Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pajmage 07-11-03, 10:54 AM	Its strange, El taught Vangerdahast yet they (or at least Vangerdahast) dont seem to like one another. Nor do some of the chosen like Vangerdahast either. Anyone know why?
Masakado 07-11-03, 11:14 AM	Originally posted by Pajmage Its strange, El taught Vangerdahast yet they (or at least Vangerdahast) dont seem to like one another. Nor do some of the chosen like Vangerdahast either. Anyone know why? Vangy seemed to fall out with Elminster over the proverbial "political differences." Elminsters ties to the Harpers & Vangy's role in Comyrian government seemed to clash. I'd suspect that's where most of the imagined bad blood between some of Mystra's Chosen & Vangy lies also, as most of them have ties to the Harpers. It's not odd that they don't get along though, as there's no fast rule that says that the good guys have to like one another. Khelben even had a falling out with his fellow Chosen (as did Laeral with her sisters) after the whole Harper schism that ended with the creation of Khelben's Moonstars.
pandionpdg 07-11-03, 11:24 AM	How does Vangey's official departure from his role in the Cormyr government now change his relationship with the Chosen?
Maskanodel 07-11-03, 11:26 AM	On a sidenote, didn't Elminster help train Vangerdahast? Maybe they had a falling out over teaching methods or the such.
Pajmage 07-11-03, 11:30 AM	Yep El trained Vangy. Actually, after having flicked through El in Hell a bit I think the disagreement comes from Vangy's time as El's pupil and the deal with the Harpers and Cormyr. Deep down they are still fond of each other, evidenced at the end of El in Hell when Mystra brings them all to the Simbuls throne room for a battle Royale with Geryons Demons and the SHarran Magi. Its probably nothing more than Senility and grumpines :P
Purple Dragon Knight 07-11-03, 11:34 AM	Vangy has also been in the service of a non-wizard King for the best part of his life. He has had the willpower to serve under, shall I say, less knowledgeable/intelligent masters, the Obarskyrs. Traditions, respect, authority are integral part of his life, whereas people like Elminster have gone through their lives as free men doing the best they could to deal directly with high-powered "evil" factions/monsters. Often, the "bravery" of Elminster's kind did not give a thought about the consequences on the common folk and on the nations in which they were operating. Vangy is a man of wisdom in the sense that he recognizes that magic should only be used if no other options are left. He is constantly devising ways in which the non-spellcasting common folk can get out of tough situations. Elminster and friends are sticking magic in every aspects of their lives, from pipe smoking to travel... Vangy can actually be seen huffing and puffing once in a while (riding his horse, climbing stairs, doing exercise), especially since the Crusades against the Tuigan, which made him realize that it is risky to rely on longevity potions to stay healthy... In short, Elminster is the James Bond (or the Austin Power!) of the Realms, whereas Vangy would the head of the CIA...
Gadodel 07-11-03, 07:24 PM	IMC, the quarrel between El and Vangy is actually coincidence. Many Royals have come and gone in Cormyr: not a one of them really cared for Elminster. They saw him as a dilletante and trouble maker for true leaders. They also think of him as a bit of a hypocrite. Afterall, Elminster should be a King of his own Realm. Though, he let his realm fall rather than using his powers to preserve it. Truly the act of an anti-royal. So, now there is a huge area of wild, dangerous lands to Cormyr's west. Vangy being loyal to Azoun, merely adopted his Lord's attitude towards Elminster..and by association The Chosen.
Psionycx 07-11-03, 10:25 PM	It's a simple Law versus Chaos dispute, compounded by nationalism. Vangey believes in strict Lawful Neutrality, a social order and rule of Law. Chaotic types like Elminster, the Simbul and even Storm tend to flit around doing whatever they think is best with little regard for authority, sovereignty or such. It drives Vangey NUTS! Add to that the fact that Vangey's personal mandate is to protect and preserve Cormyr, whereas the Chosen are involved in more of a "big picture" agenda that may or may not benefit Cormyr at any given moment. The same goes for the Harpers really. They're not *hostile* to Cormyr, and definitely have no desire to see it fall. But they also don't want it to grow overly powerful so that it's interests dominate the surrounding lands. Vangey respects his old teacher and the other Chosen for who they are and what they've accomplished. But he doesn't always agree with their methods or their motivations.
Gadodel 07-11-03, 10:41 PM	Well, that too; I just made it more "personal"...in that their differences are quite deep. IMC, Cormyr is the one place a lot of groups have problems operating in.
Suu'thien Fethomir 07-12-03, 02:22 AM	I personally am very fond of Vangerdahast, and really wouldn't mind reading about him more. I think he's one the most interesting and lovable characters in FR canon. I always imagined him as the slavemaster from Gladiator, who died after the filming from alcohol abuse and a bad heart.
Sirius_Black 07-12-03, 02:01 PM	Originally posted by Suu'thien Fethomir I personally am very fond of Vangerdahast, and really wouldn't mind reading about him more. I think he's one the most interesting and lovable characters in FR canon. I always imagined him as the slavemaster from Gladiator, who died after the filming from alcohol abuse and a bad heart. Not a bad image of Vangerdahast. Additionally, Oliver Reed, the actor you spoke of died in Malta while still filming The Gladiator although most of his scenes had already been shot.
Thrudjelmer 07-12-03, 02:43 PM	I think the law vs. chaos outlook has some merit when examining the relationship between Elminster and Vangerdahast, though not as a strict alignment issue. From Elminster's perspective, Vangey is probably too stiff and unable to enjoy life the way Mystra intended it, using his magic guided by rules and regulations tied into the governent. From Vangerdahast's perspective, Elminster is probably a loose cannon who does not conduct himself as a "true wizard" should. "True wizard," in this case, being defined as the bookish type who maintains an air of dignity and respectability... a pair of traits Elminster can act if he so chooses, but more often than not chooses not to.
Psionycx 07-12-03, 09:24 PM	Well Vangey dislikes disorder or random elements. This is why adventurers, and especially wizards, need all kinds of certification in Cormyr. Vangey's not a control freak, he just likes to minimize the number of loose cannons running around his tidy little nation. The Chosen are the *ultimate* loose cannons. Elminster doesn't hesitate to meddle whenever he feels a need to do so. He also doesn't hesitate to ignore the social niceties when he feels a need to. While Vangey respects the gods, especially Mystra, I think he'd prefer that they consulted with him before undertaking any divine initiatives that might impact Cormyr. Having the Simbul or Elminster go tearing through his turf on one of their little escapades against whatever they're opposed to this week is probably highly vexing to him.
Sarelle 07-13-03, 07:06 AM	Just wondering does Vangerdahast worship Azuth then, him being concerned with the rules and regulations of the Weave. Or does he worship LN Mystra, or NG Mystra?
Thrudjelmer 07-13-03, 10:59 AM	I'm not sure... but I wish the writers would clue us in on the religions of NPCs more often. As it is, we generally don't know what religion an NPC is unless its a cleric, paladin, or druid... and occasionally rangers and blackguards.
Delix Kad 11-20-05, 09:58 AM	According to the "History of the Archclericy" Iuz was corrupting old Vangy in 1352 DR, and Vangy began planning the Second Cormyrean War. Needless to say, Elminster would probably "know" this, and perhaps spread this info to the other Chosen. Scratch one friendly relationship.
Gendar Manyspell 11-20-05, 11:10 AM	Afterall, Elminster should be a King of his own Realm. Though, he let his realm fall rather than using his powers to preserve it. Truly the act of an anti-royal. So, now there is a huge area of wild, dangerous lands to Cormyr's west. Actually Elminster didn't let his kingdom fall. Mystra actually kept him busy in other parts of the Realms so he wouldn't interfere with the natural order of events.
Silverpanther 11-20-05, 11:37 AM	okay, you all got me curious about the last royal wizard of cormyr. where can i read something about him, where find his stats? (why do i got the feeling that you will tell me heroes lorebook...)
Delix Kad 11-20-05, 11:57 AM	You might want to pick up "Cormyr: A novel" to get the general feel of whom he is/how he thinks, plus to get a whole load of background on him. For stats try this link: http://boards1.wizards.com/archive/index.php/t-188011.html
BrianCritchley 11-20-05, 08:13 PM	According to the "History of the Archclericy" Iuz was corrupting old Vangy in 1352 DR, and Vangy began planning the Second Cormyrean War. Needless to say, Elminster would probably "know" this, and perhaps spread this info to the other Chosen. Scratch one friendly relationship. where's this come from?!
Delix Kad 11-21-05, 04:54 AM	It’s from some unofficial game-material (shame on me!) that tried to take into consideration how Cormyr would be affected if the Temple of Elemental Evil had been placed not far from Suzail, and how Iuz would affect the major characters. This derived from the fact that ToEE itself did not come with any tips on where to place the Temple in FR. So…. this is not official.
createvmind 11-21-05, 06:13 PM	Vangy has also been in the service of a non-wizard King for the best part of his life. He has had the willpower to serve under, shall I say, less knowledgeable/intelligent masters, the Obarskyrs. Traditions, respect, authority are integral part of his life, whereas people like Elminster have gone through their lives as free men doing the best they could to deal directly with high-powered "evil" factions/monsters. Often, the "bravery" of Elminster's kind did not give a thought about the consequences on the common folk and on the nations in which they were operating. Vangy is a man of wisdom in the sense that he recognizes that magic should only be used if no other options are left. He is constantly devising ways in which the non-spellcasting common folk can get out of tough situations. Elminster and friends are sticking magic in every aspects of their lives, from pipe smoking to travel... Vangy can actually be seen huffing and puffing once in a while (riding his horse, climbing stairs, doing exercise), especially since the Crusades against the Tuigan, which made him realize that it is risky to rely on longevity potions to stay healthy... In short, Elminster is the James Bond (or the Austin Power!) of the Realms, whereas Vangy would the head of the CIA... You a sage but you got EL all wrong on this one, he has made do without magic quite a number of times in his life and has preached that magic doesn't solve everything. His first confrontation with the Simbul was over how she used magic and the damage it caused, Elminster knows the dangers of magic more than Vangy and if anything has stepped back while Vangy and his fellow chosen have wielded magic in ways EL didn't approve of. Vangy is for the kingdom of Cormyr first and foremost and his "line" has done many things that El has frowned upon in the name of Corymr's continuation. Vangy doesn't like that fact that EL is more powerful and wiser and has a habit of rubbing it in and ignoring their threats as he has done quite often even with Halaster as well IN Undermountain. If anything, Vangy is the more apt to do something using magic that may affect other kingdoms and/or races in the name of protecting Corymr, such as recently attempting to enslave dragons to serve as Corymr's protectors wetehr they want to or not.
BrianCritchley 11-21-05, 07:46 PM	You a sage but you got EL all wrong on this one, he has made do without magic quite a number of times in his life and has preached that magic doesn't solve everything. His first confrontation with the Simbul was over how she used magic and the damage it caused, Elminster knows the dangers of magic more than Vangy and if anything has stepped back while Vangy and his fellow chosen have wielded magic in ways EL didn't approve of. Vangy is for the kingdom of Cormyr first and foremost and his "line" has done many things that El has frowned upon in the name of Corymr's continuation. Vangy doesn't like that fact that EL is more powerful and wiser and has a habit of rubbing it in and ignoring their threats as he has done quite often even with Halaster as well IN Undermountain. If anything, Vangy is the more apt to do something using magic that may affect other kingdoms and/or races in the name of protecting Corymr, such as recently attempting to enslave dragons to serve as Corymr's protectors wetehr they want to or not. aye you'll note that vangy and eliminister's last encounter was over Vangy using magic in a rather foolish manner. sadly it will likely be Vangy's LAST apperance in the realms :(
Tobus Neth 11-21-05, 08:36 PM	Didn't they have a homosexual affair?
Kuje31 11-21-05, 08:43 PM	Didn't they have a homosexual affair? Cough. :) I think you're thinking of Lhaeo and Elminster, which Lhaeo acted like he was El's lisping manservant.