Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheBlackLotus 10-19-03, 05:00 AM	Hi everyone, I just got home from gaming with my group, its 1:30am, and I just witnessed something, that will never leave my memory for the rest of my gaming life, that I want to share with all of you. I cant stop laughing. In a nuttshell,... We have been going through this particular campaign for the better part of 5 years now. And after what seems like millions of adventures, our charecters, * 16th lvl rogue Haffling * 11th lvl rogue Haffling * 9th lvl wizard Gnome * 4th lvl fighter/5th lvl cleric Dwarf * 10th lvl fighter Human * 10th lvl fighter Elf Finally tracked down the 2 "big bad evil masterminds" behind the 5 years of horror, and destruction and pain and agony that we have been having to go through. 1 lvl 25 balor (suped up to all hell by the DM) 1 lvl 21 blackguard of evil *****en'ness. 1 lvl 20 warrior Half dragon/duerger. (There is no way in friggin hell we could live against these 3, they would kill us within 3 rounds, the balor alone would destroy us) On the way through the castle, we had an encounter with 2 huge earth elementals that were being used as guardians by the blackguard as 2 of the guardians of his keep, after a few rounds of combat, we ended up freeing them by accident, they quickly turned, and ran, we had no idea why. We eventually get up to where we are expecting to have our end-all, be-all, 5 year climactic encounter,... only to see the balor locked in mortal combat with 2 huge earth elementals that were ****** as all hell at it for trapping them their in the keep. Entering the huge hall from the far side, came in the blackguard and half dragon/ half duerger, "oooooooooh crap" we thought, we're gunna die. 1 fighter and both rogues ran across the room to engage the 2 people that just entered, the mage (who is a horrid rollplayer) stood there scared and did nothing. When they got to the half dragon and blackguard (we expected them to die instantly), one rogue at a full sprint dove at his legs, knocking him prone, the other haffling started kicking at his hand until he let go of his sword, then kicked it away while the 21st lvl blackgaurd was prone on the ground. As he tried getting up, haffling #1 did a super high skill check and started unbuckling the blackguards breastplate whiel he was trying to get up. The blackguard was trying to throw the haffling off of his back, and get up from the ground, he managed to get to one knee while still managing to try to throw Haffling #1 off of his back, and punch Haffling #2, but missed. At the same time that he missed, Haffling #1 got his breastplate unbuckled, and right as the blackguard was standing up from a kneeling position, his breastplate swung forward and through him off balance, he failed his check and fell back onto the floor, prone, with Haffling #1 starting to stab him in the back, Haffling #2 ran up and started Slicing at the straps on the blackguards greaves. The blackguard who was prone on the ground, now having his breastplate taken off, and having a haffling tearing his pants off, tried to get up off of the ground again, but with armor half hanging on him, a haffling giving the piggy back ride from hell, and Haffling #2 pulling at his legs, he falls to the ground again, rolls over onto his back, and has his greaves pulled down around his legs just as he dies, half naked, with no weapons, and having not done a single thing in combat. The half dragon who figuring that his blackguard friend could easily kill 2 measly haffling, had drawn out his wings, and started flying across the room at the rest of the party, cause our little wizard fired a fireball at him which did nothing cause the wizard is dumb and didnt realize, a half red dragon might NOT take to much damage from a fireball,... so He wasflying over, his hammer was beginning to crackle with energy and lightning arcs, he drew his arm back and was about to throw it at our party,... Then my warrior (yes, warrior), cast a dispell magic, which had about no chance in all of hell of even touching this baddy,... except for that the half dragon,.. rolled a 1 on his opposed dispel magic check. He threw his hammer, which promptly fell with a loud thud to the ground at our feet. A "frostball" (ice version of fireball) was cast at the half dragon JUST after the dispell hit, he had no magical saving throw protections. He rolled a 1 on his saving throw, and took full damage, 54. (108 points, double damaged) He failed his massive damage saving throw, was instantly frozen, fell 20ft to the ground, and shattered. Haffling #1 ran up, and backstabbed the balor with a natural 20, and scored a critical hit as well with the backstab, rolled almost a complete set of 4-6's on all of his d6's for his extra backstab damage,.. and then the balor was immediatly pummelled for the rest of his life by the earth elementals by the end of the round, exploded in a fiery explosion and went back to the hells. *is still shaking his head* 5 years,.... of torture, hoping to eventually find and try to defeat these guys,.. we run into them, there is no way that we could defeat them,... then in 3 rounds, the mighty blackguard is dead on the floor near naked with hafflings stripping his armor off, without ever getting 1 hit in on us. The mighty half/dragon duerger is dispelled, frozen and shattered because of rolling 1's on saving throws within 1 round,.. and the lvl 25 balor is pummeled to death by 2 earth elementals taht it had kept imprisoned. i,.. will never be able to stop thinking of how pathetic it had to look,.. to see a mighty blackguard of death and destruction,.. being stripped naked and thrown to the ground by 2 hafflings, tearing off his pants and arguing about who's going to keep what of his equipment, while he's trying to get up from the floor and having more and more of his equipment swiped off of him. I imagine he must have been crying. lol 5 years,.. for that mental picture. heh
Kilamar 10-19-03, 05:49 AM	Maybe next time you should try using the rules, but that would also mean that you all die. Kilamar
bushfire 10-19-03, 07:40 AM	Originally posted by Kilamar Maybe next time you should try using the rules, but that would also mean that you all die. Kilamar TheBlackLotus, ignore him. In five years while he may be able to quote the grapple rules from memory, you and your group will *still* have a great story to tell about how you took down the baddies :) Hi everyone, I just got home from gaming with my group, its 1:30am, and I just witnessed something, that will never leave my memory for the rest of my gaming life, that I want to share with all of you. I cant stop laughing. It is moments like this that make D&D games, not looking up rules. bushfire
Fieldketchun 10-19-03, 09:34 AM	Sounds like your DM just wanted to end the campaign. The Blackguard could have simply avoided the Overrun attack from the halfling. He also gets an attack of opportunity on the halfling. The other halfling is removing his breastplate, a Sunder attack (although you can not use Sunder on armor someone is wearing)? It takes one minute to remove, 30 seconds if someone friendly is helping. It is not simply just cutting a few straps. The disarm. Being prone gives the Blackguard a -4 on attacks, and he still gets an attack of opportunity on the halfling for the Disarm attempt. He is not helpless and can still take all of his attacks while prone. If the Blackguard hits with his attack of opportunity the disarm attempt is foiled. If he misses the attack he still has a +28 (not adding in any feat or magic bonuses) bonus on his attack vs the +9 for the rogue (due to size and light weapon (kick) attack for 11th level rogue). Looks like the rogue can not win even if he rolls a natural 20. The half-dragon must have been the subject of a targeted dispel magic. Since an area dispel will not affect magic items carried, a 20 lvl warior (not a fighter?) would probably not be casting spells. By the description the hammer was targeted, so any spells on the half-dragon are good to go, as well as any other magic items. A "1" on the save will not cause maximum damage. It just means the save failed and possibly one exposed item may be damaged. He would have to roll another "1" on his massive damage save to be killed by the spell due to his basic bonuses and good FORT save. The halfling backstab. Average 5 on die for 8d6 (16 lvl rogue) 40 points for backstab damage (this is not multiplied for critical hits), maximum weapon damage for +3 halfling rapier (1d4 17-20 x2) and 16 STR is 20 points, minus 15 DR (must be cold iron and good to get past) gives 45 points actual damage. That takes him from 290hp to 245hp. The elementals. Summon Monster is a Dismissable spell, if the Balor (or Blackguard?) cast it he can simply end the spell and send them back. If the Balor (or Blackguard?) did not summon the Elementals then his greater area dispel will get all summoned creatures in the area. At his level it should be no problem. If they do stay the Elementals can hit for 14 points per hit (after minus for DR) if max damage rolled. They have to roll a 17-20 on the die to even hit, so looks like one hit per round total (split between the 2 attacks each of the two creatures). If the Balor uses his (at will) Unholy Aura the Elementals can only hit on a crit (that makes it one hit every 2.5 rounds). Not much damage here.... So it looks like the DM just wanted to finish the campaign or is the kind that will not kill the player characters. There is a reason for the CR of creatures and your DM just ran these like some low CR monsters with no special abilities. That added with the lack of understanding of the basic rules of the game makes this sound more like the Storyteller system from Vampire the Masquerade than D&D. You should be mad at you DM for doing such a crappy, unprepared, and ultimately unfulfilling campaign ending session.
Raeke 10-19-03, 10:02 AM	I most certainly agree with bushfire. If people are too concerned over the 'rules and how the hell could this have worked', then that's just sad. The rules ARE meant to be broken, it's a game! :rolleyes: Anyways Lotus, that was quite possibly the funniest story I've heard all day, I was laughing so hard... :D
Cunning Linguist 10-19-03, 10:06 AM	bushfire is right, don't mind the Brian-wannabe's (from KotDT) if you had fun, then you played the game like it was supposed to be played.
Aurotuli 10-19-03, 12:46 PM	1) You are assuming the earth elementals were summoned. If I were a balor who wanted guards against potentially high level opponents, I would use a gate and some form of domination so they would not be removeable with a simple dismissal spell. Second, I would use as advanced an earth elemental as I could find and capture for guards. Likely the earth elementals were Advanced Elder Elementals. If advanced sufficiently they would easily have had more hp and a high enough attack to deal damage every round. Also realize that as their HD increase their AC increases (natural armor) and their Str (dmg dealt) also increase: the balor will eventually not be striking both of them every round while taking more damage itself. Furthermore, their will save is still so terribly low that the balor would have had little difficulty in enslaving them with some form of domination. 2) An area dispell might still have affected the hammer since it was being held when the dispell was cast. An area dispell placed in the area the half-dragon occupied would have less chance of success, but then the magic-user was described as less than competent. This was just a situation where either a) the magic-user did uncommonly well in his choice, or b) the magic-user didn't state which form he used and the DM defaulted to area affect. 3) Every campaign I've ever played in used house rules. In several there were no rolls to confirm criticals or fumbles, and in a few a fumble. Taking max damage when rolling a 1 on a reflex save to avoid damage is no worse than many other house rules I've seen. It's rather fair considering some take no damage (rather than half) when rolling succeeding their roll (and I've been in some campaigns where rolling 20 gave the same effect). 4) The campaign has been running for 5 years. They were likely using 3.0. As such, cold iron is not needed to harm a balor, and the halfling weapons dealt more damage than you stated. (Of course, this also means the DR was higher, but remember that also hold true for the Elementals.) All in all, I think this was just a case of the DM rolling poorly. I would guess the DM was intending a fight primarily with the Blackguard and half-dragon with the Balor watching in amusement and plane-shifting out if the other two fell (thus allowing the chance for extending the campaign, etc). It would have been a long and difficult fight just fighting the other two, but it could have been possible.
TheBlackLotus 10-19-03, 04:28 PM	The Blackguard could have simply avoided the Overrun attack from the halfling He could have,.. but if you were a lvl 21 blackguard, would you jump to the side as 2 pitiful hafflings tried to run up to you, or would you scoff at their petty attempt and stand your ground against two charging "children". He also gets an attack of opportunity on the halfling He missed, you must play in a very "magic-light" campaign. Even a high lvl fighter, can miss a much lower lvl charecter if the person behind the paper is rolling bad that night, our DM was rolling horrible. He also gets an attack of opportunity on the halfling. The other halfling is removing his breastplate, a Sunder attack (although you can not use Sunder on armor someone is wearing)? You run your rules how you want, we'll run ours how we want :) To us, trying to strip off someones armor ISNT a sunder attack, and shouldnt be. Ive been to enough ren fairs and seen enough armor being worn to know that there are straps, buckles, fasteners, leather ties, ect holding that armor in place. "WE" real life little first lvls couldnt do it,.. but perhaps, a lvl 16 thief in a FANTASY setting, might be able to do called shots take mass minus's, do slight of hand checks, and just through being that good with his rolls, starts unfastening the ties. Could happen. The disarm. Being prone gives the Blackguard a -4 on attacks, and he still gets an attack of opportunity on the halfling for the Disarm attemp My PHB might be different then yours,.. does yours have a feat called improved disarm in it? lol And try holding on to your sword when your prone on the ground, have someone attacking you on your back, and someone kicking at your hand 3 times in the round for about 15 points per kick, stomping on your hand. Cause he was prone, had no leverage, and other things that had been happening to him, he wasnt allowed his full str bonus to his opposed disarm check, having him recieve his full check in that situation with no minus's would make no sense. We adjust the set in stone rules, for different situations. a 20 lvl warior (not a fighter?) would probably not be casting spells. You must play in a very low magic world. heh. My warrior isnt lvl 20,.. he's lvl 10. lol Once per day, as ONE of the abilities of my armor, I can cast greater dispel, as the 20th lvl wizard that made my armor. The opposed dispel check ended up being,.. My dispel check: 57 Half dragons check: in the mid 20's. Once again,.. dm rolled low, he was having a bad night with his dice. He had every intention of wanting ot kill us. Also, with the matter of rolling a 1 for max damage on a failed save vs spell. Thats one of our house rules. 1 is the worst failure possable, you roll a 1, no excuses you take full damage, you roll a 20, you take no damage whatsoever, it works for the bad guys the same as it works for us. He would have to roll another "1" on his massive damage save to be killed by the spell due to his basic bonuses and good FORT save. I cant remember if it was ae or cast directly at him, it was very late and I was tired, but with a dispel check 30 over his,.. his arse got lit up into mundane bliss for the rest of that round. His saving throws were lowered accordinly, his enchantment bonus's to his stats were lowered, all he had left were his natural attacks and his wings which let him continue flying for that round. He rolled a 1 on his saving throw, and being a creature that is immune to fire (dm special half dragon, retained most of his dragon-side abilities), he was going to recieve double damage from the cold attack of 9d6,... which turned to maximum double damage. of 108. Like it or not, its our house rule, and it doesnt matter if you liek it, cause in circumstances like this, it saves our arse (has also been known to kill our arse as well) So,... go ahead and make that fort save with the 108damage hit, with no magical bonus's to your fort save. heh The dm still thought he had a chance at the saving throw,.. but failed it. Died from masive damage from the cold attack, deemed that it froze the half dragon in midflight, and he fell 20ft to the ground, suffering the additional 2d6 points of damage, and shattered. The halfling backstab. Average 5 on die for 8d6 (16 lvl rogue) 40 points for backstab damage (this is not multiplied for critical hits), maximum weapon damage for +3 halfling rapier (1d4 17-20 x2) and 16 STR is 20 points, minus 15 DR (must be cold iron and good to get past) gives 45 points actual damage. That takes him from 290hp to 245hp. You seem to forget,.. or rather, overlook, that we were prepared for this battle. Also, i bring up again that jeez, you must have a low magic world. +3 haffling rapier? Ick. He was using a +5 cold iron shortsword, that on a critical, drains 1d6 con from the target as well. This isnt an encountered that was an instant mission, we have been preparing with equipment for this. Haffling rapier against a balor? sweet jesus. He rolled a critical hit, rolled good damage for the backstab damage, and ALSO drained 6 points of conn from the balor, making it lose roughly,.. an additional 75hp's added onto that hit. (6 conn=3hp per level, of a 25th level creature = 75hp) So suddenly,.. that little dinky backstab with the teeny lil haffling poker you thought he was using is almost a 130 damage backstab, on a balor that you forget, has already been engaged by 2 very large earth elementals for a few rounds of combat. The next round, the haffling won innitiative, rolled another critical, non backstab, and drained ANOTHER 5 conn from the balor, Think the balor would stick around much longer, now that the entire party was about to converge on it, and its conn was getting sucked away from it. In 2 hits, it had almost 200 points of damage done to it by a pesky little haffling. So it looks like the DM just wanted to finish the campaign or is the kind that will not kill the player characters You must never have had a night where the dice didnt like you :) And for killing our charecters, we are convinced its his one true joy in life. Stop quoting the rules of how things cant happen, think about, hmmmm not every ounce of magic was listed, only the funny parts of the story, and just realize, it was a fun adventure, and everything that happened,.. did happen, and we had all the magic and good rolls that made it happen, the dm wanted to kill us,.. the dice just didnt work in his favor. There is no way we should have our charecters still alive. God bless the almighty "1". And lets get back to just laughing at all of this. Dang rule nazis. Dont start spouting off about things being impossable, if you still think that a lvl 16 rogue would be using a +3 rapier. God, thats just sick. lol
Tempus665 10-19-03, 04:56 PM	That´s what always happens...people ignoring the great story someone else is telling, and instead trying to evaluate it rules-wise. I envy you not, rules-lawyers. I, for one, loved BlackLotus´ story! :D :angel:
Fieldketchun 10-20-03, 01:34 AM	Tempus, you are correct it is a story. It is just sad that they did not get the chance to fight the three Evil NPC characters. Sounds more like they fought some CR 3 Dopplegangers. Hopefully they will get the chance to fight the real ones in the future, and have a much more enjoyable session.
Celtavian 10-20-03, 02:14 AM	Glad you had fun, but I'm with Kilamar on this one. I don't mind a little stretching of the rules to make the game more fun for the players. This was outright ignoring the rules and using carte blanche to decide a combat. The DM could just as easily have made the bad guys more reasonable rather than using the deus ex machina to help the players win. No one who uses even a semblance of the rules would have run this encounter against three powerful foes in this manner. The whole situation sounds wacky.
Yokinobu 10-20-03, 02:58 AM	Wait a minute, five years ago, there was no 3rd edition, was there? So unless the campaign was converted to 3rd edition, I guess a lot of the rules would have been different anyways.
ArthurQ 10-20-03, 03:25 AM	3 possiblities He ment 5 years game time He ment 5 years real time they are still playing 2e He ment 5 years real time they started 2e and are now playing 3e or 3.5e
Israfel666 10-20-03, 10:27 AM	Glad you had such an exciting (duru-dum) *final battle*. However... I'm not sure I understand this. You were up against a team of obviously superior foes, and by your own words would have surely died if not for some horribly DM's rolls combined with a couple of helpful house-rules (full damage on natural 1). Now, a DM usually doesn't expect his players to win only if he rolls very bad. He usually gives them a 50%+ chance of victory. That tells me that your DM probably planned it all along. Did he roll behind the screen? If so, I bet he's fudged more than one roll. If he didn't, either he proved a moron (by arranging you against impossible foes, and then letting luck ruining his plans) or he had something else in reserve to help you (NPC aid, miracles, the BBEGs turning on each other, etc.) which he didn't need to use thanks to your rolls.
TheBlackLotus 10-21-03, 03:07 AM	No screens. He rolls out in the open, so we can all see his rolls. We started in 2nd edition, converted to 3e like all the rest of ya, then to 3.5 like the rest of you. 50% win/lose chance? Not with this guy,.. He is natorious for making us go mission after mission towards something,... then killing us all as we are about to finish our quest, or let us finish but throw us on yet another plot twist, and have every posession we have ever attained be taken from us. Like i said,.. he seems to take joy in it. We are very house rules heavy with combat. Most of us are matial arts teachers of different styles, ren fair participants, stuff like that. So we change things depending on the occasion,.. if something would happen in real combat, then that person takes the minus's we see appropriate. Alot of the combat mechanics are just poorly done. Weapon finesse as the primary example. (thats a different story *shudders*) Anyways, nope,.. those werent dopplegangers or anything of the sort (unfortunately,.. cause I really wish they were). Its over,.. all of it. *shrugs* as far as the CR being a zillion times higher then we could possably take? This is the same guy that makes our 4th lvl's face a 20th level lich, and deathknight, ,... and we have no magic, cause the death of our charecters will be "good for the story". We get put into constant situations where, there really is nothing we can do. And the only way out of it, is the pure luck of rolls. You think the three lvl 20+ npc's one of them being a balor is bad against a few 10th lvl charecters? You should see what he throws at our high teens charecters. lol We game in a state of constant paranoia,.. and this one "small" victory, even if only due to bad rolling by the dm where we could all see his rolls, is one of those rare occasions, where he didnt manage to kill off all our charecters to further his story, even though it was his full intent to slaughter us. Enjoy the story, and just relish in the fact, that yet another over powering dm,.. wasnt able to kill off his entire gaming group as planned, BECAUSE he didnt fudge rolls. We all roll in the open, DM included, and he cant change his rolls no matter how insane the results are. Sheeesh. And please let me know which parts you all are having an insane time excepting so I can further explain why things were able to take place.
Gadodel 10-21-03, 04:15 AM	Only 1:30 AM? I've heard of lazy, but I mean really...:rolleyes: Some of us can go far beyond that hour...:mad: Just kidding...laffs. Big, huge battles and the talk about them; is what the game is all about...:cool:
Israfel666 10-21-03, 09:07 AM	Ok, but if your DM is such a player-killer, how did your current characters survive for 5 years?
TheBlackLotus 10-21-03, 11:12 AM	These are "every now and then" charecters. We have tons of charecters, that we use depending on the adventure, we dont always do the same campaign with the same pc's every week. Sometimes he feels like high lvls, sometimes he's on a low lvl kick. And sometimes, you can go months without using the same charecters or continuing a past campaign. The only charecter Ive had for a continuous basis that isnt dead, is my 19th lvl monk, and he's the only charecter that has never been killed by the DM yet in 9 years, of ANY of our charecters. heh Been in hand to hand with the avatar's of bane and myrkul at the same time at lvl 16 before? lol pc killing obsessed dm. cause, it'll "further the story for your charecter to die"
Morgrym 10-21-03, 01:04 PM	Theblacklotus it was a great paraphrase of an obviously enjoyable night. I too have had similar occasions. Being the DM I have tried to make an adventure very challenging DIE VECNA DIE converted to 3.0, with level 15 - 19 characters. We all still talk about it. Sometimes the rolls will just end in favor. I had my party split up on two sides of a portal. 5 member on an open arctic Tundra with a very PO'd ancient white wyrm one of the powerful mages f the group was a frost specialist and was basically uselles except as a morsal. needless to say they were on the ropes and the other mage cast a spell on the fly. Not only did the dragon botch his SR but he also botched his Fort save ( we did the optional 1 = -10 to the save roll) Dice can be the bane or salvation of an adventure. My friends still talk about it occasionally along with other oddities that occured in that adventure. PLot and story is very important. We try to have few house rules and if we do we discusss them and why before a campaign begins. COngrats and a wonderful story, i was visualizing 2 halfings climbing and pummeling a blackguard who I imagined weeping at the beating he was taking.
homer4veep 10-21-03, 06:56 PM	AWESOME STORY. I think we have all had nights like that one. Hey sometimes the dice are with ya, and other times against. Some people just need to think outside the box. This is make-believe after all.
Klyden 10-21-03, 07:56 PM	While your story is funny to no end it also shows your DM does not possess a good handle for the current 3.5 Combat Rules. As for your DM killing off your players with Mega Uber Enemies that you have no chance of taking on let alone scratching at the end of your campaigns...well...I'll just say that I would have had the group vote him off or had the group find another DM after the first time he would have done that to me or my group... You'll have to forgive me...I have a real problem with those types of DM's. The first time I played with one of those guys it was a 12th Level Campaign...all of us had just gotten to 14th Level and we were expecting to face enemies we COULD beat...he put us up against a Female Great Wyrm Red Dragon...I left the game and went home seconds after he said what we where facing! He called me and said WTF...to which I promptly asked him how in lord Ao's shinny divine ass were we...a group of 14th Level Beings...supposed to defeat a 23rd Challenge Rating monster, which could kill all of us in a single round! His reply was related directly to his poor DM skills. He said my party would have survived if I hadn't left...he blamed the party's defeat on me! I then told him that he was the type of DM who loved killing off his PCs and that he should shove his dice up his...well...I won't go that far...needless to say...he hung up... Later I found out that this wasn't the first time he had done this, which meant he lied to all of us PC's when we specifically asked him, "do you make it a habit of killing off your PC's in your campaigns (which he said no too)! Still...your story is funny. Improbable and impossible for it to happen in a properly DM'ed Dungeons & Dragons 3.5 Edition game...but funny none the less.
magekiller 10-22-03, 05:24 PM	If there is one thing that I hate, it is 'Rule Laywers." Excellent story and I feel your pain about your DM.
homer4veep 10-22-03, 10:49 PM	Next time your DM pulls that crap, tell him to: 'cram it with walnuts, ugly' - simpson quote
Adrian Moonbow 10-23-03, 02:39 AM	Great story!:cool: I can't wait to tell it to my own group tonight. These situations are why we play this game! My DM is not THAT homicidal, but will still use everything we say against us. Happy gaming and please share more of those wonderful stories. (I might tell one myself tomorrow!);)
Teluvor 10-23-03, 05:36 AM	As for the DM part "fudging the dice"... I've been a 2nd ed DM of the first hour, and any DM who tells me he hasn't had a night where every last die he/she rolls land up showing ones or twos, probably uses weighted dice. :twitch: I'm a very rules-heavy DM, always have been, and I was rolling on the floor reading your story, TheBlackLotus, because it was so bloody convincing! Now I don't want to re-energize this "that's not within the rules" discussion, because almost every group I know has house rules. I'm not a killer DM myself, but have been player with one of those on several occasions. ("Whaddaya mean, backstabbed? I was sitting in a chair with the back against a wall!?!?") :confused: You just know you're going to die anyway, so you make the best of it. And every once in a while, the whole plot just explodes in the DM's face. :smirk: I know it has happened to me on occasion. :eek: A party of 2nd level (2nd ed) characters facing off against a double war party of hobgoblins, (we used a house rule comparable to greater cleave if you rolled 5 point over your "to hit") A Bad initiative roll, some lousy attack rolls and some downright amazing attack rolls on my players part later, they had hewn through 4 to 1 odds in 3 combat rounds time. These same characters, now updates to 3.5, are still around, but when fire-side tales are told of their deeds, the one thing it always boils down to is: "We once slaughtered 20 hobgoblins in 18 seconds!" So you had fun, you have some tale worth telling, one that even gets the role-playing community moving :bow: to you!... I can just see that high-and-mighty blackguard rolling on the floor, two halflings hanging on to him, stabbing, cutting armor straps, etc., screaming "Get them off me!!! Somebody please get them off !!!!! :rofl:
CaffeineGenasi 10-23-03, 05:48 AM	The story sounds funny, but there are holes. Ones that a person doesn't even have to be a "rules lawyer" to see. I can see a blackguard getting taken out by two nasty halflings. If he doesn't have anything special beyond "scary combat prowess" I am not all that familiar with blackguards, so I am not sure if they get special magic type abilities. If so, he should have used some. It's too late for me to go dig out my Monster Manual to check 3e, but I know in 2e balors could summon other demons, like...out the wazoo. Shouldn't there have been lots of other demons ther as soon as he felt like he needed the assist? Was whatever the balor did to the elementals a one time only thing? If two huge elementals I had summoned (or gated in and dominated) were getting medeival on my ass, I would summon more, that were NOT "somehow freed" by tresspassers. Then let the elementals all have a little free for all, free vs. bound while I take out the autistic wizard and his buddies. The story sounds great. If you had lots of fun, I have no problem with it. I am not going to take away your D & D membership card. I am curious why you would still play with such a DM, though. Is he the only one who would run? There is no way such a game would go on for so long around here, but we are DM heavy, if we don't like one, we'll get someone else to run. Many a campaign has died such a death, either from killing too many PCs, or being soo sissy and never killing PCs. Oh, and per Monster Manual, since duergar don't have wings, the half red duergar shouldn't either. But I vaguely recall hearing there is a feat somewhere in a FR book that lets it be possible. So, no biggie.
n0x 10-23-03, 05:48 PM	Well if that makes your group laugh and have a good time, then by all means. But... That would never, ever, happen in my group. As a DM I like my end battles to be crazy, suicidal, holywood-like death fests (like your's was beginning to sound like). However, that pitiful fight makes the main villians sound both pathetic and lame. If I was one of the player's I would fire that DM... or do something. Five years is too long to have a retarded fight like that. Which brings me to my point, halflings suck and in my campaign they would've been slaughtered by the Blackguard.
Desies 10-23-03, 11:03 PM	Look at it like this, a game with rules that should have exceptions that is set in a fantasy period is going to have things like this. The books are just guidelines, it's a combination of those guidelines with what the DM will allow and house rules. It doesn't seem like anything that happened to you seems too unreasonable. True a normal run of the mill person may be unable to do this but with a lot of luck combined with the mad skill of a level 16 character could make it possible. It's all up to the almighty dice gods. Oh yeah and where did fieldketchun come up with that +3 Halfling Rapier stat? At level 16? Come on dude!
Harlamond 10-23-03, 11:21 PM	Originally posted by n0x Which brings me to my point, halflings suck and in my campaign they would've been slaughtered by the Blackguard. :rofl: Hey! But at least they weren’t Bard’s.
baerdith 10-25-03, 02:02 PM	Originally posted by Harlamond :rofl: Hey! But at least they weren’t Bard’s. oooh, ya just HAD ta insult bards dincha??
Harlamond 10-25-03, 08:24 PM	Originally posted by baerdith oooh, ya just HAD ta insult bards dincha?? Sorry about that one, I just found it to hard to resist. ;)
WraithXIII 10-25-03, 10:58 PM	Originally posted by Kilamar Maybe next time you should try using the rules, but that would also mean that you all die. Kilamar A five year game, with characters who aren't even level 20, and you think they couldn't have possibly used the rules? Man, that is pathetic, this is why I do not go to Cons, because the rules are emphasized more than just having fun. Besides, what is to say that COULDN'T have happened? Personally, I would have loved to been in on this group. This is a group that knows how to balance the rules and the story. The rulebooks themselves even say to discard the rules if it interferes with the story. Sounds like to me the bad guys had a bad day. There is such a thing as critical failures, and such a thing as overwhelming successes in this game. All I can say is, play on, gamers, sounds like a blast!
WraithXIII 10-25-03, 11:07 PM	Originally posted by Celtavian Glad you had fun, but I'm with Kilamar on this one. I don't mind a little stretching of the rules to make the game more fun for the players. This was outright ignoring the rules and using carte blanche to decide a combat. The DM could just as easily have made the bad guys more reasonable rather than using the deus ex machina to help the players win. No one who uses even a semblance of the rules would have run this encounter against three powerful foes in this manner. Ignoring the rest of this obviously sad poke at fun, just where was the "god in the machine"? Not like Mystra hopped on down and wacked those baddies.
Cherrn 10-25-03, 11:13 PM	Originally posted by WraithXIII Ignoring the rest of this obviously sad poke at fun, just where was the "god in the machine"? Not like Mystra hopped on down and wacked those baddies. To some of us it seems as if the DM did a pretty good job wacking those baddies himself.
Kilamar 10-26-03, 05:11 AM	Originally posted by WraithXIII ...this is why I do not go to Cons, because the rules are emphasized more than just having fun. !... I do not like Cons either for certain reasons, but you have to consider this: People with different playing styles, different expectations, different houserules come together to play. The only way to make this work is a common baseline. This baseline are the D&D rules. You cannot play with people from different backrounds and cater to their respectives views of the game, you have to compromise. This board works in a similar way. It´s an D&D board and people expect to talk about D&D. If someone bends the rules a bit, fine. Most of us have their own houserules so some differences are anticipated. But the given story does not include some minor quirks, it shows an absence of D&D in a large part. That is ok if you use a completely different system like diceless roleplaying. But he gave us an overview of the opposition and the capabilities of his group in D&D rules, therefore we have certain expectations on the outcome. If some people find it ok when Bilbo Beutlin goes toe to toe against Sauron and wins, fine. I just think it is a bit strange. Kilamar
Ozar 10-27-03, 12:55 PM	Originally posted by Klyden *snip story about super evil DM* Oh man.. that's.. just.. wrong. I would keep my sheet and just pretend the DM never existed.
Ozar 10-27-03, 11:44 PM	Originally posted by Kacesen_Black Anything you can do, i can quit better *Chuckle*
Desies 10-28-03, 12:37 AM	You tell em Kacesen...(you still owe me $40!!) I think I just deleted the post this refers to - BigSister
Celtavian 10-28-03, 02:12 AM	Originally posted by WraithXIII Ignoring the rest of this obviously sad poke at fun, just where was the "god in the machine"? Not like Mystra hopped on down and wacked those baddies. The "god in the machine" was the two huge earth elementals and the DM obviously misplaying three very powerful, supremely intelligent adversaries. A good DM would have made the adversaries challenging, but not impossible so that they would have had a "real" fight. Sad poke at fun? I'm sorry. I don't think it is fun to have the DM win the final battle for me, which is the case here. Or is that how you would play three such formidable enemies? If it is, then I can ignore your obviously sad attempt at making a game both challenging and fun. You see, I don't like to leave out the challenging part, and I still definitely make sure to include the fun. Glad you don't show up at cons. You sound like the kind of person that has turned gaming into a storytelling session with your friends. If that is the case, why do you even bother to buy any gaming books? I know if I was going to tell stories with friends, I would just do it and not waste the money.
Darkmistress 10-28-03, 02:42 AM	Originally posted by Kacesen_Black Post now deleted How wonderfully eloquent and mature of you. Please. Are you just trying to get a WizO to close down this thread, or what?
Teluvor 10-28-03, 10:57 AM	Originally posted by Celtavian Or is that how you would play three such formidable enemies? If it is, then I can ignore your obviously sad attempt at making a game both challenging and fun. You see, I don't like to leave out the challenging part, and I still definitely make sure to include the fun. While i agree with you on the "challenging fun"part, I do wonder why any sane DM would create an encounter with "villains" of this magnitude (I mean, the combined encounter level must reach way into epic levels) and present them as "enemies" to a 17th level party. This entire story has the ring of "incompetent killer DM". As such, they had a good time against impossible odds. Completely by the book, they wouldn't have had a chance... And they shouldn't have been put in this kind of situation in the first place. Enjoy the story as what it is: an innately flawed DM finally on the receiving end of his own incompetence... try to mentally picture the entire situation (as I did) and try not to think on the exact rules overmuch. This is just a great story...
Teluvor 10-28-03, 11:00 AM	useless because of deletion of post replied to - and glad of that, too
Teluvor 10-28-03, 11:29 AM	Sigh... Last warning here. I like this thread for the great story and for the interesting discussion "rules+fun" vs "fun over rules", but I'm not sitting around listening to this kind of language. Clean up your acts, guys, otherwise this thread is going down.:mad:
WizO_BigSister 10-28-03, 07:09 PM	Right people, it seems it is time to remind you of some of the rules you agreed to follow when you joined these boards. No obscene words; no use of alternate spelling, spaces or ***s to get past the word filter; no direct attacks on any member. It is OK to attack the content of a members post. It is NOT OK to attack the person who made the post. The best way to deal with a troll is to ignore him or her and possibly report the most to the WizOs. It is not a good idea to repeat the offensive material in a quote. I have gone through this thread with my pruning shears, and removed offensive material. As there is a good discussion about rules vs story happening between the fames I see no reason to punish those who aren't breaking the CoC by deleting the entire thread. However ... BEHAVE YOURSELVES!
Darth K'Trava 10-28-03, 07:35 PM	When they got to the half dragon and blackguard (we expected them to die instantly), one rogue at a full sprint dove at his legs, knocking him prone, the other haffling started kicking at his hand until he let go of his sword, then kicked it away while the 21st lvl blackgaurd was prone on the ground. As he tried getting up, haffling #1 did a super high skill check and started unbuckling the blackguards breastplate whiel he was trying to get up. The blackguard was trying to throw the haffling off of his back, and get up from the ground, he managed to get to one knee while still managing to try to throw Haffling #1 off of his back, and punch Haffling #2, but missed. At the same time that he missed, Haffling #1 got his breastplate unbuckled, and right as the blackguard was standing up from a kneeling position, his breastplate swung forward and through him off balance, he failed his check and fell back onto the floor, prone, with Haffling #1 starting to stab him in the back, Haffling #2 ran up and started Slicing at the straps on the blackguards greaves. The blackguard who was prone on the ground, now having his breastplate taken off, and having a haffling tearing his pants off, tried to get up off of the ground again, but with armor half hanging on him, a haffling giving the piggy back ride from hell, and Haffling #2 pulling at his legs, he falls to the ground again, rolls over onto his back, and has his greaves pulled down around his legs just as he dies, half naked, with no weapons, and having not done a single thing in combat. That was funny! I could just imagine the epic blackguard being stripped by a couple of "puny" halflings..... :rofl:
Chamber 10-28-03, 07:46 PM	look, foolish fools of foolery and the like...it is simple..it all comes down to numbers...6 vs. 3? even if they are all half thier power it equals up to more atacks and spells per round...try giving em henchmen..they'll go a long way to beat the living heck outa the pcs...im telling ya..add ten orcs to that encounter and you end up with a doubly hard battle...what with atacks of opportunity and all...plus my way makes them advance slower with harder battles to get there...(i recently nearly killed my pcs with umberhulks, but they survived just barely)its all about instinctively knowing exactly how much your pcs can take. unless you strait up wanna kill em..muhahaha!...sorry -Chamber:smirk: :b:
Darkmistress 10-28-03, 11:36 PM	it is simple..it all comes down to numbers...6 vs. 3? I am sure. Let us, then, send an army of twenty level 1 commoner against an adult red dragon. 20 vs. 1 -- no-brainer, right?
shmeg 10-29-03, 04:31 AM	Funny story, laughed a great deal, angry at a bad DM, wished the fight would have taken longer and cost you guys a little more to win. Ok, here's my thing: I'm usually the DM/GM/ST/Ref for my group, I just like doing it and the ppl I been playing with for the last 3 years seem to like my style. Here's my biggest secret: I'm on the side of the PCs. I will do just about everything in my power to make sure they have a decent chance of winning if they're smart about it. In that spirit I have NEVER had a TPK. If I did I would have failed as a DM. I'm here to make the game fun for the players, not to defeat them, not to lord my ingeniousness over them after trouncing them with evilly build monsters of utter doom! That's not to say I'm a push over, far from it. You act dumb in my games you die, simple as that. This is training folks, be better and you will be rewarded, trust to the dice at your own paril. I am happiest when the players outwit me, shows they got promise cause it happens so seldom :smirk: About rolling dice in front of players: What the bloody...?!?!? This is perhaps the most wacked idea I have ever heard. How can you maintain the illusion that you're conjuring a story of adventure when you blatently admit that you trust entirely to luck to make the game fun. To heck with that. It's not cheating if the players have fun. Ok, here's how I would have designed that encounter (forget rules, I'm with the made to be broken crowd). First off each should be about 5 levels over the PCs. This is right for BBEG in D&D that you can prep for, no prep keep it within 2-3 levels. Now arrange it so the players think they have to fight them on home turf, full strength, with full prep. Arrange it so the PCs catch wind of their defenses somehow, doesn't matter how, get creative with henchmen if you like, let em in on the chance of freeing those earth elementals (I liked that bit). Listen to their plots and plans, give em subtle hints but make it seem to be their idea, then arrange it so their plan will work...at least for the most part (something HAS TO GO WRONG, it ain't really fun if things work perfectly). Make damn sure they don't have to fight them all at once, maybe set em up so that one has to deal with the rampaging elementals while the other 2 have to deal with the PCs. That alone can be an advantage if the PCs are smart enough to get a diversion going. After that let the dice fall where they may but make sure the enemies have weaknesses that the PCs know about and if they don't have the luckiest rolls have the BBEG make a couple of blunders here and there (or at least give the PCs an opening that a cleaver player would spot). The final confrontation should take several rounds, swing between both sides AT LEAST TWICE, and finally land on the side of the PCs at the most climactic moment possible. In a party of 6 at least 2 of the PCs should be dead (if they were dumb) or near death (if they were just unlucky) and the rest should be banged up a bit. Sound like a lot of fudging on the dice? yer right, it's the only way to go to keep the action up, the tentions high, and the story firmly in your control. Yer the DM, not only are you god, you give all the other gods their powers :behold:
Israfel666 10-29-03, 11:30 AM	:bow: Couldn't agree more, shmeg. You have just stated the same guidelines I myself use when mastering a game.
Teluvor 10-29-03, 01:10 PM	Ahhhh... glad to hear my own opinions voiced so eloquently. Thumbs up Shmeg! You're the kind of DM I'd like to be a player with.:ayyyy!:
baerdith 11-01-03, 03:26 PM	Originally posted by Darkmistress I am sure. Let us, then, send an army of twenty level 1 commoner against an adult red dragon. 20 vs. 1 -- no-brainer, right? I've actually done that before. But it was 100 1st level fighters. I think 10 of them survived, but they were 10th level at the end of it though.:looloo:
Ozar 11-01-03, 08:52 PM	How? You can only go up one level per combat.
baerdith 11-02-03, 03:52 PM	Originally posted by Ozar How? You can only go up one level per combat. 1st Ed. They also got xp for the treasure.
Desies 11-03-03, 12:43 AM	yeah you could go up 20 levels a combat if you were weak enough and the monster strong enough...highly unlikely however!
Aiden2 11-03-03, 07:47 PM	I think that what this overlong, drawn out argument gets summarized down to is this: There's a time for being a rules nazi, and a time for fun. It just so happens that at Black Lotus' session, 1:30 am was not a time for being a rules nazi. BTW, great story Black Lotus, and thank the halflings for, well, acting very...halfling-like...:thumbsup: Signing Out, :turkey: