Odd resemblance [Archive] - Wizards Community

Odd resemblance [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
EmeraldFox
09-12-04, 03:39 PM The more I experience FR, the more I see the odd resemblances to Tolkien. This trend is present in every fantasy setting, but of all fantasy settings that I have experienced, FR seems to be less original in their imitations.
Things like...
Evereska - Rivendell
Elminster - Gandalf
Eltargrim - Feanor
Evermeet - Valinor
and one of the most obvious ones...
Beregost - Belegost

Am I crazy? Am I rambling again? My DM dismisses my claims as so...
warlockco
09-12-04, 05:23 PM People will always try to compare anything else to Tolkien. He is just that established in the Fantasy genre.

As to Elminster = Gandalf, in the old days, El was pretty much a dead ringer for Gandalf, but now with his makeover, the only thing he has in common with Gandalf anymore is that he carries a sword and smokes a pipe. Seems El has lost his floppy hat somewhere.

Thing is no matter what, you will always find something that resembles something from something else. There is no way to avoid it for the most part. I mean look at our entertainment on the TV and at the movies. They are all for the most part the same story just redone with a new twist.
Yamo
09-12-04, 05:27 PM Elminster - Gandalf

:weep:

I would say that Tolkien is spinning in his grave, but I'm pretty sure that his reanimated corpse has actually clawed its way to the surface and is on its way to your house to break your knees with a lead pipe for that one. ;)
EmeraldFox
09-12-04, 06:39 PM People will always try to compare anything else to Tolkien. He is just that established in the Fantasy genre.

As to Elminster = Gandalf, in the old days, El was pretty much a dead ringer for Gandalf, but now with his makeover, the only thing he has in common with Gandalf anymore is that he carries a sword and smokes a pipe. Seems El has lost his floppy hat somewhere.

Thing is no matter what, you will always find something that resembles something from something else. There is no way to avoid it for the most part. I mean look at our entertainment on the TV and at the movies. They are all for the most part the same story just redone with a new twist.
Ahhhh, I see. You think I'm crazy too.

I would say that Tolkien is spinning in his grave, but I'm pretty sure that his reanimated corpse has actually clawed its way to the surface and is on its way to your house to break your knees with a lead pipe for that one.
Huh? Why?
chme
09-12-04, 07:09 PM The more I experience FR, the more I see the odd resemblances to Tolkien. This trend is present in every fantasy setting, but of all fantasy settings that I have experienced, FR seems to be less original in their imitations.
Things like...
Evereska - Rivendell
Elminster - Gandalf
Eltargrim - Feanor
Evermeet - Valinor
and one of the most obvious ones...
Beregost - Belegost

Am I crazy? Am I rambling again? My DM dismisses my claims as so...

The concept of elven/faery havens, of old wandering mages and of a faery/elven island is by no means Tolkien's inventions. You could easily make a similar list of Middle Earth names to the left and names from british, germanic and nordic folklore/tales/poems to the right. It's just the way things work - you'd be be very hard pressed to find anything that's absolutely original in anything (and if you did it would most likely be incomprehensible to the human mind, as recognition of some sort is crucial for understanding). And the fantasy genre on the whole is not exactly famous for its innovations :).

So no, I don't think you're crazy, but I do think you're kind of holding up a piece of chewing gum that stuck to your boot and saying 'Aha! Someone dropped this! I'm on to him!' :).
EmeraldFox
09-12-04, 07:15 PM I wasn't talking about cultural myths and legends from which all fantasy sprouts from. I was talking about the fantasy literature of the 20th and 21st century.
chme
09-12-04, 07:20 PM I wasn't talking about cultural myths and legends from which all fantasy sprouts from. I was talking about the fantasy literature of the 20th and 21st century.

There are other examples then, like Lord Dunsany's 'The king of Elfland's daughter' for instance. My point would be that Forgotten Realms isn't necessarily just a Tolkien copy, but a great piece of work with many influences, just like Middle Earth.
warlockco
09-12-04, 09:54 PM Quote:
Originally Posted by warlockco

I would say that Tolkien is spinning in his grave, but I'm pretty sure that his reanimated corpse has actually clawed its way to the surface and is on its way to your house to break your knees with a lead pipe for that one.

Huh? Why?

If your gonna quote, quote properly, I didn't post that it was posted by Yamo.
warlockco
09-12-04, 09:57 PM There are other examples then, like Lord Dunsany's 'The king of Elfland's daughter' for instance. My point would be that Forgotten Realms isn't necessarily just a Tolkien copy, but a great piece of work with many influences, just like Middle Earth.
:ayyyy!:

Also, you can't just deal with "modern" literature for this. Since, modern literature is based on literature of the past.
Another Gnome
09-13-04, 01:51 AM There are more or less obvious similarities in abundance, and LotR predates the Realms, so it's only natural to draw the conclusion that FR is a Middle-earth clone.

However, I wouldn't take it any further than that. While I don't see any reason to even begin to deny the superficial similarities, the core philosophy and the overall feel of the two worlds (as regards to their most actively used parts: the Third Age of Middle-earth and the 3rd Edition of the Realms) couldn't be more different.

That is, while Tolkien's Elvish for example was influenced by Finnish and the pronunciation is nearly spot on the same, you don't see Finns complaining how LotR stole the language. Instead, I for one take it as something to be proud of, and I apply the same philosophy to the Realms - if there's something that seems to be straight from Tolkien, all the better!
druid berrymore
09-13-04, 01:56 AM What about Waymoot-Waymoot?
chme
09-13-04, 02:29 AM There are more or less obvious similarities in abundance, and LotR predates the Realms, so it's only natural to draw the conclusion that FR is a Middle-earth clone.

Ah, but if, by your reasoning, one can show that Middle-Earth is a 'clone' of earlier material, would that make Forgotten Realms a clone of the clone or a clone of what cloned the other clone? :)

I think the term 'clone' when it comes to fantasy settings is best reserved for the more horried examples of plagiarizing, lest you call every setting a clone and make the term totally pointless. If you wanna point at similarities, you can use something less pejorative, like 'intertext' instead, and get a whole lot more interesting discussion.

And @ berrymore: I hope you're kidding :). Waymoot is so common all over the world, you might as well point at 'High Road'.
Shemeska the Marauder
09-13-04, 03:45 AM There are other examples then, like Lord Dunsany's 'The king of Elfland's daughter' for instance. My point would be that Forgotten Realms isn't necessarily just a Tolkien copy, but a great piece of work with many influences, just like Middle Earth.

Ok, you're officially my coolest person for this week for having mentioned Alfred Lord Dunsany in a post. :bow:
Another Gnome
09-13-04, 04:08 AM chme:

Ah, but if, by your reasoning, one can show that Middle-Earth is a 'clone' of earlier material, would that make Forgotten Realms a clone of the clone or a clone of what cloned the other clone?

To answer the question, both would be clones of the original. However...

-- lest you call every setting a clone and make the term totally pointless.

...why would I not want to make it pointless?

If you wanna point at similarities, you can use something less pejorative, like 'intertext' instead, and get a whole lot more interesting discussion.

I did use a different term, in this case "superficial similarity" precisely to dismiss the pointless accusations (not necessarily referring to this thread) of FR being a Middle-earth clone. They look similar on glance, that's where the similarity ends, and if one still reminds of the other, it only proves that both worlds have succeeded in turning ink on paper into images in the reader's mind. :)
BrianCritchley
09-13-04, 06:03 PM for one thing FR lacks the near post apycoyptic feel of middle earth dureing the third age
Mr. Domino
09-13-04, 08:49 PM for one thing FR lacks the near post apycoyptic feel of middle earth dureing the third age

True, but they both have an Aglarond. ;)
EmeraldFox
09-13-04, 09:51 PM I never said that FR was a Middle Earth clone. The atmosphere is completely different. Also, as I said in the first post, I am quite aware how every fantasy setting borrows from what Tolkien wrote. What I am saying is that FR is less original in its borrowing from Tolkien.
As for the legends and myths from where all fantasy sprouted from, the modern fantasy of which I speak diverges from that. A specific example are the fey peoples. Before the 20th century authors, elves and goblins in literature were simple forest spirits, in the same vein as fairies. However, now elves are a nation-building peoples. Goblins of the Unseelie Court are no longer fairies but short, ugly monsters. The orc was actually a sea-monster in pre-20th century literature. This is the fantasy medium that I was talking about. Not the myths of ancient times.
Alisttair
09-13-04, 10:31 PM Elminster DOES = Gandalf. Why? Here's why.

Gandalf the grey had the pointy hat and pipe with the beard and his staff.
The original 1E/2E Elminster had all that too.

Gandalf the white loses the pointy hat and has his beard all fixed up and fights with a sword (as well as his staff).
The 3E Elminster loses the pointy hat too, trimmed his beard and lo and behold....he has a sword.

I'm not saying this is all deliberate though, merely pointing out the fact that they ARE very much alike.

:teach:
:king:
chme
09-14-04, 03:00 AM I never said that FR was a Middle Earth clone. The atmosphere is completely different. Also, as I said in the first post, I am quite aware how every fantasy setting borrows from what Tolkien wrote. What I am saying is that FR is less original in its borrowing from Tolkien.
As for the legends and myths from where all fantasy sprouted from, the modern fantasy of which I speak diverges from that. A specific example are the fey peoples. Before the 20th century authors, elves and goblins in literature were simple forest spirits, in the same vein as fairies. However, now elves are a nation-building peoples. Goblins of the Unseelie Court are no longer fairies but short, ugly monsters. The orc was actually a sea-monster in pre-20th century literature. This is the fantasy medium that I was talking about. Not the myths of ancient times.

"Shaking off his attackers like small, annoying drops of water, Emeraldfox sprinted towards the other end of the room again. No matter what they screamed at him, no matter how many came to try and hold him back, he would never stop kicking in that open door! Never!"

:fight!:
Another Gnome
09-14-04, 03:29 AM Elminster DOES = Gandalf. Why? Here's why.

Gandalf the grey had the pointy hat and pipe with the beard and his staff.
The original 1E/2E Elminster had all that too.

Gandalf the white loses the pointy hat and has his beard all fixed up and fights with a sword (as well as his staff).
The 3E Elminster loses the pointy hat too, trimmed his beard and lo and behold....he has a sword.

Elminster lost his hat, cut his beard, and picked up a sword because 3E came out and there was no more stereotypical portraying of wizards as staff-wielding bearded geezers in a pointy hat. Sure enough, Gandalf did it first, but while it was always in the book, I bet few people really noticed it before the movie came out - and the 3E philosophy and art style was upgraded well before the movie's release.

I'm not saying this is all deliberate though, merely pointing out the fact that they ARE very much alike.

Yes, but sometimes a coincidence is just a coincidence. :)
WizO_BigSister
09-14-04, 07:04 AM I never said that FR was a Middle Earth clone. The atmosphere is completely different. Also, as I said in the first post, I am quite aware how every fantasy setting borrows from what Tolkien wrote. What I am saying is that FR is less original in its borrowing from Tolkien.
As for the legends and myths from where all fantasy sprouted from, the modern fantasy of which I speak diverges from that. A specific example are the fey peoples. Before the 20th century authors, elves and goblins in literature were simple forest spirits, in the same vein as fairies. However, now elves are a nation-building peoples. Goblins of the Unseelie Court are no longer fairies but short, ugly monsters. The orc was actually a sea-monster in pre-20th century literature. This is the fantasy medium that I was talking about. Not the myths of ancient times.

Tolkien drew heavily on Northern European myths and folk lore ... in which elves, goblins, trolls and other "fey folk" were not just simple forest spirits. Elves and fairies had there own kingdoms and complex societies. Shakespeare gives us a glimpse at this, as do many other writers. You can see more of this in those who wrote of King Arthur. This type of more complex fey society also features in a multitude of folk songs and oral traditions. Last but definitely not least books written for children talk of fairy kingdoms etc.

This tpe of myth is not from "ancient times" ... there are people who are still alive who sing these songs, tell these stories or take part in the many folk rituals that celebrate these legends! My husband buried corn dollies in the fields with his grandfather. I have spoken with an Irishman who left bowls of milk out for the "little folk".
Crust
09-14-04, 11:41 AM The classic "wise old wizard" archetype exists throughout literature. Merlin, Gandalf, Obi-Wan, Elminster, etc. I doubt anyone sought to stimulate this archetype. It just happens, and it's up to the reader to make those connections. We see this archetype trend in objects too, whether it be a paladin's sword, a samurai's katana, or a jedi's light saber. They are all mutually exclusive of one another, but they still represent the same thing or idea.

Sure, Tolkien would roll over in his grave at the mention of his work resembling anything that came before it. He never intended to create allegory in his writing. Be that as it may, we see it anyway, whether he meant to put it there or not.
chme
09-14-04, 12:13 PM Sure, Tolkien would roll over in his grave at the mention of his work resembling anything that came before it. He never intended to create allegory in his writing.

Allegory is not the same thing as intertextuality. I didn't know the man, but I think it's pretty safe to say he is lying very still when people see how his work relates to older literature.
druid berrymore
09-14-04, 01:49 PM And @ berrymore: I hope you're kidding :). Waymoot is so common all over the world, you might as well point at 'High Road'.
Yeah, sorry. I guess my sarcasm was lost. What really bothers me more than copying other stories, is when authors copy 'real world' names. William the troll- The Hobbit, Thom-WoT, Marco Volo...AAAARRGHHH!!! They grate inside my head like nails on a chalkboard. It's like I'm in the world, and then all of a sudden I'm thrust back to reality for a second, and God knows I hate that. :)

On another note:
I think originality is overated. The authors who try to be 'original' end up with something that no one would want to read, because they have taken out all of the elements that make good fiction.
chme
09-14-04, 02:46 PM Yeah, sorry. I guess my sarcasm was lost. What really bothers me more than copying other stories, is when authors copy 'real world' names. William the troll- The Hobbit, Thom-WoT, Marco Volo...AAAARRGHHH!!! They grate inside my head like nails on a chalkboard. It's like I'm in the world, and then all of a sudden I'm thrust back to reality for a second, and God knows I hate that. :)

Wasn't lost - you just had me worried :).

I agree with you somewhat, although 'Marco Volo' just makes me grin :). However, being forced to all of a sudden understand the fiction as an artefact (the 'thrust back to reality') is a very interesting concept if used with moderation and finesse. To some reception theorists this is the very specific that separates the literary readings from non-literary readings. It breaks the automatic illusion-building and enables you to compare the perspectives from the fiction with those of real life, which lets you get more out of your reading than just a good time and a fond memory. I'm not saying this is something comfortable, something you would always want, or that 'Marco Volo' is a good example of it, but your nail-chalkboard image made me think of it :).

On another note:
I think originality is overated. The authors who try to be 'original' end up with something that no one would want to read, because they have taken out all of the elements that make good fiction.

Hehe, I agree. Good originality is often a clever use of something old.
boblastears
09-14-04, 03:23 PM What for me resemble more Tolkien in the FR is the elfs. They retreat to a special place in the west. They are divided in races that act and look so much as the ones discribed in the Silmallirion (I am almost sure that I write it wrong), I can't remenber the names of the races of Tolkin except for the Noldors, but we can make almost one by one analogy with the elven races.

It isn't at any a problem for me. As someone said alread we must have a few things that we recognize so we keep reading until we learn the "original" parts. And even loving the Tolkiens books I prefer to play in Faerun as here is more easier to use magic, we don't have to have a "divine blood" to use it or act as it isn't magic and is just the way thing are. Very nice to read and imagine, not so much to play wif you wanna be a wizard.
GothicDan
09-14-04, 05:05 PM FR is no more inspired by Tolkien's stuff than Tolkien's stuff is inspired by Norse mythology. ;)

I'll let you make of that what you may.
Land Outcast
09-14-04, 06:33 PM The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources.
Albert Einstein
GothicDan
09-14-04, 06:50 PM Albert Einstein has always been my hero. That quote is one of the reasons why. :D
WizO_BigSister
09-14-04, 09:22 PM What for me resemble more Tolkien in the FR is the elfs. They retreat to a special place in the west

Ummm ... have you ever heard of the Summer Country - the wonderful and enchanted land to the west of Europe where fey folk and elves return after their sojourn in the real world?

Tolkien never claimed to be totally original. The entire purpose of what he was doing was to create a written mythology for England. He deliberately wove aspects of Norse and Celtic mythology into it, as well as many of the legends passed down via oral tradition and song. Ye gods he even had a kind of Atlantis! Of course he knew about these references, and he knew about the classic archetypes and themes he used ... he was a professor of ancient North European language and literature after all! He would not be surprised to see similarities between his work and other modern fantasy - after all they all use the same sources as a starting point.
EmeraldFox
09-14-04, 09:26 PM Hehe, I agree. Good originality is often a clever use of something old.
Yeah I guess that's right. Fantasy would never sell if its nothing that they're familiar with.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
EmeraldFox 09-12-04, 03:39 PM	The more I experience FR, the more I see the odd resemblances to Tolkien. This trend is present in every fantasy setting, but of all fantasy settings that I have experienced, FR seems to be less original in their imitations. Things like... Evereska - Rivendell Elminster - Gandalf Eltargrim - Feanor Evermeet - Valinor and one of the most obvious ones... Beregost - Belegost Am I crazy? Am I rambling again? My DM dismisses my claims as so...
warlockco 09-12-04, 05:23 PM	People will always try to compare anything else to Tolkien. He is just that established in the Fantasy genre. As to Elminster = Gandalf, in the old days, El was pretty much a dead ringer for Gandalf, but now with his makeover, the only thing he has in common with Gandalf anymore is that he carries a sword and smokes a pipe. Seems El has lost his floppy hat somewhere. Thing is no matter what, you will always find something that resembles something from something else. There is no way to avoid it for the most part. I mean look at our entertainment on the TV and at the movies. They are all for the most part the same story just redone with a new twist.
Yamo 09-12-04, 05:27 PM	Elminster - Gandalf :weep: I would say that Tolkien is spinning in his grave, but I'm pretty sure that his reanimated corpse has actually clawed its way to the surface and is on its way to your house to break your knees with a lead pipe for that one. ;)
EmeraldFox 09-12-04, 06:39 PM	People will always try to compare anything else to Tolkien. He is just that established in the Fantasy genre. As to Elminster = Gandalf, in the old days, El was pretty much a dead ringer for Gandalf, but now with his makeover, the only thing he has in common with Gandalf anymore is that he carries a sword and smokes a pipe. Seems El has lost his floppy hat somewhere. Thing is no matter what, you will always find something that resembles something from something else. There is no way to avoid it for the most part. I mean look at our entertainment on the TV and at the movies. They are all for the most part the same story just redone with a new twist. Ahhhh, I see. You think I'm crazy too. I would say that Tolkien is spinning in his grave, but I'm pretty sure that his reanimated corpse has actually clawed its way to the surface and is on its way to your house to break your knees with a lead pipe for that one. Huh? Why?
chme 09-12-04, 07:09 PM	The more I experience FR, the more I see the odd resemblances to Tolkien. This trend is present in every fantasy setting, but of all fantasy settings that I have experienced, FR seems to be less original in their imitations. Things like... Evereska - Rivendell Elminster - Gandalf Eltargrim - Feanor Evermeet - Valinor and one of the most obvious ones... Beregost - Belegost Am I crazy? Am I rambling again? My DM dismisses my claims as so... The concept of elven/faery havens, of old wandering mages and of a faery/elven island is by no means Tolkien's inventions. You could easily make a similar list of Middle Earth names to the left and names from british, germanic and nordic folklore/tales/poems to the right. It's just the way things work - you'd be be very hard pressed to find anything that's absolutely original in anything (and if you did it would most likely be incomprehensible to the human mind, as recognition of some sort is crucial for understanding). And the fantasy genre on the whole is not exactly famous for its innovations :). So no, I don't think you're crazy, but I do think you're kind of holding up a piece of chewing gum that stuck to your boot and saying 'Aha! Someone dropped this! I'm on to him!' :).
EmeraldFox 09-12-04, 07:15 PM	I wasn't talking about cultural myths and legends from which all fantasy sprouts from. I was talking about the fantasy literature of the 20th and 21st century.
chme 09-12-04, 07:20 PM	I wasn't talking about cultural myths and legends from which all fantasy sprouts from. I was talking about the fantasy literature of the 20th and 21st century. There are other examples then, like Lord Dunsany's 'The king of Elfland's daughter' for instance. My point would be that Forgotten Realms isn't necessarily just a Tolkien copy, but a great piece of work with many influences, just like Middle Earth.
warlockco 09-12-04, 09:54 PM	Quote: Originally Posted by warlockco I would say that Tolkien is spinning in his grave, but I'm pretty sure that his reanimated corpse has actually clawed its way to the surface and is on its way to your house to break your knees with a lead pipe for that one. Huh? Why? If your gonna quote, quote properly, I didn't post that it was posted by Yamo.
warlockco 09-12-04, 09:57 PM	There are other examples then, like Lord Dunsany's 'The king of Elfland's daughter' for instance. My point would be that Forgotten Realms isn't necessarily just a Tolkien copy, but a great piece of work with many influences, just like Middle Earth. :ayyyy!: Also, you can't just deal with "modern" literature for this. Since, modern literature is based on literature of the past.
Another Gnome 09-13-04, 01:51 AM	There are more or less obvious similarities in abundance, and LotR predates the Realms, so it's only natural to draw the conclusion that FR is a Middle-earth clone. However, I wouldn't take it any further than that. While I don't see any reason to even begin to deny the superficial similarities, the core philosophy and the overall feel of the two worlds (as regards to their most actively used parts: the Third Age of Middle-earth and the 3rd Edition of the Realms) couldn't be more different. That is, while Tolkien's Elvish for example was influenced by Finnish and the pronunciation is nearly spot on the same, you don't see Finns complaining how LotR stole the language. Instead, I for one take it as something to be proud of, and I apply the same philosophy to the Realms - if there's something that seems to be straight from Tolkien, all the better!
druid berrymore 09-13-04, 01:56 AM	What about Waymoot-Waymoot?
chme 09-13-04, 02:29 AM	There are more or less obvious similarities in abundance, and LotR predates the Realms, so it's only natural to draw the conclusion that FR is a Middle-earth clone. Ah, but if, by your reasoning, one can show that Middle-Earth is a 'clone' of earlier material, would that make Forgotten Realms a clone of the clone or a clone of what cloned the other clone? :) I think the term 'clone' when it comes to fantasy settings is best reserved for the more horried examples of plagiarizing, lest you call every setting a clone and make the term totally pointless. If you wanna point at similarities, you can use something less pejorative, like 'intertext' instead, and get a whole lot more interesting discussion. And @ berrymore: I hope you're kidding :). Waymoot is so common all over the world, you might as well point at 'High Road'.
Shemeska the Marauder 09-13-04, 03:45 AM	There are other examples then, like Lord Dunsany's 'The king of Elfland's daughter' for instance. My point would be that Forgotten Realms isn't necessarily just a Tolkien copy, but a great piece of work with many influences, just like Middle Earth. Ok, you're officially my coolest person for this week for having mentioned Alfred Lord Dunsany in a post. :bow:
Another Gnome 09-13-04, 04:08 AM	chme: Ah, but if, by your reasoning, one can show that Middle-Earth is a 'clone' of earlier material, would that make Forgotten Realms a clone of the clone or a clone of what cloned the other clone? To answer the question, both would be clones of the original. However... -- lest you call every setting a clone and make the term totally pointless. ...why would I not want to make it pointless? If you wanna point at similarities, you can use something less pejorative, like 'intertext' instead, and get a whole lot more interesting discussion. I did use a different term, in this case "superficial similarity" precisely to dismiss the pointless accusations (not necessarily referring to this thread) of FR being a Middle-earth clone. They look similar on glance, that's where the similarity ends, and if one still reminds of the other, it only proves that both worlds have succeeded in turning ink on paper into images in the reader's mind. :)
BrianCritchley 09-13-04, 06:03 PM	for one thing FR lacks the near post apycoyptic feel of middle earth dureing the third age
Mr. Domino 09-13-04, 08:49 PM	for one thing FR lacks the near post apycoyptic feel of middle earth dureing the third age True, but they both have an Aglarond. ;)
EmeraldFox 09-13-04, 09:51 PM	I never said that FR was a Middle Earth clone. The atmosphere is completely different. Also, as I said in the first post, I am quite aware how every fantasy setting borrows from what Tolkien wrote. What I am saying is that FR is less original in its borrowing from Tolkien. As for the legends and myths from where all fantasy sprouted from, the modern fantasy of which I speak diverges from that. A specific example are the fey peoples. Before the 20th century authors, elves and goblins in literature were simple forest spirits, in the same vein as fairies. However, now elves are a nation-building peoples. Goblins of the Unseelie Court are no longer fairies but short, ugly monsters. The orc was actually a sea-monster in pre-20th century literature. This is the fantasy medium that I was talking about. Not the myths of ancient times.
Alisttair 09-13-04, 10:31 PM	Elminster DOES = Gandalf. Why? Here's why. Gandalf the grey had the pointy hat and pipe with the beard and his staff. The original 1E/2E Elminster had all that too. Gandalf the white loses the pointy hat and has his beard all fixed up and fights with a sword (as well as his staff). The 3E Elminster loses the pointy hat too, trimmed his beard and lo and behold....he has a sword. I'm not saying this is all deliberate though, merely pointing out the fact that they ARE very much alike. :teach: :king:
chme 09-14-04, 03:00 AM	I never said that FR was a Middle Earth clone. The atmosphere is completely different. Also, as I said in the first post, I am quite aware how every fantasy setting borrows from what Tolkien wrote. What I am saying is that FR is less original in its borrowing from Tolkien. As for the legends and myths from where all fantasy sprouted from, the modern fantasy of which I speak diverges from that. A specific example are the fey peoples. Before the 20th century authors, elves and goblins in literature were simple forest spirits, in the same vein as fairies. However, now elves are a nation-building peoples. Goblins of the Unseelie Court are no longer fairies but short, ugly monsters. The orc was actually a sea-monster in pre-20th century literature. This is the fantasy medium that I was talking about. Not the myths of ancient times. "Shaking off his attackers like small, annoying drops of water, Emeraldfox sprinted towards the other end of the room again. No matter what they screamed at him, no matter how many came to try and hold him back, he would never stop kicking in that open door! Never!" :fight!:
Another Gnome 09-14-04, 03:29 AM	Elminster DOES = Gandalf. Why? Here's why. Gandalf the grey had the pointy hat and pipe with the beard and his staff. The original 1E/2E Elminster had all that too. Gandalf the white loses the pointy hat and has his beard all fixed up and fights with a sword (as well as his staff). The 3E Elminster loses the pointy hat too, trimmed his beard and lo and behold....he has a sword. Elminster lost his hat, cut his beard, and picked up a sword because 3E came out and there was no more stereotypical portraying of wizards as staff-wielding bearded geezers in a pointy hat. Sure enough, Gandalf did it first, but while it was always in the book, I bet few people really noticed it before the movie came out - and the 3E philosophy and art style was upgraded well before the movie's release. I'm not saying this is all deliberate though, merely pointing out the fact that they ARE very much alike. Yes, but sometimes a coincidence is just a coincidence. :)
WizO_BigSister 09-14-04, 07:04 AM	I never said that FR was a Middle Earth clone. The atmosphere is completely different. Also, as I said in the first post, I am quite aware how every fantasy setting borrows from what Tolkien wrote. What I am saying is that FR is less original in its borrowing from Tolkien. As for the legends and myths from where all fantasy sprouted from, the modern fantasy of which I speak diverges from that. A specific example are the fey peoples. Before the 20th century authors, elves and goblins in literature were simple forest spirits, in the same vein as fairies. However, now elves are a nation-building peoples. Goblins of the Unseelie Court are no longer fairies but short, ugly monsters. The orc was actually a sea-monster in pre-20th century literature. This is the fantasy medium that I was talking about. Not the myths of ancient times. Tolkien drew heavily on Northern European myths and folk lore ... in which elves, goblins, trolls and other "fey folk" were not just simple forest spirits. Elves and fairies had there own kingdoms and complex societies. Shakespeare gives us a glimpse at this, as do many other writers. You can see more of this in those who wrote of King Arthur. This type of more complex fey society also features in a multitude of folk songs and oral traditions. Last but definitely not least books written for children talk of fairy kingdoms etc. This tpe of myth is not from "ancient times" ... there are people who are still alive who sing these songs, tell these stories or take part in the many folk rituals that celebrate these legends! My husband buried corn dollies in the fields with his grandfather. I have spoken with an Irishman who left bowls of milk out for the "little folk".
Crust 09-14-04, 11:41 AM	The classic "wise old wizard" archetype exists throughout literature. Merlin, Gandalf, Obi-Wan, Elminster, etc. I doubt anyone sought to stimulate this archetype. It just happens, and it's up to the reader to make those connections. We see this archetype trend in objects too, whether it be a paladin's sword, a samurai's katana, or a jedi's light saber. They are all mutually exclusive of one another, but they still represent the same thing or idea. Sure, Tolkien would roll over in his grave at the mention of his work resembling anything that came before it. He never intended to create allegory in his writing. Be that as it may, we see it anyway, whether he meant to put it there or not.
chme 09-14-04, 12:13 PM	Sure, Tolkien would roll over in his grave at the mention of his work resembling anything that came before it. He never intended to create allegory in his writing. Allegory is not the same thing as intertextuality. I didn't know the man, but I think it's pretty safe to say he is lying very still when people see how his work relates to older literature.
druid berrymore 09-14-04, 01:49 PM	And @ berrymore: I hope you're kidding :). Waymoot is so common all over the world, you might as well point at 'High Road'. Yeah, sorry. I guess my sarcasm was lost. What really bothers me more than copying other stories, is when authors copy 'real world' names. William the troll- The Hobbit, Thom-WoT, Marco Volo...AAAARRGHHH!!! They grate inside my head like nails on a chalkboard. It's like I'm in the world, and then all of a sudden I'm thrust back to reality for a second, and God knows I hate that. :) On another note: I think originality is overated. The authors who try to be 'original' end up with something that no one would want to read, because they have taken out all of the elements that make good fiction.
chme 09-14-04, 02:46 PM	Yeah, sorry. I guess my sarcasm was lost. What really bothers me more than copying other stories, is when authors copy 'real world' names. William the troll- The Hobbit, Thom-WoT, Marco Volo...AAAARRGHHH!!! They grate inside my head like nails on a chalkboard. It's like I'm in the world, and then all of a sudden I'm thrust back to reality for a second, and God knows I hate that. :) Wasn't lost - you just had me worried :). I agree with you somewhat, although 'Marco Volo' just makes me grin :). However, being forced to all of a sudden understand the fiction as an artefact (the 'thrust back to reality') is a very interesting concept if used with moderation and finesse. To some reception theorists this is the very specific that separates the literary readings from non-literary readings. It breaks the automatic illusion-building and enables you to compare the perspectives from the fiction with those of real life, which lets you get more out of your reading than just a good time and a fond memory. I'm not saying this is something comfortable, something you would always want, or that 'Marco Volo' is a good example of it, but your nail-chalkboard image made me think of it :). On another note: I think originality is overated. The authors who try to be 'original' end up with something that no one would want to read, because they have taken out all of the elements that make good fiction. Hehe, I agree. Good originality is often a clever use of something old.
boblastears 09-14-04, 03:23 PM	What for me resemble more Tolkien in the FR is the elfs. They retreat to a special place in the west. They are divided in races that act and look so much as the ones discribed in the Silmallirion (I am almost sure that I write it wrong), I can't remenber the names of the races of Tolkin except for the Noldors, but we can make almost one by one analogy with the elven races. It isn't at any a problem for me. As someone said alread we must have a few things that we recognize so we keep reading until we learn the "original" parts. And even loving the Tolkiens books I prefer to play in Faerun as here is more easier to use magic, we don't have to have a "divine blood" to use it or act as it isn't magic and is just the way thing are. Very nice to read and imagine, not so much to play wif you wanna be a wizard.
GothicDan 09-14-04, 05:05 PM	FR is no more inspired by Tolkien's stuff than Tolkien's stuff is inspired by Norse mythology. ;) I'll let you make of that what you may.
Land Outcast 09-14-04, 06:33 PM	The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. Albert Einstein
GothicDan 09-14-04, 06:50 PM	Albert Einstein has always been my hero. That quote is one of the reasons why. :D
WizO_BigSister 09-14-04, 09:22 PM	What for me resemble more Tolkien in the FR is the elfs. They retreat to a special place in the west Ummm ... have you ever heard of the Summer Country - the wonderful and enchanted land to the west of Europe where fey folk and elves return after their sojourn in the real world? Tolkien never claimed to be totally original. The entire purpose of what he was doing was to create a written mythology for England. He deliberately wove aspects of Norse and Celtic mythology into it, as well as many of the legends passed down via oral tradition and song. Ye gods he even had a kind of Atlantis! Of course he knew about these references, and he knew about the classic archetypes and themes he used ... he was a professor of ancient North European language and literature after all! He would not be surprised to see similarities between his work and other modern fantasy - after all they all use the same sources as a starting point.
EmeraldFox 09-14-04, 09:26 PM	Hehe, I agree. Good originality is often a clever use of something old. Yeah I guess that's right. Fantasy would never sell if its nothing that they're familiar with.