themselves etc etc etc is a personal remark and an insult aimed at an entire group. What you are doing is attacking the person rather than the opinion. Any more posts like this and I will start editing them out, and also taking action in private. The scary thing is that by behaving the way they are, their literally justifying one of the reasons WOTC shut the forum down ie Abusive/Negative statements
Darkmistress 01-24-04, 03:48 AM	Originally posted by Ryltar Swordsong Bah, I'm done with WotC novels from now on. I can't give negative comments about books I don't read, right? Bwahaha.
Zanan 01-24-04, 04:05 AM	Gone but not forgotten. Anyway, the authors will still be here, we will still be here and if there are questions, you can put them into this board with no problem at all. Enjoy your weekend!
Enagonios 01-24-04, 04:21 AM	word. this bites. :behold: oh, since this is probably the last post about forums (or anything else) im gonna make on these boards, could someone answer the question i posted the other day: Why wasn't Wyn the gold elf bard affected by the spell that altered the songs in all the other bards? this happened in elfsong.
Fredegar The White 01-24-04, 04:27 AM	a) Well i am gonna miss this board! b) A good thing is that i will stop reading any spoilers accidentally! c) I am gonna miss Elaine Cunnigham. d) I am gonna miss Darkmistress's comments.:D Bwahaha. :D And as years of experience (?) have taught me if we must look at both sides and the replies from mr Lowder and friends have been very satisfying! G'bye Novels forum!!!!
Josh Davids 01-24-04, 05:02 AM	Read through all of this and was a bit surprised when the announcement came, saddened yes, disappointed yes, a bit teed off yes I doubt anyone who read this announcement hasn’t felt a little bit of anger. After reading through the various reasons given, it seemed like for a day or two it was a hot potato tossing match till someone finally put it down in writing on the boards. The reasons off the bat seem valid, but I got to say the only way I can see that it is a financial decision in the least is what it comes to broad band space, the novels section was so popular that it was eating up the broad band, but even if that were the case there could have been things done to limit it as mentioned above. About the only financial reason I could see is broad band usage. Then I see basically it gets thrown at the people who did criticized the books, now when I read that I blinked a few times, then as I said before, the anger hit. So let me get this straight because I said I can’t wait till Salvatore starts up a new series the boards get closed down, etc etc etc, you know I got to say it really does erk me to sit there and actually blame the fans of the series and normally for the longest time I sat back and defended WoTC against its critics for something they did for me 6 or so years ago, been reading the novels since I was twelve when I was 17 started playing Magic the Gathering with my friends. The guy I always bought cards I got to know him pretty good, we talked a lot and he found out about the stuff I was going through at the time, Brain tumor, epilepsy, depression which playing Magic helped lift, sent a little letter to Wizards about it. low and behold a few weeks later get a small package in the mail from them, a personal letter from the gaming department and some stuff they had laying around, nothing great mind you but it was the thought that counted, made me a fan for life of them, helped lift my depression and fear right then and there, actually made me cry to for a time to see someone else outside of my family cared. Now with that story out of the way after this move will I go out of my way to say they are the greatest company in the world that cares about its fans, probably not, will I boycott them no like FR and the novels too much, but to sit there and blame the fans…. If people were being as rude as they said they should have been warned in private, which I am sure they were. They continued doing it then banned, how hard would that have been? I honestly don’t buy the money excuse all that much, and I don’t buy the excuse about abusive posters because those people could be banned from the site. I also want to be clear about one thing that has been bugging me for a time. When I am critical of someone’s work I try and get as kind as possible, not be too mean sounding and if I am I apologize afterwards, but some of the threads I got involved with offering my opinion have been the ones about the bashing thing. I am sorry for this slightly, not for actually offering my opinion no but what I did get tired of was being labeled a Salvatore basher by every other person including authors and other posters, troll was another one. You know the funny thing is when someone asks me who they should read in the fantasy world or just FR the first one I recommend is Salvatore, in fact the last 7 years I have bought 13 complete sets of the Icewind Dale Trilogy and have given them to friends family, even one friend in Australia who couldn’t find a single book in his area, it actually took me two months of counting pennies literally to send him those books now I got to ask does someone who hates Salvatore do that? I will not sit here and lavish praises on someone if what I think they did wasn’t the best, I will tell them that so and so scene didn’t make sense, the character has been going on too long, why did you kill that character off? And if they respond back and clear things up, great that gives me a new understanding of the books and character and the author. The board helped me in the fact with Mr.Lowder and Mrs.Cunningham answering questions made me a better author, with the frequent discussion about characters in stories that stirred to life three characters I never gave a thought about before, will I miss the novel board, yep helped me out a bunch, but aw well such is life. Now will I be back here, possible just not as often as I was before, once every two weeks. Personally I am not going to any other site I came to the WoTC board specifically for the novels section, to listen to people about the novels, to learn from the authors and to try and become a better writer. I liked this forum because it was only about FR, there were no politics, no real world discussion, I just wanted straight talked about the books and the world, now that it is gone won’t be back as much and honestly I am still ticked about it being blamed on the fans, that is really bad sport. Goodbye all. And since this is my last novel post, Mrs. Cunningham finally got to read the Windwalker after injuring my right leg, nothing like agony and extreme pain to be used as an excuse to pawn the kids off on the wife for two days, got to say I sniffled with er what happened to the one sea elf, don’t want to give it away and was blown away by the book (also congratulations on the hardcover!), a very good read took my mind off the pain for the two days I was reading, bless you for that! Anyways good book can’t wait to mangle myself so I got a great reason to read the last counselor and kings book, and maybe actually read the 20+ other novels I have yet to read..
elfinblade 01-24-04, 08:14 AM	hm..so it is over for me on these forums.. nothing left here. i only visited the novels forums to check in on the comments by the authors, but as i understand it, none of them are to be seen on any of the other FR forums here. im off.. goodbye. :mad: :mad: :mad:
Crust 01-24-04, 08:35 AM	Originally posted by WotC_Mel Posting for Mary Kirchoff ____________________ I also understand the cost in time and resources. It is my responsibility to make sure those resources are wisely spent. Well, I'm glad that the removal of the novels forum was able to bring Wizards out of its financial slump. I can see how removing one forum out of several dozen would fix things. :rolleyes: I'd be less than honest if I didn't admit that the final decision was made easier in light of the volume of extremely negative and insensitive chatter last fall that distracted authors, and the Publishing and Web team staffs alike. This is amazing. Young writers are taught to prepare themselves for criticism, even negative criticism. Successful authors, especially those who were at one time best sellers, should be able to shrug off practically anything. And yes, I know the authors are only human, but then again, so are the posters, so what's the issue? Authors are not "distracted" by the posts here, and if they have been, then someone here has probably touched on a point that that author knows is lacking in his/her work, and it stinks to hear it. An author who lets something as insignificant as the posts made here affect him or her should find another profession, one where criticism doesn't exist... good luck with that. We take very seriously our responsibilities to our fans, our authors, and our company to publish the best shared-world fiction and bring it to market in the best possible light. Now everyone will have a little more time to do just that. Further, now everyone gets to have their opinions concerning that shared-world fiction hijacked, and anyone who gives their opinion concerning that shared-world fiction will have their voice removed. Yeah, I'm thinking 1984. The negative comments made in the past on these boards were insignificant. From what I've seen, the so-called "mud slinging" and "bashing" were very rare things. Most of the so-called "negative comments" were actually quite accurate. So what now? We're supposed to go to RAS's site or EC's site and post our comments there? Certainly, very few people will post negative comments on an author's own board. I've been there, and I don't see much of it. We're being forced to be nice and polite. So how is that helping anything? I hear authors say that they want the negative and the positive so that they know what we, their fans, want in a novel. So now all that negative criticism they asked for is having another effect? "Eh, I don't like hearing my characters getting slammed. Please make them stop." I'm not quoting anyone, but that's the general feeling I get at least. The Wizards novel forum was a neutral ground where folks could have opinions and not worry about saying them. Now we all see how things work now, and it's a real shame. The ironic thing is that now, even if we clog these boards with complaints about the novels forum being taken from us, it'll never be brought back. One would think that the opinion of the fans means something. It's obviously the other way around.
Crust 01-24-04, 08:36 AM	Please delete. Not the above one, this one.
Crust 01-24-04, 08:53 AM	Originally posted by Josh Davids Read through all of this and was a bit surprised when the announcement came, saddened yes, disappointed yes, a bit teed off yes I doubt anyone who read this announcement hasn’t felt a little bit of anger. After reading through the various reasons given, it seemed like for a day or two it was a hot potato tossing match till someone finally put it down in writing on the boards. The reasons off the bat seem valid, but I got to say the only way I can see that it is a financial decision in the least is what it comes to broad band space, the novels section was so popular that it was eating up the broad band, but even if that were the case there could have been things done to limit it as mentioned above. About the only financial reason I could see is broad band usage. Then I see basically it gets thrown at the people who did criticized the books, now when I read that I blinked a few times, then as I said before, the anger hit. So let me get this straight because I said I can’t wait till Salvatore starts up a new series the boards get closed down, etc etc etc, you know I got to say it really does erk me to sit there and actually blame the fans of the series and normally for the longest time I sat back and defended WoTC against its critics for something they did for me 6 or so years ago, been reading the novels since I was twelve when I was 17 started playing Magic the Gathering with my friends. The guy I always bought cards I got to know him pretty good, we talked a lot and he found out about the stuff I was going through at the time, Brain tumor, epilepsy, depression which playing Magic helped lift, sent a little letter to Wizards about it. low and behold a few weeks later get a small package in the mail from them, a personal letter from the gaming department and some stuff they had laying around, nothing great mind you but it was the thought that counted, made me a fan for life of them, helped lift my depression and fear right then and there, actually made me cry to for a time to see someone else outside of my family cared. Now with that story out of the way after this move will I go out of my way to say they are the greatest company in the world that cares about its fans, probably not, will I boycott them no like FR and the novels too much, but to sit there and blame the fans…. If people were being as rude as they said they should have been warned in private, which I am sure they were. They continued doing it then banned, how hard would that have been? I honestly don’t buy the money excuse all that much, and I don’t buy the excuse about abusive posters because those people could be banned from the site. I also want to be clear about one thing that has been bugging me for a time. When I am critical of someone’s work I try and get as kind as possible, not be too mean sounding and if I am I apologize afterwards, but some of the threads I got involved with offering my opinion have been the ones about the bashing thing. I am sorry for this slightly, not for actually offering my opinion no but what I did get tired of was being labeled a Salvatore basher by every other person including authors and other posters, troll was another one. You know the funny thing is when someone asks me who they should read in the fantasy world or just FR the first one I recommend is Salvatore, in fact the last 7 years I have bought 13 complete sets of the Icewind Dale Trilogy and have given them to friends family, even one friend in Australia who couldn’t find a single book in his area, it actually took me two months of counting pennies literally to send him those books now I got to ask does someone who hates Salvatore do that? I will not sit here and lavish praises on someone if what I think they did wasn’t the best, I will tell them that so and so scene didn’t make sense, the character has been going on too long, why did you kill that character off? And if they respond back and clear things up, great that gives me a new understanding of the books and character and the author. The board helped me in the fact with Mr.Lowder and Mrs.Cunningham answering questions made me a better author, with the frequent discussion about characters in stories that stirred to life three characters I never gave a thought about before, will I miss the novel board, yep helped me out a bunch, but aw well such is life. Now will I be back here, possible just not as often as I was before, once every two weeks. Personally I am not going to any other site I came to the WoTC board specifically for the novels section, to listen to people about the novels, to learn from the authors and to try and become a better writer. I liked this forum because it was only about FR, there were no politics, no real world discussion, I just wanted straight talked about the books and the world, now that it is gone won’t be back as much and honestly I am still ticked about it being blamed on the fans, that is really bad sport. Goodbye all. It's posts like these that should be striking a chord in the folks who made the decision to remove the novels forum. I mean, aren't we now supposed to believe that authors and designers read these posts and take them to heart? Unfortunately, I suspect that this thread is doomed to be closed sooner or later. Someone will "bash" or "troll" or whatever that is, which will make it that much easier to silence the voices here.
Jinan 01-24-04, 08:59 AM	Originally posted by Darkmistress Sigh. Oh, well. I guess I'll hop off to somewhere where you can actually post remotely negative things and not get your threads locked. Oh, someplace like this? http://s2.invisionfree.com/godawful/index.php?showforum=209 Come on over. Have fun. Throw Jarts. :D
redd1 01-24-04, 09:31 AM	seeing that apparently all the novel forums were closed would they not make one forum for all the novels that wotc publishes instead of seperate ones for each world/line?? and as far as uncalled for negative comments go yes there were some from very obvious trolls but i would say generally all the negative comment were constructive and created some very intresting debates and dialog among the authors and other members of the board. but mostly i will miss the wonderful insight, intellegence and warmth that the authors displayed on the boards...i come to the wotc website everyday and doubt that i will actively go looking for another website or websites to interact with these authors...anyways it was a good experience while it lasted.
Freakboy 01-24-04, 09:46 AM	I would like to add a bit to the talk that is going on here. I am extremely disappointed that the Novels Forumn was closed. I absolutely loved talking with the authors from the WotSQ and Elaine Cunningham as well. I am angry about it as well, but I think it is inappropriate to sling mud at WotC about it. WotC is a coporate entity. Sometimes the decisions they make aren't going to be understandable to the average fan who had their free internet forumn removed. The politics that get involved in these sorts of decisions can be quite heated. Further, I think that finances probably had a role to play (don't they always) but its hard to concieve of how much financial impact one message board could have to a company. The best thing we can do is be calmly vocal in our frustration with the decision and encourage WotC to reconsider the decision in light of the value the boards had in promoting their products. We also need to show that the board had value in terms of showing the consumers (us) that WotC cares. All that being said, I don't think the Novel forumns will be coming back. It is unfortunate, but I still point out that having a free forumn like that was a privledge for us and not a right. Though I would gladly pay 5 or 10 dollars a month just to have access to that sort of forumn. The chance to talk with the authors and to get so much information about the novels I love so well, would be well worth the price. I want to thank all the WizO's for their hard work in making the boards a viable place for discourse. I also want to thank all the authors for sharing with us and enduring our insights both good and bad. Finally, I want to thank all the fans who shared the forumn for making it a lively place. Personally I appreciate the negative as much as the positive because a forumn where everyone has to have the same opinion about a book is too eerily reminiscent of Aldus Huxley's vision for my taste. I pray that WotC closed the forumns for reasons beyond that, but I certainly support their right to do whatever they deemed appropriate with their own product. Thank you all again, you will all be missed: authors, fans, and trolls alike :D
Bump 01-24-04, 11:10 AM	Thanks for the reply, Mr. Lowder! :) I just hope that when the trolls and the "I hate X author"/"I hate X book"/"I hate X character" people invade the other boards, they don't blame us over here. And I agree with you, I hope whatever it was passes and quickly. Maybe they'll give us the boards back. And though you didn't tell us what other options were suggested (I'm sure you're not allowed to say), they can't be as bad as "close the board down, and don't allow book discussion". I haven't seen Wiz_o Paradox's response to any of this yet. I'm going to email him.
ElaineCunningham 01-24-04, 11:23 AM	Originally posted by Josh Davids And since this is my last novel post, Mrs. Cunningham finally got to read the Windwalker after injuring my right leg... I would like to go on record as saying that I did NOT injure Josh David's right leg... ;)
theforsakendeity 01-24-04, 11:30 AM	a part of me honestly believes the popel that visit these borads are the majority of people that purchase the books. if they thought sells sucked before this just wait. i know i am joining the many and not buying anything from wizards anymore. there are plenty of other books/games out there that are just as good or better. i hope your happy wizards, you just keep losing customers with your very bad choices.
elfinblade 01-24-04, 11:56 AM	well, we just have to go to candlekeep.com `s forums now.
Thenger 01-24-04, 12:10 PM	Originally posted by Wooly Rupert Incorrect. We are specifically disallowed discussing novels, unless it's in reference to the thread's topic. If I started a thread on, say, the Drizzt Do'Urden books, it would be nixed. If, on the other hand, I started a thread on drow lifestyles, people could use and freely refer to the Drizzt books. Even discussing the possibility of a particular novel has proven to be disallowed. The whole point is for fun, where people go after each other. This one board is pretty much the collective of one of the oldest servers in EQ. It's better to take out one frustation on the boards then go after each on the game. With it, the server is one of the nicest playing ones in the game now a days. It keeps the peace. And people know the reputaion of the board so they post at their own risk and after a while they just open up and have a fun time.
Mirtek 01-24-04, 12:14 PM	Originally posted by theforsakendeity a part of me honestly believes the popel that visit these borads are the majority of people that purchase the books. if they thought sells sucked before this just wait. i know i am joining the many and not buying anything from wizards anymore. there are plenty of other books/games out there that are just as good or better. i hope your happy wizards, you just keep losing customers with your very bad choices. I don't think so. 1. I honestly do not believe that the people who did visit the novel board make the majority of people that purchase the books. If that would be true, better shut down the whole novel department. There were at best a few hundred people who visited the boards, and WotC sells certainly much more than just a few hundred pieces of each novel. 2. Even from the people who did visit the novel boards and are now disappointed the majority will continue to buy WotC novels. Some may stop to buy them, but most people will get over it and still buy WotC books in the future. And even if all of these people would never buy a WotC novel at all, i really doubt that a few hundred sells more and less (while certainly nice to have) would have any really noticeable impact on total sales
Crust 01-24-04, 12:19 PM	Originally posted by Mirtek And even if all of these people would never buy a WotC novel at all, i really doubt that a few hundred sells more and less (while certainly nice to have) would have any really noticeable impact on total sales Well, now that the novels forum is gone, the money saved with that decision will certainly mean that a drop in sales won't mean much. :rolleyes:
Thenger 01-24-04, 12:20 PM	Originally posted by Wooly Rupert Incorrect. We are specifically disallowed discussing novels, unless it's in reference to the thread's topic. If I started a thread on, say, the Drizzt Do'Urden books, it would be nixed. If, on the other hand, I started a thread on drow lifestyles, people could use and freely refer to the Drizzt books. Even discussing the possibility of a particular novel has proven to be disallowed. See I dont' understand this? After I finish reading the 4th book in WotSQ, I was going to ask where I can find Artemis and Jarlax in the short stories? How is this going to be blocked when i want to find what books I can find them so I can puchase the book? Odd...
ElaineCunningham 01-24-04, 12:47 PM	Originally posted by Simon Says I have to say, I'm disappointed as well. And while I don't want to sit around and bash the authors, this obviously falls squarely in their laps. Sorry you see it that way. There has been, and there will continue to be, a lot of speculation. Nothing much anyone can do about that -- at the end of the day, people will believe what they want to believe. Still, many of the authors seem to react in an extremely negative way to ANY critique This strikes me as a highly selective observation. I've seen many, many occasions in which many board authors engaged in a civil discussion of a critical point, or thanked posters for their observations, or in other ways acknowledged criticism. I've done it myself, many many times, without feeling or expressing rancor. You don't need to dispute a criticism to acknowledge it. What I usually do is provide more information, such as when a poster criticizes a character's name. I don't expect that knowing the derivation of "Ebenezer" or "Bronwyn" will change someone's opinion, but I've learned that people who care enough about the novels to post on specific points are frequently interested in such information. I don't have enough fingers on my hands to count the number of authors who will readily reply, "Thanks for reading! Have a nice day!" to a glowing review, yet if even one negative thing is mentioned or if anyone DARES (GASP!) suggest something to one of these professionals, the critic usually get zero response. Yes, there are some authors who do respond that way. Some are still getting acquainted with the fan base and internet interaction, and are wisely treading with caution until they are more familiar with the terrain. Others have learned that ANY response to a criticism is frequently perceived as "being defensive." I've been around message boards off and on for about a decade now, and I can't tell you how many times I've seen simple responses perceived as counter attacks when nothing of the sort was intended. Criticisms are seldom ignored, but sometimes, there's no good way to respond. Especially if a particular criticism comes from a person who has made similar remarks many times. After a while, it becomes obvious when someone is venting, sniping, or acting out a personal agenda. No discussion is required or, for that matter, desired. Unless said response is Elaine Cunningham rushing to (fill in the blank)'s defense. Well, at least she has the gumption. I guess. Thank you. I guess. I cannot ignore ten posts that snidely attack a colleague and then respond to a "glowing review" of my work in the same thread with a simpering, "Golly gee, how very very very nice of you." As Simon Says pointed out, criticism should be acknowledged. The Forgotten Realms is a shared world. Writers who stand on the shoulders of giants should never forget that most critics don't throw stones with pinpoint accuracy. Sometimes I'll participate in a thread that has a negative bend -- such as the RAS dwarf naming thread -- to suggest another point of view. I see this as discussion, not defense. But sometimes, yes, I do respond to personal attacks, gleeful public stonings, ill-considered and tasteless jokes, and other egregious examples. Sometimes I respond to trends rather than individual posts or posters. But let me point out something in the authors' defense, speaking from my own perspective. For every joking attempt to put discussion on a more positive track, every time I said, "Now, wait a minute -- if you don't know (XXX), you're not in a position to judge his work habits or character, and it's unfair and quite possibly liable to accuse him of plagerism/lechery/whatever," I've probably answered a dozen lore-related questions, provided a handful of links, encouraged several aspiring writers, or otherwise attempted to make these boards more interesting, helpful, or entertaining. Over the years I have put a great deal of time and energy into the Forgotten Realms community. So have many other authors on this forum. I participate on these boards for the same reason I volunteer in local schools: I'm part of a community and I give back what I can. So does every author on this forum. Trust me, despite what Simon Says, working writers can't afford to be thin-skinned. Every "public" person who posts here does so with the knowledge that doing so makes him or her a target. Anyone who hasn't been living under a rock for the last ten years knows all about trolls, snipers, and people who carry around their own little clouds of negative energy. It's part of the package. No one is shocked -- shocked! -- by the posting of a little criticism. I'll be hanging out in the Eberron forum, where THAT world's creator routinely hangs out, answers critiques (yes, there are actual CRITICS of something that hasn't even been RELEASED yet), and looks the naysayers dead in the eye. I'll leave alone the notion that there can be worthwhile criticisms of a product that has not been released, and simply wonder how long it will be before Eberron critics turn into flamers and snipers, Eberron contributors learn to pick their battles, and those authors who still look naysayers dead in the eye will blamed as the "obvious source" of all ills.
RoaP 01-24-04, 01:59 PM	Originally posted by ElaineCunningham . You don't need to dispute a criticism to acknowledge it. What I usually do is provide more information, such as when a poster criticizes a character's name. I don't expect that knowing the derivation of "Ebenezer" or "Bronwyn" will change someone's opinion, but I've learned that people who care enough about the novels to post on specific points are frequently interested in such information. I think this is what we are all going to miss Ms. Cunningham. Nobody (I hope?) is saying that trolling is a good thing, or that personal attacks should be tolerated. But the explanations to reasonable criticism is what a lot of us loved about this Forum. I remember that, when the Alabaster Staff came out, Mr. Bolme asked for criticisms on his work. I responded with a few things I would have liked to seen or wanted an explanation on, and he responded in a very professional way that made me rethink my arguments. I have seen you do the same thing in the past with other posters. Thats why some of us feel sort of at a loss. The powers that be seem to have cut off the proverbial nose to spite the face. I hope I can still find a forum where the majority of Realms authors hang around and give us those little explanations that make reading the books even better. those of us who are aspiring authors will also hopefully find somewhere else where we can discuss writing at length. Heck, maybe I will begin my own Forum where we can do just that. Speaking of which, if anyone else plays the computer game Neverwinter Nights, people who own the game can create guilds with their own Forums. Anyone else who owns this game interested in a "Realms-novel-centric" guild where we can not only get together for gaming but also discuss the novels?
Lameth 01-24-04, 02:52 PM	To shut down the Novel Board, without speaking to the fans is lame. We are fans and customers. To blame us for some stupid postings makes me very angry. This can not be.
Simon Says 01-24-04, 03:40 PM	First I *do* want to thank E. C. for her response. She is a stand-up gal, whatever other criticism anyone would like to level at her. And she usually comes with both barrels blazing, which is a refreshing change from the usual cardboard answers we sometimes get. Not afraid to call a pig a pig. I'll admit my own failings: I read the announcement and stewed for a day, then let my temper get the better of me. I apologize. Understand I only recently found this forum, and gravitated to the Forgotten Realms Novels section. I was more a lurker than anything, admittedly, but was getting set to begin a critique thread for a few of the newer FR novels. I *liked* that particular message board because it allowed me to get to what I loved most, books, and skip the other gaming stuff. And in a whisk it was gone, and I was mad, and I vented. Again, I apologize. Anyone who's run across my posts in the past knows I am anything but negative. I love Dungeons & Dragons. More to the point, I love books set in the Dungeons & Dragons worlds, because they complete the painted picture that was only forming in my mind. I'm not a writer; I can't do the things the writers do. But that still doesn't take away my ability to recognize something that stinks. And while I understand the corporate mindset, and know damage control is what it is, I still find it frustrating that I won't be able to go to the novels message board and say, "I liked this but hated that and then liked this" The Sapphire Crescent, for example: good book, great premise, horrible beginning. I nearly threw the book away after the prologue and the first chapter, wasting the good money I'd spent on it (anathema to me). But I reasoned, and hoped, the blame lay in the editing, and that there was a significant bit of descriptive background----ambiance, my kingdom for some ambiance!----somewhere on the cutting room floor. So I trudged on and the book won me over. The author's descriptive action is top notch, and the reader gets a very real sense of the protagonist's plight, and of his desperate motivation. A good story. I wanted to say that on the Novels MB, and open a discussion. A civil discussion. And that's not happening. I don't want to have to go to some rogue website filled with predispositioned negativity. I want to come *home*. But I guess I can't. I'm no longer mad. Just sad.
Iakhovas 01-24-04, 03:54 PM	Bye.
James Lowder 01-24-04, 04:21 PM	Originally posted by Simon Says I *liked* that particular message board because it allowed me to get to what I loved most, books, and skip the other gaming stuff. There is a specific message board dedicated to FR novels at http://www.candlekeep.com. Cheers, James Lowder
Josh Davids 01-24-04, 05:34 PM	“I would like to go on record as saying that I did NOT injure Josh David's right leg...” *chuckles a bit* god knows I needed a good laugh right now, one reason why I am going to miss the forums right now going through hard times here and came to the boards to try and escape a little bit of the stress I am going through. *still chuckles* for some reason the image of Mrs.Cunningham doing a flying tackle pinning me to the ground doing a figure four leg lock as I try and hit post came to mind when I read that. *just got a game idea WWE wrestling meets forgotten realms authors blinks then thinks needs to lay off caffine for a few days* or maybe not, ok silly moment over. Though got the nickname walking wounded since I was a teen and no matter where I move I always pick it up again. Anyways the reason I hurt my leg was actually my own stupidity, got a PS2 for chrimstmas, soon there after I rented Grandia 2 to see how it is, I was a huge fan of the original Grandia game from the PS One, anyways eight hours of sitting on the floor playing the addictive game gave me a sore hip, didn’t think anything of it been through pain in my life from having all the skin burned off the bottom of my feet to skull getting hacked open, so the next day I play a few more hours just to try and get through this one chapter and see how the story unfolds, hip hurt a little more. 4 days later I am in the emergency room asking the doc to hack the stupid leg off just to stop the pain, never been in such agony in my life who knew basically breaking the butt could hurt so much, burcisitis, ug. Also wanted to post one thing about the criticism thing Mrs.Cunningham brought up. I registered as my real name for a reason if I do criticize someone’s work I want them to at least know who it is coming from not some faceless person, might seem trivial but I would at least give them that, a real name not sometime like hackmaster483. and I was hestitant to do it I knew that if I posted a criticism about a few books might get attacked personally myself or the fact one day I wouldn’t mind working for WoTC some editor seeing a 10 page sample story, looks at the name sees who it is and tosses it in the trash bin, that might never happen but everyone is human you never know. Anyways I will miss it, might try Candlekeep, I think that is where one of my drawings is actually, need to redo the moonblade on larger paper in fact for better detail.
Nate Palm 01-24-04, 07:32 PM	Originally posted by Simon Says The Sapphire Crescent, for example: good book, great premise, horrible beginning. I nearly threw the book away after the prologue and the first chapter, wasting the good money I'd spent on it (anathema to me). But I reasoned, and hoped, the blame lay in the editing, and that there was a significant bit of descriptive background----ambiance, my kingdom for some ambiance!----somewhere on the cutting room floor. So I trudged on and the book won me over. The author's descriptive action is top notch, and the reader gets a very real sense of the protagonist's plight, and of his desperate motivation. A good story. Ah but this is the test. Now according to the new no novel discussion rule the above post is in violation. It's completely innocent, but will said post be removed? I guess we shall see. Brock
ElaineCunningham 01-24-04, 11:10 PM	Originally posted by Simon Says First I *do* want to thank E. C. for her response. You're most welcome. Actually, it was kind of fun. ::snip:: . . . I was mad, and I vented. Hey, it happens. No worries. You spoke your mind, then stood up and took responsibility for your words. That's as admirable as it is rare. The novel board is closed. Time to move on. Deadlines loom -- gotta run. ec
RoaP 01-25-04, 12:55 AM	Originally posted by Lameth To shut down the Novel Board, without speaking to the fans is lame. We are fans and customers. To blame us for some stupid postings makes me very angry. This can not be. Exactly. It makes me so mad that they would take something away from all the fans because of the actions of a few. Not only that, but the Dragonlance Fans, and the Magic the Gathering fans, etc. ... And then to have the gumption to throw it in our faces and say you have no one to blame but yourselves. :nonono: The more I think about it, I may join in that boycott.
James Lowder 01-25-04, 01:05 AM	Originally posted by RoaP And then to have the gumption to throw it in our faces and say you have no one to blame but yourselves. I don't believe anyone has said that, RoaP. The negativity of some of the threads and posts was a factor for the company, but one that was cited as a contributing reason for the shut-down, not the only one and apparently not the central one. Cheers, James Lowder
RoaP 01-25-04, 01:20 AM	With all due respect Mr. Lowder (and I love your writing by the way), Ms. Kirchoff's post seems to imply just that. It strongly gives the impression that the Novel Forums would still be around if there had not been negative posts. That there were cost considerations, but if there hadn't been negative posts distracting the authors, perhaps another section of the Forums would have gone instead. Oh well, I am done ranting. I probably well not boycott, because then I will just be depriving myself of something I love as a past-time, because of something I cannot control. I did my best to make my feelings known in hopes it would change someones mind, but apparently it won't. Instead, when life gives you lemons... Candlekeep may be a good website, but I am strongly consideirng starting my own forum. I will post again if this actually happens. In the meantime, I wish you all peace and the best in life.
ywhtptgtfo 01-25-04, 01:38 AM	The tone of the Novel forum is rather hard to generalize. There are threads that are very interesting and constructive and there are also those that are petty and radical. But all in all, most of them are good even if they contain critical ideas. One of the main purpose of the Novel forum is to allow readers to give input and opinions to the products that they have purchased. It will be extremely naive for the creator to assume or expect all participants to express everything in a positive tone. The fact that criticisms exist in that forum often reflects the fact that there are imperfections within the product that require attention. In some cases, it might be the case of a certain product falling well-below our expectations. As consumers, we do spend a good amount of money for the books (especially those in hard cover) and it is logical for us complain if we feel our cash are not well-sepnt. Besides, most authors do benefit from readers' input - that is, if they know how to tolerate them. All in all, I find great disappointment in the collapse of the Novels forum. I have spent a majority of my WoTC visits in that particular place and fully enjoyed most of the posts made in that place. At times, it served as a bulletin board of FR book advertisements and I did actually make several purchases just based on the book reviews (i.e. Shadow Stone, Siege of Darkness, and Evermeet). But anyhow, it is WoTC's decision to do this despite the act is unbeneficial to both parties. Hopefully, this will be reversed if officials have discovered a decrease in sales as a result. P.S. Novel discussions in a third party website are often unrestricted, which means people can speak more freely without fear of invoking BigSister's wrath. -ywhtptgtfo
ywhtptgtfo 01-25-04, 01:47 AM	I doubt every upsetted soul in this place is a twisted being who is outraged at the loss of the opportunity of ranting out at innocent people. Btw. Nice editting, BigSister. nb - I decided to delete the inflamatory post altogether, so I edited your respons. BigSister
WizO_BigSister 01-25-04, 01:57 AM	The bitter irony of it is the majority of posts I have had to edit or delete, and the majority of warnings I have been doing lately have not been aimed at those criticising the authors. They have been aimed at those insulting anyone who offers any negative feedback at all, and also denies their right to do so (even if it was in a polite and constructive manner). You may not be aware of this as the worst of the posts have been edited or deleted, and the waorst offenders get dealt with in private. Only the milder infringements get a public unofficial warning.
James Lowder 01-25-04, 02:03 AM	Originally posted by ywhtptgtfo It will be extremely naive for the creator to assume or expect all participants to express everything in a positive tone. I agree. But no one expected postive posts from everyone, nor a universally positive tone. There is a big difference between negative critical commentary or grumpy chatter, to which no one was objecting, and repeated personal attacks, accusations of plagiarism and dishonesty, and the thuggish brow-beating of posters who express support for certain books or authors. Even given that distinction, the WotC VP made it clear that while the negativity was a contributing factor to the decision, it was not the central reason for the shut down. Cheers, James Lowder
ywhtptgtfo 01-25-04, 02:11 AM	Is it possible for any open discussion forums to be free of any personal attacks or impudent individuals? I believe moderators are hired mainly for this matter. If you feel the situation needs improvement, whip the moderators harder and make a warning thread as a sticky.
James Lowder 01-25-04, 02:27 AM	Originally posted by ywhtptgtfo Is it possible for any open discussion forums to be free of any personal attacks or impudent individuals? I believe moderators are hired mainly for this matter. If you feel the situation needs improvement, whip the moderators harder and make a warning thread as a sticky. Free of such things? No. But it becomes a concern when they taint the atmosphere of the place. When it becomes the norm to see any thread involving certain characters or authors to spin off into attacks and screeds. And since the WizOs here have limited time and some of the posts--like accusations of plagiarism--do damage from the moment they are shoved into public, it's a tough row to hoe. (I certainly do not envy the WizOs their very difficult jobs, even at the best of times.) Maybe more WizOs, or more hours for the current WizOs, or stricter posting rules would have lessened the negativity problem. (Or maybe stricter rules would have made things worse, created more discontent....) In any case, the fact that this sort of limited fix was not the solution opted for by WotC management is yet more evidence that the problems and business concerns went beyond the negativity, went beyond the concerns of the authors and WizOs and other participants in the boards. Cheers, James Lowder
WizO_BigSister 01-25-04, 02:35 AM	Originally posted by ywhtptgtfo Is it possible for any open discussion forums to be free of any personal attacks or impudent individuals? I believe moderators are hired mainly for this matter. If you feel the situation needs improvement, whip the moderators harder and make a warning thread as a sticky. This as done ... both the whipping and the warnings. In fact I made an entire thread with explanations of the CoC especially as it applied to discussions of an authors work, and stickied it to the top of the forum. This thread with some later additions is also stickied to the top of this forum here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=110347) Various comments let me know that some people did not think these rules were strong enough, but they were based on the CoC and were checked by my bosses.
J. Grenemyer 01-25-04, 03:10 AM	To Everyone: I strongly urge those of you who are seriously considering boycotting the Novel line (or who have already made such a decision) to reconsider. Deciding to quit reading the novels as a form of “punishment” will only hurt WotC’s business and make the situation worse. Boycotting the books will not help anyone. After all, the VP made it clear that WotC’s media line is operating on limited funds already. If the net effect of a boycott is the loss of income for WotC… how soon until we loose the boards all together? No. Quitting the Novels is not the answer, because even if you don’t like what is going on within WotC’s corporate structure the last thing you want to do is hurt that structure, because it means less money to get novels published, to pay our favorite authors and ultimately means less novels per year. WotC has to be healthy before any positive change (such as bringing the novel forums back) could ever happen. On another note: Everyone who keeps bringing up how “cheap” it is to run a website never seem to include in their cost calculations what it costs to pay Moderator salaries, taxes, and benefits, as well as lawyer fees and other related business costs. Nor do they seem to consider what obligations WotC are under with regard to their decision making process, since such lay within a corporate structure that consistently expects maximum bang for the buck. I find it remarkable that comparisons can be made with the assumption that the “at home” model of running a board is how WotC does things. Lastly: Criticism Originally posted by Crust The negative comments made in the past on these boards were insignificant. With all due respect to Crust, the above text has got to be the biggest understatement I’ve ever seen posted. I’ve lurked and posted under three different screen names since I came to these boards back in ’01. Although I can say with confidence that the level of actual useful criticism had increased, while the level of personal attacks masquerading as “criticism” had decreased, the personal and professional attacks that have been posted on the FR Novel forums alone have all of them been exceptionally vapid, vicious and cruel. Libelous would be a fair descriptor of those attacks as well. And there were lot’s of them. For a time back in ’01 and ’02, you dared not start a thread titled, “Evermeet, Island of Elves” is a good read,” for fear of seeing your thread die in flames. (Does the SN “Silverthrone” ring any bells?) Seriously, people literally lurked on the novel boards, waiting for any thread even remotely associated with whichever author or book they had a beef with, so they could post, “Ahh, here we see yet another example of how author X doesn’t follow Canon/doesn’t do research/doesn’t follow QC guidelines.” And who can forget the near endless stream of invective hurled at Troy Denning? Because of this some of us went so far as to band together by deliberately hunting those lurkers down and mass-reporting their CoC violations in an effort to get them banned, because no matter the WizO assurances to the contrary, things weren’t changing for the better. That’s how bad it was. Further, it seems to me that some folks are misrepresenting the issue of criticism when they complain that the authors need to “grow a thicker skin”, because (based on what Mr. Lowder posted) the authors were never complaining about empty posts like, “Author X sux!” to begin with. Rather, it was the posts that went something like, “Author X doesn’t even follow established and commonly held guidelines for professional writers. Author X doesn’t know what he/she is doing.” Those are the posts I think that the authors were complaining about, and rightly so. Those posts aren’t criticism. Anyone who thinks otherwise is sorely mistaken. Lastly, to Mr. Lowder: I did not intend to "single out" anyone (such as RAS )when I floated the idea that the authors were the reason for the Novel Boards were being closed. I will admit, though, to a certain hope that one or more of the authors would respond with details on what was really going on. I apologize for being a bit underhanded about that. :D
WizO_BigSister 01-25-04, 03:17 AM	Originally posted by J. Grenemyer .... because no matter the WizO assurances to the contrary, things weren’t changing for the better. I beg to disagree. I have been a member of these boards since 01 in my non WizO persona, and I know just how bad things were. As I posted previously a concerted effort by many of the posters, Doxie and myself resulted in a significant improvement over the last few months.
ywhtptgtfo 01-25-04, 03:20 AM	It occurs not only in the Novels forum, but in others too. Why just this forum then? If it is with people bashing critical posts, then rules governing that area can be strengthened. After all, restricting people's manners is different to restricting people's opinions and would cause much less discontent than you will expect.
Ryltar Swordsong 01-25-04, 03:30 AM	Originally posted by J. Grenemyer To Everyone: I strongly urge those of you who are seriously considering boycotting the Novel line (or who have already made such a decision) to reconsider. Deciding to quit reading the novels as a form of “punishment” will only hurt WotC’s business and make the situation worse. Boycotting the books will not help anyone. After all, the VP made it clear that WotC’s media line is operating on limited funds already. If the net effect of a boycott is the loss of income for WotC… how soon until we loose the boards all together? No. Quitting the Novels is not the answer, because even if you don’t like what is going on within WotC’s corporate structure the last thing you want to do is hurt that structure, because it means less money to get novels published, to pay our favorite authors and ultimately means less novels per year. WotC has to be healthy before any positive change (such as bringing the novel forums back) could ever happen. So what? I'm ticked off at WotC enough to not care anymore. They messed up so much stuff in the 2e - 3/3.5e conversion as to make me nauseous. The trampling of Realms history since they took over is also apalling. Now they take away the novels forum? Granted, it seems a small thing, but in my case it's the straw that broke the camel's back. At this point, WotC can die a corporate death for all I care. I can still use my old D&D books to play.
WizO_BigSister 01-25-04, 05:04 AM	Originally posted by ywhtptgtfo It occurs not only in the Novels forum, but in others too. Why just this forum then? If it is with people bashing critical posts, then rules governing that area can be strengthened. After all, restricting people's manners is different to restricting people's opinions and would cause much less discontent than you will expect. Been there, done that, got the flak jacket to deal with those who objected to the more stringent application of the rules :D I suppose the point is that this happened after the WizO team addressed the problems on the novels forum, and the changes had resulted in an improvement. It seems a shame that the forums were closed before we saw just how far this improvement would go. The team really wanted to foster constructive and interesting discussions between authors and other members, and we worked hard to try and bring this about.
Harlamond 01-25-04, 08:59 AM	It saddens me to hear that the Novel forums are gone. Truthfully I rarely ever visited that forum and when I did usually it was just to lurk around. Get a little sneak preview of the FR novels that I was thinking of purchasing also every now and then I would have a question that I would post there and found the forum a very friendly and informative place when I visited it. One of my rare posts on that forum was about a character that I read about. I was asking for information about this character if he was in any other novels and such. Then to my surprise the author, MR. Edward Bolme actually responded to the thread and also sent me a PM and an e-mail to the question I asked and to some other questions I had. Well I was very surprised to hear from him and it’s a moment that I will always treasure especially since I’m a huge fan of Forgotten Realms lore and the story’s by so many great authors. This is one of my fondest memories of the Novel forum after talking to Edward Bolme I had to go out and tell all my friends that I actually talked to a FR novelist trying to share my excitement with them. I’m not sure what I’m actually trying to convey with this little story just that I’d like to say I’m proud to be apart of the FR community and that I’ll miss the Novel Forum but for what it’s worth I’d like to thank all the authors, WotC, the moderators and actually the FR community in general for making this website such a friendly/informative place that I personally enjoy visiting and spending time on.
Crust 01-25-04, 09:28 AM	Originally posted by J. Grenemyer To Everyone: I strongly urge those of you who are seriously considering boycotting the Novel line (or who have already made such a decision) to reconsider. Deciding to quit reading the novels as a form of “punishment” will only hurt WotC’s business and make the situation worse. Boycotting the books will not help anyone. Of course it won't help anyone, but I also doubt that it will have any affect on WotC, and it certainly won't lead to them bringing back the novels forum. We stop buying the novels, and WotC says, "Fine. You don't want to buy them, we'll stop making them." They'll focus on something else and move on. The voice of the masses is clearly of little importance to the larger company. Seriously, people literally lurked on the novel boards, waiting for any thread even remotely associated with whichever author or book they had a beef with, so they could post, “Ahh, here we see yet another example of how author X doesn’t follow Canon/doesn’t do research/doesn’t follow QC guidelines.” And who can forget the near endless stream of invective hurled at Troy Denning? I quote John T. Rateliff from his Return of the King review (good thing it's a movie and not a novel he's reviewing!): "Audiences aren't stupid: They know what they want, and they'll reward those who give it to them (and scorn those who don't)." Bingo. If an FR author...someone who is paid to do what they do, someone who has limitless resources to draw from, both from texts and authors/designers themselves (And don't tell me this isn't true. If an author wants to do their homework, he or she will do it. - *waits for the inevitable "Well, Crust, this isn't always the case."* Of course it's not always the case. Thus, the criticism.) ... doesn't remain consistent, doesn't stay true to the world they have chosen to write within, then the inevitable scorn mentioned above is bound to happen. We are not stupid. We know what we want, and we know what to expect, and if a professional writer can't provide that, then the fans will let him or her know about it. Well, not now... not here, at least. :nonono: By removing the novels forum, we are being shown that our voices mean nothing. We are being shown that instead of trying to fix the problem through the criticism of the fans, it is better to just bury it and smother the voices of those who have identified the problem. Regardless of the real reason behind the decision, whether it's based on money or the voice of the fans, the message being sent is clear. No one at WotC wants to hear our voices. They're fed up. They'd rather bury the problem rather than take our opinions to heart. We didn't post negative comments about RAS or Denning because we hate the man, we posted such comments because the book could have been better, and we hoped that our voices would make the next book better (obviously a foolish thought). Now we know how important our voices are. Now RAS and Denning (and whoever else) can work with inconsistency freely without the daunting thought of reading our harsh criticism here. :rolleyes: It is just so mind-boggling to me that a publishing company like Wizards would remove the only literary forum on their message boards AND ban any discussion involving the novels. It's a really, really poor move lacking any hint of professionalism, and it's the kind of thing that I hope haunts them for a long time.
James Lowder 01-25-04, 01:12 PM	Originally posted by Crust By removing the novels forum, we are being shown that our voices mean nothing. We are being shown that instead of trying to fix the problem through the criticism of the fans, it is better to just bury it and smother the voices of those who have identified the problem. Criticism isn't the problem, Crust. Never was the problem. The problem was personal attacks and that sort of negativity--not the same thing as criticism at all. And even then, the VP pointed out that this negativity was a factor among many, that there were other prompts for this decision. Besides, if you are correct about the content of the books, that's going to show up in sales figures whether the boards are here or not. You're right--audiences are not stupid and will reward or punish with their wallets. And the two authors you single out by name are selling very well indeed, have sold well for better than a decade. Cheers, James Lowder
Elereth_Berantor 01-25-04, 03:08 PM	Come on people, boycotting the books that we love because a forum is being shut down? That seems rather silly to me. If you really want to discuss the novels, Candlekeep has a forum for it. But to say you're not touching the books again because Wizards shut down the forums for them? Seems like a knee-jerk response to me. Show a little respect. Yeah, I don't like the novel forum being shut down either (though I didn't post much/at all in there I loved reading the author responses) but guess what, bad stuff happens some times. I'll repeat what keeps being said: go to the Candlekeep forums if you want to discuss the novels. It's really not that hard.
ywhtptgtfo 01-25-04, 03:57 PM	I'd rather not boycott the books, as it does me no good.
Nimor 01-25-04, 07:06 PM	Well, this kinda sadness me a little. I was kinda new in the foruns and this kinda takes away my will to subscribe to another one and all, you get used to the people and all. Well, im off, keep on reading good things ,everyone, it was fun! Adeus!!
Darkmistress 01-25-04, 09:33 PM	Elereth_Berantor said: But to say you're not touching the books again because Wizards shut down the forums for them? Seems like a knee-jerk response to me. Show a little respect. Yeah, I don't like the novel forum being shut down either (though I didn't post much/at all in there I loved reading the author responses) but guess what, bad stuff happens some times. Whether or not I'm joining the boycotting aside, what respect? I fail to see how boycotting the books is... disrespectful...? We're paying for the books, not the other way around -- we aren't being paid to read, for peanut's sake.
Wooly Rupert 01-25-04, 09:38 PM	oops.
Wooly Rupert 01-25-04, 09:38 PM	In reply to my earlier statement, which was: Incorrect. We are specifically disallowed discussing novels, unless it's in reference to the thread's topic. If I started a thread on, say, the Drizzt Do'Urden books, it would be nixed. If, on the other hand, I started a thread on drow lifestyles, people could use and freely refer to the Drizzt books. Even discussing the possibility of a particular novel has proven to be disallowed. Originally posted by Thenger See I dont' understand this? After I finish reading the 4th book in WotSQ, I was going to ask where I can find Artemis and Jarlax in the short stories? How is this going to be blocked when i want to find what books I can find them so I can puchase the book? Odd... Perhaps I should have been a bit more clear. If I understand all this correctly, you could post a thread saying something like "Hey, I just read this book, and I should like to know where I can find more info on these characters." However, starting a thread to discuss that particular book is verboten. Also, if you started the thread I described in the previous paragraph, and people started saying, "oh, I hated that book, the author should die" or "man, that book so r0XX0red!", then those particular entries would be in violation of the new policy. Also, a thread that said something like "hey, I think these characters should be in another book!" or "Bob the Author needs to write more books!" would prolly be nixed. At least, this is my understanding of the new policy. I'm sure that I will be corrected if I am wrong.
The Silk Orchid 01-25-04, 09:55 PM	I have never purchased any of the Novels. I have browsed and skimmed through them in Barnes and Noble, just to get an idea of what they are about. A very small idea. I try to keep what is in the novels separate from what is in the game. Though, I do respect anyone that can write a novel and said novel impresses its readers. Apparently, some folks have forgotten this courtesy and some drastic decisions had to be made.
WizO_BigSister 01-25-04, 10:07 PM	I would like to make something clear to those of you who weren't regular visitors on the Novels Forum but have been following this discussion. The moderating team set a very clear standard for posts on these forums. We also had more time to spend enforcing these standards on the Novels forum than on any other forum on the site. Here are the standards we set and enforced. A copy of these were displayed very clearly on the Novels forum, stickied to the top. The Golden Rule It is ok to attack what someone has written; it is not ok to attack the person who wrote it. If you can't tell the difference then maybe you shouldn't make the post! ________________________ The Code Of Conduct ~ Explanatory Notes * It is alright to disagree with what a person writes, or what they say here, but it is not alright to attack the person. * It is ok to offer some critical comments about an author’s work. However please do not write these in a rude or insulting manner. * If you aren’t sure what counts as rude, or what counts as a personal attack then perhaps you would do better to steer clear of posting criticism. * If you simply post “I hate everything insert-authors-name writes” without following this with examples and reasons then it causes problems. Firstly it is not a good way to get people to accept your opinion as valid. More importantly this kind of post acts as a magnate for flaming. * The WizOs and the vast majority of the members prefer to read constructive criticism – that’s when you don’t just say “this stinks” but you write a few suggestions about how you could make it better. * Don’t hijack a thread to pursue a vendetta. Don’t forget when you signed up to these forums you agreed to follow the code of conduct. This means you agreed to not do the following - Harassment of another specific person (e.g. persistent flaming or continued personal attacks on the boards or "in-character harassment" without prior out-of-character permission.) Trolling or baiting by putting to the screen inflammatory statements designed to illicit a negative response from the community The Code of Conduct has a rather nice summary Treat other people you encounter in the forums just as you would treat them in person--politely. _________________________ Constructive Criticism * Don't just give a strong of negative comments, say what you "liked" as well * Back up your opinions ... it isn't enough to just say "I hated it" * Offer polite suggestions, bearing in mind it is completely optional for an author to act on them. These suggestions aren't necessarily "this is how I would have done it better". They may actually be "this is what I personally enjoy more in a book". As the majority of our posters are not writers this second kind of suggestion should be much more common. * OFFER your suggestions and opinions; don't ram them down anyone's throat * Always be aware that this is just your opinion and not the "gospel truth". * The whole underlying foundation of what you write is the thought "I want to help this author" NOT the thoughts "I want to insult this author", "I want to look better than this author", "I want to take out my bad mood on this author", "I resent this author for making money at writing when I can't" etc. etc.
Crust 01-25-04, 11:13 PM	Originally posted by James Lowder Criticism isn't the problem, Crust. Never was the problem. The problem is that we, the posters, are not unable to post criticism now, whether good or bad. I was looking forward to reading novels like Extinction and Elminster's Daughter and giving my two cents. I enjoy that sort of thing. Now I can't do that. My biggest problem is that Wizards won't allow literary criticism on their boards.
Crust 01-25-04, 11:14 PM	Originally posted by WizO_BigSister * The whole underlying foundation of what you write is the thought "I want to help this author" NOT the thoughts "I want to insult this author", "I want to look better than this author", "I want to take out my bad mood on this author", "I resent this author for making money at writing when I can't" etc. etc. See, I've never seen this. If the reason I haven't seen this is because posts that mirror this behavior have been deleted, then why wasn't that continued? Why punish the whole for the deeds of the few?
James Lowder 01-25-04, 11:19 PM	Originally posted by Crust I was looking forward to reading novels like Extinction and Elminster's Daughter and giving my two cents. I enjoy that sort of thing. Now I can't do that. Of course you can. Go to candlekeep. Or Amazon.com. Or RPG.net. Or BN.com. There are plenty of places around the net to post reviews. Cheers, James Lowder
J. Grenemyer 01-26-04, 12:37 AM	Hello WizO_BigSister Originally posted by WizO_BigSister I beg to disagree. Forgive me for not being entirely clear: My statement regarding the state of the FR Novel Boards was on observation of how things were for the period of time prior to Paradox’ “laying down the law” on the FR Novel Board. :)
J. Grenemyer 01-26-04, 12:47 AM	Hello Ryltar, Originally posted by Ryltar Swordsong So what? I'm ticked off at WotC enough to not care anymore ... but in my case it's the straw that broke the camel's back. I've seen lots of folks give a list of reasons and end it with "the proverbial straw..." statement, whether here or on the Realms-L mailing list. Originally posted by Ryltar Swordsong At this point, WotC can die a corporate death for all I care. I can still use my old D&D books to play. But then what happens to DnD? Should it die as well? FWIW, I'm not ticked off at WotC, and I still use all my old FR Books to play too. Just out of curiousity, what did you win your UnCon prize for? Surely you must be interested in Third Edition to some degree if you made an excellent enough effort to be awarded a prize by your peers. :D
Lord Karsus 01-26-04, 12:55 AM	Ok, ok...The Novels Board has been gone for a couple of days now...Why are we still ranting and raving? Yes, the Novels Board did mean a lot to us...It was fun to have some say-so in how a particular book was made, or how future ones were written. But, the higher-ups at Wizards have decided to take it down. Yes, there are other places where we can critique. This was never our God given right. It was a privelage. Anyway, by ranting on and on about how unfair this is, and how WOTC should be banned, you are only fueling the feelings that got our Board taken away in the first place. Look at how many posts Big Sister has had to edit, or completely delete because of insults, comments, etc. By doing that sort of stuff, you are only showing everyone that we deserved having the Board taken away. We should just let it go...Maybe, someday, with good behavior, our Novels Board might return...
ObsidianIII 01-26-04, 02:19 AM	Speaking from years of expierence as a corporate lackey, corporations do things that are only clear to corporate descion makers, I try to understand it, but I can't I am not a corporate minded person. The closure is depressing cause I have never talked to Dean Koontz on a message board or to Daniel Silva, or Greg Rucka, but I have had discussions with Elaine, and Richard Baker and Mr. Byers and Jim Lowder, and Bob Salvatore...And read Edward Bolmes posts before his book came out it, he was excited and it was great to share in that. I am sad I wont have the oppurtunity to discuss Maiden of Pain here, you know we would have blown up that subject cause we're all connected to it. Thank all of you for the posts, the great discussions we've shared. The authors for spending their time to answer us, or to discuss with us. Thank you to Big Sis for tirelessly keeping the peace. Thanx to all the Mopers for the fun...it was exciting keeping up with everyone. It was fun while it lasted...I am grateful for what time we did have and what we were able to share with each other. Aaron.
Malaug 01-26-04, 09:33 AM	What the.... I'm gone three days and this happens!!! Oh well no use crying over spilt milk. I've read the five pages beforehand and gone through all the emotions. Anger, sadness etc... I think right now I'm at burning shame. Seems like we are being blamed as the naughty child and we've been harshly slapped on the wrist. Well I would just like to say thanks to all the writers and also to all of the people that I met through the board and answered questions that I posted. I suppose that I'll wander off to the 2nd Edition board and live on, but with far lesser posts. One last thank you to Richard Lee Byers for saying thank you to me for a glowing review that I gave his WotSQ book. It's probably the closest I'll come to ever meeting an author and that is a damn shame. All I can do is ask WotC to reconsider but is that butting my head against a brick wall and not looking facts in the face? I suppose time will tell. Goodbye to some and I'll see you later to others! T.A.U.
ElaineCunningham 01-26-04, 12:51 PM	Originally posted by WizO_BigSister * The WizOs and the vast majority of the members prefer to read constructive criticism – that’s when you don’t just say “this stinks” but you write a few suggestions about how you could make it better. * Offer polite suggestions, bearing in mind it is completely optional for an author to act on them. These suggestions aren't necessarily "this is how I would have done it better". They may actually be "this is what I personally enjoy more in a book". As the majority of our posters are not writers this second kind of suggestion should be much more common. * The whole underlying foundation of what you write is the thought "I want to help this author" NOT the thoughts "I want to insult this author", "I want to look better than this author", "I want to take out my bad mood on this author", "I resent this author for making money at writing when I can't" etc. etc. All of the above is clearly well-meaning, but it's my observation that such rules helped set a tone for the board that is not consistent with the policy makers' stated intent. I've tried to explain this before, only to offend some posters ("So you're saying that our opinions don't matter!!?!!") Even BigSister didn't get my intention. ("Well, this is obviously another example of cultural differences in English language usage.") To these responses I say, "No, I'm not," and "No, it isn't." The email response of readers to the forum's demise prompted me to restate my concerns in light of recent developments. And frankly, as part of my personal, ongoing attempt to figure out the mystery that is online communication. It seems to me that when we call for "constructive criticism" and urge readers to help the authors improve by offering helpful suggestions tactfully sandwiched between slices of praise, what we're creating is not a literary forum, not a book club, but a writing group. Anyone who has ever been in a writing group knows exactly what I mean. A work-in-progress is read and discussed. Group members give suggestions for improvement. The author decides which suggestions to follow and which to ignore. Is there anything wrong with a writing group? Not at all. Many writers, both aspiring and experienced, find it helpful to have feedback on works-in-progress. Unfortunately, this experience doesn't translate well to a corporate forum designed for the discussion of published works. The first reason for this should be obvious: A book is not a work-in-progress. What you're holding in your hands is, for good or ill, the finished product. The second reason is where things start getting tricky. When you turn a corporate-sponsored forum into a writing group, you create certain expectations. When you tell people that they should help the author, you set the stage for people to feel slighted and even offended when their offers of assistence seem to be spurned. Some folk personalize this "rejection," making a quick leap from "the author didn't take my suggestion" to "the authors and WotC don't care about the readers!!" Consider this quote from a post above: By removing the novels forum, we are being shown that our voices mean nothing. We are being shown that instead of trying to fix the problem through the criticism of the fans, it is better to just bury it and smother the voices of those who have identified the problem. Regardless of the real reason behind the decision, whether it's based on money or the voice of the fans, the message being sent is clear. No one at WotC wants to hear our voices. They're fed up. They'd rather bury the problem rather than take our opinions to heart. We didn't post negative comments about RAS or Denning because we hate the man, we posted such comments because the book could have been better, and we hoped that our voices would make the next book better (obviously a foolish thought). Now we know how important our voices are. I could have quoted other posts that express similar sentiments, but this was the most clearly stated. It seems clear that readers assume the Novels Forum existed so that the readers could participate in the process of writing the books. That's why suggestions about posting reviews at other forums are brushed off as insignificant, that's why many people feel that they have lost their voice. Yes, reviews can be posted in many places online, but where else on the web can you be a part of an interactive process? This is what posters have come to expect. That is what they have been TOLD to expect. Disclaimers pointing out that suggestions are "optional" do not seem to diminish this expectation. Is this a reasonable expectation? Well, yes and no. Authors read comments and critiques and learn from them what they can. Sometimes it's a matter of improving the actual writing, sometimes it's simply helpful in learning more about your audience's tastes, preferences, and expectations. In this, yes, reader reviews can be enlightening and helpful. But there are many, many readers who believe they are not being heard unless the books are tailored to their specific tastes, requests, and demands. A fellow writer once related an incident that occured in a chat room. One reader expressed objections about a books that were fundamental to the story and characterizations, the writer's style and sensibilities. It was clear that the book simply wasn't right for that particular reader. The writer thanked the reader for his input then wished him well in finding books more to his taste. What more could be said? But the reader became highly offended: "Don't you value your fans' opinions?" Of course authors do. But it's impossible to ACT upon all of them, especially since almost all of these opinions contradict other readers' opinions. Even if writers took opinion polls and based character development and plot decisions on these polls (a frightening thought...) there would be some people who would take it personally that THEIR opinions were not acted upon. Part of that response is simple human nature -- people tend to be egocentric. Some more than others. But it also says something about the nature of the internet, and how that has changed reader expections. The internet is an interactive experience. Most websites include opinion polls, contests, and other devices to encourage visitor participation. Publisher, fan-sponsored, and author sites are no different. Because of the internet, readers can now email authors and get a brief response in a matter of days. (Write a snail mail letter to an author c/o the publisher, and the author isn't likely to see it for several months...) We can attend live chats, participate in discussions on forums and mailing lists. It's inevitable that readers will feel more a part of the writing process than ever before, especially in shared worlds and continuing-character series. All over the web, it's clear that readers feel their voices are and should be part of the writing process. I'm certainly not claiming that the WotC forums are unique. But in setting a "writing group" tone, by openly inviting readers to participate in the process, we have dialed up readers' expectation level concerning the importance of individual participation beyond anything that any author or any publisher could reasonably deliver. I hope no one assumes that I'm trying to assign "blame" for the forum's demise to online administrator or moderators. There's too much of that going around: the authors are too thin-skinned, or the authors suffer from a collective case of adult ADHD and are thus overly distracted by message boards and other bright, shiny objects; the readers' posts are too negative; the publisher is not interested in their readers' opinions and don't care about selling books. :confused: To all of which I say, "Piffle." (No, that wasn't my first or best rejoinder, but there's a CoD in place here...) Internet communication is a complex and tricky thing, and there are many, many reasons why things go wrong. I think the WotC staff had good intentions and truly tried to create a more positive interaction, and I will readily agree that things have improved from the not-too-distant days when message board cyberstalkers were common. WotC and the online moderators have made inroads into solving several problems, and they have attempted to address others. Just as a single post can evolve into a flame war that has little relation to the original subject, so can an online policy have unforseen results. It my opinion that the stated policy fostered certain online expectations that could not be met. That's my point. That's the whole thing. No need for anyone to take offense, or to make it anything more than it is. In a nutshell, I think a big part of the problem was that we were all trying for an interactive forum, but did not anticipate what "interactive" would mean to many participants.
Another Gnome 01-26-04, 01:04 PM	Ms. Cunningham, were I a dwarf, it would do me great honor to say it would be easy to mistake you for one us if only you had a beard.
RoaP 01-26-04, 01:12 PM	I certainly never expected an author to change their work (or even style, future plans, etc.) just because of little old me. For me the best part of an interactive forum (as I stated before) was asking a question like "Why would one choose a name like Ebeneezer?" and then getting a great response back from the author. Or sometimes even a nice, well-educated guess from a fellow reader. But I can see where you are coming from Ms. Cunningham. And I will have to say that if closing the forum helps authors feel less tied to public opinion, and therefore more confident in the idea that the only public they really have to answer to is their own creative muse, then so be it. That, in my eyes is a good thing. the reason we started reading your (plural all FR authors) works in the first place is because we enjoyed something that came out of nothing but your own ideas and inspirations. I liken it to a college professor with tenure. Its best to foster academic freedom, so ideas don't get squashed for political reasons. And the same with all you fine authors. We don't want to squish your amazing imaginations with our criticism. So if the Forum had the feel of a writing club, then I guess its best to start over. Another quality (if I may continue my analogy of the academic world) though is freedom of speech and open discourse, even by the students (i.e. readers). And thats what we feel we will miss. Like I say if nothing else, I will particularly miss just getting my questions answered by the very authors. But maybe you will all keep us informed at Candlekeep? (Here is hoping so).
ElaineCunningham 01-26-04, 01:24 PM	Originally posted by Another Gnome Ms. Cunningham, were I a dwarf, it would do me great honor to say it would be easy to mistake you for one us if only you had a beard. Thank you. The older I get, the more in common I seem to have with dwarves. Responses get shorter, except for diatribes, which are longer. Everyone is started to look too young. (I had surgery last week, and upon meeting my surgeon I had to bite my tongue to keep from blurting out, "Holy crap! It's freaking Doogie Houser!") I've come to appreciate dwarven logic as much as elven poetry. Dancing in the moonlight no longer seems advisable, much less appealing. My thinking these days runs along the lines of, Swords are pretty, but shovels are more practical: all you need is one tool to whack an intruder over the head AND bury him -- home defense and flower bed fertilization, in one handy step. In summary, I might not have the beard, but I've got the attitude, the waistline, and the work schedule. Speaking of which, gotta go -- got ten more pages to chip out of the solid rock of possibility before my work day's over.
Alisttair 01-26-04, 01:28 PM	I find it ridiculous having the boards taken away. Having to go to various other websites to talk about novels isn't very good. We're being forced to run around all over the web from author site to author site to read about their novels. The novel board here was better because it was a "one stop shop" sort of place, on the official site. One place where you could discuss only FR novels and sometimes be lucky enough to have author input (and once again one stop shop for all authors). I also feel that their budget certainly cannot be close to a problem. With the costs of the books being so high and the version 3.5 scam, im sure Wizards aren't behind in the dollar$$. I don't enjoy the fact taht we aren't allowed to discuss novels in any way shape or form on the general board unless it's merely a minor reference point for Drow or some such thing. It makes the FR boards feel even less like FR boards because everyone knows that half of the Forgotten Realms is it's realm of novels. Could this be a way to increase the corporate peeps salary by 10$/year? Well it sounds absurd but you never know. WHo knows what "really" goes through the minds of those in charge. The novel boards were usefull. I would come on these boards and go back and forth through the general board and the novel board to read as much input from everyone on the various things of the Forgotten Realms. Looks like half my fun was taken away, as well as half my extra FR lore. Tis' a sad day indeed :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad:
ElaineCunningham 01-26-04, 02:08 PM	Originally posted by RoaP So if the Forum had the feel of a writing club, then I guess its best to start over. Roap, I wasn't suggesting that the "writers' group" was the only type of interaction happening, or even the dominant type. It was merely one facet, and I don't think it was a facet large enough to be responsible for the board's closing. It's one dynamic that I found interesting. There were a lot of other things going on in the Novels Forum: book recommendations and reviews, discussions about lore, a chance to ask questions about the books and get an answer from the author or editor or long-term readers. There were threads that dealt with tough issues, such as gay characters in the Realms, with an amazing minimum of flaming. There were just-for-fun threads that involved interactive storytelling or free association. There was a support group for MoP applicants. There were several threads addressing a variety of questions from aspiring authors. For sheer oddity, there was even a limerick tutorial. Of course, there were also the eye-rolling cynicists, the snipers, the trolls. You couldn't characterize the board by one type of interaction, much less one type of poster. I think that's one reason why many people were so surprised by the decision to close the board. Problems? Sure. But it's hard to point to a single factor and say, "This was why." You asked about the Candlekeep forum. What with one thing and another, I haven't been online much, and at this time I'm not looking for a new forum. I don't think authors should ignore the internet -- I just haven't figured out what to do next. Here's my current plabn: I'm going to rebuild my website in March, resume the monthly newsletter in April, and consider what other promotional and interactive activites to try. Anyone who's interested in hearing about developments along those lines, drop me an email and I'll add your address to the email newsletter list.
daryldens 01-27-04, 09:14 PM	I think this is sad news. I relied on the message boards for updates on novel releases, peoples thoughts, filling in background information, etc. I have a pretty complete collection of all Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance and D&D novels, and I always purchase the new ones when they are released. I don't always read them all due to time constraints, but felt up to date from the info provided on the message boards. Thats gone now, and I don't quite know how it will affect my purchasing of further novels. I know I'll always purchase Salvatore and Weis/Hickman books, but I'm not so sure about the others now. I feel that Wizards has made it clear they are not interested in supporting the novels beyond the reading experience and that bothers me. Especially by having such stringent restriction about no novel posts on the regular Forgotten Realms boards. I guess the best way for me to describe it would be that there was a certain synergy that existed for me by reading the novels and the message boards. Both parts combined to increase my enjoyment. That experience has now been diminished. I know there are other sites out there like Candlekeep, but its not the same for me. I should be able to go to the Wizards boards where the worlds are discussed and the other Role playing products. I don't want to have to chase down different sites for the Realms and Dragonlance and Greyhawk, etc. My feeling is that if Wizards doesn't want to supply message boards for their novels (which is certainly their right), then they really don't care about my enjoyment of their books after my purchase. If they just removed the novel boards, but allowed you to discuss the novels in the other Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance message boards I wouldn't like it, but I would tolerate it and know I'd just have to look harder for the information within the many posts. But the restrictions of even posting about the novels really tells me that they don't care and they don't want any negative comments or criticism. I think it unintentionally sends a message of "Just read our books and be happy". I'm sure thats probably not their intent, but thats how it comes across to me. I don't see how the removal of these boards can not negatively impact sales for those like me whose enjoyment of the books was increased by the message boards, or people who were unsure of making a purchase decided to pick it up based on someones positive post. Oh well. Good luck to Wizards and I hope they revisit this decision at a later date after the dust settles to see if the removal of the boards may have some unanticipated negative results on sales.
stevem65 01-27-04, 09:37 PM	I am very disappointed with WotC. I haven't played D&D in years but I would buy the occassional novel based upon what certain posters had to say about it and a certain nostalgia from my early youth. Please note, my buying decision was based upon what *posters*, i.e. fellow readers, had to say about the novels. Some opinions I learned to respect, others reject. As a practical matter, this means the amount of money I spend of FR novels will decrease. Without a reader's opinion (or an established author) whom I've grown to rely on, I won't purchase the novel. This means that certain novels will go unpurchased. I don't have time enough to browse the book section for hours without end. I certainly don't trust a corporation, whether it be Ford Motor or WotC, to accurately describe their product. And for the record, the quality of WotC publishing has historically been widely uneven. Recently this has improved but it is still not stellar. Dave Gross (Black Wolf, Lord of Stormweather), Edward Bolme, Elaine Cunningham (Mage Hound series), Lisa Smedman (Extinction), Richard Baker and the other authors of the War of the Spider Queen series have been consistently excellent, both in quality in writing and storyline. Other authors have been less consistent. R.A. Salvatore writes well, but is writing juveniles. I don't believe his characters are adults at all. Troy Denning takes a good story idea (The Sorceror, etc..) and makes it painful to read. The recent Greyhawk D&D novels are atrociously bad. Elimination of the message board will only hurt WotC. While I'll stick with tried and true authors (go Gross and Co.!), I won't speculate on the quality of new authors. I won't now have the opportunity to give old authors whom I have not enjoyed in the past a chance based upon a positive review from a trusted source. If WotC decision was based upon "negativity" of certain posts, I suggest that it grow a thicker skin. The business world is a tough place and tuning out the customer is not likely to make it any easier. Especially as theat customer base ages (as I have)and their quality expectations, both in storyline and writing ability, increase. Steve Moss
WizO_BigSister 01-28-04, 12:07 AM	Originally posted by ElaineCunningham All of the above is clearly well-meaning, but it's my observation that such rules helped set a tone for the board that is not consistent with the policy makers' stated intent. Sorry but I am a little confused. Could you please clear something up for me ... do you mean the policy makers stated intent * at the time the FR Novels Forum as first created by the WizO team (and not by the book department) * at the time the forums were closed The explanations of the CoC that were posted on the Novels Forum were seen and cleared by the senior members of the WizO team. It was my genuine understanding that not only did they accurately reflect the CoC, but also the policy wrt the aim of the Novels forum.
BlackAvarim 01-28-04, 01:44 AM	Well.. until the minis came out.. the Novels board was my favored lurk zone.. and in my time I offered my crtitiques while at the same time attempting to praise what I did like about any author whose work I discussed. It was the Novel Forum where I first heard about the Maiden of Pain chance to submit work.. I would never have known to take part in it otherwise.. (Never did get my rejection letter for that either.. bummer.. Ah well.. Solace and Wyrd remain trapped solely for my own imagination.) It was in the novel section that I got to enjoy the thoughtful insights of the authors.. even if I disagree'd or disliked their particular works.. it did not really matter to me.. because they were people celebrating what they loved.. and I admire that at least. I gave my honest opinions.. and I am sure I was more often wrong than right.. Anyways.. thanks for the most enjoyable forum I have ever read.. I'll miss it. If it ever resurfaces I'll wander back.. but I doubt one will find me tracking down multiple sites.. never say never though.
Selgaunt 01-28-04, 01:59 PM	screw this place, i'm leaving!!!:mad: :censored: :thumbsdow
About Yea High 01-28-04, 03:37 PM	Well, being a MoPer, I'll certainly miss the novels board. But I have the feeling it will soon be business as usual (sans the rampant Salvatore bashing) over here. Though to say "No reviews or critiques" is rather bizarre. Might as well say "Do not discuss novels", because every post regarding a novel is going to have an opinion. It would be more accurate to say, "We will no longer tolerate unreasonable negativity"... with moderator carte blanche on what unreasonable exactly means. But I don't think bringing up a book and stating whether you like it or not is going to get your post pulled. Most of the people who come to these message boards are fans who like the product. ... Or, I could be wrong. Either/or. Yea
WotC_Mel 01-28-04, 03:50 PM	I am going to make one final statement about this mess and then I am closing this thread. Why? Because the full scope of opinions has been expressed about the books dept decision, and now that some people have decided to infer that the forum was closed due to some shortcoming of moderation is simply BS. I won't have BigSister sit here and have to swallow that inference when she, above anyone other person on these boards, has taken enough behind the scenes guff to make the Buddah scream. Things she has never publically mentioned due to her sense of professionalism and her honoring her NDA. Originally posted by ElaineCunningham it's my observation that such rules helped set a tone for the board that is not consistent with the policy makers' stated intent. Since I, and the Online Media dept. I work for, are the policy makers for the website and its community, I can say that this is not the case. The moderation of this forum was consistant with the overall policy and goals for the site. To be clear, the community elements of this site--even as a corporate website that intends to promote its merchandise--has to date always understood that having message boards open to the public meant having a space available for debate. And the full spectrum of opinions implied by the word debate. Moderators are tasked with keeping that debate civil and making sure there are no ad hominem attacks. But not to censure opinion, negative or otherwise. I hope that I do not work this job long enough to see that mandate change. In a nutshell, I think a big part of the problem was that we were all trying for an interactive forum, but did not anticipate what "interactive" would mean to many participants. I will agree with you there, Elaine. Not everyone did or does get what message boards are about. To request that negative opinions about Wizards products not be allowed on this site is anathema to community. It demands that a forum become a uselessly over-bright commercial filled with satisfied testimonials rather than provoking dialogue of real feelings. And a useless forum is tanamount to not having a forum at all. The Books department understood that, and that is why they decided to not continue novel forums here. The routes of expressing further feelings over this issue has been explained--please use them. Futher discussion on the topic will be closed. Melanie Creel Community Manager